Mini 1180: Game Over

[Alduskkel]

/confirm

4) No Lynch: As an alternative to voting for someone, you may Vote: No Lynch, but for it to take effect, enough players must vote No Lynch that it would be impossible to form any other majority.

So in other words, if there are 6 players alive it only takes 3 to no lynch?

Finally, if two vote modifying actions affect you, the lower amount takes priority. If this is a non-theme game, note that the flavor involved with a death doesn't actually matter, and therefore I will defer to the order in which the kills are submitted, not the death that is "most damaging."

What's the first sentence mean?

I understand that the second sentence means that it actually matters what order the kills were sent in, but who gets priority then, the person who sent in the kill first?

20) Modkills: Breaking any of the above three rules (or flagrantly violating Rule 16) will result in you getting modkilled. Modkills can be retroactive. If a living player breaks any of these rules, the day may or may not end, depending on what would disadvantage that player's faction the most. A dead player breaking any of these rules will result in someone from the same faction getting modkilled. In addition, getting modkilled results in an instant loss for that player, along with my general hatred. In short, follow the rules. I will keep a blacklist.

So if a living player is modkilled during the day, what will take place, the most damaging thing to the player's faction or the least damaging thing? And if a dead player breaks the rules and a separate player (who did nothing wrong) is modkilled, does the second player automatically lose?

What time zone are you in?

How much experience do you have playing mafia (either on or off-site)?

About how active are you usually in a game?

RVS or RQS? Why?

1. PST.
2. I have a wiki. For your convenience though, I have completed 23 non-marathon games. I think that makes me one of the more experienced players in the game, although Elsa and Ironhead seem to have loads of IRL experience.
3. Depends on my interest in the game and how much other players are talking. The more other people have said the more I will say.
4. Don't care either way.

Vote: DarthYoshi

Here's a random question for everyone too:
Do you prefer to play as town, scum, third party, or no preference? If "third party" please specify what kind of third party.

[Alduskkel]

BTW I prefer playing as Mafia.

[Alduskkel]

@Alduskkel: If your vote on me was RVS, why are you wagoning me instead of monk? If your vote wasn't RVS, why are you voting me?

I just voted you because you confirmed first. Pretty RVS, but it would have been a weak scumtell if you had said you preferred to play as scum.

lso, why do you prefer playing as maf?

I enjoy having a better idea of what's going on*, and if I deceive people particularly well it's devilishly fun.

Town often feels difficult for me, and sometimes I feel like I'm just stumbling around in the dark. Though it's very gratifying to see scum taken down, since you don't know what will happen until that instant when the mod posts the role reveal. Especially if you were on/led the wagon.

This town has already chosen RVS and not participating is counterproductive and scummy.

Hardly.

@Secret Project 104 (not quoting the whole thing): Don't you think it's more likely that Ironhead's posting style change is due to our shift from the goofy RVS/RQS stage to serious mafia business time?

I'm sorry, I was defending iron, because I thought he was CORRECT.

So why are you sorry?

Overall jilynne seriously tells newbtown. And her answer to the RQS regarding experience backs that up (6 ongoing, none finished).

Ironhead... doesn't seem to understand the case against him. Secret Project is accusing you of shifting over to more refined/sophisticated posting to seem more pro-town. He calls it "Appeal to Logic" which is a terrible name in my opinion.

Unvote

Vote: Gerhard Krause

. Are you ignoring everything jilynne is saying? She's giving off newb town tells like they were cheap cigars. At least address the town slip, and why you think it's not a town slip.

It appears to me that Secret Project is being overly aggressive in his attempts to appear as if he is a scum-hunter. I haven't yet seen him construct a lucid argument demonstrating that someone is acting scummy; what I have seen him do is cast weakly supported accusations at a total of four players, followed by an exclamation that everyone in the game must be scum. This is not helpful; nor is his habit of addressing his suspects as "scum."

This last quote from him is most telling, however. There is a saying: "He who accuses the entire world, indicts only himself." Secret Project exclaims "Is EVERYONE scum in this game?" I know this is not true, because I know that I am not scum. If I, a non-scum, were to express the sentiment of exasperation that Secret Project expresses it would say "Is everyone ELSE scum in this game?" or "Are all you people scum?" I would not lump myself into the accusation by saying "Is EVERYONE scum in this game?" A scum, however, would make this slip.

UNVOTE: WIERDALEXV
VOTE: SECRET PROJECT

This reads as OMGUS to me. Obviously when Secret Project asked if everyone was scum in the game, he was using hyperbole,

regardless of his alignment

. You're nitpicking grammar and basing a vote off of that and the fact that you think that he thinks you're scummy for being logical. This is not the case.

[Alduskkel]

Gerhard Krause, how closely have you read the thread? In particular, at the time you wrote post 150.

[Alduskkel]

Secret Project, I don't think you ever answered this:

@Secret Project 104 (not quoting the whole thing): Don't you think it's more likely that Ironhead's posting style change is due to our shift from the goofy RVS/RQS stage to serious mafia business time?

@Alduskkel: You see Gerhard's derp vote on Jily as a scumtell and not a town tell, why?

If you're not reading the thread before making a response, you obviously don't care about getting the full information available about your case and vote. Scum, as people not truly interested in catching scum, are more likely to do this.

AtEing = not scumhunting, and vice-versa.

