Zachtown in the mountains (Game over TOWN WINS!)

[Thor665]

Greetings all,

As noted above I (and my awesome beard) are replacing Nikanor (whose beard is, at best, acceptable). When I replace in I read the thread and will post up vague walls of commentary text. This I feel is helpful as it will 1. help establish your attitude towards me as a player and 2. will possibly remind you of something interesting that already happened.

I do promise you that this slot will never again need replacement. I'll also promise superior scumhuntng, but find that's harder to ensure. I seem to average about 7-10 pages each catching up session, so probably will manage to be caught up by the weekend sometime.

Special greetings to everyone I've played with before.

[Thor665]

tl:dr - I am awesome, witty, and clever
Also I suspect Dry Fit and Red Coyote with a heaping helping of IAI on the side.
Elmo, Oso, furcolow, and jasonT are all obv. town.

===============================================================================
I probably would have merrily followed Benmage on his pressure of I Am Innocent - if nothing else I Am Innocent pursuing Benmage for suggesting a no lynch *after* Benmage had already figured out it wasn't a great idea is pretty silly and would deserve an opening vote.

Pretty offput by RC's shift to Nikanor/Thor665 over IAI calling/not calling Benmage scummy. Seems a total shift away from the heart of the topic of active discussion and a dodge for his odd play at that point.

Post 67 from Percy is saying a lot of what I'm thinking.

Hey guys, my name is jasonT1981, I'm Town! You can tell I'm town because I'm complaining about anti-town stuff without doing anything about it. I'm Town!

Elmo is super obvious town.

Furcolow is not drmyshottyizsick - but good gawd. *sigh*

Mina is <3 to me. $5 predicts a vague Mina meltdown between the page I'm on and the current one.

Furcolow suggesting it's scummy for IAI to have a townread after 70 posts...though I agree with attacking IAI I can't tell if this shows that I'm also terrible because I do fast town reads or if furcolow has a very slow radar. Since it's hip to put down furcolow I'll just presume I'm awesome and move forward.

Considering the Day .5 flip it's pretty clear Oso is town with the attack and counter attack he just had. iamkingdavid is pretty terribad with the contnued push on Benmage - I can't tell if he's just VI or if he's scum who thinks the wagon has legs still if given a push. But, seriously, backing Mongoose's play? Erk.

129-137 from furc is hilarious! He chides someone because in "games like this" town reads should be kept to oneself, which suggests he has an opinion on the setup and optimal play...then 14 minutes later he's double-checking to see if a day-cop claim was serious. He then goes into a discussion with Elmo about protecting PRs Oh man, my stomach hurts now.

When jasonT does itI find it less funny. (when iamkingdavid joins the show I start sobbing slightly)

Didn't Nikanor trick me into this thing via playerlist strength?

Yay, Elmo comes to make sense of things...
Boo, jasonT votes Elmo for saying sensible things...WTF?

Boom, RedCoyote is on the scum list! "You're so dumb as to not understand that there are no PRs...only scum would be this dumb, ergo you are scum...because, y'know, town are never dumb" <---and oh gawd I would love to play in the game where this was actually true. In any case, obvious logical fallacy and easy mislynch option is obvious. Also, also, he manages to ignore how two other players were operating in the same mistaken concept and votes the one who did it second...because...?

I'd be voting RC at this stage.

KaleiÐoscøpe earns some town points for being the first one to say something sensible. Prior to him both Dry Fit (scum) and IAI (meltdown town/scum) managed to either vote or soft-sell a vote on jasonT.

I'll even go so far as to call jasonT obvious town at this stage, though that does sort of make my toes curl to have to write.

Ah, I see the Space Time Server Crisis hit this game - so who the hell knows when some of these posts were/weren't made...awkward. Eh, I'll just POST IN ALL CAPS AND SCREAM FOR A SECOND ABOUT HOW BRILLIANT I AM, that way the timing doesn't matter because I'm so good and awesome via caps lock raising my IQ - less effort that way.

Furcolow is obvious town too. Man, this game is going to be easy, isn't it?

Oso recognizes the humor in the "PRgate" discussion and pegs the three funniest posters too. He's still obv. town. (funny though, he suspects furc for *exactly* the logic I'm clearing him by. That sucks, only one of us can be brilliant, beautiful, and awesome - so I'm hoping he's just being dumb)

KaleiÐoscøpe loses some town points. *sigh*

There's some sort of connection between IAI's name and IIoA isn't there? I can't believe he's acting like Benmage is scummy for not being a fan of lynches without flip information. Buh? I could see *disagreeing* with him - but calling it scummy? He's also still all over the jason/Oso paradigm. *mutter, mutter*

mongoose is an anchor around town's neck. Not sure if it's a scum or town anchor yet, but I can certainly detect the weight.

Sotty has a Locke and KaleiÐoscøpe town read as her strongest? No!!!!! (of course I sort of have extra information then she did then so...clearly I am the better scumhunter. Yes.)

Why does Furc, when responding to one sentence, always quote the entire wall of the player he's responding to? I may just start skipping his posts soon.

Sotty looks town too, that is awesome.

Post #188 - Mina meltdown. I win $5!

[Thor665]

Fun fact, deadline is in ~48 hours.

Ergh! Nikanor's replacement timing suxxors!

Ack. Um...of the viable wagons...

$10 now, yes?

Okay, I've read 1-8 and 22-23 of the thread.
I feel like I'm in Clash of Kings all over again with a replace in near a deadline situation.

Okay, so our lynch deadline is tomorrow and our options are Red Coyote, Percy, and Baby Spice (or as I know him, Mongoose)

I have *no* idea what the Percy wagon is about - as far as I can see he looks town. I'm with mina on being fooled by Percy before but if someone could give me a quick summation/link to the Percyscum case I'd appreciate it. At the moment I have very little urge to lynch him.

I could very well be game for an RC lynch, he looks scummy as a New York subway thus far, and it doesn't seem like he's gotten any better. What's the RCtown case and why should I listen to it?

BabySpice/Mongoose strikes me as the compromise candidate in the mix. I'm not really for or against this lynch except on basic policy at the moment. Is Baby Spice's play equally VItastic to Mongoose's?

[Thor665]

Unvote: Whoever I might be voting
Vote: Red Coyote

I see no reason why people shouldn't have to be begging and working for me if they want this vote somewhere else at this stage. Plus, I like the attention.

[Thor665]

@Mina - you having a meltdown is a bit like MoI analyzing vote counts or Benmage being confident, or Fate using capslock. If for some reason I replaced into a game of 20+ pages with you and you hadn't had a meltdown of some sort I'd probably vote you on principal.

Lrdwhyt = iamkingdavid? I'm not sure you're going to get me to try that last minute wagon dance. I see the case there but I feel stronger about the RC slot.

[Thor665]

So we're lynching Benmage next then, hmmm?

[Thor665]

My Top 2 still are Percy & Nikanor/Thor

Is this connection based off of Nik's actions as well, or just mine?
Because if just mine - pffft.

Good job managing to proclaim a scum team and also condone the lynch of the day without voting it. Were you really townish between pages 9 and 21? Because I have no idea why you weren't among the potential lynch options of the day.

[Thor665]

As you can see, I have not deviated from it whatsoever, except that Red seems a bit more townie now that you voted for him and not Percy....albeit without reading 12 pages in this thread...

You are absolutely, I haven't read those pages...I admitted openly to that, which is why you know it is true...the point you're making from this is?

Let me guess, I'm in your top 2 now. OMGUS much?

I think you and I disagree very strongly on what OMGUS means.
Yes, you are in my top two.

[Thor665]

I want to see Thor's thoughts on the pages he hasn't read as soon as possible.

[/quote]
Now that I've survived through the night I'll get on that more earnestly - I'm up through page 13 so I should be able to finish either this evening or tomorrow.

Here's the pages I did over night;

Moving onward, page 9-13

Oso chooses to take the whole PR thing and go with the reverse of the Red Coyote case wherein only town are that stupid because scum would have discussed it already...eh. I have to admit it makes some sense, but it's still a fallacy. Though the only player we're disagreeing about off that tell is iamkingdavid so I don't think we'll have to have a huge fight about it.

Did people get off IAI because he seems too pedantic to be town? His case on Oso is terribad and shows either scummy stupidity or just an inability to understand what Oso is saying.

Uf da! It's just multiple pages of VI wars...

I think I understand some of the drive to lynch Benmage now. Not sure I'm really buying into him attempting to deflect off of Dry-fit into Percy of all people. His Percy case is kinda 'eh' at the moment. I see what he's driving at, but I'm not buying it as scummy as he is. I don't buy Percy's drive on Benmage either for what it's worth.

I'm definitely ignoring all of shotty's posts as I read. I see no reason to try to track town/scum reads as mercurial as that.

IAI believes everyone is town, except for VI players - who are scum. Derpy, derpy-doo.

The Percy/Benmage thing is starting to look more and more like a purely stylistic difference between them.

[Thor665]

Nice way to try to defend your partner.

Yes, because all defense is automatically scum protecting their partners

Very opportunistic vote here. The vote count prior to this was Red 5, Percy 4.

