The Return to Liten (Game Over)

[Furry]

Looking good. Since this game is clearly heavy on flavor, and we've all got these game names, I'm thinking of getting into flavor myself and actually use those names. Don't be surprised if I suddenly start talking about Chuck Norris - how could I resist?

This would get too confusing too fast.

[Furry]

I would prefer to start now since I think marathon weekend is stupid, but w/e.

Also hi people who said hi.

[Furry]

Vote LynchMePlease

[Furry]

unvote
Vote Data

[Furry]

So it seems that no one really has realized that I voted Data and not Dana. People are funny, MoI is paying way less attention then he normally does. Dana is not scummy.

Data is scummy enough for me to leave my vote on him. His vote on MoI there isnt that great.

[Furry]

Hey Data - Is Bowser scum?

Vote was for meta, but at the moment I don't see much beyond a bit of meta-relation, and meta alone isn't a good enough reason for a vote.

Unvote

If meta isnt a good reason for a vote why did you vote him to start?

[Furry]

Hey Data - Is Bowser scum?

Bowser's still scum, but MoI is committing a pretty blatant chainsaw defense right now. Obvpartners.

For whoever asked why Data is scum, this is why. Data says that Bowser is scum for lurking. When MoI attacks the Bowser wagon, Data decides that MoI must be scum defending his scum read of Bowser. However the reaction from Data is to move onto MoI, which makes little sense.

Apparently the entire scum read of MoI as per above hinges on the fact that Bowser is scum, yet Data is content to simply lynch MoI without proving the conditional part of his read. Data also completely ignores what should be a "town defending scum" possibility from his standpoint, automatically assuming MoI is scum and needing to be lynched first, therefore leaving Bowser alive for a later lynch.

MoI is probably town, Nik is probably town, dana is probably town. Data is scum and needs lynching. Jury is out on Nero and SO.

[Furry]

Everyone likes my jib

[Furry]

Oh also im going to be basically gone all this week. I have a steel design midterm monday, environmental eng one tuesday, geotechnical eng one thursday and taking my engineering liscensing exam saturday. Will not be able to make a good post (most likely) until Sunday night. Will try and read and make quicks posts between classes.

[Furry]

OH look, post RVD discussion.

Furry's case is the best thing on the table so far. *fist pumps Furry

Aaaaddddventure time!

[Furry]

You're totally right about my MoI read mostly hinging on Bowser, though.

So you are voting MoI over Bowser because.....

(There's also the fact that I look very suspiciously on the post-long-textwalls-and-interrogate-people-on-the-tiniest-of-things playstyle, as for some it's an easy way to intimidate players away from voting you without actually having to do any real scumhunting. Not saying this is necessarily what MoI is doing as it's a little early to really tell how much MoI is planning to follow up on his barrage of questions, but yeah.)

So asking lots of questions is a scumtell?

I hadn't really thought of it that way tbqh, I was just hopping onto another target. I'd be happy with my vote where it is or on Bowser. I'm certainly not going to apologize for trying to pair together scumpartners this early.

Nothing wrong with thinking "X and Y are possible partners". I usually start doing that by the third page. Again though, why MoI over Bowser if you just admitted that if Bowser is scum the majority of your MoI case goes up in smoke.

First good post from the Bowser hydra. THERE'S HOPE FOR YOU YET

So how does this effect the Bowser-scum and therefor MoI scum read?

[Furry]

Furry is either misrepping Spyrex or I just don't understand what he's trying to say.

Probably the second one since I never quoted anything from spyrex. That was all from Data.

[Furry]

You pedantic questioning of my words has been noted.

I agree, shallow and pedantic.

[Furry]

unvote
Vote SO

Detailed reasoning later on (probably tomorrow night)

I hadn't really thought of it that way tbqh, I was just hopping onto another target. I'd be happy with my vote where it is or on Bowser. I'm certainly not going to apologize for trying to pair together scumpartners this early.

Nothing wrong with thinking "X and Y are possible partners". I usually start doing that by the third page. Again though, why MoI over Bowser if you just admitted that if Bowser is

scum

town

the majority of your MoI case goes up in smoke.

Maybe you could better explain what this is supposed to mean, because it doesn't make any sense in the context you provided.

Fixed

So Data is either vig or SK, time will tell there (yes I am discounting mafia, chances of that are basically non-existant). Lucky for us scum probably have been treating him as town this whole time, hence the SO vote. AGM looks right in that read.

@Thor - Why vote the person who is probably getting replaced?

@mod

- Replace on daniel who has no posts in a week?

[Furry]

I'm also awaiting Furry's detailed reasoning since he was pushing the Data wagon and then jumped off without explanation. I'm also not sure if Magna actually caught the unvote when he incorrectly claimed to have put Data at L-1.

He claimed vig. Not sold on him being vig but that easily will straighten itself out. Why point out that MoI asked Data to claim early? Is that a scumtell? Claiming at L-2 is bad?

@Data - What is your kill method?
@Spy - Bowser is mass flaking from his games given a search from his posts.

I just caught some cold, given how busy my classes and accrediation exam is making me on top of how looking at a computer is aggravating my headache, I probably will not get to the SO elaboration untill Sunday at best.

[Furry]

I'm also awaiting Furry's detailed reasoning since he was pushing the Data wagon and then jumped off without explanation. I'm also not sure if Magna actually caught the unvote when he incorrectly claimed to have put Data at L-1.

He claimed vig. Not sold on him being vig but that easily will straighten itself out. Why point out that MoI asked Data to claim early? Is that a scumtell? Claiming at L-2 is bad?

I know there was some mixup with the times, but I'm pretty sure that you unvoted before he claimed. You certainly did say that you would provide some information about why Square Obscure is scum.

Im pretty sure he claimed first given that why I unvoted, also because I say so in my unvote post. Read harder. Reasoning later, with luck between two classes of mine tomorrow, with reality Sunday, sleep now, fever finally broke though. Tah.

[Furry]

I don't know where the "site-wide flaking" thing about Bowser came from. I just saw a post from him elsewhere.

unvote vote: Bowser

If he's actually lurking, he REALLY deserves to be lynched.

He isnt posting, but he isnt lurking in just this game. He has not made a content post in nearly a week, and should be replaced at this point since both of these heads, especially CSL, have a tendancy to flake from games after a week or two of lurk/prod-dodge. I would be thrilled if Bowser got force replaced here.

Im thinking some of my scum read on SO is that its a little bit of a skitzo hydra, which is actually a little bit of a hydra towntell. Still not a fan of him, but not overly happy with his lynch anymore. They need to talk a little bit more in their QT/AIM whatever they are doing though.

Unvote
Vote Nero Cain

I also agree with MOI about Daniel. His RVSish vote was scummy as all get out.

How?

Next we have the big wierd thing with him calling a Nik-Thor team.

Pretty solid town read on Nikanor

There's this wonderful scummy post. Perhaps Thor is some super duper player but there's no way I could get a

solid

town read in the three posts he had prior.

Sorta. Some people have very easy to read metas as a certain alignment that are possible to pick up on within a few posts. While I do not belive Nik is one of these (his meta comes into play midgame usually), its entirely possible that Thor has a meta read on him. It also is possible that one of his posts hit a huge towntell for him, I normally start getting my town/scum reads underway within the first five pages.