??? I can scumhunt and AtE at the same time. I could just build up a decent case but also appeal to emotions (possibly separately).

Actually, you know what, I do want to see what reaction this gets:

Unovte. Vote: WormyKrew.

Why would you announce that you just want to see his reaction? That completely negates the point of the vote -- if he's scum he can calculate his reaction and it won't be genuine.

(Being, creating the QT to dump my thoughts into. TRUST me. You don't want me doing it in-thread. Ask Ald. )

Oh god, Newbie 748. What wallful nightmare.

First off. VCA is kinda my thing, but it's hard to do right now working from so little. But Alex is concerning.

DarthYoshi 3 (L-4)

Wiredalexv

, Alduskkel, Monk

jilynne1991 3 (L-4) TheWayItEnds,

Wiredalexv

, WormyKrew

(On someone who's to my understanding practically confirmed town, no less.)

Not Voting: jilynne1991, flinter,

Wiredalexv

(Say what you will about Not Voting counting as a wagon, but I consider it at that stage in the game to be a willing choice--which makes it to me a wagon.)

I'll be looking more into this.

(Though I need to make sure I don't tunnel on alex. It's...been known to happen. To, uh...say the least. )

So do you consider alex scummy or not for this?

Sure, Gerhard is scummy. But I know better than ANYONE else (*coughcoughpastvillageidiotcoughcough*) that there's a huge difference between scummy and scum. Gerhard is the former, not the latter. The scummy posts give off a town vibe when you double-check them. They look scummy, but look like they're coming from town.

If that makes sense.

No, it doesn't.

Scumteam Links

Well, I'm assuming RQS is Random Question Stage. I prefer RQS, because I can get more information. I dislike RVS, because it's too easy to kill a person too early. Oh, and I've only played with RVS, but I dislike it.

RVS gives discussion but also gives you an early read on the player who is bandwagonned.

VOTE: WIERDALEXV for instantly linking RVS to the concept of bandwagoning. Why must RVS result in bandwagons? Couldn't it proceed with an approximately equal distribution of votes among several candidates?

Watch how Ironhead COMPLETELY ignores jil and attacks his partner instead. On another note, he claims it doesn't put pressure on people later in the game, yet now he's saying everyone should vote evenly?

Couldn't I use the same quotes but then claim the jilynne is scum with Ironhead for the reverse reason (ignore his partner, attack someone else)? I don't see why you assume that the scum would bus at this stage, or why you're looking for scum teams when no scum have flipped.

I especially find it interesting that Mastin thinks I'm his #1 scum, yet our vote is now on the same playslot.

Why's that interesting? Do you consider it scummy on Mastin's part? Do you think there's a contradiction there?
---
Mastin needs to back up his reads. And not just because he called me scummy.

[Alduskkel]

Secret Project, I don't think you ever answered this:

@Secret Project 104 (not quoting the whole thing): Don't you think it's more likely that Ironhead's posting style change is due to our shift from the goofy RVS/RQS stage to serious mafia business time?

Not in the way it happend with him.

Mastin needs to back up his reads. And not just because he called me scummy.

Oooooo... Trying to deflate an issue before it comes up, eh? You scum?

Care to elaborate on the first point?

With regards to the second, I was merely preempting any OMGUS accusations. Probably unnecessary, but I figured I'd clear it out of the way without having to possibly waste time on it in the future.

And if it's critical for me to outright state this, no, I'm not scum.

(Note to myself: Still waiting for answers to questions in my previous post from DarthYoshi and WormyKrew.)

WormyKrew wagon is BS with basically no decent reasoning from anyone except DarthYoshi. I'd say that everyone but DY has to explain their reasoning in their next post.

By the way, I may be in the minority here but I vastly prefer wall-poster-Mastin to doesn't-explain-his-reads-Mastin.

TBH this game feels a little dead ATM. Need more posters other than Ironhead, Mastin, Secret Project, and jilynne. splitfarvle is especially missing, and our mod really needs to prod him if that hasn't already been done. It's been over four days now, more than a little ridiculous.

[Alduskkel]

Oh, monk called me scummy.

I don't think he has contributed much and what he has contributed has been mainly answering questions of other people rather than applying pressure or asking questions of people. There are different levels of scumminess and towniness I just don't show them.

That's just my more recent playstyle. Ask a lot of questions (especially early on), then based on those answers formulate ideas as to who is scum.

So far I'm having some trouble nonetheless though, what with a lot of players not offering up a lot of content compared to the floods of posts coming from people like Secret Project.

[Alduskkel]

Call me a conspiracy theorist who has absolutely no logical reasons behind his posts if you like, for this.

But, uh...

...Am I the only one seeing an Alduskkel-WormyKrew scumteam, here?
Will need to look into this further.

I can literally say you're doing the same thing with Ironhead -- defense against lots of suspicion. If I see an awful wagon I will say it is an awful wagon. And I'd rather you spend your time on explaining your reads instead of lousy conspiracy theories.

Secret Project, you're all antsy about Captain Corporal not answering your question. But I asked you a question in 307 which you ignored.

[Alduskkel]

CC, do you even know what you're accusing SP of? You sound very unsure. Appeal to Emotion is simple (and on the wiki): You're trying to convince players of something on an emotional level (as opposed to say, a logical one).

[Alduskkel]

Mastin, your feeling sucks. Bad gut.

