Mafia of the Chosen Ones (Game Over!)

[Magua]

A WINNAR IS ME

VOTE: Jack for [redacted]

[Magua]

I'm posting here too. Keep your pants on.

(Please. *Please* keep your pants on.)

I'll hammer once two people answer this question: Who would you be voting if Vezok wasn't in this game?

[Magua]

Unvote

VOTE: vezokpiraka

[Magua]

Your caps lock key seems to be broken.

Jus' sayin'.

[Magua]

And here I thought this thread was about policy lynches.

Oh, and for me, it's about setup speculation. But I'll keep that to myself for now.

[Magua]

I played with him in Last Will Mafia 2.

I don't think "attempted the impossible" is straight up flavor kill (I expect that is either "corrupted", from Holy Orders, or "shot", given the flavor in the OP).

No posts by him. Will worry about it later.

VOTE: Jack for [redacted]

[Magua]

But it's undeniable that Rhinox is dead, and the only way that makes sense to me right now is a NK.

I had the same thought as you did (about narrowing down who could've submitted the NK), but there's enough possibilities that I think it's more reasonable to wait until we're sure that that's NK flavor, rather than trying to do anything about it now.

Hi guys, I disapprove of quick lynching. The faith given to seraphs is great and all, but they won't be able to use their freaking powers if we lynch before they send in a PM, just like all the other players that aren't on during this that have powers.

Chances are high that both of these are true (they were both true in MoHO):
1) There are no town PRs to start.
2) Town seraph gains more faith from a lynch than scum seraph.

But instead of coming on and simply complaining, how about you toss down a vote so we actually have something to talk about?

[Magua]

Inhim/Nixon.
We quicklynched vezok as a half-policy lynch and half-get 100 faith for the seraphs.

EVERYONE ON THE LYNCH GETS A MINIMUM TWO-DAY PASS.

TOWN
FATE
AGM
ANDRIUS
THE GUY THAT VOTED JACK FOR 22

EXCOMMUNICATE THESE BASTARDS
MAGUA
MOTHRAX

Another person who needs to put down a vote.

[Magua]

Agreed.

VOTE: MAGUA

Your "EVERYONE ON THE LYNCH GETS A MINIMUM TWO-DAY PASS." does not appear to have lasted two days.

[Magua]

I'm sorry.

EVERYONE ON THE LYNCH BUT MAGUA GETS A MINIMUM TWO-DAY PASS.

Apology accepted.

NIXONFACE DEMANDS THIS OF MAGUA:

Why no vote in that first post?

I had a vote in my first post. It was for Jack. Do you wish to adjust your question?

[Magua]

Dessert:

Why go back to random/arbitrary voting?

Who said anything about random/arbitrary?

DO YOU WISH TO ACTUALLY ADMIT YOU KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT?

No. I want you to explain what you're talking about so that I don't have to make (possibly erroneous) judgments about what you might be talking about.

[Magua]

In your first post after coming back to the thread FUCK THIS LET'S RAGE.

WHAT ERRONEOUS JUDGMENTS COULD YOU POSSIBLY MAKE

Well, obviously I could assume you meant my first post, rather than the first post after there were already 12 people voting for vezok, which, after all, was my second post.

I could also assume that there's a problem with your caps lock key. Perhaps you're using Andrius' keyboard?

Footnote for town seraphs: Assuming you're full on faith right now, Neighborizer would be a great power to bestow at this point. Used correctly, incredibly useful, but not a huge loss if the target is lynched or dies.

[Magua]

EBWOP, I messed up the quote tags, my bad.

[Magua]

Who said anything about random/arbitrary?

You went back to your original vote of Jack with the same reason you used for your page 1 RVS vote, so I wondered why you chose to go back to that when Day 2 started.

Who said my first vote was random or arbitrary?

Why in God's name would you assume this? DON'T YOU DARE SAY IT WAS A HOLY ORDER.

Because that is how I read it the first time.

OK, if you weren't just trying to act like a smartass you might CORRECTLY DEDUCE (as opposed to asininely say you assume) that I was talking about the post in which you did not vote, which would be why I asked why you did not vote.

At that point, I figured if you couldn't be bothered to ask me a full question, you weren't too interested.

Footnote for town seraphs: Assuming you're full on faith right now, Neighborizer would be a great power to bestow at this point. Used correctly, incredibly useful, but not a huge loss if the target is lynched or dies.

Don't like this much at all either. Not a cop?

1) In MoHO, cop cost 135 faith, which would take almost two weeks to build back up to. Neighborizer was 70, which is rebuilt in 5 days.
2) Given that each order can be used once, and assuming that the seraphs do not have any strong townreads, too much of a risk that you give the only cop to a scum.
3) Better to give out doctor first, then cop, then tell doctor who cop is via one of the communication orders.

[Magua]

Who said my first vote was random or arbitrary?

Okay, so I assumed -- your reasoning the second time was identical to the first time, and I can't see the first vote being anything but an RVS vote. If it is serious, then explain, please?

It is serious, but it is not based on anything that has occurred in this game. I can't explain it more than that. Hence the [redacted]. If/when what occurs in this game outweigh that, I will change my vote. Until then, it'll stay on Jack.

