The Return to Liten (Game Over)

[camn]

Jesus christ I totally didn't know what I am getting into.

First off: some background and groundrules:

a) StK has been stalking me for months to replace into this game. I kept saying no, but like indie-rock boys my entire life, he persisted until I said yes.

Well, y'know, ever since I spied on you, Ojanen, and Incognito in the bedroom that one night...um...

b) I am not catch-up reading right away. I wish I could, but I cant. I will read Spyrex's posts soon.. but that is all.

c) I barely know you guys so here is a little tidbit. During the day I am away from a computer. I have an Ipod I can read on.. but posting is a PITA.. so I am often missing for the work day.. but I am usually reading along.

d) I am a bloodthirsty, belligerent whore. And I am feeling especially sassy right now!

e) I am going to flavorclaim immediately.

I am Bill Guy, a Human 'electronics operative

' I dont yet even know what that means.

f) I dont know what Liten is. Is it real? Is it a book or something? did Stk make it up? wtf.

Liten is my own creation (although there is a game that precedes this in terms of storyline). Feel free to ask me about stuff that confuses you.

[camn]

OK some more.
I have only glanced at this page (i gotta go to bed!) But I will say that I am PRO LYNCHING THE SERIAL KILLER NOW!!!

It looks like you guys had a GREAT couple lynches.
That means we are AHEAD right now. We can afford a mislynch, if this THAD is actually a vig.
But if he ISNT then it will only get more risky to lynch him as the game goes on.

So the question is: are we hoping the scum will kill him? Or should we do it?

I will try and do some reading tomorrow and check in again tomorrow night.
Deadline is Wed? I will get a vote up by then.

[camn]

Will he refrain from killing tonight, to prove he isn't compulsive?

[camn]

Ok.. I have read the first 20 pages, quickly, and I have a significant townlist going.

I will post more comprehensively later.. But for now, let's put a sucka at L-1, hmm?

UNVOTE
Vote TWOMZ

You are on my "suspect" list after 20 pages...
Imagine my joy when I flipped forward and found you the voteleader too!

[camn]

ok.. i have mostly skimmed the whole game.

here are some stream of conciousness notes to self:
Scum in here for sure [HackerHuck, Twomz, Cogito Ergo Sum].. maybe 2,

All town, IMO: [AlmasterGM, LynchMePlz, Slaxx, ThAdmiral, MagnaofIllusion]
swiniging the Unpod wagon onto SqOb was a giant, town-driven move.

CES is mega scummy.... so is Twomz
Furry and MoI are uber-town.

Few coaching comments to Feysal during the first day. ...

Furry, Can you show me these? If HH was coaching..... I would call that a TOWN tell, given scum daytalk.

Also, your post 777 is a GREAT point re: APC jumping the gun.

Mafia Doc DOES imply Vig not SK. Agreed there.

HEY TWOMZ

!
What is your 'Game Role' and your 'Flavor Role'?

--------
preview edit:
I actually skipped my predecessor in my readthrough.
I have no opinion on him from what I noticed. A couple votes I didnt agree with, IIRC.

[camn]

no, not a single bit of it is gut.
I read the first half of the game on my ipod though....So I didn't take ANY notes. Just names on a napkin.
36 pages is a lot to cover!
A lot of my reads were formed by peoples behavior surrounding the wagon-swing day 1 from Bowser's replacement onto the D1 scumlynch... There were some moves there that would have been INCONCEIVABLE for scum to make. this gave me a number of townreads.
Then a lot of my Null reads got knocked off.. leaving a pretty short list of UNKNOWNS... THEN as I read the second half two suspects came into bright focus.
YOU and Cogito Ergo Sum.
There were specific posts that make you both scum.. but I was in a hurry, and I didnt take extensive notes. NO time, no time. Ill need to go back this weekend anyway and take another look... and we will have the benefit of another flip then wont we?

SO. Why did you withhold your 'Game Role' when you claimed initially?

Also.. question to everyone: Any other religious themes? I really glossed over a lot of the VC flavor.. any religious themes there?

[camn]

So does this track? A religious Marine?

When I read Twomz claim.. I had a real Cylon-inspired idea that he had a religious theme in his SCUM PM, and just translated it over.
Like, the aliens have a one-true-god thing going on, right?