5:26 A.M. where I am (I am semi-nocturnal) so maybe I'm just not thinking clearly and these are dumb questions but:
Marill = MrBump, correct?
Secret Project, what is the original post where you said that Appeal to Emotion was not a scum tell? You reference it in isos 26 and 40 (possibly more).

[Alduskkel]

wierdalex, tell me who you think is scum in your next post.

[Alduskkel]

You can tell I'm tired. In 319 I mean that Secret Project does not always think Appeal to Emotion is a scum tell (but that it can be).

[Alduskkel]

Man, I am too goddamn lazy sometimes. Reading, writing, and posting.

[Alduskkel]

@Alduskkel--who do you suspect on the WormyKrew wagon, if anyone, and why?

I never said I suspected anyone on the wagon. I just said it was BS. I've said it before, I'll say it again: wrong =/= scummy.

Also, I don't think you answered this:

Actually, you know what, I do want to see what reaction this gets:

Unovte. Vote: WormyKrew.

Why would you announce that you just want to see his reaction? That completely negates the point of the vote -- if he's scum he can calculate his reaction and it won't be genuine.

I think I'd be okay with a Krew lynch at this point, based on the way he didn't let jily go in their exchange earlier and now has kind disappeared under pressure. I won't vote just yet, but that's something that I see a lot out of scum, at least when playing IRL (which is largely my base in playing mafia).

What do you mean, "based on the way he didn't let jily go"? What specifically was wrong with his interaction with jily?

SecretProject...ummm, my gut feeling is that your scum, but I'm nearly 100% sure that's because I don't really like playing with you. (No offence.) So your kind of a null read for me.

What. You're going to keep your vote on someone you have a null read on?

Secret Project, you're all antsy about Captain Corporal not answering your question. But I asked you a question in 307 which you ignored.

No, I don't care to elaborate at all.

Why not? More importantly, just answer the first damn question from 307.

Secret Project: I don't like their extreme level of aggressiveness. They have a way of pushing their cases that looks scum-motivated.

This is really vague. I know you haven't voted based on this suspicion and you said it was a weak read, but could you please explain what about Secret Project's pushing of cases looks scum-motivated? Why do you think extreme aggression is scummy?

Just a quick question - what does everyone think of me?
Actually two quick questions. Do you think asking for self reads is scummy?

1. Neutral on you, scummy on Gerhard. So overall scum read.
2. I haven't thought about it, but since I don't see a town motivation (while scum have an obvious motivation), probably, yeah.

I also like how you, like WK, are basically ignoring the reasons I'm giving for why your actions are suspicious, and instead just attacking me back.

Since when have you called Secret Project's actions suspicious?

Captains disagreement with his predecessors reads is something that mafia generally would avoid doing, as is openely asking for players reads and thoughts on their slot.

Disagree. When scum replace in they can pick any wagon they want because they have a clean slate and don't have to worry about contradicting themselves. And why would scum avoid asking about reads on their own slot? Scum are the most concerned about what others think of them, if they can get away with asking then that's great for them.

One thing I am positive on though is that if WeirdAlex or Jilynne ever flip scum the other is confirmed town.

Why?
---
Mastin is really frustrating me, but if he posts his damn reads and his reasoning too by the end of the weekend I'll forgive him some.

Speaking of lack of content, I am seriously going to try and ramp up my posting frequency/content in this game. I don't know if anyone else is, but I am personally disgusted with my play up to now.

[Alduskkel]

This is bad. I never said you suspected anyone either, I simply asked if you did and why. If you didn't, is it really too much to ask to say that you didn't and move on?

I don't particularly suspect anyone on the wagon and I said why I didn't. I don't see how my response was "bad."

The first question in 307 was "care to elaborate?" I answered it.

*bangs head on desk*

[Alduskkel]

I was promised an explanation of reads from Mastin. RAGE. Okay, not really, but that definitely warrants a virtual smack upside the head. Mastin it has been forever since you said you'd explain yourself, and I was willing to wait until the end of this weekend (like you wanted us to), but now it's just preposterous.

Next post. Explanation of reads. Or a damned good explanation on why you haven't posted them yet.

Meanwhile I am rereading.

[Alduskkel]

Yeah, I only got to page 8. I'm going to have to pick up my reread later (hopefully today).

On the other hand, I've got a good reread post in the works. Turns out all I needed to get the old Mafia fire in me burning again was to reread this game and start making a wall.

Unfortunately (fortunately? depends on how much you're dying for more content from me) it kind of looks like one of Mastin's walls already (albeit smaller and better than quote-oneliner-quote-oneliner) and I still have 19 pages to go. Though that's almost to be expected, since I think Mastin gets a lot of his wall-mode playstyle from me.

[Alduskkel]

Here, have a wall. This covers the game up to my last post on page 27. Since after that any reading I do will not have the prefix "re." Comments for pages 27-32 will go in the next post. Also, this is pretty disorganized, sorry. But I'm going to leave it that way because organizing it would mean that it wasn't chronological.

Spoiler: Wall

VOTE: ironhead
We both agree that his single post was scummy. It's like he's trying to avoid RVS... I wonder why?

Weird question, with the implication that avoidance of the RVS is scummy (which makes no sense)*. Adds to the suspicion of Ironhead without really adding any content. For reference, this is after Secret Project expressed suspicion and voted, making this a slight case of bandwagoning to boot.

