The Return to Liten (Game Over)

[HackerHuck]

Standard replacement

unvote

.

I hope to get through this tonight, because I'll be away most of Saturday.

[HackerHuck]

OK, I've skimmed through the first few pages just so I could get up to speed, but I'll go back over them in more detail tomorrow. Dana wagon was interesting and it sure seemed to fade fast. I'll have to admit that LynchMePls gave me a bad vibe with his attack on MoI's 'There's scum on that wagon' comment. What is really obvious, is that Magna's statement implies that he thinks it's more likely that there is scum on that lynch than random chance would indicate. I don't see why town would want to dissuade that type of an investigation.

VOTE: LynchMePls


I also forgot to ask this before replacing in, but I'd like to know who the hydras are and their heads. Please use full screen-names. While CSL sounds familiar, I can't recall what it stands for.

[HackerHuck]

@HackerHuck - as exciting as you trying to restart the LMP wagon is, I find it odd you didn't comment on Furry's Datascum case. What's up with that?

I did say that I skimmed, so all I recall is that there was some confusion regarding a vote on Data versus Dana. I'll take a look at it later today.

[HackerHuck]

@HackerHuck - as exciting as you trying to restart the LMP wagon is, I find it odd you didn't comment on Furry's Datascum case. What's up with that?

It's not a very good case. I don't think Furry is scummy for it, but his reasoning isn't very convincing. If it weren't so early in the game, I'd be concerned with why it got so much traction.

[HackerHuck]

Not very good, but I think its the best thing out there so far. That probably why it got traction.

It got traction because you think it's the best thing out there so far?

Thor - superior is a strange word to use at this stage in the game. I like mine better, but both of them are marginal.

Furry is either misrepping Spyrex or I just don't understand what he's trying to say.

[HackerHuck]

Yeah, it got traction because relative to other cases it was one of the stronger ones.

You pedantic questioning of my words has been noted.

I was also pointing out the fact that you appear to be speaking for everyone else. Early game wagons tend to be built on reasons not entirely related to 'cases', hence my original comment.

Furry is either misrepping Spyrex or I just don't understand what he's trying to say.

Probably the second one since I never quoted anything from spyrex. That was all from Data.

Sorry, replace the word Spyrex with Data and maybe that will help.

I hadn't really thought of it that way tbqh, I was just hopping onto another target. I'd be happy with my vote where it is or on Bowser. I'm certainly not going to apologize for trying to pair together scumpartners this early.

Nothing wrong with thinking "X and Y are possible partners". I usually start doing that by the third page. Again though, why MoI over Bowser if you just admitted that if Bowser is scum the majority of your MoI case goes up in smoke.

Maybe you could better explain what this is supposed to mean, because it doesn't make any sense in the context you provided.

[HackerHuck]

This is me officially and posthumously disowning my Nero Cain vote.
Bad vote. Bad.

I'd still like a Data lynch. The whole, "I WAS ACTING SCUMMY ON PURPOSE FOR REALZ," is bullshit, considering he's an alt of someone who has been playing for "ages." Experienced players know not to play PRs scummily.

This isn't true either and like the others have said, a vig claim tends to sort itself out.

The data wagon was a weak day-1 wagon that built a lot of steam without a lot of content. There's probably scum there (waiting for the 'no duh' comment) and I don't see how Alamaster can honestly think that Square had inside info from it.

[HackerHuck]

I don't know that I got my hydra question fully answered. Mod - could you update the first post with hydras and heads?

I prefer at the moment to not put hydra member names on the first post for aesthetic reasons, but all hydra member names should be in the first post of the signup thread. I'll see if I can think of a more elegant-looking solution to have the hydra members listed somewhere in the first post at a later time.

[HackerHuck]

Hacker, you keep just disowning every single possible wagon that comes up as "not being that good." It's page 10, Day 1. What do you want, cop-confirmed scum?

Who do you think is scum? Where should our votes be? Are you still backing that vote on LynchMePls you got from "skimming" the thread?

Let's see, I said that I didn't think the data case was that good - at least no better than the reason why I was voting for LynchMePls. I've also said that I don't understand why you would think that Square had inside info. That's not disowning any wagon but the Data wagon. I think that either you should be able to explain why you think he had inside information or come up with an actual reason to vote for him. I personally am looking at the data wagon for scum because I think that the way it built up seems like scum had to jump on it.

I'm also awaiting Furry's detailed reasoning since he was pushing the Data wagon and then jumped off without explanation. I'm also not sure if Magna actually caught the unvote when he incorrectly claimed to have put Data at L-1.

[HackerHuck]

First note - apathyplusCUPCAKES needs to actually contribute something. He also seems to have an unexplained interest in Dana.
Bowser put together a very wordy case before voting for Data and we had tack-on votes from Thor, Nikanor, ApathyplusCUPCAKES, Twomz and MOI buried his vote in with some explanation.
This quote actually struck me as I was reading because I was almost thinking the same thing.

