Zachtown in the mountains (Game over TOWN WINS!)

[Percy]

Hello all!

[Percy]

ITT: Scum explain how happy they are that they're not scum.

[Percy]

ITT: Scum explain how happy they are that they're not scum.

How much you willing to stake? (For my self, no nothing of the copycat)

I've got a few of these lying around:

I'll give you

TWO

. Counteroffer?

[Percy]

IAM, if Benmage's plan was scummy, why aren't you voting him?

Vote: Sotty7

[Percy]

Sotty's question struck me as deliberately aggrevating. It boiled down to "You said all this

serious

stuff about Benmage, why didn't you

serious

vote?". Seems like a trap for IAI - like either he's disingenuous or he's timid.

I thought IAI responded strongly, whilst Benmage took the bait to go all attack dog "the RVS is officially OVER, BITCHES, I am THROWING DOWN".

(Also, Benmage said he

forgot

that the flips weren't instantaneous, but it sure looks to me like he read the OP and didn't read the Rules post.)

I still hadn't got a good read on Benmage yet, but something about Sotty's comment just bothered me. I thought it warranted a semi-serious vote.

Now RedCoyote kinda got my vibe, but he missed a crucial part - that IAI had actually called the plan "scummy". He appears to have thought about what I was saying, rather than just asking me to explain myself straight away...

Reading my post alone could mean that RC didn't go back and check all the facts, and since it's so easy to refute I think it's a poor tell.

The way he backed down when Oso called him on it is more suspicious, imo. It was playing friendly with Oso and Locke Lamora while excusing himself

and

turning on the new guy. Feels like a tactical retreat, and that is kinda scummy.

Im a bit suprised it almost a 4:1 ratio to the scum, but it should be about that much.

You're surprised, but it should be about 4:1? Huh?

(It's not 4:1, it's 61:39, which is about 1.56:1.)

(( Also, a two man scumteam in a 12 person mini has ~65% chance of victory

mathematically

, but I don't think it's anything like that in practice. I'd say this setup favours town, frankly.))

I'm happy with my vote for now.

[Percy]

Percy says:

Sotty's question struck me as deliberately aggrevating. It boiled down to "You said all this serious stuff about Benmage, why didn't you serious vote?".

Seems like a trap for IAI

- like either he's

disingenuous or he's timid

.

In the post right after, Sotty says:

It looked like you were trying to dirty benmage for what he said in pregame and if you legitimately thought what he did was scummy you should have voted. Instead you threw out a random vote,

it feels disingenuous

.

Right out of my mouth, hilarious.

The trap is that you set up a fight, and the one that backs down first is mislynch potential. Their interaction with their victorious opponent is then more than enough content for you to spin into something scummy. It's a great way for scum to start the day!

@Sotty7

: IAI was sensible in his response. He said that he didn't want to serious vote right away, but that Benmage was worth watching. What's wrong with that?

I saw Oso's point in 57, even though I didn't agree to the same extent. There's something off about RedCoyote. The facts he put together were worth stating. Oso was aggressive (which could make it a playstyle thing). IAI voting Oso without stating reasons is weird, especially since he'd talked about other stuff. Elmo at least elaborated later, his characterisation of Oso's post as "grandiose" was spot on, but I'd like to hear from Oso again.

Self-vote, IAI? Oh fucking what the fuck.

Oh my God. I hate irritating "self-sacrificing" Vanilla Townies who think they're being

soooo

selfless by handing the scum a free mislynch on a silver platter.

Quoted for truth. Stop whining and get back in the game.

This is why I hate this situation; the degree of yelling at each other and just plain not listening means that pretty soon, people will get the idea that exactly one of Benmage or IAI must be scum into their heads.

Yeah, and this is why Sotty is scum. When IAI is no longer a candidate for a mislynch (because he exploded like a VI-bomb), Sotty jumps onto the next biggest wagon.

I'm not against the Nikanor wagon though, his one post was pretty crappy.

Vote: still awesome.

[Percy]

Percy, do you genuinely believe that Benmage and RedCoyote are more likely to be scum because they stated loudly in the thread that they weren't scum? Or were you joking? Because you never follow up on that line of questioning at at all. It seems like a bit of an easy dig.

Oh it was. It bothered me when Benmage said it, because it's just WIFOM garbage. Then when RC said "me too" I was annoyed, and snapped, and joked at the same time - with wit!
Of course it was too early to actually start deciding alignments, and I didn't think town would gain anything with me overthinking and overanalysing the absolutely null exchange.
Am I obligated to follow up on my reads directly? And if it was an "easy dig", is it any easier than saying "I'm so sad I'm not scum, SO SAD. SRSLY guys SO SAD, **SO SAD**, I'm town and SO SO SAD"?

Oh! And something I wanted to ask Percy about:

(Also, Benmage said he forgot that the flips weren't instantaneous, but it sure looks to me like he read the OP and didn't read the Rules post.)

So what do you think the scum motivation of this would be?

It's a lie. Scum lie. Scum lie to make themselves sound better. But sometimes people lie to make themselves sound better, even when they're not scum, because they want to cover for their mistakes. Maybe it's not a lie, maybe he genuinely read the rules post and the OP and still didn't get the instantaneous flips thing, and then proceeded to forget about it and kick up a big fuss.
But I think it's a lie, and it's worth noting.

[Percy]

Look, I'm saying you have a fair argument against Oso. I could easily see Oso trying to make a big stink over something minor in anticipation of me having to admit missing a crucial piece of information. On the same token, Oso had a point to call me out, and he has since tapered down his sense of grandiosity, as you labeled it.

This is a very reasonable post, but something still bothers me. It's the "AND WE NEVER SPOKE OF IT AGAIN" vibe. His retreat was scummy, imo, as I pointed out earlier. Hmmmmmm.....

I'm this close to saying that you sould lighten up a bit. This close.

I'm also not so happy with the jason vote. What about jason's behaviour is scummy?

kingdavid and Furcolow didn't use it as an excuse to get defensive and lose their cool. jason clearly overreacted.

Jason thought (or so he says) there was a day cop claiming a guilty on him. I'd be defensive and react strongly too...

And what is your goal behind claiming this early, when you're not even at L-1?

This is odd. If he really was a say cop and got a guilty, then of course he should claim. That's a cop's job.

uhm... so when kingdavid says he forgot it means nothing, but when jason says he forgot it's a scumtell? Seriously?

Beat me to the punch.

I also took a very clear stance on the “fight” so it wasn't like I was fanning the flames or sitting on the fence.

Sure you did, eventually. I'd say fanning the flames is a good description, actually.

Why wait to place a serious vote? Why wait to place a semi serious vote? Acutally, as I type this I am having flash backs of Mini 775 where you spend a big portion of day one arguing about the need for an RVS. Do you still hold these beliefs?

Yes. I think the RVS is important and too often truncated. I usually keep it to myself these days, because I think getting into an argument about it every game I'm in is distracting and doesn't help anybody.

(Also that game still makes me cry when I think about it.)

Re: Nik's vote on Jason,

I thought it was a RVS vote. He is now repping it as serious without any real transition.

This. Jason's stumbling is now providing some justification, but I fail to understand how jason's reaction is scummy, rather than just a reaction from someone who is busy and didn't read the setup. Just like Benmage who didn't know about the instaflips.

RedCoyote's...eh. It's not so much that his arguments themselves are bad, but that he just comes across as oily and insincere and ingratiating in everything he says.

I like this read.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. I still have a powerful scumread on Sotty, but I'm more excited about this right now:

Unvote, Vote: RedCoyote

.

IGMEOY: Sotty

.

Scumreads

RedCoyote
Sotty7
Dry-fit
imkingdavid

Unsure

Nikanor
Furcolow
Benmage
Mina

Townreads

mongoose
jasonT1981
Elmo
Oso
I Am Innocent
KaleiÐoscøpe
Locke Lamora

[Percy]

EBWOP: I said:

Jason's stumbling is now providing some justification, but I fail to understand how jason's reaction is scummy, rather than just a reaction from someone who is busy and didn't read the setup. Just like Benmage who didn't know about the instaflips.

This is poorly phrased. I do not think that Benmage not knowing about the instaflips is a tell either way, but I do think that his "forgetting" line was an unnecessary lie.

@Furcolow

: Of course all four can't be scum, but they're the ones hitting my radar. As for Dry-Fit, I don't like his votes on Oso or on Jason, but I like my wagons better.

[Percy]

My vote has never been about jason's reaction. I said that in my last post. This just goes to show how much attention you are paying to what I am saying.
Why do you think that jason is town?

You asked that second question twice. Why are you recruiting for this wagon so hard?

I had a gut read of him, and I thought the only legitimate points made against him were regarding his reaction to your claim gambit. For example, when he said:

flat out lie. He is not a day cop.. If he was, he would know

my proper role

and not that I am mafia.

That sounds like scum who haven't figured out their fakeclaim. Which is why I said the reaction was providing justification.

Hey Pecry, I wish I was scum so I didn't have to read every word. Is it nice skimming?

Was this solely on the back of Nikanor's reaction? I haven't skimmed at all this game, nice try though.

Interesting....I read what was in the sign-up thread. And didn't re-read what was in this thread. Some time passed, and the detail of instant flips slipped my mind. My last game with multiple lynches waited to the end of the day for flips. Although you honestly believing it a lie...is something i'll note.