*Confirmed here:

Not liking RVS is obvscum. Lynchlynchlynch

unvote, vote: weirdalexv

TBH, I think Ironhead is null because of it (all though I'm still not sure if it was serious or just RVS-sarcasm, I can never tell the difference).

This was a very safe thing to say. You established yourself firmly on the fence without stepping on anyone's toes. I'd expect newbie town to do this, but not someone in a mini normal.

Bad vote: wierdalex had stated earlier while answering DY's RQs that he was inexperienced.

She didn't vote yet. It was a messed up quote.
Anyways, your preference doesn't matter. This town has already chosen RVS and not participating is counterproductive and scummy.

So an explanation. Except that WormyKrew is creating a false dichotomy between RVS and RQS, which, as this game itself demonstrates, are not mutually exclusive.

I don't like how Jilynne says she has a post on Ironhead but it's literally just a thing about the stance on RQS/RVS.

Failing to realize that Ironhead had posted about the RVS, making jilynne's post relevant and relatable to Ironhead.
---
TWIE just bandwagons on jily in posts 88-89 without adding anything to the case. Just that jilynne's laziness (not wanting to "rewrite 5 sentences") is apparently a scum tell. With WormyKrew and Secret Project already expressing suspicion and jilynne being a player who very obviously won't be able to defend herself well, this is scummy as hell.

wierdalex does the same thing in 92, except that it's worse because it's sheeping what TWIE said* (meaning that weirdalex is managing to add even less to the case than TWIE's nothing) and he's the 4th person to express suspicion of jily as opposed to the 3rd.

*As DY notes in 101.

96: WormyKrew reconsiders his suspicions on Ironhead a bit, switches to voting jilynne. But he had expressed previous suspicion (he was the 2nd to do so, I believe) and expands the case making this not a bad vote. So WormyKrew gets town points back for this.

Wow... chainsaw defense like hell. You bussing, krew?

??? Really confusing actually. The chainsaw defense refers to scum

defending

a scumpartner by attacking their attacker. I mean, if WK is scum, and Ironhead is scum, then WK must be attacking Secret Project (the primary, if not the only, attacker of Ironhead at the time), right? Except he's not. Does not compute. I even checked WA's posts (WA being the other person SP called scum in post 104) for chainsawing, but there's nothing there.

109: As noted in 152 by SP, bandwagony post from splitfarvle that doesn't add anything to the case.

I've seen newbies "townslip" before. It's a clever tactic.

It's a gambit I've used before. Successfully.

Links, please.

Also, surprised nobody said "linkz plox".

Saying it now. linkz plox

Inb4 roleblock

Said after jilynne just started passing out information about her role like it was a ticking time bomb. But the critical thing about this post is that it brings up the possibility of a roleblock, but it took

490

posts for jilynne to freak out about it. Something is DEFINITELY not right here.
---
Secret Project vs. Ironhead argument ensues. I probably won't get into it much, but suffice it to say that Secret Project's case is/was weak (as I've said before) while Ironhead doesn't get that Secret Project was saying that the way/why Ironhead was appealing was scummy, not that appealing is in itself scummy.
---
Post 150 (Gerhard Krause) is still scummy, but I've talked about it before. Moving on.
---
Post 199: monk puts Ironhead on his town list.

Post 210:

Also you guys want a sheep? Now that I understand why you are wanting to see more pressure on Ironhead VOTE: Ironhead

What? Ironhead goes from town to big suspect apparently. Opportunism if I ever saw it. I will grant that WormyKrew and Secret Project were posting in between 199 and 210, but they didn't actually say anything new. And monk had to have had a reason for thinking Ironhead was town, so it wasn't even a change of null to scum.

241

Gerhard is a mislynch. Trust me on this.

Sure, Gerhard is scummy. But I know better than ANYONE else (*coughcoughpastvillageidiotcoughcough*) that there's a huge difference between scummy and scum. Gerhard is the former, not the latter. The scummy posts give off a town vibe when you double-check them. They look scummy, but look like they're coming from town.

If that makes sense.

I can elaborate, of course, but I would prefer not to. And would much rather you just trust me when I say Gerhard is not scum.

I feel like you're claiming a power role or something.

Rolefishing! Who knows how Mastin might have reacted. Mastin didn't react poorly (saying it was just his playstyle) so nothing came of it but on a reread the rolefishing here is very blatant.

276:

Also, something about Wormy makes me think he's scum, but I've tried to read his posts in iso, and I haven't found exactly what's setting off my radar. I'll try to post something about it in the near future unless he somehow proves he's town to me.
[snip]
So, in a nutshell, those two are the ones that I think might be scum, but I'm not voting either, since I have nothing on them yet.

After SP votes WK in 296, in 297:

Vote: WormyKrew

So, everyone, who are the top 2 candidates for a lynch here? Everyone please reply.

So what changed? I get the feeling in 276 that jilynne doesn't want to vote WK because she, in her own words, "[has] nothing on [him] yet." But as is plainly visible she turns around and votes WK anyway. The only person advocating gut feeling strongly was SP; but Captain Corporal and Ironhead both told her to be careful about it, i..e., don't trust it completely.