And if I'd voted Percy would I have been opportunistically protecting my buddy RC?

Your arguments make no sense and it looks like you're just trying to heap up random scumtells and a fake buddy to help sell your Percy suspicion. You better not try to lynch Percy because "Thor is his buddy" because that is a super scummy and terrible case.

[Thor665]

Hmmm, 2nd quote tag failure. T'was IAI in that one, I'd never say something that scummy.

[Thor665]

Page 14-catching up

Scummiest post I've seen from Benmage, and really the only scummy thing I've seen.
@Benmage - justify, please?

Making a side note here, Benmage seems obsessed with Percy in his posts.

Hah!

Oh gawds - I have totally skipped some walls by furc and jason.

IMI's vote on Dry-fit It should probably come as no surprise, but I'm not really impressed by it. He seems to almost be proud of noting how it's a town read. I'll admit that's a little odd as far as bussing actions go, but quite frankly so is voting someone while saying you think they're a mislynch. I'm gonna have to think on this one.

Pure win from furc <--he should know too.

Okay, page 16 and I think I've finally gotten to the heart of what will become the Percy case (his shift to furc over Dry-fit when previously mentioning Dry-fit as scummy and not mentioning furc as scummy)

Let's be honest though - how town did furc look to most of you at this stage? I'm reading it from a furctown standpoint and even I'm flipping past furc's stuff because it looks horribad. RC actually hit the best point here but even so that post was 200 posts previous, so a change of opinion isn't anywhere near as odd as he's suggesting.

Agree with jasonT about Baby Spice - continuing a push on jason like that looks like poor scum play, he also changed his tune awkwardly as people sounded off against it. He's on the list.
------------------------------
And that's about the end of the exciting stuff I have to add. Let's catch up to our conversations now in progress
------------------------------

So let's recap. Nikanor's vote is stuck, he replaces out, Thor comes in, and does what any good scum should do around a deadline. Play the wait and see card...

Wagon leaves his teammate, takes off on the townie. Gives the ol' UNVOTE Whoever I'm voting, hahaha, and vote RC, despite only reading 9 pages. My vote can be bought tho, cause I like the attention, hahahaha. (not funny by the way).

******************************

Yeah, this game is over. Or should be over today, with obv scum team Percy/Thor.

Okay, I actually see your point about my leaving of the vote on Percy - the only defense I have for that is I'm not really a serial unvoter and with me not having read up and believing Nikanor isn't a totally dork-head of a player I was content to leave my vote where it was. That's all I've got for a defense there though, so take it with whatever grains of salt you will.

That said - my lurking and leaving my vote on my "scumbuddy" is scummy how exactly? I could see that as scummy play from me if *Percy was town* not if he was my buddy (as you tend to want to call your buddies scum when you're getting them lynched for boku-town points). So if you have a scum read on my slot I fail to see how that translates to Percyscum.

@Sotty7 - Mina does always dither wall posts. That's null with her.

I want to lynch either BabySpice or IAI today. They are both pretty dang scummy. I don't seem to have much support out there for the IAI wagon, though I'd like you all to weigh in on my comments about his case as it currently stands.

Vote: Baby Spice

I never even had a town read on Mongoose for her to destroy

[Thor665]

I'm definitely ignoring all of shotty's posts as I read. I see no reason to try to track town/scum reads as mercurial as that.

shotty?

Eh, I'm in a game with him also at the moment - the two of them blur a bit.

[Thor665]

Thor's moving his vote from Baby Spice to RC killed the BS wagon.

Derp - I had thought Nika was on Percy.

So...wait, IAI's theory is that I was scum because I didn't vote for my scumbuddy and instead lurked (hoping to get BS lynched? Hoping the Percy wagon would dissipate/go through without me?), and then later came in with defense of said scumbuddy, called him town, and voted the alternate big wagon.

If I'm a ballsy enough scum to call my scumbuddy town and vote the "obvious opposing town wagon" then what in my lurking was scummy at all? The fact that IAI is painting me as both lurky scum and ballsy buddy-defending scum suggests that all he's doing is taking whatever I do and deciding it's scummy. Case is terribad and so is the current Percy case. I'm okay with the Lrdwhyt case, but would rather lynch Baby Spice.

[Thor665]

Page 14-catching up

Scummiest post I've seen from Benmage, and really the only scummy thing I've seen.
@Benmage - justify, please?

Ask a question please. Do you also want to play the noob card this game and not understand what V/LA means?

Are you playing a newb card to try to avoid the question?
Do you believe scum can be VIs?

Please wait till you are caught up in thread before voting. You're voting on out-dated/inaccurate information.

Mina, You have Thor on whatever page he is casting Smurffy votes. Lynching town RC. So gladddddd he listened to your advice and voted with blindfolds on (siiiiiiiike). Rather than following confirmed town. Good choice. (<----internet sarcasm)

I am now caught up (the post you're quoting is page 14-catching up, hence is page 14 through to catching up, natch). Is Baby Spice town somehow? Please educate me.
Also, my vote on RC is mine, not Mina's.
==========================================================================================================

And when did you defend Percy? I'd love to see the post.

here

Cause the first time you mention Percy was not until RC's wagon got up to 5 votes (and Percy's got down to 4 votes). A safe time to defend your partner huh? Would only make sense since you were voting the competing wagon. Not so ballsy huh?

And what was the relative space of time between the moment I replaced in and said I had a town read on Percy? I'm sorry the super obvious wagon on scum fell apart between when I first posted on

Wednesday

and called Percy a town read on

Thursday

. I probably planned that too, amirite? Thank gawd my lurking paid off within 24 hours of awesome.
==========================================================================================================

Thor, by the way, I have a question. What makes you suspect Baby Spice more than Lrdwhyt? Yesterday, you seemed lukewarm to BS, and actually seemed to like the LW case.

I do like the LrdWhyt case.
Baby Spice is Mongoose, and I called out Mongoose for scummy acts pretty early as I recall - I frankly think I probably dinged them both equally if anything.
Also, right at the moment, Baby Spice on the LrdWhyt wagon makes my toes curl. You should come over her, I have hot chocolate and Barry Manilow records.

Also, you had a townread on Furcolow yesterday. Out of curiosity, where did that come from?

Off the top of my head it was because of interactions with Dry-fit around the start of the Dry-fit wagon. The reasons that furc got onto that wagon did not look like buddy-bussing reasons, they looked like "you annoy me" reasons. Scum usually try to earn town points via bussing. I also think Dry-fit was kinda pressing on furc aggressively at the time and that also didn't look like bussing. If you want me to pull relevant quotes and make a case of it I can, but I prefer not to bother unless anyone is trying to do a serious run at furc.

[Thor665]

I edited the below posts to put certain thoughts in juxtaposition;

Do you believe scum can be VIs?

-Are you Smurfing kidding me? Of course. Stop wasting my time.

Is Baby Spice town somehow? Please educate me.

Yeah. Read point 2 of Percy's case against BS. That is why BS is obv-

VI

-town.

So VI = town.
But scum can be VI?

I don't see how Baby Spice playing poorly means she is scum - it doesn't follow. Poor players appear as both alignments. Is there something deeper to BS as town?

the thing we need to look at, though, as a town is who can help us if they are town. Percy could. Could lrdwhyt? I don't believe so.

Oh man, that's...wait, were you serious? Furc, buddy, you probably don't want that can of worms opened.
Vote him for being scummy, not for being potentially less helpful if scum.

Also;

Unvote: Baby Spice
Vote: Lrdwhyt

I'd still rather string up BS first, but Lrdwhyt is pretty solid scum potential too. Plus the Percy wagon is really not that good. (and IAI is on it)

[Thor665]

so you criticize me, then you sheep my vote thor?

I criticize your logic in a joking manner.
And I'm sheeping Mina (or actually just following suspicions I already stated - take your pick)

@IAI - Yes, I did get on a wagon that was a counterwagon to Percy - and I SAID I DID IT! Good catch.

Unvote, Vote: Babyspice

Do you have any idea how unfair it is to me to do this after IAI's newest theory about how I'm opportunistic vote hopping? I'm going to be listening to his terricases for an additional week now. That said...

Unvote: LrdWhyt
Vote: Babyspice

This should happen.

[Thor665]

How are you distinguishing between B.S. being scum and what Benmage thinks, i.e. a VI?

Also, now that Sotty has answered, I'd like to point out that Benmage's VI case does go something like this;

1. BS is doing horribly scummy things.
2. Only a complete idiot would do that as scum.
3. Ergo BS is obvious town.

Without addressing this.

1. BS is doing horribly scummy things.
2. She is horribly opportunistic scum.

Bad scum play happens, and Benmage has established he sees BS as a weak player without addressing why she can't be a weak scum player.

[Thor665]

@Elmo - so attempting to lynch someone for whom there isn't a support base equates to town? I see your/Ben's logic, I just don't think it's as good as you do.

[Thor665]

Well, it's not my logic; I don't wholly agree with it, but I do think that a lot of the reasons given to suspect BS are somewhat kneejerk-y, inthat they'd quite possibly still be true if she was town.

I can see that argument.