So you're saying you read the rules the first time around carefully enough to notice the instant flips (because the doublelynch mechanics are shiny and new and it's the first question that came to my mind), and since forgot? It made much more sense when you were saying it was just a mistake. But now you've said you forgot, and this story shows up when I call you on it. Not buying it.

No dumbass. I quote it to show that you misread the game, Or basically that you forgot about a key element of the game. Notice how I continuously call it to Percy's attention. Because he called out my forgetfulness as a lie. Which it clearly wasn't. Despite you somehow forgetting this game to be mountainous isn't even my point.

Except it's actually completely different. Jason says he misread the game. It's quite a bad misreading. Scummy? I don't think so. But he hasn't now, several posts into clearing up this misunderstanding, said he "forgot".
Your hysterical defence is noted.

Jason thought (or so he says) there was a day cop claiming a guilty on him. I'd be defensive and react strongly too...

Then we clearly have different approaches to the game. Since your side is seemingly winning out, it's probably good that your reaction is in line with the majority.

My side? What side is that, exactly?

Also, of course a daycop with a guilty should claim. What if (s)he's the first NK? Sure there's an argument for waiting for a little while to observe them, but I don't see why it's a bad idea.
And anyway, aren't you saying that Jason is the bad guy here? He's the one that said it was scummy to claim so early, iirc.

The problem is him trying to clarify his statements after the fact with stuff like, "Okay he admits to lying but he doesn't even have a case!"

OK, I'll play along. How is this different to Benmage vs. IAI? Especially with the "forgot" comment.

What happened to the Nikanor wagon?

I liked this, regarding Nik vs. jason:

Doesn't look like real scum hunting, more taking advantage of a players scummish play style.

Locke moved onto Dry-Fit before you explained your vote. Before that it was just "something different". So why ask us where it went? It's your wagon.

OK, I'm up to 221 and I have to go. Be back later.

[Percy]

redcoyote: I caught his claim but it was a joke, since he had admitted to lying a few posts later. All of that happened while I was asleep iirc. I didn't think too much of it until the whole Jason thin evolved which was a rather stupid case. He made a mistake. I can see why he kept the vote on after he admitted to joking. After finding out is was a vanilla game he took it off. Unvoting was a possibility, but he had a case and maybe a bit of regret in his vote. I excuse that.

I find it interesting that no-one else pointed out that mongoose is referring to Nikanor, though he says RedCoyote. And later he says:

On the other hand, redcoyote's posts aren't really that great. There is alot of irrelevant and silly stuff, along with some questionable points (like his votes on sotty and nikanor, I didn't quite catch the reason for those).

According to the (completely misapplied) Bemmage theory, this is some scummy skimming.

@mongoose

: What do you make of the Dry-fit case?

@Percy: Why do you have a town read on Locke, Kaleidoscope, and Jason?

Locke - Succinct and considered townie posts.
KaleiÐoscøpe - I liked it when he pointed this out.
Still,

@KaleiÐoscøpe

: Why do you still like the RC wagon?
Jason - I think his mistake points to town in a paradoxical way, like IAI self-voting. I also thought this reaction was town, seems to me like scum would be more hesitant in that situation to just jump in like that.

---

I don't even know what to think of this big pile of what the fuck.

Humans....making errors? Like forgetting things??? Impossible. String me and mongoose up right now! LAL! Right Percy!!! Why aren’t you voting me anyways? You think lying is acceptable? That’s messed up.

Except it's actually completely different.

Jason

mongoose says he misread

the game

a different game. It

's

might have been quite a bad misreading. Scummy? I don't think so. But he hasn't now, several posts into clearing up this misunderstanding, said he "forgot".
Your hysterical defence is again noted.

You continue to misrepresent my points. I don't even know why you voted me and called me "100% scum". That's just absurd, and I think you know that.
I think you lied. I think you've exploded since being caught. I haven't voted you because I've had trouble locating the scum motivation - lying when you don't have to is a pretty scummy thing to do, but it could (have been) just be an overdefensive playstyle thing.

3. I Am Innocent –town

I don't know why IAI is a townread for you, especially given how you started this day out. Also your scum-by-wiki version of scumhunting surely means IAI is scum with that self-voting business, only scum self vote right?

Things are not adding up for me with Bemmage at all. I'm liking the Dry-fit wagon less because of him.

Unvote, Vote: Bemmage

. Will re-vote RC at deadline if it comes to that.

[Percy]

And I'm getting a bit tired of the players doing the "OMG, HE CALLED ME SCUM. I'M TOWN SO HE MUST BE SCUM!". It's really a bad way of both townie ignorance or bad scum bussing.

Is this referring to me? I can't see who else it could refer to. Oversimplifying my case, implying OMGUS, ignorance or bussing, good job.

You switched of RC. Why were you on him in the first place? I asked you in my last post why you were voting RC, because your vote started random and became not-random, as far as I can tell. Now you've switched to Dry-fit, dropping the RC wagon from three to two, and the only reason you give is because you "want to see a lynch".

How about I imply that you're not giving any arguments, are opportunistically wagon-hopping, and are casting aspersions on cases you know nothing about?

Townread: annihilated.

[Percy]

Thanks for proving my point.

And what would that be, exactly? That whoever speaks second is wrong and probably scum?

Oh and I don't know if I mentioned this, but:
1. What did you like about the RC wagon?
2. Why is Dry-fit the superior choice for today?

[Percy]

To add to the woes of zach,

I'm LA this week

. I only have very poor phone internet, as I'm in rural Australia and they only just got color television here. Not really, but close.

Thanks for the lecture on how to play, kaleidoscope. I disagree with you on almost every point on how my play is bad, and the proof is in the pudding - because of my prompting, you posted more than you have this entire game, and explained your votes. You read town to me still.

I haven't had a chance to read the RC or Dry-fit wagons close enough to commit. Still liking my Bemmmage vote, and if anyone is guilty of OMGUS, it's him. Sure I voted second, but his vote was a confused explosion of scummy goodness in response to my calling out his lie.

[Percy]

Oh, and I'll be reading and possibly revoting for a lynching wagon either tomorrow or Thursday.

[Percy]

Still posting from phone, so this will likely be very concise. Happy to elaborate on Saturday when I get home.

Hi to the replacements, thanks for joining us! And booo for three people replacing out on D1...

RC299 - his jason read seems genuine. I liked his call on Oso and on Benmage.
LL309 - goodposting re: jason.
Mina313 - Town is allowed five mislynches, not six.
RC321 - I like both the case and vote on Fur. The OMGUS afterwards was hilarious. Starting to think that RC just needed warming up, but still have eyes on him.
Fur325 - Why do you play mafia if you think the town is better off without you, even as town?
Fur328 - your read on RC is completely backwards. Scum would want to capitalise Dry-fit's mislynch potential if he's town to RC's scum imo, and your read on Dry-fit is changing a lot.
Benmage 336 - your misunderstanding of my case is wilful, and your misrepresentation constant. I think I'm going to rename you Sean Hannity. You began with "I didn't realise, I made a mistake", and after you got heat for it and I asked you about it, it became "I forgot". The forgetting itself isn't the issue, it's changing your story under pressure. Now you're going all out against me, but I'm not backing down. Calling my vote OMGUS is scumhunting by wiki, because you're describing my behaviour superficially and using buzzwords that don't apply.
BSpice343 - I voted Sotty because she appeared to be fanning the flames, "you two should fight harder" style. Also, I agree with jason that your "vote on town" should be considered as a legitimate slip. You ignored this in your latest post, also.

I don't think a Hannity lynch is going to happen today. Nowhere near sold on Dry-fit case. Baby Spice needs exploring, and that makes me think twice about my Hannity case. Right now the player who seems the most scummy is Furcolow, and if I'm wrong then I think we'll still be better for it.

Unvote, Vote: Furcolow

[Percy]

@Furc, this is a smallish game with no night phase. There is only so much I am willing to let slide on "I am not good at this gamek. Antitown and scummy are not the same thing, but my scumread of you is bigger than my scumread of Dry-fit, and your reads change so much that your activity is a hindrance rather than a boon to the town.

Why should Dry-fit be lynched? Last I read, your vote was for self preservation only.

[Percy]

Well that was unexpected. I'd say that Havingfitz and Locke Lamora are almost certainly town, due to their early wagonning of Dry-fit.

My initial read of Dry-fit was scummy, but I was seeing scum in the way the wagon was developing, and I didn't think there was enough for a lynch. I was wrong.

first off, i respect percy a lot, so having him insult me here is something i want to back away from.

AtE, I'm not insulting you. You say "I'm bad at this game that is why it looks scummy" when someone points out something anti-town you've done, and I think it's a terrible defence. I don't know how you'd play differently as scum.

You're insisting that this play of yours is your town meta. Give me three games where you can demonstrate this, and three games where you're scum and don't demonstrate this tell. If you can't, then I have no reason to believe you.

vote Percy

so now that I'm confirmed town Lets nail another scum.

It's a fact that you were third on the Dry-fit wagon, and you gave it a big push.
...
It does buy you a lot of town points, doesn't it. Fuck, I was so sure I was on to something with you.

Hmmmm. I'm going to leave off my case for the moment. But I'm not considering you confirmed, and I'll still be keeping a close eye on you.

Can you say smoking gun?