I also don't like the fact that he keeps switching his votes to w/e is the largest bandwagon. Though I had this argument in another game.

Apparently its a pretty common practice

to build up random bandwagons and guage reactions. I'm not a fan of this; way to easy for scum to blend in.

This point doesnt count given the bolded where you admit it doesnt count. You say it is common practice, then vote him for it because you are not a fan of it. I am not a fan of quite a few things, but I am not going to just lay down a vote on something that I know is not a scumtell. Bandwagoning is awesome though, so many new people hating it makes me realize my age on this site.

If Data flips

town

this guy is obvscum.

Why town? Are you saying that you

know

that Data will flip town.

This is quite a reach. Its a "safe" assumption that people will flip either scum or town. He is simply saying that Data-town means SO-scum. Also SO should read Datas sig, occasionally those things are worth reading.

NC has been running around calling bussing shenanigans off someone saying they have an early town read this enitre time. Thats his entire case since I already proved how his other point he contridicted for me. During this though he has managed to avoid talking about Bowsers lurk/flake and anything related to Data except for the read of SO from AGM that relates to the Data flip.

@mod

- Please replace Bowser.

[Furry]

I also agree with MOI about Daniel. His RVSish vote was scummy as all get out.

How?

Why are you asking just me and not both of us? But I can tell you why I found it scummy. He's putting a SRS vote on a bandwagon and trying to make it look like a joke/RVS vote.

That was not a serious vote. How are you thinking that was a serious vote?

Sorta. Some people have very easy to read metas as a certain alignment that are possible to pick up on within a few posts. While I do not belive Nik is one of these (his meta comes into play midgame usually), its entirely possible that Thor has a meta read on him. It also is possible that one of his posts hit a huge towntell for him, I normally start getting my town/scum reads underway within the first five pages.

Did Thor say that? No. Perhaps you should let him speak for himself. Personally I don't care to much for the whole meta thing. Most players will do things over and over again weather town or scum so for the most part I find meta null. Even Nik questioned Thor.

So you are just going to stick to "its impossible to get a strong town read on page 5" because Thor isnt explaining it?

Its been past 5 pages. Who are all your scum reads? Lemme guess I'm the only one?

Cute.

Im still leaning Data to SK over vig but that should be busted/confirmed soon enough (he still needs to claim flavor). Other players that read as slightly scummy are APC, Feysal, Twomz and Spy. Spy is missing all of his classic towntells.

This point doesnt count given the bolded where you admit it doesnt count. You say it is common practice, then vote him for it because you are not a fan of it. I am not a fan of quite a few things, but I am not going to just lay down a vote on something that I know is not a scumtell. Bandwagoning is awesome though, so many new people hating it makes me realize my age on this site.

This is lie. I also said this practice makes it easy for scum to blend in so

since I'm assuming he is scum I'm also assuming he is blending in

. Its very inaccurate to say this cannot be a scum tell as I've already noted this makes it easy for scum to blend in. You think it is impossible for scum to blend in on a wagon? Sounds like it.

You ignore the fact that you admit that town does it quite a bit to as its a playstyle thing. One of my few early stage playsyles is the random wagon since its a good way to get some reads of players. Bolded is confirmation bais though, continuing to throw out this point on him. You say "since I am assuming" which means you only are using this tell since you already think he is scum. Its very inaccurate to say this cannot be a null tell as Ive already noted how player of both aglinments do this. You think its impossible for town to act like this? Sounds like it.

This is quite a reach. Its a "safe" assumption that people will flip either scum or town. He is simply saying that Data-town means SO-scum. Also SO should read Datas sig, occasionally those things are worth reading.

Usally I see

if we get scum flip then X is also scum

so this is rather new to me. If AGM finds SO scummy, wich he basicly said so, I think it would make more sense to lynch SO first instead of lynching Data just to see if he flips town. I find that scum motivation.

I read what AGM said as SO only being for sure scum if Data is town.

+++ you had 3 posts in this thread before you went back to my post that you found "scummy" so what took you so long?

You forget that I have said you were slightly scummy earlier I guess, also how I said that I went back on my read of SO after looking at him closer.

[Furry]

Why do you feel the need to pre-emptively attack Data with this?

It's not a pre-emptive attack if I've been continuously attacking him after his claim.
Either he's a vig and will be blocked, or he's an SK and will be blocked, or he's mafia and will fakeclaim being blocked. Fo' rizzle.

All good. If he is scum it would tie up scum RB ability, if he is SK no town roles are blocked, if he is a vig a cop would get to investigate tonight.

Data's replacing out just means that his kill method was "eaten alive" or something silly like that. I seriously do not know why we are not lynching him today.

I agree that he is still more likely SK over vig (im good at finding SKs it seems) but its worth seeing what develops there first.

@NC - Out of curiosity, what makes the Thor->Nik buddying more serious then any other of the people calling eachother town events?

[Furry]

Hello all.
Reading up, will post before the deadline.

Claim kill flavor. Do it do it do it.

[Furry]

So whats with the wierd/joke spelling of names in votecount?

I was wondering how long it'd take for people to notice...

Glad no one is doing that BS pie thing for dealing with vigs at least, so happy that has burnt out.

@Thad - Do something very off the wall and noticeable, change your method the second night. Do not to ray gun, that would fit with spacey-flavor too much. Do something like "fed to /eaten by the local wildlife" if you can.

We still should lynch Nero Cain here.

[Furry]

Why are people still voting Bowser again?

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-Albert Einstein

Thats why.

unvote
vote SO

Spy, Slaxx, MoI, Nik, Thad... lets go.

[Furry]

Why are people still voting Bowser again?

I don't disagree with the SO wagon as presented by Slaxx, but previous to that I didn't see it at all

This should have zero bearing on you voting him or not.

since then I don't see it as dramatically superior to the Bowser/Tripod one.

Summarize the bowser case, make it pretty, dont metion lurking (not a tell in this case) or I will cat you

[Furry]

I think I may need to sleep and sober on this with SO and UT making wierd statements, they are both easy enough to come up with reasons town says it (wants to make sure "I was RBed" is not an option and thinks thor is town respectively). Easier to come up with scum slip reasoning though. Ick.

I still think SO is the better lynch though, partially due to emotinal (seething hate) of CSL part of Bowser causing me to question my motivation of the read in addition to seeing how bad the wagon on Bowser during the whole "lurking" part of that wagon happened.

[Furry]

Lol, this case is shit. I'm scum for believing a claim?

Meh, I can point out a few other things when I dont have to leave for class in about ten mintues

I noticed too late that my "strongman fishing" made it incredibly obvious what my role is. I think the scum caught on - now they're using shit logic to get me lynched, and the townlemmings are believing them.

I doubt that you are really a role that has bearing on strongman. If you are then you are probably scum. If you are a doctor, how the hell would you be concerned about protecting the "vig" target? If you are a RB why would you consider RBing the claimed vig? Neither of those make sense from a town perspective. Both of those make sense from a scum prospective.

[Furry]

I'm a Bulletproof Townie. If you want to prove it have ThAdmiral shoot me tonight.

So your fear was being lynched for getting outted as BP so your response was to claim BP?