Do you see my points on Percy though? Other then getting personally offended at Benmage (shock) his great scumtell is not liking the Dry-fit wagon. That can come from town just as much as BS's actions could (I've certainly been the town idiot caught defending scum before). I feel that the Percy wagon is being confirmation biased into something bigger then it really is, the case just doesn't seem either that solid or large and all the people chirping on about "we need to lynch him to get reads on other people" are not exactly selling me on how obvious scum Percy is.

@Benmage - I know opportunism came from Mongoose, though I recall BS making some move I considered opportunistic. If you really have an issue with me using that word say so and I'll dig both points up with quotes/links.
The rest of your point seems to suggest that BS would be a better player as scum then as town - am I reading that wrong? Because if I'm not I still really disagree.

[Thor665]

Noone would be that dumb as scum .... you can disagree, but whatever.

And yes link the opportunism of both please

I actually remembered wrong, I had Mongoose down as a middle of the road fence sitter, not as opportunistic <--Thor fail. For me baby Spice's opportunism is best showcased here
To provide context, this is day 2, after a Dry-fit lynch, and BS has been harping on jasonT (the heart and center of Dry-fit's push for a lynch) for the exact case that Dry-fit was peddling. Me am scum, me am need no new case.

@furc - Really? Admit it, you're voting IaI just to get me super excited, aren't you. There's no way both of my wagons of choice are being picked up - I must have paid a nice compliment to lady Luck. Needless to say, I support this wagon and if people don't want to lynch Baby Spice I think this is an *excellent* alternative.

the thing is, I don't feel we've heard enough about

why

he took that stance on Dry-fit (et al). If he's able to state a clear, reasonable justification, then I don't think that alone makes for a strong case; but there's always a chance that if he's scum, he'll be unable to do so, which would definitely implicate him.

That's a fair point and has been what you've been driving at. I personally think town or scum Percy either has a reason or can fabricate one, so I tend to just go with whether or not I believe he had one and let that be the way I decide - you may use your own methods as long as you eventually agree with me

I'm (personally) not super happy about defending him from this specifically since (to me) there remains a reasonable chance he's scum. Along those lines, I should probably say that I

don't

have any confidence in BS being town, and I plan to reread her and try to get a better handle on her play within the next couple of days.

Don't forget to look at Mongoose when you do, dithering fence-sitting scum is dithering.
I'm willing to accept there's a reasonable chance that Percy is scum - I just can't condone the lynch for reasons stated. I'm willing to accept the possibility he is scum, but thus far my read is town and that the case is a bit silly.

Another thing that's bothering me is that open, all-vanilla setups are, by a long way, the best kind to bus in. I don't want to start the conspiracy theories too early, but I would actually like to hear from everyone what they think about the possibility of Dry being bussed by at least one buddy.

Heck, I bus in closed non-vanilla setups, so it makes perfect sens to me. That said, as a Day .5 lynch I would tend to expect the buddies to be a little less pleased with the idea and more likely to be on the tail end of the wagon then the front.

[Thor665]

Why is that? Because you suspected RC (when it protected Percy), you suspect me (for calling you and Percy out), you apparently suspect LrdWhyt (when it protected Percy), and now with steam picking up on Baby Spice you suspect her.

How many scum do you think we have out there???

Top 2 right now Thor.

Yes...how dare I have a scumread from yesterday and then three people I'm willing to vote to lynch. Obvious scum is...obvious?

I thin there are 2 scum left because the setup is open, am I only ever allowed to have two suspects?

As for my top two suspects, I'll refer to myself from Thursday of last week;

I want to lynch either BabySpice or IAI today. They are both pretty dang scummy.

[Thor665]

But yet instead of pushing for one of these lynches, you hop on the Percy-competing one of LrdWhyt? Why not try to get your top suspects out first???

Because I knew there was no support for a lynch of you. (though I have been trying to build that groundswell)
Instead I went after Baby Spice.
When there was no support for that I changed to LrdWhyt and immediately when support for Baby Spice reappeared I went back to her (opportunistically as you put it).

Suspicions don't matter if you can't get a lynch to happen.

[Thor665]

Can I have a list of your town reads Thor?

Elmo, furcolow, and jasonT are the obvious towns.
Sotty7, Benmage, Percy, and Locke, are town reads.
Mina and KaleiÐoscøpe are in a middle cloud wherein Mina is being felt more town probably because I find her playstyle amusing and Kscope is being felt more scum because he has embraced his hammer personality.

Why do you need this list of all my reads? (especially since half of them I'm pretty sure I've already explicitly stated in thread)

[Thor665]

Do you still find my vote hopping scummy, and if so why?

You also never addressed my replies to you vis'a'vi how many suspects I had and how many scum I thought were in the game. Hot air, or was that going somewhere?

[Thor665]

So, who are your town reads?

[Thor665]

tl:dr - it's a reply to Minawall, it shall be a lot of quote boxes. My apologies, it's her fault

Thor, why did you settle for a compromise vote on Lrdwhyt so early in the day? Now wasn't the time to decide to switch to whoever had the biggest wagon. If you really think you've found scum, shouldn't you have been trying to sell the I am Innocent or Baby Spice lynches to us, instead of just going with the flow?

I am trying to sell IAI (just as he's trying to sell me ) and I think there's a reason neither of us are voting the other, and that's because we each realize at this stage it's a wasted vote. IAI's case hinges on me as Percy's partner and my case on him just lacks any real support - therefore it's a wasted vote.

I also think I gave the BS wagon a fair amount of time to gather support - "early" is pretty subjective here.

Also, what was your opinion of I am Innocent's meltdown and self-vote early on Day One? Did it strengthen or weaken your scumread of him?

That actually weakened it, but only exceedingly slightly. I tend to consider self votes an anti-town tell for the most part with town underlying veins. His was extra weird to consider because of the point in his wagon he opted to self-vote, the timing almost made it seem false to me "hey look, I self-voted, *not* scum here, amirite?" but some of the pissiness felt real. In the end I decided it was a big ball of WIFOM and mostly just stuck to the weak cases + constant bellowing of how right he is as scum play inherently and a viable case without sweating the self-vote.

For the record, I think I am Innocent has been suffering from a horrible case of confirmation bias today, but his trying to lock you into give town reads out of his conviction that you're struggling for suspects because he's nailed the scumteam has pretty much clinched that he's town for me. It's just an utterly townish mindset, particularly from an inexperienced player.

Maybe, except that my strong town reads were already out there and i'd agreed with the Lrdwhyt wagon long before I switched to it. Basically I feel that for someone who is so absolutely convinced I'm scum he's really not following anything I post. Also, he's mudslinging like a madman at me and drops accusations after making them as though he really doesn't care about them, but rather about how bad they'll make me look from the initial blather. Really feels like case padding, and I feel the same way about how he's treating Percy.

Can you explain your read on Elmo for me? Truth be told, his play today has completely nullified my earlier townread. First he was unhelpful and flippant and brushed off of my questions early on (he reminded me a bit of Mikujin popping up out of nowhere in

ACoK

, after having ignored pages of discussion, just to make a snide comment about douchebags), and since then he hasn't taken a single firm stance. But what I find really off is that he hasn't even reacted to the fact that his one major scum read (Red Coyote) was wrong.

Uf da, you really have to pull in a Mikajin reference?

Let's sum up his Day 2 stuff for towniness very briefly; he's not on the Percy wagon and seems to want to think about it, consider alternatives, and discuss his thoughts. Instead of hopping on the certain wagon +1 *or* championing either of the viable alternate wagons that have sprung up he wants to *think* some more. Make sense now?

[Thor665]

Day1 Phase 2 Percy Nikanor and Mina voted Baby Spice

Day2 Phase 1 Percy and Thor voted Baby Spice

And up until I and Percy voted her Day 2 she was a scum read for you, so...yes, super weird that we would have a scum read on her.

[Thor665]

I'd actually also love to see which of the two top wagons IAI would prefer to support presuming he can stop screaming about me and Percy for a few moments.

I'm actually pretty torn right now because Benmage's actions on Lrdwhyt were awesome and telling and I'm loving how he no longer looks rage tunneled. I'm super stoked about getting either of the top wagons lynched.

[Thor665]

I'd actually also love to see which of the two top wagons IAI would prefer to support presuming he can stop screaming about me and Percy for a few moments.

I would probably vote Baby Spice just to incriminate the pair of you further.

So...you'd vote for BS who you believe is town because by doing so and getting a flip of town on BS it would incriminate me and Percy (presumabey because we're voting town - something town players never do I guess)?
Do these things make sense in your head before you type them?

Also, if you want the Percy wagon to come back shouldn't you, I dunno, actually bother to explain again why it's good or maybe why the BS/LW wagons are bad or something? You're seeming really passive aggressive about this.

[Thor665]

@IAI

[Thor665]

At any point Percy would appear to be a viable lynch I'd be voting/hammering him no questions asked. I think BS is a town village idiot and therefore a mislynch. However as our lynch one deadline draws near I have no problem switching my vote to ensure the lynch

especially since I think it will further implicate Percy

.

That said if I recall (since I'm on my phone) BS was also someone I named undesirable to have around lylo. So its all wins in my book.