[camn]

Guys, there's no way SaintKerrigan didn't give FULL fakeclaims in a game with this much flavor. Stop with the nonsense.

Don't worry, though, we can still lynch Twomz.

That is a good point.. and we are GOING to lynch Twomz.... but I am still catching up here, so I have funny questions

[camn]

^^scumposting

[camn]

wut

If scum had daytalk wouldn't he not need to be pushing in thread?

/mind implodes

My point exactly.

Cogito: you are scum.
You are getting vigged tonight.
So just go drink a beer and let us grown folks figure out who your partners are!
I got daytalk from reading the rules. Don't try and act like you don't know about it... noone is falling for that.

[camn]

Dont be a moron.
Its rule #3, and i had at least scanned EVERYTHING by the time i wrote that. (slower than expected at work)
Was that not clear from my post, Alamastet? (<--honest question)

@slaxx
It's a scumposting because he is chainsawing.

If he wanted to defend TWOMZ... Why not just come out and do it?
Why the snark? Why attack my question?

And aside from that, since when is this flavor set in Texas in 2002?
And if it WAS, then show me the god-flavor. That would be an appropriate answer.
Not sarcasm. That is the scum answer.

[camn]

b) I am not catch-up reading right away. I wish I could, but I cant. I will read Spyrex's posts soon.. but that is all.

But you DID have time to read the comprehensive list of rules.

HMM.

Hmm. I double checked... An it was VERY CLEAR how much I have read.
Either you are skimming, or you are trying to intentionally mislead people who are.

Which is it?

[camn]

@moi:

I think the daytalk popped out at me because I recently was reminded how much of a tool that can be. (read: we got killed by a daytalking scumteam). There was a similar coaching-towntell in that game.
Re: thadmiral, you are correct. Initially I thought we had a real SKiller... But his play + mafia doc leans me toward big.
Also: I flavorclaimed because I figured that EVERYONE would have by now.... !

[camn]

That's why it is a towntell.
Also.. IMO, ACCUSING someone of coaching would also be a towntell.
Any bona Fide ignorance of daytalk would be a towntell.

Of course, this only applies to events before I replaced in.
And wifom applies to really experienced players.

[camn]

Agreed.

[camn]

I think Furry and Mangaofullusion.Are no-Vig

[camn]

Also, why are we making anti-hit lists instead of just hit lists.

Well, I think the theory is pretty good:
If we all picked a target for the Vig, then:

If the target was scum, the scum would block or protect (if they can) or possibly kill the vig (which wouldn't be terrible at this point).... so the odds of scum dying would be low.. if it can be avoided..

on the other hand, if the target were TOWN, then the scum would say 'WHEW" and leave the vig alone totally, knowing a townie dies tonight and they are totally safe. Plus, since the scum would have had a hand in the decision to begin with, this is the choice tht would actually happen.

OTOH..
if we lay out some targets we PERSONALLY will take offense to vigging.. the vig himself gets to decide what he wants. Vig our townreads and risk our wrath? Vig US because of our townreads? Vig someone else because he thinks our townreads are good? All great.
The scum, on the other hand, have no guidance on what to do with thier actions tonight. At best, they panic, kill the Vig, and we dont have to worry that he is a serial killer anymore.

Make sense?

[camn]

Who was neighbored to apathy?

[camn]

It achieves something.

[camn]

I was wondering if Camn would be acting as scummy as Nero and it looks like I'm right.

Alamaster - you never said why Slaxx was scummy and more than half of your posts have some reference to him being scum. Can you elaborate?

YOU didnt say why I am 'scummy' and then scolded someone else for doing the same.

Can YOU elaborate?

And I persist in my position that I TOTALLY SEE THE VALUE (esPECIALLY if they are unconfirmed)... but I will leave it in the hands of the player or players involved.

[camn]

Explaining it would ruin them value!

God I wish SPYREX were still alive. He understands.

[camn]

VOTE: HackerHuck

God I love VC analysis.

Some scum jumped on that Square Obscure wagon... had to of happened. had to.
Willing to go for CES, too. Same reason

[camn]

if Furry and MOI are scum, then they have already won this game. They are as town as the day is long.

[camn]

You are so much more fluent than I am!
But it seems we agree totally.