[Magua]

I like Equinox.

[Magua]

Re: RhinoX. Trying to clear people based on the nightkill submission is a pointless exercise until you know if "attempted the impossible" is NK flavor or not, because that totally reverses where the suspicion falls. I still don't think it's NK flavor, FWIW.

Scum: Mothrax and Guderian.
Vote: Guderian

I am fine with killing both.

@VasudeVa:

Do you think they're partners?

@RayFrost:

You FoS Babyspice. Does it concern you that both of you are voting Mothrax?

Man, I really don't like Katsuki's posts. Not in an "obvscumdie" way, but in a "you can't be serious way." Why play a large theme if you're going to complain about 7 pages? Seriously.

SKIMMED FATE POSTS
HE SEEMS TO BE THINKING ALONG THE SAME LINES I AM AT LEAST NOT QUICKENDING DAY

Fate says *nothing* along these lines. Let's skim, shall we?

FFFFFFFF WHY IS THIS GAME AT 5 PAGES? IM NOT GOING TO LIKE WHAT IM ABOUT TO READ AM I?

HAHAHH YESYESYEYES WE DI DIT YESYES. [

etc etc

]

GUDERIAN DIES. PREFERABLY WITHIN 50% OF BATTERY

HEY ANDRIUS? [REDACTED] EVIDENCE=LYNCH PLEASE.

I was reading page 2 on my phone in class and I was like: "quicklynch AND faith bonus!?? GENIUS <3 ANDRIUS!!!" but I didn't have time to post it, and then I got home and got sidetracked plus expldoed when I saw the had been lynched so now:
<3 ANDRIUS SPECIFICALLY AS WELL AS THE ALLEY-OOP FROM JACK FOR MAKING IT HAPPEN

@Katsuki:

So *where* exactly do you see Fate thinking along the same lines as you?

That all being said, AGar, Empking, and Nachomamma need to get their rears in gear and post.

[Magua]

In your skimming, you miss the size 200 "YES YES YES" and you focus on that.

Interesting.

@Empking:

What's the point of voting RayFrost if you're going to unvote and vote Gud in the same post?

[Magua]

@Guderian:

Who are the scums?

[Magua]

UNVOTE, VOTE: MAGUA

What was the purpose of the question asked in post #46?

@Empking: I do! And he's TOWN this game!

Would it *kill* you to quote that so I didn't have to go and look for it?

The value was twofold:
1) To get people to make stands on what they'd be doing if they weren't bandwagonning. Y'know, the typical point of the RVS.
2) To tweak Andrius and see if he'd have an aneurysm.

[Magua]

I'm posting here too. Keep your pants on.

(Please. *Please* keep your pants on.)

I'll hammer once two people answer this question: Who would you be voting if Vezok wasn't in this game?

Just for you, Magua.

But why just two? And why did it matter? You were killing a guy, and usually once the killing starts happening, RVS is over.

Why not two? More than one, less than three. One is stupid; shouldn't even bother. Could've done three, but I didn't want to get two responses and then either have to say "screw it" and vote anyways.

Getting more information -- any information -- out of the policy lynch beats, in my mind, getting no information out of it. This was my attempt to get some information out of it before it happened.

Nacho: Do you feel that the single post by magua is scummier than the evidence presented against gud/mothrax/spice/kitoari? How is it that big of a deal?

Not necessarily. It needs addressing because scum were someone was able to squeeze in a last minute kill and that question by magua seemed a lot like stalling so he could decide just who he wanted to kill.

So, I want to make sure I understand this: the cunning plan is that I asked this question in post #46 at 8:32 CST in order to "stall" so that I could then vote in #49 at 8:33 CST, instead of simply submitting a kill and then voting?

Seriously?

[Magua]

Pre-emptively: Screw anyone who quotes this post and says "IIoA." I will eat your babies.

--HOLY ORDER--


-The Fallen Seraph team currently possesses 165 Faith.

This is incredibly informative if true. There's two possibilities:
1) It's fake, from the Fallen Seraph team. Doubt this. The global communication power is probably non-trivial (Still, Small Voice was 40 faith) and can only be used once.
2) It's real, and it tells us something about how much the Fallen Seraph team gets from lynches. I doubt this is Still, Small Voice -- I believe it's a power invoked by the town Seraphs that simply broadcasts the amount of faith they have publicly.

To wit: I'm starting with these assumptions from MoHO.
Start with 100 faith. Gain 10% faith per RL day.

Therefore:
Scum Seraphs started with 100 faith.
They gained X faith from the quicklynch.
They gained (100 + X) * 10% from the day.
(100 + X) * 1.1 = 165
100 + X = 150
X = 50

Since the battery power was 100%, this would mean that the scum gain 50% of the battery power from a lynch. (Scum gained 33% of the battery in MoHO, so this is an improvement for them)

THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT:

[/size] It's 99% certain that the town seraphs gain 100% of the battery power from the lynch (as in MoHO). This means that we gain

twice

the faith from a lynch that the scum do. Someone spent faith to either find this out, or tell us this, or both. That makes it important.

tl; dr: We are heavily incentivized to *not* let these days drag on until deadline. Every two points of battery power left when we lynch is worth an extra faith for us.