321:

Alduskkel -
To be honest, I AM pretty unsure of what I'm doing. I'm accusing Secret Project of trying to pickup small mistakes and blowing them out of proportion. I guess it's not entirely AtE, then, but it is damn right an annoyance. Secret Project, time to remember Mafia is a GAME and we are here to have FUN. Nothing else. There is nothing you can accomplish by making a fool of yourself.

If you're up against a good enough Mafia team, you're never probably never going to get big obvious scumtells. So that only leaves small mistakes and the overall picture of a person's play in the game.

Let's skip to 502 for a moment:

I never said I suspected anyone on the wagon. I just said it was BS. I've said it before, I'll say it again: wrong =/= scummy.

This is bad. I never said you suspected anyone either, I simply asked if you did and why. If you didn't, is it really too much to ask to say that you didn't and move on?

Now let's go back to 323:

I do think Alduskkel's casting suspicion on the WK wagon ('cept for me) is odd, hence my question to him

Hmmm!!! Pretty sure you were saying I was suspecting people on the wagon.

Not a whole lot until 424. TWIE essentially posts theory. While I know TWIE is/was busy, what bothers me is that

when he does post

, it's not scumhunting. His iso 7 (424 being iso 8) isn't much better.

@SP again
You were the first to say we were scum? IIRC it was Yoshi or mastin was. I will reread.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: SP
For the general :terribadposting:
~Krew

Err, what? Total 180. This is what, the third vote on SP? Anyway, the reasoning here is... nonexistent. And it's bandwagoning. That plus the rolefishing (and WK's um... unique... response to DY's attack) is making me reconsider my read on WormyKrew.

527:

Lol.

No, seriously.

Just...lol.

I don't know what in that post makes me laugh, but it's just extremely lolworthy. Let out a nice good laugh.

535:

First off--apologies for my last post. It was made at 2 AM and I was highly incoherent. (Had I been coherent, though, I might have done worse. Imagine if I MASHED my head on my keyboard. )

Still, though, point remains. There is literally nothing town in that post by WormyKrew. In my highly incoherent state, I expressed this with literal laughter at just how horrible of a post it was.

The post bleeds off scumminess, and I was laughing because of it. Don't believe me? Well, I'll explain in my case. Which I'll begin working on today. Won't finish today (I warned you of this before), but I will work on it.

Except there's nothing incoherent about 527. It doesn't make me go WTF. Since when is appealing to ridicule incoherent? It's pretty clear what you were doing in that post, and your attempt to excuse it after Ironhead called you scummy for it does not sit well with me. At best you used the wrong word.


561: Mastin calls Elsa town, without explaining why. Though Mastin not explaining his reads should hardly be surprising.

597:

5. jilynne1991 <--Confirmed-town. She was obv-town before her claim, confirmed town after it.

I wouldn't go as far as confirmed town, but the possibility that she is a PR means we probably shouldn't lynch her today.

[Alduskkel]

Though that's almost to be expected, since I think Mastin gets a lot of his wall-mode playstyle from me.

HA! SO YOU ADMIT IT!
(Whatever happened to you denying that 688 was an influence on me? )

Wherefore hast thou betrayeth me, Past Alduskkel? O woe is me.
---
While I don't like the meta part of the TWIE case, I will say that it is true that TWIE has been lurking and not doing a whole lot of scumhunting. But that's not enough for me to vote him, although if the lack of scumhunting continues I will. The point is that TWIE needs to scumhunt more, rather than defend so much.

Alex was good enough for a page 5? vote. We are no longer on page 5.
At this point I would expect legitimate cases for votes. Or at least be blatant that you're sheeping.

But... you're still voting for alex. And you haven't updated your case on him, even. If you don't want to change it because you're afraid of being accused of OMGUS... then I don't understand why you're afraid of that. All it takes to dismiss OMGUS is to say, "It's not OMGUS, I am voting for X because of [reasons]."

Also, venting your frustration instead of responding to the case on you is not pro-Town play (e.g. in 753). Not necessarily scummy, since you might actually be very frustrated.

You know what causes people to say "are you fucking kidding me" like 30 times when someone's building a case on them? Knowing for a fact that the case is THAT FUCKING STUPID. And it is. It really is.

But even if the case is stupid, if someone started attacking me for BS reasons then I would be incredibly pissed

regardless of my alignment

. As Town because I know they're wrong. As Scum because that's the worst way to get "caught."
---

Did I say you were scum? I'm pretty sure I haven't done so once in this game.

lol what? I don't know if this a hilarious (and scummy) inconsistency or just a result of you being a hydra. You really need to stop acting like two different people in-thread and get both of your reads to coalesce.
---

Jily--I'll repeat. I doubt they have a roleblocker.

But Roleblocker is one of the most common scum roles. Why don't you think there is one?
Also if you're Mafia and the Mafia have a Roleblocker then there is serious scum motivation here.

Also, I just realized that putting things in a spoiler means that you can't pull a quick find in page for a word you're looking for in an iso without opening all the spoilers. So please tone down the spoilers, Mastin. Put walls in spoilers, nothing else.
---

Also,

Unvote. Vote: Alduskkel.