I think this latest opportunistic vote on Data says all you need to know about Bowser.

Confirmation bias (or maybe bussing) seems to be at play, because he did ignore all of the other tack-ons that seemed more "opportunistic". That said, Bowser's case on Data seems to be overdone. I'd say that my leading candidates on the datawagon would be Bowser and CUPCAKES.

I'm also awaiting Furry's detailed reasoning since he was pushing the Data wagon and then jumped off without explanation. I'm also not sure if Magna actually caught the unvote when he incorrectly claimed to have put Data at L-1.

He claimed vig. Not sold on him being vig but that easily will straighten itself out. Why point out that MoI asked Data to claim early? Is that a scumtell? Claiming at L-2 is bad?

I know there was some mixup with the times, but I'm pretty sure that you unvoted before he claimed. You certainly did say that you would provide some information about why Square Obscure is scum.
Pressing for a claim at L-2 isn't always scummy, but he was telling Data that he was at L-1, not L-2.

UNVOTE: LynchMePls
VOTE: Bowser

[HackerHuck]

I'm also awaiting Furry's detailed reasoning since he was pushing the Data wagon and then jumped off without explanation. I'm also not sure if Magna actually caught the unvote when he incorrectly claimed to have put Data at L-1.

He claimed vig. Not sold on him being vig but that easily will straighten itself out. Why point out that MoI asked Data to claim early? Is that a scumtell? Claiming at L-2 is bad?

I know there was some mixup with the times, but I'm pretty sure that you unvoted before he claimed. You certainly did say that you would provide some information about why Square Obscure is scum.

Im pretty sure he claimed first given that why I unvoted, also because I say so in my unvote post. Read harder. Reasoning later, with luck between two classes of mine tomorrow, with reality Sunday, sleep now, fever finally broke though. Tah.

OK, looks like I was wrong. Scratch what I said about Magna then, because Data would have been at L-1 when he pressed for the claim. I'm still interested in the Square reasoning, but it's not as important now that I know why you unvoted.

[HackerHuck]

Bluh. I still would like a Data lynch, but we only have three days left. This is probably the next best thing:

Unvote. Vote: Bowser.

Why are you hung up on Data? Worst case is that he's SK and that doesn't really make him much more likely to nightkill a townie than a vig would. Or do you actually think he's mafia? That's a tree you can start barking up if he's still alive in a couple of days.

Bowser's replacement request is disturbing with deadline approaching. If we get a replacement, can we extend the deadline by a day or two to give them time to comment?

Feysal - why don't you think that the mafia can make mistakes? It seems like they're more likely to make mistakes since they're often trying to fabricate cases.

[HackerHuck]

Not worth wasting a lynch on a claimed vig.

I'll probably be away until Monday.

[HackerHuck]

Lol, this case is shit. I'm scum for believing a claim?

Meh, I can point out a few other things when I dont have to leave for class in about ten mintues

I noticed too late that my "strongman fishing" made it incredibly obvious what my role is. I think the scum caught on - now they're using shit logic to get me lynched, and the townlemmings are believing them.

I doubt that you are really a role that has bearing on strongman. If you are then you are probably scum. If you are a doctor, how the hell would you be concerned about protecting the "vig" target? If you are a RB why would you consider RBing the claimed vig? Neither of those make sense from a town perspective. Both of those make sense from a scum prospective.

This is a really good point, but I don't follow what Slaxx was getting at earlier. I also didn't follow Furry's drunken comments regarding the Bowser wagon.

I'm not keen on MoI's directing of night actions, since we don't have consensus around it yet. I think that's something that's more useful later in the game once we have a little more information about kills. Even with kill flavour, there's still the remote possibility that he's mafia taking a gamble. It's even more concerning that he admonished SO for target fishing in the very same post.


Lynchmepls seems to be coasting along and although he's on the SO wagon, he got on early for really odd reasons. I don't see it as a bussing vote though, so he's probably town if Square flips scum.

I'm not done with Bowser, but I'm in agreement that Square's recent comments about Thad/Data are possible scumslips. UNVOTE: Boswer/Untrod
VOTE: Square Obscure

Mod

- Could we get a prod on ApathyCupcakes?

preview edit - I'm pretty sure my vote is L-1, so you'd best claim now.

[HackerHuck]

*Narrows eyes*

I'm actually thinking BP GF or a RBer who plans on targeting ThAd tonight.

Anyone else agree with me? I don't want to put him at L-1 if I'm the only one who doubts the claim.

He could also be Nightkill immune SK. I think there are a number of roles that would allow him to survive, but I don't really see how his claim jives well with the strongman question.