[Magua]

Re: RhinoX. Trying to clear people based on the nightkill submission is a pointless exercise until you know if "attempted the impossible" is NK flavor or not, because that totally reverses where the suspicion falls. I still don't think it's NK flavor, FWIW.

I see what you're saying, but none of the other possibilities I've considered make any logical sense, and I really don't want to wait until Day 3. It's more of a "note to self" exercise than anything, so it won't be my sole focus for today. This thread is more interesting, anyway.

And, just as I'm ready to start, I realize how utterly fruitless an expedition this would be. The only thing I'd get out of it would be, "Oh, hey, one of these XX people are the scum." Yeeeah, so useful. >_<

So I'm scratching this off now.

Essentially. If it's a NK, it's not incredibly useful information. You know that the three people who hadn't confirmed yet didn't submit it, and there's some level of confidence that those who hadn't posted didn't submit it..but that doesn't mean they couldn't be scum. All it really tells you is that of the 13 people who had voted and so had plenty of time to submit it, at least one is likely to be scum, which we already knew.

It's much more informative if it's *not* a night kill, as that clears those who were on around the "Andriusteria" and could've foreseen there was a lynch, from having *any kill at all that day*. This is what I'm holding it out for. We'll likely find out after this day's lynch.

[Magua]

That all being said, AGar, Empking, and Nachomamma need to get their rears in gear and post.

Aw what? No love?

You had not yet confirmed when I wrote that. They had.

[Magua]

I hadn't planned on posting this tonight since I'm busy with essays and what not, but all this LOLOL WE QUICKLYNCH LULZ is pissing me off.

Will be making a post tomorrow why continual quick-lynching this early on is scummy.

Who...for the love of God, WHO is doing "continual quick-lynching"?

How about this: Instead of going on about something that's not happening, you give three FoSes.

[Magua]

My point is that the benefits of the early mana rush for the Dark Seraphs far outweigh those for the Light Seraphs.

Please answer these three questions:

1. Do you think the vezok quicklynch D1 was a town or anti-town action? (Yes / No)

2. Do you think there is a quicklynch happening D2? (Yes / No)

3. Who do you FoS? (Three names, please)

[Magua]

Like:
2. AlmasterGM: Vezokpiraka lynch impetus.
3. Andrius: Vezokpiraka lynch impetus.
6. Equinox: You are my favorite above all others.
7. Fate: Incredibly annoying player to read. But, very active and making things happen.
11. inHimshallibe: Much like Fate.
17. mothrax: Reads town. Acts town.
20. RayFrost: Weak town read.

Don't Like:
4. Baby Spice: Gets on vezokpiraka lynch. Thinks its a good idea. Later says she reread the MoHO rules and thinks the quicklynch was a bad idea. These actions are out-of-order.
5. Empking: Mostly filler/semantics argument.
9. Guderian: Under a lot of pressure. Disappeared. Not a good sign.
12. Jack: Jack doing something incredibly scummy D1 is, believe it or not, a null tell. Outside of this, he's done little. I keep expecting to see something amazing from Jack. I keep not seeing it.
14. Kitoari: A whole bunch of one line posts. Most of them are the essence of filler text. All useful content can be summarized in ISO post #19: "Guderian is scummier than Jack." Everything else is waste.
18. Nachomamma8: Filler posts only so far.
22. singersigner: Very few stances taken. Mostly-setup based. No stances on players.
24. VasudeVa: Filler given is so far the highest quality filler of those in this part of the list. But is still filler.

Can Die In A Fire As Far As I'm Concerned:
1. AGar: Has yet to post. He's annoyed that he's scum in this game as well as MoHO.
8. Furcolow: Has yet to post.
13. Katsuki: Posts have yet to indicate she's even reading this game.

[Magua]

Silly mods with their hidden text. Looks like it tracks the number of days since the last post.

@Guderian:

Hallo. Would like to talk to you.

And although I was joking (mostly) when I said that Agar drew scum again in this game, I'm becoming more serious about that. He's active on site in other games, which means he's actively avoiding this one.

Unvote

VOTE: Agar

[Magua]

Also

@Everyone

: I'm very strongly of the belief that we should end the day by a week from today (that is, next Friday, January 21st), if not sooner.

[Magua]

The irony is actually people like Fate complaining that Furcolow is spamming. That's some deep recursion right there. But I support Furcolow actually *posting content*, and the rest of y'all can deal.

Do you think that your vote on AGar is pushing us in the right direction for that?

No, my vote on AGar had nothing to do with ending the day soon.

Re: Guderian/Fate: Guderian suggests Fate policylynch (more or less) in the *signup thread* (that is, before game, before role PMs, etc) for Blackest Night: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 5#p2686645 so it seems pretty solid. What I don't like here is Guderian up and disappearing. Not only does it look scummy, but it's antitown regardless of his alignment.

I can support Kitoari lynch.

Unvote

, VOTE: Kitoari. ISO posts #16, #17, #19 in particular.
Also, don't like VasudeVa. Going after the easy Katsuki-lynch. VasudeVa voting Guderian is another reason that I'm ok with lynching Kitoari.

[Magua]

I've seen nothing indicating an "easy Katsuki-lynch" per se.

