Objection Redux - It's all over bar the shouting!

[AlmasterGM]

Awesomesauce.

vote: VV

Snipe edit: in the time it took me to write this, Fate's posted even more LOLOLOL Fate UNLEASHED.

[AlmasterGM]

Awesomesauce.

vote: VV

Snipe edit: in the time it took me to write this, Fate's posted even more LOLOLOL Fate UNLEASHED.

You're in this game?

>_>

Your vote is appreciated sir, I will do all I can to fix those potholes in your neighborhood.

SORRY IM RAININ ON UR PARADE OF A GAME. celebrating holidays and traveling and stuff.

And thanks for fixing the potholes, the wear they were putting on my tires was not nice at all.

[AlmasterGM]

omg you post so much i can't even keep up.

[AlmasterGM]

yay front row tickets to vv vs fate.

sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

Snipe edit @ VV's vote: LOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[AlmasterGM]

YOUR CASE ON AGM

Vote: AGM Blatantly opportunistic.

Even calling that a case is more generous than the entire history of the bill and melinda gates foundation.

the reason I love this is because the initial argument wasn't even that spectacular, but vv just took the little bit of rope, stretched into a noose, and put it around his neck.

[AlmasterGM]

Hello, hello. Sorry, holiday plus traveling meant no time for mafia. Now I have finals which means loads of time to procrastinate.

Since Fate seems to have covered the actual arguments (I don't get this whole "say it your own words" thing, I agree with his args and I'm not regurgitating them in a book report) and VV's whole arg against me is LOL AGM SHOULD KNOW MY META, I'll talk about that.

AGM:
Now then. My read on AGM is more on meta. But this guy has been in 2 games with me(Trader Mafia, Greek Mythology Mafia), modded me twice(AW:Mafia, DEFCON Mafia). Now, if you've known a certain player for that many games, it's not unreasonable that you'll get to pick up his playstyle, right?

I've been lynched D1 in the two games we were players together(we were both Town.) and I have lost BOTH games he has modded me in(In a funky fashion, might I add!).

He then....votes for me... without even acknowledging our past experience. Not even questioning or wondering 'Oh hey...maybe this is Vas fudging up again..'. He just hops along the wagon with sooo little words. If you have experience with a player whom you know as a player who messes up a lot, you would try to get a better read on him.

He didn't. He hopped along mercilessly.

These two are scum. Moar AGM votes plx.

VIG....COP...////// NK FODDER? So basically VV is saying "Im not worried about Fate he'll be taken care of at night one way or the other as one alignment or the other so Im not gonna bother butting heads with him." HE KNOWS IF HE BUTTS HEADS WITH ME HE WILL BE LYNCHED.

The second quote explains the second, although not fully. You're right - I have watched you pretty much punt two games as town and misread you in two others. The fact that you fell for the same tricks twice (executed by similar people, no less) leads me to believe you aren't putting a lot of effort into changing your town playstyle. However, I don't think you are dumb, necessarily, and if you pulled a scum role PM I think you would contemplate on how to hide. The way I think you would do that is to get the fuck out of the most aggressive person in the game - Fate. You would also have an incentive to dodge SocioPath (which you do by not responding to him even though he drops a vote directly on you).

With regards to the rest of your responses, I didn't go back and comb our game history, but they sounded different than I remember. Previously, you were a lot more logical a lot less dismissive with your defense. You also had lots more offense. This game, you've been significantly more defensive and dodging of Fate than you are in previous games (where you engaged him directly), which makes sense given the analysis I gave just above this. Your offense is also much weaker (both in content and in persuasive force) than I remember it. TL;DR THERE IS NOTICEABLE META SHIFT SO DON'T GIVE ME THAT.

And don't come back and be like "lol meta is for noobs anyway" because you asked for it in the first place.

That debacle aside, my other pick for scum is PZ. He's basically been sliding around through the game by complaining about the textwalls (which I don't sympathize with because I have infinite stuff to do too and I still read them) and nagging Elli and Vi to do stuff (which is illogical because there's plenty of content now that he can't keep up with, so if they DID show up and post content, he'd probably just go LOL TEXT WALL again). TL;DR PZ IS COASTING SCUM.

[AlmasterGM]

Also, @UK why do you ask me to explain my VV vote three times in a row but you DON'T ask the same of spyrex, even though he did the same thing I did (sans some random quotes with no explanation he threw down)?