I'm pretty confident in my vote-count, so anyone voting for him now should consider themselves the hammer.


yet another preview edit:
MoI - Not keen is fence-sitting. You said something that I wanted to make note of as potentially scummy. As you said, it's not outright direction, but I don't see a pro-town benefit in making that comment. It tends to invite more discussion about who should be killed. Considering your view that Square was fishing, I would think you would avoid trying to make it obvious who should be targeted.

re: LynchMePls, I'm curious why you think it's buddying considering my earlier stance on him. You're also hanging on the latter part of that statement. I think his vote on Square looks scummy because it's pretty weak (based on hydra issues) and he's been coasting. However, if Square is scum, that's not a good bussing vote, because scum can usually put together better cases on their partners than that one.

[HackerHuck]

I'm curious why you think it's buddying considering my earlier stance on him. You're also hanging on the latter part of that statement. I think his vote on Square looks scummy because it's pretty weak (based on hydra issues) and he's been coasting. However, if Square is scum, that's not a good bussing vote, because scum can usually put together better cases on their partners than that one.

It strikes me as buddying for the exact reason you stated – your earlier stance on LMP. He was your first scum-pick on replacing in. You have repeatedly stated his vote was weak. I don’t see LMP as a lazy player. So a weak case from him is not a Town-tell IMO, especially on a scum target. So the sudden turn around I find odd. Also, why don’t you state what you think of LMP if Square flips Town. It feels like you know that it is a forgone conclusion.

You're twisting around what I said here. I think that his actions

are

scummy. I expect scum to put together weak cases on town and stronger cases on scum since it's much easier to identify scummy actions when you know someone's scum. I don't see them as being partners, but I find Square scummier right now. I think that the logical train of thought from what I said is that LynchMePls is scummy,

unless

Square is scum. I don't see how you can say that I now consider him town. That sounds more like

you

think it's a foregone conclusion.

I also find his most recent post quite valid. Feysal needs to take a stand here. We've had two good wagons since Data and he's not bothered to commit one way or another to either one of them. Has he even voted?

Spyrex isn't making any sense. If there's a way to confirm the BP

townie

without outing another power role, this chucklehead would like to hear it.

[HackerHuck]

Those other wagons don't look too viable at the moment and I'm not in favor of getting another claim out there today. If we're going to move wagons this late, it should be toward the Bowser/Untrod slot, but we someone just needs to end this day.

[HackerHuck]

while I like a bowser lynch, I'm not getting all the cold feet on Square. There's nothing I've seen out of any of you that indicates he's likely town. It just seems like you have other people you want to lynch. While that's normally a good reason to start another wagon, we've wound down our time on this day.

[HackerHuck]

I'm surprised that this isn't locked yet.

MoI - I like the buddying to the mod, but I still don't like making suggestions to the claimed vig. I do find it interesting that you ignored Nikanor in your suggestions considering he acted just like Cupcake. The only difference is that he actually dropped the hammer.

ThAd - did you decide on the flavour for your kill?

[HackerHuck]

This did look pretty bad yesterday.

VOTE: Feysal

[HackerHuck]

@ThAd: Yes, we want to hear your reasons.

So the case against Feysal is pretty much that he fencesat all day 1, commented that Bowser was 'odder' than SO but neither was scummy (ISO 7) and never laid down a vote on anyone?

Yes, but there's also more than that. Look at his meta-defence of SO at the end of the day. I'm also willing to listen to Spyrex even after he was so wrong yesterday.

[HackerHuck]

Slaxx, it's pretty obvious who would benefit most from knowing whether the doctor is dead.

Feysal's silence is telling.

Let's hold off on more Feysal votes until we get a vote-count. I saw a couple of would-be votes that might not be counted due to formatting/syntax, so I've got him at either 5 or 7 votes. We at least need a claim before ending this day.

[HackerHuck]

You're turning something that isn't scummy into something that is.

I missed exactly what MoI was referring to at first, so I agree with you here. I don't know how asking that could be considered role-fishing. I had thought he was using the old scumtell of 'darn, looks like we lost the doc last night'. Maybe that's not used much anymore, but it used to be thrown out as a scumtell.

It's a little harsh to call out Cupcakes as a target for lurking when we blew through this day pretty quick. Give the guy a chance to contribute and if he keeps slacking, then we go after him.

Preview Edit:
Untrod - Do you think scum would be given a double-vote ability?

[HackerHuck]

Preview Edit:
Untrod - Do you think scum would be given a double-vote ability?

I don't think it's out of the question that there's another role that gives one player a double vote every day.

What exactly do you mean by that? I was asking whether you think a double vote ability might be too strong/unbalanced/unlikely to give scum, but you seem to be answering a question I didn't ask.

[HackerHuck]

It's a little harsh to call out Cupcakes as a target for lurking when we blew through this day pretty quick. Give the guy a chance to contribute and if he keeps slacking, then we go after him.