Maybe I'm just misremembering. Help me out a bit.

Katsuki is an inviting target. She's not a strong presence, she doesn't defend well, and she just naturally looks scummy. VV seems aware of all these things, but treats them as scummy instead of null for her.

Magua ISO #26 wrote:Can Die In A Fire As Far As I'm Concerned:


1. AGar: Has yet to post. He's annoyed that he's scum in this game as well as MoHO.
8. Furcolow: Has yet to post.
13. Katsuki: Posts have yet to indicate she's even reading this game.

Congratulations on quoting what I post. CDIAFAFAIC means I can't read them because they've posted exactly zero relevant things to the game. This =/= scum. You want to quote the category above that. The one that already included Kitoari.

@Jack:

If I'm scum, does that make Kitoari scum or town?

@Fate:

If I'm bussing scum, and Kitoari flips town, does that make me scum or town?

[Magua]

@Jack:

If I'm scum, does that make Kitoari scum or town?

This has always been a bad scum defensive move. "hmm, the pro-town response to people calling me scum is to ask clarifying questions to ascertain their sincerity, thus I shall prove my townieness by doing so".

Your follow up is to ignore the above and make a deal out of how I didn't answer the question.

Nah. My followup will be to ask why something that you consider pro-town would be a bad scum defensive move.

Yeahh. I've seen Katsuki scum twice.I was her scumbuddy once. I've caught her as scum in another game. I think that I can read her and I wanted to by voting her. However, you have a weird little distancing relationship with her that feels unnatural. You first questioned her for a long time about some stuff she said and then you dropped it and you immediately went to other people. Feels unatural as fuck, reads as distancing. TRy again.

You've seen Katsuki-scum twice, you've been her scum-buddy once. You're really good at reading her. Yet you're more certain about me than about her, and you don't seem to give a rats' ass about getting anyone else to vote her.

So what you're saying is that: In your ISO #26, your incredibly long 'Don't Like' list is your 'Scum list' and your short 'Can Die In A Fire' List is your.....neutral lurker list?

Correct. Shocking, I know.

Or, wait, what? You thought I said "lol the 2 ppl who havent posted r both scumz w/ the girl not talkin bout the game" and you thought that was fine and not worth commenting on the first time you read it?

[Magua]

Hay Jack, since you're here... how about you tell us your

top four

for scum?

kit
magua
gud
baby

@Jack:

Do you think both Kitoari and Guderian are scum?

Nah. My followup will be to ask why something that you consider pro-town would be a bad scum defensive move.

The bad scum defensive move is doing it because they think it looks pro town.

Getting people to answer questions and take positions is the definition of a pro-town conversation.

You've seen Katsuki-scum twice, you've been her scum-buddy once. You're really good at reading her. Yet you're more certain about me than about her, and you don't seem to give a rats' ass about getting anyone else to vote her.

She ignored my vote, and hopped onto the Kitoari wagon.
You're hopping onto the Kitoari wagon.

What an awful coincidence.

You somehow fail to address everything that I said in your reply. I could repeat it, but it's quoted right there, so I won't.

I call bullshit, backtracking scum.
I cannot consider that incredibly long 'Don't Like' list to be your scum list and that 'Can Die in Fire' list as your neutral lurkers + Katsuki list. And besides, who puts neutral lurkers in a 'Can die in a Fire' list when there were plenty of lurkers in the 'Don't Like' list.
Why was Guderian, also a lurker, not in the Neutral lurkers + Katsuki? Why the hell is Katsuki even there if she was a Neutral Lurker?

So then you think the post was "lol the ppl who havent posted at all r the scumz, votepl0x"? A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

Guderian had posted content relevant to this game. Katsuki had not. I even say *in that post* that she had posted, but that none of it was relevant to this game. You quoted it.

I was not aware there was a maximum allowed length to my "Don't Like" list. Upon inspection, I also don't care.

After your long argument with Katsuki, I cannot see why you two would suddenly hop onto the Kitoari wagon without even raising suspicion to each other. Think that you can get away with that, huh?

My argument with Katsuki is entirely that she should read the game and participate. Feel free to quote anything of mine that says otherwise. Furthermore, feel free to ignore quotes of mine like these that support my point and not yours:

Man, I really don't like Katsuki's posts. Not in an "obvscumdie" way, but in a "you can't be serious way." Why play a large theme if you're going to complain about 7 pages? Seriously.

[Magua]

Hay Jack, since you're here... how about you tell us your

top four

for scum?

kit
magua
gud
baby

@Jack:

Do you think both Kitoari and Guderian are scum?

WHAT THE **** ***** IS THIS? ARE YOU JOKING WITH ME?

No, I'm not joking with you. The question is "Are you listing your top suspicions, or are you calling an entire scumteam?"

I've seen this garbage before so don't try it. "Someone called me scum, responding this way is pro town so if I do it I can deflect their suspicion". It's transparent. Also, your "getting people to take positions" involves asking me if I think people on my scum list are scum.

For instance, especially now with Kitoari flipping scum, I don't think Guderian is scum. I was wondering if you were going to feel similar, or different, which is why I asked.

