Succession Mafia (OVER!)

[xvart]

Hello everyone. Happy hunting.

Seraphim - already backpedaling on your vezok read or changing your story due to some pressure? First, he's anti-town/scummy, then he's probably town, then he could be scum, then he can't be read, then his general play is simply lynch worthy.

Don't be so quick to dismiss him as town even if he probably is. Let him claim before loudly declaring him town.

Are you asking him to claim to prove himself to be town? And you still are suggesting that he is probably town.

Also, why has your read changed so much? Since you declared him probable town he has had two posts (one stating the game in question and the second stating he doesn't care about player lists and doesn't have grudges). What in those two posts made him not probable town anymore?

Aim: Seraphim

xvart.

[xvart]

First of all, wtf 8 pages of posts since this morning. I briefly scanned the pissing match of who is VI and who is not VI, who is better at mafia than whom; but now am going back to read more closely but I hope to god every eventually puts their dicks back in their pants and puts the tape measure away.

Animorph's 74 and Furclow's 77 strike me as very opportunistic, being that after asking to be replaced goes ahead and votes under the pretext of "we all want to know." Odds are the Seraphim wagon will disintegrate after asking for replacement.

Prozac's 75 - I couldn't agree more. I also have to say that I enjoy playing with vezok. Sure he's frustrating sometimes but I really enjoy vastly different play styles as it adds another element to the game.

Furclow's 78 - fake scumhunting? The game has been open less than 8 hours and you are already calling people out for not posting? What about Andrius, ooba, and Yosarian2? None of them had posted at the time of your post, especially since this was your second (immediately consecutive) post of the game...

I feel like he would do that as scum.

Why would he do that as scum?

Animorph 84 - What's the policy lynch he's pushing? Lynch all people who replace out?

Furclow 99 - oh okay. You're town. In that case...

Friend and Faraday - why is Seraphim town? What evidence do you have for such a strong opinion?

Vezok 129 - aren't brother and scum the same thing?

Reaper 145 - best post of the game, at least in terms of fun and character. Props for the awesome picture.

Furcolow 149 - you can provide the off site games, but don't. Please do.

Friend 184 - so it's impossible to do a meta analysis having not actually been in a game with you?

I'd prefer to lynch a lurker than a liar if the liar is lying like I'm lying

Um... seriously... wtf?

gandalf 219 - Thanks for the contribution to all the actual posts looking for scum. You're not going to like me because I love quote stripes and love presenting relevant cases with them.

animoprh 237 - never? I think you can find scum in four posts. Or is it the first four posts of the game only?

I only just popped in, dude. And I dislike wall o text cases. Save those for the newbie games. Seriously, I can't imagine why anyone would NOT vote for FC.

You have now popped in several times and not said a damn thing. Maybe one of these times you'll actually contribute something?

Faraday 286 - it seems to me that with two brothers there are two scum groups, so we can't necessarily exclude people from being scum based on scum hunting.

Friend 290 - overwhelming gut as a reason is terrible in this instance; especially when you backpedal and say you hate to admit it.

zwet 308 - second best post of the game, in terms of pure humor.

No, I am town because of the role pm I got saying so, but whatever floats your boat.

Would you stop saying "furc is town" over and over, though? If you feel it, hold it in, unless it is necessary, or if I'm being threatened.

Neither of those is happening right now. I love the way you're defending me, but it is coming across as scummy even to me, and I'm the one you're defending.

This is especially funny coming from you, who uses every possible opportunity to claim you are town; including this very post, which does not fall into the categories you just listed.

Summing up, I think competing bandwagons on gandalf and friend would be the best course of action right now.

Holster
Aim: Friend

xvart.

[xvart]

Post 84, I was not lynching Seraphim because he was replacing out. it is a valid reason, IMO.

Wanting to see if someone is scum or town is a valid reason for a vote? I want to see if everyone is scum or town but I'm not voting everyone.

I'd have to see what you're referring to in context, xvart

also, why do you sign your posts? it's not like we don't know they're from you

For context, I'll try and explain since you don't seemed to have cared enough to go back yourself:

Animorph's 74 and Furclow's 77 strike me as very opportunistic, being that after asking to be replaced goes ahead and votes under the pretext of "we all want to know." Odds are the Seraphim wagon will disintegrate after asking for replacement.

1

Furclow's 78 - fake scumhunting? The game has been open less than 8 hours and you are already calling people out for not posting? What about Andrius, ooba, and Yosarian2? None of them had posted at the time of your post, especially since this was your second (immediately consecutive) post of the game...

2

I feel like he would do that as scum.

Why would he do that as scum?

³

Furclow 99 - oh okay. You're town. In that case...

4

I'd prefer to lynch a lurker than a liar if the liar is lying like I'm lying

Um... seriously... wtf?

5

1

Someone replaces out and you immediately aim saying he "may as well die." That doesn't strike you as opportunistic?

2

You accuse one person of not posting enough but don't care about any of the people who haven't posted at all. Why are you more concerned with someone who has posted only once compared to the people who haven't posted at all?

3

Why would someone replace out as scum? Or do you think that specifically Seraphim would do that as scum? If only Seraphim, what brought you to this conclusion? Do you think he was busted already? Or, if people who replace out replace out as scum, why?

4

No response needed. You are just stating that you are town...

again.

5

No context/response needed here, either; unless you care to explain the scummiest post of the game so far.

Summing up, I think competing bandwagons on gandalf and friend would be the best course of action right now.

This seems like you're playing both sides of the argument against each other.

How? There are several possibilities under a two scum game:

• Friend is town, gandalf is town;
  
• Friend is scum1, gandalf is town;
  
• Friend is scum2, gandalf is town;
  
• Friend is town, gandalf is scum1;
  
• Friend is town, gandalf is scum2;
  
• Friend is scum1, gandalf is scum1;
  
• Friend is scum2, gandalf is scum2;
  
• Friend is scum 1, gandalf is scum2; and,
  
• Friend is scum2, gandalf is scum 1.

The only one of those that would not be extremely beneficial later in terms of bandwagon information later in the game is if they both are town. Having competing bandwagons would give ample information in terms of if one of them is scum (or if both of them were scum); not that it matters since the gandalf wagon dissolved/never took off.

Friend is most likely town too. Reasoning is based on
- When a particular person chose to attack another
- What topics were commented on\ignored

Can you elaborate a little more? What "particular person" are you referring to? Which topics were commented on and which were ignored and how those specific topics are indicative of town/scum?

Nevermind... Saw your 365 where you said you would have more detailed cases as the game goes on and the comment about "absolutes". But what comments were ignored?

3. I disagree

If you disagree that overwhelming gut is a terrible justification, why do you hate to admit it?

eh I can only use the one-shot during the night.

it will still be at gandalf

What? Did I miss something?

General way he was posting, plus the way he replaced out. Also he mentioned Vezok possibly concocting this plan with his scumbuddies, if I understand the game mechanics there probably wouldn't be any scumbuddies since they'd be recruiting and I think this is prob a town tell.

You don't think his repeated change of his Vezok read while under pressure is at least mildly concerning?

Caught up through page 399. Will explain my Friend vote in a post later tonight since at this point there seems to be a lot of questioning about how terrible the case on him is.

xvart.

[xvart]

uh, people usually DO need to explain themselves to be accepted as correct.

Exactly. This is one thing that really peeves me. People who just say "X is town, Y is scum" with absolutely nothing else. It sets up a terrible situation if someone says "X is scum" and X flips town; then the person has to go back after the fact and justify the vote with all the questioning of the wagon. And then it can easily be construed as making a case after the fact, which if the original claimer is town, is disastrous for the town.

This, though, has some evidence - like I said earlier, the dichotomy (FRIEND VS. ME=WEIRD ZOMG) is total bullshit.

But even gut must have some at least most basic reason behind it.

Hey guys, another scum!

How so?

Quotes.

Weren't you one of the people posturing as quote stripes are heinous?

ONLY SCUM SHOULD WANT TO USE BULLSHIT COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE WAY POSTS ARE FORMATTED TO AVOID SAYING ANYTHING RELEVANT.

What do you mean by only scum

should

?

Friend's self meta is scummy which is only enhanced by the pure self deprecation in that self meta.

Anyways, onto scumhunting:

What RC said.

aim, holster: Yosarian2

That's some great scumhunting there :rollseyes:

xvart:

Go back, and read my reason. I tohught that that reason was good.

I saw your reason: We all want to know? What sort of reasoning is that? It says nothing of alignment and even alludes to lynching someone who might be town just so we can see if he is town?

Seriously? I got the largest wagon on me bro.

You don't even have half the number of votes needed to lynch; so calling yourself an easy target is not really going anywhere; especially when tons of people are claiming you are town.

All caught up now; will return with Friend in a bit.

xvart.

[xvart]

Xvart: 6 votes is greater than 1/2 of 11.

I stand corrected; but my point still stands on how you think it is an easy bandwagon when so many people are calling you town?

there's an even scummier one for you xvart, but it is a whole bunch of

NULLNESS

I don't even know what this means, or to whom you are referring.

Additionally, the response you've given to the pressure on you is...well, it's scummy. Although I can't place my finger on why. It feels just like the way experienced scum would react to light accusations of them - shooting it down mercilessly with more aggression than logic.

What pressure? A few votes with sketchy justification at best? You're trying to make someone more scummy in an attempt to derail your wagon instead of trying to prove you are town to derail your wagon.

My original point was really that xvart appeared to be creating a situation where he could let others do the work in building the wagons, and then jump onto whichever was convenient. It wasn't so much about the actual alignment of the people being wagoned.

Misrep? If you recall, I picked a wagon and got on it (Friend). I wasn't waiting behind the scenes to see which wagon was more "convenient." Early bandwagons, especially competing bandwagons, can show a lot further down the line. At that point, Friend and Gandalf were the two scummiest people in my eyes, but you can hardly say with a straight face that I was waiting to jump on whichever one was more convenient.

I've been helpful in town games. Namely, SWN II, when I pay more attention, I can do real well.

So you aren't paying attention? Or do you pay more attention in town games?

So, in essence, you (ooba) agreed with his (Faraday's) non-existent case the most out of any that existed at the time, and now you're grasping at straws for a reason to vote for me, even after Faraday unvoted?

(and if you want even more WIFOM, ... YOU were the one whose vote I sheeped the first time, which may have been why he considered me scummy in the first place...)

This is an excellent question. I don't recall Faraday even saying anything about Reaper other than he is scum with a vote.

1) You're hitting some obvious VI[?] town players for a lynch. Namely Furc and gandalf.
2) You are supporting RC in his quest to be useless.
3) You have like, no outstanding scum reads. You're obviously hitting some of the more obvious scummy players, but there is no way in hell they're all scum, let alone one of them.

Also, you're posted 5 times. I also don't like how you only target the same people every time: the easy lynches and Faraday.

Calling Erg0 as potential scum-buddy #1 if you flip scum, BTW. Faraday as a distant possibility.

(And yes, there is a bit of gut involved here, but there is logic behind this suspicion, whereas my scum-read on Erg0 is pure gut ATM.)

1. Well considering the people you refer to as VIs are spamming the thread

and

behaving suspiciously, I don't really see the problem here.
2. You can't seriously be trying to use this as justification of me being scum. A one sentence joke? Can you? And why didn't you comment on my similar comment about zwet?
3. I think I made it clear that my most obvious scum reads were Friend and gandalf. How many scum reads does someone need to announce to be town?
4. This is actually my fifth post, and if you're asking me to apologize for not spamming the thread you better think again. Five posts in four and half days would typically be sufficient, and considering the amount of spam, nonsense, and increasing page length every time I log on I don't see the problem here, either.

To sum up, your case on me is mostly nonsense, and is mildly scummy since justification two and your afterthought are severely reaching.

This guy has made 2 posts: one of which was deep speculation, and the other was bandwagonning on a townie
It is not enough to warrant me voting, but I've got my eye on chronopie

If by deep speculation you mean essentially repeating what is in the first post, I suppose. The second, "bandwagoning a townie" isn't really so obvious to most of us considering your behavior.

@M=W

- can you explain your meta argument about Friend? What in his meta shows that he is likely scum in this game?

xvart.

[xvart]

1. Except their play is still town-leaning. "Spamming the thread" isn't reason to attack them heavliy. I was a Mason and spammed the HP game. XD "Being suspicious" does deserve attention, however their play is still town for the most part.
2. I'm serious. While its not something I build a case off of, townies are supposed to HELP the town, and encouraging RC to act out gets him NOWHERE. And I succeeded in halting the joking, nonchalant [right word?] behaviour, so it was a win in my book.
3. More than 2. Because there's most likely more than 2 scum in this game. And there will be more, so.
4. I'm not asking for an apology. That'd be dumb.

This is where it starts to get interesting with your solid scum read on me.

1. Part of your solid scum read on me is because in my second post I questioned obvious targets. Then, after my response, you come back and say the people I was questioning (Fucolow, gandalf, and Friend) are leaning town. Then, about four hours later, you accuse Furcolow of being scummy and about seven hours later you say Friend is the likely scum in the alliance. What happened to them leaning town? And what happens to your case on me being scum now that two of the people I questioned are actually scum (remember, you said it wasn't actually that they were easy targets but rather that they were leaning town)?

2. The fact that you are serious makes me laugh. But it makes me laugh more that you realize your solid read of me is made up of such baseless lunacy that you have to justify a one line post saying I liked one RC post for non game content related reasons as cheerleading RC and egging him on, encouraging him to not contribute, as scum motivation. Again, why do you not comment on my post saying zwet's post was my second favorite (for non game related content)?

3. So in a game with 20 people, where it seems that there were two scum N0 that both probably recruited leaving four possible scum, I have to have more than two scum reads? Isn't that a little ridiculous? I suppose I could just go around throwing "hai guyz I found scum" lines like you do, but strangely enough, some players have different playstyles. I tend to focus on a smaller number of people, and in all honesty; I typically tunnel on one person until they are lynched or I am convinced otherwise. But, in order to appease you, you have been added to my scum list due to your scummy case building. That's three scum reads, so now this scumtell of yours is invalid.