The short nature of Day 2 does not absolve ApCakes of their HORRIBLE Day 1 slacking. Your defense of ApCakes is noted.

Don't try and misrep me here. I'm not saying he's town, just that that ThAd may want to go after people that are more obviously scummy rather than just lurking. I'm not a fan of these late breaking 'cases' and statements that only seem to be said to influence night actions.

[HackerHuck]

Hah.

People took me seriously, always a fatal error. If someone wants to give me a double vote though, feel free.

Why would you admit that now? You could have been a good mafia NK target, instead of them going after ThAd or looking for other power roles. Next time you pull that gambit, you should wait until the following day to reveal your trick.

Knew yall were lurking though, like how it went all post explosion as soon as I "hammered". Fun stuff... fun stuff.

We did get to a lynch though, right? I'm a little puzzled by the Mod's lack of vote count.

Im against the APC vig given his 'twilight' post. NC or Thor probably need to bite the bullet/lazor phazor, actually leaning Thor over NC. Slaxx is making me super twitchy, especially how he went from "idk about SO to SO is scum" in a three hour period. Need to look into that one tonight, AGM is obviously town though from past reading.

How do you get that Alamaster is obviously town from the little that he's posted?

[HackerHuck]

I didn't think that the Tripod kill was such a bad idea, but CES is right. With the possibility that ThAd is an SK, there's probably less risk from making his choices known than from him trying to avoid hitting scum.

Thor and ThAd -why do you think that Nero is town?

[HackerHuck]

@Hacker - I already presented my case such as it is, I'll (p)add that his lurking play and antsy attitude towards the SO lynch help. Also I think his case on MoI was pretty unfair.

I got why you think that Cupcakes is scum, but why do you think that Nero is town? The only thing I've got is that he's likely newbie town, not newbie scum.

[HackerHuck]

Magna, I don't really see how your VC analysis was much different than Twomz. I also disagree about Thor's place on the D1 wagon clearing him. How about a little substance to back up those ISO reads?

The Untrod wagon was the secondary wagon of the day and there was definitely a push to avoid SO at the last minute. I could see a scum partner trying to help in that late day push when Spyrex would get most of the attention for how he tried to stop the lynch. It would also explain why Feysal avoided the Untrod Wagon.

At least you didn't make a bunch of excuses for Nero. I'm on board with his lynch. I certainly don't get a newbie vibe from him, so I'm not sure why some people think he's not scummy for that. Looking at him in ISO, he's done very little in the way of scumhunting. He parked his vote D1 on MoI without really commenting on any of the other two big wagons (to his credit he did address the early Data wagon). He continued that on Day2, where he really avoiding contributing any thoughts to the Feysal wagon except for saying that he didn't really need to give him a chance to vote since Feysal was posting elsewhere on site. In that same post, he unvotes (Thor) without hammering Feysal, instead choosing to throw suspicion on APC and CES while asking CES why APC shouldn't be lynched.

Feysal's silence is telling.

Let's hold off on more Feysal votes until we get a vote-count. I saw a couple of would-be votes that might not be counted due to formatting/syntax, so I've got him at either 5 or 7 votes. We at least need a claim before ending this day.

I was about to get on and say we should give Feysal a chance to post but then I saw he was active yesterday morning.

Last visited: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:42 am

unvote

I'd also support a APC or CES lynch. Kat likes to complain about misreps when scum so her last post doesn't sit well with me.

CES whats stupid about lynchin' APC?

This one's pretty obvious to me, although I'm not so sure who to have ThAd target. VOTE: Nero Cain


Can we get a prod/replacement request on Alamaster? I know that day 2 went pretty fast, but he only had two posts, neither of which had any content. We also haven't heard from him yet today.

[HackerHuck]

@Hacker - if you don't get a newbie vibe from Nero at all what sort of scum vibe are you getting? His cases have all been pretty off the wall, what do you see as his logic?

Someone making off the wall cases as town is unlikely to have an epiphany as scum and start making rational coherent ones. I'm basing my scum read on his actions.
I'm pretty sure I voted him already, but the VC says otherwise. VOTE: Nero Cain just to make sure.

I'm a little torn about directing the nightkill. If MoI is right that there could be as many as four mafia left (it does seem a bit high to me), then an SK can't just go around offing townies. I think we're probably better off leaving them in the dark and just putting ThAd on warning.

Mod

- What's the real deadline? I doubt it's October 31st

Erm...oops, guess I forgot to change that part of the old file. The correct deadline is November 28th at 11:00 a.m. CST.

[HackerHuck]

Magna, I don't really see how your VC analysis was much different than Twomz. I also disagree about Thor's place on the D1 wagon clearing him. How about a little substance to back up those ISO reads?

The Untrod wagon was the secondary wagon of the day and there was definitely a push to avoid SO at the last minute. I could see a scum partner trying to help in that late day push when Spyrex would get most of the attention for how he tried to stop the lynch. It would also explain why Feysal avoided the Untrod Wagon.