[AlmasterGM]

Also also, I don't like mangus stalling the lynch - stalling usually leads to wagon shifts. If VV flips scum magnus is probably a buddy.

[AlmasterGM]

Fine, but you aren't even making arguments for rhox-scum, your just agreeing with somebody else (idk who, you don't quote it in your iso). you are also not being comparative (e.g., why should we dump the vv wagon and switch to rhox).

all you do is say, "we need longer days," which is a bs excuse.

[AlmasterGM]

Re: Rhinox

So he's scummier because he's posting less on a holiday weekend that he says he'll be V/LA for? Seems weak.

Also, how does more noise invariably lead to a heavier scum read? Don't you say that Rhinox is scummier because he's posted less? Are you saying everyone is deluded about this EXCEPT for you?

Re: Long Days

Fine.

[AlmasterGM]

there's only more things to call scummy if the person is being scummy. if there person was being town, then there'd be more things to call town.

[AlmasterGM]

whatever this argument is menial and does not cancel out the fact that if vv flips scum this is a REALLY weak and thinly veiled counter-argument and you are thus probable-vv-buddy.

[AlmasterGM]

So you don't want to deconstruct the case, but you somehow mysteriously KNOW that the Rhinox "case" (even though there's no case) is better than the VV case because Rhinox has posted less and therefore subjected to this magically unsupported phenomenon that people who post more are more likely to be called scum because there are more things to call them out on DESPITE the fact that this can clearly work both ways and there is an obv site meta AGAINST lurkers?

hmm?

[AlmasterGM]

If you're not holding him accountable for not posting, and there aren't any arguments against him because he hasn't posted, then HOW IS HE POSSIBLY SCUMMIER THAN VV. Especially when you haven't even DECONSTRUCTED THE VV CASE, so you don't even have anything to be comparative with.

Unvote. Vote: magnus

[AlmasterGM]

omg your snipe just concluded this whole thing with the biggest fucking fence-sit I have ever seen on this site ever

[AlmasterGM]

Fate join me on this brand new fashionably IRONIC wagon.

[AlmasterGM]

m_o: It's the attitude you take. It's not a "more information to figure out who is scum", your language CLEARLY indicates you are interesting in trying to use quantity over quality to try to pin someone to the ground that's innocent. I don't know how to stay what I mean more elegantly since that doesn't feel quite right but...ugh, that statement just exuded "This is why scum want longer days, and I'm scum who wants a longer day"

The best part is mangus ADMITS THIS.

VV just has more thread noise,

which invariably leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

read, "we need longer days so Rhinox can post more and I can find more reasons to call him scummy and derail the VV lynch muahahaha."

[AlmasterGM]

You did NOT say that. You said,

which

invariably

leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

Invariable means ALL THE TIME. Which means more posts ALWAYS means somebody looks scummier. This is magnified by the fact that you use the word "someone" instead of "VV," further suggesting that this applies ALL THE TIME. Not just to VV/Rhinox.

[AlmasterGM]

my above post is referring to m_o.

@Vi - see my entire argument with m_o, he's being scumtastic and is clearly the best wagon right now.

also where do I call rhinox town. I have no read on him because he ISN'T POSTING, which makes sense.

SNIPE EDIT: OMG now rhinox is here too, god now i have to read him and rethink eveerrything.

[AlmasterGM]

UK is scum now?

wut.

[AlmasterGM]

o rly magnus? you were ONLY talking about VV/Rhinox?

which invariably leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

if you were referring to a specific person, then why do you say "someone" instead of him?

more info = more things to call scummy.
is what I mean.

sounds like a pretty general concept to me. more posts = more stuff to attack doesn't JUST apply to VV/Rhinox.

Most people

commit things that could be interpreted as scumtells frequently. If I had been lurking instead of mentioning my preference for long day 1s, you'd have nothing to call me a buddy for. I'm town, doesn't mean I don't say things that can't be interpreted as scummy.

Bolded mine, MOST PEOPLE. Not just VV and Rhinox.

[AlmasterGM]

@Vi -

First sentence - The comparison here is WITH VASUDEVA. I think it has been established that m_o looks sketchy, but why him over the person you were previously gung-ho for?

I don't know. I admit, I have not actually compared the cases side by side. I am just voting for magnus because he has been more scummy more recently. I SHOULD do a comparative analysis, but that will come later. Right now, I am more interested in seeing where this goes and giving myself more stuff to compare with.