WK is not off the hook, not by a long shot, but Ald hasn't offered legitimate content since last Thursday, and unlike Elsa, didn't actually declare V/LA. He has parked his vote on what started as the Gerhard Krause playslot and hasn't moved it once, which on D1 is a significant scumtell for me, because (1) it indicates both a lack of proactive scumhunting using your most powerful scumhunting weapon, (2) that he has placed it where he now knows the lynch likely won't occur, so he won't be on the wagon that will be subsequently scrutinized if the lynchee flips town, and (3, and perhaps most importantly), he voted the GK slot and then doesn't do much interacting with that slot as of late--I think town is much more apt to interact with the players they think are scum to try to get them to slip further; compartmentalizing your D1 interactions is very much scummy.

This is strengthened by the reality that Ald has completely abstained from the vig-vote discussion. I was V/LA and still managed to contribute to it in my very first post back.

WK can wait. Let's lynch Alduskkel.

Let me just point to the wall above this post. That's what I've been doing for the past few days, that and rereading. I KNOW I've been playing awfully up until now. But I intend to play better, and I hope that itself will be the answer to your case.

And why didn't I vig vote? Because I wanted to reread first and then make a more informed decision over who I thought jily should target.

(This also answers wierdalex's post 743.)
---

@jil
Did you just claim Dayvig?

Possible rolefishing? Hard to say, if I were scum I would figure that jily had already completely revealed her role.
---
774: Good catch, DY.
---
At this point I suspect WormyKrew, Captain Corporal and jilynne1991, in about that order. I've got my eye on TWIE, Elsa, and Mastin too, mostly for content.

Unvote,
Vote: WormyKrew

.

Vig-Vote: Captain Corporal

.

[Alduskkel]

@Ironhead: Scum wouldn't let jily's vig go through no matter what her target's alignment was if they had anything to say about it. If her target was scum, then obviously they will stop it. If her target is town, they will stop it so that the Town is forced to use a lynch instead of a night kill on the player that was going to be vigged.

I will have more to say later.

[Alduskkel]

Selected quotes from Mastin's wall:

All I've been is Vanilla Townie, so I have no clue.

This is Alex's town-slip. There's no Weasel Wording. No, "so far" after "been". Nothing to suggest that it's changed in this game. If it had changed, I'd expect something like "Up to this point, all I've been", or "All I've been so far is", "all I've been previously is", "

All I have been is

", "All I have been in the past", etc. Something like that, if it weren't the case right now.

I didn't see that. I saw someone accidentally soft-claiming VT, without realizing they town-slipped.

This is ridiculous because the part I bolded is just what you get if you expand wierdalex's contraction (I've --> I have) in the original quote.

Also, rolefishing? You look like you're trying to get a "confirm or deny" response from wierdalex about his role.

1. wierdalexv
2. splitfarvie Scumhunter
3. Elsa von Spielburg
4. Gerhard Krause Captain Corporal
5. jilynne1991
6. TheWayItEnds
7. DarthYoshi
8. monk
9. Secret Project
10. Ironhead
11. Alduskkel
12. flinter mastin2
13. WormyKrew

This is just a matter of randomization, but I sincerely doubt both Alduskkel and WormyKrew would be scum, not that closely tied together. Yoshi, on the other hand, is right in the zone.

Of course, I can never probably shouldn't use this in-thread; people will consider it TOO insane. But it IS a valid reason in MY opinion! >_<

That is not how randomizing roles works.

2. I have a wiki. For your convenience though, I have completed 23 non-marathon games. I think that makes me one of the more experienced players in the game, although Elsa and Ironhead seem to have loads of IRL experience.

Tone in here seems a bit condescending. It sort-of gives off the impression, "Look at me! I'm more experienced than you! You can listen to me!" Like Ald is taking advantage of his experience.

You think so? Because in that very quote I shove the "these are the most experienced players" though onto Elsa and Ironhead.

Anyway, even if you're right here, when have I since tried to leverage my experience? If I were scum (and also planned to take advantage of my experience) that quote up there would only really function as a "priming" maneuver, something that would allow me to take advantage of my experience in the future.

Vote: DarthYoshi

A reasonless Random Vote. I find it a bit hard to believe, honestly.

Simply false: as I said before, if DarthYoshi had claimed to prefer playing as scum then him being the first to confirm would have been scummy.

Now, he hadn't answered my RQ yet, but I figured I'd rather vote someone who might have turned out to have committed a scum tell than Random Guy McPerson.
---

Sort of unnerved with how TWIE became the leading wagon when I think the other cases are stronger. Am also amazed that nobody except maybe Mastin seems interested in lynching Alduskkel, who, with the deadline fad approaching, is suddenly nowhere to be found again. Oh well, he can wait.

Sorry. Real life happened.
---
Now, unless we managed to have 2 scum as our leading bandwagons on Day 1, I'd wager that there's scum in the people who were trying to counterbalance the WormyKrew lynch with a TheWayItEnds lynch. Looking at brokenscraps (who also benefited most from the NK...), wierdalex, and Soben (who gunned for the TheWayItEnds lynch but then did a last minute switch to WormyKrew -- looks like scum looking for last second town cred).
---
We need to know if jily tried to vig someone. If she did, then scum almost certainly blocked it and that means that Elsa is probably town because scum who knew that they had a roleblocker would not panic over the though of being targeted by jily.

By the way, let's not forget that Mastin famously told jily that he doubted the scum had a roleblocker. I would like to reiterate that this is a pretty neat ploy by Mastin if he's scum.

