American Gods Mafia - Game over

[Apokalyptika]

Completed games: Newbie 751 (town, endgamed, scum win), Newbie 836 (scum, lynched Day 3, town win), and Ladies Night (town, survived, town win).
Current games: This one

Random vote: Nexus

[Apokalyptika]

Unvote, Vote: SGR

Wrath's posting isn't great, but I think it's at least somewhat sincere. SGR doesn't give me the same feelings, plus the whole "Town is DOOMED if you vote for me" never sits well.

Elect: Gaggle

Gaggle's giving me fairly competent town feelings at the moment. Also, I think that having a hydra in the back room would be more helpful as town (and might slip up more easily as scum). Also, for the record, I wouldn't auto-elect myself, since I've got less experience than most of the other people in this game and thus wouldn't be as helpful.

[Apokalyptika]

Elect: farside

I'm not seeing the Ghost-hate. Ani's last post is amusing; not necessarily because of the vote, but because of his failure to acknowledge that he was doing exactly what SGR said. Worth keeping an eye on, but I still like my SGR vote more (and I agree with Tasky as regards the scumminess of SGR's giving up post).

Looking at the interaction between OGML and AGar, OGML did misrepresent SGR, which is never good, but I'm actually getting fairly town feelings about him.

Wrath's completely dropped off the face of the earth in the last few pages, I see; the game's been moving pretty fast so it's not the biggest scumtell in the world, but still noteworthy.

Preview edit: I had a thing saying I hoped Llama would post before going V/LA and he did! That accusation against Ghost actually makes a fair bit of sense, I'll have to look into it more.

[Apokalyptika]

See its not lining up lynches, its conditionally stating that if SGR flips scum I will lynch you too.

That's still lining up lynches, you see. You're saying you don't want me dead today, you want me dead tomorrow.

The conditional of "if" doesn't apply here

, because you seem dead-set on SGR-scum, so you using that word is just trying to play semantics in your favor.

So I'm a bit late on this, but I'm really not liking this post. Whether OGML is "dead-set" on SGR being scum doesn't matter in this case, because it doesn't change his actual alignment. The way AGar's talking about it, especially the emphasized part, it seems like he's a little too sure about SGR's alignment. Maybe even a little too I'm-scumbuddies-with-SGR sure.

Unvote, Vote: AGar

Also,

Elect: Ythill

.

Now I need to digest all these big posts that have sprung up.

[Apokalyptika]

1) The thing is, AGar, this is day 1. There are no flips, no night actions, nothing. The ONLY thing that we can base scumreads off of is people's words, so nobody can be completely sure of scum except scum. So, even if you're personally sure someone is scum, even if you'd bet your life on it, you're still going to consider the possibility of being wrong, unless you're scum. For instance, I'm considering the possibility of being wrong on you. If I am wrong, then we're disagreeing over semantics, and we might end up with another pointless fight, which is the last thing town needs. However, I'm confident enough to take the risk. Anyone else want to join me?

2) So the Ghost/SGR fight was null all over the place. GG/farside, however, is far more interesting, leading me to believe that there may be scum there. If I had to pick one, it would definitely be GG. That being said, I'm not too inclined to unelect them at the moment. I have null-to-town feelings about everyone else currently going backstage, and I'm sure that everyone else can tell them to keep their squabbling to the game thread.

3) Welcome, MoI. Any comment on my AGar case?

4) I read over OGML's posts again. Not the towniest posting I've ever seen, but not as scummy as AGar. I could actually see them being scumbuddies, though.

5) I really want to hear more from ani, werewolf, and vezok.

[Apokalyptika]

I agree that Nexus' 379 was scumtacular. However, I think I see a better vote candidate at the moment (well, more than one, but...)

Speaking of which, vezok: Still waiting for your AGar case. Actually, looking over your posts, I don't see you taking a single solid stance this whole game. Very sketchy.

Unvote, Vote: vezok

Until later, AGar.

Also, hi LynchMePls.

Preview edit: Saint, how are you so sure vezok's town?

Preview edit #2: Also, how on earth does SGR's quoted post give him towncred? My mind boggles. Coaching of vezok at the bottom of that last post, perhaps? Oh my, this is getting exciting. Also, you've got MoI as a suspect there, but you're still electing him...curiouser and curiouser.

Big Ol' FoS: Saint

Preview edit #3: Nice self-vote.