I knew that scumlist felt very strange to me. I even mentioned it before Dry-fit was lynched. Juxtaposing these two posts, one can clearly see that Percy is caught lying at worst or fabricating posts at best. His list was completely out of the blue to begin with, but there was no need for him to call both me and Dry-fit as persons of interest on his scumlist if he "hadn't had a chance to read our wagons close enough". Percy will likely argue that his list was based on gut reads or that he was more focused on Benmage, but the truth is that Percy talked with me a great deal. He said that he though Locke and Kscope were both very town looking (and the only things these two players had effectively done was criticize me and Dry-fit).

Smoking gun? Please. Sure it was inconsistent of me to go from "I have a scumread of Dry-fit" to "I haven't digested the case and I'm going to push another wagon", but it felt right at the time, and I didn't have time to explain myself in full. I thought the initial case against Dry-fit was worth pushing, but I thought that it didn't develop enough for me to want to lynch him. An early scumtell worth exploring does not a lynching case make, effectively. I said I hadn't read the wagon close enough to commit, and I meant it.

You also pushed the Furc pretty hard at the end of the day, too. This was your Furcolow vote-post:

The jason wagon has become too controversial to continue. If you aren't convinced by now, you probably won't be.

This doesn't change the fact that an alternative to the Dry-fit wagon, regardless how you feel about Dry-fit, is beneficial to the long-term game

. Furcolow is a great alternative. He's arguably the most opportunistic player here (arguably because he's competing with Benmage for the title), is throwing up senseless, unexplained scum lists and positions that contradict one another, and is, in general, manufacturing activity to look as though he's paying closer attention than he actually is (by this I mean he's missing obvious things and shrugging them off, pretending like it's no big deal).

The bolded is possibly bussing. You're pushing an alternative wagon but still saying you think the Dry-fit wagon is "good to have around", which means your read was similar to mine - or at least, that's how I'd interpret it if I was assuming you're telling the truth. Dry-fit is scummy, but was not lynchworthy at that point, right?

In regards to myself, I'm a very realistic person, and I'm not in a good position. I put myself in this position by being too headstrong on jason and not open enough to what was going on around me. I'm an acceptable lynch, frankly, and I can't really blame the town if I'm chosen here. I created this post to make it up to y'all for my lack of objectivity in the middle of this game. All that I ask is, if you do lynch me, to go back and comb through this post. These are honest assessments from an honest, dead townie. If you don't lynch me, then I strongly recommend that we go after Percy, Sotty, or Fur, in that order.

Vote: Percy

Goddamn, you sound town here. I have read a lot of about-to-be-lynched kind of posts, and this one sounds genuine, and in every game where I've had this feeling, I've been right.

Fuck. Fuck!

With my Hannity read blown, and my RedCoyote read blown, I'm reeling and need to re-read.

We lynch either Red or Percy today.

Any other lynch proposals are scummy and ignorant

This worries me. This is what scum who bus their partners say.

Fuuuuck.

Based on nothing more than the slip that has been pointed out before, I'm going to

Vote: Baby Spice

. For those that missed it, here it is again:

Hmm, Jason's #98. Blatant buddy on Sotty and

a vote on town

that includes buddying as a reason.

Note the bold! Vote on TOWN.... now how is BS so sure eh?

I really like this slip for BS-scum. I'm going to re-read and figure out whether my vote should stay, but that's where I want to go right now.

I don't think RedCoyote should be the lynch, despite how it might look good superficially. I've got to unpack and I'll be back on later tonight.

[Percy]

I like my vote. I can't understand how Hannity can be scum right now, because his push against Dry-fit looks town. So the case she's putting forward makes no sense. mongoose's attitude towards Dry-fit isn't that great either. Plus there's the slip, and I think that pushes Baby Spice into the "want to lynch" category more than anyone else.

I look forward to Hannity's case. I sure hope it's more than:
1) He was mean to me WAAAAAAAH! and
2) He was inconsistent wrt Dry-fit!

...because whilst I am backing down from my case against Hannity, it's not because I don't think my previous point doesn't have merit. I think he lied to make himself look better, and his ego is too big to let this go. But he can cry all he likes and still be town, and the Dry-fit case makes him look town. And as for my inconsistency, I've already explained why I feel the way I do and why I did the things I did wrt Dry-fit.

I think jason, havingfitz, Locke Lamora and Benmage are probtown, along with RC. I think IAI is town for reasons I said earlier. I had a townread of KScope, but no more, he's solidly null. I still think Furcolow is scummy, but I think Baby Spice is worse.

[Percy]

OK well I'm not scum, so this is very annoying.

jason, you're declaring that I've been contradicting my reads on you, but I did say that your reaction was providing justification, and clarified that. I never thought you were scum, and didn't say you were scum. You have to admit that "my proper role" sounds a bit dodgy, but I have always maintained my read on you.
I asked Furcolow why he wanted Dry-fit lynched, because he appeared scum to me and was jumping on and off the Dry-fit wagon. He said he was voting for Dry-fit because there was a wagon building on him, and I asked for clarification.

I can see where you're getting this Percy-is-scum narrative from, and I did make a very wrong call on Dry-fit. If I'm being honest with myself, I wouldn't have lynched Dry-fit today, so my bad. If I get lynched for it, so be it; having one scum down is fine for D1.

But, I'm not scum, so please reconsider.
I do however think the following players are town:

jasonT1981 - for so many reasons, I've put them in my posts, but being wagonned by Dry-fit and his interactions in general read very town to me.
havingfitz - Oso's replacement, and Oso looks unlikely to be a Dry-fit buddy.
Locke Lamora - similar reasons as havingfitz.
Hannity - He really pushed the Dry-fit wagon. Unless Hannity decided to literally sacrifice his partner for towncred, I find it unlikely that he would be scum.
I Am Innocent - his meltdown still looks town to me.
Elmo - I think Elmo is town, but it's just a surface reading. I can't think of any particularly telling towntells I've seen of his, but I'll put him in the town column for now.

Nikanor and Mina I'm still unsure of.

But as for my scumreads, Baby Spice is still my best read. I think her slip may be legitimate and her posts have been pretty scummy ever since she replaced in.
KScope is bothering me for a few reasons, but I don't know how much it is playstyle.
If I'm being honest, it's the same sort of muddy "is this playstyle" kind of read I have on Furcolow. He should be lynched at some point, though, and I'd like for someone else to pressure him to back up his meta arguments with links to completed games.
Lrdwhyt (kingdavid's replacement) is also worth a look in. kingdavid's reaction to Nik's claim has my ears prick up (spoiler: he buys it), and when Lrdwhyt replaces in he goes after jason quite hard and doesn't commit either way to Dry-fit. I think there may very well be scum here.
RedCoyote... look, I can't make up my mind, and his latest post spun me about. It doesn't look like I'll have a chance to develop my read any further, but he bears watching, as does Sotty7. Sotty7 is one of the absolute best players on this site that I've had the (mis)fortune to play with, so keep an eye on her, folks!

If I had to name the two remaining scum, I'd say they would be Baby Spice and Lrdwhyt, but I'm much more confident with the first name.

And if I do get lynched, premature "thanks zach, go town!"

[Percy]

I do not understand Lrdwhyt's stance on I Am Innocent. Also,

Here are my thoughts on a few people. Not much, and it only includes the first 10 pages or so because I got sort of tired of taking notes, but oh well.

You also said, before:

Alright. I finally finished reading the thread..

This was on page 14.

So I don't understand why the analysis you went with in the last post focused on the first 10 pages, if you already had enough of an understanding of Dry-fit to say "I am considering voting Dry-fit but I want see him post more first". And you said you had finished reading up to page 14...?

Let's just say I'm looking forward to your next post

---

@FURCOLOW

You're insisting that this play of yours is your town meta. Give me three games where you can demonstrate this, and three games where you're scum and don't demonstrate this tell. If you can't, then I have no reason to believe you.

[Percy]

Let's lynch either Percy or Redcoyote before thursday, so we don't waste this time.

Lynching me is a waste of time. I'm pretty sure lynching Red is a waste of time, also. Are you saying that one of us

has

to be scum, that both of us are scum, or what?

Still,

The fact DF had a chance to hop on the RC wagon and deflect momentum off of his own wagon strikes me as suspicious towards RC (who never put a vote on DF).

This is a good point, but another part of me thinks it's unlikely that the two biggest wagons from D1 were both on scum...
I like his Sotty read, still making my mind up about her.

Hey Sotty, fancy joining me on the Baby Spice wagon? Is your read on Baby Spice less of a "compromise" than Red?

Oh, and after 195-197, Percy continues to mention Dry Fit in his next five posts. Little obsessive about that wagon, don't ya think?

Er, it was the lynching wagon. Of course I was talking about it.

"Locke moved onto Dry-Fit before you explained your vote. Before that it was just "something different". So why ask us where it went? It's your wagon."

Lern2context, this was in reply to Sotty7 who asked:

What happened to the Nikanor wagon?

Locke was first on the Nikanor wagon.

What is your point, exactly? You just grabbed any time I mentioned Dry-fit and presented it as a fait accompli. Like when you quoted:

"Why should Dry-fit be lynched?"

This was directed at Furcolow, who has a higher chance of being Dry-fit's scumbuddy in my opinion, given his on-again, off-again, reasons-be-damned relationship with the Red wagon. I wanted him to give me his reasons. Why is this a bad thing?

When I said "I haven't had a chance to read the RC or Dry-fit wagons close enough to commit", I meant it. I had conflicting reads that I documented throughout the day, and I was very limited in my access at the time. I did come out strongly against the Dry-fit wagon, and I regret it, but I'm not scum.