Wait, you think BS is town but you would be willing to vote to ensure her lynch... this really reads as a red flag to me

Ooooih, thanks jason, now I think I know where IAI got his logic from.

Also, BM has openly stated at least twice a desire to not have BS at endgame and has also indicated a preference for both a LW and Percy lynch. It's really not that odd of a thing to say.

[Thor665]

Yes Jason, I am a Communist.

Thor I said the samething as IAI and I am eager to use the additional evidence....how many mislynches you gonna let Percy lead before you wake up?

How many?

Comith IAI it is time to vote BS Percy set himself up for an easy switch in his next up comming post, and we cannot allow further wigglage..
unvote vote Baby Spice

This is me benmage wanting to lynch scum Percy, voting town BS whatsup.

Derpy da-derp - didn't check previews.

Quite frankly I still don't see Percy as either an evil mastermind nor a leader of mislynches (wasn't he against the RC wagon?). If he's scum for the reasons you're pegging him on he's not all that brilliant and will probably slip up again. This is starting to feel more like you 'no lynch' shenanigans yesterday. Is there an actual strategy behind taking your ball home with you or is it you just get frustrated and pout? Clearly the Percy case isn't selling as is, if it's so great you ought to be able to redefine it to show people the logic better, or you ought to be able to move on and do something to perhaps help show his scumminess.

I personally disagree that if BS flips town it proves Percy is particularly any more or less scummy then anyone else on the wagon unless you can point to specific scumminess in how he set up the case on BS. Can you?

[Thor665]

Thor.... you skimming this thread?? How did you miss my point, but see IAIs hrmmmmmmm......

Because I check up on my games by going to Bookmarks, clicking through all the new post links in a series of tabs, and then working through them one after another.

Also, it was jason's point, not IAI's point. Gosh are you skimming?

[Thor665]

Percy and I are the two most experienced people here, true or false?

The most experienced should be leading, or trying to if they're town. (Not obviously blind to others logic) true or false?

Okay, so are you accusing Percy of leading mislynches or not leading town enough considering his experience?

You said now you see where IAI got his stance from. I.e. you missed my first point.

You mean back when you first said it at post 771?
I would say it's not that I didn't read it, but that by the time I was discussing it with IAI I didn't recollect the exact language you used and realize it as the same language he was using. That didn't happen till I read it again in jason's post, which is why I noted it then.

[Thor665]

Where's KaleiÐoscøpe, he should want in on this.

[Thor665]

Is that the new hip thing to do? I'm usually behind in fads.

[Thor665]

Thor, does your partner not want to be on a townie lynch or something? Or just on that townie lynch with his partner on it too?

Thor is scum because he's voting for Baby Spice
Percy is scum because he's not voting for Baby Spice.
They are scum together because they don't want to be on the same wagon as each other despite being that way for a lengthy stretch of the day thus far.
I Am Brilliant as well as Innocent.

Dude, you make my head hurt and this type of inane double standard does not fill me with ringing visions of your towniness.

^^^^^Wow scummiest post of this century. This is Lynch 1. Even if it goes through quickly, why/how would it affect your read on Lrd?? You’ve been pushing BS for 2 days. You should be jumping up and down and ecstatic about your 2 day lead suspect being lynched for whatever reason that have convinced others.

I'll preface this by saying that a lot of Mina's last post to Benmage resonated with me.

That said...I actually think Benmage has a decent point here. Earlier in the same post Percy was talking about how long and solid he has been on BS and now that the wagon is finally getting some good steam under it he wants to unvote to re-read LrdWhyt? Something is a little odd with this.

@Percy - I second the question about you being uncomfortable with your wagon mates, who and why?
Also, why did it take L-1 to make you uneasy and really wanting to do the re-read, what about the other day when he was the top competing wagon with LrdWhyt - why didn't that get you more focused on doing a re-read?

[Thor665]

Why am I panicking?

Meta?

Furc's recent posts have looked so opportunistic and conscious of popular opinion that I'd rather that Furcolow and Lrdwhyt were the lynches.

As you're advancing this concept have you gone back to look at furc's interactions with Dry-fit?

[Thor665]

FURCOLOW, NOT EVERYONE WHO MENTIONS YOU AS A SUSPECT IS SCUM!

Argggh, I'm in capsrage and invariably the juxtaposition of that to Fate's playstyle will get Benmage voting me! Abort, abort!

[Thor665]

I ask this again, to you and Thor. How many mislynches will you allow?

How many will you vote in support of?

[Thor665]

It's not deflection, it's pointing out how silly the question is to begin with.

How many mislynches will I "allow"? First off, I'm not sure that I'm the sole force that dictates who is lynched and whether that lynch is a mislynch or a scum lynch.

Second, the basis of your argument for how we're mislynching is based on a belief that Percy is scum and that BS is town all while you vote BS which is just three kinds of silly.

Therefore, at the very least, if this is a mislynch and it's bad that I'm allowing it then it must be equally culpable on your part for supporting/allowing it as well. I was curious to see how you'd respond to the question which is why I basically turned it around and fed it back at you, and your basic answer was 'deflection' and 'as many as it takes' so how about we consider those my answers as well.

[Thor665]

@Percy - I officially hate your picture of paperwork, that's actually the scummiest thing I think you've done this game. Was anyone even claiming you didn't have paperwork?

Where the heck is this furc case coming from? Should I blame Mina? People should go back and read his interactions with Dry-fit, those are not scumbuddies.

[Thor665]

Thor: What's the case on babyspice?

There's only one? I shall presume you're asking for mine.

The case on Baby Spice is;

She is scum.

...
...
...oh, fine.

The longer case on Baby Spice is;

Mongoose (BS in a previous life) pushed a terrible case on Benmage and basically was misrepping him within the first few pages
Made multiple claims of a playstyle that is built for scum.
Stays middle of the road (and admits to such) for the entire game - at replacement defends Dry-fit pretty obviously.
BS picks up the Benmage lynch wagon again, and again does it for terrible reasons and follows Mongoose's misrep logic.
Defense of hinky as =/= scummy.
I'll add strong agreement with Sotty(?) who (I think) was the one who first pointed out BS's awkwardness around the Mina/Sotty/LrdWhyt affair.

Also, I recommend a decent read of IAI.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

That one is sigged as pure win for the foreseeable future.

[Thor665]

I'll ask the mod about it and see if we can cut a deal

[Thor665]

You didn't defend Dry-fit, Mongoose did. So your slot is guilty of that.
The play style claim was also from Mongoose, so at least we both agree your slot is scummy.

The hinky thing is to me like those players who go "gosh, that's interesting, isn't it interesting, by the way, it's interesting which has nothing to do with being scummy or towny just generally interesting" You're digging for mud while staying on a fence - I find that interesting and hinky at the same time.

Mostly just scummy though.

[Thor665]

Please provide games where TownThor has joked about being scum ASAP.

Do you think I actually track what games I make certain types of jokes in?

[Thor665]

Quite frankly I'd be more worried about me if I could provide that info - what do you expect me to do, read through every town game I've ever had looking at every bad joke I've ever made? I'm narcissistic, sure, but even I'm not that excited by myself.

[Thor665]

It's actually the beard that has the charm, not me. Common mistake.

Do you honestly remember all the jokes you tell? If you thought I had that sort of recall why would I, in a game with you, if I was scum, do the exact sort of joke that had you strongly suspect me of being scum? So, at the very least, you have to believe I'm either an idiot scum or am at least honest about not recalling my jokes.

[Thor665]

I'd make a joke here but I think it would upset Sotty.

[Thor665]

Okay, you're still creeping me out.

As in you think it's a scum tell? Or is creepy=interesting=hinky?
While you're at it, please refer to jason's post and tell me that didn't deserve a joke to be made immediately after it. Ben and I are softclaiming?

@Emp - no response to my BS case? You asked for it for a reason yes, I like to feel special and responded to - it keeps me feeling important.
Also, is your Percy case really - he's scummy, he hasn't been lynched, so scum must be preventing the lynch? Couldn't that just as easily be redefined as the case isn't that good and scum are not pushing it through because they don't want to be on it? Your conclusion is not the only one available from the evidence. What do you think is the crowning part of the Percy case that makes him deserving of a lynch because he's clearly scum?

[Thor665]

That redefines things.

The worst part is that now IAI looks town.

Bah, it's stupid early in the morning and I'm currently sleep deprived. I'm going to crash out, watch the FL/FL State game tomorrow, and then see if I can re-evaluate my reads. My immediate reaction to Elmo's posting is one of town response, and frankly I still stand by furc being obv. town, and I'll add I don't see scum bothering with a hammer on a scumbuddy while calling it sheeping because there reads are wrong this game. Passing the buck happens on scum hammering town, not the other way around.

[Thor665]

WTFLOLOMG

Did everyone just go batSmurf insane here in the last few hours?

Okay - so the case on furc is that he opportunistically leapt on both scum wagons and/or it's a decent policy lynch because he's furc.
I'll ignore all of furc's cases because he's furc, I'll just presume they don't make much sense.
We still seem to have some Percy hatred in the air, but it's coming from Benmage so I think we can ignore it for the time being.