4. So you don't have a follow up comment on the fact that I have posted just slightly over the average of one post per day? Do you accuse everyone in all your games that don't post more than an average of once per day? Is this really a reliable scumtell? Especially coming from someone who seems to understand that there is a difference between people who are busy and people who are not busy outside of MS.

One final question: if you seriously thought you found scum with me and weren't simply throwing out random scum reads you thought you could later justify if questioned about it, why didn't you follow up on it? Why didn't you ask me any questions? Why didn't you make a bigger deal out of it?

---

After reviewing my suspicions on Friend, I feel like a lot of my case on him is more repeated possibly circumstantial evidence. I think his play has been riddled with independently scummy things that might indicate scum alignment; but Andrius' fake scummy case building is much more likely to come from scum independent of anything else and is much more scummy than all the little scummy things that Friend continues to do.

I encourage everyone to go back and at least look at his first suspicion of me where he says I attack town leaning people (Furculow, Friend, and gandalf) when he later calls Furculow and Friend scum. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

Holster
Aim: Andrius

xvart.

[xvart]

The tr;dr response to xvart's post is this:

One final question: if you seriously thought you found scum with me and weren't simply throwing out random scum reads you thought you could later justify if questioned about it, why didn't you follow up on it? Why didn't you ask me any questions? Why didn't you make a bigger deal out of it?

Because dramonic continues to exist, and I'm *trying* to organize the mass of town players into something cohesive that can actually be used to lynch scum.

Way to take the most insignificant portion of what I said to try and derail my case before other people come in and comment while you finish your homework.

also in defense of your insane argument against me, scum would not come clean that they were avoiding a mislynch as town like i have, they would try to stick by their insanity

This makes me sick.

Oh whatever. I can see that this wagon is going nowhere.

Aim: dramonic

And don't be calling me VI guyzzzzzzzz. I only act this way in larges.

If you are only interested in wagon's going somewhere, why did you choose dramonic over Andrius?

ITT my wagon is obviously scum-driven.

Yes, because it has Andrius' name all over it.

You all sadden me. I'd much rather have the kurker die than someone who will actually be posting content.

I would much rather have scum die regardless of activity level.

xvart.

[xvart]

or i could claim that i was a veteran, with a passive ability
i could claim i was a vig and didn't want to mishit
i could claim i was a medic and say i protected someone who wasnt killed (which would be obvious)
any more brilliant ideas mr scum ?

Or you could just not claim anything... at all... because there was no reason to claim at L-8. The point is, you lied to the town on several occasions regarding your role, and that is something scum do. It isn't townish behavior to say "well I could have lied more" (which you just did).

xvart.

[xvart]

ok, so vote me, and i'll vote you

What? What good would this do?

i don't like you

Why? Does your personal feelings about me indicate alignment somehow? If so, how?

i don't believe you're town

Okay. Why?

i hate your signature

How is this an indicator of alignment?

xvart.

[xvart]

if this game is a chore for you, by all means

Once again, showing you just want to lynch anyone for any reason. You also must have accidentally missed my post; so I'll repeat:
How does your personal feelings about me indicate my alignment as scum?
Why don't you believe I am town?
How does you hating my signature indicate that I am scum?

If you don't believe I am town, why are you voting someone that says he has nothing to contribute? Is that a more accurate scumtell?

xvart.

[xvart]

FTR, I found another Furcolow scum game.

And what can you tell us about this? Or are you just trying to appear to be helpful? (update as reading, I see erg0 asked the same thing, which he answers here, quoted below).

No, but from what I can tell, the players there think he was the exact same as here. Biggest VI ever. Everyone except the mod, that is.

So what was the point of providing the meta scum game if you have no analysis other than he is playing the exact same way in both games? Wouldn't that indicate that he was scum in this game? And if so, why are you not voting him?

I am fairly certain the people who are even trying to question me: xvart, yosarian2
are in my suspects list when i named 5 people

1

xvart has changed his posting style this game, sinking to my level, which i feel is a sign of scum.

2

I've got my eye on him, so FoS, but I'm going to put my vote on someone I find scummier as soon as I get caught up in my other games.

also, xvart, my vote on you was more of a joke than anything to see if you would come down to the level

3

so was needling with comments about your signature, or about not liking you. I don't dislike you at all, I was just seeing how you'd react

4

1

So questioning people is scummy?

2

So sinking to your level is scummy? Your level being scummy? Is that right?

3

Was your vote a joke? Or was it a test to see if I would "come to [your] level"? It can't be both.

4

So it wasn't a joke? It was a reaction vote? Make up your mind please.

Maybe I am wrong about RC .. Anyway would like to see an Andrius flip ..

Why?

Furc was being scummy, but is still town. You can have a really scummy mason, but he's still town.
If you remember, RC gave a list of people in the alliance, and someone picked the scum out of it. I narrowed my gaze and said IF there were scum in the alliance, it would be Friend, as he's my weakest town read.
Thanks for the misrep. You made it seem like it was some big thing of 'oh Andy's scum and can't keep steady reads' but it was really you not providing the proper grounds.

You're right. My apologies for the picking scummy people out of a list; but your read on friend has been anything but steady since you were leaning town in this post and then you are not leaning either way in this post, the very next day.

Because zwet was actually posting content, while RC was being a jackass.

So it's simply subjective about the content of my post as long as it suits your impression of players?

Do I need to have a follow-up? I looked you up and you actually posted somewhat steadily. Your posts just get lost in the faced-paced moving game, so.
I don't accuse everyone of massive lurkage.

I'd like to see a game where you call someone scummy with a basis of only posting an average of once per RL day. That was my point.

I'm not throwing around scum-reads, and I still find you as scum. BUT dramonic is also scum and a much easier lynch to accomplish so I have focused me energies there. If we could double-lynch then I'd be on you or another scumread also, but dramonic needs to die.

Really? So saying you found scum and providing no reasoning whatsoever is

not

just throwing out a scumread?

Fact: We can't force dramonic to play the game.
Fact: Dramonic is not really playing the game.
Fact: Dramonic is not helping the town.
IIRC: Dramonic has no scum-reads. (WTF?)

None of which are indicators that he is scum.

Last time I had a scummy read on Dram, [redacted - Ongoing], so

Pistol Whip: Dram

(Really, Really Big HoS that's not quite a vote)

wtf? I don't even know what this means? If dram flips scum, Chrono should be heavily considered for the next lynch.

Caught up through page 31. The rest coming later.

xvart.

[xvart]

i agree that dramonic is a good lynch
even if he's town, which i doubt, he has "always been catching up"

The cardinal rule: always leave yourself outs.

also RC I have softclaimed like a billion times

People who are eager to point out their softclaims are scummy.

xvart.

[xvart]

If people were allowed to protect, people should have been allowed to kill.

Not necessarily, for so many reasons. Maybe the the scum lord can either recruit or kill in any given night, and they both chose to recruit (I believe I read a game like that before); maybe it was only non-killing PR movement; maybe whatever. And how are you (and LG) possibly using this as a justification as for dramatic being scum since, at least Andrius, has alluded to being a PR, so were you able to use your action last night? Does that make you scum since there were no NKs? And why would a moderator go out of his way to say "you don't need to bodyguard someone night zero because there will be no kills." And, if there are trackers and watchers and other movement informational roles out there they can see a bodyguard doing something.

I'm guessing there are probably multiple bodyguards in this game, based on the flavor and recruiting mechanic. It just seems that would make sense to have the Don's recruiting bodyguards to help protect themselves from the other mafia during the night and leaves the challenge to the town of lynching the Don's sons.

xvart.

[xvart]

So your recruiting went through last night? It was actually more of a rhetorical question.

Maybe once they have an additional member they can recruit and kill; I don't know, but saying that the bodyguard claim is false because there was no night kill was a terrible justification to rally a lynch, especially if you had a night action that you were able to submit.

I think the hardest thing is going to be picking out the N0 recruits because we have no past behavior to compare with. I believe dramatic's claim of Bodyguard, but that doesn't necessarily clear him of being a N0 recruit, and I doubt that dram would be a N0 recruit based on how much attention he seems to gather in games.

We might also want to consider any claimed people to explicitly state their suspect list before each night so we can cross reference that later and see if they have a quick turnaround due to being recruited.

xvart.

[xvart]

I agree with the suspect list, but it should be obvious enough. Good players will maintain their reads, those who aren't will not. Simple as that.

Smart recruiters will also recruit people that have similar viewpoints or similar motives and suspicion lists. The question is going to be about the middle of the road people that aren't accurate with their scum lists about either faction; and these people might get recruited back and forth. I wonder what happens to a recruitee who gets recruited again.

So, in conclusion, I implore you all to not worry about the recruitees, but who are the recruiters trying to communicate in thread with their recruitees. that is what to look for.

The problem is we have no real way to differentiate between the two at this point other than game theory discussion (which can be helpful); but I would rather just lynch scum on D1 as opposed to only recruiter hunting and missing.

xvart.

[xvart]

chronopie and yosarian are on the tops of my scum lists

their posts, which I haven't even read yet, just FEEL like scum hating

on the concepts RC is bringing up in terms of a pro-town alliance.
I had a sentence typed out, but my instinct is telling me this: RC is NOT being like he was in HP mafia. it is VERY likely he is a town/townie, and I am going to agree to this alliance based upon the negative feel of the previous 2 posts with the positive feel of RC's post. I am not going to go read the last two posts previous to RC's.

Had to jump in on this before I went back to my last post and started responding. How can posts that you

haven't

read feel a certain way? How can you respond to posts in terms of their intent/content when you admit you haven't read them?

xvart.

[xvart]

Yeah well, I'm not giving myself up quite yet.
But. I will not crumb or claim further unless I'm pushed to lynch further than you.
I won't let scum_dram outlive me, no sirree.

unvote
vote: andrius

claim
you're further than dramonic

unvote

now you guys are tied
still leaning dramonic, but i want to hear from andrius
this kind of pressure is good for town

You unvoted, voted Andy, then unvoted him. How is that pressure?

skimming to post, interpreting vibes of the message they are sending out influencing me to have certain thoughts or emotions drawn from them

when i read them, they confirmed that

it was neat, even for myself, to have done that

How convenient. (Bolded emphasis mine).

After that I want to be a private investigator.

For everyone shouting out about drams claim of working for celebrities being unbelievable, how does this compare?

Holster
Aim: Furcolow

xvart.

[xvart]

Also, inHim, vote dramonic.

You were one of the people questioning the legitimacy of the "working for stars" flavor claim, so my question was directed at you. Do you think that becoming a cop wanting to be a PI is more legitimate than a bodyguard wanting to go work as a celebrity bodyguard? Does Andy's flavor claim leave you unaffected in terms of your case on dram?

xvart.

[xvart]

IMO, dram is scum. We lynch him, and if he is town, we lynch Andrius. Problem solved.

Also, proven role =/= proven alignment.

On what planet does this lining up lynches make any sense coming from a town perspective?

xvart.

[xvart]

Yos, whom you

do not lynch day one

.

you

don't lynch Yos day one

.

And may I ask why not?

If there was night 0 recruiting (such as seems to be popular consensus), then pure and simple logic would dictate that scum with any brains at all would want to grab him, a renowned mafiascum player, to be part of their faction ASAP, would it not?

Yes/No

And that by result means that there is a greater chance that he's scum than anyone else, right?

Yes/No

And that's not even COUNTING the probability that he might be the original scum recruiter. So... remind me again why we do not lynch Yos day one? Is he

really

that indispensable to the town? I haven't seen anything very impressive thus far from either him or you. In fact, you seem to be on a lot of people's scum lists, yourself...

And really, now that I look back at it, your entire post that I'm replying to, looks like you're just trying your best to win townie points.

Talked about skewed data, not to mention the obvious WIFOM. If you came to such an obvious conclusion don't you think the recruiter would, too; and therefore not recruit him?

And, what probability that he was the original recruiter? 2/20? 1/10? This is the weakest most bat shit crazy justification for lynching someone.

xvart.

[xvart]

Actually, I don't understand the need to hide your result. You've already offered the disclaimer of why it might not be accurate, so we all fully understand the grain of salt. Also, I wonder if recruits can be recruited by the other team. If anything, your possible bad result might cause one team to recruit the other (if possible) which is also beneficial to the town because it keeps the scum numbers down (while they fight amongst themselves at night for a larger clan).

Furculow - why don't you explain yourself

now

? Why the need to wait?

xvart.

[xvart]

lulz? We have been talking about two recruiters for basically the entire game. Even so, if I was scum, my role pm would have to indicate that there were two groups (not to mention that it says there are two sons of the Don trying to take over or something like that). I wouldn't expect anything else from you, since you openly admit to not reading the thread.

xvart.

[xvart]

happy mafia day, xvart.
what do i need to explain?
i'm willing to answer anything that will be productive for the town.

When you said "

if you do not believe me, give me time to explain myself better before the hammer. i do not believe andrius whatsoever. he is a recruiter.

" I took that as you could explain yourself better. I was just asking you to do so now as opposed to waiting until someone was about to hammer you.

I really don't think the Furcolow wagon is good. Funnily, it's comprised of almost all older players (MS vets). I'm not sure if that's a sign of lack of experience with VIs more than anything else but it's interesting.

Huh? The older players have a lack of experience with VIs? Wouldn't they have more experience with them?

So what's wrong with the dram wagon again?
I believe Andrius' claim.

Well, besides lynching a claimed powerrole, his claim is a testable by setting him up as the bodyguard for Andrius, who is a claimed cop (of sorts). If Andrius dies tonight and dram is still alive tomorrow then we lynch him.

is it because I'm scum? no. I wouldn't have a wagon on me if I was.

You wouldn't have a wagon on you if you were scum? Scum get wagonned all the time; that is how they get lynched.

i also do not understand why dramonic should bodyguard andrius.

Do you understand what a bodyguard does? Their job is to protect powerroles from dying by guarding them. If scum send in a kill order on Andrius and dram guards him, dram takes the bullet and dies, leaving our claimed cop alive another night.

there is likely a town roleblocker/jailkeeper in my opinion, the more i'm thinking about setup

What's your point?