[Alduskkel]

Finally:

The reasoning frankly is simple, throughout the past few days multiple players have acted in an extremely anti-town manner for the sole reason of boredom and wanting the day to end. Continual actions like this give scum ammunition to use in regards to creating cases later in the game. The only way to prevent such actions from continuing to occur is to end the day as well as openely showing Secret and Mastin that their constant tunneling towards Wormy a leading vote-getting throughout the entire day is wrong and hope for better tommorow.

Which players? How do you know those players aren't scum, in which case wouldn't you want them to continue acting extremely anti-town?

[Alduskkel]

the non-scum on the elsa wagon need to come back on the krew wagon. Yes, I realize I'm not on it. Blame my misled partner. If krew gets to L-1 I'm hammering. Also this day is getting to the point where it's just really boring and dumb and we need a lynch to refresh everyone plus go off of new information so let's hurry this up please?

Please attempt to deal with your hydra partner out of thread. Constant in-thread disagreement like you two are both showing lead towards mixed signals which creates unneeded confusion. There's also no need to rush this day, there's still a lot of players lacking any real content and Krew is still town.

PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE KNOWS THAT I HAVE A ONE SHOT I'M USING TONIGHT, BUT WHAT IF SOMEONE ROLEBLOCKS ME! I REALLY HOPE SCUM DOESN'T HAVE A ROLEBLOCKER.

... I need to talk with Scumhunter ASAP I myself just realized something. Our vote may be moving yet again.

Mod, theoretically if a one shot power role were to be roleblocked would they still retain their one shot or would it be removed.

It would be removed.

jilynne1991 lost her shot last night, so we have no way of confirming her role except by lynching her.

[Alduskkel]

@Ald: Bleh, I forgot about that (re: a one-shot losing their ability if RBed).

Okay, day before LyLo, if town hasn't already won, then Jily needs to be policy lynched. Everyone okay with this? ('Cept probably Jily. Sorry. )

While I am not on board for a jily policy lynch, I will lynch jily based on the fact that she is scummy. (See my wall.)

If I must be lynched if you guys don't win, lynch me earlier. I'm not bitter or anything, I just don't want to spend unnesecary energy on a game where I'm going to be killed. (I actually want to spend my summer productively, but I'd hate to replace out.)

Anyways, I don't think I'm good at finding scum or anything.

To be honest I was suprised when Wormy flipped scum too.

You know what? Forget it, keep me around as long as you want. Btw, it's fine, DarthYoshi. I understand your reasoning.

I'd much prefer it if you actually did some scumhunting beyond gut and some weak scumtells thrown in on occasion.

One of Ald or Yoshi should be lynched today.

Why the hell am I scum, again? You never finished your damn overview/reread/note-posting for this game, you just posted the first few pages. (Why has everyone but me forgotten about this?)

Iso me or something. I feel exactly like DarthYoshi: You're not giving me much of a case to respond to.

This is ridiculous because the part I bolded is just what you get if you expand wierdalex's contraction (I've --> I have) in the original quote.

No. "I've" is NOT the same as "I have". The difference is very subtle. But it gives off a different message. It's a very slight difference, but it gives off that altered tone, altered message.

Then what is the difference? You're going to have to elaborate. As it is you're just dismissing my argument without explaining why I'm wrong.

Also, rolefishing?

Why did you think I didn't want to post the town-slip?

Don't me. I'm talking about a legitimate scumtell from you.

That is not how randomizing roles works.

And--of course--you pick the very weakest part of my argument to attack.

Since I didn't want a repeat of Newbie 748 (explanation: walls between me and Mastin each responding to the entire previous wall), I picked things that were especially wrong. And that's why it is the weakest part of your argument, because it is particularly wrong.

Now, unless we managed to have 2 scum as our leading bandwagons on Day 1, I'd wager that there's scum in the people who were trying to counterbalance the WormyKrew lynch with a TheWayItEnds lynch.

Dang. Someone beat me to it.

Yeah, the someone you think is scum right now. If I'm scum, then why did I post that? Are you saying you agree with someone you think is scum, then? Especially on a point about who's scum...

Also, Ald's overall suspects are...shall we say...quite weak. Me, the three above, no vote, and...pretty much no commentary about other players. (He called TWIE and Elsa town, but aside from that, he is leaving himself open to vote for...pretty much any player on the list.)

Umm, what? I told you who I suspected right around the time I posted my wall. They were WormyKrew, Captain Corporal, and jilynne. Then I listed you, Elsa, and TWIE as people who I wanted to see more content from and were a bit scummy (but, take note, not scummy enough to make it to my primary suspect list) because they were/are lurkers.

This looks like scum covering their tracks for not being on the scum-lynching wagon.

Lines like this (not to mention overall tone) are one of the reasons Yoshi continues to be right there at the top of my list.

Okay, day before LyLo, if town hasn't already won, then Jily needs to be policy lynched.

Let me put this in the best possible wording:

No

.

Man, remember when you explained things Mastin? That was great. I remember those days. Good times.

I'd like to see more explaining and less unsubstantiated statements with excessive amounts of smilies.

And your [DarthYoshi] post here is yet another example of why you continue to be at the top with Ald, making it harder for me to stay on him. Trying to get me onto Alex, for instance.

Maybe DarthYoshi is trying to get you to vote for wierdalex because he wants wierdalex lynched because he believes him to be scum,

which is the pro-town thing to do

.