Other stuff: Glad to see more communication from the Seraphs. This is the town Seraph doing it. Obviously either has a cost now, or is an ability that needed to be bought.

Plus, your backtracking is scummier. Am I supposed to only go after people I'm confident in reading?

One would assume you *would* go after the people you were confident in reading. By going after me, are you saying you're *less* confident in me? You ignoring everything else I wrote that showed that your quoting was opportunistic is noted.

Anyways, I doubt Guderian is scum. I would like to see him get prodded or replaced.
I read VasudeVa as scum because of the disconnect between him being sure Katsuki is scum, but then turning around voting me.
AGar is scum.
Baby Spice is probably scum.

Interesting differences between Agar's #530:

Kitoari Iso...

Lurks, doesn't commit to any reads...

This feels too easy. But he can be lynched anyways, because I'm not gonna catch myself in that bullshit.

...

I'd rather Gud be the play today, but Kit can go too.

Which says all of this about how Kitoari can be lynched but doesn't go for it, compared to Empking's #532:

Unvote

Vote: Kit

The wagon seems to be very much a town one, the reasoning is good and I want a quickish lynch.

Where he doesn't give nearly as much justification, but does actually vote and hammer.

VOTE: AGar

[Magua]

MAGUA COULD ACTUALLY BE USEFUL IN A SCUM QT.

<3

But, why is it so obvious (to everyone but me, apparently) that Kitoari and Guderian are together? Because this thing, I do not see it.

[Magua]

@Fate, Andrius:

AGar opinions.

[Magua]

Double-glow on RayFrost means that either both town / scum seraphs wanted to support his post, or town seraph did it twice. The second glow, at the least, costs faith (if not both of them).

Although I appreciate the sentiment, disagree with BS' stance that smoke on my #526 meant agreement with me. Smoke on my #526 is to signal disapproval of me or what I was saying or both. If the seraph wanted to express approval of what I'd saying, they'd glow the post (like with RF's).

It is safer by far to assume that a smoke/glow has come from the town seraph instead of the scum seraph, inasmuch as I'm 90% that the cost is cheaper for the town seraph than the scum seraph, and even if it costs the same, town seraph gains more faith from lynches.


Went back and read.

[Magua]

[expletive deleted] copy/paste.

Went back and read. Difference in NK flavor for Rhino makes me think it was not a scumkill. Even with two factions, they both had the same flavor kill of "Corrupted". Here it's "sniped" (as was hinted in the flavor in the OP). Unsure of how it all fits together, but noted.

Guderian is town, ragequitting at Fate, who is also town. Lynching Guderian is a bad move. AGar is a good lynch.

Thrown for a loop by Andrius' #591. Strikes me as horribly scummy. I highly agree with singer's #592.

[Magua]

@Almaster:

AGar opinion. Please don't say "null" without at least addressing the things that he's posted.

Given that Guderian is at L-1, if you disagree with the lynch, why are you not voting someone different? Why give three scumreads and then vote none of them?

[Magua]

I was right about Guderian. Was wrong on AGar. Sorry about that, AGar.

Dollars to doughnuts, "Attempted the impossible" is the odd-day scumkill. "Sniped" is even-day scumkill.

Furcolow is so obv-town it hurts.

Who posted that list of people who weren't on site during the quicklynch day 1?

IHSIB posted it, ISO #38

Fate's #668 and Andrius' #674 are some pretty scummy pieces of posting. I have big town reads on both both from the vezok lynch, and then from the Kitoari lynch, but these sorts of posts are both lazy and unhelpful.

What the fuck was with that hammer? You people know that Seraphs have a Maximum Faith right?
PS. Furco is Town. A moron, but Town.

People I am willing to vote for:
Baby Spice
Magua
Katsuki

Vote: Magua
Don't understand why people keep defending him.

1) We know Town Seraph has been spending faith. Announcement about scum-Seraph faith, doctor, large glow on Empking.
2) What happened to your "confident read" on Katsuki that you're still not acting on?
3) Agreed that Furcolow is town.

Bro-drius wrote:Vas, what do you think of Nacho?

He's one of them president guys right? He's consistent to my meta on him, he's a lazy BWer. Not much beyond that.

Are you kidding me? You're asked what your read is on someone, and you can't even be bothered to find out who they are? I was under the impression you were supposed to be one of the better players here.

@Almaster:

Why did you not vote D3 when you posted your reads?

[Magua]

Revised reads:

Still Town -- these reads haven't changed for me.
2. AlmasterGM
3. Andrius
7. Fate
11. inHimshallibe
17: mothrax
20: RayFrost

New Town
8: Furcolow: Furcolow's posts D4 scream town to me. Not smart or insightful or even well-thought out, but town.
13. Katsuki: A fair amount of this is anti-VasudeVa bias at this point. The other part is the number of people jumping on the Katsuki wagon for because of her "obvious meta" without even a second thought to the fact that this "obvious meta" was wrong about Guderian D3.

Scum:
4. Baby Spice: I waffle on this one, but for now, still falls under scum.
12. Jack: I hear so much about this Jack. But again, I see so little.
18. Nachomamma8: Incredibly little given to this game.
22: singersigner: Whole pages worth of words. Very little content. A lot of reactions to things that happen, but very few stances taken.
24. VasudeVa: His words do not correlate with his actions.