As I stated I did not have time for a full analysis but wanted to get my thoughts laid out.

Are you trying to say that Feysal avoided the Untrod Wagon because it had fellow scum on it? Why wouldn’t Thor as scum do the same near the end of the day?

I wasn't really trying to speculate on why Feysal avoided the Untrod Wagon. My point was more that your argument for clearing Thor is unfounded. There's a big difference between mafia joining one buddy on a small wagon and mafia joining two buddies on a small wagon. It also makes sense for scum to try and get the Untrod wagon moving because Nero was other alternative at that time, and he sure looks to be scum.

Re: MoI's big Votecount Analysis
Not sure how my actions are considered scummy. I thought Untrod was scum and I would have been pushing for his lynch today had he not turned up dead.
That's a nice big list of accusing everyone but yourself, our Vig/SK, and Thor. I should also add Alamaster, but I can see why you might have forgotten to add him to your list.

[HackerHuck]

Re: MoI's big Votecount Analysis
Not sure how my actions are considered scummy. I thought Untrod was scum and I would have been pushing for his lynch today had he not turned up dead.
That's a nice big list of accusing everyone but yourself, our Vig/SK, and Thor. I should also add Alamaster, but I can see why you might have forgotten to add him to your list.

Your attempt to discredit indirectly is noted. Let’s address your points, shall I?

1. I’ve explained my thought process as to why your vote flow might be indicative of scum. Do you directly disagree that your late move (like the other players I mentioned) to Square is worthy of review?
2. I’m not going to put myself on my list to ISO and review. I know my own alignment. It’s rather stupid for you to suggest I should be my own suspect.
3. Admiral isn’t under suspicion because I am looking for relational tells for Mafia. He’s proven he’s a repeatable second kill and thus not Mafia. It’s hard to mine relational tells for a Serial Killer
4. Despite AGM’s lack of input his consistency in terms of Square backs up my Town read on him. Had he been a Mafian with Square I find it hard to believe he’d not have throw his support some other way at some point.

If you’d like to take a look at the Raw Data and make a better analysis knock yourself out. All I see here you doing here is criticizing not scum-hunting.

I thought my attempt to discredit was pretty apparent. I chose to look more at actions throughout the last two days than a wagon analysis, but I don't fault you for your choice of attack. I am criticising because you were giving the appearance of scum hunting with all of that noise.

I understand why you didn't put yourself on the list and why ThAd wasn't there. If you take away Alamaster (who I just assumed you forgot about in your review), then your big wall of text said - "I should look at everybody except Thor." When a long analysis like that brings no real results (you had already posted that opinion about why Thor was town), then it just looks like you're pretending to scumhunt without taking a strong position. It's exactly what you called Twomz scummy for doing.

[HackerHuck]

Sorry about the absence. Just finished up a pair of classes that took a lot more work than I expected, so I won't be disappearing like that again.

I'm not following Furry's train of thought at all, but I'm more concerned about how Thor kept trying to bring me into that argument. Simplistically, I get that Furry doesn't think I'm bussing Nero, so we can't be scum together. It's mostly his other posts that I find confusing. Anyway, I still think Nero's the best play for today. If I had to pick CES or Twomz, I'd chose Twomz. I'm find CES' apparent scumminess based on his lack of effort rather than any scummy actions. I think he can definitely wait from a lynch perspective. I would really like to understand why people think that nero is just playing newbie or VI. I realise that he doesn't have the most conventional thought process, but that's not a townie tell. If you look at what he hasn't done, that's where you find the scumminess. The fact that he's mostly ignored Feysal and SO strikes me as plenty odd, yet people seem to be overlooking that. Given his play, I also wouldn't be surprised to see his partners bussing him because it's been relatively safe the way that some people are protecting him.

[HackerHuck]

Personally I think Furry brought you into the conversation, not me. He mentioned us as the pairing and *then* I started discussing it - how exactly did I bring it up in your mind?

Furry did, my intent wasn't to make it sound like you brought up the subject. It's just a little offputting when someone I suspect keeps putting their name next to mine in post after post. Now that I've gone back through your posts in iso, your comments make much more sense with your stance on Nero. I'd definitely like to see where Furry was trying to go with that.

HH's reaction to the wagon is fencesitty, and I'm not sure how scummy right now (time will tell).
...

vote: HackerHuck

, I think the best bet at snagging scum today is to go after one of the people sitting on a wagon that had support (even if not from votes). NC had a lot of flak earlier today, although many people seem to be saying he's likely a VI. I think that could make scum want to sit on the beginning of the wagon so that if it picks back up closer to deadline they'll be in a position to say that they were on it the whole time to try to defuse blame on a mislynch.
...
I don't mind if y'all call me overdefensive or a fensesitter or w/e. Those could appear true to some people, and why should I judge how others perceive my posts? I'm willing to debate the scumminess of those actions and I'm also willing to accept if you decide I'm scum based on them. Lynching, or even wagoning me because of the random.org comment is just as stupid as lynching me cause I happen to live an hour away from Mith (unless he's moved from Tyler or I'm thinking of someone else).