[Apokalyptika]

Saint: if you don't think MoI is scum, then why would you bring him into the conversation you were having with vezok? Why wouldn't you say "What do you think of Ythill and Farside being scum together?" Also, not hammering is not scummy, since almost nobody was ready to be done with the day. And look, since the day continued, I'm getting lots of information that I wouldn't have otherwise.

[Apokalyptika]

OGML: Why am I a town read? Sorry but having me in your town pile really makes me feel you are trying to go along with some other people.

Which people? Why do you think it would be advantageous to have you as a townread, as opposed to somebody else? Do you think the rest of his reads are genuine? Analysis: please give it.

Yes, I read the posts on Ghostlin. I just see better lynch candidates.

Wow, I'm not sure I realized until now just how much the OGML wagon drifted apart.

[Apokalyptika]

Evidently, vezok doesn't see fit to talk to me. I feel quite unloved. That being said,

Unvote, Vote: OGML

. vezok's clearly a waste of my vote today, and of the three leading wagons, OGML is the one I'm most comfortable with by far.

Also,

Unelect GG, Elect: LMP

I think LMP is a viable backstage candidate, and I think it would be entirely healthy to have some actual debate about backstage elects instead of being so complacent.

People I feel are scummy at the moment: vezok, Saint, OGML

People I feel are towny at the moment: Ythill, farside, LMP, MoI

[Apokalyptika]

Hey Ythill,

I'm not getting a scummy vibe from WC's post. It's only natural to be somewhat suspicious of someone rushing to hammer, even if you find the lynch target scummy. Also, I skimmed the Cyclic Experimentation game, in which WC was town, and his posting seems consistent with what I've seen here.

[Apokalyptika]

To whoever asked, OGML's 20 through 24 are scummy, and he disappeared for long enough to derail the wagon then came back and hasn't really done much to redeem himself. It's not conclusive, and if I had free reign over today's lynch I'd kill Saint, but it's getting near deadline. I am slightly worried by the other players voting OGML right now, but it seems to me the best option of the current wagons.

farside: Read above. It's pointless to keep a vote on someone who obviously won't be lynched close to deadline. Why shouldn't I be suspicious of someone who casts a vote without any reasoning? Just because I liked the vote doesn't mean that I can't question the motivation behind it.

[Apokalyptika]

Hm...I haven't done an in-depth reread yet, but some initial skimming makes me think:

-WC is more town
-OGML is more scum

Also, there was someone who basically said to Ythill that he should move his vote to Ghost/00icon because he was influential and would secure the lynch. Can't remember who it was at the moment and haven't found the post yet, but putting it here so I can remember it for later.

[Apokalyptika]

So I found the post I was talking about before.

So first you were asking permission for the hammer and now you are blaming us that you didn't?

Anyway... I have solid reads on 12/17 players, and leans on a few more. We've had a few decent wagons and two of my townreads are clamoring to end the day. I think I'm ready to start working on the lynch.

Ghostlin remains at the top of my suspect list by a decent margin. Ani and Nexus are the runners up. A lynch on any of them would be good. By the numbers, OGML, Apok, and Wrath have been sufficiently scummy that I wouldn't mind seeing them hang. However, that last bit from Wrath means I'd definitely vote him over OGML and so I'm going to stay away from that wagon unless there is some serious to hop back on.

I'm going to keep my vote where it is right now because it seems like this wagon is still building. If people want to start rallying the Ghost wagon, you can count on my vote there to seal the deal.

What I don't understand about this Ythill is that your vote carries a lot of weight. There are lots of players that view you as town, as evidenced by the election count. If Ghostlin is your number 1 scum read, you should be HELPING US GET THE WAGON GOING, not sitting around waiting to see if we can get it going, and only then coming over. Your vote will be a big drive in getting the Ghostlin wagon fired back up. So quit farting around and vote Ghostlin. You know he's scum, I know he's scum, and he knows he's scum.

I'm a bit surprised to see that it came from LMP, since I've had a generally town read on him. Still, IGMEOY.

I've actually been having the same WIFOMy feelings. Thinking about it now, though, I'm gonna grow a pair and

Vote: OGML

.

WHOA. WHOA.

Oddly enough the ghost flip makes me fall back on thinking AGar was scum quite a bit.