As for lylo... There is no way to really reason it out without massclaim and a thadmiral flip.
I think we need Thad to hold of shooting one of these nights to prove he isn't compulsive.... On the other hand, if he stops shooting, there is no reason for the scum to kill him.
Good for him. Bad for our price of mind.

We can play it either way IMO....
Ideally we would see a scumlynch in Hacker and a scumvig of CES.... If you want one gal's opinion.

[camn]

Ps: dear cupcake's neighbor:
every moment that goes by without your claim adds to the likelihood that I will drill home your lynch if you get run up and forced to claim.

Just sayin.

Hold off if you have a good reason.
Or if you cant see why I want to know.
But think it over.

[camn]

Two questions: 1: Alignment confirmed or not?
2: if there's the extra shot, I don't mind being vigged, if this slot has been lurky all game. I'd obviously prefer not to get shot, but if it's going to be a problem, i'm cool with that. Going to read up in a few hours, and to avoid any confirmation bias, I didn't look at any flips.

^^total scumposting.

1) CES: Just so I get this straight, you, Apathy, and Hackerhuck have a QT that you can use at night?

2) Im leaving town this weekend.. so I might be kind of minimal.

[camn]

Squares claim was obviously poorly coached.
Daytalk doesn't prohibit bad play... it just prohibits TRUE in-thread coaching.
THat is scum sending a message to each other in thread? That tell is blown with daytalk.

Scum NOT send each other messages.. or maybe sending each other bad messages in their QT? still totally possible.

Coaching is not a tell in this game.

[camn]

So.. looking through Apathy's posts.. this is the only reference I see to CES.

I have yet to read what happened on the last page. If this was not covered, then someone still needs to explain the case on CES, as I did not get it prior to my last posts.

I'm also not getting this

"CES is scum"

thing.

It seems to me that Apathy is relatively open to the CES-As-Town idea. . . . def not much suspicion voiced there. I wonder if they WERE suspicious of their partner..

Question to CES

: when you first replaced into this game.. did you think Apathy might be scum? If so (or if not), did Apathy do or say anything in your QT to convince you otherwise?

ALso... what made you pick HackerHuck to join your group?
ALSOALSO... were you intentionally avoiding any mention of Apathy or Hacker in this game so far? Or is it coincidence that they are barely mentioned?

@ Hacker

It looks like you were rather suspicious Day 1 of Apathy.. but then let up a little bit day 2. Is that accurate? And if so, is it because of something he said to you overnight?

[camn]

Agree with massclaim

[camn]

I am an SOB operative. An Electonics Operative, flavor-wise. Other than my electronics skills, I have no special powers...

Cogito ero-- gogogogo

[camn]

P.S. camn, care to explain your "neighbors should claim"-stance now?

Soon.
I wonder if anyone else sees what I do.
Regarding how the neighbors acted in-thread.

[camn]

My pologies for my light content lately... It has been a busy week.
ok.. quick summary. no analysis.. i just want it all in one place. PLease correct me if I mis-quoted:

chesskid3

nopointinactingup Slaxx

(as Chuck Norris)

SoB operative/VT

ThAdmiral

Data

(as Jezebel Bahha, AKA "Jezzy")

[VIG]

Furry

(as Leslie Hampton, AKA "Furry")

Im the Former Govenor of Liten, Colonist which means vanilla.

MagnaofIllusion

(as Evelyn Falconi, AKA "Kestrel")

Flavor Role - Psychic Operative
Game Role – Reconnaissance Operative
2 Shot Commuter

AlmasterGM

* (as Pal Bixton)

VT aka SOB operative aka combat operative

camn

Nero Cain

(as Bill Guy)

I am an SOB operative. An Electonics Operative, flavor-wise.

HackerHuck

*

Nobody Special

(as Marsha Thompson, AKA "Black Cat")

a standard SOB operative

[neighbored to CES]

Thor665

(as Joshua Gordon)

I'm a transexual ( at least SK will get the joke). I'm a scientist. I'm vanilla.

Cogito Ergo Sum

daniel94581

(as Dylan Richards)

I have no powers beyond my neighborness.

[neighbored to hackerhuck]

[camn]

Here's the deal:
Imagine you were a scum neighbor.
How would you act in thread?
Would you distance yourself from your partner... Knowing they were town?
Would you ignore them?