Not sure how I'm considered fence-sitty on your wagon (or how that's scummy given what you said in that same post). Someone mentioned that I needed to either push for Nero or to pick a side on the CES/Twomz wagons. I still think that Nero is our best option for today - and it seems you feel he's a good option as well, since you think he's a good target for ThAd. I think I said that if I had to pick one of those two wagons, I would pick you over CES because I have more of a town read on CES. I'd prefer to look elsewhere if I had to pick an alternate wagon. Thor's looking a little better now that I've read him in iso, but I'd not be opposed to his lynch and I've also had my eye on MoI for while now.

[HackerHuck]

OK, I seriously need to understand the reasoning behind the APC wagon. He's been lurking (or rather inactive as I see it), yet none of you felt the need to try and get him prodded and/or replaced. The little bit of content he posted seemed pretty pro-town to me. Just look at the case on MoI that came out of the blue at the end of the day. It not only made sense, but it's not going after one of the usual suspects and it was floated out there when no one was really expecting anything out of him. I'll move to Twomz for the deadline lynch, but I really think we need to go in another direction like nero/camn.

mod

Can we get a brief extension if camn doesn't show up to post in a timely manner?

[HackerHuck]

After Hacker's post I'm less for APC's lynch and more for a Hacker lynch. Still happy with a Twomz lynch. I've got warm bubblies towards ThAd, but mostly because he called me town. That scum haven't gone after him at least shows that they believe he is a SK instead of a vig methinks, which does make me wonder about the people angling on ThAd. Probably should re-read and look at who did it, when, and how (this is my usual open invitation if someone else is excited by this, because I am lazy). I'm really lost on my Slaxx read.

So because I was asking why people were pushing for APC, you realised that you didn't have a reason and just decided to switch to me?

But yeah, I usually don't read rules, so I admit I was surprised by the finding of daytalk. This means more headaches.

This was me too. If I had known about the daytalk, I certainly would have used it in my defence. As it was, my comments about Feysal in iso 15 were commenting on his scumminess, which is one of the things that I noted Nero was doing - ignoring the big wagons. There was enough movement at the end of day one, that Feysal's lack of stance really stood out. It's probably part of the reason why Spyrex investigated him.

Camn - with the extension, there's still plenty of time left before deadline. If CES and Twomz are so obviously scum, you should be able to come up with why before the weekend.

[HackerHuck]

I was wondering if Camn would be acting as scummy as Nero and it looks like I'm right.

Alamaster - you never said why Slaxx was scummy and more than half of your posts have some reference to him being scum. Can you elaborate?

[HackerHuck]

I was wondering if Camn would be acting as scummy as Nero and it looks like I'm right.

Alamaster - you never said why Slaxx was scummy and more than half of your posts have some reference to him being scum. Can you elaborate?

YOU didnt say why I am 'scummy' and then scolded someone else for doing the same.

Can YOU elaborate?

And I persist in my position that I TOTALLY SEE THE VALUE (esPECIALLY if they are unconfirmed)... but I will leave it in the hands of the player or players involved.

...and you're not explaining why there is value. Since neighbour is used specifically to mean unconfirmed, I'm not seeing how it could help. The most obvious reason for not claiming is that scum hunting for power roles have one less person to go after. I actually have explained why I felt that Nero was scum, but I'd like you to point out to me anywhere Alamaster gives a reason for his persistent sniping at Slaxx.

I was wondering if Camn would be acting as scummy as Nero and it looks like I'm right.

If you feel camn is scummy why aren’t you voting for her as opposed to throwing rhetoric around?

My case on Nero didn't going anywhere yesterday and I'm certainly not going to park my vote on Camn without having something more to try and convince people with. I don't see you doing anything different.

Also you didn’t bother to answer the following question I asked before the Day ended yesterday. Get on it–

2. Please explain how his case ‘made sense’. He dropped this issue the minute that I questioned him about the lack of support and the fact that he stripped all context out of my posts.

I'm amazed that you have the gall to ask that question twice. APC didn't drop anything. He continued to suspect you, but he was MIA most of that day. You actually didn't question him about it, in fact you just waved your hand and tried to make it go away. He presented evidence that showed you were hopping on the hot wagons and your response was 'it was taken out of context'. I would say that the burden would be on you to show what the context was that explained why you weren't just hopping on the leading wagons.

[HackerHuck]

@camn - what do you see as the incriminating aspect of the VC analysis that screams that HH is scum?

I'm guessing that it's this...