Followed by

With the Ghost flip, I actually like AGar as town, given how much of my read was based on Ghost.

Unvote, Vote: Llama

Explanation please.

[Apokalyptika]

I thoroughly endorse this course of action.

Resurrect: Vezok

Sacrifice: OGML

Preview edit at farside: (1) Vezok's lack of speculation was scummier because it was over the course of the whole game, not just one post, and nobody had really called him on it. (2) The day was ending, I was getting a little tired, and I'd planned to question him more thoroughly today. (3) It depends; usually D1 is my least active day since it's generally the most boring and I don't have all that much to say. Now that we've got scummy people coming out of the walls, I anticipate being much more active.

Preview edit #2: Hello there Fate. Also, what on earth is OGML doing? The mind boggles.

[Apokalyptika]

I didn't mean that as a slam against you Fate, I just find it incredibly bizarre that OGML or anyone else would elect your slot right now.

Also, anyone else want to comment on the super contradiction in Llama's posting? I'm sitting here tingling in anticipation.

[Apokalyptika]

Farside: I'm not sure what I make of them electing me. At the time, I was flattered but slightly bemused. In retrospect, I think it's a good scum move; throw support behind a more obscure townie to gain points for independent thinking. I may be somewhat biased because they are my top two scumreads at the moment, but that's my opinion. As for Llamafluff's statements about my play, well, yeah. I do think I've been posting well, I've put my suspicions out there, I've been scumhunting.

I'm not sure where this case on me springs out of, really. I saw one post where I was suspecting Saint yet voting the same target as him. Turns out, scum sometimes vote other scum, and I thought it was entirely null in terms of placing my vote. As for not starting debate among the elects, I admit that I should have done that. However, the fact that people are skipping past self-contradicting scum Llama and giving-up scum OGML in favor of me is baffling.

As a sidenote, that's why I'm not electing anyone yet; I think it's a bad idea for anyone to get too many election votes at the moment, because people get locked into the idea of so-and-so going backstage and it colors perceptions.

[Apokalyptika]

How is that a post full of nothing? I am telling you scum, and you aren't listening.

[Apokalyptika]

I never said I was calling you scum. If you read my posts, you will see that I am saying OGML and Llama are scum, repeatedly, citing reasons. And I defended myself against the wagon on me, so I'm not sure where you're getting this lack of reaction from.

Also, and I feel the need to say this yet again because I'm being drowned out:

What do you guys think of Llama's blatant contradictions in his view of AGar based on ghost's flip?

Preview edit: ...how are you getting this? Are we reading the same game?

[Apokalyptika]

Hey OGML, you do realize that your quotes cut both ways? Ythill's 57 is distancing from voting you more than me, 65 was him saying that both of us were removed from lynch candidates, and 39 has you sitting right next to me on the scumlist. 37, while a good point when taking those players as a group, is very weak when looking at one particular member of it. Also, you cite his post 34, where he says "I don't think OGML is scum per se". Leaving himself a huge amount of room to go either way.

Also, you said you were going to look into the llamafluff situation, then totally abandoned that to vote me. Are you scared to analyze your scumbuddy? In addition, you've pulled the same trick twice now, 'giving up' when suspicion falls on you, then when things die down, returning to attack a townie. Yesterday it was ghost, today it's me. A little predictable, don't you think?

[Apokalyptika]

Oddly enough the ghost flip makes me fall back on thinking AGar was scum quite a bit.

Right here, you say that you think AGar's scum, based on the ghost flip. Hence, contradicting yourself.

Seacore:

It should also be noted that Ythill spoke FOR using a sacrifice/revive today.

That's fallacious logic.

[Apokalyptika]

Hey, all you guys getting so excited about voting me? You do realize the case on me is Fate being crazy, and OGML's analysis of Ythill? It's all very impressive, but he hasn't quoted a single thing that I have said that he finds scummy.

Llama, I don't buy that. I've never seen somebody use that phrasing in that way.

Elect: farside, KK

[Apokalyptika]

Let me refresh my memory of yesterday real quick.

[Apokalyptika]

Thoughts:

I am thoroughly dumbfounded that OGML remains alive, especially since Seacore died in his stead. Seriously, he's either ballsy scum that's WIFOMing us all, frustrated scum that's actually given up, or frustrated town that's actually given up. Best case scenario, he's a VT who's going to contribute next to nothing.

