A Gentleman's Game of Guile, Subterfuge, and Intrigue (Fin)

[Feysal]

Greetings, fellow gentlemen of the Lodge. I regret my late arrival to the proceedings, but I would entreat you to forgive my spending of the Easter holidays with family.

Since I have not had the privilege of making the acquaintance of most of our members, save for vezokpiraka and inHimshallibe, I am at a loss as to what kind of behavior to expect from certain members. In particular, I see two of our distinguished guests accusing each other at the drop of a hat. I have encountered interpersonal feuds before, and I have to wonder if this could be an instance of such. The feud, if indeed it is one, would be something I would be weary to draw conclusions from.

As to vezokpiraka, to hear him speak is pain to my ears, however I see no cause to suspect him beyond that. I have as of yet never participated in a policy lynch, and while my one encounter with vezokpiraka ended with our loss as members of the town, it was not a loss for which I could assign him any blame in good conscience. I have to wonder as to the nature of his speech impediment though. Is it self-imposed in an attempt to be amusing, or perhaps something beyond his control? I am reminded of a game from nearly a year ago, where a player took his role most seriously and role played it to great effect and hilarity, at the behest of the moderator.

Having arrived at what appears to be the end of the stage reserved for votes of an arbitrary nature I see no reason to inscribe a name on my ballot at this time. More reading and background checks may be necessary if I am to divine the motivations of the gathered illustrious personages.

[Feysal]

I hereby humbly acknowledge my prod. In retrospect, I probably should have expected I'd get busy during the week leading up to May 1st, the greatest celebration of the year for Finnish technology students, even some former ones such as myself. That celebration is over now however, and I can resume posting as normal.

I will be reading what I missed and rereading what led up to that tomorrow after I've had some proper sleep. Fortunately I don't seem to have fallen too far behind.

[Feysal]

After a moderate amount of reading, I am once more up to date on recent events. At this time, many of my reads are still in their formative stages, however I do have some observations from the past three pages worth commenting on.

On the topic of vezokpiraka, his joking approach to the game, posting in a purposely heinous accent, strikes me as carefree and therefore townish. I have understood that some of our esteemed members find him suspicious for lack of substance in his posts, and for his attack on kr0b. However, has it not been said repeatedly that not contributing is typical of him as town, by the same people who find him suspicious no less? I am vaguely disturbed by the assertion that he should be policy lynched as town and suspected as scum for the exact same behaviour. I have yet to make a more detailed background check on TheLonging to see what his stance on policy lynches has been on past games, but for now I can say that I do not like this type of damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't argumentation.

As for kr0b, I am not certain I understand the basis of the case on him. My own read on him is undecided, though I was pleased by his responses to the points raised against him. Particularly what he said about the intricacies of the style of speech we have adopted making it harder to draw conclusions from the way people express their thoughts mirrorred my own thoughts perfectly. As a matter of fact, I imagined none other than Oscar Wilde, who was known for being witty with his words, when reading again his response to imaginality regarding his use of the word perhaps. I do believe that his choice of words is no more than a red herring, and dwelling on that subject is fruitless.

I admit that some of the points raised against kr0b later on have merit, but I am still confused as to the cause of imaginality's original vote on him. Voting first and providing reasons later does not sound like a good way of seeking villains in our midst, particularly when the best of those reasons only occurred after the original vote. This makes imaginality look suspect in my eyes, though I am somewhat appeased by his apparent willingness to look in other directions.

Finally, I find that in the recent back-to-back between kpaca and Twistedspoon, it is decidedly kpaca who comes on top.

[Feysal]

And I must take issue with you over the appropriateness of that. It's not uncommon for cases, particularly early in the game, to develop further in response to how the accused person responds to the pressure on them. Indeed, I'd venture that it's the rule rather than the exception.

Perhaps I should clarify what I meant by that. It has been my experience that mafia often find it difficult to fabricate reasons to suspect someone, and thus they have a tendency to let the town players do the work for them, after which they adopt their points as their own and jump on board the lynch wagon. If it is someone they were voting to begin with, so much the better. I had this happen to me in a more recent game of mine. I had forgotten your original reason for voting kr0b, and it appeared as though you were jumping on board a popular wagon. Now, I am satisfied by your response.

Feysal and InHim

not voting I see. Why might this be?

It is sadly typical for me, particularly for early in the game. I do not have a good grasp of the game yet, and my reads on half of the players are weak or nonexistent. I am working on remedying this, and will vote in due time.

Clearly the subject I should delve in first is the case of Twistedspoon and Sir Hoppster. As I alluded to earlier, I've encountered feuds before, and their voting each other at the very beginning of the game reminded me of such. One particular pair of players I've encountered off-site has become infamous for stunts like crosskilling each other on night zero when in opposite mafia teams, or picking a fight with each other for the purpose of distancing when in the same team. Looking at what is happening between Twistedspoon and Sir Hoppster, I would say it has gone much too far to be distancing though. I think it is highly unlikely they could be partners in crime.

I am somewhat amused by Sir Hoppster choosing to vote himself. Every time I've seen that happen someone has pointed out that self-voting is a useful ploy for mafia to gather sympathy, so I might as well be the one to say it now. However, I've never actually seen mafia self-vote, except in hopeless situations to end their own misery. Thus I view the self-vote as a town tell, particularly the attitude with which it was made.

I believe I'll have to look for Twistedspoon's past games to get a better read of him. My experiences with meta have been unreliable, however newer and less experienced players are often easier to get a read on, so seeking meta on him could be worth it.

[Feysal]

I've been doing some supplemental reading to get a more accurate read of Twistedspoon, and the results appear to be in his favor. I checked the games imaginality posted links to (post #256) and some others, and I agree with his conclusion - meta would suggest Twistedspoon is town. Given how Twistedspoon and Sir Hoppster attacked each other from the very start, I was also especially interested in their mutual history, but sadly I found no games I could link to. According to what I read from Hoppster elsewhere, the only completed games they have together are marathon games. There is also an ongoing game they're in, and having skimmed through its first day I believe I can understand Twistedspoon's reluctance to engage with Hoppster in verbal fisticuffs. In short, my already uncertain faith in Hoppster's case on Twistedspoon has eroded even further having read what I have.

This has no effect on my read of Hoppster, at least not yet. Rather I fear we have two gentlemen heading toward a fatal confrontation, to the delight of the villains amongst us. I believe both the town and the game in general could benefit from both Twistedspoon and Sir Hoppster reconsidering their stances on each other in a calmer mood, taking Sir inHim's advice.

In other news, I regret to inform you I will be away this weekend. My orchestra will be leaving on its annual concert tour in little over an hour, and it is unlikely I will have a chance to post at all until Monday. Therefore I must declare

V/LA until Monday.

[Feysal]

Back from V/LA.

I've read the posts from the weekend, and I'm surprised by how few they number. As of this moment, we have less than five days until deadline, and we are completely undecided on who to lynch. We should remedy this situation quickly, and that goes for myself as well. I have not forgotten that my own vote remains unsused.

I can't say I'd be enamoured of either of our main wagons today. I recognize there is a case on Twistedspoon, yet looking at his meta I find it quite believable he would act that way as town. The other wagon on vezokpiraka started as a policy lynch for his reputation of being detrimental to the town, and it then turned into a lynch for scumminess for essentially the same reason. I don't see a real case on vezokpiraka, however neither do I have a strong town read on him.

[Feysal]

Three days have passed without a post from me, and it is high time I remedied that. Again I see remarkably little has happened, though I am hardly in any position to criticize others for it. It is more fruitful to delve into the game anyway, so onwards.