Earlier in the day I had a townread of mongoose, largely gut-based. But there was some weirdness that I pointed out here. And while everyone is piling on me, how about this quote from mongoose:

I dont see anything wrong with dryfit to be honest. I think everything he has said can be justified. On the other hand, redcoyote's posts aren't really that great. There is alot of irrelevant and silly stuff, along with some questionable points (like his votes on sotty and nikanor, I didn't quite catch the reason for those). However there has been alot of stuff I think is townie behavior as well. While I think that the judgment of older, better players than me shouldn't be disregarded, i still think that the case on furcolow is stronger, so I keep my vote there

Add in Baby Spice's slip, her strange Benmage case post-flip (and pre-flip, tbh) and her present lurking through Phase 2, and I think we've got a great candidate for Dry-fit's partner.

[Percy]

EBWOP:

PS - My vote stays unless we are headed for a no lynch.

Why on earth would you think No Lynch is a possibility? This is very strange hedging.

[Percy]

I think we should be lynching someone off the wagon... I'm not really motivated to find out when no-one's looking to change my mind, either.

*waves*

[Percy]

Also, that attitude is so anti-town it hurts my brain.

[Percy]

Also also,

Like, no-one has brought up Mina or Nikanor yet, and I don't know why.

This is not even true. Sotty mentioned her case against Nikanor at the top of this very page... Sure it doesn't mention his potential connections to Dry-fit, but there's a little meat to this case.

@Sotty

: Do you think Nikanor is more or less likely to be scum, given Dry-fit's flip? Or is he independently scummy?

In my estimation, it makes him a smidgeon less likely. I find it less plausible that Nikanor and Dry-fit double-teamed Jason so clumsily, and more likely that Dry-fit was looking to exploit the situation town-Nikanor created. It's definitely well within the margin of error, especially considering that Nikanor never said a single solitary word about Dry-fit. But then again I like anyone voting Baby Spice... Nikanor ends up being null, leaning town for me.

[Percy]

Yeah, well, I'm fighting for my life here, and you cbf looking at alternatives - you're just going to complain that no-one else is looking!

[Percy]

@Mod: I voted Baby Spice here.

I've had time to read, but it's too late for me to brain writing a post. My vote is staying where it is, and I'll put a post together tomorrow.

[Percy]

Well looks like I'm going to be the lynch for today. I'm still not scum, and I am mentally visualising Hannity's face when he sees my flip, and anticipating his backpedalling tomorrow. Or maybe he'll be all "I ALWAYS LYNCH SCUM I AM AWESOME HHHHNNNNNGGGG" or whatever.

I've been caught up in my job, so I can't think straight right now. But I sincerely encourage you guys to look over what I said if you lynch me before I get a chance to post tomorrow morning. In particular, Hannity has been defending Baby Spice simply because he's so confident in his scumread on me, but I hope the case is revisited tomorrow after I'm gone.

Need sleep. Back soon. If you don't lynch me in 24 hours, I will deliver more content in those 24 hours. There's also still enough time to lynch someone else, and those acting like my lynch is a foregone conclusion should be looked at tomorrow.

[Percy]

And I just can't help myself, but:

I'm not good with orders, sorry.

Sure you are! Just not when they come from Mina, amirite?

KScope deserves a good look-in, even though he was on the DF lynching wagon (only because he wanted a lynch rather than a no lynch, mind you).

srsly, look at page 2 of his ISO, it's hilariously lazy.

[Percy]

On Dry-fit: My read was wrong. What else can I say? I laid out my reasons as clearly as I could, and I've answered the questions you've put to me. The KScope school of thought is a waste of time. RC wasn't scum, and if you think that makes me more likely scum, then your thinking is so, so backwards.

As it stands, I think the case on me is lazy and simplistic. It ignores both the other players who weren't on the Dry-fit wagon, and ignores the potential for bussing. Look elsewhere.

I liked Mina's reads in this post.

You realise that I'm actually voting for the person with the most votes who isn't you, right?

That wasn't the point, and you know it.
I reeeeeally liked RedCoyote's analysis of Sotty's Nikanor/Dry-fit interaction, so much so I'm going to quote all of it:

The bigger point is still that, like Percy, you throw Dry-fit in your post with as little involvement as possible. It's an out for you. It's a way for you to say, "surely I can't be scum, look at how quickly I was suspicious of Dry-fit". In reality, you didn't commit to the case, you, instead, committed to Nikanor. It's my opinion that Dry-fit's partners, not looking to outright stonewall this wagon, must've tried to dismantle it using subtly. There's nothing quite as subtle in this regard than acknowledging the Dry-fit wagon as great and then throwing everything you got at a player like Nikanor, who, as best as I can tell, is playing like typical Nikanor.

So Nikanor is tunnelling on jason with arguments that you don't consider to be very valid. I mean, come on, Sotty. Give me any game in the history of this website and you're bound to see at least one example of that. I just think it's a bit elementary for a case. Further, I think it's worse that you're still trying to rally others to the cause after Dry-fit's flip. It's too much of a shot in the dark. There are few connections between Nikanor and Dry-fit and the town's number one asset at this point is unquestionably playing off that flip. Further again, the fact that no one else has shown major interest in Nikanor at least for the time being should clue you in that it would probably be best to table the idea today.

I know it implicates me as well, but this analysis makes a lot of sense to me.

Easy vote on Furc-VI yesterday. Easy vote on obv-VI BS today. Trying to be very non-confrontational aye Percy.
...
BS is an easy mislynch.

*facepalm*
I disagree with both your reads and your conclusion.

This post of Elmo's gives me townvibes.

I like Nikanor's final thoughts:

Anyway, my final thoughts:
Sotty and Baby Spice are scum. Lynch one of those two today.
Locke, Elmo and Mina are town. Don't lynch them ever.
I think that RC is probably town, and I get gut town vibes from Percy.
I am kind of iffy on jason, but his reaction to the Dry-Fit lynch did look pretty legit.

But boooo on replacing out.

Carry on peeps. And remember, Vote for IAI (for best new player) in 2010!!!

Self campaigning FTL.

QFT, also self-voting = no votes from me.

Mafia eats my soul.

Also QFT.

I'm only 100% right when I'm 100% right. Show me otherwise.

Aaaaand this is why you're Hannity. Your opinions are as absurd as they are wrong. And it's up to you to prove you're right, not up to us to prove you're wrong. Your continued insistence throughout D1P2 that the Baby Spice wagon was not going to happen and was on a VI was insane.

Let's play hypotheticals. If Baby Spice actually is scum, should everyone then lynch you after a flip?

I don't think Percy is scummier then Redcoyote, but I want a second lynch today, and Percy has the biggest wagon. If either dies tomorrow, I will campaign for the other tomorrow.

Opportunism here is strong. You jumped on the Dry-fit wagon just to have a lynch. You did the same with RC. If you follow up today with a strong push against me and get me lynched:
(a) If you're scum, then bravo, sir.
(b) If you're town, then YOU FAIL SO HARD OMG
Thor pointed this out:

Waiting for a dry-fit defense before my vote changes. Def tempted to vote him though

Your hesitation is worse than anything anyone has said about me.

Well.

Unvote vote No lynch

Voting for no lynch, Hannity? Really? This is such a "pick up my ball and go home" moment, I lol'd.

ugh... c'mon town... are we seriously going to stall this?

Unvote Vote: Redcoyote

Why did you change your vote to RC at this point? I don't understand. You had said before that you were voting me only because of the size of the wagon. Moving your vote at this point made RC the bigger wagon by one vote because you moved from me. So, plz2explain?

By the way, whatever happened to Locke Lamora? He hasn't posted all week.

I would also like to hear more from LL.

You didnt see the mod message confirming me?

I'm definitely ignoring all of shotty's posts as I read. I see no reason to try to track town/scum reads as mercurial as that.

shotty?

Town:

jasonT1981
I Am Innocent (reluctantly...)
Hannity
Elmo

Unsure:

Thor665
Locke Lamora
Furcolow
Mina
KaleiÐoscøpe

Scummy:

Baby Spice
Sotty7
Lrdwhyt

For now,

Vote: Baby Spice

, on the back of my case yesterday. I am going to do a full re-read of my scumlist before my next post.

[Percy]

HAI FURCOLOW

@FURCOLOW

You're insisting that this play of yours is your town meta. Give me three games where you can demonstrate this, and three games where you're scum and don't demonstrate this tell. If you can't, then I have no reason to believe you.

[Percy]

Another thought:

I annoyed KScope until he

obeyed my orders

provided reasons for his vote, and during his lecture he commented that I would make an awful Kingmaker because I get all emotional, or whatever his point was.

I just remembered I

was

a kingmaker, and I

didn't

listen to my gut read and ended up killing a player because he wasn't on a scum lynching wagon (he had declared a townread of the scum just before the lynch happened). I went for that tell (and I blew it up into a case and tied myself in knots etc) rather than my solid read, which was actually on scum. Link, for those interested.

I was a bad kingmaker. But that's because I was playing from your playbook, KScope.

[Percy]

What a fair and balanced view of the game, Hannity!

[Percy]

If I'm Hannity, you can be Glen Beck.

How... unimaginative.

What's really comical is Percy listed 4 people he is sure is town, and 3 of those 4 are on his wagon right now...

Just because you're town doesn't make you right. What the fuck is comical about it?

[Percy]

-King of the VI's. Check.