I am against lynching RC solely on the fact that he is friendly towards me, but if you all want to, I'm not going to chainsaw him or anything as I am not a mason with him and I have no knowledge of his role as I did not have any investigation n0 or anything.

Because scum never act nice to players of different alignment?

Holster
Aim: ReaperCharlie

Seriously Andrius, you get likely 3rd party result and you DON'T vote him 0_o

dramonic

- you are going to guard Andrius tonight. Yes or No???

xvart.

[xvart]

Fine. I hate to have to do this, but I am not a townie. I am the real detective, not Andrius, though we could have two? As for my N0 investigation, I sent in rolecheck: reapercharlie, but day1 RVS had already started by a few hours. Mega fail.

This is totally bogus, and even if it wasn't; good thing you've been lying about your role all day so there is no plausible way to believe anything that has come out of your mouth. If Fucolow flips scum then RC is next as the likely recruitee. One team down. How did you miss the deadline when N0 was three RL days long?

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm here. I'll catch up tomorrow.

xvart.

[xvart]

Hmmm... who better to sheep than the cop? <3

Sheeping a cop with no result is not exactly productive.

I think 3 is the one we're running with. And I don't think scum have a kill. I think that zwet and ooba might be the only killing roles in the game, which destroys my ooba recruiter theory, but doesn't say that ooba can't be scum.

Could you explain your thinking here in a little more depth? Why do you not think scum have a kill? Zwet and ooba are the only killing roles in the game? Why do you think this?

ooba: Why would you kill Zwet? I know you said you suspected him yesterday, but could you explain again? Because I still don't get it; he seemed obvtown.

Not to me he didn't ...

I'm not untargetable ..

This isn't an explanation, and you aren't helping your case.

What case?

A loose cannon is a one-shot limited vig/doublevoter ..
I have a bullet with me ..
If I shoot it at a player in the day, it becomes a double vote which cannot be changed ..
At night, I am one-shot vig ..

I decided to use my bullet yesterday night ..

Is your double vote announced in thread or by pm?

- Your cult can recruit or kill theory is wrong

How do you know this?

@Yos
- That's what I think the setup is - A cult which can just recruit
"Well, a lot of cult groups can't recruit either pro-town power roles,

or members of the other cult group.

"
If this was the case, then it makes even more sense to recruit early to make sure the other group fails more often later.

Seems to me you are playing both sides of the argument against each other, which doesn't work. You say the scum don't have a NK ability, but also they can't recruit powerroles (which I believe a loose canon to be). So either scum will never be able to perform a NK or your suggestion agreeing that the cult can't recruit powerroles is just smoke and mirrors.

I really don't like the way the ooba wagon developed, but because of that wagon I'm not really liking his responses.

ITT we eat

WIFOMsandwiches™

fed to us by Yosarian2.

Om nom nom.

Actually you were the one that made the WIFOMsandwich. Yos just explained the recipe you used.

Regarding the Yos thing: RC has been pushing this wagon too hard and too long without any analysis of play. It would be interesting if he were a recruiter and chose to push this wagon early in the hopes that the other team would recruit him. I just think he's scummy and prefers to lynch someone based on their reputation rather than his play. I'm up to lynch him.

Or maybe RC is trying to lynch someone that

might

be on the other cult team.

But he was acting in an inherently scummy way BECAUSE OF HIS PLAYSTYLE. That's what VIs do.

It is not possible for someone inherently scummy to actually be scum? I don't see why you are arguing so much for not being on the Fuculow wagon than actually arguing for the accused scum on his wagon.

Yos, you're missing a key difference. Motivation.

You have to tell if the person committing said scummy actions is committing them because they are indeed scum, or because they're a VI and despite their efforts to contribute to the town, they end up acting scummily. In Furc's case, it was clear (to me) that he was doing the latter. I'm not saying that VIs are always town, but they can be read and it's a knock on you that you couldn't - either you're scum or you're not the great player that everyone thinks you are. My vote goes for "Yos is scum," because I don't think you've built up your reputation as one of the best players on the site with VI mislynches. Honestly, I expected better from a game with this caliber of players; it really makes me think that we have some scum in those "MS elders."

How is it so obvious? What exactly about his mututally agreed upon scummy play made you 100% certain he was town? Especially yesterday you only called him probably town? I think you are scum and were playing the odds yesterday that he wasn't the recruiter and wouldn't be recruited N0.

Aim: Friend

xvart.

[xvart]

Xvart, I'm confused by your case on me.

Why is it so obvious today that Furculow was obviously town when yesterday you were only "pretty sure" he was town?

Xvart, there were no NKs that couldn't be accounted for by the loose cannons. I said zwet and ooba because they were the only claimed ones and I didn't know they were oneshot. Now I think there are probably a few of them, but I still don't think scum has a NK.

So who shot dramatic or Andrius? A town loose canon?

xvart.

[xvart]

Pretty sure that was zwet, from his play yesterday I wouldn't be surprised if he shot dram.

So it is not possible by any sense of the word that scum tried to kill the claimed investigation role and hit the bodyguard who was instructed to protect Andrius from the NK? Which seems more likely? Your highly speculative assumption of dead zwet's play yesterday or scum wanting to kill the claimed investigator?

xvart.

[xvart]

*wonders why gandalf5166 and xvart are only selectively paying attention*

What am I selectively ignoring?

I also like how you like to say you are confirmed town by investigation when you are not cleared by any sense of the word.

xvart.

[xvart]

That question is irrelevant because it was N0 when your supposed investigation and subsequent something or other happened. Your behavior D1 has no bearing on N0 recruiting.

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry peeps. Work has been hell. I'm catching up tonight and finishing my convo with RC.

xvart.

[xvart]

Your behavior D1 has no bearing on N0 recruiting.

Ummm. Yes it does?

It doesn't. Someone could have recruited you N0 since Andrius says something happened to you after he left (or flavor suggests such). You not having an avatar is throwing me off (off topic end).

I think vezok's post here is highly inappropriate.

Might have a case up on someone(faraday?) tomorrow, but I'm tired tonight.

Might

have a case on

someone

tomorrow? Did you throw a dart on faraday to decide on who your random case would go on? Or did you pick him because he is getting a wagon on him?

Holster
Aim: Me=Weird

I don't think Chrono is the lynch for today. Depending on what happens in the meantime, he might be tomorrow, but I think Ooba's either lying scum, or he was recruited, so he should be the lynch for today.

What might happen in the meantime that he might be the lynch for tomorrow? What are you alluding to here?

Nice lolsoftclaim that might possibly work that might not depending on everyone else.

Well so far just Yos2 and Xvart. in that order.

What? Yos2 and I can possibly confirm you? I don't understand this at all. Please clarify.

xvart.

[xvart]

What? Yos2 and I can possibly confirm you? I don't understand this at all. Please clarify.

That would depend on your night action resolution (or lack of).

So either Yos2 or I might be able to confirm you action, but can we confirm your alignment?

I don't think Chrono is the lynch for today. Depending on what happens in the meantime, he might be tomorrow, but I think Ooba's either lying scum, or he was recruited, so he should be the lynch for today.

What might happen in the meantime that he might be the lynch for tomorrow? What are you alluding to here?

Every time someone says "depending on what happens," they really mean, that just about anything can happen. Scum slips, new connections being made, people's flips, investigation results, etc...it's actually kind of irritating for me when I see someone try to make that into anything more than it is.

But doesn't that apply to everyone? Why specifically ooba? Couldn't anyone be guilty under the scum slips, new connections being made, people's flips, investigation results, etc. tomorrow?

xvart: I said maybe because I was unsure of my schedule, and it turns out that I likely won't get a case up until saturday. I suggested faraday because a small wagon was forming on him, so I decided it would be worth it to look at him at least.

Weak. Your original statement was so ambivalent in nature that it is more likely to come from scum. It appears to me that you didn't want to be seen as lurking and you wanted to appear to be scumhunting so you gave a head nod to a growing wagon.

No. I'm saying that if someone has a wagon on them, it's worth it to go look and see if the wagon has good reasons.

But not the people you previously found scummy? Do you not care about your previous reads?

RC, do you think
- That lynching a cult recruiter is better than lynching a cult recruit ?
- I am a cult recruiter?

So you are saying it is better to look for the person who recruited you?

As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with RC in his 1515 post about ooba and chrono being second best lynch target (although I would swap chrono and Me=Weird interchangeably here).

Holster
Aim: ooba

xvart.

[xvart]

And what are your thoughts now that I've given a case?

Like I said: weak. Your case leaves a lot to be desired, especially considering you only ISO his recent posts. Does his early play have no bearing on his alignment? You continue to look like you want to do the absolute minimum to appear to be scumhunting.

The only scum-reads I had weren't going anywhere. If they were, I wouldn't have switched to faraday. I do, but like I said, they weren't going anywhere, and besides, I've almost lost track of my scum-reads.

Your faraday case is the first case you've really made other than some early vote hopping with less than desirable justifications (it was early game, though). Only scum don't have a need to keep track of their scum reads because they are bogus reads to begin with.

Could someone actually explain the Faraday wagon? It seems to be separate people all reaching the same conclusion separately, which doesn't help me.

InHim: I'd say that RC and xvart are equally suspicious in regards to the Faraday wagon, and I don't like that you didn't bring up others.

That's real nice, LG. You ask for an explanation of the faraday wagon and then blast RC and me with regards to the faraday wagon? What does that even mean? What specifically is suspicious about our interactions with the faraday wagon? Are we both guilty of the same thing? Please be less vague with your terrible accusations. And, how can we be suspicious regarding a wagon you don't even understand?

But I like the constant posting. Gives me something to do. And plus, then you don't have a giant WoT.

[/quote]
It also increases the page count exponentially with fluff and filler.

xvart.

[xvart]

Yes, but the amount to read isn't any higher, the topic just looks more formidable.

Except is more to read, and has nothing to do with scumhunting when you post comments like these after every post:

O HAI ROBO

YOU WILL LIKE WHO VEZO IS VOTING

Yes, and you'll be groaning for your player slot the whole way through. Vezok was town, but stupid town.

But I like the constant posting. Gives me something to do. And plus, then you don't have a giant WoT.

xvart.

[xvart]

Well. Nothing has happened. You all have just shown me that you all can act like children!

One thing. One thing that I got from the first 20 pages was...

Andrius is town. Soooo sooo town.

Let me ask you this: how is Andrius "soooo sooo town" if the first 20 pages nothing has happened? What are you basing this obvious read on?

And what are your thoughts now that I've given a case?

Like I said: weak. Your case leaves a lot to be desired, especially considering you only ISO his recent posts. Does his early play have no bearing on his alignment? You continue to look like you want to do the absolute minimum to appear to be scumhunting.

It does, but I think not as much, especially since, as robo says, the first 20 or so pages didn't do much. Oh dear, I'm so sorry that I don't have all the time in the world to tell people everything about why they should vote faraday.

Ughh... responses in quotes... Anyways: you make this big deal about ISOing someone and then you come back on someone with a building wagon but you only ISO his most recent posts? If you were serious about making a case you would

make a case

. You just went and hit some highlights and therefore did not really make a case at all. That's my point. And I don't see the need for the AtE about not having time to flesh out a case you said you would probably do.

Deflection. Answer the question - Do you think I am a cult recruiter or not?

I'm going to answer this question since I commented on the same thing. Your defense seems to be that you are not a recruiter; not that you are not a member of a recruiting faction. You are trying to deflect attention because you think that there is no evidence of you being a recruiter, so we should be hunting that person instead of you.

xvart.

[xvart]

I can't believe the Faraday wagon, built on nothing but hopes and dreams, is winning compared to the guy whose defense is basically a logical argument that suggests he is not the recruiter but says nothing of him being recruited and how we should not consider him because he isn't the recruiter.

xvart.

[xvart]

I can't believe the Faraday wagon, built on nothing but hopes and dreams, is winning compared to the guy whose defense is basically a logical argument that suggests he is not the recruiter but says nothing of him being recruited and how we should not consider him because he isn't the recruiter.

So unlike RC, you agree with the part where I am not a cult recruiter but still think its a good idea to lynch me because I might be recruited?

I don't really care if you are recruiter or recruited; the fact that your defense is not "I am not a member of a cult" is so scummy because you thought you were perceived as not being a recruiter so you were trying to get people to focus on the more important recruiter while never addressing the accusation of being a cult member.

I think this "noise" is some generic little mod shenanigan explaining why I don't just investigate and masonize people, see?
So I doubt the noise is anything significant, unless someone is perpetually tracking me/ watching my targets...

Masonize people?

xvart.

[xvart]

So I had a thought; if I'm NK'd tonight, (barring any protection), there's probably only one scum-group. Because if there are 2, they'd possibly keep me around to hunt for each other? Especially if they can recruit me?

This doesn't really make sense. First, the ridiculous speculation on only one scum team? I suppose it is plausible; but the flavor, unless completely convoluted, suggests pretty clearly that there are two cult factions. Second, with you death how does that suggest only one scum group? With one or two scum groups either one would want you dead as long as you haven't been recruited to that group. Your death suggests that you were not a member of the scum group that killed you (unless you were shot by a town loose cannon which would be stupid) but it does not come close to suggesting that there is only one scum group.

Ugh. And no one better suggest a massclaim. That'd help the scum pick out what they want.

Was there a reason to think that someone might suggest a mass claim at this point? Isn't this pretty obvious?

Question: how many days do you think the town can allow 2 cult recruiters to both survive and still have a reasonable chance of winning?

IMHO, The realistic answer is probably somewhere between 3 or 4. If both cult recruiters are still alive on day 5, we're talking up to 10 potential recruits; that's a worst case scenerio, but I don't really see town winning if both cult recruiters are still alive on day 5, even if we manage to lynch or vig a recruit or two before then.

So, in a 17 person game, we've got perhaps 3 chances to lynch a cult recruiter (today, tommorow, day 4) , or else town probably loses. Considering that we're talking about only 2/17 odds of hitting one if we lynch randomly today, the odds are not in our favor here, unless we get smart and put "lynching at least one cult recruiter" as our absolutely #1 priority.