@Tripod - I've been in games both where you received a RB PM and in ones where you didn't - I can think of an easy way to solve that dilemma that doesn't involve being noncommittal.

Majority of mods only send PMs for being RBed only if the person who was blocked would normally get some sort of result from the mod. Never have heard of anyone else getting told of being blocked for balance reasons.

[Furry]

Unvote
Vote Nero Cain

Call it a change of heart or whatever the hell you want to call it but I just got chills over how I see his thought process go surrounding BP claim when you look at it closely. Not really a smart train of thought by any stretch, but it looks more like town melting down then scum melting down there. The BP claim just sits very bad with me though, I have played about 60 games and THINK I remember one with a town BP. This may be my first one they are that unbelieveably rare.

The risk/benifit of keeping SO around mostly lie in getting a non-cop to confirm him

NO COP SHOULD TARGET SO EVER, trackers go crazy

just needed to get that out there since if he isnt town he is probably GF or SK which should show up as town to most cops.

We really need to unwagon UT though, seriously. Now. That slot is definantly town.

Following need death in order of urgancy
1 - Nero Cain
2 - Feysal
3 - Twomz
4 - CES

If all four of them are alive tomorrow I will probably kill someone myself out of pure rage, and I like my roommates, please dont send me to jail.

Seriously though, NO UT LYNCH. NC DIES NOW. SERIOUSLY.

[Furry]

Its been two minutes and none of those four are dead damnit... deathify them in any way possible!

[Furry]

Give me something to bite a little on Nero and we can dance.

My iso 16/17 also the fact that he refuses to comment on the UT/Bowser thing, "just believes" the SO claim and says that all he says on that matter. Then there is his scumtastic vote on MoI thats reasoning is "no one is going to follow me but im going to put my vote there anyway

just so I can avoid commenting on anything else

" italicized is elaboration, but you get the idea. He be scum.

@Thor - Look at the wagon. Also the fact that his wagon is just sitting there being all happy and whatnot. Also that its based off lurking which is crap since its turning into a double flake. UT is almost for sure town here, I bet my <Insert Celebrity of choice here> signed poster on it

[Furry]

the fact that he refuses to comment on the UT/Bowser thing

When did I say this?

When you havent talked about him all game despite him being near lynch the entire time.

@Furry - what about the Thor is town/scum thing I pointed out? Have you sobered up enough to comment on it?
I'll consider the NC shift when I get a happier read on the slot, but I don't think you're running it up for anything more or less exciting then has been seen on the other wagons of the day.

Dont think its much of a tell, sounds more like pissed off then a tell.

Ultra-wagon shift go! This lynches scum and probably catches other scum with their pants down.

[Furry]

Dont think its much of a tell, sounds more like pissed off then a tell.

Really?
He types out that I'm judging him without knowing his alignment (as he types this he has to be thinking I'm misguided town)
In the next sentence he calls me out for some sort of odd bussing action on my buddy (at this point he's *accussing* me of being scum)
Pretty big jump from sentence to sentence, amirite?

I think this is just pissed off town going down.

Do you really think I was so under Tripod's skin as to cause that sort of angry slip? I've heard from reliable sources that I'm a pr*ck, but I think even I take a bit of grinding to really annoy people.

*shrug* I just think he is town and that was him just getting pissy about the wagon on him.

If you think Tripod's anger is excusable why do you not take into account the blatant newbie juice flinging from Newbie Cain's pores? He's made some really silly cases and clearly believes them, and sloppiness in answering questions and making logical pro-town moves is an easy outgrowth of that. Other then the bussing/distancing thing I asked him about last page I'm still not sure I really feel that case. Why is sloppy play from anger understandable and sloppy play from newbiness not?

I like emotions as tells more since I tend to play by them quite a bit, if I am in a bad mood, it manifests itself in my play quite a bit, so I like looking for those emotions and tells that are wrapped in htem. NC actually avoiding all of the central themes of the game is nearly as big of a tell as the rest though.

[Furry]

Right now, I have no idea. I've been losing track of a lot of things right now because I just got hammered by shitloads of English homework yesterday.

If you are complaining about a high school work load imma track you down.

Drop Feysal to fourth on the "to die now" list, CES and Twomz gain a spot.

[Furry]

I'm assuming the laser rifle was ThAd?

It better not have been, dana was pretty likely to be town all of yesterday. NC should have been deadified, at the very least Feysal

Vote Feysal

The unexpected flip actually makes him more likely to be scum then NC. Also makes CES and Twomz a little less likely to be scum then I thought they were yesterday.

[Furry]

I'm going to lay on the floor and kick and scream until people sheep me.

Can I wait a little first? Only because I want to see how this wagon pplays out first. I can agree with you on the read though.

[Furry]

Im probably going to get yelled at a bit for this one, but im pretty sure its the right move. Plus when else am I going to get the chance to doublevote power hammer? All that plus its my only shot to actually use this one, meaning I can only doublevote today.

Vote Feysal
Vote Feysal

Night people.

*awaits a dead NC or APC tomorrow*

[Furry]

That was a waste O.o

I only had that ability today, not about to pass up the chance to use it epicly

[Furry]

Hah.

People took me seriously, always a fatal error. If someone wants to give me a double vote though, feel free.

Knew yall were lurking though, like how it went all post explosion as soon as I "hammered". Fun stuff... fun stuff.

Im against the APC vig given his 'twilight' post. NC or Thor probably need to bite the bullet/lazor phazor, actually leaning Thor over NC. Slaxx is making me super twitchy, especially how he went from "idk about SO to SO is scum" in a three hour period. Need to look into that one tonight, AGM is obviously town though from past reading.

[Furry]

Hah.

People took me seriously, always a fatal error. If someone wants to give me a double vote though, feel free.

Why would you admit that now? You could have been a good mafia NK target, instead of them going after ThAd or looking for other power roles. Next time you pull that gambit, you should wait until the following day to reveal your trick.

Would have showed up in the votecount that I wasnt a doublevoter since I was already voting him. If I haddnt been voting him, then yes I wouldnt have said anything.

Also im almost hoping Twomz is scum to uphold the most interesting tell in the world.

Thad WILL shoot tonight. He will shoot every night unless logic dictates otherwise.

[Furry]

Yeah NC needs redeathification over Thor again. Shortlist still is short, and really similar to my D1 list, and by really similar I mean the same just no CES. Also the addition of Thor depending on a few alignments.

[Furry]

hmrbph...

Well, I still like APC as leaning town given his reaction yesterday, it was reaction fishing mostly and I think he displayed an amazingly strong town tell in going "dammnit heres what I have so far". As scum, why would you ever put that up? Or at least put it up as fast as APC did here. That move moved him towards town quite a bit.

Thad I think is SK at this point. His kills have been horrid. Dana was one of my better town reads for the first day, and UT wasnt that scummy I still say. Just not getting a town read off of those kills.

Anyway, Im currently running around between CES, Thor, Twomz, NC and massive gut read of Slaxx that needs exploration. Something about his play is really rubbing me wrong.

@Slaxx - Why are you voting Thor over NC?

I just am still floored at the UT kill. He was one of the most likely to be town based off SOs action alone, Feysal just supported that. Almost to the point where I advocate a lynch of the Thad.