King? Weren't you banging on about how all I do is vote them? HURR DURR

-Loud absurd flailing. Check.
-Spouts nonsense. Check.

If you don't read my posts, then how did you reach these conclusions? Oh that's right, you're just loudly calling them nonsense and absurd, so they must be nonsense and absurd!

-False statement/distorts the truth. Check.

Ooooh, now this is something I can sink my teeth into. Have you got an example of where I have either made a false statement or distorted the truth? I'd settle for just one good example, please.

-Zero facts. Check.

What kind of facts should I have? Does this apply to every townie?
Or are you saying I don't cite examples? Because it's clear that I do.

I think you're town. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone tunnel on anyone else so hard, and for such poor reasons.

Are you going to take Mina up on her avatar bet?

[Percy]

Nice work twisting the definition of VI to your own ends! Does VI mean Very Impressive? I'd be happy to be king of the VIs if that's what it means!
Or maybe when you say VI you mean

V

people who don't like

I

Benmage... Or is it more

V

People who like

I

Percy?

-You created that magnificent far-fetched fabrication about me lying about an abnormality in this game. For the sole reason to undermine me. And tried to write it off when I became confirmed as me saving face. Meanwhile you neglected two other parties guilty of the exact same thing you accused me of. Moreover you wrote off jason whose fault shouldn't been worse. Yet prior to me becoming confirmed you were desperately trying to stick to your guns. And now your downfall is imminent, grats.

Oh hey, let's go back to the post where I gave you your True Name:

Benmage 336 - your misunderstanding of my case is wilful, and your misrepresentation constant. I think I'm going to rename you Sean Hannity. You began with "I didn't realise, I made a mistake", and after you got heat for it and I asked you about it, it became "I forgot".

The forgetting itself isn't the issue, it's changing your story under pressure.

Now you're going all out against me, but I'm not backing down. Calling my vote OMGUS is scumhunting by wiki, because you're describing my behaviour superficially and using buzzwords that don't apply.

And you're not confirmed, so why do you keep saying it?

[Percy]

@Hannity

: When you ask replacements whether they've seen the mod message confirming you as town, you're pushing it way too far.
I think it's ridiculous that you're arguing that the VIs are the ones who think I'm not scum, you're taking a useful characterisation of play and distorting it to fit your narrative.
Finally, my case against you developed from my point in this initial post, and whilst you might not follow the line of argument, others will.

@IAI

: Your hypothetical "this is what I would do if I was in Percy's situation" is complete crap. I'm trying to defend myself at the same time as present my cases. You're just sitting on your one vote and doing whatever you can to convince yourself that you don't have to do anything else.

I have zero interest reading or responding to anything KScope, jason, Benmage or IAI have to say until they unvote me. It's distracting and stupid.

(I will skim right over your posts, so don't even bother.)

I believe the case on me goes something like this:

1. Percy initially declared a scumread of Dry-fit, without giving solid reasons.
2. Later on, Percy says he doesn't like a Dry-fit lynch, and actively pushes against it.
3. Dry-fit was scum.

Sure, this narrative doesn't look good for me. I made a mistake. I regret it. If you want to hang a second person for making essentially the same mistake, then go ahead, I don't really have anything else to say in my defence.

@Sotty7

: I think Benmage's rhetoric is indistinguishable from that employed by Hannity. However, I had no idea that calling someone Hannity is as bad as calling them a c*nt, so I'll ease off

@Locke Lamora

: Your argument makes sense if I am scum; then looking for people who pushed the RC wagon over mine would look scummier. But if I'm town, what information do you get? You don't need to establish why it's good to lynch me even if I'm scum.
(Mina has made a great post on this.)

I found the recent Mina/Sotty exchange very informative. I was halfway through tapping out my case against Sotty, but Mina asked interesting questions and Sotty gave very townie answers. I'd put Mina above Sotty in a town spectrum, and I still think Sotty bears watching, but I'm not interested in making a Sotty case at this time.

Sotty's case against Lrd is similar to mine. I agree with each point (especially the hesitance over voting DF), but I still think Baby Spice is worse. I've stated my case before, and others are developing it well. Here it is in point form:

1. The slip where BS criticises jason's vote on Elmo as being "on town",
2. Her Benmage case, especially after the DF flip,
3. Her most recent post is some powerful cognitive dissonance. If you really thought this:

Sotty, Mina. You both seem to be having a go at each other, but are both voting the same player. It makes me think that one of you is faking the discussion/arguement, which is scummy, whilst buddying up to them, which is also scummy. Or that one of you is bussing hard and trying to use the other as cover.

...why would you then join the Sotty/Mina wagon on Lrd, without stating any reasons?

"Mina...f-for me...make Benmage's avatar...Barney/Baby Bop X-rated fanart...AAAAAAAAAAAH DEAR GOD MY RIB CAGE!"

@Mod

: If I'm lynched please make these my actual last words plzkthx

[Percy]

I've had an enormous weekend. Currently too hungover. Posting within 24 hours. Soz lol!

[Percy]

1. It could be a slip, or just poorly chosen words. Did she ever explain herself?
2. What's wrong with her Benmage case?
3. Yes, this looks like a thoughtless bandwagon vote, which is strange because she's accusing the two people on me.

Not a very compelling case, I'd say.

1. No, in fact she seems to have ignored it completely, unless I've missed her response.
2. The argument is that Benmage is arrogant scum, and that his initial proposal to use only one lynch was somehow motivated by scummy intentions. I just don't get it and don't see it. It feels extremely forced, like the anti-town nature of Benmage's initial plan is being spun for all its worth.
3. Glad you agree that it's strange. There's definitely enough weird reads coming out of this slot to earn my vote.

Percy, maybe I missed it, but can you elaborate on:
# Why you originally put Dry-fit on the scum list
# Why you preferred the other wagons (Red, Benmage, Furcolow, maybe others I missed) to Dry
# The interaction between your read of Benmage and Dry's wagon (and timing)
# Why specifically you say you're "nowhere near sold on the Dry-fit case" in #389?

I originally didn't like Dry-fit for opportunism, both wrt I Am Innocent and jasonT1981. I stated my reasons for liking RedCoyote, Benmage, Sotty and Furcolow in my ISO, and Benmage pushing the Dry-fit wagon made me like it less. Whilst I saw the opportunism, I didn't see the case developing and instead saw people mention the same thing over and over again. The Dry-fit case had people like Baby Spice introducing points against Dry that didn't really add up (the "anit-town plan" business) and ended up sounding much more like a deadline lynch, example:

unvote
vote: Dry-fit

Sorry dude, I get a town read on ya but we have to move this game forward to give us time for a 2nd lynch D1.

...and I felt very cautious about it. I was genuinely surprised when he flipped scum.

Another thing that's bothering me is that open, all-vanilla setups are, by a long way, the best kind to bus in. I don't want to start the conspiracy theories too early, but I would actually like to hear from everyone what they think about the possibility of Dry being bussed by at least one buddy.

I sort of agree with this:

That said, as a Day .5 lynch I would tend to expect the buddies to be a little less pleased with the idea and more likely to be on the tail end of the wagon then the front.

Of the wagonners,

Havingfitz

, Locke Lamora, Benmage, KaleiÐoscøpe, Sotty7, Elmo, I Am Innocent, Furcolow, JasonT1981

I'd say the worst are actually the players in the middle, based both on their position and their votes/cases. In fact, looking over Elmo's ISO, I'm quite surprised at how little Dry-Fit discussion there was.
It's hard for me to criticise people vaccilating over Dry-Fit, for obvious reasons, which is something Sotty appears to do. However, I'm pretty sold on my townreads on all but the middle three, so if there's scum bussing we'll find them there.

Mina's vote on Elmo was quite surprising, but I nodded along to the case. Mina called him on the right things, imo, but the clarifications seem consistent and I found myself still with a townread of Elmo by the end of his defence. I'm keen to hear more from Mina, but I don't suspect Elmo at this time.

I still like my Baby Spice vote. I don't buy her "it was all a ploy" defence, and now she's voting Sotty:

Sotty7's unvote of Lrdwhyt and vote of me was scummy, scummy, scummy! It reaked of sotty panic jumping off of a bus she had started.

This is not plausible, from both my experience of Sotty and from her stated reasons for voting you. Still, I'm also really liking the Lrdwhyt case. I think Benmage's pressure is just right.

I'm going to wait for Mina and put together my own version of the Lrdwhyt case before my next post and see how it compares to my Baby Spice case. But for now, BS's incredible amounts of cognitive dissonance sustains my case just fine.

[Percy]

Benmage, what is going on?

You voted Lrdwhyt, someone

I

have been talking about all day, and were busy interrogating him. You've been defending Baby Spice as VI, which I don't think is either fair or warranted. I've seen the Lrdwhyt case develop, and if I'm going to vote Lrdwhyt, I'm going to have a case to show why. Now you're voting Baby Spice, who you think is town, just to show me up?

Is this you wanting to win the pissing contest, or are you actually interested in finding out who the scum are? Because killing someone in the hopes that it will strengthen your case, rather than rephrasing and evaluating your case on me from what is already there, is completely insane.

I still find it conspiracy-theory level logic to suggest you're scum - that you got it into your head that being the driving force behind a Dry lynch would confirm you as town, and you could then use that favour to line up the mislynches. It's a possibility, but not one I'm seriously considering. But voting for someone you think is town just to try and get me lynched, all because your case isn't good enough, is mind boggling.