Sir Feysal, is there a villain suspect you think is stronger than Twistedspoon, Esq. or Sir vezokpiraka? If so, then how does it come about?

At the time you asked this question, my answer would've been no. I had a townish read on Twistedspoon and more of a null on vezokpiraka, but I did not have a suspect I could've presented a case on.

After your inquiry however, I've seen the name of kr0b being mentioned by a fair few individuals. Therefore I took the liberty of examining him more closely, with the intent of solidifying my read on him. And indeed, I see the merit of this case now. I don't fully agree with the case as it was presented by imaginality, but I do see cause for concern.

I never thought that kr0b echoing Apokalyptika's words was very significant as such, but what he was saying then appears to conflict with his later actions. Apparently kr0b wondered why imaginality had singled out StrangerCoug, and with that background it does look peculiar how he singles out kpaca later on for supposedly posting fluff. I would say that kr0b's and kpaca's entries into the game are so similar as to invite comparison between them, but therein lies the problem. If indeed kr0b thought he and kpaca were similar in their manner of posting, what cause would he have to so focus on kpaca, in that post and later on? Particularly when kpaca had only just joined the proceedings, I find that kind of suspicion premature.

There is also the matter that kr0b spoke of fancy words being a convenient disguise for the villains amongst us. I rather liked this from him, since it mirrors my own thinking. In addition, I recognize a risk of misunderstandings arising from needlessly complicated language, which may have been the case with his use of the word perhaps. But looking at kr0b's early posts, I do see a definite lack of substance underneath a surface of pretty words.

Finally, his absence from the thread is long past looking conspicuous. His last post was nearly a week ago, and during that time he has posted in another game. Since this game has only grown by three pages since last Friday it should be possible for kr0b to keep up with ease, particularly when he appears to be able to do it in a more fast-paced game. Finally, according to his profile page, he last accessed the site today. These facts don't look like symptoms of flaking to me, more like avoiding this thread.

Given all this, I feel comfortable enough to

Vote: kr0b

I also see that we have received an extension of one week. I am sure that is very much needed.

[Feysal]

Only now I see Twistedspoon stands at L-1. I did not realize we were that close to lynch, and did not see the vote count until after posting.

This changes the situation somewhat. Under the circumstances, a claim from Twistedspoon is probably necessary. What that claim is might not be a great surprise though... I thought I had seen a soft claim from him earlier.

[Feysal]

Another day has begun, and I see two of our esteemed members have lost their lives overnight. I confess I am surprised by this, as I did not think our number was large enough for two nightly deaths. I would hazard a guess that one or the other killer may be limited in some fashion, but since that is unknowable and not helpful to our efforts anyhow, I will let that matter rest.

As regrettable the loss of an honorable gentleman was, I cannot help but feel that if this mislynch had to happen, it was good that it happened on the first day. Had Twistedspoon been investigated and then lynched, his death could have outed the investigator also, who now remains securely hidden. With any luck, in a day or two the investigator will know enough for us to use process of elimination to great effect.

Meanwhile, we need to decide where to go from here. I see Sir Hoppster is being suspected for his involvement in Twistedspoon's death. The question I'm asking myself now is, is he the type of player to tunnel aggressively as mafia? That kind of zeal has the effect of looking very townish to many, but I've met few players bold enough to behave like that as mafia. I will need to look more closely at Sir Hoppster's past. Previously I've focused on his shared past with Twistedspoon, and I am somewhat dismayed that Sir Hoppster would not reconsider his read of Twistedspoon. This is the second time I've seen him pushing for Twistedspoon's eviction from a game, and he appears not to have learned from his failure in reading him the first time.

Something else that caught my eye while I was reading:

Feysal: He brings up a lot of good points, its that simple. Its unfortunate his stance on TS was ignored.

I'm somewhat surprised by this read of myself for good points, considering my vote at the end of yesterday was on kr0b, who ToastyToast replaced.

[Feysal]

Sorry about the lack of posts today - I had a large theme start yesterday, and it started off with a flood of posts I'm trying to keep up with. I'll be catching up here come tomorrow.

[Feysal]

I am, once more, up to date on recent developments. I had guessed AurorusVox had joined the lodge from observing his change of avatar in another game, and just now I confirmed this by reading the posts from the weekend. I am pleased with his entry, and this matches nicely with the opinion I once held for kpaca before his attendance record prompted his substitution.

I have taken a look at Sir Hoppster's playstyle as anti-town, particularly whether he showed tendency to tunnel. Of his two non-newcomer games as mafia, Wrestlemania appears to be almost useless as meta due to the restrictions on posts in that game, however there was no tunneling present, as his focus and votes shifted often. There Will Be Bloodshed was somewhat more informative in that it contained an episode comparable to this game, where Sir Hoppster relentlessly pushed for the death of a town player, however this happened in LYLO where he did not need to be concerned about the fallout. My conclusion is that if his tunneling on Twistedspoon was mafia motivated, this would be a first for him. Given that I've met few players bold enough to aggressively attack town, and Sir Hoppster has not displayed this behavior in the past, I find it more likely that his attack on Twistedspoon was simply misguided.

Somehow I had thought that Sir Hoppster's request for an extension had come after the moderator had offered the chance, but I apparently confused this with another game. That Sir Hoppster would ask for an extension of his own accord, unprompted, indeed speaks well for him.

While I'm on the subject, Lord Hur's assertion that it would be suspicious to believe a miller claim after the claimant had been hammered, even if this had been accurate, is something I disagree with. Had I been present at the time, I would've believed it, since I do not see any merit in lying about such a thing when your true identity is moments away from being revealed.

You can read into it if you want, but I would have voted kr0b yesterday (apologize for the bit of WIFOM).

Fair enough. On a side note, I'm not a believer in the Amished tell after seeing it fail rather spectacularly, so I can overlook the WIFOM.

[Feysal]

Can you stop with the walls?

Nobody is reading them except you two.

I am reading them, since the obsessive facet of my personality compels me to, but I'm not gaining much from them. It looks to me that Vox and Hur are arguing past each other, and they are both immovable in their stances. This makes the walls tedious to read, and I do not see much chance for further enlightenment arising from them.

Surprisingly, it seems to me that Lord Hur emerges from this confrontation mostly unblemished. I have been at the receiving end of a scum attack where I was overwhelmed by large wall posts, and though I did well in my defense, my time allotted to hunting villains was so diminished that it convinced others to vote for my death. In this case, it seemed townish of Lord Hur to look first at imaginality, particularly how he found him not worthy of voting. This would not seem like a villain under pressure, trying to dodge pressure. It was his analysis of the Twistedspoon wagon that came off as very townish though. Hunting for villains is exactly what a town player should do under attack.

Feysal, Imaginality, and inOneshallibe; yesterday you all seemed most suspicious of Mr. K r0b; what is your current opinion on his business partner, ToastyToast?

Ambivalent. I have not taken the time to look at him in depth, and as I'll be leaving for the cinema in a few minutes, I won't do so now.

If indeed Lord Hur is at the brink of death, I should make my research a priority later tonight, as time is clearly running short.

[Feysal]

Having just read the last couple pages, I notice we've become a newbie game. Not that I'm complaining, I find it rather refreshing. In the site I moved here from, there were typically one or two newbies in most games, and this game could certainly use some newbie enthusiasm.

There would not appear to have been any significant developments during the weekend, which is unsurprising given how many of our members are temporarily not available. Sirs Vox and imaginality have indicated they would be away, while the voice of our provider of cookies is almost unheard is mostly unheard. Only now it clicked what Sir Vox meant when he demanded cookies earlier this week, and a player whose full name escapes my memory is truly a player too much absent. This being Memorial Day weekend in the United States may have contributed to the activity of others, slowing the game down.