Then again im not as sure on Twomz, I get quite a few scum tells of him, but some of his interactions with the dead make me think town.

Need to do some thinking at this point. Just really really frustrated that there is no dead NC/Thor since those two are basically esential alignments to know.

Vote CES

He still reads scum. Asking Thad to claim kills pre-vig (note scum had doctor). Jump on SO (also first mention) post BP-claim due to flavor. More pushing for vig-SK to kill precalled targets. I dunno though, feel like I need someone to sheep right now. My classes are completely killing me for the moment so time is not that readily available.

[Furry]

Will get caught up tomorrow. This week has been horrible for time.

<3 Me

[Furry]

Well im honestly a little lost in this game, mostly due to the feeling that I have way too many leaning town reads, but way to few strong town and strong scum reads. I in part blame Thad for this one as he has killed two people who I had as top five town reads already when you take the time to see how they interacted with others.

Anyway, my list at this point

~Town~
MoI
AGM
LMP (really borderline, want him here but cant quite justify SO wasnt a bus)

~Prob Town~
APC

~Lean Scum~
Slaxx
HH
Thor

~Scum~
CES
NC
Twomz

Still on the fence about Thad. I think im letting getting really pissed that he keeps killing my town reads get in the way of my read on him since a scum doctor may actually suggest that he is a vig over SK.

One big thing I keep going through is NC vs HH/Thor. I get somewhat of a scum read on all of those three, but in the case that one flips scum, everyone on the other side is probably town flat out. Also as a side note, NC scum means AGM is even more town then he already is.

Slaxx is still really really sending me into *twitchy* attacks. Most of the time, I get a really quick town read on him, but its not here in this game. Also it is not due to his activity. Activity is only a reliable tell for a few people, and Slaxx is not one of these people. I just completely am gut activated over him.

Something about NC is giving me wet feet, mostly the way he seemed to half comment on a scumslip from Feysal, although he didnt follow through with it.

I would be willing to lynch either CES or Twomz at this point.

[Furry]

One big thing I keep going through is NC vs HH/Thor.

Do you mean NC vs. MoI/Thor or maybe NC/Thor vs. HH? I'm pretty sure HH and I disagree about our reads towards NC, so this isn't making a lot of sense to me.

No, I mean what I said. If NC is scum you are both going to be town. If NC is town, it adds to my scum read on you two a little, not enough to condemn if one flips scum, but I see no way we have a NC-Thor or NC-HH pairing.

Is APC town still based on his presentation of thoughts Day 2? (or Day 1, I forget)

His post fake hammer reaction. Instead of doing something that was non-commital, he laid down a small case. I dont see scum throwing something out there in twilight where they are possible vig bait instead of laying low. Biggest thing against him is the "lets control the vig" thing, which is a case supplement not case driving force, especially with doctor dead. I would not be down for voting him today though

[Furry]

Ya know what? Im going to make a bit of a gamble/reach and say that NC is actually town in this scenario. He really makes little to no sense as scum with anyone in this game expect a few null-ish reads. Its similar to how I got to a town read on UT, no one really makes sense as scum with him, and just about everyone is lining themselves up for a lynch of him.

CES needs rope, Twomz needs a bullet, game needs to start moving.

Im going to say at LEAST two of a CES/Twomz/[HH/Thor] group is scum here.

[Furry]

@Furry - To be slightly rude, the HH/Thor thing seems anally extracted. What's the logic there and how does NC being town equate to one of us being more likely scum?

Because both of you are slightly scummy but are no way scum in NC is scum...

For you, there was early quote

I actually agree with you [UT] on some of the energy from Square, but I'm debating as to which of you is the actual scum in the equation and I don't see a compelling argument to swing me away from you

Agreement with a case on SO (scum) but remaining on UT (town).

SO's answer to my question is terrible and helps my read of him not at all. That said; I'm actually nervous about how there's been no real movement off his wagon even though I've been campaigning around offering a viable counterwagon for some time now. I'm pretty sure we're lynching town and would much rather lynch Tripod.

Another acceptabce of known scum case but staying on UT

@Spy - Feysal is clearly sandbagging to some degree, but I'll admit I've sorta forgotten the flow of the game, was that vote for any particular case? I don't recall you pushing on Feysal prior to thins. Has your opinion of Nero Cain shifted?

Early push for NC over Feysal (given as Spy had been on NC the previous day)

Jesus he [NC] might be town.

That's what I've believed since yesterday - and even I can't be wrong all the time Even if scum only had night talk you don't think they would have been all over him for his play yesterday? And yet it remains identical and with the same reads.

Bull. You had been voting NC on and off for most of late D1, and the comment before seemed to be a passive attack at NC.

Still we need to lynch CES, AGM apparently sees it now.

For HH... it comes later.

[Furry]

Im totally willing to throw down a Twomz vote, but given past experiences, the formation and comments on the two wagons suggests that the right lynch here is CES. You can look at how many times he tries to give SO a chance to redeme himself in such quotes as

Square, my use of role in the preceding post was meant in the sense of power. So a vig and an SK would be the same role with different alignment.

or

I demand flavour.

or even

P.S. Anyone else notice Squara Obscura hasn't posted BP flavour yet despite Wraith posting elsewhere?

after that he gave up on him and jumped on the wagon.

Will completely be willing to lynch Twomz though, I just think CES needs more close looking at soon.

@Thor - You vote NC from your iso 42 to 46, after bulidup stemming as early from your iso 23 where it appears that you have NC as a scummy read given how you are starting to push on him a little bit at that point. You also have to be kidding me if you say that at your iso 51 you are not reading NC as scum. While you do not VOTE him most of the game, I would be floored that if you are town you really had anything worse than a null read on him starting around your iso 20 continuing until present day. Your posts directed him say that. Your questions to others suggest it. You other reads suggest it.

Again, I am not calling you and HH buddies. I am saying neither of you can be scum with NC, and you both read slight scum. Very much worth mentioning.

[Furry]

I would be floored that if you are town you really had anything worse than a null read on him starting around your iso 20 continuing until present day. Your posts directed him say that. Your questions to others suggest it. You other reads suggest it.

Yet you're ignoring that by 55 onward I have consistently called him town and ceased my scumhunting and any pressure of him.

How did a scum claim from Feysal change this though? As early as your iso 50 you still seem to suggest him as being scum.

[Furry]

So... we really should lynch CES over Twomz here. The way this wagon has occured, the claim, the lack of people trying to do anything else. He is scum. Compare the Feysal wagon to this, the only difference is that this one is much slower which is a tell of wagon on town. This whole thing, even the claim leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and its telling me that not only most scum are on this wagon, but its a wagon on town. Would bet bit that Twomz is going to flip town here, and that we need to move over to CES lynch.

Furry, what about CES's votes makes him scum to you?

Not much. What makes him scum is how he tries to delay jumping on the SO wagon multiple times while constantly saying that SO reads scum. You should vote CES with me, start a counter wagon. AGM is also welcome to join. NC should too, and Slaxx should join to redeem himself from my gut.

[Furry]

You're asking me to sheep a wagon...for town cred? Does not compute.

Lynching scum is great towncred

[Furry]

That's odd, because I think I have been on both scum wagons so far and your gut is still a-ringin.