@Benmage - have you looked at the early Dry-fit/furc interactions? Are you calling that distancing and bussing?

Vote: Empking

Last minute Percy lynch and asking for a BS case without responding to it in any way looks like a good option to me.

[Thor665]

thor, do you know of any games in which i won for the town in lylo?

None spring readily to mind, but I could believe it happened.

I am actually a good player if you get over the Smurf that I type.

Thor has my back

For the record furc, I do have your back because I believe your interplay with Dry-fit was pretty clearly not distancing/bussing. Please don't presume this as an endorsement of your playstyle - I do think you're better then many of the classic VIs and I'll also add I've seen a lot of improvement from you and I imagine that eventually you'll not be considered a VI player at all. (or, at least, maybe no more then I am ) However, your OMGUS rapid fire voting style is stupid hard to read and, I think, a detriment to town. Benmage isn't being scummy or stupid, he's just being...I dunno, narrow-minded? Too passionate? Something like that.

Why is this scummy? Why is the futile try for a Percy lynch scummy? You mention it being a "last minute" attempt; is this important to your argument? (If it isn't I won't waste your time grilling you over it.)

If the try for a Percy lynch was, in your own head, futile, why did you try it at all?
Frankly, I don't think it was that futile - both Benmage and IAI's votes for BS were pretty weak and it is not a leap at all to suggest that if they got some extra Percy support they would spring back.
I do think it's scummy to ask a question for no discernable reason - I would consider it white noise and attempting to look like you were considering the BS case without actually putting any effort into it.
Also, I basically have pointed out/asked you about this twice now and your reply is 'is it scummy I asked about it' without ever just explaining why you asked about it - what's up with that? (by the way, in addition to the actual question here this is indeed an invitation to explain why you asked about it)

[Thor665]

So you hadn't read the thread yet but you pegged me as one of the top problem slots to get a read on? What made me and furc so well known for being difficult to read?

[Thor665]

I asked you about the BS case to get a better read on youself because I (correctly) guessed that my reading the thread wouldn't help (too much) in that respect.

You were just a random pick out of the players that I haven't heard of you.

Your first post asked furc and I specific questions.
Apparently I was "randomly" chosen from all of the players you didn't know because you didn't think you'd be able to get a good read on me/them?
Your second post puts every player in a town to scum spectrum.
What happened to all of the other players that I was randomly chosen from among that you would have a hard time reading?

[Thor665]

Note my case on BS - Ben was a chosen misrep lynch attempt by both Mongoose and BS. I guess it could have been a really sad attempt at bussing, but I doubt it. Plus, Benscum wouldn't have been sounding off loud and proud about his Percyscum thoughts (that would have made him *gasp* wrong!) and finally Benscum is going to bus BS by saying he thinks he's town and is trying to get a lynch on Percy because of it?

If Ben is scum then Ben is an idiot.
So are his buddies.
I have 95% evidence that suggest to me Ben is not an idiot.
Mostly it's because he has Shakespeare mentioned in his sig.

[Thor665]

@Emp - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 5#p2643525

[Thor665]

I am going to re-read this entire game, and make a post

i am considering just proxying my vote to benmage or elmo

If Benmage didn't already have it, then this might have needed to become my new sig.

@Emp - I never said that anyone would be impossible to read. I said more difficult. Where are you coming from with this?
Also, let's look at this for a second, you claim that some of the players in the middle section of your list (let's say there were 4 of us for the sake of this thought) were players you thought would be difficult for you to read. So you randomly ask one of them a question, randomly decide the question should be on the case he's trying to sell, get the response, decide he's more town for it, and never comment on it again, and then had the subject of that case flip scum while you went and joined the alternate wagon to that scum wagon, and none of these coincidences were connected in any way?

Oh dear gawd - wagon needs diesel fuel added right now.

[Thor665]

@Elmo - you've practically not given a substantive post since the lynch, is there a strategy here or are you just lost?

[Thor665]

Isn't voting Mina for dithering a bit like voting Furcolow for OMGUSing? I dunno, I agree Mina looks bad but she just doesn't feel that scummy to me. Meanwhile we have Empking who is most assuredly acting dicey around important wagons and whose predecessors did the same. He's even been bouncing around today trying to be wherever it looks like an alternate wagon is going to spring up.

[Thor665]

@Emp - Percy and BS.

@KScope - I have no idea where you're standing on lynches right now. There was a point you agreed with Benmage that Emp was the last scum and that furc needed to die, and now you're back on Percy. Why Percy today and what happened to your Empking as scum read?

[Thor665]

Thor; How am I acting dicey around Percy's wagon?

When you tried to resuscitate it without even commenting on the leading wagon of the day?
I dunno - that strikes me as odd. I'm probably being dumb though, feel free to explain how it's normal.

[Thor665]

Mina's last post looks so town.
Empking's last post looks so scum.

Please don't make me have to evolve into Benmage as my next evolutionary step of meta.

[Thor665]

Wagon analysis should come after the lynch not before and I did comment that I leant scum on BS.

Yeah, and he was in the same category as me (a player you say you knew you'd have a hard time reading) and jasonT (a player I have no idea how you had a scummy/null read on). You softballed him and didn't address the wagon other then asking me to state the case.

Thor; You consider blatant, blatant "I'm town, totally town. See how I'm randomly calling myself town." a town tell? Why?

No, I consider; 'hey look, we have 7 mislynches, here's a list of who we shouldn't lynch, now let's lynch everyone else (including me) and we almost assuredly win automatically and if not those people on the 'not lynch' list should be able to muddle through in endgame" a town tell. Also, I actually agree that if the case on her is legit she'd have to be pretty derpy town when it comes to understanding how to bus/defend her buddies.

At the very least I consider it less scummy then 'If I was scum I'd be on Percy right now...never mind that I was on Percy yesterday and was on Percy for a period of time today.'

[Thor665]

EBWOP - actually, I stand corrected. You weren't on Percy today, you were on furc. The rest is still legit.

[Thor665]

2. Scum would know that BS was scum and would've voted him rather than voting for a wagon that had no chance to grow.

Mina didn't vote BS.
You're voting Mina.
Thoughts?

[Thor665]

@KScope - you are correct, please ignore me I am a moron with a charming beard.

[Thor665]

I just realized how appropriate Mina's avatar is considering the butterfly and flame motifs.

I think Mina's requests towards getting the plan discussed by Emp, Percy, Elmo and KScope is pretty silly (especially the Percy one, terrible question of WIFOM nightmare is terrible). I'm actually in agreement on the Locke question though, and wouldn't mind his thoughts. For a townish player I want more of him ripping off his elbow pad and bellowing from rooftops.

I also hate Elmo now

[Thor665]

Thor:

What's the difference between bad and scummy RE: Mina for you?

Huh?

Presuming I used the word bad as explicitly different from scummy then I would say I was calling a play bad (e.g. anti-town/stupid/undesirable/unoptimal/et al). I would use scummy while calling an action a scumtell insomuch as I think scum would do it more often then town. If you can quote where I drew the distinction I could probably clarify more but probably I was saying I thought a play wasn't a good town play but that I didn't see it as obvious scum play.

[Thor665]

That explanation feels self-contained. The "bad" is the way her votes and attitudes were flowing (the dithering).

[Thor665]

Have you ever seen ScumMina or are we talking about a bunch of town games here?

I've only ever played with Mina as town. She dithers as town. Unless she doesn't dither as scum (which I doubt) all that shows is dithering is a normal part of her meta and is not the most optimal place to build a case and when I read Locke's case that's what I see - 'Mina didn't make solid commitments to reads'.

I also hate Elmo now

WhadIdo?

You keep checking out of the game. Stop that or replace out.

[Thor665]

Mina - there is nothing at this stage to be super freaked about. Emp was the lynch today barring someone claiming scum and self-voting. Emp is either scum and we've won, or he isn't and there will be *plenty* of time in this game for everyone to ask 3,000 questions..

[Thor665]

Vote: Mina

This does have to happen.

[Thor665]

2 lynches.

Lynch obvious, no way it isn't happening choice.
If wrong, have all day of discussion for secondary choice.

[Thor665]

I am not old school because I am eternally young, but sure - I'll play,

My vote for Mina would pretty much be either sheeping Locke's case, or for the reasons I noted in 1128 - and is probably a vague and uncertain combination of both. If she's scum, huzzah for our side, if she's town she has to go because we'll be having this debate before every single lynch otherwise.

[Thor665]

French disease?

[Thor665]

If you vote for Thor we can pretend this never happened and be BBF's

I'm right here in the room, I can hear you, y'know.

Nul's case is ridiculous. That said, Nul's case looks really townish because what replace-in scum is going to go through that much effort for one mislynch when he has like 2-3 decent sheep options to just grind into. Feel better about the slot now.

[Thor665]

Did I just read wagon analysis from furcolow? Oy!

@Percy - read on Nul?

[Thor665]

Well, Nul/Elmo to be precise.

[Thor665]

C-c-c-c-combobreaker.

Egads sir - thy point was made eight posts ago or something.