VOTE: VasudeVa

[Magua]

Since you asked:

I am seeing nothing but bad things on Katsuki. Katsuki vs. Magua, katsuki seemed extra slow and seemed like she was avoiding to answer by feigning ignorance. I don't remember her being that dull. She was also thickheaded when I was questioning her in LOTR Mafia.

Vote: Katsuki

SCUMSUKI, WE MEET AGAIN. HAVE AT THEE.

Translation: "Scumread on Katsuki"

Magua + Katsuki + Guderian scumteam.

LYNCH AHOYY!!

Vote: Magua because I'm more sure here.

Translation: "Stronger scumread on Magua, scumread on Katsuki"

Katsuki is an inviting target. She's not a strong presence, she doesn't defend well, and she just naturally looks scummy. VV seems aware of all these things, but treats them as scummy instead of null for her.

Yeahh. I've seen Katsuki scum twice.I was her scumbuddy once. I've caught her as scum in another game. I think that I can read her and I wanted to by voting her. However, you have a weird little distancing relationship with her that feels unnatural. You first questioned her for a long time about some stuff she said and then you dropped it and you immediately went to other people. Feels unatural as fuck, reads as distancing. TRy again.

Translation: "If I have a scumread on Katsuki, it is confident. I do not have a scumread on her currently because you started posting."
Alternative translation: "I voted Katsuki for pressure, but removed it before I got any reads off of it."

You've seen Katsuki-scum twice, you've been her scum-buddy once. You're really good at reading her. Yet you're more certain about me than about her, and you don't seem to give a rats' ass about getting anyone else to vote her.

She ignored my vote, and hopped onto the Kitoari wagon.
You're hopping onto the Kitoari wagon.

What an awful coincidence.

Translation: "Here's some scummy things Magua and Katsuki have done."

People I am willing to vote for:
Baby Spice
Magua
Katsuki

Translation: "Scumread on Magua, scumread on Katsuki"
Alternative translation: "I would like to lynch Katsuki, but do not have a scumread on her."

Which is it?
Is Katsuki scum? If so, your read on her must be confident.
Is Katsuki not scum? If so, why are you willing to vote for her?

[Magua]

Hmmm, I have some iso's to read. Someone who knows Vas play: is he scum?

If you're not going to read the game and make up your own mind, replace out. Asking "Should I sheep?" is at best bloody useless and at worst bloody scummy.

This goes for Katsuki as well.

Actually...I'd like everyone to answer this question:

Who are your top three suspects for scum at this point?

I'll go first: VasudeVa, singersigner, Jack

(And before you pithily reply "I've already said", take two minutes out of your incredibly busy day and just quote it, kthx?)

[Magua]

Fate. Get this through your skull.

Katsuki + Furcolow are not a scumteam.

Furcolow, at the least, is town, and I'm pretty sure that Katsuki is town too. Useless town. Sure. BUT STILL TOWN.

You are going after easy targets, and I really wish you'd stop doing it.

Now, answer my question: Three FoSes. And I will eat your babies if you say "Katsuki, Furcolow, and one TBD"

[Magua]

Furcolow wasn't distracting any effort. Fate came in and had a spam-fest with Andrius, and then Katsuki joined in. *That's* what's distracting effort.

Fate, you were saying the same goddamn things about Guderian (as was Andrius), and look where that got you.

Andrius, *WHY* are you voting Furcolow if you think he's town? WHY? Are you *that* much of a sheep that you'll just BAH BAH BAH because *one* person says so?

What. The. Fuck.

@Fate:

VasudeVa read. Now.

[Magua]

Get off your high horse, and learn to play nice with the other boys and girls.

[Magua]

FATE IS ON THE MOVE AND HAS HIS BRAINLESS LACKEY KAT TO FOLLOW HIM.
LET'S LYNCH FURCOLOW.

It seems he has two.

Magua calling both Fate and Andrius out for scummy posting, but still calling them town for the ONE Vezok lynch is bad. Are they town other than that?

Fate is stirring the pot. I don't think he's scum. I think he's playing moronically. Still think he's town.
Andrius.......I'm really bugged by Andrius' sheeping of Furcolow, *especially* his calling Katsuki brainless as he himself does the exact same thing. Not sure what to make of it at this point.

Furcolow flip gives us *nothing* except one less mislynch before we lose. Furcolow flips town, and what do we get? Nothing. You going to lynch Fate after that? You all are going to say, "Lol, Fate, we know we all sheeped you like wool was going out of style, sheeped you like the shepherd was hadn't gotten any in three weeks, sheeped you like brainless zombies sheep Michael Jackson, but, er, now you have to do die."

That's bullshit.

Especially Andrius' "I think Furcolow is town but I'm voting him because Fate said so." That's complete bullshit.

[Magua]

@Mod:

Furcolow is voting Katsuki, not himself (post #747)

Case after accounting hw. Hopefully.

@Andrius:

Please to be posting case pl0x.

And while I'm on the subject of Andrius:

This next quote is a response to me asking for three FoSes. Andrius replies:

Nacho, Vas, Baby Spice.