The only action that interested me was vezokpiraka asking for a hammer. He is apparently concerned about the game stalling, but this may be an illusion due to players being away and the special weekend (or so I hope). Since we have a week to go until deadline, we are not so rushed we should consider hammering Lord Hur yet, provided people continue to consider him suspect, which I don't. His recent behavior seems townish to me.

I did take a closer look at ToastyToast in isolation, and the result of that was a fairly neutral read. Any suspicion I have left for his slot is due to his predecessor, and I have previously seen a replacement player take an extremely suspicious slot and turn that read upside down. I could let ToastyToast and other replacements live for now and watch how their play develops, provided of course that they are active and we can find a suspect I can put my vote behind in good conscience. I will be looking at the members whose contributions have been lowest, it is there that my reads are weakest.

Other notes: I am noticing a large decrease in activity from AV and Hoppster (post length, general content).

AV gave a V/LA notice, so that would explain him. As for Hoppster, I have noticed him posting less this day phase, which is not all that surprising after the case of Twistedspoon.

[Feysal]

Feysal, may I ask your first impression of me? Also, what could I do better? (Actually could as many people as possible answer this question? Thank you.)

Well, the first thing that caught my eye about you was your first two posts. You first said you would post after reading the thread, and only 26 minutes later you declared town reads on inHim, Sir Hoppster and myself. At that point I had to wonder what those reads were based on, I mean, I am not the fastest reader myself but I don't think anyone could read the game that quickly. Unfounded reads are a common mafia tell, just so you know, especially if they change when it seems convenient.

Later on... your apparent enthusiasm comes off as townish. In my experience, newbie mafia tend to lurk and avoid taking stances, so I'm leaning that you're town.

I would still like to know the reasoning behind your reads though.

@Feysal: You seem to be quite uncommitting in this game. Only one vote so far... Who are you suspecting, and why?

Having few votes is fairly typical to my play. I think I have given reads, but they're scattered in my posts, so I should gather them in one place for my benefit as much as yours.

Town

Sir Hoppster

-

I find it very rare for mafia to push for a mislynch so boldly as he did, and as he has not displayed such boldness before, his play seems like tunnelling town to me. I might believe he could do it to save a partner, but since he kept pressure on Twistedspoon consistently while other suspects came and went, that possibility is rules out.

I wrote this before reading the last page, and this argument melted into WIFOM stew with Hoppster's final post. I'll have to rethink this, and probably check out his play in Candy Zoo in more detail.

AurorusVox/kpaca

- I had a good feeling about kpaca after his altercation with Twistedspoon, and I was pleased about AurorusVox as he entered the proceedings. He is tunnelling to be sure, but that is something town does when they believe they've caught a scoundrel, and he has given his reasons why he believes so. I believe he is town, and probably wrong.

jilynne1991/DemonHybrid/GMan

- The attendance record of this slot is quite horrid, and since I can barely recall anything of note from either of the gentlemen replaced by jilynne, my read is based solely on her exuberance, as I said above.

lord_hur/Caboose

- As above, I never had much of a read on Caboose, so this read is based on Lord Hur and his response to pressure from AurorusVox. He made his defense, and moved on with his hunt for suspects, like town is supposed to. I especially like the way he handled imaginality - that was an opportunity to deflect served on a silver platter, and he turned it down. I believe mafia would've leapt at the chance, unless of course bussing was involved.

Uncertain

inHimshallibe

- Townish side of null, but I don't recall seeing anything that would go further to convince me of his good intentions. He did not participate in the death of Twistedspoon and made an effort to evict kr0b instead, and I do agree with these actions of his.

vezokpiraka

- His joking approach to the game seemed carefree and townish, and I find it unlikely mafia would willingly draw attention to themselves like that. But apart from that, I've yet to see anything of significance arise from his play, leaving him as town-flavoured null.

Reya Cookiebringer/Apokalyptika

- I have no read on this slot at this time, what with posts having been so scarce. I intend to read their posts in isolation when I have a moment of time for it, to see if there was anything I missed or forgot since the first time.

Suspicious

ToastyToast/kr0b

- Solely because of kr0b, my read of ToastyToast is rather more neutral.

imaginality

- Very low presence, and his one action that stands out is his hammer of Twistedspoon.

I missed this. Yes, I'm french living in France, and Feysal is living in Finland (I read it in his meta).

I indeed live in Finland. I wonder what you mean by meta in this instance? There was a time once when I used my location as part of my defense, when I decided to go to sleep instead of doing yet another ISO read, but that was the only time I remember mentioning my location in a game. Not that this matters, just curious.

[Feysal]

Are you at L-2 now?

No, that was L-1. Next vote would be the hammer, so don't. I have a town read on Lord Hur, and I really don't want to lynch one of our few members who actively contributes.

just so I fully understand, what were your main problems with kr0b. His lurking was bad, but I think his posts were decent when he "tried".

I described my thoughts about kr0b in my post #368. I haven't reread him since, so I have nothing to add really. Basically, I liked him early on because his thoughts about the fancy talk making the game more difficult matched mine, and I tend to trust people whose thinking mirrors my own. I never got why so many were suspicious of him until I read his posts in isolation.

[Feysal]

I don't like the second part of your reasoning. Why should we

focus

on lynching people who contribute less? Is lurking a scumtell for you, or is it null?

Definitely a scumtell. I've been part of enough many towns that lost because of infighting to say this. One good example is Cold War Mafia which just ended, where both scum teams spent day one lurking, while the town was tearing its own guts. I also know that I tend to lurk myself as scum, since I can't seem to summon the same enthusiasm as when I'm town.

Of course this is but a general rule, and does not take individual playstyle into account. Someone like Lowell tends to be more active as scum and lurk as town, which is a detail about him I will commit to memory in case I ever play against him again.

Also, on the site I moved here from, there is an epidemic of suspecting and lynching active players, and I'm seeing the same symptoms here. Active players such as Lord Hur tend to stand out, especially if they have controversial ideas or suspects, and may end up being wrongly suspected simply because of it. Add confirmation bias and plain stubbornness, and you have the makings of a mislynch. By that point all you need is some lazy townies or scum to vote with the majority.

If you think we're engaged in TvT, do you think that lord_hur isn't misrepping me in places? Because I sure do, and that's a sure marker of scum in my opinion.

I was frankly uncertain what these misrep allegations were about, so I searched your posts for the term. I found three cases:

1. The first case was in post #497. I think this was a misunderstanding more than anything else, I don't think that Lord Hur intended to suggest that you would've demanded him to question everything and everyone. I read it so that he did not see motivation for Hoppster, should he be mafia, to lie about whether he had laid a snare for Twistedspoon, so he did not question his explanation. You disagree and say motivation existed, and that Lord Hur should not have believed him so readily. Fair enough, you can suspect him if you think his trust implied knowledge of Hoppster's alignment, but I don't think this was a misrep.

2. There were two further mentions of misrepping in #657. First was Lord Hur calling your vote a gut vote, and you obviously disagree. The way I read it was that Lord Hur called it a gut vote at the time it was made, and the walls came later. Still, I have to grant you that you did give some reasons for your vote in the same post you voted, so perhaps this one is a mild misrep, though I don't think it is nearly so extreme.

The other one is about your voting history. Lord Hur sought your games where you'd used walls, and looked at your voting history too in those games. He did list more of your games as mafia than as town, but he also said the difference was marginal, and thus did not try to draw conclusions from that data. That is how I saw it anyway. He demonstrated that you used walls both as town and as mafia, making the whole argument null. As for your voting history, I'm not even seeing the point of arguing about that. No matter how good you had been at voting mafia in the past, your voting record is pretty much irrelevant in the here and now. Your past performance is not a reliable indicator either way on whether you've caught mafia now.