Basically, looking at the numbers, I consider any argument in the form of "we shouldn't lynch X because he's probably not the recruiter" to be incredibly strong, because we don't have many chances left to lynch a cult recruiter and win. And I still don't see any likely scenerio here where ooba is a cult recruiter; the most likely scenerio here are that he's telling the truth about being a loose cannon, that he used his kill last night, and that he may or may not have been recruited at some point. If so, then we don't want to lynch him.

I see your point. But I fail to see why Faraday is likely recruiter beyond doubt; and unless I'm convinced that someone is actually a recruiter I'm satisfied with lynching a recruited person instead of someone who might not be either recruiter or recruited.

Andy - your post here is so ironic since you called me out for encouraging RC earlier in the day.

At this point, I'm almost positive Ooba is not a cult recruiter. In fact, if I had to guess, I'd guess that he's probably still town; it's possible he could have been recruited after he made the kill last night, but it's really not all that likely.

This is good posting. This I understand as to why ooba is not recruited. And regardless, as long as loose canons are only one shot and Ooba is telling the truth about shooting zwet then he is basically vanilla so he isn't a threat to be recruited.

Holster

Andy - why are you still speculating on scum having a NK or not? The way I see it is that if the cults have to recruit loose canons to submit their NKs then there are probably a fairly large number of loose canons, which, if they all submitted their action night one could be a total disaster. Additionally, if you think this, then do you think we should ask all the loose canons to use their double vote during the day so they don't have the option of recruiting a NK?

I'm starting to think that Andy has certainly been recruited. He seems to go out of the way to try and explain how he is town, speculates on things that make the cults less powerful and thus providing misinformation to the town.

xvart.

[xvart]

I like the setup spec .. Scum starting with a loose cannon makes sense ..

This puts you back on the table as scum then. Although I don't think scum starting with two people is plausible considering the number crunching Yos2 suggestion.

A lynch needs to happen soon - I want to go to D3, I really have no idea what's going on.

Sometimes you have to put your hopes in one hand and shit in your other hand and see which weighs the most. I want to go to town victory end game but that doesn't really help us out.

You should hammer. Hopefully D3 will be better. Anyway, not liking chrono to much after skimming his ISO, but there are bigger fish to fry.

Dislike. I hate only voting and building cases on gut, but something inside me is just screaming scum from Me=Weird. I know I put up a slight case on him earlier today but I think I need to go back and do a little more digging here.

Faraday's day 1 play was not pro-town at all. He never really looked for scum, his only votes weren't backed up, I hate his zwet vote, and it feels to me like Faraday's main concern day 1 was that he not get noticed by anyone and fly under the radar.

That makes him likely scum, in my book. Better yet, that makes him likely scum already on day 1, and for obvious reasons I'd rather lynch someone who looks like scum on day 1 then someone who looks like scum on day 2. It especally makes him look like cult recruiter scum; a cult recruit scum'd be more likely to get into the fray and try to cause some damage or muddy the waters or something, cult recruits are expendable, while for a cult recruiter scum, standard operation procedure would be more likely to sit back and try to not be noticed by anyone for as many days as possible.

If you've got a better case against someone else, I'd certainly be interested to hear it.

My only concern with this is that D1 was such a cluster fuck of spamming, massive fluff posting, and other nonsense that I don't see this as a solid reason for someone being a recruiter. However, I see your point, but I just think there was enough white noise going on that I'm guessing (can't remember off the top of my head, maybe Me=Weird?) that there might be a couple more people guilty of your case on Faraday.

xvart.

[xvart]

Yos2 - since you basically outlined the case on Faraday; can you take a couple of minutes to read M=W's ISO (hint: it won't take long) and do a simple comparison to Faraday? Outside of M=W's case on Friend out of the gate and his "case" on Faraday there is nothing. I would almost say there is less "ruffling of feathers" and more trying to go unnoticed, especially with lack of posting frequency and general content.

So if we are going the route of people trying not to get noticed I think Me=Weird should be considered; coupled with his recent scummy behavior he is today's lynch.

Vote: Me=Weird

xvart.

[xvart]

(nods) Me=Weird is defiantly someone we need to see more good scumhunting from. He really didn't do much, especally on day 1.

The main reason he hasn't gotten much pressure was the conditions in which Seraphim, the guy before him, replaced out on during day 1. The way that he replaced out so his personal dislike of Vez didn't effect the game was pretty odd, and several people said they couldn't see a scum doing it. I'm not completely convinced by that argument, but was defiantly a weird move (no pun intended).

I am leaning more towards his personal distaste being true, but the resulting net effect of people thinking him suspicious was unforseen, and thus replaced out. Although, I don't see anyone replacing out if he/she were the recruiter; sort of a vanity thing and having a role that the entire game hinges on. I suppose this could be null considering the main game revolving roles are cult recruiters. Does anyone know Seraphim's feelings on cults and have public statements of said feelings?

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart, if you don't think I'm a recruiter, why are you voting me? As yos pointed out, we really need to hit a recruiter today or D3.

I never definitively said you were not a recruiter. I said that if the Faraday case is solid because everyone thinks Faraday is a recruiter then you should also be considered in that sample. I did provide the caveat that said I don't see someone replacing out of one of the most important PRs in the game; however, I also said that since this significant role was a recruiter it was actually null (since recruiters and cults are bad news bears for a lot of people, which is why I asked about Seraphim's personal feelings on cults).

I also alluded to my thought process on recruiter Seraphim replacing out is that he had genuine dislike and displeasure of playing with vezok. I believe this to be true regardless of anything else that transpired. I also know Seraphim took some fairly significant (and probably unforeseen) heat for his policy lynch stance. Couple this with his potential dislike for being a recruiter and/or recognition that with him taking early heat he might not be able to recover with this attention. He then replaces out under the guise of not wanting to play with vezok. That may be moderately speculative, but considering his seesawing opinion on vezok (which I called him out on early D1) I think it adds credibility to the entire thought experiment.

A policy lynch is exponentially more important for a recruiter than in a typical scum vs town game because with a policy lynch the recruiters get another recruit out of it (something I did not think about until now).

So I'm not really sure how you can say I cleared you as a recruiter. I offered an explanation that might explain you not being a recruiter but immediately followed that with why that reasoning was a null value (in my opinion).

Why? xvart said he didn't think seraphim as recruiter wouldn't have replaced out. I asked him why he was voting me then, since we really need to lynch a recruiter.

Yes; if you truncate my quote that is exactly what I said.

xvart.

[xvart]

I don't like how everyone assumes Yos is town.

^^^ Agree

I don't like how both of you are making this comment and voting alongside Yos2, unless this is a passive aggressive way of preempting suspicion of Yos2 if the Faraday wagon flips town. I find it especially intriguing that Yos2 convinced RC to get on the wagon and now he doesn't like how people assume he is town? And Friend is even more passive aggressive since he has made no comments about the Faraday wagon at all, but is still voting.

Oh I'm done with my read. Read all of Day two and Day one was worthless.

And your thoughts (other than your previous "defense" of your predecessor?

xvart.

[xvart]

Posting now. Will do so in pieces in case the thread gets locked. Sorry in advance for multiposting.

You really think I'm going to defend Vezok?

Now Yos2,
Lets try something here.

Pretend you are Vezok replacement. Whether town or scum. Do you think that you could actually make a legit defense for them?
My thoughts on Vezok's play this game? SUCKS.

I should have said "defending your slot" and not "defending vezok." Despite replacing in, you've basically said day one was non sense and nothing really happened day two. You have yet to really take any stands. And this post itself is sort of a defense of your spot, even though it isn't necessary.

Call it gut. More based on his D1 play.

Specifically why?

xvart.

[xvart]

Also this whole LYNCH A RECRUITER thing is fine if you can fucking well find one, however if you refuse to lynch someone cos they're more likely to be a recruit and don't catch the leader then the town is well and truly fucked. Lynch whoever's scummy and hope for the best, sure you can see who's more likely but apart from that.

I couldn't agree more, which is exactly why I've been struggling with this whole don't lynch likely recruits. I just have this bad feeling that we're going to be lynching town until the cults are too big to manage. I'm in complete agreement that it should be considered to lynch scummy people and if they are the recruiter, awesome; and if a recruit; not bad. Lynching a recruit also gives us information to track backwards and analyze who might have recruited him/her and how their reads might have changed (either obvious or subtly).

xvart.

[xvart]

Xvart

- Xvart's play has been okay I guess, but I've modded him 3 times now, twice as town and once as scum and he looks so much like his scum self here after a re-read in iso. Total gut feel here, but usually when he's town I can spot him quite quickly (see lay of leithian) but here he's just there for me and it's worrying. He's also pretty much ignored my bandwagon for the most part, and there's something about his interactions with Yos2 that I don't like either. I think there's a good chance he's a recruiter who recruited Yos2.

I wouldn't say I'm there for you, because I'm pretty ambivalent about your lynch. I think there are better lynch targets out there and I don't particularly think you've been as scummy as others (maybe not engaged). I also am not sure I buy into this whole "lynch the recruiter" as I said a few minutes ago. And if I was a recruiter, WIFOM aside, I'd like to think I'm decent enough of a player that I wouldn't be quite so obvious in my interactions with someone I recruited.

What do you think of xvart? He seems to me to get 'stuck in more' as town so to speak, and I don't really see him doing it here. In fairness it didn't take me that long to post, and I've had connection issues. I blame the V/la I had in part, it left me with a lot to catch up on. Shame I was looking forward to this too.

I don't expect to get an answer to this since the deadline is looming and Faraday has already been lynched, but I don't know what you mean by "stuck in more." I'll ask after game but I don't know how to explain this behavioral change (if there legitimately is one).

xvart.

[xvart]

Also, and this is going to sound really tinfoil-hatted, but is it possible that the whole Seraphim-replacing-out thing happened because he got recruited by vezok N0?

Ohhhh. This actually makes more sense then what I was saying yesterday about Me=Weird being the recruiter, coupled with what Reaper said about Seraphim's feelings towards cults.

Aim: Robo

Dam# it. Now I'm totally torn between ooba, Yos2, Andy.

I am NOT down for a Robo wagon one bit.

The lynch target today should be NOBODY other than ooba, Yos2, or Andy.

When it comes down to it, probably Yos2 or Andy.

Why would a cult recruit ooba last night? He has used up his loose canon ability (at least as he has described it), so he would only be an additional body. Why are we now killing recruits instead of the recruiter? This seems a 180 from the previous two days.

xvart.

[xvart]

But I was going to block M=W anyway.

Why?

Noooooo. You're not listening. I don't think ooba was recruited last night. I was voting him yesterday too. I think he's been scum for most of the whole time, if not THE whole time. For some reason in the back of my mind. Maybe it's cause of Star Wars mafia, but I can't help remembering that ooba is VERY good at using situational things to fool everyone. Go ISO him in Star Wars mafia and tell me if you can find his breadcrumbing of his fake claim. VERY effective. Could be the exact thing going on here.

And (call me paranoid), but it's entirely possible that the loose cannon thing was entirely by accident. In Werewolf Wisborg Asylum (Andrius and whoever else was in that game can back me up), Spyrex (who was a VT, but had been recruited) pulled COMPLETELY OUT OF HIS @$$ a fake claim (which he hadn't originally been given) of "Priest", which ENDED UP BEING A ROLE IN THE GAME. Not just breadcrumbing either. He flat out claimed it. When he was killed and flipped cult, I went under the assumption that he was originally a Priest but had been bitten by the werewolves. I about sh*t a brick when I found out that he was originally a VT and had completely fabricated the claim. It even fooled the ACTUAL Priest.

I see what you're saying, but claiming priest and claiming loose canon are not exactly in the same sphere of plausibility. However, ooba did make the suggestion yesterday that the cult started with two people (or the recruiter was initially able to recruit one of some random power roles) so it is possible that he had access to the loose canon information prior to the start of day one (if what he was saying is true).

If Andrius is a recruit then he was not recruited last night but rather the previous nights.

So did you recruit him N0 or N1?

xvart.

[xvart]

Xvarts question not appreciated.

And not answered, either. Let's get a few more votes on Robo. That might help him think up his fake claim a little faster.

xvart.

[xvart]

Your play just feels wrong.

This, as the justification for someone being recruiter, hardly falls into the category of confirmed recruiter.

@Yos
Eh, well, I don't think claiming will do any good. But it would explain Vezo's "HEY GUYS I KNO THERE IS A CULT IN DIS GAME" stupidity he pulled.

How would it not do any good? You are leading us to believe that Chrono was not recruited last night, so you have an information role of some sort, or at least a role that provides some knowledge or receives some feedback as to recruitment. If anyone still isn't aiming for Robo after this post is probably a recruit of Robo's trying to find a way to discredit the tin foil hat theory without looking to pro Robo.

I am the cult doctor.

Each night I get to choose one person, this person cannot be recruited that Night.

Apparently Vezok targetted Reaper Night 0 and Andrius Night Two and Night Three I protected Andrius again.

What? More info plz. How do you know that Chrono was not recruited last night?

xvart.

[xvart]

Ummm, Xvart, where did I say Chrono wasn't recruited?

My mistake. You said Andy, I remembered Chrono.

xvart.

[xvart]

I too believe that vezok would not be setting up a fake claim.

Holster

Is everyone forgetting the mod-flavor last night with the lesbian sex? Seems like mod-confirmation that Chrono was roleblocked to me.

How does the sex in the night lead Chrono to RBing you? Did I miss something?

xvart.

[xvart]

I think ooba is a recruiter. Here ooba goes out of his way to say how he is confirmed role based on there not being a counter claim. I don't even see the relevance to the quote in that post as to why he would say that. I think he just wanted to say it to get it out there. Here ooba says he is going back to do a reread looking for two teams of two people, one of less importance. He never did. And now, for a little conspiracy theory, Andy investigated ooba N1, right? Andy was already claimed so it is possible that if there is a doctor Andy would be an obvious target, and since BG Dram probably ate the bullet for Andy, a doctor save would still be active and possibly prevent Andy from dying (if that's what happens when he investigates a recruiter). The fact that Andy got a result that does not indicate alignment is more than mildly concerning, and seems like a godfatherish result.