I think neither.
I think you would see it as a perfect chance to buddy up with them... Safely.
If someone called you out on it, eventually you could admit that you WERE in fact linked.
So I think scum definately doesnt ignore their partner. They try to, as subtly as possible, LINK themselves to the town via the partnership.

Town, on the other hand, truly has no knowledge of their partner's alignment. Thus they would play with the natural wariness any townie would have. They may crumb the connection.. But not just implicitly trust the person... And definitely not buddy up.

Does anyone disagree?

[camn]

@camn

– So what does your theory indicated about CES / Hacker, in your opinion?

Well... as much as it pains me, I think it tells me that CES is town.
He almost pathologically ignores his buddy, which is consistent with a townie either a) not wanting to out his town-neighbor, or b) not wanting to be linked with a scum-neighbor....
There is no scum reason to avoid being linked to someone you know is town.

On the other hand, Hacker seems to change his behavior when he joins the group. He goes soft on Apathy.
To me, this is because he was crapcasing apathy before he joined.. and had to amend that afterward. If he here town, joining the group would mean very little in re: to his scumreads.... and he would have no reason to ease up.
Also.. when I asked him about this.. he just said : "I figured that I could get a better read out of him as a neighbour". That rings ingenuine to me. HH is scum.

[camn]

Like.. look at this:

HERE, Hacker says this about Apathy.. before he joined the group:

First note - apathyplusCUPCAKES needs to actually contribute something.......<snip>
...... I'd say that my leading candidates on the datawagon would be Bowser and CUPCAKES.

Then, AFTER he joined.. (when, as town, he would have no indication of APC's alignment....) He seems rather defensive of APC. The bold is mine.
This might be nothing.. but to me it reads as scum buddying a townie who is no longer just an easy lynch.. but a potential ally..

OK, I seriously need to understand the reasoning behind the APC wagon. He's been lurking (or rather inactive as I see it), yet none of you felt the need to try and get him prodded and/or replaced.

The little bit of content he posted seemed pretty pro-town to me

Furthermore.. he said that this change in position was NOT because of something APC said in QT. but rather

a strategic retreat becasue he would get a better read on APC in the QT

???

How is that pro-town? Was he going to, like,

TRICK

a hypo APC scum into dropping tells in the QT, and then push his lynch based on that evidence?

Doesn't make sense.

What DOES make sense is the idea that he wanted to strengthen the neighbor-group, for his own advantage. His own

scumvantage

. And pushing APC's scumminess wouldn't do that.

[camn]

Why are you ignoring the possibility that I actually meant what I said. I did feel that his post at the end of Day 2 was pro-town -..<snark removed>..

Hmmm. I did give you a chance to explain why you let up on APC..... But you told me this:

Re: Neighbour questions-
... Kastuki didn't really say anything to make me think that he was town, but I figured that I could get a better read out of him as a neighbour.

Am I missing something?

Lets just put some of Hacker's recent quotes next to each other so I can stare at them for a minute:

Kastuki didn't really say anything to make me think that he was town,

Katsuki was surprisingly open in the QT

I did feel that his post at the end of Day 2 was pro-town

Maybe you can rephrase, so I can understand better.
I will ask again:
Day 1, you seemed pretty anti-APC. Then, after that, you seemed to really relax your position on him/them.
Why is that? Did they say something to you in the QT to change your mind? Or maybe something in the thread changed your mind?

[camn]

Given the last part of that quote, I can see why you chose to omit it, but I believe that I gave my reasons for the change of mind. You can choose to believe it or not. On the other point, you can ask CES to confirm. Katsuki probably posted as much in the QT as he did in the gamethread.

If you are actually town, which I doubt, you should save the snark and the combativeness and get down to brass tacks.

I still dont understand your change of heart. So 2 questions:

1) I asked you if it was his discussion in the QT that made you back off... you said no, he didnt

say anything

to make you think he was town.. did you mean in the QT ONLY? (I certainly read that as

ANYTHING ANYWHERE

, but correct me if I am wrong.)

2) Are you saying that it was his post in-thread at the end of Day 2 that changed your mind? Is that when it happened? Right now I am as much interested as WHEN as I am in why.

PLease be clear and save your attitude for someone who is more easily bullied

[camn]

I'll go justify my scumread on Camn tomorrow.

Did this ever happen?