3. There was a third case where you mentioned misrepping after you asked the question, in post #660. This one was about you lynching him no matter what, and frankly, if you say you're persistently tunnelling him that is not so far from the truth. Deadline is in six days, and apart from Lord Hur, we seem to have no potential lynches to speak of.

Perhaps I should try to remedy that:

Vote: imaginality

I just read through his posts, and there is not all that much there. He agreed with the vezokpiraka policy lynch, made the case on kr0b (incidentally, this means that it is very unlikely for both him and kr0b/ToastyToast to be mafia), defended Twistedspoon with meta, but ended the day by sealing his execution. It is this last action that seems most peculiar, and today he has been mostly inactive. His V/LA ended two days ago, and he has not been seen since.

Also; "so don't" rubs me up the wrong way. Why is your town read worth more than five peoples' scumreads?

It's mine. The five other people can be wrong, or they can be scum. What would be the point of having town reads if I just let them be lynched without comment? I could be wrong myself of course, but that is no reason to blindly follow the majority. Maybe at deadline if there was no better choice, but we're not there yet.

Sorry, I missed this. I metaed you about the frequency of your votes (and what you said is true, you do vote rarely both as town and scum). During it, I saw, at the end of one game, that you said you were wrongly attacked for inactivity while it was 6 AM in your country, Finland.

Then it was the very game I remembered, Stars Aligned III. Of course I was a cultist, but I still thought the attack made no sense. Nowadays it does not even apply anymore, my sleep rhythm has been so haywire that me being awake late at night has been rather the norm than the exception.

[Feysal]

I myself find the lurking to be null, since I have seen numerous townies do as much, and have found myself sparse for time in many occasions. I can see the logic behind lurking as scum, but I feel that it would be imprudent to ignore the (il)logic of lurking as town also. That said, as I expressed to Sir Hoppster, Reya is a fine compromise vote if we truly cannot see lord_hur in the gallows.

This is true, I also have encountered lurking town often enough, indeed I have done it myself when circumstances were against me. Mafia do not always lurk either. Regardless, I find it more probable for mafia to lurk, making it indicative of anti-town intentions, though certainly not a strong tell on its own.

I can agree with this much. I did feel that lord_hur was trying to smear me by picking through my voting record, and I was keen to indicate back to him that should one wish to be selective with their searchings, one can paint anyone in any light. "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics" after all.

Exactly, and thus I find that analyzing your past voting record would be ineffective as a smear attempt, because it is simply not compelling. Not to me, anyway.

Can I ask why imaginality over the Cookie Monster? Reya has "not been seen" for much longer.

Mainly because imaginality had given reason to doubt him in addition to his low presence, while I could not remember either Reya Cookiebringer or Apokalyptika doing such a thing. At the time I had also not read their posts in isolation, and seeing how there has been talk of executing Reya as a compromise, I have just examined them. Reya's posts are remarkably barren, aside from broken promises of more content and activity. Apokalyptika's posts are far more informative, I am particularly interested that her first serious vote was on imaginality, but on the whole I have a null read on her and thus on the whole slot. I can see the merit of removing him for not being either useful or readable, but as far as his alignment goes, it would be a shot in the dark.

I will explain why this "rubbed me up the wrong way"; I have fears with the post I responded to in the quote herein, that it was a working example of the process known as Impersonating a Saintly Gentleman at War; or "White Knighting". If lord_hur flips town, you would naturally look excellent by extension. Your "1 vs 5" stance here conveys you as a hero, and being solely responsible for preventing a mislynch - should it be as much, that is. Of course, this is but one interpretation of events. I am not entirely convinced that it's an accurate assessment myself, but it has been one of the first twinges of repugnance that I have felt for your communications, and I had wanted my voice to be heard, lest I should perish before the morrow.

I am familiar with the practice of White Knighting, indeed I believe there has always been someone who suspected it whenever either I or someone else has defended another player. I don't think it is a particularly strong tell either way, unless the player who the defending player would rather execute - imaginality in this case - is revealed as mafia. Or if the player being defended is revealed as a villain obviously, which would give cause to doubt the defender.

[Feysal]

Oh my. I did not see that claim coming. I'm naturally inclined to believe it, and others appear to believe it too, so we need to settle on a different lynch. There is less than a day left until deadline.

I can see Lord Hur's argument that so many people being willing to lynch Reya is troubling, and could indicate a mislynch about to happen. I'm not entirely convinced by it though, since until his claim Lord Hur was clearly the default lynch today, and mafia could have used the opportunity to distance to Reya, believing it would not develop into an actual lynch.

At this stage Reya is a definite detriment to the town. He said he would make up his mind about Lord Hur today, and despite checking in he has not posted. At this rate I worry if we're even going to get a claim from him before deadline is upon us. If being the main wagon with deadline around the corner can't get him to play, I don't know what will. I'm willing to vote him for this reason, since he refuses to replace out and does not participate in the game, and the prospects of the situation improving should we leave him alive look remote.

That said, I do have more confidence in my vote on imaginality. If others do not agree, I will switch to avoid a no lynch.

[Feysal]

So, I take it that you will switch to Reya Cookiebringer?

Yes. Not yet though, the odds of Reya showing up in the few remaining hours are low, but it is still a chance. Post #729 was frustratingly vague about when exactly the night begins, but there should be at least four hours left. If we've heard neither from Reya or the moderator by then, I intend to hammer when those four hours are up.

@Moderator: Might I request for a more accurate estimate as to how many hours remain of this day phase?

[Feysal]

@Hoppster: I realize it is too late for an alternative wagon by now, and there is not enough time to discuss anything Reya might say, but anything he did say could be useful tomorrow. What I hoped to gain from delaying the hammer was get him to talk.

Not that it matters now. Reya either gets here before the moderator and posts, or not.

[Feysal]

The new day seems to be well under way, and there have been some interesting developments. Lord Hur's death is predictable. The friendly neighbor claim from imaginality, confirmed by Jilynne, comes as a surprise to me. After so many non-vanilla roles had been revealed, I did not expect to see any more in game.

@Feysal: can we get an updated version of your suspicions?

Of course.

Town

vezokpiraka

- Investigated and cleared by Lord Hur. Like imaginality said, it is possible he could be a godfather or Lord Hur could have been insane, indeed I recall Lord Hur himself alluding to the accuracy of his result not being guaranteed, in his post #723. However, the possibility of him being a godfather is far too remote that I would consider gambling the game on it, and I deem it unlikely that our only investigative role would be insane. On the site I came from, cops being insane was rather the rule than the exception, but here the case appears to be different.

imaginality

- Claimed friendly neighbour, confirmed by Jilynne. As such, the only way he could be mafia is if he and Jilynne were gambitting. With the game in apparent MYLO, that would seem like a possibility worth considering, but since there seems to be a vigilante out there, this would be a significant risk for the mafia to take. He is most probably telling the truth.

jilynne1991

- She confirmed imaginality's claim, when as mafia she could easily have denied everything and probably get imaginality lynched. It occurs to me that this would not help the mafia much, since this would result in her becoming an obvious target for the vigilante, and the result would be a one-for-one trade. The other possibility is her and imaginality both being gambitting scum, but that would be risky with the vigilante alive and hidden, and therefore unlikely. I continue to read her as town.

AurorusVox

- The reasons I've mentioned before have not changed, and I continue to believe him town. I am aided in this by the fact that we are both in another ongoing game, where I did a meta investigation of him. This suggested that tunneling as he has done is a town tell for him, despite the fact that he was proven wrong.