This is followed up with:

OK FINE LETS LYNCH KATSUKI I CAN DO THAT.
Unvote, Vote: Katsuki
Though honestly, if VV is scum Kat is prob. town. I still think that.

Fencesitting. "If guy I think is scum is scum, person I'm voting is town."

YOU KNOW WHAT, FATE?
FUCK IT.

Vote: Furcolow
AND IF HE FLIPS SCUM YOU MAY PUT A BULLET IN MY HEAD.
I WILL PLEAD WITH VI FOR FLAVOR.
FOR YOU.

LETS DO THIS.

"I think he's town, but let's vote him. In fact, if he flips scum, then lynch me too."

Andrius, explain WTF you're doing. Use small words. I'm slow.

singersigner:

Actually, I need a quick revision - if Furcolow is GF, I'll gladly lynch Andrius. If Furcolow is scum but NOT GF, one of Andrius/Fate is most certainly scum, and I think it's Fate, as he's using the meta/policy-case as a bus.

That said, I still don't think Furcolow is anything but Incorrect Town.

This.

Except either way I think it's Andrius for his craptastic push on Gud earlier.

@singersigner:

Please explain this stance ("Furcolow is town") combined with your vote on Furcolow. Again, keep in mind I'm slow.

[Magua]

I’m ready to see a flip to get answers once and for all VOTE: Fucolow.

It's not so much that I think he's scum (like someone said stupid=/=scum), it's that he has odd connections that need to be weeded out. The only way to do that is see his flip, especially since this whole godfather, no godfather business. He's been contributing to town in a detrimental way. I'd also be fine with a VV lynch, since he seems to have awkward contradicting stances that's not presenting himself in the best of light.

Or Andrius. That thing with Gud really didn't settle right with me. But I'd rather see Furc dead than Andrius right now. Andrius will give better reads if he keeps talking.

What godfather business? Fate mentions it, yes, but what reason do you have to think that Furcolow is godfather aside from "Fate said he is"?

Tell me about Furcolow's odd connections. What do you learn if...
Furcolow is town?
Furcolow is scum?

[Magua]

Cool. Three FoSes, please.

Furcolow, three FoSes please.

[Magua]

Hate being scum?

I don't see why I would hate being scum considering my record as town is like 2-15 or something like that.

Gee. Wonder why that might be.

Three FoSes please, Katsuki.

[Magua]

Screw this.

Fate, Katsuki + Furcolow isn't a scumteam. I've said it before. I'll say it again. Stop spazzing out. Vote someone who's really scum, like VasudeVa.

Furcolow is idiot VI.
Katsuki is idiot VI.
That's all there is to it. Pursuing these black holes of activity doesn't help you get reads on diddly/squat.

And before you go all CAPS LOCK RAGE on me, you were fucking wrong about Guderian, so just stop it. It's not amusing. It's not helpful, because you just let everyone else lurk through it disguised by your activity.

Hell, even Nachomamma has had more on-point content than you.

So start being protown and actually interacting with people you can get a read on.

[Magua]

No movement to VV whatsoever. Disconcerting.

Why is it disconcerting? Wouldn't it be more disconcerting if there was a lot of movement towards it?

[Magua]

@Nachomamma, Andrius:

The world would be better if you voted.

[Magua]

EBWOP: Nachomamma has voted. Nevermind that, then.

[Magua]

Are you going to respond to your voting of Katsuki and Furcolow while saying that both were town?

[Magua]

So why did you vote Furcolow?

[Magua]

@VasudeVa:

Do you want me dead for any reason other than calling me scum?

Second question: You say I'm backtracking on my categories. Quote me on something (anything) that says I ever thought Katsuki was scum. I already asked you for this once in #526, and you ignored it, so I'm giving you a second chance.

[Magua]

EBWOP:

@VasudeVa:

Do you want me dead for any reason other than calling

you

scum?

I fail.

[Magua]

@VasudeVa:

Do you want me dead for any reason other than calling me scum?

Second question: You say I'm backtracking on my categories. Quote me on something (anything) that says I ever thought Katsuki was scum. I already asked you for this once in #526, and you ignored it, so I'm giving you a second chance.

We've had this argument before.

1. You put Katsuki in the Can Die in Fire list.
2. Sometime later, I voted for Katsuki.
3. You called my vote as a vote for an easy lynch which it clearly wasn't. (Katsuki had only one vote with no momentum.)
4. I called you out that "Hey dude, you called Katsuki scum since she was in the CDIF list."
5. You were like "Yo dude, that wasn't my scum list. Scums were in the Don't Like list"
6. I was like "Yo srs bro? Why is your DL list longer than your Like list?
7. You were like "That'z how I roll bro."
8. And then I was like "Hey man, you're looking for a reason to attack me via inaccurate statements and I'm calling you out on it. Plus, you CAN'T be serious that your CDIF list is your neutral lurker list and your long DL list is your scum list. That's like incredibly unproportioned and you are like, attacking people indiscriminately."
9. And then you were like "Yo dude, you are scum I'll vote you because YOUR are inaccurate with your statements.
10. And now I'm like 'What? YOU were the first inaccurate one here dude!'