There are many players in this game that are as experienced, if not more experienced, than I am. I have been personally pantsed no fewer than three times by Sotty, and she is on my "Top 5" list for players I've had the pleasure of playing with. I may not be leading the town (though my suspects, Baby Spice and Lrdwhyt, are currently the ones with the most votes), but why is that a scumtell for me? If anything, I try to lead the town

more

when I'm scum.

FFFFFFUUUUUU- I'm arguing with Benmage again, I just can't stop!

[Percy]

I have 1,500 exams still to mark, so I can't post for today.

BUT

I'm not happy lynching Baby without re-reading Lrdwhyt closely. Even with the Benmage deadline we still have a few days.

Unvote

This unvote is only to prevent a stupid hammer. I will almost certainly replace my vote after I've done my read. Give me 24 hours, would-be hammerers.

[Percy]

EBWOP: The post above may seem to imply that I see a connection between the BS and Lrd, but I don't. I just am not happy with some of my company on this wagon, and Lrd may be the superior lynch.

[Percy]

Got stuck writing a review for one of Vi's upcoming games, and it ate all my mafia time. It's waaaay too late for me to get together a post.

Tomorrow for sure!

[Percy]

Within the next 6 hours there will be a complete catchup post from me including vote. Sorry for the suspense everyone!

[Percy]

To start with, I feel really bad about delaying things, so here's some proof that I've been actually doing what I say I've been doing:

This is the third such stack that I've had to tackle in the last week

Firstly, my re-read and vote.

Important Baby Spice post:

If I understand this right people are voting me because (In no particular order);
A: They think I'm town and want to use my flip to implicate Percy.
B: They think I'm Percy's scum buddy and want to use my flip to implicate Percy.
C: I wont vote Percy who they think is scum.
D: Voting Mongoose.

This is actually nowhere near true; whilst the first three reasons seem to be the reasons Benmage is voting for Baby Spice, there has been a lot of case development that Baby Spice has ignored for a loooong time. And I think most people have said they were null on mongoose if anything; attributing the case to her predecessor is very strange.

Lrdwhyt replacing out is BOOOOOOO. But Baby Spice unvoting Lrd says to me that the vote on Lrd really was for self-preservation purposes only. The stated reason (that replacements should be given a clean slate, effectively) goes to aid her defence, imo, as she has characterised the case on her as being on mongoose.

I don't think Baby Spice has answered any of the key points people have brought against her. And I think they're pretty good points.

The Case against Baby Spice

I have detailed some of the more salient points here, and responded to Lrd's analysis of the case here.

The voting for Lrd to somehow catch Mina or Sotty is so weird I don't even. It really, really feels like an attempt to justify not only the cognitive dissonance of her case against those two but also to somehow justify a self-preservation vote on another wagon that doesn't contradict her stated town read of me. The Benmage attitude is still weird.

And I have no idea at all why she's voting Lrd. There is not a single reason ever given, beyond this dubious "gambit" reason that is now obviously defunct. I understand even less why Lrd could be paired with Sotty.

Re-reading Baby Spice has actually increased my scumread.

A note on Sotty7

I think Sotty's vote on Baby Spice is the one that makes me cringe the most (well, not including Benmage's vote). It's not so much the vote but things like:

I see no reason to attribute Babyspice's actions as VI over scummy. But as I think your question over, I guess I have no hardened reasoning why. I find her moves scummy and not stupid.

...and a bunch of other things are bothering me about Sotty. Her vote on the wagon of Dry-fit feels like bussing and is in optimum bussing position (as I've said before), she says she likes IAI's pressure on Thor even though it's basically predicated on his being my buddy, and this is not the first time I've gotten very weirded out about Sotty. After this lynch I'll think about my Sotty case some more.

The Case against Lrdwhyt

Initially I said this:

Lrdwhyt (kingdavid's replacement) is also worth a look in. kingdavid's reaction to Nik's claim has my ears prick up (spoiler: he buys it), and when Lrdwhyt replaces in he goes after jason quite hard and doesn't commit either way to Dry-fit. I think there may very well be scum here.

I elaborated here, but I never came out particularly strongly. Reading over his ISO and I found this post, in which he comes out against

both

the wagon on me and the wagon on Baby Spice. This strikes me as odd since he was the only other wagon that had a lot of steam, aside from the brief Elmo wagon that he joined.
I liked Benmage's pushing against him for the jumping on the Elmo case.

Bottom line is that there is some weirdness here, and the replacing out is really annoying, but I'm only leaning scum on this slot.

Vote: Baby Spice

.

---

Finally, to conclude with answering some questions that have come up since I posted my "lol brb" post.

@Benmage

: You misread my first quote; the underlined portion was referring to you.
As for the rest, it's your usual frothing-at-the-mouth useless crap, so I've ignored it all.

Sotty called it hammer-time, and later said to Mina:

But in a mountainous game like this, where we get two lynches a day, you shouldn't be fighting a lynch as hard as you are unless you are convinced that player is town. Clearly you aren't convinced about Baby.

This sits really badly with me. I don't think we should be callous with our lynches at all, and this idea that we have mislynches to spare is a terribad attitude to encourage. If you weaken the conviction and reasoning required to join a wagon and allow for the "well I wasn't sure they

weren't

scum" defence for any mislynch the town's job becomes much, much harder. Yet another odd Sotty moment to add to the pile.

I know he says its a 24hour thing but it seems more like scum getting cold feet on lynching his partner.

Actually laughed out loud at this. I have absolutely zero sympathy for my scumbuddies and have no problem terminating them with extreme prejudice in games I'm in, and if you've ever played with me as scum you'd know that. Also, how can you say I'm Baby Spice's partner? In what universe is that even close to a good theory?

FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

I am so fucking angry at this continued insistence that I'm scum. It is so fucking stupid that I want to cry.
Every time I read this thread there is yet another attempt at taking whatever I've said or done and spinning it into ~*~The Scumtell of the Century~*~
Look back at the case on Dry-fit and ask yourself if it was an open-and-shut case. It wasn't? Great. Now try to get some fucking objectivity and consider the reality that I am not scum.
Jesus fucking Christ.

I threw the over-simplistic comment about it being the logical lynch out there because I wanted to see if anyone would take the bait and try to piggyback the easy lynch reason with a vote.

There are, at last count, four players who are already advocating this line of reasoning. KScope is even advocating my lynch so the town can have a "fresh start" (read: I refuse to participate until Percy is dead). Why did you need to gambit this way, when you could read for this tell already?

Finally, some pre-emptive answers for Mina:

Some of the stuff I wanted to call him on (his being so confident in his Baby Spice scum read when on Day One he seemed to only vote her by process of elimination, his completely dropping Furcolow) overlaps with what you've noticed.

My first day vote was not PoE, but based on the slip. I developed it further on that day, and I've gone further today. I don't know where you got this idea from...?
As for Furcolow, this was from the start of D1P2:

If I'm being honest, it's the same sort of muddy "is this playstyle" kind of read I have on Furcolow. He should be lynched at some point, though, and I'd like for someone else to pressure him to back up his meta arguments with links to completed games.

I've had this out there for a while, and I'm not really feeling the desire to work up a case against Furcolow right now. I will surely get to it, but right now I'm worrying about other things.
I think there was something else you said - something about me buddying to you and not pressuring people? I couldn't find it and I really need to get back to marking. I think your posts are great and I've been enjoying what you've been writing, and I've been on the back foot for a while. My D1P1 play was quite pressure-y...?

Anyway, let's lynch baby Spice.

[Percy]

It's noted that whenever there might be a leg up on my lynch like when I debate with Mina, you are right there with a post "worrying" about me. Yet when Mina declares me a town read you come up with the same thing. It's kinda creeping me out. If you do actually have a case on me, type it up and put it out there and lets talk about it. I don't like all these allusions to it. It feels like you are sniffing around trying to keep my lynch viable.

Look, you're right to note it. I've said this kind of shit before. I will put something solid together for you to look at in the next phase.
(I'm not just saying "ooooh I'm worried", I actually do give examples and explain my reasoning.)

[Percy]

Hey Baby Spice, the thing that wasn't true was this:

If I understand this right people are voting me because (In no particular order);

Which is to say, you can easily dismiss/deal with the

bad

reasons people are voting you, but you're not even acknowledging the existence of the good ones, let alone engaging with them and defending yourself from them.

Hey Furcolow, why are you accusing me of "actively pushing mislynches on VIs"?
And voting for the people that polarise is really dumb. Associative tells are the worst tells for many reasons, and lynching the polarisers

for the sole reason that they are polarising

is far too superficial.

[Percy]

I think Sotty is prob town after the flip. Unless it gets to LyLo and things are very confusing, I won't be making my promised case against her.

Percy - The fact that he has yet to be lynched looks like he's being protected by scum. The players and ways he's been voting also don't look good.

*laughs* Is that right? So who is it that is doing the protection?
And that doesn't even make any sense, because if I was scum then I'd only have one buddy, so their ability to protect me from a lynch would be negligible.

Vote: Percy

OK Baby flips scum after attacking Sotty quite a bit, confirming my thoughts Sotty is town...now the super excellent town read she has on percy is very interesting

vote: Percy

*deep breaths*

zach wants me to be nice, zach wants me to be nice, zach wants me to be nice...