Uncertain

Hoppster

- My liking of him was indeed based on his play on day one, on the assumption that he would not dare tunnel on Twistedspoon as mafia. That argument was of course invalidated when he himself admitted to doing the same in another game, now ended. Now that I think of it, the fact that he brought up the subject himself reflects well on him, indeed I have defended myself as town in a similar preemptive manner. Of course, preemptively defending yourself is something mafia would have a motive to do as well, so I could see him flip one way or the other. I've still got to do that in-depth read on him I spoke of yesterday, perhaps that will be helpful in reading him.

ToastyToast

- I have not done an in-depth read of him, but I am liking his posts today. In particular, I can see an effort to scumhunt in his analysis of the game. I also find the way he proposes himself as a lynch unlikely to come from scum - I remember doing this in some of my first games as town, so often that it became a running gag for me for a time.

Suspicious

inHimshallibe

- Part process of elimination, part playstyle. I am again aided by an ongoing game, where I studied his playstyle, and he seems unusually talkative here, which makes me wonder. Someone mentioned this on day one if I recall, I'll see if I can find it.

I realize that there are probably three mafia in a game this size, and one suspect is too few. The above reads are on individual players, and I've not yet given thought to who could be in a mafia team together. Time to look at the vote records.

On other subjects, I see there have been calls for the vigilante to claim, even mass claiming has been proposed. I'm quite torn about this, on one hand claiming now would help in reducing the number of suspects, however it would also out the vigilante to be killed by the mafia. Perhaps the best policy here is not to claim, unless the vigilante is unfortunate enough to fall under suspicion.

[Feysal]

Meh, that wasn't the complete Feysal case. Also, since they're one-liners, I figure they'll be easy to respond to.

Pretty much yes. I'll get to responding to them presently.

Setting up not having to attack Hoppster for the ragematch against Twistedspoon.

You are interpreting my comment in light of what transpired after it, not the time when it was made. This was my first post in the game, and not being clairvoyant, I could not have foreseen that the verbal match between Hoppster and Twistedspoon would escalate the way it did, and lead to the latter's mislynch. Not only that, your logic is completely flawed, as I later criticized Hoppster for not having learned from his earlier match of wits with Twistedspoon.

I can easily point to an example of the kind of feud I was referring to. In my first game ever, the hitmen of two opposing mafia factions targeted each other during night zero, and I've seen them poking and voting each other in later games with minimal reason. But, their feud has never escalated into anything more serious like we saw here. What I meant with my comment was that I saw the early exchange between Hoppster and Twistedspoon as little more than random banter over some shared history I was not familiar with, and as such it was not indicative of either's alignment.

Completely non-committal on the policy lynch talk, not wanting.

Was it really? I saw TheLonging as pushing a policy lynch of vezokpiraka and finding him suspicious for essentially the same behavior. I did not like that. I thought at the time that TheLonging was simply seeking his death, and had little interest in whether he truly was scum.

Undecided but town.

No, just undecided. I thought that the attack on kr0b for his use of the word perhaps was weak, and he had done well defending himself. Successfully defending yourself from a poor case is not indicative of alignment though, leaving him as null at the time. Although I admit, his talk about the intricate language being a hindrance to scumhunting did please me, as I tend to trust people whose thinking matches mine, but I know that tell is not reliable.

OHAI GUIZE DEM POINTS ABOUT KROB ARE GOOD BUT I DON'T WANT TO VOTE MY PARTNER SO I'LL INSTEAD PICK ON THE ORIGINS OF THE WAGON.

I stand by what I said. If the origins of a wagon are weak and the credible arguments are added later, that makes the wagon suspect in my eyes. This is exactly how I was mislynched in Storm of Swords, had one scum attack me for an absurd reason, and his tunnellinng brought other scum and townies on board with better reasons, sealing my fate.

After this, nothing more on kr0b, and has since kept ToastyToast as a neutral read here, here, and drops him a peg here. Strange how he can have a neutral read on the current player in the slot and still keep that player in his most suspicious tier. And then crunch time comes and he bumps Toast down a peg. Puh-lease.

I don't see any reason to dwell on kr0b after he was replaced. And the neutral read I gave ToastyToast was based on his posts and his posts alone. I do not mean to imply that a replacement player should be given a clean slate, but if there is a mismatch between reads on the replacement and the player he replaced, there is cause for reconsideration.

By the way, in my latest list of reads I did not drop ToastyToast a peg, instead I raised him one. Before I had him as suspicious on account of kr0b. If this is the best case you can come up with, I say it is rather sloppy.

As for the talk of this being MYLO, it would appear so with presumed three scum alive. But there is also a vigilante, who remains unclaimed, which would indicate that he probably has a shot left. That of course is no excuse to be careless with our votes.

As if it was not obvious already...

Were I not terrified of rogues capitalising on a misplaced ballot, I would be voting for: inHimshallibe

[Feysal]

So, we have another power role claim, probably legit too since there is a dead StrangerCoug to prove it. And apparently ToastyToast has survived the other kill attempt. I can see no more than the two conclusions already proposed that could be drawn from this, either ToastyToast is bulletproof and likely mafia godfather, or inHimshallibe was blocked. Since a bodyguard already flipped, I consider the likelihood of a protective role negligible.

So which is true? I thought about the implications of the mafia having a roleblocker, and some things don't make sense. If the mafia had blocked inHim, they must have suspected he was the vigilante, and when there was no second kill last night those suspicions should've been strengthened. Why then would they have wagoned inHim with everyone else, when the wagon was doomed to fail after inHim claimed? If they had reason to believe they had already neutralized the vigilante, they could have pushed for another mislynch without having to worry about the backlash.

As such, I would like to poll players opinions on Jily specifically, please.

I read through her ISO, and there are indeed enough things that raised my eyebrow to make a list of. The problem is that they could just as easily be interpreted as newbie tells or as suspicious. My read on her has been based on her exuberance, as most newbie mafia I've encountered have been lurkers, which she is definitely not. I continue to see her as town.

Jilynne seems to be the only one not to have posted after inHim's claim, but since she is currently on V/LA, we can't expect to hear from her until Monday.

I agree with the call for a mass claim.

Given how many non-vanilla roles have been revealed already, I don't see any harm in it. Should we do it in some specific order or what?

[Feysal]

Most Proper but Unspectacular Man of Class.

Popcorn to AV.

[Feysal]

Deftly evades being poked with a nondescript but presumably sharp instrument.

With Jilynne's claim, the only one we're missing seems to be vezokpiraka. Then it would be prudent for us all to resume our participation in this game, we have but little over a week to come to a decision.

Simply put, our dilemma seems to be whether or not ToastyToast survived due to being a mafia godfather and immune to night kills, or because inHimshallibe was prevented from killing him. If it is the former, we should lynch him. If it is the latter, lynching him would result in our immediate loss, since then the mafia could block inHimshallibe again, preventing any chance of the town making a recovery through his kill.

[Feysal]

Acknowledging prod. Apologies for the short absence, though vezokpiraka is partly to blame for it for his apparent trickery.

Feysal's lack of hammer means he is town if TT is town, leaving {inHim, vezok, AVox}. Even with inHim-town, it would probably make more sense for Feysal-scum to secure the lynch (admittedly he could just be very lax/lazy scum, but I'm going to have to assume that's not the case and that Feysal-scum would have made sure that the hammer was indeed the hammer).

As much as I like your conclusion, I'm afraid the truth is I simply fell for vezokpiraka's ploy. I was away from the game on account of Midsummer's Eve, and came back to see what I believed was the hammer. There did not seem to be any reason to say anything, since I expected the game to either proceed into the night or end in town loss. I realized my mistake today.