Not ultra thrilled with either of your votes on them. Something just feels wrong with them. This one should remedy it.

[Furry]

This game never ceases to amaze me. Slaxx you missed the early bus again. Twomz needs to saddle up and mosey on over. Nice to see that NC is actually town. Armadillo, armadillo! The cheese from Zimbabwe has lugubriously flattened my popcorn!

[Furry]

*twitch*

This game...

I wish I had a town read that wasnt sheeping me at this point. I need to do something to get a handle on it since I feel that im somehow stuck in a leading role when I dont have the normal strength of reads to back it up. Maybe just scrapping everything and doing a reread, I dunno.

@CES - So you thought that SO was scum due to the flavor part of his claim over the role part?

MoI raises a decent point on APCs late case possibly coming from scum, and with quite a few of his posts today im starting to second guess that read of him. Maybe im just applying my playstyle to others a little too haphazardly.

I need frickin something in this game to make some conclusive sense (and also town reads to stop getting killed by scum AND thad)

[Furry]

Thor might be the play today. Just sayin.

Counterpoint: It actually might be HH

[Furry]

Thor might be the play today. Just sayin.

Counterpoint: It actually might be HH

Can you give me a concise argument for this?

Few coaching comments to Feysal during the first day. Late on the first big push of the SO wagon. Top pick if NC is town which I am currently thinking he is (which is why im still vaugely pissed at Thad for not killing him N1 since so many reads hinge on him). Not sure though, im always reckless right after I wake up.

[Furry]

AGM should not be on the kill list.

Im going to continue my habit of changing my reads every 24 hours and

unvote
Vote HH

I think NC is town at this point, which shuffles around a few reads, leaving this as the right move. Also if HH is scum, APC needs insta-death. Vice versa also applies. Thanks to another episode of "change of heart-o-rama", im thinking APC is more likely scum then town again. We have things like

I avoided SO wagon? Is this intentional misrep or what? Nika beat me to hammer.

Funny how you are trying to tie me to feysal though.

Before Feysal flips scum, which is wierd on two terms. First "avoiding the wagon" is a weak point since the first mention of SO from APC is right before the lynch occurs, also in that post is encoragement for Dana (who I still say was obviously town with is distinct meta) to get vigged. The bigger point here is that he gets defensive about getting tied to scum BEFORE Feysal claimed scum/flipped, like you never considered him flipping town at all (ironically this was most of your case on MoI, that he was "sure" SO was scum) which by your own logic means you are scum! Yay hypocracy!

We also need to set up a way to vote for vig target. How does using the

color purple

for vig votes sound?

Horrible idea for reasons that I hope I do not need to get into, massive scum benifit, etc etc.

There also is a complete lack of scumhunting. Except for his wierd case, that for some reason he never finished, on MoI. Today we have had

twomz is a fine wagon. There is most definately scum amongst twomz, thor and MOI. I need to re-read NC. Will look at this when I am not dead/tired.

Flat out agreement for the bigger wagon, a hotter topic, a nod to his past suspicion, and another vote getter with no distinguishing between them

That said, willing to concede today, but we are DEFINATELY directing tomorrow if thad gives us another SK shot tonight.

Makes sure that Thad is lynchable if he doesnt make a good kill, which subtely suggest controlling the kill.

If my gut is not pulling any shenanigans, then I am sure that thor is 90% scum.

So his best case is "gut". Throughout the entire day all APC has come up with is "everyone but CES who is getting heat is scummy" and "thor especially on gut".

This game....

unvote
Vote APC

[Furry]

Oh, and that should answer AGM's question. I still am hellbent on one of Thor+NC for the other scum. I am semi thinking ThAd is SK, and I think SK+4 scum in a 20 player game would be decent, but I have no clue how to balance.

Mafia doctor suggests that Thad is a vig actually. Im upset I missed this earlier.

Doctor more of a defense to a vig, since it protects the ones who will be killed, not the ones who look town. On that mod-WIFOM alone I am not going to vote Thad unless there is definative proof that there is a SK, or I am in a F3 kingmaker solution.

Also yes, APC quote was before the claim.

[Furry]

I don't like how Furry keeps making new wagons. They're not bad cases, but I'm not seeing anything from APC that's SOOO scumtastic that I need to vote for him RIGHT NAO. Twomz is still good.

This game is tripping me out really bad. I have way to few very solid town reads which I normally base a whole lot of my reads on, so everything is constantly changing as these really wierd wagons show up then back off and its just making really little sense for me. There are way to many people that I can see as scum right now so everything is so much more fluid right now then it normally ends up being. Even the "weaker" town players who have been getting vigged by Thad are causing me issues because just knowing someone is town to the extent that thier reads existed helps me cement others reads by association.

When im this skizo I shouldnt be commanding wagons but I dont trust anyone enough to really sheep a read at this point, or I would be going against past reads so im just running in circles as everything continues to shift as more happens... I need to track down my sanity.

[Furry]

Mafia doctor suggests that Thad is a vig actually. Im upset I missed this earlier.

Can you elaborate on this because I’m not seeing it. Mafia Doctor tells me that a non-Mafia faction has a Nightkill ability. Whether that Mafia Doc ability would logically be used to protect their scummiest members (in the case of a Vig) or their Towniest members (in the case of a SK) seems at best Mod WIFOM.

Mafia doctor and a SK is borderline bastard modding since it goes against what the standard ideal play of a mafia doctor is. It is mod WIFOM, but its probably true.

[Furry]

Furry, could you respond to my earlier post?

First time I said it as a statement in a little case and it never was responded to. I wanted to make sure that was right so I brought it up again, apparently yes it was.

Deadline is Wednesday, lets go people.

Twomz is probably town here. APC needs the lynch.

[Furry]

I agree that Apathy has been useless, but I don't see the scum reads others are finding. I would be willing to throw down a vote on Apathy to cull a useless player if the deadline approaches to narrow the field (I will not vote for myself, but I will vote for the next largest wagon), I'd rather not waste the lynch but I don't have a better alternative.

I can't think of a relevant reason to postpone the end of the day... does anyone have any questions for me or apathy?

@ MoI: It's not that I think that's the only reason, I've talked about the others as well, it's that you've been most vocal about it. We could sit here all day and yell back and forth "random is ok!" "no it's not!" and it still won't have anything to do with the game.

Twomz wagon is a go.

Nah. Twomz is what he claims to be. Pretty sure of that.

APC needs to die, check out his nice and conveinent lurking. I think he even needs prodding at this point.

[Furry]

So what made you post the accusations in #703 (most notably the 2nd and 3rd quote)?

In those quotes you appear to stall a vote multiple times based on flavor. I went around the bush a few times before flat out getting confirmation that it was all based on flavor. Speaking of flavor, what is you thoughts on Twomz claim?

[Furry]

Hail the all powerful Atheismo?

[Furry]

Also, someone explain to me why voting on the vig target is bad, and how it is different than voting on the lynch target. You're killing both, and mafia is influencing both. Never got that.

I agree. Especially when the group has been deciding as well as it has been so far.

Using the "its a vig not SK" theory - If the vig shoots by themselves, it is a shot 100% guided by town. If people discuss and vote on it, there is a 100% chance that scum has some bearing over where it goes, even if its not much scum influenced the shot directly.