Also.. Deadline is approaching!!?
Does anyone dispute my case on Hackerhuck? Other than him? Although his counter argument was a little limp wristed if you ask me?

[camn]

ThAd should vig Furry or MoI.

How is it we can disagree so thoroughly on this?
I see them as both incredibly town.

What are you seeing that I am not?

For vig target? Chesskid. Maybe Thor?
Hmm.

Lets see the flip.. and go from there.

[camn]

For vig target? Chesskid. Maybe Thor?

distance distance distance

During the night phase, you should meditate deeply on your play.
If you are scum, then I guess you are playing ok as far as I am concerned.. because your play is going to get you lynched.

If you are town, you should think about how you can actually be effective. Your play so far has been useless and annoying, and you aren't helping the town AT ALL.

Think about it.

Even if you were right about me (which you aren't) or are right about anything else (which, since your reasoning is unknown, there is no reason to think you are)... your current tack isn't going to convince ANYONE. The only people that would go along with this strategy of yours are scum who want to use you to push a mislynch.

This means the only success you will have is success killing townies. Even the WORST scum could repel your halfhearted, useless attacks, and no sane townie would back your play with no explanations.

Seriously... think about it.

[camn]

I would totally pile on chesskid.... But we are out of time I think.

Deadline nolynches are scummy.
Hackerhuck should die, please.

[camn]

I agree... But when you don't put anything real into your posts, then the rest of the town has no way to get a read on you. Which makes you a liability to the town. ESPECIALLY in endgame.

Re: lynching him... We have 3. We need 5.
Plus, Hacker is probably scum. Chesskid can spend tonight thinking about what he did wrong. Or maybe get vigged. Either is fine with me. So ima go to bed.

[camn]

Re: chess: what would indicate that he was town?

Furtermore, if he WERE, what would indicate that he would do anything except lose the game for us if we hit lylo?

[camn]

Your face is silly

Goofy is just as anti-town as scummy, wouldn't you say?
If someone uses craplogic, that sound like a problem for the town.

And I am not advocating at this point.. I am considering.

[camn]

Yes, I would say.

I think craplogic is craplogic, whether you think it is "scummy" (whatever that means) or not.
I think anti-town play should be met with the lynch. Especially since our vig is dead.
The fact is, chesskid has done nothing to make me think he is town. A point in his favor is that he has done nothing to make me think he is SCUM either. Truthfully, he has simply done NOTHING.

I am willing to lynch him on policy grounds alone. There is a 25% chance he might actually BE scum, but in my view, there is a 0% chance he will help the town win this game. And, since we are ahead, I think we can afford a policy lynch.

ALL THAT SAID

: I am totally willing to persue other options.
Like yourself, Thor. you are next on my list.
The Idea that MagofIllusion is a better lynch than chesskid makes my brain want to explode... you proposing it gets you massive scumpoints in my book. Especially given the WAY you presented it. Let us revisit it:

My immediate gut is that I'd rather lynch MoI or Almaster over chess, I'm pretty sure chess is town.

YOu would rather lynch one of the most pro-town players over the most anti-town player BASED ON GUT??? If you are going to make that kind of claim, I need a case. AGM started it for you. Although I hate that argument.. it is better than the nothing you brought..and he even asked for discussion of the topic. Hmm.

I could do some vote analysis to see if my gut has any water, or I could claim laziness, have MoI yell at me, and wait for him to provide the vote count posts with Hackerscum worked in anyway What to do, what to do...

Here you recognize that you are playing in a suboptimal way... all the while giving yourself an 'out' later on if your accusations don't take hold.
This is very, VERY wishy-washy, and not the way to get anyone lynched.

[camn]

Spoiler: Final Votecounts by Day and Flip

Final Vote Count Day 4

(5)

HackerHuck

: camn, MagnaofIllusion,

ThAdmiral

, chesskid3, Thor665
(2) chesskid3: AlmasterGM, Furry
(1) Furry: Cogito Ergo Sum

Not Voting:

HackerHuck

Final Day 3 Vote Count

(7)

Twomz

: MagnaofIllusion,

LynchMePls

, Thor665, AlmasterGM,

apathyplusCUPCAKES

, camn, Slaxx
(2)

apathyplusCUPCAKES

:

ThAdmiral

, Furry
(1) camn:

HackerHuck

(1) Furry: Cogito Ergo Sum
(1)