Now that I am here, I'd still rather not hammer away blindly. I admit that imaginality has a point about the lack of a quickhammer, but if I fell for the gambit, who can say if the mafia did not too?

[Feysal]

Well, you are getting at least one more post from me today.

Willing to hammer, effective immediately, but holding off for a few hours in the hope that Feysal posts something.

I took another look at Jilynne, this time in her other games. I got curious about her saying she was in many games with two mafia, so I looked them up. Turns out she is in some open games with two-man mafia teams, but the real eye-opener is looking at her play in those games. Only one of her games is completed, but even based on that it is clear that I was wrong to clear her based on her activity. She is a veritable waterfall of words.

As for whether she could be mafia, looking at the rest of the players, that looks likely. Removing myself, inHimshallibe, vezokpiraka, imaginality and Jilynne, I'm left with only ToastyToast, Hoppster and AV as potential mafia. That team does not sound particularly credible, especially AV being involved. I've recently taken a close look at his play in several games, needing the meta in another ongoing game, and it also serves me here. The way he has played does not resemble his anti-town meta much at all. I believe AV is town, so clearly there is something amiss. Jilynne is the odd one out, with inHim confirmed non-mafia, vezok investigated by a flavor cop, and imaginality only being able to be mafia if Jilynne is.

I see that Jilynne finally hammered. But, especially given how long it took, that really does not rule out bussing. We shall see.

[Feysal]

Where are Hoppster and Feysal? It does not become a gentleman to tarry.

Here now. I've had an exceptionally busy weekend, and I only had some time yesterday to read, but not reply. Time to correct that.

I definitely agree that a Jily-Feysal scumteam makes the most sense.

You would. Now that I've seen Jilynne's mafia play in her other games, I agree that she is our best bet for mafia today. However, therein lies a problem. Jilynne flipping mafia would not really clear or condemn anyone, leaving only vezokpiraka as flavor-confirmed. It would invalidate imaginality's friendly neighbour confirm, and I also disagree that it would clear you in any manner, shape or form.

Yes, you and I have a problem. There Goes the Neighborhood has ended, and after your foul treachery in that game, the faith I had in you in this game for the similarity of play is a thing of the past. That game, you started out by tunnelling on one of your partners, resulting in her eventual arrest. When your other partner was being wagoned, you derailed the mislynch wagon that would've saved her and caused her arrest too. And despite all this, you were mafia. I don't know how, or if, you're ever going to get a town read from me again after I've seen what villainy you're capable of toward your own allies.

And that brings us to this game. Yes, I do think Jilynne is probably mafia. I noted her slip of two mafia as well, and reading her other games I noticed how her behaviour, which I'd believed made her town, meant nothing. You however I could easily see as her partner. I don't recall you ever having given a clear stance on her, only yesterday you began to hint that she could be mafia but never really pushed. And lo and behold, when Toasty is revealed as town, what do people say?

...if jilynne1991 is scum, I'd regard AurorusVox as cleared town...

AVox looks really, really town off a ToastyToast town-flip.

I don't agree with either of the above. I think what I'm looking at is a perfect example of white knighting.

I'm perfectly fine with Jilynne being today's lynch, but come tomorrow, we should not ignore the possibility of AV being her partner in crime.

Submitting that we will wait and see does work. At this point, if there are three rapscallions, they can simply vote for a "laissez faire" approach every day anyway, thus our only hope is that it is indeed a two-man (or woman) team, and approach them with more favourable odds tomorrow (3:2 rather than 4:2).

What exactly are you trying to say here? Did you forget that if there were three mafia members, the game would be over?

[Feysal]

Sir Feysal; allow me to share with you my real meta, that I hid from you whilst we were battling against one another, and I were on the side of the knaves.

Save it. I don't recall anything good arising from use of self-meta. I have tried it, and even while I was being truthful to the best of my ability, I've been called a liar over differing interpretations.

I find your statement of engaging in town-versus-town regularly disturbing though. If you're aware of this tendency, why not try to correct it? Instead, in your fight with Lord Hur this game, I seem to recall you defending your mafia catching prowess. Lord Hur insisted that you vote town considerably more often than anti-town when you're town, a sentiment you apparently agree with... and yet you found Lord Hur suspicious for his belief. How does this work?

I have, however, brought attention to Jily when none was required. Ask yourself if, in TGtN, I brought undue pressure onto Krypt/Set, or whether I just intensified already-existing pressure?

I don't think it was necessary at all for you to maintain pressure on kryptinen, or to bus Setael. That was why I thought those actions made you town, yet now I know better. And for all I know, you could be concerned about being caught by process of elimination, leading you to seek town credit from pushing for your partner's execution, enabling you to survive to win for your team. (I've tried this once, in an off-site game which resulted in my loss as mafia, when my entire team was caught in a single turn by the most ridiculously overpowered mechanic I've ever witnessed.)

It is my understanding, admittedly from another site, that if the rapscallions equal the gentlemen in number, the game does not yet end - they are forced to "no lynch" and shoot at night to achieve greater numbers. Is that incorrect?

It is incorrect, and it would only take basic logic to see why. If the mafia at any point constitute half of the town, it means they control the vote, and it is impossible to lynch them. Therefore the outcome of any such situation is a foregone conclusion, and a game where that happens, or it happening becomes unavoidable, ends immediately in a mafia victory.

Unless... you're not suggesting that there could be a town traitor in the game? That way I guess there could be three mafia remaining, and the game would not end because the mafia could not vote as a group.

So we have Hoppster saying her mafia play in other games is different to her play here, and Feysal saying the opposite.

Reconciliation of contrasting perspectives, plz.

I've never played with Jilynne before, and I am in no position to compare her town and mafia metas. I went looking for her past games to see if there really were other games with mafia teams of two people, and while I was at it, I had a look at her play in some of those games. I did no extensive reads of those games, but even a cursory glance revealed that she was loquacious regardless of her alignment, and was unashamed to post even when caught as mafia. I'd believed her town because I expected newbie mafia to be more subdued and lurky, but she is clearly an exception to that tell, so I dropped my town read of her.

I'll have another look, but from what I can recall Jily's post just above me contrasts sharply with her scum play in [REDACTED] where she pretty much ummed and ahhed through making any stances at all.

Ummed and ahhed? That sounds a lot like her play here, I'd say. She has given stances yes, only to abandon them the next moment. I would describe her play as indecisive, especially since the spotlight was aimed at her.

[Feysal]

Contradiction Discovered:
In TGtN you questioned WHY I wasn't using my previous scum meta to defend myself against Nacho. Why did you want me to use it then (when you were town) but don't want me to use it now (when I am town)?

I don't recall questioning you on the matter. Instead, after Regfan was revealed as town, I investigated your meta myself to see if there was any merit to his case on you, and shared my findings with Nacho and you both. I did so because I could not be certain if I would live to defend you myself, and it was not self-meta to begin with since I'd done the research. Besides, given how unreliable that meta proved to be, what makes you think I'd be interested in any meta you provided now?

Eh? I tunnel on town, that doesn't mean lord_hur was right that I only ever lynch town and that this is a scumtell against me. Lord_hur's point was in part to call me scum whilst showing that I never find scum, whereas in fact the opposite is true; not finding scum is a towntell for me (imo). And it is something I'm trying to work on. Do you think I'm content with having a poor scumhunting town game? :\

When did Lord Hur ever use your meta as a tell against you? Looking back, I see him explicitly saying it did not help him determine your alignment in #526, and later he used it as a town tell for your suspects. You yourself said he was refusing to accuse you in #587. At the time, all your meta arguments were about how often you voted anti-towns, you never said anything about voting townies being a towntell for you. So, when Lord Hur said you frequently vote town, an observation you apparently agree to be accurate, why not consider you were doing that with him? Why did you find him saying so suspicious?