I like MoI's point about lack of backstage killing; worth keeping in mind.

Kublai... I want to see you as town, I really do, but you're making it hard for me. Now, I have grown up in a family of mathematicians, spent my life surrounded by mathematicians, and am a math major (albeit a shitty one) so I may be biased, but prime number commuter doesn't seem that implausible of a claim. Yes, I know he was fakeclaiming, but given that this site tends to have fairly intelligent people, it wouldn't be surprising if two or more people thought of a prime number mechanic independently. Also, you said you weren't that suspicious of Seacore otherwise. Bad times.

Wagon analysis is retarded though, I hammered the person I thought had the bigger chance of being scum. Both were town, but seacore had a slightly better chance of being town. I explained all that yesterday, I'm pretty sure. I don't think this is remotely hard to understand.

Wait...what? Seacore had a slightly better chance of being town, so you hammered him? Possible scumslip here.

Elect: MoI

I'm not sold on him being town by any means, but I think it's likely enough that he's worth a nomination.

Now, Locke Lamora, Llamafluff, and LMP...all beginning with L, and all players that I have a fuzzy to nonexistent read on. I'm going to fix that now.

[Apokalyptika]

Oh yeah, I watched LMP night 1 and nobody visited him. I actually didn't intend to breadcrumb, though. Magna, where does your town read on KK come from? KK, I'm not getting what that post with the picture of string or whatever was supposed to get across. Gaggle v. MoI/Gaggle v. KK is just buckets of fun.

Right now, I'm going to

Vote: KK

. I'd really appreciate Locke Lamora and WrathChild getting in here. I also just noticed that OGML flavor-claimed Spirit of the Old World; I'm somewhat more inclined to believe he's town now, but not at all sold.

[Apokalyptika]

...was that a hammer? Goddamnit MoI.

Locke, I'm a watcher, and everyone knows that. I have no knowledge of whether MoI's claim is real.

[Apokalyptika]

Just in case it wasn't:

Unvote: KK

.

Also:

Yes, my interactions with Ythill were fairly low; I was taking a similar approach to that mentioned by someone else, which was treating him with an air of caution and waiting to see how effective his town-leading was.

Sounds scummy as hell.

[Apokalyptika]

Welp... I hope we're not too fucked in the ass.

[Apokalyptika]

Sacrifice: MoI

Resurrect: Fate

More in a bit.

[Apokalyptika]

No results, hm? That's...quite convenient...

[Apokalyptika]

Actually, I received a no visit result. I guess that could mean a roleblock, but I have no confirmation of such.

[Apokalyptika]

I didn't watch ooba. If we're claiming, I'd rather not claim my target until claims are finished.

[Apokalyptika]

Well we need to rez today. I'm pretty sure this is lylo and since OGML is being a fucktard instead of playing the game lets do this:

unrez: Vezo

Rez: Fate

farside, out of curiosity, why did this cause you to change your resurrection vote?

[Apokalyptika]

Elect: Gaggle

Actually, I missed that farside was V/LA. In that case, let me say this. When I was backstage, I pushed for a Fate revive for a variety of reasons. One of them was that, had I instead favored a vezok revive, he would likely have been revived without discussion. Putting up an argument for Fate's revival from a confirmed town, I thought, would have been more polarizing and thus more informative. Here, we see farside in favor of watcher/tracker combo.

I agree with Llama about bringing back the tracker over VT. Hello, watcher/tracker FTW.

rez: Vez

And yet, she took the opportunity to hammer a Fate revive when we were nowhere near a deadline. Scared of a tracker, perhaps? We've seen quickhammers before in this game. Remember how that worked out?

Friends, comrades, townspeople: I give you farsidescum.

With that said: Again, remember that MoI's still alive, with wild votes/elections flying about.

[Apokalyptika]

Hehehehe. I love this game. Unfortunately, farside quickhammered the Fate revive.

[Apokalyptika]

Unresurrect: Fate
Resurrect: vezok

So, a large part of me thinks we've caught farsidescum, Llama's gunsmith, we can revive a tracker, we've got this. But, Gaggle's got the inkling of a point in that the flavor doesn't seem to fit at all, and Llama sans claim hasn't been amazingly impressive. Not much of a counterargument, but we've got to be careful. Llama, who did you attempt to investigate last night?