There are several setup speculations, but I think the kill or recruit each night option seems most likely, with loose canons in the game to give the cults a kill option and a recruit option in the same night.

If ooba started by himself and recruited a loose canon N0 then he would have that relevant information. If he decided to clear himself with the loose canon he could have bypassed the recruit N1 and killed zwet (night action kill) and had his recruited loose canon attempt to kill Andy. I would think that confirming yourself as a specific non recruiting role would be worth passing up a recruit option one night.

Aim: ooba

xvart.

[xvart]

Iiiiiiii don't think Ooba's a recruiter (agreeing with Yos). I think it's possible he could've been recruited (but having used his shot, that would be pretty useless).

Have you used your shot already or not?

xvart.

[xvart]

I haven't. But I'm planning to use it today on town consensus. If I'm recruited, I want to be useless to them.

If you wanted to be useless in case you got recruited why didn't you use your kill last night? You weren't worried about being recruited the next night after you replaced in while being a claimed vig? Wouldn't you want to get your kill off immediately after claiming?

xvart.

[xvart]

RC - just quickly (I will post in greater detail tonight) but Chrono soft claimed to RBing Yos and me N0 and N1 (I can't remember which was which though). This listing will help me tremendously.

xvart.

[xvart]

Reaper - I'm on board with your 1962. I think we are both barking up the same tree from different directions.

I thought that during the day it became a double vote?!?

It does. And that's exactly how I said I'd intend to use it, just not until the rest of the votes swing that way. Does that make sense?

I'm not sure if I believe this, as the way you describe and talked about it you were talking as if it was a daykill. You even said L-1, which is standard practice for a daykill. If you had a double vote it would be L-2. I believe the double vote claim got mixed up somewhere along the way (wasn't it ooba who claimed the double vote, or was the TheLonging?). Regardless, everything singer said reads as if it was actually a daykill.

Sleeping with the fishes (from post 0):

• Furcolow (
  Niccolò,

  Unrecruited Enforcer
  ), was taken down Day One. -
  LYNCH
  
  
• dramonic (
  Dante,

  Unrecruited Bodyguard
  ), was murdered Night One. -
  LIKELY CULT KILL, BG OF ANDY
  
  
• zwetschenwasser (
  Gianni,

  Unrecruited Loose Cannon
  ), was executed Night One. -
  OOBA CLAIMED KILL
  
  
• Faraday (
  Martino,

  Unrecruited Goon
  ), was shot down Day Two. -
  LYNCH
  
  
• Seraphim
  Me=Weird (
  Ignazio,

  Recruited Goon
  ), was assassinated Night Two. -
  LACK OF TOWN CLAIMING KILL = LIKELY CULT KILL?

I'm inclined to believe that the flavor of the kills does not bode well for ooba, although if ooba is recruiter this theory is unsubstantiated since all the NKs are likely cult kills. Murdered, executed, and assassinated?

ooba has also done a fair share of setup speculation, which I am inclined to believe he is attempting to fish out reactions since he knows how the recruiting mechanism works. Probably trying to fish out someone who reacts to his speculation to find the other recruiter. Here (saying cults killing or recruiting is wrong) with follow up here and here (suggesting that cults starting with a loose canon makes sense).

Furthermore, here you specifically point out that TheLonging is a loose cannon (as a breadcrumb for you), which just so happens to turn out to actually be true... Maybe you breadcrumbed it so you could call role cop later on but then decided it would confirm you better as a loose canon.

xvart.

[xvart]

OR you could say it like this, Yos2:

WHO THE @#$^ (AS A TOWN VIG) WOULD OPT TO WASTE THEIR ACTION BY DOUBLE-VOTING INSTEAD OF NIGHTKILLING? SUPER SCUM POINTS

This looks like feeble bussing. Yos and singersigner are probably in the same cult.

Especially since I already said that exact same thing, too (with less words).

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm honestly not sure. I would assume I could say something like "double-aim." Or just PM him myself...?

All skepticism aside about Flay being so conspicuously unclear in the role pm, how about you find out and get back to us?

xvart.

[xvart]

Did ooba ever tell us what he wants to do with his life?

xvart.

[xvart]

And singer better not answer before ooba.

xvart.

[xvart]

That section is unique anyway. So even if Singer answers first, Ooba can't copy.

You know this how?

xvart.

[xvart]

Chrono - did you claim your dream job?

xvart.

[xvart]

Not yet.

But seeing as everything else is out there...

Carla, Prostitute (roleblocker), and the ambition is to become a Hollywood star.

Do you know why we got the flavor post prior to today starting? Did you claim your target?

xvart.

[xvart]

So I apologize if I have forgotten something, but we don't know who the other RBer is, correct? Wouldn't it be pertinent to ask Chrono to claim last nights target because they had a lesbian whore fest together? If Chrono claims his target we'll know the other RBer, and unless we believe there is more than two RBers in this game we will know that at least one of those two have been recruited. That might help us determine who the recruiter is once we can question both RBers, right?

xvart.

[xvart]

Have you paid attention?

I claimed Target. M=W. The dead Goon.

I Was Roleblocked

resulting in Lesbian whore fest.

Apparently not close enough. I'm losing track of all the PRs and their nightly business. But, I'm not sure I buy the whole RB of Me=Weird. It just seems a little convenient that you RBed a dead scum. I just don't understand why there would be a big flavor post about a RBer being RBed, unless they targeted each other. I'm guessing you are trying to throw off the other RBer and your faction will NK him/her tonight. Who were your other RB attempts N0 and N1?

xvart.

[xvart]

Well so far just Yos2 and Xvart. in that order.

<.<[/quote]
Oh holy hell. I even said that like three posts ago... Time to re read I guess...

xvart.

[xvart]

RC: ooba, Friend, and maybe chrono. Until someone can explain to me the no alignment result on ooba is not a good reason to think he is the recruiter I don't anticipate changing my vote.

Also singersinger should shoot herself .. Scum would then have to decide between roleblocking her and Andrius or Robo ..

I don't understand this line of thinking.

Of the people hopping aboard my suddenly-popular wagon, Gandalf's was the worst.

aim: Gandalf

So your only qualifiers for scum is who is voting you? Self preservation is scum motivation?

xvart.

[xvart]

What doesn't make sense is you saving up the kill for two nights while there were recruiters around ..
A scummy person claims a vig - correct play is for them to shoot themselves - saves a lynch ..

The point is, her shooting herself is irrelevant if she gets recruited tonight (unless she submits her NK immediately and recruiting has no effect on actions already submitted). But I do agree that singer is not being truthful. singer needs to use her double vote today. Barring that failing, she should be on my list of three instead of chrono, so updated:

ooba, Friend, singersinger

xvart.

[xvart]

I never would have pegged ooba as a follower of Pie.

The logic in this case is more sound than usual. If the scum have no night kill, we have no reason to give them one when we can just have it kill itself.

Did you miss everything I just said?

xvart.

[xvart]

Also. I swear. xvart, we need to hydra soon, I think my brain might explode otherwise.

Done. As soon as I die in some games.

Soooo why aren't we lynching the obv_recruit? Its better than a town lynch.

Who is the town lynch you are referring to in this post?

Im starting to dislike xvarts line of questioning as well.

What line of questioning are you talking about?

Didn't I establish that his investigation is worthless tonight and the only possible way to gain anything is for him to claim his target?

Where did this get explained and how is this feasible? Looking... OOOOhhhh... this:

Yos: I don't really feel like following the cop is worthwhile on this one. If the cult doc or RB are scum, we'll never know because they'll either block or recruit Andrius. Basically, if either one of them were scum, he would have to be scum too. So the result we're going to hear from Andrius will be that they are innocent or that he's been RB'd. Either way, we will have no information. Andrius is dead in the water and is no longer useful as a power role. Unless there's some other unclaimed power role, we're on our own now. I don't think his investigations are worth anything now. There is only a slim chance that he could find the cult leader tonight, and you don't want him to claim his investigation target.

This doesn't make any sense. You are basing your entire conclusion on Robo and Chrono (or the other RBer, which is scum if Chrono is town) being recruited already. And what does a cult doctor have to do with a cop investigation? The last sentence doesn't make any sense to me either, considering you think that Andy should claim his target. Please elaborate on this in greater more explicit detail.

I will switch to aiming Friend after we get a vote count. Remember, singer is doing the double vote.

Holster
Aim: Friend

xvart.

[xvart]

What part of this is confusing.

I follow that. The part I don't follow is why it is important for Andy to claim his targets, as that isn't mentioned anywhere in your list.

xvart.

[xvart]

Okay then. Nobody else vote Friend. Singer do your double vote.

xvart.

[xvart]

Oh, yes. Claim.

xvart.

[xvart]

Yos2 - so what is the recruit mechanic? When does it occur? Can the cult either kill or recuit each night; cannot kill; or what? Was your faction responsible for dramatic's death? How about Zwet's death? When were you recruited?

xvart.

[xvart]

I can't call Yos' bluff and it irks me

I can hate Katsuki with every fibre of my being though, and that's working out well.

Welcome to LYLO kids, let's win.

What do you mean you can't call his bluff? Something about this post just makes my teeth curl, especially considering how adamant you were about Andy being worthless as a cop, and now you seem to be believing his results. I'm starting to have conspiracy theory galore running through my head; but for you to be the cult recruiter that would mean you recruited Andy already and he fake claimed a result on you yesterday to clear you. Either Yos2 is on the other cult team or CultAndy called a sacrifice gambit to get his results validated today for the fake claim yesterday.

Your play does seem awfully Cult Recruiterish with your low profile and defending Yos2. Plus you have only voted for people that have flipped town (outside of your RVS on Yos2 [hmmm...]) and Chronopie (or undetermined alignment).

Skimming your ISO only solidifies my Recruiter read of you; but I need to go back and read more closely and check the context.

And what does Kutsuki have anything to do with anything?

But for now,

VOTE: Lord Gurgi

xvart.

[xvart]

I'll be getting to this game by tonight. But in the meantime...

Yos2 - did you get a flavor message when Chrono RBed you N0?

xvart.

[xvart]

OOOOOhhhhh... good stuff coming in a bit. I believe I have narrowed one of the recruiters down to two. Compiling information now.

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart. That is a shitty vote.
I investigated Gurgi N2. He was town then, THEREFORE IS NOT RECRUITER.

Maybe, but I'm having a hard time believing that you, Robo, and now RC are all not recruited, so I'm not really ready to clear anyone especially since you being cleared hinges on Robo's claim being true and not being recruited. And how do you clear RC just because he claimed? I'm not even convinced that Yos2 isn't a recruiter. He hasn't claimed any role that can be confirmed in anyway.

Yos2 - did you get a flavor pm when chrono blocked you?

So, all that to say: hopefully you guys can take me at my word; I'm going to reveal my investigations now, in hopes we can pull this off:

Night 0

- I investigated Faraday (undeterminable) - Which is WHY I WANTED HIM DEAD. I thought he was a recruiter. (and yes, total wifom occurred on what would have happened to me if he was a don's son. I ended up believing that he WAS a don's son, and that I would NOT have died. which is why I wanted him lynched ASAP. screw you guys for lynching furcolow, I wanted to lynch Faraday D1 ).

Night 1

- I investigated ooba (undeterminable) - same general result as Andrius. Due to Faraday's flip, I was not so sure, but I received DIFFERENT FLAVOR than I did with Faraday so I am still not sure. All my WIFOM about ooba/singersigner STILL HOLDS TRUE. It was completely honest. I think ooba still has a chance of being a recruiter!

What was the difference in the flavor between Faraday and ooba?

I pointed out already that you can't have an investigation today. Who did the mysterious second RB block if not you? The cult-doc in order to recruit you? You are thick as a brick.

I was roleblocked last night.

xvart.

[xvart]

So we know, based on the claims, that there are at least two roleblockers.

Claimed RB's

N0 -

Yos2 (chrono)

, RC (maybe?, no result on Faraday)

N1 - Andrius (maybe? no result on ooba),

xvart (chrono)

, RC (maybe? no result on ooba)

N2 -

Me=Weird (chrono, failed)

, chrono (unknown blocker)
N3 -

Flameaxe (chrono)

, xvart (unknown blocker)

Unless there is a third RBer (which I doubt), the N1 actions are very telling. Either one of Andrius, ReaperCharlie, or I is a recruiter and lying about being roleblocked. Chrono isn't the recruiter because he wouldn't claim a RB on me in case I counterclaimed an action that succeeded (unless he and I are on the same team).

I was going to wait until Yos2 claimed, but seeing as he already admitted to being on a cult faction, I don't see the need to wait. The kicker:

I did not get a flavor pm the night chrono roleblocked me and I did get one last night

; and since Flameaxe claimed he got a flavor pm last night after being RBed by Chrono Flamaxe is lying. So Flameaxe and chrono are cult together. So unless we think RecruiterChrono would be so bold to claim a RB on me without knowing that I would counterclaim him or not, he can only be the Recruiter if he recruited a RBer N0 and claimed the RB his minion took; but then the same would be true of Yos2 counterclaiming on N0; unless Yos2 is the other RBer and was recruited N0 by Chrono.

TL;DR

- One of the recruiters is either RC, Andrius, or I. Flameaxe and Chrono are cult together.

UNVOTE:

xvart.

[xvart]

Shit, I should have waited for Yos2 to claim... If he had claimed flavor text N0 then we would know he, Chrono, and Flameaxe are all on the same faction.

xvart.

[xvart]

You haven't claimed as far as I can see. You can wait until yos2 has claimed but now you've revealed what your looking for, is there much point?

By Yos2 claiming I meant claiming whether or not he received a flavor pm or not; since I did not receive one when Chrono blocked me and Flameaxe received one when Chrono blocked him. It doesn't really matter since we know Yos2 is scum; but if he had claimed to have received a flavor pm when Chrono RBed him we (or at least I) would know that the three of them are all on the same faction; but it might have helped narrow down the field for determining faction alignments and cross checking behavior.

xvart.

[xvart]

o_O

I call BS.

And why would there be Girl on Girl action N2/D3 Flavour if I wasn't an RB...