[Furry]

Dear camn

Scum are APC and HH. Hope this helps your reread go faster.

Love Furry

[Furry]

You know what? I dont think Thad has never claimed flavor. He should do that ASAP.

[Furry]

Camn, could you provide us with any comments on nero's play?

APC is continuing to do my job of laying out why he needs death for me.

[Furry]

Few coaching comments to Feysal during the first day. ...

Furry, Can you show me these? If HH was coaching..... I would call that a TOWN tell, given scum daytalk.

His iso 11/15 are a few little pushes for him to stop going one way and start another. Never realized scum had daytalk though, going to need to go through the game to see if that changes anything now. Stupid extra work.

[Furry]

@camn - what do you see as the incriminating aspect of the VC analysis that screams that HH is scum?

Lots

Vote HH

[Furry]

I can't tell if you're being a twit or I'm being a dense idiot again. I'd be pretty content to accept the latter if you could bother actually expanding on that answer.

Bit of both.

If my reads are right all remaining scum are in HH/CES/Thor

P.S. We shouldn't stop vigging or we'll never get to lynching the good players like Furry and MoI.

Stop being paranoid. That was an unusally good scum game from me.

Speaking of paranoid, I am a little on edge right now since my big picks really dont work together too well. If Thad stops shooting though it would return that paranoia to null a bit better even though the chance of him being a SK is already null... hmmrp.

At this point though I know CES is capable of some uber-bussing thanks to a recent game. Which may quell a little bit of the paranoia of him not working too well with some of my other high picks. The recent game was very different then my past CES-scum meta, and matches up closer to his play in this game then the old game.

I guess I could see a CES-HH pairing here. I wish Slaxx was around so I can figure out one key element before I argue massclaim or not.

Either way, if we just run with Camn, AGM, MoI and Thad-town, game is basically won since it leave just Slaxx-wildcard.

[Furry]

unvote
Vote Thor

Im just going to stop WIFOMing myself out of him being scum at this point.

One thing that is bugging me is that I dont like the Thor/HH/CES pairing to much. Need to look into that.

[Furry]

I think it might be worth a massclaim here. We are really not able to figure out what peoples roles are on flips, so any attempt to leave behind a crumb is completely lost at this point. Also given the same thing, its going to be better to get scum to claim since they are much easier countered or trapped since they have no clue what has flipped themselves.

[Furry]

@Furry re 1020

– Any reason why you unvoted to move to Thor when CES’s claim reduces the chances that either he or Hacker are scum by 0%? I’ll say it till I’m blue in the face – despite Thor’s lethargic play his position at the end of Day 1 means he’s VERY unlikely to be scum. I’d consider voting one of my otherwise solid Town reads over him if their vote positioning looked anything but solid.

Depending on a few things that we cant confirm until post game, it actually could. Worth a try in this though:

@HH and CES - Who pushed for the HH addition to the group?

If I were scum, I would have killed Spyrex night 1. He breadcrumbed cop pretty well on day 1. That's why I followed him on D2.

Self-meta is tech. But it is funny that you see Cop in Spyrex’s quote. I see that as a classic Spyrex “If I was a Vig” (you know, the people who DEFINITELY carry a gun?) rhetoric statements.

Actually, seeing cop there really shocks me. Remember what I just said about not knowing what roles are? The only way I think that he can know what Spys role was is if he was a rolecop type role or scum track/watch role.

Im completely fine with lynching HH, but just parts of Thors play clash with the "placement" that you are talking about. More subtle blocks for partners.

unvote
Vote HH

Tomorrow a massclaim needs to happen if not today. We already have over a third of the game claimed at this point.

[Furry]

I think it might be worth a massclaim here. We are really not able to figure out what peoples roles are on flips, so any attempt to leave behind a crumb is completely lost at this point. Also given the same thing, its going to be better to get scum to claim since they are much easier countered or trapped since they have no clue what has flipped themselves.

I agree with a mass claim. I feel it could help at this point.

I think at least HH should claim, and we can go from there. There just looks like a whole lot of information will be lost when people die since we cant salvage anything from flips to look back to.

I support a complete massclaim at this point though.

[Furry]

Im the Former Govenor of Liten, Colonist which means vanilla. Flavor is based to a large extent on aftermath of the first game where I was scum that played to a draw. Flavor is also why I didnt want to lynch Twomz, I was pretty sure I was a PR when looking at my role up until the line that said vanilla, his reaction made sense to me as VT.

Chess-Slaxx go.

[Furry]

Im thinking at least one of chess/camn/AGM/HH basically HAVE to be scum here, if not two. Just had that feeling that SOB was the standard VT without even having that role and Twomz was almost able to be called town on flavor which was what I was dealing with. Flashbacks to old Nasubi game there. One of those things where I wonder what happened if I spoke up, but claiming VT didnt feel like the right move there. Its why I leaned into CES about flavor about Twomz though.

Also would have sworn slaxx/chess was going to claim JOAT given all his ryming crap he was pulling near the end of the day. That one actually is really making me paranoid that chess missed his predicessors crumbs.

My money is on HH/chess right now with the hope that it will end the game. Site meta still leans neighbors as both town far more often then not (OMGWTFBBQWIFOM I kno) so maybe CES as town afterall.

[Furry]

@SaintK

– If Furry is not V/LA (and I think I know one of his alts who has been active on site) please prod him.

First off, its alt, singular, all the others I have used were just one game things. Second this is the alt, not the main. Yes I have an alt that has played about 15 games and is over a year old.

Im just really busy with family stuff now that I would prefer not to be a part of, but am obligated to still be at.

I think that pairing here is as simple as HH and chess/slaxx and would vote either without much of a issue. Will try and get a little bit of stuff up in the next 15 minutes or so I should be on for. Time should free up a little bit Tuesday, then be free again starting in a week. Not on V/LA, but dont be expecting daily posts.

[Furry]

Early on, HH really does nothing in the form of scumhunting. He opens with a LMP vote but really never expands on that when no one else shows any interest on the wagon. Most of his time is spent sniping at people on the Data-Thad wagon instead of trying to get someone lynched, this would probably be the ideal spot to take as scum from my standpoint since you should be able to control where the wagon moves when it falls apart after a claim/next day after lynch.

Eventually he jumps on Bowser for making a "Wordy Case" and wagoning. Seriously he uses wordy case

Bowser put together a very wordy case before voting for Data .... Bowser's case on Data seems to be overdone

Funny part is this seems to be a much more wagony vote then Bowsers was.

He continues to vote for Bowser, again with no further pushing, until I make a little bust of SOs claim. At that point he finally votes SO after a total mentioning of being

I'm still interested in the Square reasoning, but it's not as important now that I know why you unvoted.

He is more interested in the wierd time travel thing that occured then SO early on, as I said this changes after the claim gets busted up a bit.

Near the end of the first day HH follows along for the pushing of Feysal to be productive with

I also find his most recent post quite valid. Feysal needs to take a stand here. We've had two good wagons since Data and he's not bothered to commit one way or another to either one of them. Has he even voted?

All for now. Tomorrow is probably my worst possible day for content during the holidays, so this is to be continued tuesday

[Furry]

Camn points are good points

unvote
vote chess

Yes I see when deadline is. I will change my vote late tonight as needed, but this is better.