[Thor665]

@Sotty - feel free to zap his case, as it is silly, but lay off frustration about whether or not he did the math for your join date correctly. There is zero scum advantage for him to misrepresent it so all you've found is he's a little loose and sloppy - and sadly that's not a scumtell.

@Null - I will repeat - your case is made, please stop repeating it ad nauseum.

@furc - jason is town, you also can please stop.

@Mina - how's the Percy case/questions going?

[Thor665]

Because I'm trying to figure out who are last scum is between Mina and Thor atm.

We've got two lynches available last I checked. How about we lynch Mina - if she's not scum I'll probably be fine being lynched next because I'll have no clue who is.

[Thor665]

Are you saying that yesterday, I was your number two suspect after Empking? So had Empking flipped town, you were fully intending to vote for me today--it was only that Empking looked so much scummier that I was townish by comparison?

That's basically true. I was convinced Emp was scum to the point I don't think I was even considering who my lynch preference after him was. Coming into today I probably could have gone Elmo, but there was so much furor about you and your only defenders were me and sorta Sotty which is not stopping a lynch, so I say lynch you and see where we're at. If you flip town I'd probably vaguely grunt at KScope as next, since I'm now back to town on Elmo/Nul. Frankly I think we're down to the last dregs here and I think whoever the scum is is very busted and it's just a matter of lynching the tiny handful of actual suspects we have

[Thor665]

Good, Sotty, go with that.

Look at the number of pretty assured town we have. Look at the number of suspects you have. This is not hard math. If I am that big of a distraction/confusion to town I *should* be lynched. That's half the argument for Mina now - she's potential scum and she's suspicious. We've got a hella'ton of lynches available. Let's pop the players who are super suspicious and either nail scum or narrow the field. Scum lost this game ages ago, we're just mopping up here.

[Thor665]

So, if Mina flips scum I'm allowed to mock Sotty, yes?

[Thor665]

@Mina - perhaps I am checking out, if you ask again I'll actually bother to go through with your apparent desire to have me write out super ginormus walls of mega-death opinions and respond to all the questions/concerns you just posited (though I happily endorse my right not to make it remotely as long as you're going on about because I just don't do wall posting cases anymore and haven't since my very first few games). But, before that I want you to consider the basic logic I'm coming from in the world o' being checked out;

Look at your tier system.

You have 3 strong town reads
You have 6 potential suspects.

With 10 players alive scum will get *2 kills*
Town will get 6 lynches.
It is a math problem now and I actually feel better about both furc and Percy than you do. So I think we should just let the lynch line roll because that will get us the win without walls of text, without stress, and without WIFOM insanity from looking for one scum in a pool of 10.

Again, if you demand it I will do your wall justice.
But consider the above, consider the suspect pool, and realize that though I'm not exactly setting any scumhunting standards of excellence here that it's really not a thing.

[Thor665]

I'll assault your post tomorrow - or at least the bulk of it.

[Thor665]

Okay, today I'm going to delve back into my old PbP and wall post mentality that I haven't really used since forever and have been pretty happy with that decision. That said, I was a wall poster in a previous life so we'll see how this one goes (also, unlike Mina, I can actually produce a wall without needing three days to emotionally prep myself )

TL: DR - We should lynch Mina as the first lynch of the day.

Spoiler: Crouching Mina Hidden Wall

So, if Mina flips scum I'm allowed to mock Sotty, yes?

Sotty has had me as a low-grade suspect all game, and you haven't attacked me once all game. Is this joke sincere, sarcastic, or just an attempt to look innocent? Are you really saying you'd deserve credit if I were scum when you'd have been the very LAST person to catch on?

Hello super sensitive. the joke was about how long it took Sotty to come around to a very obvious and very needed lynch. I'm pretty sure Sotty got it. I'm not claiming credit, nor would I deserve it.

Look at the number of pretty assured town we have. Look at the number of suspects you have. This is not hard math. If I am that big of a distraction/confusion to town I *should* be lynched. That's half the argument for Mina now - she's potential scum and

she's suspicious

. We've got a hella'ton of lynches available. Let's pop the players who are

super suspicious

and either nail scum or narrow the field. Scum lost this game ages ago, we're just mopping up here.

All right, that does it. You're saying you find me "super suspicious"? I'm calling you on this.

Never mind the fact that it's pretty clear I'm inferring that everyone who is super suspicious should be lynched and have also clearly stated that I don't have any real suspects after you - but, sure, let's consider the evidence and go over it. The important thing to keep in mind is that all of these quotes come from a universe where the competing wagons were Mina and Empking;

Isn't voting Mina for dithering a bit like voting Furcolow for OMGUSing? I dunno, I agree Mina looks bad but she just doesn't feel that scummy to me. Meanwhile we have Empking who is most assuredly acting dicey around important wagons and whose predecessors did the same. He's even been bouncing around today trying to be wherever it looks like an alternate wagon is going to spring up.

I don't consider your dithering to be a super scumtell. I consider Empking to be *more* scummy than what you've done. It's almost as though I'm saying Empking is a better lynch than Mina.

Mina's last post

looks so town

.
Empking's last post looks so scum.

Please don't make me have to evolve into Benmage as my next evolutionary step of meta.

Your last post looks townish.
Empking's last post looks scummy.
It's almost as though I'm saying Empking is a better lynch than Mina.

No, I consider; 'hey look, we have 7 mislynches, here's a list of who we shouldn't lynch, now let's lynch everyone else (including me) and we almost assuredly win automatically and if not those people on the 'not lynch' list should be able to muddle through in endgame"

a town tell

. Also, I actually agree that if the case on her is legit she'd have to be pretty derpy town when it comes to understanding how to bus/defend her buddies.

At the very least I consider it less scummy then 'If I was scum I'd be on Percy right now...never mind that I was on Percy yesterday and was on Percy for a period of time today.'

You advance a plan of lynching everyone who is suspect (including yourself) and I *agree to that plan* (and have continued to do so today oddly enough...)
I end the commentary by noting how I consider what you've done as less scummy than Empking.
It's almost as though I'm saying Empking is a better lynch than Mina.

Seriously. You don't just seem to suspect Empking more than me (although I left in the last line of that third quote for objectivity's sake). You seem to strongly feel that

I'm town

. Now you're saying you found my behaviour suspicious all along...but you were just sooooooo much more certain of Empking that you couldn't even

believe

that I'd be scum.

I don't think I ever indicated that I had a town read on you - I pretty clearly indicated i had more of a town read on you

than Empking who I wanted to lynch first

. You're intentionally taking commentary where I indicate that I'd rather lynch Emp before you and somehow suggesting that it means I consider you obvious town - which I do not and never said. None of your above quotes from me say I consider you town, they say I consider the things you are doing as townish and that is a big difference. Let's go back in time (one day prior to all those quotes) where I did up a suspect list to make IAI happy;

Can I have a list of your town reads Thor?

Elmo, furcolow, and jasonT are the obvious towns.
Sotty7, Benmage, Percy, and Locke, are town reads.
Mina and KaleiÐoscøpe are in a middle cloud wherein Mina is being felt more town probably because I find her playstyle amusing and Kscope is being felt more scum because he has embraced his hammer personality.

Why do you need this list of all my reads? (especially since half of them I'm pretty sure I've already explicitly stated in thread)

What;s that? Super town Mina is one of my bottom suspects? Empking was one of my chosen scum? The world has ended! Yes - you were more town than Empking. No, that does not mean I'm not allowed to want to lynch you.

Also, you never answered this:

My vote for Mina would pretty much be

either sheeping Locke's case

, or for the reasons I noted in 1128 - and is probably a vague and uncertain combination of both. If she's scum, huzzah for our side, if she's town she has to go because we'll be having this debate before every single lynch otherwise.

[1]Okay, maybe I can buy that you're willing to lynch me in spite of your D2 town read simply to remove a distraction or get information, although it's not an argument I'm a fan of. But what happened to this:

I've only ever played with Mina as town. She dithers as town. Unless she doesn't dither as scum (which I doubt) all that shows is dithering is a normal part of her meta and

is not the most optimal place to build a case and when I read Locke's case that's what I see - 'Mina didn't make solid commitments to reads'

.

[2] It seemed that you didn't like Locke's case much at the time, but now you're listing it as one of your primary reasons for voting me.

I'll blame Null for burying it. Okay, let's answer;

1. I never said I had a Day 2 town read on you - get over your misrepping self. (I'll add that even if I did have a Day 2 town read, it would have had to have been pretty strong for me not to be down with lynching you now anyway)
2. Yes, because *other* people like the case and we're running low on potential suspects. Do you remember when you were down with being lynched as a top potential suspect? I do.

Please explain why. I want lots and lots of words, beyond "sheeping Locke's case," which you never liked in the first place.

Write a case on me. Explain your motives and thought process behind your change of heart in longwinded detail, like I did for Percy, and why you think the towntells you'd noticed yesterday are no longer convincing. Share your opinions on the other players in the game as well. It doesn't have to be 3500 words long, but a couple of paragraphs would be nice.

You want all my reads again? Yeeesh.