...
Vote Count 3.2
(2) Camn:

apathyplusCUPCAKES

, HackerHuck
Vote Count 3.3
(2) Camn:

apathyplusCUPCAKES

, HackerHuck
Vote Count 3.4
(2) Camn:

apathyplusCUPCAKES

, HackerHuck
Vote Count 3.5
(1) camn: HackerHuck
Final Day 3 Vote Count
(1) camn: HackerHuck

[HackerHuck]

I guess I could see a CES-HH pairing here.

I can understand why you were thinking that, but now you can understand why. I can confirm everything that CES said about the neighbour piece.

P.S. We shouldn't stop vigging or we'll never get to lynching the good players like Furry and MoI.

I note of course you don’t say lynching the scummy good players … just the good players.

Really? Are you trying to call this a scumtell?

ISO of HackerHuck’s interactions with Square and Feysal

–

The data wagon was a weak day-1 wagon that built a lot of steam without a lot of content. There's probably scum there (waiting for the 'no duh' comment) and I don't see how Alamaster can honestly think that Square had inside info from it.

First mention by name or response to either know scum. Note the soft-defense of Square regarding a charge made by AGM that Square had inside knowledge.

ISO 8 further develops his ISO 6 and directly asks AGM further explain why he thought SquareOb had inside (scum) information.

speaking of taking things out of context. Did you even bother to look at what caused Alamaster to say he thought SquareOb had inside info?

Lynchmepls seems to be coasting along and although he's on the SO wagon, he got on early for really odd reasons. I don't see it as a bussing vote though, so he's probably town if Square flips scum.

I'm not done with Bowser, but I'm in agreement that Square's recent comments about Thad/Data are possible scumslips. UNVOTE: Boswer/Untrod
VOTE: Square Obscure

1. Notice the buddying to LMP, who we know is Town.
2. Speaking of odd reasoning for jumping on a wagon – exhibit A. He’s spent various early ISO arguing against SquareOb having inside information regarding Admiral and making a slip. Suddenly we have a 180 right here with no other reasoning as to why he’s voting for Square other than he’s the obv lynch for the day.

Buddying? I had been voting for him and I say he does something scummy, but because I said that it's not a bussing comment it's considered buddying? Why would scum buddy with someone only to kill him off?

...That’s the end of Day 1. Note that he’s mentioned Feysal by name twice all day and then begins Day 2 with the following.

This did look pretty bad yesterday.

VOTE: Feysal

Lastly we have the following –

Yes, but there's also more than that. Look at his meta-defence of SO at the end of the day. I'm also willing to listen to Spyrex even after he was so wrong yesterday.

Reading through the lens of hindsight this looks like scum who knows Spyrex has some sort of role-based knowledge about Feysal.

If I were scum, I would have killed Spyrex night 1. He breadcrumbed cop pretty well on day 1. That's why I followed him on D2.

Spyrex isn't making any sense. If there's a way to confirm the BP townie without outing another power role, this chucklehead would like to hear it.

I never, ever said there wouldn't be other pieces for it to be done.

However, going "WELP" in this situation makes little sense but time is a factor so I dont see it swinging around now.

IF I WERE A GUY WHO HAD A GUN and I'm right about SO I'd done be shooting someone on that wagon (hint: Twomz).

[HackerHuck]

Re: Neighbour questions-
From what I read, CES first suggested Slaxx because he was active, and he didn't have a read on him. Katsuki then suggested me as an alternative for those same reasons and because Slaxx had been recently prodded. Kastuki didn't really say anything to make me think that he was town, but I figured that I could get a better read out of him as a neighbour.

Also thanks for not even addressing your horrible 180 on SquareOb.

Anyone see any reason not to vote for Hacker at this juncture?

If I were scum, I would have killed Spyrex night 1. He breadcrumbed cop pretty well on day 1. That's why I followed him on D2.

Self-meta is tech. But it is funny that you see Cop in Spyrex’s quote. I see that as a classic Spyrex “If I was a Vig” (you know, the people who DEFINITELY carry a gun?) rhetoric statements.

I'd like you to show me how I made a 180 on Square? At what point did I ever consider him town?
I guess maybe you're a little embarrassed that you missed the cop-tell and lost a scumpartner. Maybe if I cut off the bit of the quote that you focused on, it would be more apparent.

Spyrex isn't making any sense. If there's a way to confirm the BP townie without outing another power role, this chucklehead would like to hear it.

I never, ever said there wouldn't be other pieces for it to be done.

So what kind of power role would have to be outed to clear a BP townie? I would guess a cop or possibly a watcher. I was a little surprised when he flipped tracker, since I don't see how that role could clear anyone.
So now you've managed to ignore your previous votecount 'analysis' (although it did call everyone but Thor scummy) and now based on your outstanding analysis of yesterday (I'm scummy for not voting Twomz), you've fallen into confirmation bias and won't look at any evidence contradicting your case. Need I remind you of Lost mafia, where your stubborn insistence on using only vote-count analysis got me mislynched? I think you're trying to pick me out as the easy lynch today, because you know you'll get a couple of people to sheep you and Thad has already shown some interest in killing me.