Second sentence - The context of that accusation was that magnus_orion was SCUM trying to deflect attention from VasudeVa SCUM toward Rhinox EVIDENTLYNOTSCUM. The last alignment assumption is filled in but I don't see how it would be any other way.

Hm, I suppose it does sound that way. What my thought process was that I have such a massive scum read on VV that going from him to anybody else (other than magnus, obi) seems like a deflection - especially when that somebody else hasn't really even posted that much.

@m_o - ...Yes, that was my original point: that what you said was general. And then you said "no wait look at my bolded quote, I am specifically talking VV/Rhinox." And now you are back to saying it was general again. Ok.

[AlmasterGM]

I understand, but I do not agree that if B from the "bad" graph posts more he is automatically scummier. If he was making lots of content-filled posts that were very protown, I think he would appear protown. I think this is especially true given the sitemeta against lurking.

As a question to reinforce the above statement, if more posts --> more scummy things to find, why isn't Fate (the person who has posted the most BY FAR in this game) currently your top scum read?

Also, if you think equalized posting is key to developing fair scum reads, why are you only hounding Rhinox for not posting and not players like Papa Zito (who are mostly noise / nonsense), Vezok, and others?

Also also, how is this posting equalization even possible? Doesn't variations in posting styles always mean there will always be outliers, and these people will always appear scummier than their less aggressive counterparts?

[AlmasterGM]

^ oh no you don't.

[AlmasterGM]

get back here and be productive.

[AlmasterGM]

Uhm...yeah. I suppose an apology to magnus is in order.

[AlmasterGM]

You forgot to use your role AND your iso is basically 11 posts of nothing.

HURRRR.

[AlmasterGM]

Vote: Vezo

[AlmasterGM]

Meh I think vezok is town

Wut. Why. Look at his last three posts.

unvote
vote Magnus

You sir are way to scummy to not be lynched today.

unvote
vote VV

Yeah this is the superior wagon. We can think about Magnus tomorrow.

I am so stupid. I forgot to use my role last night.


I'll give my reads when my head doesn't hurt.

It's like, "LOLOL look at me contradict myself and wagon hop around with no justification at all, then softclaim so i don't die right away and have time to stall some more. oh yeah and in total ive made 11 one-liner posts."

[AlmasterGM]

ELLI IS PROBTOWN.

SOCIO IS RIGHT ABOUT SCUM BUSSING, HE BUSSES LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER.

/DRUNKPOSTING

[AlmasterGM]

WHY WOULDNT YOU JUST VOTE VEZOK, ITS LIKE VOTING ELLI EXCEPT WITHOUT THE RISKS.

MANGUS CAN WAIT, HE WILL DIG MOAR HOLES FOR HIMSELF.

WHEREAS VEZOK WILL JUST STALL.

[AlmasterGM]

HMM THIS IS TRUE.

UNVOTE. VOTE: MAGNUS

[AlmasterGM]

I honestly don't remember what logic I had for that assessment last night. It is quite probable there was none. But, looking at it now, I just feel like he reads more like "busy" whereas Vezok and PZ read like "lazy and/or scummy." But maybe I'm just a sucker for AtE.

Re: Neighborizer - So it's both confirmable and unconfirmable at the same time. LOVELY.

[AlmasterGM]

HI DTM. STILL GOT SOUR GRAPES FROM THAT FIRST NEWBIE, I SEE.

1. Where you called out that VV was both telling the truth but at the same time dismissed both Meta arguments because VV's play style was different (e.g. you said that it was getting sloppier in comparison to the other games that VV punted).

Can you link these games and show how? . I don't care if we know VV is town, but I want to know WHY you came to the conclusion that stated that VV is acting as town meta but is different enough to be scummy even though you didn't take the time to consider it.

Um, ok, this needs to be responded to line by line.

"Where you called out that VV was both telling the truth" - when did I say VV was telling the truth?
"but at the same time dismissed both Meta arguments because VV's play style was different" - I didn't dismiss a meta argument, I rebutted it with counter-analysis.
"e.g. you said that it was getting sloppier in comparison to the other games that VV punted)." - I did talk about sloppiness a bit, but the important part of the argument related to VV's interactions with Fate.
"Can you link these games and show how?" - No. I really do not feel like going back and combing games to discuss the meta of a dead player, especially since I was talking about his general playstyle and interactions with other players, not this one specific thing he does (e.g., it's not like I can just whip out a single post and be like "LOOK, VV DOES THIS HERE)."
"but I want to know WHY you came to the conclusion that stated that VV is acting as town meta" where do I say VV is acting as town?
"but is different enough to be scummy even though you didn't take the time to consider it" = What am I not considering?