HackerHuck

:

Twomz

Not Voting: no one

Final Vote Count of Day 2

(8)

Feysal

:

SpryeX

, Furry,

HackerHuck

, Cogito Ergo Sum,

apathyplusCUPCAKES

, Slaxx, MagnaofIllusion,

Twomz

Not Voting:

ThAdmiral

, AlmasterGM,

LynchMePls, Untrod Tripod

, Thor665,

Feysal

, Nero Cain

Final Vote Count of Day 1

(10)

Square Obscure

: AlmasterGM,

LynchMePlz

,

Untrod Tripod

, Slaxx,

ThAdmiral

, MagnaofIllusion,

HackerHuck

,

Twomz

, Cogito Ergo Sum,

Nikanor

(3)

Untrod Tripod: danakillsu,

Square Obscure

, Thor665
(2) Nero Cain: Furry,

SpyreX

(1)

danakillsu: apathyplusCUPCAKES

(1) MagnaofIllusion: Nero Cain

Not Voting:

Feysal

SO... I put this^^ here for me, really.
NOw I want to dig into the HackerHuck wagon.

I voted him early based on VC analysis.. and MoI joined me. Furry also threw some weight in, but unvoted to try and quicklynch chesskid. (not a terrible idea)
I also pulled for neighbor-claims early, and got them, despite some pushback.... there was some inquiry as to WHY I wanted to know... which I delayed and delayed.. giving Hacker some rope. Some time to chat with his buddies in the QT kind of rope.

Then I delivered (1112, 1115) my analysis...Thad bought my case, Hacker argued a little bit,

THEN HE GAVE UP.

(1121)

The question I am asking my self is this:

What was going on in the scum QT when Hacker gave up?
Did he say "I'm gonna argue my way out of this, buddy... so just hold off on the bussing"
or did he say "Shit. I am fucked. Good luck with the rest of the game"

I think the second one.
And I think his buddy jumped right on the bus.

Furry seemed to pile on.. . but he had a vote on already.
Chesskid flipped from tunnelling me to voting

with

me, implicitly agreeing with my case while calling for my vigging. (1152 and 1153 are also relevant)
Thor drops the hammer.

----

My conclusion?

at least one Scum are in {Furry, Chesskid, THor }

I like

Furry

. I think Furry's play is good. But looking at yesterday alone is slightly scumtastic. Trying to dump the lynch onto chesskid at the last moment? slightly questionable IF CHESS IS TOWN (which is a big IF). We would really need a chessflip to decide that though. As it stands, he is the least likely of the three to be scum, imo.

Chess

I don't like. I think he is a detriment to the town regardless of alignment. I was leaning town on his predecessor IIRC, but as I said earlier, I would support a lynch here. In fact, the more I look at his play yesterday, the more I think he might actually be scum.. not just a bad player.

Thor

... thor could be scum. He didn't >quite< seem to muster enough Hacker-Hate to sound TOTALLY like a buss.. But he is certainly in the running. NOt as scummy as chess yesterday.. but today . . meh.

If I were the only one voting, I would eliminate these three.... in this order: chess/thor/furry.. until I hit scum. Then reevaluate.

[camn]

I forgot about HH being a roleblocker!

Note to self: no actual DIRECTED vig of scum was possible this game. Only directed town-vigs.
Any discussion of directed vigging should be revisited with this in mind....

scum-motivation is fully solidified in re: directing vig kills.

Lets see if I can find any...

[camn]

hmm.

I slept on it.. and its not a hole in one. There could be some town-motivation to it too.
Plus it would only work for scum if it were totally a sure thing. THey didn't bother to block the vig at all anyway.

Which brings me back to the VCA on the Hackerwagon.

does anyone dispute my timeline re: it? You can almost taste when Hacker is defeated in his posts.. he

had

to have mentioned it to his partner, right?

[camn]

I am calling for his lynch actively thinking he is just a bad town player.

Part of it is carryover from another game.
Part of it is a desire to improve play site-wide.
Part of it is fear that he will lose THIS game for us if we find ourselves in Lylo.
Part of it is me knowing I could be wrong in thinking he is town.

[camn]

Chess did whittle down his scumlist to 4 of the remaining 6 players other than himself.