Let's do this

Vote: Jilynne1991

I agree. I have some lingering concerns about you, but now that they've been said, they can wait until tomorrow. None of this changes the fact that Jilynne is clearly today's lynch, and should we prove wrong about that, further discussion is meaningless anyway.

Vote: jilynne1991

[Feysal]

The night is over already? That was fast.

Feysal:

I'd like your take on Hoppster's defence of Jily yesterday and his request for a deadline extension on D1.

Regarding Hoppster's request for a deadline extension, I never saw that as such a solid town tell. Obvious town tells are easiest to fake, therefore I find subtle tells more reliable, since they are more difficult to falsify and mafia rarely bother to try, since the town might not even notice them. Now that I look at the situation in which Hoppster made his request, I see no cause for concern why the mafia might not want the day to continue. All three wagons of the time were on town (Twistedspoon, Apokalyptika/Reya, kr0b/Toasty), and from a mafia viewpoint it should've looked like they had a mislynch in the bag.

As for his defence of Jilynne, at first glance it looks bad, save for one thing. Already in his first post yesterday Hoppster said that Jilynne was probably the lynch of the day, and even though he kept up his defence of her, he never tried to bring up an alternative to her lynch. Neither did anyone else from what I recall. I can't see the point of defending your partner if there is no viable alternative to her lynch anyway.

From my point of view, the mafia should be either Hoppster or AV. I should look at Hoppster's meta for whether and how he busses, for AV I already know. I find it unlikely that imaginality would be the last mafia, as he was under heavy suspicion at the time he claimed friendly neighbour, and I don't see mafia sacrificing a player not under suspicion to save one who is, to obtain a clear that erodes the moment your partner flips.

[Feysal]

Feysal, in iso16, you said you had a meta town read of AurorusVox - does that still apply?

The meta read was in part based on his play in There Goes the Neighborhood being similar to his play here, and I believed he'd be town in both games. I was wrong in that game, I could be wrong here, so that meta has become quite useless and unreliable.

Last post for now: AV and Feysal, any thoughts on whether the way jilynne1991 overlooks Hoppster in 90/91 is a scumslip like the 2 scum comment was? Just wondering if she forgot him because he's her partner...

That would be really weird, but not outside the realm of possibility. The way she says she's used to games having an odd number of players makes little sense to me, and sounds like it could be an excuse.

I was put off by the "further discussion is meaningless" as FeysalTown strikes me as the sort of player who would value discussion. The hammer initially looked to me like a quickhammer and I have to admit that for a moment I wished I hadn't voted, as I was sure Feysal-Hoppster had just won. For comparison, note this post where Feysal acknowledges his intention to hammer before actually hammering, and here where he again delays hammering to draw out the last little bit of discussion from the day.

The difference is that this time I saw no discussion on lynching anyone other than Jilynne. The way vezokpiraka, imaginality and you endorsed Jilynne's death within the span of a few posts made it look like there would not be any either, and since I had nothing against her death myself, I hammered. I felt that we could continue the discussion of who her partner was today, and had we been proven wrong about her, having that discussion yesterday would have been a waste of time and effort.

Really? Isn't what you've just said reason enough? If we sided with Hoppster yesterday and decided that Jily wasn't the lynch, if Hoppster was her buddy, they'd have probably won there and then since we'd likely have believed in Hoppster town if we agreed with his assessment of Jily.

True, but they would still have needed a viable mislynch to push over Jilynne, and I can't see one.

[Feysal]

Part of me wonders if you only really thought I was town there because you knew I was town here... do you ordinarily treat tunnelling as a towntell?

I can't recall if I've explicitly said so in any past games, but I would treat tunnelling as a town tell. Particularly stubborn tunnelling, where the player in question starts looking suspect himself because of it. Mafia have no motive to draw attention to themselves like that, or to provide a clear should they die before the target of their tunnelling. Town has that motive if they think they've found mafia, and they have less to lose from death if the tunnelling ends badly for them.

There certainly was; Hoppster had put forwards a case on Jily town that might have been listened to, and you were building a case yesterday. In TGtN you didn't want to lose even a few hours, even though it was pretty obvious that Regfan was getting lynched. If you were town, I kind of feel you'd have wanted more time to make your case - hammering Jily could have lost town the game if she's scum, and TownFeysal surely would have wanted to maximise the opportunity to discuss alternatives, rather than just accepting that there were no alternatives. Plus the fact that AV+Imaginality+Vezok isn't enough to see a lynch through means that you had all the time in the world to discuss other possible lynches.

Really. Hoppster was the only one talking about Jilynne possibly being town, and the three of you made it abundantly clear you were not listening when you called for her death. As for my case, have you forgotten that I suspected you and Jilynne of being mafia together? Jilynne was by far my stronger suspect, so why would I even want to keep pushing you over her? I did have something to say about that, which I did and ended the day.

As for TGtN, the major difference is that yesterday we were at LYLO. In TGtN we were not. Had we been wrong about Jilynne, nothing I or anyone else could've said about other suspects would've mattered. In TGtN we had one more day regardless, so obtaining Regfan's final thoughts that day did matter.

If you're town, then you'd have been a viable mislynch as you were floating around near the top of peoples' scum-list; are you not considering that because you know you're scum and therefore wouldn't have been a mislynch...?

I may have been near the top, but Jilynne was at the top, and flailing like mad. There was no way in hell I'd have been lynched over her.

...Does anyone think InHim might have been lying about shooting Toasty to get the wagon off of himself?

To what end? As a serial killer he must have been desperate to kill the mafia before they killed him, so I can't see any reason why he'd lie.

Why does this matter anyway?

[Feysal]

Well, I see I'm at L-1. I'd claim, but I've already done so.

So is it purely because I tunnelled in TGtN that you're now no longer holding that view? What do you make of the fact that I tunnelled on my buddy, and not a townie? What do you make of the same tunneling-on-scum in my game Mutiny on the High Seas?

I never said I would no longer hold that view. I simply recognize that it does not apply to you. And I make nothing of your tunnelling behaviour in other games. As far as I'm concerned, your actions in TGtN have corrupted your meta beyond recovery, and nothing you say or do should ever be trusted. If we were not already in LYLO, I would've wanted you dead, no questions asked.

This is now an academic question though, as your lack of hammer makes my choice remarkably easy.

Vote: Hoppster

Ehh, you made it sound like you only hammered/considered voting Jily yesterday because you saw no other alternative, and that was - to an extent - something you wish hadn't been the case. If you were even a little confident in Jily scum, couldn't you have pressed her further (like I was doing) to name her "suspects" for future analysis after she flipped?

You had already done an adequate job of questioning her, and I never thought there was need for more. And had I known how suspicious her posts would make me look, I would've been even less inclined to hear more of them.

For your knowledge, there is a game out there called Faith + 1 where Jilynne had an interesting performance. She replaced into a mafia slot that had already been investigated by a sane cop, and said result had been revealed. Consequently she admitted to being mafia and spent another twenty or so posts messing the town with WIFOM. She in fact outed her last surviving partner, who went on to win the game for the mafia team. It was finding games like this that made me realize my town read on her was misguided, and now it should serve as a warning not to put too much stock in her words.

Is getting thoughts on these things a bad thing, Feysal?

Guess not, though their usefulness in hunting mafia eludes me.

Feysal, if scum, has lurk-lurked and I would feel somewhat cheated if he won.