You call BS on what? I'm not disputing that you are a RBer; in fact I thought I was pretty clear that you were a RBer (although I did speculate under what conditions you might not be a RBer; but I think those speculations are unlikely). I don't have any commentary about the girl on girl action; but that is significantly different than personalized role pms to people that were blocked. Why did Flameaxe get a pm saying he was roleblocked and why did I not receive a pm?

What do you think about my conclusion that one of RC, Andy, or I has to be a recruiter? Why did you not say anything about that since my commentary about you and Flameaxe is independent of the conclusion I drew from the three RB targets on N1?

xvart.

[xvart]

Nevermind about Chrono and Flameaxe; Mr. Flay just pm'ed me and said I was supposed to receive a pm N1 but it was never sent.

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry about my lack of posting over the weekend. I haven't really had the motivation to go back and look at Andy, Robo, RCs, and Chrono's target claims, when they occurred, and parse out which of RC and Andy I think is the recruiter. My plan is to have a vote up by the end of the day tomorrow with supporting reasoning.

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry again. Super busy at work and I'm leaving tomorrow morning for a conference; but I expect to have plenty of time tomorrow night to finally put my thoughts together about the RBers and RC/Andy and their relationships.

I see I didn't generate too many (if any) comments about there being three roleblockers in the game. I don't understand why we aren't looking at some of the claimed failed attempts on RBing, (i.e. Chrono's failed block on Me=Weird, and both RC and Andy's failed blocks on ooba).

preview edit:

Robo

- presumably yes; at least that has been the assumption I have been operating under.

xvart.

[xvart]

My flavor about

ooba on Night 1

(second night) was that I sneaked into his room somehow, knocked him out with my gun, rifled through all his stuff, and

could not find "

anything

to indicate where he stands or who he supports

. Then I heard a noise and slipped out of his room and back down the hallway. This leads me to believe that

HE IS ONE OF THE BROTHERS/RECRUITERS

with some kind of investigation immunity.

Excellent. This is good. This also clears up my suspicions of the three N1 RBers and leaves the other RB still unaccounted for.

Aim: ooba

Andy - I suggest you do a flavor recap of your investigation results, too.

xvart.

[xvart]

Hi xvart,

Let me start by saying that I think your one of the better newbie's on the circuit at the moment, I enjoy modding with you and I have enjoyed playing with you and I hope you hang around for a while. However...

Why are you being completely retarded at the moment?

I mean yes, ooba doesn't look good and for all intents and purposes has probably been recruited but put it this way, he's claimed a kill, (zwet), from what we have gathered the role is most likely a vig/double vote one shot role, singer showed us the double vote. So he isn't a recruiter. Your also taking the word of a "enforcer" who we have no evidence to suggest he hasn't been recruited. As I say Robo claimed Day 3, so it is likely his last post is bullshit and is now recruited. However Andy, will still be town, as up until then Robo has protected him. RC hasn't had this luxury, his targets have been somewhere between iffy and terrible, and you want me to suspect, as one of my top 3 candidates that you think ooba is the best place for your vote? I think you are either seriously not thinking or your giving away one of your cult buddies.

Hi Prozac - I greatly appreciate the preamble as it does mean a lot to me; although it is unnecessary since I never take anything personally. But, the fact remains that ooba has more evidence against him than anyone else in the game. The fact that he claimed a kill means nothing to me because he could have claimed a N0recruited loose canon kill or killed as the recruiter if he has a kill.

Give me some actual evidence on someone else and then I'll consider a different voting option.

Once ooba flips recruiter I think we will have a pretty good idea of some of his recruits.

xvart.

[xvart]

Once ooba flips recruiter I think we will have a pretty good idea of some of his recruits.

And who might those be?

Well... based only on preliminary responses and not going back to ISO's to cross check opinions on the almost ooba lynch D3(?) ooba's recruitee's could be Robo and Erg0. When I posted that comment originally I was thinking that Chrono would be a recruitee but I think his turn around is genuine; and he was on the original ooba lynch. If ooba flips recruiter I think that implicates Yos2 as a member of his team because I remember him being anti-ooba lynch when his wagon was building before.

xvart.

[xvart]

I get the distinct feeling nothing is being accomplished any more. I also get the feeling that Ooba is a recruiter for the team that Andrius and RC are not on. I doubt that their cult is just Recruiter + 2 cops, since I think that cult recruited Robo first, therefore they are part of the larger cult. We don't want to lynch someone the larger cult wants to lynch.

TL:DR; I won't lynch Ooba, because I can't honestly believe you're all still town.

Huh? You think ooba is a recruiter but you won't lynch him? Isn't lynching a recruiter profit for everyone? And I don't believe all this nonsense about larger and smaller cults. It's pretty sensationalized and extreme. Fear tactics at their best. Assuming that the cult can either recruit or kill in any given night, it's likely that the teams are not as big as is being suggested.

Assuming that ooba is who he says he is (for the sake of argument) we have two kills we can likely attribute to cults: dram and Me=Weird (both unclaimed). Like I said before, I doubt one cult would make both kills as that would put them too far behind in the recruiting process, provided the assumption that the other cult successfully recruited each night. When Me=Weird died, if one cult killed both dram and Me=Weird, they would be at 2 members to the other cults 4 members at the start of day 3.

So... if the kills are split up (barring any loose canon recruits), each team would have 3 members right now (with a 100% successful recruit rate). Now given all the possible attempts at claimed roles, robo protecting Andy, cross recruiting, I seriously doubt that either team has been successful at recruiting 100% of the time.

---

singersinger using her double vote was not a dumb move. It may have been dumb not to use it before, but if she was town we couldn't risk her being recruited and then using her kill on town. It marginally verified her role. And if she is already recruited then it wasted her cult night shot regardless.

---

Again, give one piece of evidence that suggests someone is a recruiter that is better than two claimed cops getting a no result on someone. By comparison, we have the flavor results on a town investigation (Lord Gurgi) and we have the flavor results on scum (Yos2). What other options are there? The no result is unexplained in every possible way. I can't think of any role related function (outside of ooba's role) that would give a no result on ooba, given that we know how the roleblockers work and what their results are.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm a bit frazzled xvart.

Why are you frazzled?

I hope the cult just got scared.

Don't you mean cult

s

? Whoops!

Well shit; my cult team looks pretty BA at the moment. 100% successful recruit rate, plus two claimed cops and a cult recruiting doctor... versus a recruiter, a depleted claimed loose canon, an publicly known member, and some other random dude.

xvart.

[xvart]

Xvart, what do you think of this:
- What do you make of Faraday (An unrecruited VT) giving no result N0 as according to RC? This seems to throw the biggest spanner into the "Ooba is recruiter because of no-result" theory.

And the fact that zwet claimed to be targeting dramonic.

I believe the flavor of Faraday being body guarded. I doubt zwet would lie about guarding dram N0 so all flavor and evidence suggests there is another bodyguard.

xvart.

[xvart]

Sorry, mixed up names. Let me get this straight: You think town zwet killed town dram (claimed bodyguard)? Or was town zwet targetting claimed cop Andy? Why would town zwet do that?

xvart.

[xvart]

Zwet is a LC, not a bodyguard.
Don't buy your kill theory. Simpler explanation is zwet killed dram and one other unclaimed LC killed Me=weird..

But wouldn't you expect said LC to claim said kill? I honestly don't find it probable that a used one-shot vig would care about keeping a kill a secret, would you?

Unless he was recruited.

The thing you are incorrectly assuming is that either cult would want to give up a recruitment in order to try to kill. I highly doubt that; we wouldn't, and it's highly unlikely the other side would either. It would be a pretty terrible play; there's no reason for it. Recruiting a townie is always better then killing one, and of course if you kill instead of recruit, you lose ground to the other cult as well; it'd just be bad play all around. And if a cult was going to give up a recruit in order to kill someone, then dram or me=weird? That dosn't make any sense either; a desperate cult might give up their recruit in order to kill a power role (we considered doing it in order to kill Andreus, since he was clearly going to investigate me), but there's no logical reason any cult recruiter would give up a kill to kill either one of them.

Well I suppose it depends on the recruiter and how threatened he/she was by a cop and the directions he was looking as to whether it was more viable to keep recruiting or try and kill the the cop. It also depends on if the recruiter could pull off a fake claim gambit and "clear" himself by killing instead of recruiting. The quotes by zwet are interesting as I had forgotten he had said those, but that is peripheral in my opinion due to the no results on ooba being the primary damning evidence on him.

I still note that no-one else claims to have received messages about being RB'd that aren't

my

targets...

So the other RB must have been hitting those that are either a) dead now, or b) don't care to mention it, even though there is no way to infer role merely from the fact that they've been RB'd. Whether that implies scum motivations or merely apathy, idk.

Unless you are lying about your target last night and actually RBed me, I already claimed to have received a flavor pm last night.

xvart.

[xvart]

You think that me and Andrius are in a cult? I've been protecting the cop constantly and you just assume we are in the cult because it can fit if you shove it into the puzzle hard enough?

Listen, you have NO backing to this accusation. I could say you are a recruit but does that mean you are?

So stop putting people into categories unless you got some frikkin evidence, otherwise you can just shut up.

Well it isn't too hard to imagine that you would be recruited after your claim. And speaking of frikkin evidence, how about you vote ooba who is the only person who has any shred of evidence for being cult recruiter?

RC's 2500 is gold. I'm glad he still has the energy to repeat the case. The fact that the ooba lynch is reaching such resistance makes me believe he is part of the larger cult, whatever that mean. And by larger cult, I mean his cult size is large enough to fillabuster this to the end unless we get enough town and opposing cult support.

Reaper, plz for once in this game just calm down, your CAPS LAWKE RAGES aren't helping me want an Ooba lynch at all.

Also, I saw in someones post a quote where you said that you thought me and Andrius were recruitees.

Can we please stop the never ending so-and-so is a recruitee nonsense? It's distracting, unless there is evidence for the person being lynched actually being a recruitee I don't see the purpose to discussing whether or not you think you couldn't be recruited or not, or anyone else for that matter. After we lynch ooba we'll have a pretty good idea who is on his team, so we can discuss recruitees then as it will help us narrow down the other cult recruiter.

You cultists know you're just arguing with each other at this point, right?

Says the guy not aiming for anyone.

xvart.

[xvart]

Quagmire - RC did a decent enough summary of events when Datox recently replaced in.

As for the current wagon on ooba, here.

xvart.

[xvart]

The evidence against the ooba wagon is that he is who he says he is: a loose cannon and therefore not a recruiter. However, the alternative wagon was Erg0 based on general lurkiness and not really taking a stand (I think, there are a couple others like this as well so I might be getting the peeps mixed up).

The fact that ooba has evidence against him (no result on cop investigation) is more than any of the alternative wagons.

xvart.

[xvart]

What about a gandalf lynch. I prefer it to Ooba, but anything is better than no lynch.

Then how about you actually put a vote down?

xvart.

[xvart]

It's pretty obvious that the large cult wants Ooba eliminated, but it's not enough for them to win, or they would have hammered already. That's good. I'm more inclined to lynch Gandalf since he's third in popularity and I don't think Quag is particularly a better lynch.

I actually would think the opposite: that the large cult doesn't want ooba dead and has the numbers to practically necessitate everyone that is not in their cult to coordinate against them. Anyone town and everyone not in ooba's cult that has not voted needs to put a vote on ooba now.

The fact of the matter is that ooba has evidence against him (whether or not you think that is good evidence is beside the point now). The other suggested people that might be recruiter are Erg0, Prozac, Gandalf, and for pretty much the same reason: lurking, flying under the radar, etc. So... with three options there, you want to take a chance that one of them is more likely the recruiter based on what? Where is the distinction? Why vote gandalf over Erg0 or Prozac and vice versa?

ooba has more evidence against him than the three that are all guilty of possibly being a recruiter based on similar playstyle.

xvart.

[xvart]

Um... What happened? And we didn't wait to see if Yos2 would have hammered ooba why?

xvart.

[xvart]

Well that's good news. While we wait for you, I think I'll go with a

Aim: Quagmire

I could go for Prozac, too. I don't suppose whoever is responsible for the ooba no result wants to fess up and give some information, either?

xvart.

[xvart]

Prozac - did you RB chrono N2?

xvart.

[xvart]

Prozac - did you RB chrono N2?

xvart.

Yes, that was me partially not paying attention and partially going after someone who really annoyed me the previous day who I thought would harm town more than help it.

So your decision to RB chrono had nothing to do with him already being outted as a RBer?

So hey we should have a massclaim because it cuts down the suspect pool and forces people to commit which is only a good thing for town at this point.
RC is scum or an idiot (Both) if he thinks delaying a massclaim is in favour of the town.

Ps. I can't believe RC was dumb enough to think I might be a fourth LC. Aside from the fact I showed my hand at the end of day 4, if I was a LC, I wouldn't have been worried about all that Ooba nonsense D4 and I would have shot him N4, not Ooba.

The suspect pool is pretty small as it is. I don't see the benefit of mass claiming now.

xvart.

[xvart]

I want an answer from Prozac before anyone hammers.

xvart.

[xvart]

So ITT Darox is recruited by Quagmire?

xvart.

[xvart]

Damn you, RC. We almost attempted to kill you last night, but instead opted for killing Yos2. I was RBed twice. I'm going to go ahead and fill in some of the gaps that Yos2 hasn't said since my recruiter is dead. It is a recruit or kill mechanic. Recruiting happens "instantly" so if the recruiter sends it in immediately at night that person immediately comes in to the fold. Next, Prozac's RB functions somewhat as a JKer because the nights he RBed me I wasn't allowed to talk to the membership in the QT, not even to say I couldn't talk to them.

Anyone on the recruiting team can do the kill.
The recruiter can give away his teams next night kill or recruit in exchange to remove a vote on the recruiter. This can be done everyday.
We were also given a couple fake names to use as necessary.
We do not have daytalk.

RC is most likely an investigator because I guarded Faraday on N0 and he was turned away at the door. I also know that Me=Weird was recruited N0 so it isn't a recruiting mechanism.
Andy - why didn't you investigate Flameaxe last night when you were told to do so?