[Furry]

I am on for 3-4 hours....

We have time

[Furry]

Think thats a lynch already, but to make sure no shenannigans occur

unvote
vote HH

[Furry]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to yet another exciting game of "Why is MagnaofIllusion still alive?!" We're excited to have you all as contestants today! Without further ado, here's how the game works:

This is just about a record for me too. Last time I lived this long I was some stupid third party role that was painful to play.

Vote chess

[Furry]

One of my favorite parts of the Slaxx/Chess slot is the pushing for vig lynch and acceptance for the vig killing the slot, until the RB died, followed promptly by the vig.

That and how chess went from not wanting a lynch of HH at all until the slot was doomed, and then deciding what his suspects were pushing was the best lynch

[Furry]

Im like 90% sure CES did some vig directing at some point, he is the only one I can remember doing that however

[Furry]

Policy lynches are awesome. Policy lynches of scummy players are even more awesome.

There is nothing wrong with a policy lynch, the site would be better if people were willing to do so.

[Furry]

I'm ok with being lynched if you promise to lynch camn tomorrow.

So your theory is that HH has been bussing NC/camn for the entire game only to have camn turn around and powerbus the RBer when there is still a vig in play?

Yeah I can come closer to promising you that I will NOT lynch camn tomorrow then I will.

[Furry]

It still is going to eat up a kill that can be used to kill a more threatening player, and opens up the possibilites of vig shooting later. Also "said" and "didnt" are completely different things.

Seems like a wierd bus. Also how camn changed mindsets when it was pointed out that HH was the RB is probably a towntell. Also that Thad thought camn was town.

[Furry]

Now that we have destroyed that case... who else is scum?

[Furry]

I am becoming very quickly paranoid of AGM scum.

Still like the chess vote at the time though.

[Furry]

unvote

Love it when someone else justifies my paranoia. Makes me want to share tinfoil coupons.

What is being pointed out is the same thing that I am thinking regarding him. He really doesnt look good when you remove day one from the equation. Even day one he jumped wagon early, never really pushed it hard (although did shut down other wagons) and since then has not been a part of any scum lynch, or a push on anyone except twomz really who I STILL say should have read slight town to any "standard" VT player.

I do not know if I am going to join AGM wagon or not, but I am not ready for a chess lynch at this point since I am really crappy at reading defeated mindset. Most annoying part of all this is that I agree with the reads chess is throwing out almost completely.

[Furry]

i.e. anyone who is not Furry CES or me.
because you two are town

This is the read you agree with, furry? THIS?
Goddamn buddying works every time .

Well this CES is town part I agree with.

Also who doesnt like a nice ego rub? My ego is comprable to Kanye West's. Without daily attention it will starve.

Also I still say you, CES and maybe even MoI/Thor are town here. CES is going to be town unless APC essentially said "screw you im going over your head to neighborize HH". No way scum pushes for scum to join group

[Furry]

OH YEAH

AGM claimed commuter, dur. Three counters to the vig on one scumteam? Unlikely. Even more unlikely is a doctor and self-protector on same scumteam.

vote chesskid

[Furry]

AGM claimed commuter, dur. Three counters to the vig on one scumteam? Unlikely. Even more unlikely is a doctor and self-protector on same scumteam.

Though didn't MoI claim last or next to last? That's a pretty safe point to fakeclaim. How do you feel about MoI's role considering there were three other doctors in the game - isn't that a bit heavy on the protection side?

Would be a wierd role to fakelcaim that late. Also one of the protective roles was scum, and RBer is a half-protector. Commute is weak-protect at best. Only way I see that claim as scum is if it was a complete fakeclaim, and when everyone is claiming VT, scum like to follow suit, especially given how many dead apparent roles we have.

[Furry]

That sounds.... very accurate. I would put chess at higher scum chance then 25% though

[Furry]

26?

Im Selenium sure (bonus points if you get this joke)

Anyways, im going to do one of my newbie game lectures here because its needed. Dont be a dick. Regardless of your alignments its going to damage you because if the entire game hates you and/or your play, they will want to lynch you more, which means that you will more likely be lynched, and therefore damage your faction. Dont be a dick.

Someone hammer.

[Furry]

I would hammer AGM, I already made it known that I think he is probably scum. Think I was the first one to say that, or at least bring it up today.

Noooooo please don't lynch him yet I'm still catching up on flavor. >_>

MoI basically has the case right. AGM just rode an early vote on SO to the end, Feysal lynch is basically a complete wash for everyone, and then we saw AGM and his interactions with HH wagon.

[Furry]

My biggest crossroads here is that there arent many people that look like they can be partners at this point in the game, but I would expect more than one scum left alive so am grappling with that.

I would be willing to lynch from a chess/Thor/AGM pool though, would expect all remaining scum in that one.

[Furry]

Why 2 scum left, Furry? Even if we assume SpyreX was a cop, I don't see enough town power to justify a 5 - 13 split.

I just read this game as five scum. I dont think the HH lynch would have gone down that easily or the vig been kept alive if there were only two scum alive at that point.

[Furry]

@Furry - I'm feeling like you're slipping away from the game. Is there any particular reason you're so stoked to sheep camn at this stage?

I confused, a little behind and then lost interest in the game for the most part about 20 pages ago. Part of it may be needing to log on and off and on again to make one post, but in the interest of flavor im going to stay around on this account.

I think the order chess/thor/AGM is better then what we are doing, but will hammer tonight since deadline is tomorrow. Will remain on chess to leave that as the possibility though until about ten hours from now.

[Furry]

Still like chess lynch over thor lynch

[Furry]

Im still stuck on scumteam numbers things. I just CANT see chess scum unless there are multiple scum alive given his attitude, but no one works as his partner at this point. Not many people even work with eachother for the most part. Feel like im just missing something.

While I really dont like the Thor lynch, its looking like the only way a lynch can really happen.

unvote
Vote Thor

[Furry]

vote chess

[Furry]

Im here and trying to piece stuff together. I think this is the first time ive ever been in a three player lylo as town without scum being essentially confirmed.

Its sort of a matter of "did AGM bus SO" against "did MoI bus HH". Both were not too great on the wagon of the other. MoI showed up late on the SO wagon, then railed on the HH lynch early on. AGM got on the SO wagon quickly, although never pushed it as much as he just shot down rival wagons, and then avoided the HH wagon.

Class now, more later.

[Furry]

Im just going to start infodumps

Mafia doctor suggests that Thad is a vig actually. Im upset I missed this earlier.

Can you elaborate on this because I’m not seeing it. Mafia Doctor tells me that a non-Mafia faction has a Nightkill ability. Whether that Mafia Doc ability would logically be used to protect their scummiest members (in the case of a Vig) or their Towniest members (in the case of a SK) seems at best Mod WIFOM.

I don’t want this tidbit to be lost in the shuffle. Let’s look at who has flipped as Town –

Nik and Dana – Medic (possible Doc variant)
Spyrex – Scout (information role of some sort I would guess based on Day 2 Feysal wagon)
Untrod – SOB Operative (????)