....or something like that.
Don't wanna dig quotes, I'm a little too high on weed. In fact, I need to get away from this keyboard I don't even know what I'm typng anymore. HEY FUTURE VAS, DIG THOSE QUOTES UP SOON OKAY.

I agree with everything that you said, up until 9. Replace your #9 with "And then Magua said, if you think my CDIAF list is *not* my lurker list, show me where I say Katsuki is scum. Or why I would attack you for voting Katsuki."

IOW, if you're going to whine that I'm misrepresenting you and what your Katsuki vote meant, the least you could do is ensure that you're not misrepresenting me. No one else thinks my CDIAF list was the scum list. Just you. No one else thinks I've attacked Katsuki for being scum. Just you.

[Magua]

][qipte] Do you want me dead for any reason other than calling you scum[/quote
I want you dead because you are attacking indiscriminately and are a bad influence to the children. THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN.

Who am I attacking indiscriminately?

[Magua]

WHEN DID I EVER SAY HE WAS?

THATS MY POINT. HES TRYING TO GET ME TO CHANGE DIRECTION, TO ALTER MY SCUMREADS, CALLING ME TOWN ALL THE WHILE TO MAKE ME FEEL GOOD.

ALL THE WHILE TO USE ME AS HIS PUPPET AND LOOK LIKE THE "TOWNIE LEASHING FATE SO HE DOESNT GO ALL CRAZY LOOK HOW GOOD I AM"

IM HAVIN NONE OF IT

Tell me which of my scumreads you disagree with: Baby Spice, Jack, Nachomamma8, singersigner, VasudeVa

[Magua]

In case it's not bloody obvious, I am not going to vote Katsuki.

[Magua]

So, Fate (and, in general, everyone, but mostly Fate), when Katsuki flips town, are you going to be more suspicious or less suspicious of me?

[Magua]

Fate is probably scum.

Just sayin' that now since I'm gonna die anyways.

DO yoU MIND READING THE THREAD ?AERHJQRHSRTJSRTHJ
YOU DO THIS EVERY GAME

She's not going to read the thread. She's just going to flip town.

[Magua]

So, Fate (and, in general, everyone, but mostly Fate), when Katsuki flips town, are you going to be more suspicious or less suspicious of me?

GRAAAAH.

This is town madness Magua. No scum would say "hey look I'm saying X will flip town. Will I get town points after he flips?"

BUT GODDAMNT STOP TELLING ME WHO TO SUSPECT. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT KATSUKI IS TOWN AND WHEN HE FLIPS SCUM THE EGG ON YOUR FACE WILL BE PRICELESS ENOUGH TO MAKE A GLORIOUS OMELETTE.

There is no evidence that Katsuki is scum. Which is the huge problem I have with your total and complete fixation on her. Katsuki saying "OMG the person voting me is scum" is *not* a scumtell. It is stupid, yes, it is pointless, yes. BUT IT IS NOT SCUMMY FOR HER. KATSUKI DOES THIS AS TOWN.

Your [redacted] means zero, because I have a [redacted] as well, so don't wave that as an argument at me. From what I see of Katsuki's play, in the last two months, she only engages in the game if she's scum, third party, or PR.

You can suspect anyone you damn well please, but you can't stop me from telling you THAT I THINK YOU'RE WRONG. And your concentration on Katsuki and then Furcolow and then Katsuki again I find to be incredibly jarring. Why don't you give reads on some of the people who *aren't* VIs? You know, the ones where having a read on them would be *useful*.

If she flips scum, it is two for the price of one, if she flips town it gets rid of an antitown slot that refuses to play the game.

That is *horrible* reasoning. At least Fate actually thinks she's scum.

[Magua]

Fate knew town was getting the win from the dead thread, so I'm not sure what his outburst here is supposed to be achieving.

Vi, how come Nacho was allowed to give doctor / memetic vig twice? From the dead thread, I assumed it was simply one of his role shenanigans things, but his role PM states that he can't use most of the orders more than once, just like with the seraphs.

[Magua]

But, Nacho doesn't try to use it *until* the endgame situation.

Also, I'd like to see the seraph QT's, unless I missed them somewhere.

[Magua]

But when he *does* try to use it, I'm curious why she doesn't say, "No, you can't grant doctor, you already granted it once, look at your role PM" or similar.

Also, I just saw this in your scum QT, D2:

Kill: Magua

Trust me.

Lulz.

[Magua]

Guess I misread Nacho's role PM. Oops.

The difference was reduced, compared to MoHO -- in MoHO, scum seraphs got 33% of the battery faith, here they got 50%.

My take on the matter is twofold:

1) Scumseraphs get in a position to know who they're giving the orders to and why. Once that's done, there's no guesswork done on their end. If anything, I'd say the scumseraphs should probably start off knowing who the scum are (that is, just remove Soul Harvest and make that the game start state). Informed minority and all that. Townseraphs, on the other hand, have to go by their reads and incomplete information -- look at how they almost granted memetic vig to Fate, for example. Townseraphs should end up using more holy orders, and more randomly, than scumseraphs, IMO, because there's will be less accurate and less coordinated.

2) Quicklynching ended up generating a lot of faith for the townseraphs, but in the manner of quicklynches, they also weren't very accurate -- only Kitoari was on the money.