Okay, my "motive" behind my "change of heart" is that first off - it wasn't a change of heart because even you were able to find a quote where I agreed with your lynch plan, thought it was good, and was okay with you being on it (along with other players I actually find *more* town than you, and that should have been pretty clear as well)

Your big hangup is, again, that you seem to think because I called you townish and wanted Emp lynched first that it somehow equates to me never wanting to see you lynched which is total poppycock. If we lynch you and you flip town I'm probably going to somehow magically be able to look at the list of players and figure out another one whom I consider a top suspect - THAT'S HOW THE GAME IS PLAYED. All of these thoughts have been explained by me before, but apparently because I can explain them in two sentences it somehow makes the thoughts harder to understand/difficult to find. So, I suppose, the only answer is to repeat them eight times in a giant post because...reasons.

So, in summation, I can't discuss my change of heart because it's very clear there wasn't one.

My opinions on the other players would be summed up thusly;

Sotty7, furcolow, and jasonT are the obvious towns. - furc and jason are cleared by interactions with the dead scum and if Sotty is scum I'll have egg all over my face because she is clearly scumhunting around and trying to get clear reads.

Null, Benmage, Percy, and IAI are my solid town reads (sorry Ben ) Null dropped down a level from earlier because Elmo's "aw shucks, giving up" attitude looked like scum with a busted team who didn't want to play anymore. However Null's replace in was not very scumlike, as I noted earlier, and his positions helped elevate Sotty into obv. town status because the odds of this slot being scum are much higher than her and this slot just attacked her. Ben and IAI are on there for the way they voted BS, and Percy has just felt town throughout to me. Percy and Null are probably the pair I'd be most willing to lynch from this level (apparently I have to say that because otherwise I'll have changes of heart I'll have to explain)

KaleiÐoscøpe is probably who I'd try to lynch next, but I honestly feel terrible about the read and he's mostly there just for having a playstyle I find sort of annoying and a bit for the tunnel focus on Percy after even Benmage realized that wasn't an optimal lynch (and if Benmage can untunnel than everyone else should be able to)

Mina is who I want lynched.

Maybe it's just that I'm more prone to town reads than scum reads. But normally, when I have a gut town read on someone, it stays even after my top suspect is lynched, although I might have doubts. And if I change my mind, I can usually explain what caused the change.

Thank you for applying your meta to me I guess? This doesn't follow - you don't play like furc does - does that automatically make furc scum every game? Also, this all stems from a false belief that I called you town as opposed to calling for an Emp lynch over a you lynch.

Instead, you've gone from steadfastly defending me and seeming passionately against my lynch, to trying to egg people onto my wagon.

I'm not sure I'd call it passionate (though that is romantic and heroic sounding for me ) - but yes, I have done exactly this.

Worse, you're not even making a case for my guilt, just trying to tempt them by saying, "Hey, she's a suspect, and we have aaaaaaaaall the lynches we need, so why think it through?" And part of your argument is that you and Sotty are my only two defenders, when

you and Sotty are half of the players voting for me right now

. (In all fairness, though, IAI and Kscope wouldn't be sorry to see me gone...at least, if they were still reading the game. <_<)

IAI is really unlikely town. We can do KScope after or before me, and we *do* have aaaaaaaall the lynches we need. Town doesn't need to engage real scumhunting again until we're down to the last day with MYLO and *TWO TOWN LYNCHES AVAILABLE* That's super awesome easy mode for town, and *that's* when town needs to pay attention. Right now town needs to deal with the chaff that could make that mylo dangerous. The case for your guilt is that it fits that you could be scum and that lots of players here don't consider you very obvious town - and that's ALL the case that is needed at this stage. If you are town you should recognize that you are a mylo liability and endorse your coming death because there is no way scum will NK you.

And you're saying that if I flip town, you'd be totally okay with being lynched yourself, even though you weren't even on my original lynch list. (In all fairness, that's not something I'd expect to hear from scum.) You have no clue who the last scum is, so hey, let other players make the decisions in endgame!

Thor, be honest. Are you doing the same thing you did in

A Clash of Kings

Mafia, in which you checked out at the end and stopped wanting to think things through, yes or no?

Already covered this - but, yeah, probably. The thing is that it's pretty clear that we are in a situation where town should just zip through some lynches and not wear itself out. As for me being on the potential lynch list - I'm saying that because of how hot Sotty is about me. If I'm in her top two than I'm probably a liability and should go, and frankly I think we're within 1-2 lynches of a win anyway.

Look, I understand that the town's situation is really good, that I'm a decent lynch by PoE, that Locke's case almost made me cry, and that mislynching me wouldn't be the end of the world. But simply out of respect to me, can you try to give a Smurf right now?

You are explaining my case on you right now while still acting like my case is unreasonable. Why is that? Either you should understand my logic, or you should find it bad, but if you find it bad how can you disagree with it here? I do give a Smurf, and that's why you need to be lynched.

I know you're really hoping that this game will end with my death, so you'd rather save your breath. But I'm putting a ton of work into this game. At least do me the courtesy of making a suspect list, taking a stand on every player in the game, thinking things through critically, and writing an actual case on me. Sotty and Percy did me that courtesy. Furthermore, if you're town, then your play today is guaranteeing that the town won't win until at least Day Four, because by being so blasé, you're serving yourself up on a silver platter as a mislynch. And if the killer is someone unlikely like I am Innocent, your lynch might make the difference between a win and a loss.

Yes, a big delay until Day 4...when town will still have 2 lynches to use on Day 5 with only *four suspects available*. On Day 5, town could flip some coins and still win half the time - and that's not counting the four lynches leading into the affair. And if town doesn't win until Day 4...so what? This is really just starting to look more like scum angling of 'don't lynch me

juuust

yet' and I am not getting happy-day town vibes from it. Your arguement is that we shouldn't lynch you because we might win a day earlier? Big whoop.

Also, if you're willing to get lynched, think of it this way. Today is your last chance to get all your reads out! Why not make the effort?

My reads, such as they were, were already out there. I don't need a wall to make them.

Yesterday, I wouldn't have even considered lynching you. I probably trusted you as much as (or even more than) jason on gut. Now I'm almost considering moving you to my top tier, simply because of how disinterested you seem.

Oh noes, you thought I was town and now you want to lynch me. Terrible! Wait, what was your issue with me again?

Wooosh, there, done. I basically said what I've already said earlier in the game but I used more words - hope that helps someone.

[Thor665]

Also posting lots is better than posting nothing!

Yeah, but posting lots doesn't equate to a town tell either just as posting nothing isn't an assured scumtell.

[Thor665]

I'm already late for the Christmas party now, so I won't write a huge response to Thor (some parts of his wallpost looked townish, and others made me want to dismember him, particularly because of the snide tone

Dismembering me for snideness may or may not be appropriate.
That said - there's a reason I was being snide. Your demanded wall post was functionally asking me the same question six different ways and that after I had already answered it once - so I then had to type up a wall of saying the same thing over and over and that takes me a touch out of my happy-do-dappy usual personality. There's a reason i don't wall it up as much anymore - it keeps me beloved of all.

and his refusal to acknowledge that if you don't show your thought process in the thread, people who aren't mind-readers are going to assume that saying X looks town and Y looks scum means that X looks town, not that X is

only

townish-looking compared to Y, so stop throwing around the word "misrepping")

And the non-mind readers should still be able to look at those posts where *every time* I noted something town about you it was in direct relation to Empking.
I could change the word to misunderstanding if it really hurts your feelings, but the point is valid. I really don't see how you can look at those posts and say 'Thor thinks Mina is obvious town who it would be weird if he wanted to lynch her tomorrow' and that's what you're doing and it just doesn't follow what I said which leaves me wondering how you came to that conclusion and expect me to treat it seriously.

Way to completely miss my point. You'd be the mislynch, genius. By coasting and becoming all, "Hey, guys, let's just lynch whoever, dudes," and being loose with his reads and flip-flopping on me without explanation (and I don't care if I was really your second or third suspect all along, because that didn't show through in the thread when you never really attacked me), Thor was giving the last scum more cover if he was town. What I mean is that even if you want me lynched, try to justify yourself.

I sort of feel like the pot is calling me something here.
Okay, so I'm a potential mislynch now. If that is true I don't think it's because I want to lynch you and I don't think the cure is wallposting or trying to seem like I "care" more. You're basically accusing me of not working hard enough to look town, while suggesting it's bad because I'll be a *mislynch* which means you think I look town because I'm a mislynch and not scum. This makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Also, as noted in my post (and apparently a point you're completely missing) I didn't flip-flop on you and I did provide explanation of my vote, many times.

[Thor665]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 0#p2646130

I'm pretty sure that's the case most people are citing. If there's another one I haven't seen it.

[Thor665]

Vote: Thor

Blargity-blarg, sorry Mina.

Percy is town, I'd love to see that wagon die. Kscope and Nul are my top reads for the last scum and I'm coming around to Elmo's replacement being all about busted scum wanting out of his current slot. I'd lynch the two of them tomorrow. Pretty much everyone else is also a town read as previously discussed but what the hell do I know.

[Thor665]

mainly because of thor's signature

Furc, if you look at the interactions Ben is really unlikely to be scum - really unlikely.