I understand the suspicions on me based on Jilynne's posts, even though I obviously disagree with them, but this I take issue with. I don't know why imaginality picked the games he did as representative of my town play, but those two are in fact two of my most active on the site, with the sole exception of Mafia Holographica, where 24-hour deadlines necessitated a much higher rate of posting. In my other recent games, including There Goes the Neighborhood where I was town, my rate of posting has been comparable to here. How active I am in a game depends on several factors, such as how active the game is in general, how well it keeps my interest, and how much time and energy I have to spend into mafia in the first place. I have not been lurking this game. Currently a rate of one post every one or two days is as good as it gets for me.

[Feysal]

It has been 48 hours, so it is time I dodged a prod. Being replaced at this stage in the game would be something intolerable.

I don't think there is much I could say that I haven't already. The only reason I'm being suspected for that is my doing seems to be my level of activity. It is a null tell, as I've tried to show, and it seems to have been largely ignored. The rest of the case on me is being painted black by Jilynne. I can see that, and I can't deny it.

If there are any further questions anyone wants to ask me, fire away.

[Feysal]

Feysal, if you're town, please use the next half an hour to convince me as much. Otherwise, the hammer falls.

To do it in half an hour would've been a tall order, even if I had been there to see your post at the time. But, I'll delve into your ISO of me next, and see what I can do.

[Feysal]

I read the foregoing communique and perhaps betraying a subconscious awareness that Sir Hoppster's spat with our fellow gentleman TS was a most gentlemanly duel on both sides... thereby revealing Feysal's possession of interior- and superior-knowledge. This theme is continued here where Feysal seems to put faith in TS meta and Hoppster for self-voting. These seem rather weak reasons. I also don't particularly like Feysal's use of meta, but that will be reserved for later.

What I meant about Hoppster and Twistedspoon attacking each other is exactly what I said. Neither had an apparent reason or provocation to do so, which made it look like their fight was a continuation of something that had happened between them in a past game, and therefore meaningless for the purpose of determining their alignments this game. I can't recall if I mentioned it in this game, but I have been in a game where two feuding players in opposite mafia teams tried to kill each other on night zero. I suspected something similar between Hoppster and Twistedspoon.

As for the meta on Twistedspoon and Hoppster self-voting, I do use those tells, particularly when I have nothing stronger available. If I may remind you of why I replaced into TGtN, it was because the meta read I had on Twistedspoon was enough to convince me of him being town, and since I prefer playing as town I replaced into his slot. I have also never seen mafia self vote on the site I come from, and even on this site I've only seen mafia self vote when it is a quickhammer, for the purpose of stopping discussion. I stand by what I said then.

One cannot hope to change the flow of history without having one's voice heard, and it is infinitely better to speak than to remain silent in these matters... 'tis a personal despair of mine, to see those who enjoy suffrage to throw their privilege away!

I am not fond of casting my vote lightly, not even during RVS, and that phase had already ended.

I have to wonder why Sir Feysal might want a claim when he's been trying to derail the carriage hurtling towards TS. Could it be because he secretly does not mind that TS is close to a lynch, and securing a claim is one of the easiest ways to see it through?

On the contrary, I feel that claiming is one of the strongest moves a town player can do in his defense.

I am left agog that the tunnelling on town argument served the deduction that Hoppster is town, and yet for me, it made me more likely to be a knave, despite (a) it being null at the very least, and (b) actually being a towntell if you look into the meta properly. Since Sir Feysal seems to rely heavily on meta for guidance, I'm surprised he never acknowledged the difference between tunnelling on a scumbuddy and tunnelling on town in my defence, especially given recourse to this point he has made as regards Hoppster.

I looked at Hoppster's past games and found no examples of him tunnelling on town as mafia, therefore I considered it a town tell. I also considered it a town tell for you, until you so dramatically proved that your meta is not to be trusted. Any meta that a player is aware of can be played to and exploited, and after putting my faith in your meta once with disastrous results, I am not inclined to do so again.

An most odd post. Once more, Feysal seems to acknowledge the gentlemanly aspect of the battle between lord_hur and I - or at least it must seem that way since he does not go on to call me scum. And yet, he aligns the townread of lord_hur with coping under a "scum attack", without going on to call my participation scummy. Most interesting indeed.

It was not my intention to imply that your attack was suspicious. I was simply reminded of my own experience fighting an attack of wall posts, and the way Lord Hur handled the situation gave me a town read on him. I still had a town read on you as well, believing that you would not tunnel the way you did as mafia.

I see that Sir Feysal is potentially coaching Jily here. I see imaginality's point regarding Jily's association with Feysal too.

In my defense, Jilynne was asking plenty of questions of Lord Hur as well. This one was directed at me, so I answered.

Here is the potentail masquerading as a saint that I spoke of earlier.

And I already answered to this at the time you did. Moving on...

It's interesting that all that meta changes from a single example out of however many counterbalanced it.

I think that I explained at some point why I consider tunnelling to be a town tell. It stands out and can make the tunneller look suspicious, and I've met few players bold enough to do that as mafia. You've proven to me now that you are one of them, and so is Hoppster for the way he pushed the mislynch of Twistedspoon in their other game. The reason I consider tunnelling to be a town tell does not apply to you, therefore the tell itself has ceased to apply to you.

[Feysal]

I resent the notion that a villain could not be a gentleman.

Proud to have gut rumblings over Feysal too

Pride comes before the fall.

@Feysal: did you kill vezokpiraka last night because you weren't sure if he was a PR, or because you thought he'd be harder to mislead/get mislynched?

I never even considered whether he could have a power role. He was the closest this game had to a confirmed townie, and that was that. Also, I was hoping his comment of me and Jilynne being unlikely mafia together would generate some WIFOM.

Finally, an important question of my own: what's up with the party hats all over the forums?

[Feysal]

We were power role hunting that night. You and TheLonging appeared to be laying low, so we killed you and blocked him. We were most surprised to see you both dead by morning.

[Feysal]

I was cleaning up my inbox when I came across my fake role PM, tailored to my specification, and I thought I'd share, even though the game is over and done with.

You are

A Most Able and Skilled Adventurer Experienced In A Great Deal of Subjects.

Persistent vigilance is required, for a gentleman must always be prepared to undergo trials of body and mind in his quest to rid his company of rapscallions and rogues. During the day, you only possess the ability to voice your personal albeit venerated opinions and cast a pronouncement of condemnation upon the suspects among your peers. By night however, you put the skills you learned to utilize in your adventures in the Dark Continent to use, and as such may investigate the possessions of a suspect (and receive an item of incrimination or innocence), entertain a compatriot during the night with tales of your ventures within the heart of darkness (thus preventing them from completing any tasks they may have had during said night), and secretly switch the rooms of two other guests (so as any rogues targeting one will instead target the other) once each throughout your stay. You are victorious when every possible villain, rapscallion, and rogue has been executed for their crimes against high society.

Please confirm your attendence - as well as the validity of this information - via return correspondence.

While I'm at it, a couple comments.

-Lurking killed the scumteam. If Feysal had not lurked so hard, I think he could have had a good chance of mislynching Hoppster.

For the record, I did not think I was lurking that much. I told the truth when I said this rate of posting was as good as it got for me.

-inHim just got really unlucky that the Mafia RB stumbled across him by chance, otherwise he might have had a fair chance at victory.

It was not exactly by chance. Since there were only two of us I expected there to be a serial killer or another mafia faction of two. I was looking for them. What Lord Hur said in post #425 caught my attention, and after studying inHim's meta he became my prime suspect for serial killer, which is why I had Jilynne block him. The rest is history.

I notice that no one posted the mafia QuickTopic, and no one even asked. I always share my QuickTopics, on my wiki page at least, so here it is, even if it is very late.