back-ish but still limited access til tonight/tomorrow. making this post at work.
First off,
unvote: vezok
. Softclaim is meh and she still hasn't done anything but there are better lynches.
VV vs Fate: I don't know how much specifics I can get into without quotewalls and making everyone's eyes gloss over, but I think Fate has made some good points and I think VV has done an excellent job making himself look really bad. I don't know what to think of VV because the last and only other time I saw him he was VT and VI. He didn't really care to defend himself and just said he was lazy and played into the VI defense with meta and links and whatnot. This game he's super paranoid about getting lynched and goes toe to toe with Fate (props for that) which is completely different from what I know of his town play. He is still using meta and quotes for defense, and WIFOM with the whole "scum wouldn't claim VT" stuff. I think he's not legitimately trying to find scum either and is mudslinging/going for "easy" (as in a hail mary maaaaaybe I can make a decent case on these people to save my own skin) lynches.
But what is really giving me pause is that there is little resistance to the lynch and no real counterwagon option. Either every scum are bussing (imo, likely if VV is scum) or maybe VV really is town.
edit: ok there is a counterwagon now, wrote the above before page 12/13-ish. More below.
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Fate is fate. I feel like /inv 11 I got the Fate apetizer portion and now I've got the whole dinner. Had I known nothing about fate, I would say only town who really think they got scum go after someone D1 like fate went after VV. But I do know enough to know that this is how fate plays. In this particular case, I feel like the whole situation just appeared out of thin air - Fate was basically throwing around shovels and VV was the first to start digging. At this point, I don't know if fate really truly believes VV is scum, doesn't care if VV is scum and is lynching him for the wagon analysis tomorrow, or is scum going after the player that is easiest to rile up.
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Spyrex and I can be friends again. In /inv 11 scum-spy was sitting in the background taking sniper shots at VV all game and not looking anywhere else. Now, he's backing up arguments and still looking elsewhere with all the bullet talk earlier. While its feasable given the sililarities in the playerlist that scum-spy could alter his play or he was simply less focused or off his game last time, for now I'm comfortable leaning town on spy. Also, law of averages, etc. (the last sentence was joking, btw).
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I'm leaning scum on Jahudo thus far. I know jahudo to play pretty cautiously as town, but he usually chimes in on all the important issues with sound arguments. All I recall from jahudo so far is saying something reasonably accusatory towards vezok, then waiting around for vekok, then more replying about vezok. It is wierd that jahudo hasn't really chimed it at all regarding VV or fate or the claim or anything considering VV
is
was L-1 and nearly ready to be hammered. I would expect town jahudo to have more to say about it, and be definitively either willing to hammer, or against the lynch. ok, doublechecking his iso, he makes some vague comments about it in isos 1, 3, and 4, but nothing that says he either likes or dislikes a VV lynch, only vague thoughts and comparison to a vezok lynch. Also weird that jahudo hasn't mentioned the vezok soft claim or taken that into consideration.
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UK is also scummy. Starting out by voting the mod is just a RVS cop out.
Iso 1: "Because Vi is a terrible wagon and shouldn't happen." - similar early response to the Vi wagon as me only UK takes it a step farther and calls it terrible.
There was some talk about my response to the wagon being scummy and without going back to find the individual posts I'll just explain that I was just acknowledging the RVS wagon yes I realized it was just jokey/random/nonserious or whatever you want to call it but I didn't just want to ignore it. I felt like it would be a good thing to just talk/argue about to get the game started of course that was before Fate jumped in and really got the game started. If that doesn't answer all the questions about my talk about the Vi wagon then ask me again.
Back to UK:
Iso 2: comment about grammer in the win condition aka fluff.
Iso 3: "Because Vi is a lot more valuable than 50% of you put together, as town or scum. She will not be lynched today." - this is pretty scummy if Vi is scum she is not more valuable than anyone. "I'm fine with lynching her any day after though." - why is it not ok to lynch Vi D1 but ok any other day, all else being equal? Also, still voting the mod aka not voting anyone.
Iso 4: "@PZ: Well, you see, someone has to *say* she won't be lynched today or the magic doesn't work. And even if she's scum we can find her stupider scum buddies that out her as scum first." - this seems like backpedaling - in iso 3 she was giving actual reasons for not lynching Vi, and now she's just doing it because thats the "due process" or something but then also gives another real attempt at a reason that doesn't make sense to me. Why does it matter which scum we lynch first? Wouldn't it make sense to lynch the smarter/more dangerous scum first?
then there is some stuff which is null so I won't iso and then...
iso 9: "OK, here's my conclusion right now. VV is acting like I act when I'm very frustrated town because, as he put it, some moron is screaming in my face."
iso 12: "If you'd like to tell me what's wrong with VV in a succinct way, I'd certainly appreciate it ^-^.
See, what's great about Fate accusing me of "strawmanning" is that he's the one actually strawmanning."
And then out of no where:
iso 13: "Nearly convinced here. Answer my questions satisfactorily and I'll switch to VV.