[Thor665]

WTF is with the self-voting? Given we had one instance already in this game makes me

Look at your suspect rankings (and Sotty's while we're at it). look at the number of lynches available, look at me having no real clue as to whom to lynch next other than my vague KScope and Nul pointings. I'm a liability at this stage and shouldn't get to endgame with town and other than Baby Spice have been pretty dorky-der-dappy with my suspects so it's not like it's a great loss.

[Thor665]

You think Elmo is that big of a prick to abandon his post like that? I mean, when Mina brought that up I thought it is a likely town tell that has moved Nul down my list of desired lynches.

::shrug:: Okay, he's not.
As I said, I have no flippin' clue anymore - I was just offering what I had before I'm lynched. I really don't care if you think it's stupid and I wasn't trying to be mean to Elmo.

[Thor665]

Thor, quit whining, bro. There's no use in that. Also, what's the point in taking a potshot at a dead player??

??? I don't think I took a shot at a dead player.

Hm. I think this is anti-town and really lazy, but whatever floats your boat.

Well, I could just lazily put my vote somewhere else if it really excites you, but frankly me, KScope, and probably Nul should all be deadified by town sooner rather than later - I don't get your issue with the order, but here you go;

Unvote: Thor665
Vote: KaleiDoscope

[Thor665]

calling baby spice derpy is not a potshot at a dead player?

I never did this. I think you're mistaking a post where I commented about BS and then called myself derpy.

[Thor665]

But if half the purpose to lynch Percy is to read KScope why not just lynch KScope?
The only "necessity" I see for a Percy lynch would be based off general suspicion of him, and by vote count KScope has more than Percy making him more necessary - am I missing something?

[Thor665]

Vote: Equinox

And I am out of suspects after this one.

[Thor665]

i know this is a weird suggestion, but what if we just continue talking for deadlines upon deadlines, no lynching
i know we would lose a lynch in the bottom scenario, but we could gain over an extra month of deliberation

Yeah, let's not do that. We have six alive and three lynches left and scum still need to off one of our potential suspects as well, that's 50% odds to win presuming we just use random.com every time and have no town reads.

IAI's no more than one suspect seems logical.

I want to lynch Equinox still. I think any town with two brain cells should see it's pretty much down to him or I.

Vote: Equinox

[Thor665]

I think he has something in his sig about that, so he'll endorse it.

[Thor665]

That was on Page 3 - maybe he was just avoiding an early big bandwagon?
Besides, IAI has that whole 'I'm voting Baby Spice to get Percy lynched spiel. Really, he'd bus a buddy in order to implicate a town that already had a lot of people suspecting him but he'd be scared to bus a buddy Day 1 on Page 3? Meh, doesn't make sense.

[Thor665]

As usual, Ben marches to the beat of his own drum
Just do Equi next.

[Thor665]

I got two side teeth, which was total BS.

[Thor665]

Synonyms is more like it!

I have to admit the grind Equi is putting on is blowing my mind on the scum read on him.

[Thor665]

@furc - Because I'm town and town can have scum reads.

Your move

@Equi - Scum wouldn't need to develop reads as deeply and could hit the ground running quicker. I know my replace in reads as scum tend to be quicker than those as town because I feel "safer" skipping large text walls and the ilk. The constant 'don't hammer till I catch up' stuff is also telling. Scum would be happy with that result (barring their own lynch). That would make the only real scum tactic there an attempt to...I dunno, slowly drive town insane by making them listen to furc or something. None of it makes clear sense to me in a scum motivation arc.

[Thor665]

Hey, Equi, how's the read going? I sort of feel like we're all stalled out and staring at you.

[Thor665]

Guys, seriously, a furc run?

Remember when furc sort of blindly lumbered onto the Dry-fit wagon "following his heart" as his only real logic and then suggested Dry-fit should be quicklynched? Quicklynched! Dry-fit had just then managed to barely tie with the other top wagon, and furc had left the alternate top competing wagon (on jasonT who had "scumslipped" remember that?) to try to get Dry-fit lynched. That just doesn't make sense if he was Dry's scumbuddy. Equi is obv. scum who is just trying to roll out a lynch on a player with a disliked playstyle so he'll still have me around for a mislynch tomorrow.

[Thor665]

I bet my own lynch on this.

Deal?

That's not a smart play for either scum or town to offer, so I'm not sure what you expect my conclusion of it to be. How about you instead address my logic for clearing furc instead of just dismissing it by calling it fail - I'm sure in that giant wall o' text on furc you addressed those points already.

I would be willing to make a deal that we lynch you and that if game continues and furc lives to tomorrow I'll consider him as a potential suspect along with everyone else. Is that a deal?

@jasonT - yeah, he didn't. I personally take that as a town tell on both of you.

[Thor665]

Thor, please reread Posts 323 - 374 and tell me that Furc pushed hard on Dry Fit, I instead see him unvote him multiple times, once at L-1, pushing other lynches like RC.

Speaking of this, look at this post by jasonT. If we are right about Furc, major props on that call! (PS - look at how Furc responds to this post by jasonT, calls him a VI...)

1. I promise to do this sometime tomorrow and offer thoughts. I find his aggressive willingness to vote anyone to be a town tell though. (not a good play tell, but still )
2. I'm not sure i follow your point here. jasonT says he suspects furc and furc claims a town read on jason, what's the evidence in that for furc being scum?

I would be willing to make a deal that we lynch you and that if game continues and furc lives to tomorrow I'll consider him as a potential suspect

along with everyone else

. Is that a deal?

What do you exactly mean by the underlined?

Just that. If I end up in the double lynch mylo tomorrow I'm going to need to reassess everything I currently hold as true in this game.

Thor665, how strong is your read on Furcolow?

I'm actually not sure how to classify strength of a read. I'll go with weaker than the ones on you, Ben, and jason, probably equivalent to the IAI read.

[Thor665]

@Ben - any particular reasoning on that one, I thought me and Equi were your last two?

@IAI - So you seriously think all three scum were trying to push through a jason mislynch with the logic of a weak scumslip (from two of them) and nothing much at all from the last? I'll admit if that's the scumteam it's not the most dangerous scum team ever, but I'm still pretty sure they understand the basic concept of not all pushing a single mislynch at the same time.

[Thor665]

If you see Equi as town either you are quite dumb or I am - and I prefer to think of myself as brilliant because it makes me feel good about myself.

Why do you think all the scum dogpiled on jasonT at once?

[Thor665]

I never made a true case on Thor and was worried he would just charm his way out again. In the end PoE caught up with him. I know he is poorly right now so I can't help but wonder if he could have talked himself out of the first lynch if he was given a chance to post.

The beard is charming, but was a bit scraggly towards the end
I dunno, in retrospect I think I've always been either speedlynched or lynched in abstentia every time I've ever been lynched - maybe I'm more charming than I think?
Probably just need more games as scum so people have a better feel for my meta, really.

I think if Thor had even one better buddy, things could have been different. Then again, if he had a chance to say something on the final day things could have been different

I would have killed for a cleaner buddy. At the time I replaced in town had already basically busted the scum team, I was a very depressed thunder-gawd.

Don't think anyone'll want to hear other stuff I could think of. The avatar bet should have gone ahead, obv

I was actually rooting for it to happen for the lulz.

Zach - 2/3 of (current) scum team now approves reveal of scum QT

Mostly it's just me wailing around though - it got lonely.

Off to read the Dead QT for laughs and to be told how horrible my play was

[Thor665]

Dead QT thoughts;

BS - sigging Ben wasn't a scumslip, it was sigged because that comment was friggin' hilarious!

Mina - "Thor's self-vote confirms him as town, but makes me want to throttle him. Thor, I refuse to accept your apology unless you make an effort and show that my loss of my perfect never-been-mislynched streak and death before I could even make my last cases or get a reaction from Percy wasn't in vain."

So, do I need to apologize or just maniacally twiddle my fingers and grin? I'm good at both.

"Still...at the very least, [Sotty] should realize that Thor is obvtown."

I know, right? Total paranoid witch is what she is, assuredly.

Looking over the Dead QT the only clue I have for better play is maybe I should have killed jason earlier and let Sotty live longer for greater Percy lollercoaster events. I was just a little paranoid she'd get off her duff and puzzle out a case on me that people would listen to, so I had to give her the axe both literally and figuratively. I do actually disagree with the Dead QT insomuch as I believe 'disinterested coasting Thor' saved my butt for a while there. I did want to try for the win, but my strategy *was* to just try to make the game a bit of a miserable morass as that is high fun times for scum.

[Thor665]

I think I agree with Oso mostly. Scum was in a bad spot after two correct lynches early on but...well, isn't that what happens when own hits that accurate?

The one thing I will say is I don't think scum have such an advantage where day talk should be limited - either the day talk is worth giving them or it isn't (I'd say give it, considering the double lynch mechanic) but frankly the whole half day on/half off business kinda felt confusing and slightly left me off balance as to keeping track of such conversation.

[Thor665]

I'd agree. I consider full day talk to be a scumvantadge, but frankly a double lynch is a solid townvantadge so it feels relatively powered.

[Thor665]

Meh, 2 of 3 of the surviving scum team consented, and Dry Fit only ever posted once, so here;
Scum QT