Don't worry, I'm not going to go all Yos2 on everyone because my team has nothing to lose now that my recruiter is dead. It is in my teams best interest to have me function as if I was town and help find the other recruiter today.

xvart.

[xvart]

I am not in Yos2's Cult. My guess is that if they were successful in recruiting every night they are at most two recruits ahead of us. Also, I went back and checked; the recruiters will not be found guilty by any investigation methods unless the recruiter commits a kill. I missed this the first time around because it was mixed in with the name claims when I was spouting off the Recruiter abilities.

I'll probably put together some suggestions on who I think is on the other team later tonight. I just want to make sure that by doing so I don't give away the farm on my Cult's membership base or make sure the other Cult doesn't get information about my team, first.

xvart.

[xvart]

I trust little of what xvart said. Whether he is in the large or small cult is irrelevant. Because Yos claimed he was the "smaller cult" but xvart claimed "dead recruiter" so we have some discrepancies. I distrust his claim that he tried to kill RC, because, well, if xvart is going down it'll make RC look more town that he isn't. (If you're town, forgive me. But I can't assume you are because of Harry Potter Mafia.)

Well we can have the conversation about how you can't trust the information I have, but I have provided information about the Cults that Yos2 has not. He can confirm or deny any of it if he wishes, but I know some pretty specific details that have been discussed before. Yos2 is not in my group, that much I know. I also know that we didn't recruit last night because Quag was dead, so we are at the very least one recruit behind if his group was perfectly successful. Knowing some other inside information I know that we are at least one member behind on top of that, but I am being specifically vague in this area because I don't want the other Cult to have specific information about how big my team is.

My recruiter is dead. My Cult is at a disadvantage now if collectively we don't get the other recruiter today.

As for killing RC; I said I thought about it because I knew he was instructed to investigate me. I tried to kill Yos2 because he was the only confirmed person from the other Cult and we couldn't risk not hitting Cult and considering the field of possible Cults is pretty small I am betting we lynch the other recruiter today. Regardless, I wasn't able to do anything last night because two luscious ladies left me buckling at the knees all night.

I do not trust xvart. He claimed scum and is spouting potential mis-information ot throw us off. He should be censured. Along with Yos, who self-censures. Gurgi too. Hell, Darox too. Again, any loose cannons can feel free to shoot these people at will.

The reason Yos2 can self censure is his group is in a better position than mine. I have to provide information that will help the town because the only chance we have is collaborating. Trust me, Yos2's Cult is more than likely bigger than my Cult or at least of equal size, depending on their luck recruiting.

xvart.

[xvart]

So the town knows that the two RBers are not on the same team. We also know that two people have committed night actions that would be beneficial as Cult: Prozac RBing the claimed RBer whatever night that was. And Andy investigating a proven RBer looking for a recruiter.

I'll post more later about the bodyguard issue and respond to the other comments, but I wanted to throw this out there while a few people were on.

xvart.

[xvart]

@xvart: What insight can you shed on the situation about why there was bodyguard flavor for Quag and not for Flameaxe? Had you been specifically bodyguarding Quag to make sure he wasn't NK'd by some unclaimed loose cannon or the other cult?

It's unclear to me. I did not submit an action to bodyguard Quagmire last night; but I suppose it is possible that Quag told Flay to have me BG him without me knowing or telling the QT. Like I said, the leadership in our QT was fairly non existent. I did offer to BG him with the understanding that if he got investigated and I blocked them he would be in a hot seat unless we could spin it as the other Cult has a BG that set him up for a lynch knowing he would most likely be investigated. It wasn't very plausible as actually working, or at least that was my opinion when our QT went silent. I didn't commit an action (to my knowledge) the night ooba died and I didn't get any flavor pm the N0 when I gaurded Faraday when RC investigated him and I didn't get any flavor N4 so I can't make the comparison there. I'm sending a pm to Flay to see if Quag ordered me to Bodyguard.

Anyway, you guys don't have a recruiter now, which pretty much makes you a standard mafia group. The biggest threat to your cult isn't us, now; you still outnumber us, we can't recruit you, and if you're as large as I think you are there probably aren't all that many pro-town people left to be recruited anyway, so the lack of your recruiter hardly matters anymore. The biggest threat to your cult is the surviving pro-town power roles. If you get rid of us, how well do you think a standard mafia group going to do against 2 cops and 2 roleblockers in endgame?

Yeah, we are a standard mafia group just as you are with the addition that you can still recruit, be investigation immune, raise lynch thresholds, etc.

Unless you are some of the worst town players I've ever played with, Prozac and one or two of BBM/Darox is town.

I'm pretty sure Prozac has been recruited by Yos2's group.

What I'd like from everyone who has claimed a power role, is for them to claim all their night actions again. That'll help me so that I don't have to ISO hunt all of you.
Reading the thread while knowing how the actions play out should help, especially with recruits/killings/ investigations/blocks.

Just as a FYI, I'm not going to claim anymore of my actions unless it will help nail the other Cult. And I think that is fair considering how much I've already given.

I never investigated either of them.
RC investigated Chrono, not me.

Sorry; I mixed up your results again.

Yos2 can still be a recruiter because the night he got exposed he was investigated there were no kills at all.

How many VT claims/flips have there been?

xvart.

[xvart]

You claiming bodyguard, yes?

Yes, I think I did in my first post. I may not have said "I AM BODYGUARDZ" but I think I said I bodyguarded Faraday N0. My name is Federico.

So wait. I only pulled a guilty on Quagmire because he killed someone N4? He killed ooba, yes?

It's unclear to me (I sent Flay a question asking if Quag ordered me to BG without my knowledge). I can't imagine that he committed the kill and since they were roughed up by a bodyguard that might have something to do with it.

And if someone wants to tell me who ooba shot, that'd be great.

ooba said he shot zwet.

Wait, xvart, was M=W with you or Yos?

Me=Weird was on Yos2's team.

xvart.

[xvart]

xvart, does the Recruiter have to be the killer (assuming he is alive), if you decide to kill instead of recruit?

No. We still have the factional ability to kill even though our recruiter is dead.

xvart.

[xvart]

No. He can order anyone to do anything he wants within their abilities or his (other than ordering me to do another persons action, i.e. I can't RB for someone else).

xvart.

[xvart]

That I won't answer either way until it becomes relevant to finding the other recruiter. Sorry.

xvart.

[xvart]

Yeah, sorry; that will have to remain a secret for now.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'll be posting in about half an hour, so I'll get to any outstanding questions then and if you have any others that you think I might answer post 'em up.

xvart.

[xvart]

I'm not going to either verify or disagree any part of your claims at the moment, but if you were telling the truth, you claimed that a cult recruiter who didn't kill that night would show up as innocent, correct? I was investigated when there wasn't a kill, and showed up as a recruit, so if your claim was accurate, I can't possibly be a cult leader.

Your right. My apologies. The only way you can be a recruiter is if the investigation on you was falsified (meaning Andy is in your Cult group) and your Cult is comfortable in size and you could just sit back under no scrutiny, but that theory is completely unrelated to my previous observation of you still possibly being the recruiter and that basis is, as you have shown, wrong. Andy - file Yos2 as a cult recruiter away as tin foil #10 if you are keeping tin foil theories that implicate you.

Hey xvart, sorry to ask another (stupid) question, but could you bodyguard and kill at the same time?

I'm not answering this on the basis that it could help you narrow down my other Cult members later on. If it helps you narrow down the other recruiter I'll answer.

Why has this game stalled? we're so close to taking out the other recruiter.

We are? It feels more like a game of "Follow the two incompetent cops"

Well how about you contribute something? We have been discussing things that aren't even related to cops and whether or not they are competent.

Well we've ruled out all but three people (maybe four). Being yourself, Flameaxe, Gurgi, (and maybe Robo).

We can't rule out Prozac, either; because he could be claiming a recruited persons night actions.

Therefore, we know that only a few people can be recruiter, and those with

Confirmable

PRs (i.e Andy, RC, Poro, Myself, Xvart-scum, SS I guess), are definitely Clear. Robo's cannot be Confirmed, unless the remaining recruiter is whiling to blow an attempt. (unless Erg0/Quagmire already blew an attempt. Xvart?)

I don't understand what you are asking me here.

I think what we really need to do, is post the same information on every new page, and ask the same questions over and over again until maybe someone answers it...again.

I'm legitimately not recruited (so I'd really like a town win on this one, guys). Isn't that cool?

See my response to Darox above.

I think everyone who has been reading my posts is fully aware of my role at this point.

Anyone else want to claim scum, or corroborate what other claimed cultists have said?

How about you spell it out for us if everyone knows already?

Who says he is the cop? He did. I could say I frikkin own a Unicorn that is a rockstar but it doesn't make it true.

Except he claimed flavor that I have confirmed. He was turned away at the door when I BGed Faraday. So either he is a cop, or another role that would be turned away. RC is not the other recruiter because the Yos2's team recruited Me=Weird N0.

Chrono, xvart could be lying about the attempted kill on RC. Come on. You're better than that, I know it and you know it.

I didn't attempt to kill him but we considered it because he was going to investigate me, but we knew he wasn't the recruiter and may not even be recruited. Yos2 was a guarantee Cult hit so at least we would keep their membership growing.

I don't really get how you think you can force me to claim anything. Your threat to lynch me is empty, and I'm sure you know it.

I'll go ahead and say it but I will only vote today if I am convinced of the other recruiter or Yos2.

Still haven't heard back from Flay on my question to him.

xvart.

[xvart]

Okay... so some posting explosion. I also want to say that I took my dog for a walk and had a low blood sugar induced thought process involving organizing roleblockers and cop actions but now that my blood sugar is up again, I can't really remember it but I think I can piece it together because it's all jumbled. Give me a few minutes but I think I might have something here. Reading the new posts.

xvart.

[xvart]

It's quite simple: We cannot confirm Robo's ability, unless a recruiter attempts to recruit Andy despite Robo's protection. Did Erg0 or Quagmire attempt to do so?

We never tried to recruit Andy after robo's claim.

What about the start of the day results PM's nonsense that all but confirms that RC is either in a cult with Andrius or they're both enforcers that I pointed out?

You know, that thing that everyone ignored that further ruined my faith in this towns ability to read.

What are you talking about? Can you explain it in simple terms for us boneheads?

Hmmm, interesting new stuff. I was afraid I was gonna come back to 1 or 2 new replies, but you guys haven't disappointed me.... my favorite part is this, though:

Robo votes for ME -> who has been cleared by ANDRIUS since N0 -> who has been allegedly "protected" from being recruited by ROBO since N1.

Soooo either Robo doesn't believe HIMSELF... OR... Robo is a recruiter who is sick of me digging up dirt on him and stirring the pot about his un-confirmedness. Guess which.

Unvote; Vote: Robocopter87

Actually I would be behind pursuing this. I had forgotten that robo replaced vezok and then we go back to the whole Seraphim replaced out because Vezok recruited him. I think Erg0 was the one that initially proposed this idea. Cult doctor isn't actually a bad fake claim, and even if there was more than one he doesn't risk a counter claim unless the others were masons. I wish we had a better idea of whether or not BGs function as this role and would turn away a recruiter, because then this role would seem redundant, especially with there being only one. AND with the RBers working against the Recruiters (Quag got double roleblocked remember)... Seems like an unnecessary role. This I'm willing to get behind.

NO, I THINK WE'VE LOST BECAUSE ITS DAY SIX. SIMPLE MATH.

Actually, if we can believe Yos2's frustration responding to my post callling his Cult bigger and you believe my claim that I think his Cult is bigger the town might have more members than you think. But again, we have to protect ourselves from the other Cult knowing how many people are in our respective sides so you can't really believe either of us in this regard.

re: Andy's 3021:

Orange is: Yosarian2, Robo, Andy,

Poro

Chrono (with his recent defiance against voting Robo)

Fixed that with my guesses. I need to go back and cross check this with the information I have and figure out when each was probably recruited. What night did Yos2 get investigated and discovered to be scum?

If robo is the recruiter then Andy is definitely recruited. There would be no point in not recruiting the person you said to be protecting because my team could have tried to recruit him, killed him, or Andy could have investigated someone on Robo's team and would have no reason to withhold that information.

Hmm...

Organising Cop and RB actions...

Sounds like a good idea. Except you're confirmed scum. Maybe Andy could do it. He's probably the only player currently alive that I'd trust to have the town's best interests at heart (apart from myself obviously, but the others might not trust me.)

Yes, my thinking (and this isn't quite what I remember thinking I had) is that, and while I can't speak for my team as a whole at the moment, but we kill Yos2 tonight. The RBers are a liability to my team so we designate them who to roleblock. We also designate who the cops investigate and if either of them come back with a slut fest in their room we know that one of the RBers is related to that person the cop was supposed to investigate. Of course, if robo flips recruiter then you will be able to trust his results as if he was looking for my team, but he might clear the person if they are on a team together.

Flameaxe said he got a message when Chrono blocked him, right? So if Flameaxe is telling the truth about being a goon then everyone should get a message about being slutted up overnight so we can tell who didn't RB their target. Obviously Yos2's group and my group will be able to plan accordingly to this but if we plan it out right we should be able to narrow down the recruiter (if we don't lynch him today) pretty closely.

Quick question. If you were to be roleblocked again, and you knew so in advance, who would be the designated second to make your cult's kill?

In that situation, I would suggest... oh wait. You almost got me there with your Jedi mind games.

xvart.

[xvart]

@Chrono: If you read this before I read pages back, what was the reason against Gurgi?

He's not Chrono's recruiter I think was the gist of it.

The other point of my poorly explained plan is that it helps narrow down connections to the RBers.

xvart.

[xvart]

@Chrono: If you read this before I read pages back, what was the reason against Gurgi?

The only possible recruiters are Gurgi, Darox, Yourself, and possibly Robo. (Given that Xvart said that CRs are InvImmune, meaning "recruited" results rule out those particular players, but "Innocent" results leave the door open.)

Therefore Lynch each in turn works for me.

Lynch in turn? Best case scenario? You are on Yos2's team. I like your "lynching in turn with Robo at the end." Tell me, what do you think about having a Cult Doctor, two Bodyguards that most likely protect against recruiting, and two Roleblockers that can block the recruiting process?