OK. So. Let me get this straight.
My attitude towards Dry-fit made it obvious to you people that I'm scum, since I apparently went out of my way to defend him.
Now, even though I was the one who started attacking Baby Spice before anyone else (with the exception of jason), and without me the lynch on Baby Spice would never have happened, and I had to fight Benmage all the way tooth and fucking nail, in amongst all the accusations that I was just making up a case on a VI to save my skin, you think I'm scum with

both

Dry-fit and Baby Spice?

I don't even have any words. I really had hoped when I saw the flip that this bullshit would be over, but apparently not. I'm going to have to keep ignoring everything you two say, which is unfortunate, because it was jason's catch of Baby's slip that started my case.

*sigh* This game.

vote Mina

never attacked dryfit or baby spice. Elmo case. Lrd case.

AtE to me to get off the Baby Spice wagon.

Hmm. This may be worth a look. I'll re-read Mina tomorrow.

Vote: Empking

Last minute Percy lynch and asking for a BS case without responding to it in any way looks like a good option to me.

Looks good to me too.

Vote: Empking

(Also Thor I had at least two people accuse me of buying time / generally being scum for not posting, so I thought the picture was warranted )

[Percy]

@Empking

: You put BS as "The Scummy Side of Null" after asking Thor for the case against Baby Spice, which he provided. That was all you said about Baby Spice, no comment on it even though we were close to a lynch and BS turned out to be scum. Instead you wagonned me!

Mix in the case against Lrd and we have some tasty scum pudding. Nom.

[Percy]

Locke, your case is very impressive. I agree with every characterisation you have made of Mina's play, and the scum narrative is extremely compelling.

Unvote
Vote: Mina

[Percy]

Hey Mina,

I don't understand how you can at once say:

Yes, I look like their buddy by process of elimination.

...while at the same time say:

Is it just that Locke's case is nicely formatted?

Your defence is, essentially, that you're too scummy for scum, and that if you were actually acum with Dry-fit and Baby Spice you would have done a better job of keeping them alive. It is really that surprising that I like this case?

And the fact that it is very nicely put together doesn't mean I'm somehow blinded by the quote boxes. WTF? I know you've been upset that I haven't been pressuring people enough (which is laughable, given that the Baby Spice wagon would never have happened without me), but I've decided that it's you who needs the pressure right now. I'm sorry you didn't see this coming and counted me a close ally, but I think you're probably our last scum, and lynching you will win us the game.

Remember this?

Like, there is no way that Baby Spice and Percy are scumbuddies, for example. Not just because Percy's throwing her under a bus--because he's throwing her under a bus at the same time that she's been kissing up to him and calling him obvtown all game.

Or this?

Okay, if anyone dares to vote for Percy

now

, I'm reaching through the computer monitor and strangling you.

But now you're saying:

But I'd like to check Baby Spice's past games and see if she's the type to kiss up to a scumbuddy (which would help my reads of Elmo and Percy).

...

Oh, yeah. In case you aren't following, I want you lynched before Furcolow (who I've done a 180 on and I think is probably town, both because of mongoose's interactions and because of his reactions to Benmage's vote.) I think you're just the person who'd want to sacrifice your buddy for town cred given your terrible position. (Logically, it would also make sense for Thor, but he really feels townish to me.)

This is a gobsmackingly scummy reaction from you. You've turned about your (extremely sensible) read just because I voted you? Add in the patronising comment and I think we have a scum Mina on our hands for sure. You're like me when you get caught as scum; you get really mad that you haven't been caught for the right reasons

You're right about the number of mislynches we get. Believe it or not, I don't suck at maths, but I do kinda suck at arithmetic... Still, we're going to play this out old-school. Oh it's going to be brutal, but there will be no resting on laurels and/or pre-determining lynches. It's a terrible idea when the town is in such a commanding position to cede all our ground simply because we can. We're going to lynch the people we find scummy, one at a goddamned time, with reasons and wagons and debate. Your suggestion is

incredibly

scummy, and I have

serious

objections to any plan that involves anything of the sort.

While I still think the Empking slot has a better chance of being scum than most, I think yours has more. Trying to paint my vote on you as somehow betraying my case against the Empking slot is terribad.

I think Locke's point about your Dry-fit interaction is minor, but it is appropriately stated by Locke that you were one of the people who weren't too excited about his lynch. Guess who else wasn't? Yeah. So it's not a fantastic tell in isolation, but sets up the rest of the post rather nicely.
And rather than re-write Locke's excellent post, I'll quote the most relevant sentence:

I think this displays a contradictory thought process because it's quite evident from every Mina post after her BS vote that she doesn't see BS as scum. She's always saying that she agrees with this point or that, or that she wouldn't miss BS too much, but when it comes down to it, she consistently takes the position that BS is a mislynch.

The real meat of the case is there. And he tops it all off with how it nicely explains Baby Spice's weird "I bet one of Sotty/Mina is scum" comments.

More Mina voting please.

[Percy]

I'm going to put the brakes on Mina's plan right now.

We lynch you, me, Elmo, Percy, and Kaleidoscope. Any problem with that?

That leaves jason, Sotty, IAI, Thor, Locke, Furcolow, Benmage.
Three will be NKed. Let's say (for the sake of argument) that Sotty, Locke and Thor are town and are NKed.
That would leave jason, IAI, Furcolow and Benmage.
Are you willing to bet that none of these players are scum? If not, can you guarantee that the three town amongst them would be able to, even with two lynches, secure the town a victory?

I don't want to downplay how good a position we're in, but this quicklynch plan is anti-town to the maxxxx. Why would we

not

play this out? Give me some motivation, besides that this allows the town to still win while being lazy.

There is one part of the plan I do agree with - let's lynch Mina.

[Percy]

@Mina

: I can see that you're trying to relegate my attacks against you to this particular plan discussion. You haven't answered any of the objections; you said you wanted to call attention to this "first". When you're done congratulating yourself, make sure you get to the rest of it. Even if I forget this distracting plan discussion, I still think Locke's case is excellent, and I've developed it some more.

Onto the plan; I think it's scummy to suggest this plan, because it makes very little sense. As I have said before, the town is in a very commanding position, and your plan risks that lead. You yourself acknowledge that it might get to 1v3, and that's a

lot

worse than our current 1v11. I do not understand why you are considering lining up lynches like this.

Answer me right now, Percy. Do you think that any one of Sotty, jason, Benmage, IAI, Locke, Thor, or Furcolow has any chance whatsoever of being scum? I want you to name which one. No, not this total cop-out of, "But...they might make the wrong decision!" Total fucking cop out. Who do you think is scum of Benmage, IAI, Furcolow, and jason?

Why?

Of course they all have a chance of being scum. The burden of proof rests with you, not me. I think they have less of a chance of being scum than other players; a scum continuum from least to most likely would look like <jason, Benmage, Locke, Sotty, Thor, IAI, Furcolow>. I am not obliged to make cases against these people to suit you. I can't be

sure

that these people aren't scum. Hell, you've not only gotten by in this game but are even defending yourself now by appealing to your lack of certainty. Are you saying that you're now sure that none of these players are scum? None, not even a chance?

Why?

The fact that you're trying to spin the fact that I'm proposing this plan into proof that I'm scum looks as though you're terrified of the town following it.

Both of these sentences are true; I do think you're scum, and I am terrified that the town will follow this plan. I have already accrued enough psychic damage from this game, and to lose because the town got overconfident would break me.

Bottom line is this:

You have failed to demonstrate to me why your plan has a better chance of catching scum than proceeding without the plan. As far as I can tell, it makes it less likely.

Your argument, effectively, is that if we lynch these five people, we surely can't lose! And I think that's retarded.

Now that the hubris that lies at the core of your plan lies exposed, why do I consider it a scum move? I think that, in practice, any plan like this would get derailed. I can imagine someone like yourself appealing to be the last one lynched, playing hard for a few days to build your towncred, biding your time and working to stop the plan a few lynches in. By proposing such a plan, you don't even need to address the case against you either, because, hey, you're going to be lynched, right?
This feels like a desperate ploy from scum-Mina. I cannot imagine town-Mina coming up with this plan.

Finally, I don't get whether you think I'm scum or not. You're saying how awesome it is that I fell into your oh-so-cleverly placed trap, but do you honestly think I'm the last scum? Or do you think it's Empking, the person you're voting? I documented in my last post how you went from "Percy is obviously town" to whatever the hell this is. Explain, kthx.

[Percy]

Vote: Mina

I think Mina has a better chance of being buddies with Dry-fit and Baby Spice, and I think that either Sotty7 or Mina are scum, given Baby Spice's strange play while her wagon was going on.

There's a lot I'd really like to say about Percy in particular.

I still don't know whether you think I'm scum. Your behaviour yesterday with all the "trap" talk was very confusing.

I've just read up to page 35 and I agree that Percy could be scum too.

Urgh, what shit. Yeah, I could be scum, and nothing has cleared me, but if you really have read the last 35 pages, you'll be able to tell me what you like about the case against me...?

JasonT really likes to bandwagon

I lol'd. Jason is almost certainly town, Furc - the Dry-fit interaction is a pretty good indicator.


Hey Mina,

Finally, I don't get whether you think I'm scum or not. You're saying how awesome it is that I fell into your oh-so-cleverly placed trap, but do you honestly think I'm the last scum? Or do you think it's Empking, the person you're voting? I documented in my last post how you went from "Percy is obviously town" to whatever the hell this is. Explain, kthx.