[Apokalyptika]

Locke Lamora:

farside or Llama? Answer in your next post.

[Apokalyptika]

Some thoughts:

Remember we are getting rid of one scum today already. If in the worst case we lynch a townie, then a townie gets NK'd, but in the morning a townie comes back. So, worst case is a 1 scum/1 town swap, which is still in town's favor.

Rereading farside, as well as some backstage stuff, my scum read is reinforced. That being said, I would like to see Llama's answer to farside's latest question. Also super impatient for Locke to come back.

[Apokalyptika]

Day 1: Fluff argument with Ythill over saying "my" in a sentence. Never indicated real suspicion of MoI or Ythill.

Night 1 backstage: There was a point where farside, talking to Ythill, said "you and me" in a situation that sounded very off. It really feels like a scumslip.

Day 2: Throws out a sacrifice vote on MoI, which wasn't really going anywhere. Admittedly, could be honest, but could very easily be distancing.

Day 3: Starts off very aggressive on MoI, but eases off a lot. FoS's him, then retracts it. I think scum were prepared to bus MoI for the quickhammer, but then were relieved when they didn't have to.

Day 4: Needs to throw out her reads again, shows no suspicion towards MoI.

Day 5: "Quickhammers" Fate revive. I think she thought it couldn't be changed once hammered, so she slipped into reviving a VT instead of a PR.

I don't know what to think of Llama's not clearing Seacore, it is concerning and I do want an answer. However, I'm much more concerned with what I see here.

[Apokalyptika]

To farside, and anyone else who may want to know: The post I was talking about was Night 1 backstage post 64.

I gotta say, though, farside makes some good points here, as does LMP. i do think that believing MoI is a null-tell, though; I certainly believed him.

Also, general question: I read the book quickly when I signed up for the game, so I don't remember it perfectly, but was Jesse James ever mentioned? I can't believe I glossed over that bit before, but that's the first name claim that I don't recall and that bothers me.

[Apokalyptika]

The sentence I'm referring to is "I would rather have you and me create these voting blocks on people like OGML and KK." Anyone else who saw that want to weigh in?

Also, I quickly grabbed a pdf of American Gods to check (bad Apok, I know) and I searched for 'jesse', 'jess', and 'james' and saw nothing about Jesse James. Honestly, though, there are enough characters that scum shouldn't have to make up a random fake claim, so it's probably a null tell.

Wrath, you said something a couple of days ago about me and Fate being killed Night 2...I was lynched, remember?

Damn it all, I'm rereading and processing, I just feel like I'm missing something blindingly obvious.

[Apokalyptika]

Put a gun to my head right now and I'd vote farside. Her explanation of her backstage statement especially was very weak. Again, I'd really like anyone else who saw N1 backstage to come forth and comment.

[Apokalyptika]

You are misrepresenting me. I'm saying that that, in addition to all my other arguments regarding farside, is why I would vote for her. I did miss the part where she noted that Ythill was the first to hint at Llama being a PR, though. So that's another tick against Llama.

Locke: Llama asked for a firm stance from you, and I'd like to second. Llama or farside, please?

[Apokalyptika]

Oh shit...*reads farside's post* OHO

Unvote, Vote: LL

Please accept my humble apologies, farside.

[Apokalyptika]

Hell, let's resurrect Fate then.

Unrez, Rez: Fate

[Apokalyptika]

Heh. Frankly, MoI deserved to win this, but I'm not complaining. Let's go, everybody!

[Apokalyptika]

Oh, yes.

Elect: Farside

[Apokalyptika]

Hey, at least I got my name in the title twice

Go town!

[Apokalyptika]

I'm breathing deeply now, to calm myself. Ever since the fake hammer, I thought town had this game on a platter. Honestly, this last day, I was rooting for the scum. You guys managed to pull through under hard circumstances, and I would be honored to play with any of you again sometime. (Especially Magna, you made me laugh so much )

Town: WHAT THE HELL??!?!

[Apokalyptika]

Also, does anyone object to me posting backstage QTs? I'd appreciate seeing the scum one, too.

[Apokalyptika]

Actually, I don't care if anyone objects.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/xTiTesGsvBU

That's Night 5, it contains links to nights 1-4.

[Apokalyptika]

Oh, poor Fate...

[Apokalyptika]

[brag]KK, I TOTALLY called out WC for too much flavor[/brag]