@SS: Because your waste of your shot on Double Voting looked like an attempt to prove role, therefore attempting to pass yourself off as a townie. (fyi: wasting your only kill wasn't a townie aligned vig to do. Therefore scum.)

Actually, using her shot was a very town thing to do because recruiting is instant, so if she still had her shot at the end of the day when she got recruited she would have had another shot for us to use, a la kill and recruit.

xvart.

[xvart]

@ Xvart/Yos: So do you know what happens if both cults attempt to recruit the same person one night?

I would imagine that since it is instantaneous (so to speak) that whoever sent the pm to Flay first would get the recruit and the other person would fail. For example, if Quag sent the pm right at the beginning of night that person immediately (upon receiving Flay's pm) got access to communication with Quag. If Yos2's waited until the end of the night and tried to recruit the same person, it would likely fail in some way, shape, or form.

Another little tidbit of information about how the Cults work is that we were not provided a QT to talk in by Flay, and Erg0 sent me the one he had setup on his own. I don't see how that really helps, but just interesting to note.

xvart.

[xvart]

Andy - what did you think about my directing the recruiter night actions?

xvart.

[xvart]

So at this point I'm just waiting for Andrius to stumble onto the right answer for the wrong reasons (I have zero faith in his ability to get the right reasons) and tell us all what it is so I can watch everyone sheep him and continue to not get heard.

What do you think of my plan to direct the RBers? Do think it benefits town?

xvart.

[xvart]

Hey Prozac - is your RB ability more a Jailkeep? The night you RBed me I was restricted from using my QT.

xvart.

[xvart]

Please actually do the work of playing the game. Making a case. Setting an example.

Being the change you want to see.

[xvart]

Actually, I don't know it specifically. My invitation/threat to join Porfirio's forces only said I now won with that faction. I would imagine that it is once all our rivals are dead and we make up a majority of the town.

xvart.

[xvart]

I might have just forgot, but Poro, can you tell me why you RB'd Chrono N2?
Thanks.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2633358

You know what this game is reminding me of... Thrillville. Specifically: Andy-Scum. That was a good scum game from Andy...

Which means robo is scum, which means he probably isn't Cult Doctor, which means you should be voting for him. And since you are so defiant against voting anyone but Gurgui (because he has been the most useless) that means you are one their team.

Andy's Plan - I think it's fine. I can't promise that I will kill Yos2 tonight, but someone will, so the result is still the same. If the roleblockers deviate then we will know.

I'm getting genuine Cult-Doc vibes from Robo.

What do Cult-Doc vibes look like? Have you ever played in a game with a Cult Doctor before?

Andy - forced vote right now would go on Robo.

I got an answer from Flay a while back but forgot to post it. He basically said that the flavor was a function of both of our roles. And then alluded to how important communication is among the mob ranks is, and a failure to communicate creates confusion. So I'm guessing I was ordered to BG without my knowledge, as that would be a function of both our roles.

xvart.

[xvart]

Robo.

xvart.

[xvart]

If you guys don't lynch Xvart today, and he's not roleblocked tonight, town is likely to lose to his cult tonight.

This is so funny it's almost laughable. I never realized how difficult it was to be scum and be kept alive. What I think it is that all your people are tied up in the plans that your team will be completely outted after tonight.

xvart.

[xvart]

Right now, I think town's best chance is this.

Today, town lynches xvart, or someone from his team. In that case, xvart's team would have to try to kill our recruiter tonight; they wouldn't have any choice, clearly. Meanwhile, we'd attempt to recruit one more time, but xvart's cult is still large enough that there's at least 50/50 chance we'll miss and target someone already recruited.

So, if you take that route, then we lynch xvart today, making his cult smaller; his group would have to try to kill our recruiter tonight, which he has decent odds of suceeding at, and our cult has a high chance of failing to recruit. There's a significant chance that that puts town in a better place tommorow then they are today, no matter how large or small the town is at this point. I think it's probably your best bet here.[/quote]Yos2 - I give you props. I really can't tell if you are being serious with your whole "woe is us" unsuccessful recruiting bit or if you really are worried that you guys are about to go down. Just a question, if you knew you weren't going to win would you rather my team win or the town?

xvart.

[xvart]

EBWOP: That was a pretty terribly posted post. I forgot to copy a post from another tab and then I totally jacked Yos2's quote. Reposted for completeness and formatting:

MASSIVE SLIP FROM XVART. Look closer:

The point is, her shooting herself is irrelevant if she gets recruited tonight (unless she submits her NK immediately and recruiting has no effect on actions already submitted).

“Unless she submits her NK immediately and recruiting has no effect on actions already submitted”. This implies knowledge that xvart revealed later on: that recruiting in instantaneous. Xvart is confirmed scum on D3. (Not like I did’nt know/suspect that yet, but yeah.)

Yeah, I wanted desperately to have singer use her ability because I did not think we would get to recruiting singer before the other Cult to get the extra shot. I thought I used some more ambiguously stupid language like "if the mechanics function like this then blah blah blah..." I just didn't have faith in my recruiter to be around right when the night closed.

Right now, I think town's best chance is this.

Today, town lynches xvart, or someone from his team. In that case, xvart's team would have to try to kill our recruiter tonight; they wouldn't have any choice, clearly. Meanwhile, we'd attempt to recruit one more time, but xvart's cult is still large enough that there's at least 50/50 chance we'll miss and target someone already recruited.

So, if you take that route, then we lynch xvart today, making his cult smaller; his group would have to try to kill our recruiter tonight, which he has decent odds of suceeding at, and our cult has a high chance of failing to recruit. There's a significant chance that that puts town in a better place tommorow then they are today, no matter how large or small the town is at this point. I think it's probably your best bet here.

Yos2 - I give you props. I really can't tell if you are being serious with your whole "woe is us" unsuccessful recruiting bit or if you really are worried that you guys are about to go down. Just a question, if you knew you weren't going to win would you rather my team win or the town?

xvart.

[xvart]

Not savvy.

You fail to recognize the meaning of a yes or no question. You answer "Yes" or "No".

Yes or no?

Translated: I am trying to figure out if we need to kill you tonight and how big of a problem you are going to be tomorrow. So answer the damn question.

xvart.

[xvart]

So do we have a RB direction plan?
Prozac RBs Yos2
Chrono RBs Flameaxe

Cops investigate whomever they want?

Any deviation should give some good ideas of alignment and auto lynch. Sound fair to everyone?

xvart.

[xvart]

Hey Yos2 - I was just thinking about how many worlds would we rock if we were actually on the same team. lulz.

xvart.

[xvart]

Because Robo is giving off Cult-Doc vibes. Chrono - you never answered this question:

What do Cult-Doc vibes look like? Have you ever played in a game with a Cult Doctor before?

xvart.

[xvart]

WAIT. We need to agree to the RB plan FIRST.

xvart.

[xvart]

I guess so, but I want the RBers to say "YES I AGREE AND I UNDERSTAND THAT DEVIATION IS PUNISHABLE BY DEATH."

xvart.

[xvart]

Yes. Although is Flameaxe someone we need to block in the off chance that Robo does not flip recruiter? I also think that Prozac should block Yos2 since chrono and Yos2 are probably of the same alignment.

xvart.

[xvart]

If Robo flips recruiter then Flameaxe probably is a goon, so I wouldn't care if Chrono blocks Flameaxe or Singer. But for simplicity's sake, lets go with what you quoted.

xvart.

[xvart]

THREE ROBO VOTES IS NOT ENOUGH. MOAR ROBO VOTES NAO PLOX

As soon as prozac comes back and agrees to the plan it is on like donkey kong and you wouldn't be able to keep my vote off of Robo. Robo, any last minute WIFOM call outs you wish to make in an effort to bamboozle our thought processes tomorrow?

Also, hmmm... Quagmire's still holstered... that's good to know, lol

Oh yeah, that was the other ability I forgot.

Manipulation From Beyond The Grave.

Somewhat, sort of, maybe V/LA through Saturday.

I will be around and will have the ability to post, but my commitment level will be get exponentially lower as the week progresses because it is finals week and move out week at the University I work out so I am getting swamped as the days progress. I'm going to try and get a good post in tonight with some of the commentary that has occurred.

xvart.

[xvart]

And its a retarded plan because it leaves Mr. Confirmed Scum to do what he damn well pleases.

Yeah, except that my clan's goals and the town goals align right now: Killing the other cult. We are not going to be offing town members anytime soon, and I promise you that Yos2's Cult is most likely bigger than mine.

Also, nobody counter claimed my Bodyguard of Faraday N0 so unless I'm in cahoots with some unclaimed, unproven role I am a Bodyguard.

Andy - going on your numbers we couldn't have increased last night because... Quag was already dead.

Vote: Robocopter

xvart.

[xvart]

If Yos2 and gang kill me tonight you can be assured that everything I have said is the truth.

xvart.

[xvart]

Fuck.

Unvote.

Vezok isn't smart enough to breadcrumb a fake role like that. I didn't even remember that post about Andy not being recruited the previous night.

xvart.

[xvart]

He was L-2 when I voted. 3 on the vote count, then Andy, then me makes 5. 6 needed to lynch.

xvart.

[xvart]

Well then you RBers better target who you were told to because we are going shoot either Darox or Flameaxe; whichever we decide is the most likely recruiter. Any deviation and you ruin that with WIFOM who the RBer is going to target.

xvart.

[xvart]

Good game, all. Yes, I was the only successful recruit on the purple team. Erg0 attempted to recruit Me=Weird N0 and failed. He recruited me N1 and we figured that the failure was due to Me=Weird being the recruiter so we took a chance to try and cut the head off the snake their and did not recruit in favor of the kill. He was not the recruit so we knew that he was the N0 recruit...

Ergo0 tried to recruit Flameaxe the next night which failed. Then Erg0 wasn't around so I killed ooba. Then quag died and the rest is history. For the other Cult, if we had lynched Flameaxe yesterday I assume you still would have killed me? I was trying to let loose some stuff about other people that I didn't think were recruited at all that might tie them to me in hopes you might kill them and leave me alive as some bait to fish out the others...

I never even submitted an action last night because I was RBed again, but I was going to kill Flameaxe...

This was my first game with a Cult in it so it was a really different experience for me. I don't think I would like it in a standard game but knowing it was there when I signed up didn't affect my view of the game. I thought it was pretty fun up until the point when my teammate(s) weren't really around. Once they were dead I livened up again since I had nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I really couldn't tell if Yos2 was telling some version of the truth with his "we are small, woe is us" jibberish. I was hoping they had failed at recruiting as much as he was implying because that was the only shot I had. Why did you guys never recruit Robo?

[xvart]

I'm really interested in reading the other Cult's QT. Ours is below, what little there really was... I had to ask Flay if I would be able to use the faction kill even if Erg0 never showed up during one of the night phases.

http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/wSULHaE3Bpwh

[xvart]

If singer hadn't used her double vote would you guys have recruited her immediately in the night?

I completely forgot about the Recruiter being completely investigation immune and just kept thinking whatever flavor Andy said. Again, that might have made a slight difference in the way the game played out (we would have been screwed anyway) because Quag shouldn't have submitted that kill. But I think that was the night I was RBed by Prozac and couldn't talk in the QT so I wouldn't have been able to kill anyway.

[xvart]

I would definitely play a similar setup in the future, too.

[xvart]

Hey xvart WERE you scum day 2 then when i was lynched?

Yeah man, I was. I was recruited N1. I was slightly worried about you actually flipping recruited since I didn't say anything about your wagon; but honestly I didn't see any merit whatsoever in the case on you. I bodyguarded you N0 and I didn't lynch you, so can we still be friends?

[xvart]

I dont think I played particularly well, but I dont think I did shit. I think we had different views which may not have been communicated the best with each other. After all I did call out that yos was speaking bs. etc. I think your sucking sour grapes a bit. Yes, both me and gurgi were a pain in the ass, but when we enter a game under Flay, we want to play the setup to its full potential. With some players that wasn't possible.

Honestly, though, prozac, if you had quoted vezoks PR claim earlier I wouldn't have gone through with the robo lynch (and I realize I am to blame for that as well since I never went back and read vezok/robo) but my reaction was completely honest.

@ gandalf: I thought of that. I figured they were "no result" when they shot.

And however mentioned this in game made a shockwave roll down my spine "like no duh how stupid am I for not thinking that."

Yeah, reading your guys QT was good. It was nice to see the synergy and the working together behind the scenes.

[xvart]

Why didn't the cult recruit the power roles?

We didn't because two of our recruit attempts failed (neither were on PRs) and we spent two nights killing people we thought were the recruiter. Once we were down two recruits I suggested just going for shooting the recruits/recruiter because we didn't have our shit together to get an instant recruit once the night started so any chance we had at getting a PR was too risky because the other Cult was probably recruiting immediately. It was my opinion with how not with it we were that failing to recruit more was worse than killing recruits/recruiter.

[xvart]

Yes, and with all the other roles that interferred with recruiting it was hard for me to swallow. I guess Flay will tell us if RBing stopped recruitment or not. However, like I said, I never would have pursued your lynch if either someone had pointed out or I had found/remembered vezok saying Andy didn't change alignment. I guess also that with so many conspiracy theories it would have been nice if just one of them had been true.

[xvart]

Succession II??? Good lord you people are demanding! I've already got to run War in Heaven III/War Is Hell sometime... but yeah, I'll think about a way to make it work with most of the mechanics revealed. Hell, as RC says, it may work better, in that people spend less time on setup speculation.

Not speculating on setup would have helped me a lot, because from my perspective when I was denied access to my QT I falsely assumed that anything and everything would be refused (i.e. recruiting, too). It was pretty powerful (and maybe more so because that left only one person in my QT to talk so it was exponentially worse than having three other people who can keep on scheming). Of course, Erg0 was absent from our QT up until I got blocked and then when he came I was absent). I also couldn't really imagine a guy banging a hooker six ways from Sunday and another guy come in and say "hey, excuse me for a second, but you wanna come work for me?" but I guess that is the order of operations and it could work).

[xvart]

Wow, that's crazy with WiH II, considering it lasted less than a month.