Vote: MagnaOfIllusion

[HackerHuck]

I'll go ahead and claim. I'm just a standard SOB operative. My backstory is that I'm a little crazy and untrusting of people after my true love was savagely killed and I took revenge. I'm one bad-ass chick, but I'm looking to get off of Liten ASAP. My flavour is kind of funny considering that I was recruited into the love triangle.

If we're doing popcorn, I want Camn to claim next.

[HackerHuck]

Camn - you should note that my role is not really a neighbour. That was something that just happened to me when CES/APC recruited me.

Magna - My flavor role is a munitions operative, but I have no special abilities.

I’m happy where my vote lies for the moment. Nothing in the mass-claim makes me think Hacker isn’t scum.

And why would it? Massclaim at this point was mainly to set a line so that no one could save themselves at the last minute with a PR claim.

I'm not sure what to think of Alamaster's gut feel on Magna. It's nice to see he's actually got a reason for voting Slaxx/Chesskid, but that post felt a little like buddying to me.

[HackerHuck]

Those claims tends to make me less suspicious of MoI and ThAs.

@camm - I'm an idiot, so no, what do you see?

Why does MoI's claim make you less suspicious of him?

Camn - unless I missed it, there's been no explanation from you about what you saw.

[HackerHuck]

It does seem a little odd that ThAd could be confirmed as a vig given the wording of our win-cons. I'm not sure if this appears in anyone elses flavour, but I noted that mine specifically says my only interest is in leaving Liten - as a human. That had me thinking of a cult-type setup a la Lost Boys Mafia until we got the first flips.

FWIW, I've been neighboured with scum at least twice and that's pretty much how I've played it each time. It's easier to get reads on scum through night-talk than in thread and Katsuki was surprisingly open in the QT considering how bad he was lurking in thread.

[HackerHuck]

Like.. look at this:

HERE, Hacker says this about Apathy.. before he joined the group:

First note - apathyplusCUPCAKES needs to actually contribute something.......<snip>
...... I'd say that my leading candidates on the datawagon would be Bowser and CUPCAKES.

Then, AFTER he joined.. (when, as town, he would have no indication of APC's alignment....) He seems rather defensive of APC. The bold is mine.
This might be nothing.. but to me it reads as scum buddying a townie who is no longer just an easy lynch.. but a potential ally..

OK, I seriously need to understand the reasoning behind the APC wagon. He's been lurking (or rather inactive as I see it), yet none of you felt the need to try and get him prodded and/or replaced.

The little bit of content he posted seemed pretty pro-town to me

Furthermore.. he said that this change in position was NOT because of something APC said in QT. but rather

a strategic retreat becasue he would get a better read on APC in the QT

???

How is that pro-town? Was he going to, like,

TRICK

a hypo APC scum into dropping tells in the QT, and then push his lynch based on that evidence?

Doesn't make sense.

What DOES make sense is the idea that he wanted to strengthen the neighbor-group, for his own advantage. His own

scumvantage

. And pushing APC's scumminess wouldn't do that.

Why are you ignoring the possibility that I actually meant what I said. I did feel that his post at the end of Day 2 was pro-town - maybe you should go back and read it. And no, there's no need to 'trick' someone in the QT to drop tells; it's just another place to get information.

[HackerHuck]

You've managed to take all of that out of context. Nice try.
That whole response was regarding the discussion in the QT.

@ Hacker

It looks like you were rather suspicious Day 1 of Apathy.. but then let up a little bit day 2. Is that accurate? And if so, is it because of something he said to you overnight?

Re: Neighbour questions-
From what I read, CES first suggested Slaxx because he was active, and he didn't have a read on him. Katsuki then suggested me as an alternative for those same reasons and because Slaxx had been recently prodded. Kastuki didn't really say anything to make me think that he was town, but I figured that I could get a better read out of him as a neighbour.

OK, I seriously need to understand the reasoning behind the APC wagon. He's been lurking (or rather inactive as I see it), yet none of you felt the need to try and get him prodded and/or replaced. The little bit of content he posted seemed pretty pro-town to me. Just look at the case on MoI that came out of the blue at the end of the day. It not only made sense, but it's not going after one of the usual suspects and it was floated out there when no one was really expecting anything out of him. I'll move to Twomz for the deadline lynch, but I really think we need to go in another direction like nero/camn.

Given the last part of that quote, I can see why you chose to omit it, but I believe that I gave my reasons for the change of mind. You can choose to believe it or not. On the other point, you can ask CES to confirm. Katsuki probably posted as much in the QT as he did in the gamethread.