AGM also: D1, even though knowing that Rhino was scum, did you think he was town at all? Using only knowledge from D1 around the time of the link post above.

I had no opinion of Rhino at that time.

[AlmasterGM]

god, wtf is going on now.

i'm an english major, this dtm + spyrex mathematics is making my head spin.

[AlmasterGM]

K.

DTM has responded with walls. Lovely. I shall respond shortly IT'LL BE A NICE SIDESHOW to all this whoop-dee-fucking-do that's going on.

[AlmasterGM]

fuuuck.

[AlmasterGM]

Hey, just checking in to say I have finals until Tuesday. I can probably get one post in before that, and then activity will pick up dramatically afterwards. Sorry but that's just how it rolls.

[AlmasterGM]

OMG HERE ARE MY RESPONSES

This isn't a math question, no comparative analysis necessary. There were lots of people on VasudeVa (who you say is STILL hyperscummy) and he was getting lynched in 48 hours on my guarantee. You switched off of THAT GUY... why.

I already answered this: cause magnus was acting scummy. And if you want to get technical and say, "oh, well if it's VV vs magnus who is worse," then that is a math question because it requires being comparative which I admitted I did not have time to do at the time.

3. Almaster's response line by line (that I missed)

a. VV Truth telling? OMG. I present to you this quote in ‪objectionfied form‬ This is where you validated VV's self meta in response to VV's accusation that you knew his game play. Thus by validating the self meta, you agree that VV has this history of anti-town play.

Yes, VV has a history of sucking, but I also explained why what VV was doing wasn't just his usual suck-age - it had clear scum motivation. IN RETROSPECT HE HE ACTUALLY WAS JUST SUCKING AS USUAL, but at the time, it looked legit.

b. In regards to hiding from Fate: I can see it. I find your lack of paranoia to be odd because VV did have this history. You were bitten twice by VV's play in the games you mentioned. This is the third time. I find it odd that you are punishing him for the same way, using probably simillar arguments to those games that VV dug his own graves, for the third time.

If you're scum looking for that easy case, sure I'd see it. But after 3 times being burned as town, I'd expect you to sit down and think about whether this case would bite you in the arse. When you validated VV's self meta, you opened this Pandora's box of "what if questions".

What do you want me to do, just give VV a free pass until forever plus one? I parsed his meta and saw something that looked like specific scum intent minus the usual suckage. I'm gonna act on that if I see it.

c. Remember this quote ‪that I objectionified‬. Why didn't you verify your reads? Are you that lazy? Or do you want to make a fake argument that I can't check up on? I'll wiki this and see what I can dig up but your inherit laziness to link these games when asked about when you clearly made a meta argument is really bad.

It was a general playstyle thing of how VV acts. It's not like I can go back to a game and whip out a very specific quote. If you disagree with the general read and have infinite time to go re-read old games regarding already dead players for the sole point of proving I am wrong about this (hint: i'm not), then be my guess and go look. The games I was going off are: Advance Wars: Mafia Rising, DEFCON Mafia, and Trader Mafia.

I wasn't looking for you to defend your stance on VV when I asked you to meta link. I was looking what your response was. I'd say you failed my little scum test because my hypothesis was:

As a town's person who made the above meta argument, it would be easy for him to link to the games in question. Since you know where these games are, you are able to make these arguments thus would be willing to link them. By linking the game, you Almaster, is showing actual determination to scum hunt. Thus: You are trying to find scum in this game and you're actually doing something.

As a scum's person you'd show reluctance to find these games even though you made meta arguments. Thus you gain scum points either through laziness or showing signs that you were throwing arguments to keep the VV fires going.

I'm judging you not on your actual conclusions here, I'm trying to see if you're putting effort in these cases (aka I'm looking to see if you're actually doing what you say). So far you don't seem to be. Reading between the lines is something that I've been improving on :p.

This analysis is bull shit, there's absolutely no reason why 1) my argument that re-parsing the games is POINTLESS isn't true and 2) town can't be lazy.

c. You validated VV's meta thus you validate that VV's self meta argument is town. It's a conclusion that's implied when you agreed that: "Yes VV does cause the town to shoot itself in the foot". Even though you made it fit into a "this could also be scum" argument, the inherit contrast is there to make your point.

You didn't say it directly, but it wasn't necessary.