I still want AGM to answer what he saw at the time of his vote.
Cut by Fate again: ...What the hell I completely missed the Rhinox thing.
Unvote, Vote VV"
So basically those last 3 posts UK doesn't see the case and is trying to defend VV not by explaining why VV is town but by going after fate for not being succinct or convincing enough, and then after fate lays it out in the whole 1, 2, 3 list, UK suddenly sees the light. And the best part is this all happened in only a couple hours. It just seems fake.
and then by
iso 17: "Just cause Fate is being awesome does NOT mean you get away without thinking!!!" looks like heavy buddying up to fate.
And I also don't like being sniped at while I'm on V/LA, such as iso 21, and this includes M_O too. Actually, finally making it to the current page, MO is a worse offender of that.
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Speaking of MO, he spends a lot of time going after VV early, then stalls the lynch because longer days are better, and then I feel he is opportunistically going after me because I'm not there to answer in real time. But he's not opposed to a VV lynch. But the more he's pressed, he goes from being ok with a VV lynch but maybe thinking I'm possibly scummier to "I want rhinox over VV atm" seems like a shift in view that was not justified by anything I or VV has said but just came about because he was being pressured. And repeating over and over that I might be scummier but I have to post more first for you to be sure isn't going to make me post any sooner than I'm physically able to. Thats why I feel its kinda opportunistic sniping - you keep saying it over and over. Say it once, I'll respond when I get back.
Responding to MO's points against me:
"Here Rhinox randomly decides to vote VV for the sake of avoiding a Vi wagon during the RVS despite having already made a random vote against SpyreX. This is highly disconcerting, as Rhinox should have no concern involving Vi's wagon." - Whether or not I already randomed spyrex is irrelevent. My VV vote was not random it was for a counterwagon. And it was a good counterwagon, based on knowing how VV played in /inv 11, I felt he would at the very least not be helpful to the town.
"It becomes increasingly obvious that Rhinox didn't have any additional reasoning behind his second RVS vote, since he drops it the second there is a different case on the table." - vezok was a better counterwagon, voted for game related reasons rather than meta related reasons.
"While he responds to Fate's comments, he leaves open the other situations going on around him, in particular his opinion on VV is left ambiguous. While his comment could be implied as an advocation of defense of VV, it could also merely be a joke, and the fact that he leaves this ambiguous is highly unsatisfying." - I didn't have an opinion of VV at that point, so it was meant to be ambiguous.
"The reason I find this more compelling than the case against VV is that the rest of Rhinox's posting is mere fluff. And very light fluff at that. VV actually made an effort to make points and do things, etc. His posting takes up a great deal more space than that of Rhinox, hence he has a greater amount of content, so more to pick at. The end result, as I stated before, is that if we divide scumminess by content for these two individuals, we find Rhinox has a much higher ratio, hence why I find the case against him more compelling."
Well like I said, at the beginning of the game, I felt like possibly Fate was just tossing around some shovels and VV was the first to start digging himself into a hole. I don't so much think that VV was trying to do stuff as he was panicking. I don't feel like I was posting any more fluff than anyone else in the first couple pages in the game. The only difference being I was limited access from the start of the game. By rights maybe I shouldn't have posted at all until I could give full effort but I felt I should at least attempt to participate at the start rather be completely non-existent until now.
I think the whole scumminess ratio thing you're trying to claim is all crap. Absolute scumminess is what matters not some ratio. This is meant to be an exaggerated example but if the most protown player with lots of protown votes is tracked to the assumed scum kill on some day 6 or something, they're not given a pass because thats only 1 scummy thing amongst a sea of towniness. Or in the case of VV and me, either He's scummier, or I am. There's no, "well VV is scummier but rhinox only said 1 thing and it was kinda scummy so his scummy ratio is higher".
So, I think MO might be scum but I want to make sure I'm not biased because he thinks I'm scum. Part of me wonders why hypo-scum MO would attempt to derail the VV wagon unless they were scum together, but town MO could legitimately slow the lynch if he wasn't confident it was the best choice.
Shit VV scum PR MO scum goon that would explain EVERYTHING but I'd need my tin-foil hat to believe it. Maybe I'm just paranoid of another DGB/Plum debacle tho...
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Who else is in this game, Vi, Socio, Almaster, Elli, GG, PZ.
Not hamering VV right away seems pro-town regardless of VV's allignment so thats town points for Vi.
Elli and PZ are prob town right now for meta reasons, they both seem kinda lurkerish with little content but with both of them I've seen them each 2 or 3 times just like this and every time they were town.
I don't recall if I've played with socio, almaster, or GG before and all 3 of them are under my radar right now so neutral on those 3.
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So, tl;dr:
scum in {VV, MO, UK, Vezok, Jahudo}. I think VV gets lynched before MO and Vezok gets my bullet to answer spyrex's earlier question, so that means
VOTE: UncertainKitten <-scum