I am still liking Thor or Chess as scum, really. For my previously stated reasons.
Though AGM did give me a little tingle a while back regarding vig hit lists. Maybe it was nothing. I dont know.

i think we have already plucked the low-lying fruit. The last one is going to be tricky.
Lets see what L-1 will bring us, no?

VOTE: CHESSKID

see my previous posts for reasoning

[camn]

Hmm this would probably be the point where I would hammer myself and give up if I were scum.

What about this post is anything other than totally giving up?

[camn]

i.e. anyone who is not Furry CES or me.
because you two are town

This is the read you agree with, furry? THIS?
Goddamn buddying works every time .

Although I would rather counterwagon Thor right now... I am willing to put some weight behind MoI's play... But not till I sober up.
(read: Tomorrow if you are lucky. Otherwise January)

[camn]

also, did i misunderstand or was Almaster's defense that he has been tunneling on this slot for the last 3 days?

NO, you didn't misunderstand me. Your slot is the scummiest by a million billion miles. Nobody else even comes remotely close. It is the correct lynch no matter what game theory angle you look at it with. I will not rest until it burns in a giant fire. And THEN we can look at everything else.

Truer words have rarely been spoken.

[camn]

Actually, given your play... Probably not at all.
There is no reason any thinking person would think you are town based on your play.

Anyone... Scum, town or third party.... Anyone could push your lynch and suffer nothing if you flipped town.
That is the tragedy of your playstyle.

In fact, anyone who defends a play like you when you are town.. They are actually more likely scum or investigative roles... Because role-info is the only sane way to decide your alignment.

Does that make sense?

That's why this playstyle (I call it early-Zwet) is so anti town. .. Which is scummy.

[camn]

Are our hangovers cured yet?

So.. I started a new rotation today.. and it looks like I will only have internets in the evening.. just FYI
That aside....

I see the following options for today:

A) lynch chesskid. He is 25% scum. Not great odds. But he is a terrible townie, so no great loss.
MOre importantly...he could easily lose the game for us if it came down to it.. which is why the scum will never kill him, if he IS town.
Given his playstyle.. he will never get any SCUMMIER... so we would logically never lynch him, regardless of alignment.

Thus, as I reckon it... leaving chesskid alive is a 25% chance of us losing the game AT BES.. and 100% chance at worst.
Wheras lynching him is a scumlynch AT BEST.. and no great loss at worst.

SEEMS LIKE A GOOD IDEA.

OR..

b) Lynch AGM.
I think he is about 40% chance of being scum.
However.. if he IS scum, he is only going to get scummier. I think he will let himself be known sooner or later. So leaving him alive is no great risk.

OR

c) Flip the wagon to Thor.
I think he is about 75% scum. He would be a good lynch..... but has some of the same considerations as above.

PLease discuss.

[camn]

I'm cool with Thor camn MoI or Almaster lynches. >_<

Can you give any reasons for these choices?
Or is it just the typical guesswork that I have come to expect from this recent crop of young players?

[camn]

I don't know how many are left. I suck at balance.

But I am kind of assuming ONE left.

That said, I have certainly seen games that started great, and ended with days of mislynches... And then we found ourselves in Lylo. So I am not ready to call this one for the town yet.
If we had a hole-in-one Obvscum lynch candidate, I would love to lynch them... But I don't see it. Which is why I am all for cutting out liability players. Maybe we get lucky.

[camn]

Good cases are good.

UNVOTE
VOTE: AlmasterGM

L-1 i think.
No quickhammer, please.. there are some things I'd like to know.

Like Thor and Furry's position on this lynch.
Especially Thor's.

[camn]

You think Thor is town?

[camn]

Lets do it.

UNVOTE
VOTE: THOR

[camn]

Oh, I noticed.

I also noticed your faux-disregard of your impending death.
I ALSO ALSO noticed you are skimming and must have missed

THORSCUM CASE PART 1

ALL THAT SAID

: I am totally willing to persue other options.
Like yourself, Thor. you are next on my list.
The Idea that MagofIllusion is a better lynch than chesskid makes my brain want to explode... you proposing it gets you massive scumpoints in my book. Especially given the WAY you presented it. Let us revisit it:

My immediate gut is that I'd rather lynch MoI or Almaster over chess, I'm pretty sure chess is town.