One other thing that is confusing me is that AGM was quoted by HH about not knowing about daytalk. For some reason I just dont see scum quoting that for my partner. As scum I would either just ignore it or tack it on in a post randomly, just would feel awkward to quote it like that.

camn death doesnt fit with anyone. was the probable death for all alive players

im honestly on the fence right now in all of this, or at least a lot closer to a flip of the coin as I was before I started reading. Some things from MoI just make me feel uncomfortable, but I have to let go of some solid stuff to go that route. I almost was hoping scum would have voted me so I wouldnt have to think on this one.

The one time vote of HH on MoI also has me in fits...

not voting yet.

[Furry]

Here’s the first thing that really makes me, in re-read, question Furry.

1. Potential slip when indicating that scum have a RB ability (which until Hacker flipped wasn’t seriously considered with a scum Doc).
2. Potential direction of a Cop to ThAd. Some scum motivation to make sure a potential SK is investigated early (and thus likely outing the Cop) and thus eliminate a Mafia rival. Especially given that later discussion that revolved around the then unknown Scum Doc indicating ThAd was Vig.

First, have you ever seen many large games with no scum RB? Its such a staple that its a safe assumption to make they have one in any game you play on this site. Also point 2 is not what I said, I said that if a RB is on the vig/SK, then the cop is free to investigate unblocked every night. I did not say "hey cop look at Thad" like you are trying to make it out to be right here. Also the whole "cops get innocent of SKs" arguement makes this point fall apart a second time.

The risk/benifit of keeping SO around mostly lie in getting a non-cop to confirm him

NO COP SHOULD TARGET SO EVER, trackers go crazy

Furry

– can you explain your reasoning here? I don’t see the logic in actively turning potential cops loose on a possible SK (who may not even scan as not-Town) but to keep them away from a highly suspected Mafia member. I have some ideas but I'd really like to know what you were thinking.

So... me saying that no cop should target SO means that I wanted cops to target SO? Lets say you are scum who is going to fakeclaim. First rule of fakeclaiming is to claim something that you can actively back up. What role can actively backup a BP claim usually? Answer is the same role that is investigative immune, godfather role! At this point I had SO down to either scum GF or town BP. In either case, he would show as town to a cop, so I wanted him tracked or something to that method, since if he showed up doing something (which he would have) he is confirmed scum.

The net effect of 54 was to say HH was scum, say that if HH was scum APC needed to die, and then attack APC for the rest of the post before voting him. That’s a variation of the exact same play he attacked Data’s logic on regarding myself and Bowser. Inconsistencies / Cognitive Dissonance I find a reliable Scum tell.

Actually I said "HH and APC are scum together" and showed interest in a lynch of either for most of the game. It was not a "if player X is scum, then Y is scum too" situation. They were both scum reads independent of eachother, but their play backed up them being scum together was well, a scum flip from one helped back the case of other being scum.

The last second switch to Chess as scum (sheeping Camn) at the end of the day that Hacker was lynched also is suspect.

If you really want to bring WIFOM into it, I would have continued my power bus of HH as scum, taken the town cred and probably killed camn, having Thad take down chess/thor for me to bring game back to even numbers, lynched one of the remaining, then gotted rid of Thad, taken the no lynch and tailored the endgame to my liking looking more town then I would if I tried to abandon ship on the HH wagon. I like bussing when it looks like a good move, thats clear by looking at 90% of my scum games. Basically what you did if you are scum.

[Furry]

*wave*

[Furry]

Given that this is this accounts last game (unless SK makes part 3 and asks me to be in it) I would have loved to just end it in a blaze of glory being something like 10 wins and 1 draw as scum as furry. instead now I have to think.... bastards

[Furry]

ATTN: FURRY

- Do you actually want me to argue with Magna and/or say stuff or are you just going to make up your mind on your own? Because I can argue, but it seems like a waste to do for nothing.

Nothing extreme. Im going to spends the next 48 hours or so just looking stuff over, but if you two want to bring up some CONCSISE clear points and not make a dozen new pages I would read it.

[Furry]

Fear doesnt lead to panic. Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

Sorry couldnt resist

[Furry]

Im about 75% of the way to a vote. Might take me being drunk to get the courage to make it though. Expect one by tomorrow night.

[Furry]

Ok.

Going to get this out there a head of time. This was an amazingly hard decision to make, and this was the one endgame that I did not want to see under any circumstance. Someone I have had a slight scum read on, and someone who I have secretly been very paranoid of being scum for the entire game. This also is why chess needed to die yesterday, he couldnt be allowed to be alive in an endgame because I would have wanted to lynch him just because I didnt want to lose to him if he was scum and won by being a massive VI.

I went back and forth on this one for a long time. I can make a legitimate arguement for either of you to be scum, and at this stage I doubt that anything you say would dissuade me from following through with my vote. For that reason I decided to take a difference stance in approaching how I was going to decide who to vote, in hopes that it gave me more of a soild platform to put a vote on. I put myself in your guys shoes, trying to see what I would have done in this game if I was scum.

For the day one lynch, I think I would have been a bit hesitant to lynch the scum doctor, since it ment that there would be one, if not two killing roles in the game. Now AGM got himself on the wagon early and didnt let go. At the same time though, he never really championed the wagon making himself look really good for a SO-scum flip except for the fact that he was first on the wagon. Instead he attacked rival wagons, which really doesnt gain him much credit due to lack of actually fueling the SO wagon. MoI came in around the fall of the Data wagon, and then left for the NC wagon and tried to push that one noisily for some time. Later he returned to the SO wagon at the same time that he was in the process of claiming really poorly. Im still interested in reading the scum QT at this point to see what exactly happened.

Night one is interesting, the Nik kill is something I see from MoI 100%. However day two is a wash.

Great thing to note that I found is that if scum, MoI actually dug himself a hole D3 such that he had to claim power, VT was out of the question. Not sure what this really means since at this point in the game I didnt know that SOB Op was a VT role since I apparently got some wierd one, but its something of note that may come into play.

Well, im getting all jittery again, as I said, probably a good 70 games and this is actually the first time ive been in a non easy choice 3 player endgame. Also may as well just throw down my vote and the reasoning for it now. Reasoning first though, and its going to contraverisal I know.

Its the Hacker wagon.

The people alive at that point: AlmasterGM, Furry, camn, Thor665, MagnaofIllusion, chesskid3, Cogito Ergo Sum, Thadmril, HackerHuck

Now, that is nine alive, two scum. For scum to win this game, they would need to cause three straight mislynches if Thad didnt shoot (which we already said he wouldnt). At this point though... who CAN be lynched over HH? Chess obviously, but then what? Maybe by some miracle we lynch both Thor and someone else random? Basically, I dont think scum could have won with HH still alive. So this begs a new question, what was the best plan of attack for scum in this sitation. I actually think the answer is to bus. You lay into your partner and take him out, followed by taking down Thad/camn the next night. The other the following, and then one other person to make the ideal three player endgame. I really started thinking this when I said "like I would have done" to MoI earlier. It struck me, he has played almost exactly like I would have played if I was scum in this game. The SO lynch, the pushing of the possible lynch players in middle game, taking down HH to be able to make it to F3. The only difference is order of kills (would have taken camn over CES to start to be able to take dominant spot). With all of that in mind, its time to bit the bullet and

Vote MoI

Good game to whoever won. If im wrong please dont hurt me.