This doesn't matter given my SPECIFIC META ANALYSIS that says even though VV was SUCKING as usual there was still specific scum motivation going on.

d. You didn't consider anti-town VV (stated above) despite your previous history with VV. Why didn't you throw that on the table? (See a again)

SEE ABOVE RESPONSE.

Happy?

[AlmasterGM]

PS Socio is acting like socioscum.

[AlmasterGM]

lol, of course.

[AlmasterGM]

Vote: sociopath

[AlmasterGM]

Actually, I might be changing my mind about Socio. The fact that he has only voted for (dead) townies thus far makes me think he is town. If he was scum, he would have bussed by now. Then again, though, I'm going all of how he plays in minis and he just said he plays differently in larges, soooo not sure if that equates. For the moment, I'll backburner him.

Unvote.

Vezok is simultaneously screaming scum and mislynch. I also think there is one scum between UK and Jahudo.

I will research this more and return with my final opinion.

[AlmasterGM]

Also, the Socio point is ESPECIALLY true given there was a perfect target for bussage: Rhinox.

[AlmasterGM]

Mod can we get a prod on vezok please

[AlmasterGM]

vote: vezok

[AlmasterGM]

what wrongs hath I committed that make me voteage worthy?

[AlmasterGM]

This stuff about me never casing Rhinox is bullshit because he got vigged that night, so I had no reason to case him. The "fencesititng on socio" argument is equally dumb because Jahudo admits in the SAME POST that Socio is difficult to read. If somebody is difficult to read, your analysis of them is going to naturally look like fencesitting since there's not going to be much going either way for them (e.g., I'm not going to bust out and say OMG SOCIOS OBVTOWN because of some minute meta argument).

Vezok simply cannot be allowed to live any more. Simple as that. Yeah, MAYBE he's just dumbtown. But there's no evidence of that, and there never will be because he doesn't post anything. It's lynch teim.

[AlmasterGM]

Jahudo, what do you do if vezok is in lylo?

[AlmasterGM]

Socio and vezok are not buddies. Socio would have bussed by now. I'M SERIOUS ABOUT THIS ONE.

[AlmasterGM]

This assumes we've caught another scums and I'm in the game still? I would re-look at vezok and see if he has any better connections to scum, but right now I don't buy the connection to Rhinox.

What connections are you going to look at? Vezok has made ONE POST longer than 2 lines. His votes jump all over the place. You can spin the vezokwheel and it'll point in whatever direction you want.

[AlmasterGM]

Also DTM is BROWSING THE FORUM and needs to post.

[AlmasterGM]

I don't know.

[AlmasterGM]

Why is it interesting?

[AlmasterGM]

Please don't shot me. I have a sweet role and I don't want to get shot. And I don't want Fate to get shot either.

NICE USE OF THAT SWEET ROLE YOU GOT THERE.

I agree with DTM on vezok/UK bussing. This is fucking ridiculous. How are we supposed to read you if you hardly ever post content and don't even bother to use your supposed PR?

[AlmasterGM]

DTM I honestly don't even remember what was going on at the time, it was like a month ago.

Does this still actually matter?

[AlmasterGM]

So, it's lylo between GammaGooey, vezok, and myself.

Hmm. Let me think about it.

Ok, Done.

There is just no fucking way I am allowing vezokscum to win this game.

No.

Fucking.

Way.

If Gamma is scum I won't even be mad. Because vezok's play this game was just so terrible that even allowing it the CHANCE of victory is 100% unacceptable.

I'M TOWN, SO FUCK LYLO DISCUSSION, HERE GOES NOTHING.

Vote: Vezok

[AlmasterGM]

Cool, so vezok is scum.

My claim is Vera Mishnam, VT.

why vezok is scum? um, because he lied about his claim (seeing as he NEVER USED IT despite having multiple chances to) and hasn't done anything all game but lurk.

[AlmasterGM]

ummm UK was the BUDDY.

HELLLLLLLo.

[AlmasterGM]

and even if for some demented reason his claim is legit, your explanation makes sense too

[AlmasterGM]

WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK VEZOK.

FUCKING SERIOUSLY.

Normally I'd be like, "oooh I made the wrong decision in lylo, silly me," BUT NO, NOT THIS TIME. VEZOK, IF YOU HAD JUST USED YOUR MOTHERFUCKING ABILITY YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED TOWN AND NOT OBVSCUM. THX.

GOD.

THIS GAME.

Good job scum.