YOu would rather lynch one of the most pro-town players over the most anti-town player BASED ON GUT??? If you are going to make that kind of claim, I need a case. AGM started it for you. Although I hate that argument.. it is better than the nothing you brought..and he even asked for discussion of the topic. Hmm.

I could do some vote analysis to see if my gut has any water, or I could claim laziness, have MoI yell at me, and wait for him to provide the vote count posts with Hackerscum worked in anyway What to do, what to do...

Here you recognize that you are playing in a suboptimal way... all the while giving yourself an 'out' later on if your accusations don't take hold.
This is very, VERY wishy-washy, and not the way to get anyone lynched.

and

THORSCUMCASE PART 2

The question I am asking my self is this:

What was going on in the scum QT when Hacker gave up?
Did he say "I'm gonna argue my way out of this, buddy... so just hold off on the bussing"
or did he say "Shit. I am fucked. Good luck with the rest of the game"

I think the second one.
And I think his buddy jumped right on the bus.

Furry seemed to pile on.. . but he had a vote on already.
Chesskid flipped from tunnelling me to voting

with

me, implicitly agreeing with my case while calling for my vigging. (1152 and 1153 are also relevant)
Thor drops the hammer.

----

My conclusion?

at least one Scum are in {Furry, Chesskid, THor }

I like

Furry

. I think Furry's play is good. But looking at yesterday alone is slightly scumtastic. Trying to dump the lynch onto chesskid at the last moment? slightly questionable IF CHESS IS TOWN (which is a big IF). We would really need a chessflip to decide that though. As it stands, he is the least likely of the three to be scum, imo.

Chess

I don't like. I think he is a detriment to the town regardless of alignment. I was leaning town on his predecessor IIRC, but as I said earlier, I would support a lynch here. In fact, the more I look at his play yesterday, the more I think he might actually be scum.. not just a bad player.

Thor

... thor could be scum. He didn't >quite< seem to muster enough Hacker-Hate to sound TOTALLY like a buss.. But he is certainly in the running. NOt as scummy as chess yesterday.. but today . . meh.

If I were the only one voting, I would eliminate these three.... in this order: chess/thor/furry.. until I hit scum. Then reevaluate.

[camn]

Oh, fun! YOu have resorted to snark, rather than actual defense!

Lets take it slow.
DO you contest my conclusion? This one?
"at least one Scum are in {Furry, Chesskid, THor }"

[camn]

I think there is no discernible difference between chess' play as town or as scum. It is terribly scummy either way.

The sad thing, if he is town., is that if it comes down to Lylo.. he is almost assuredly the lynch over players like Furry, CES, MoI, Myself... so god help the town if one of those is the final scum.

For that reason, I also support an early Chess lynch.. a NON-lylo lynch, that is. If we have to go that far. Which we dont, since Thor is scum.

[camn]

Actually, Thor, you did nothing to effect my case. I totally see the timeline of the HH lynch as I laid it out. Your so-called arguments addressed it not at all.

I get a townread from Fuzzy.. which leaves chess or you as scum. Maybe both.
Chess is willing to go along with you under the assumption that he is next if you flip town. I am also ok with that.

Could someone else be scum? Sure. Maybe. Who Knows. But you will nag in my mind until I see your flip. So I intend to see it. THEN I move my suspicions on to someone else.

[camn]

I agree. Either lynch would be fine with me...but where were you back when I was working on a chess-lynch?
Lets see... it was.. page 49-51.

Well.. at the top of 49 you were DEFENDING chess, and attacking me... while discussing setup.
Page 50...shooting down my chess case some MORE, and discussing setup...
Oh! Post 1243.. you could have actually HAMMERED chesskid... but you fool around discussing MoI's claim?

then you are VLA until we run you up.

You seem to have changed your tune on chess now.
I still support his lynch. Get another vote and I will hammer in the AM. But I don't have internets during the day... so it has to be tonight.

[camn]

Grrrr.

I am frustrated.

I will read harder this weekend. Maybe I will find the scum.
Wish chess would've gotten vigged, back when we had one

[camn]

Interesting. Very interesting.

[camn]

Yay!
I knew I could count on you Furry!

In other news.. good game, Magna. You guys made it pretty far for getting slammed so hard so early. Should have killed Furry, though

[camn]

Usually the whole scumteam should agree to link the QT.

If anyone has any objections, they would have to speak up this time!