Your rhetoric yesterday was pretty full on. You were obviously attempting to get a case against me going (or at the very least some momentum in the anti-Percy wagon that isn't powered by shallow thinking and stubborn idiocy), but pulled it back at the last minute and haven't revisited it. Devote me a wall to this theme, please.

[Percy]

I think he's probably town. I thought Elmo was town. I think his case against Sotty7 is pretty bad, though; the three tells he isolates (for no good reason I can see) apply equally, if not better, to others.

In particular, Sotty7 has been quite active, and there was some substantial interaction between Baby Spice and Sotty later down the track. Sure it's not "early game", but looking at the Dry-fit wagon has netted us nothing so far and I don't see anything particularly persuasive.

I've been jumping at Sotty's shadow for a lot of the game, because I simply can never read her, and she is fucking amazing at this game. I'd certainly lynch Sotty before I lynched IAI, Benmage or Jason, but I think right now that Mina is our last scum.

@Sotty7

: What is your read on Thor?

[Percy]

V/LA for a two days

- celebrating my wedding anniversary!

[Percy]

Percy, I am having serious flash backs to AA.

I know....

Unless he suffers from some kind of personality disorder, I'd say the chances of him being scum are equivalent to the chance of picking out scum from the list randomly.
Verdict... Cleared.

Cleared? Your rhetoric suggests your read is null.

But yes, his interactions with the confirmed scums are minimal AND his activity is little thus raising the probability of him being scum.

If you're talking about Dry-fit, then you're right. There's a whole saga about that.
But it's just not true with Baby Spice, so... lolwut?

@MINA:

I know you're reading this, so I'll answer your questions. Anyone else can read under the cut if they want.

Spoiler: For Mina

I have been fighting this stupid case against me for a long time. When I pushed the Baby Spice case to a lynch in spite of everything, I gotta tell you, I felt vindicated. I accidentally woke my sleepy wife up, I was so excited. The next day when people started voting me

again

... it really made me rage. And you seemed like one of the few sensible ones, who actually saw the case for what it was - lazy, useless dribble.

Then you changed your mind and sounded like you were going to turn on me, just as you started to get negative attention. I saw in your scum narrative a change from earning currency off my mislynch to a desparate attempt to have me lynched instead of you, as I was the most likely mislynch. I pushed a case on you hard, and you're dead now, and I'm sad that you were town.

I didn't like the tone of your "I'm sorry you didn't see this coming and counted me as a close ally." Do you honestly believe this?

No. It was bait.

Your first posts out of the gates were, "Look how town this makes me look, and I can't believe you idiots are

still

wagoning me." You were really trying to maximize the town credit that you deserve for lynching Baby Spice, and it made me paranoid that your primary interest was trying to clear yourself from the suspect pool.

I still like the tone of those posts. I'd say it made me look very fucking town, in the same way the DF case made Benmage look town. And I think those still wagonning me are really bad at this game.

You didn't explain why you were buddying up to a null read. Instead of explaining your thought process, it felt as though you were turning it around on me, what with all the "..?" punctuation marks and the "Really, are you sure you think this?" vibes. I find that some really really good manipulators do this as scum.

Look, what can I say to rebuff this case against me? I've hashed over it so many times. What could I say beyond "You are flat out contradicting yourself" - the burden to explain was on you, not me.

And I'll admit that your sudden suspicions of me made me a lot warier of you. What bothered me was that I'd felt as though you were trying to buddy up to me before. You kept on listing me as a neutral read, saying you were unsure of me, etc., but not

once

did you attack me head-on. Instead, you just kept on agreeing with throwaway comments I made and complimenting me on a read or a funny line. Like I said before, it gave me the feeling that you wanted to keep an ally on your side, but still leave yourself open to suspect me. When I called you on it, you dodged the issue of whether you suspected me, but said you can't help yourself, because my posts are sooooooo great. So then sudden turnaround to "Hmm, I never noticed this before, but you guys are right, and Mina is super scummy, and let's lynch her," set off a bell.

I was unsure of you, but I didn't feel a great need to fix this while I had so many other leads to pursue and this stupid case hanging over my head. But when you started trying to plan the town's destruction and reversed your read on me, my own bells went off.

You're like me when you get caught as scum; you get really mad that you haven't been caught for the right reasons

Well, this is interesting.

What are you talking about? Since the entire case on me is based on connections rather than my own behaviour, the "caught for the wrong reasons" tell would only apply if I'm on a second scum team. I've actually admitted that my interactions with the flipped scum look bad. So it's the opposite--I'm "framed for the right reasons." Please explain just what you mean by this.

"Caught for the wrong reasons" was in response to your attacking me due to Baby Spice interaction rather than defending yourself from Locke. You were ready to defend the turnabout of your read on me, but simply got mad about Locke's case. That's what I thought, anyway.

Also, I'm just curious. Why didn't you notice these contradictory thoughts of mine on Baby Spice until Locke pointed it out?

What can I say? I was concentrating on lynching Baby Spice.

Now, from beyond the grave, I bring this:

Guys, can you wagon Kaleidoscope during phase 2, even if you don't lynch him? The slot could use a bit of pressure. Please get him to answer these questions:

Kaleidoscope:

1) Why do you suspect Percy? Give us reasons. You mentioned that you hated his post about the Kingmaker. But on D1, was there anything else?
2) Why were you willing to explain to Percy before why you suspected Red Coyote, but not willing to explain to me why you suspected Percy?
3) I don't think you've answered this:

Why did you change your vote to RC at this point? I don't understand. You had said before that you were voting me only because of the size of the wagon. Moving your vote at this point made RC the bigger wagon by one vote because you moved from me. So, plz2explain?

Vote count before you switched from Percy to Red: 5 Percy vs. 4 Red
Vote count after you switched from Percy to Red: 5 Red vs. 4 Percy

You see why "I voted for the biggest bandwagon" doesn't fly?

4) What were your thoughts on Baby Spice vs. Lrdwhyt/Empking? Why didn't you ever weigh in on the leading wagons? Who would you have voted for had you chosen between the two wagons before the deadline? Be honest.

Vote: KaleiÐoscøpe

I think Benmage is town because of the way he pushed the Dry-fit case.
I think I Am Innocent is town for a variety of reasons, and those reasons are all independent of my other thoughts about him...
I think the scum's relationship to jason makes him unlikely scum.
I've been wrong before, but gut tells me Sotty is town. If I'm wrong I'm going to cry, but she can be revisited later.

I think Thor is town for both the case against Mina yesterday, and gut. I'm not sure, and should probably re-read him. WTF is with the self-voting? Given we had one instance already in this game makes me
I think Nul's replace-in post was bizarre, but something about his attitude and his predecessor seemed town.

The last two are gut and I could be swayed. Still, KScope is the big hole here. And what I quoted above from Mina is worth reading too. He has coasted through this game, and his ISO speaks for itself.

Time for the rope, KaleiÐoscøpe.

[Percy]

I'm a liability at this stage and shouldn't get to endgame with town and other than Baby Spice have been pretty dorky-der-dappy with my suspects so it's not like it's a great loss.

Hm. I think this is anti-town and really lazy, but whatever floats your boat.

Really not liking his #1302 talkling about Mina then votes Scope without any reasoning.

Did you even read that post?

Well lets see what happens.

Unvote vote Percy

You know what's going to happen...

Also, if you're baiting someone, how did it turn out? Who are you suspicious of, Percy?

I was baiting Mina. It turned out not so well.

Preview-edit: Looks like jason finally got around to reading my post. I suggest anyone voting for me do the same.

[Percy]

I think Percy is a necessity lynch right now (as in today)

Why?

See, this is how I see it:

Benmage pushes Dry-fit lynch, opposes Baby Spice lynch.
Percy opposes Dry-fit lynch, pushes Baby Spice lynch.

Why am I in the necessity lynch column, and you're "confirmed" town?

(And yes, I still think you're town. But why are you still talking about lynching me whyyyyy)

[Percy]

So I have a chest infection and nowhere near enough mindspace to do this shit all over again.

I'm town, and I hate every single one of you on my wagon. Please go die in a fire.

My strongest town reads are on jason, Furcolow and Benmage. That leaves Equinox, Thor and IAI.

I just flicked through IAI and still think he's town. Something about his attitude towards the two known scum seems genuine.

Vote: Thor665

. Elmo/Nul seemed town to me, and Thor is left over by PoE.

[Percy]

I am very happy that we won this game. I would have had a meltdown if we lost this one!

Benmage's 1-2-3 success. Told ya I had this one on lockdown. Just needed to bypass a little collateral damage.

I'd like to add my thanks to Zach for running the game and to Sotty for inviting me to play in the first place.

This!

We got luckyish with baby spice

Oh, and Benmage? Here's your new avatar.

Yesssssssss

(Percy, I revoked my bet. IT DOESN'T COUNT!)

Awwwww....

Historically, balance in a mountainous game is best at a ratio of 2:10. The double day mechanic is definitely beneficial to the town, so adding an additional scum player was necessary.

I think the game could be run and still be balanced at 3:10 or 3:11 - this kind of game requires a lot more work from scum than your average game. But 3:13 worked out well, considering how close we came to losing!

I think Thor did really well at the end there and got a lot of mislynches happening before he got done, so kudos to him. I'm relatively happy with my play in this game; I was wrong about Dry-fit, and even though I somehow spent the entire game being hounded for it, I still got the BS lynch. And the KScope lynch felt fucking fantastic, even though he was town. Vindictive, much?

Thanks again to Zach for a great game, and I had fun playing with you all!