This is really dumb. I am pretty sure DarthYoshi is town.

Ald gave commentary on only a few. Sure, on a few names, he commented on. But on others, he ignored.

I tell you who I suspect. On occasion, I give other reads. But my suspect list should be sufficient in itself. I could comment on other players, but it would be a whole lot of telling you why I think they're town or why I have a null read on them or whatever.
---
For the record, my plans are to iso WormyKrew, Captain Corporal, brokenscraps, Soben, and wierdalex, i.e., the people I suspect/people I feel might have a strong connection to WormyKrew (or are WormyKrew). jilynne isn't worth isoing. I might iso other people, too, if I feel the need.

Don't expect posts to go with all those isos though, unless I find some good connections.

[Alduskkel]

Oh, and until those isos are done I won't be voting. Just saying this since Mastin was getting on my case for not having voted yet today.

[Alduskkel]

@Ald: If you're not going to vote and not going to give us a suspect list in lieu of a vote, then you are not looking a whole lot more townish than you were D1.

I told you I suspect Captain Corporal and jilynne, and will be looking at some people who might have connections to WormyKrew.

Anyway, I don't actually care a whole lot what you think about me since it's just you and Mastin right now. It'll only be a problem if we hit lylo, really.

Mod: I am also V/LA until July 5th.

[Alduskkel]

OK what happened was my router was apparently fried after I got back from vacation. So I will be posting soon.

[Alduskkel]

Sorry. When you're behind it's hard to work up the willpower to catch up.

But if you're wondering I'm working on it literally right now.

[Alduskkel]

[Random note that doesn't have to do with suspects: It seems like WK knows DY is town in this post.

I'm going to give some town cred to wierdalex for a change. I don't think this helps a scum wierdalex much unless the team is DarthYoshi and wierdalex. In which case that's something of a WTF.

On the other hand, wierdalex also gives random, unexplained town points to Elsa in 1011. He just says he finds things about her genuine, without saying why they are genuine.
---
Anyway, let's get to TwistedSpoon's impressively large catch-up posts.

I can't really argue about me not doing a whole lot Day 1. For that matter, Day 2 has been pretty lackluster to say the least. I would say that this is kind of arbitrary though:

I had completely forgotten about TheWay's existence

I'd class him as town for now though since I'm sold on scum being in {Elsa, Aldusskel, Alex}

In terms of coasting, I'd say TWIE should definitely be a consideration if Elsa and me are also considerations. But with neither TWIE nor TS being dead now connections between them will only be useful if one flips scum.

What I get from 1017: I'm scum for pretty much not doing a whole lot. Maybe throw in the supposed wagoning of CC (who actually has never been seriously up for lynching).

Fair enough, I guess. Though, TS agrees with me on some points in there, so at the very least he must think I am contributing some. Whereas he barely mentions TWIE. Aside from the above quote, he says he'll "trust Mastin on TWIE being town."

Yeah, if TWIE is scum then TS is too, and vice versa.

immediately obvious is this

Town-
DarthYoshi
Jilynne1991
Alduskkel
Secretproject

Alduskkel as a town read, what's wrong with that? Well this reference is the only time in the krew ISo that he ever mentions Alduskkel. At all...

You know who else is on that town list and isn't mentioned beforehand either? SecretProject and DarthYoshi. And while both of those people are mentioned later, WormyKrew does not have any hard interactions with them. There's questioning and such, but it's very light. And not too different from just ignoring them.

I get that you don't bother noting that for SecretProject. But considering that you said DarthYoshi was suspect in 1017, I would have thought you would have said something about that too.

Additionally, WormyKrew also barely mentions TWIE either. One time he calls him a null read. Another time he indicates some suspicion. And the last time he makes a lackluster survivalist vote on him. I don't remember who said it before, but if there were 2 scum wagons Day 1, as I am beginning to suspect, then scum wouldn't care too much about which way the lynch was shifted. And that would correspond with both TWIE and WK not pushing each other too hard. In fact, TWIE never voted WK.

The most outrageous thing about 1020 is that it does not address even the existence of my wall. Seriously? That wall probably contains as much content as the entire rest of my posts. For an iso of me it's pretty pathetic actually.

@Everyone (especially mastin though)

Wormy, I take it you're town?

Crap. Well, what Corporal and Soben said.

Do you find this a townslip?

I have already said I do, but want other opinions.

It looked here like alex genuinely did not know that krew was scum

Based off of what wierdalex said in 1050, it's not a townslip.
---
Mastin 1046: I'd be interested in seeing what you think after you reread or ISO Soben.

Contrary to popular belief, I disagree with TwistedTown. His posts haven't really been townish, imo - and he doesn't seem to be acting as the TS I know. Added with the fact that I had a scumread on brokenscraps...
VOTE: Twistedspoon

Sounds like you have meta. Link(s), please.

So probably scum in
{DarthYoshi; jilynne1991; Alduskkel}
Hm...changes a bit. With the jilynne-townslip, that means one of DarthYoshi and Alduskkel is probably scum, most likely Alduskkel; have you noticed the way that WK called him town and then [literally, I looked through ISO] never brought him up again?

What the hell is this? "Let's steal something from TS [which was flawed in the first place], imply that I came up with it*, and vote Ald over it."? This is really awful and is simply bandwagoning.

*The "have you noticed" part implies that no one has noticed it but wierdalex.

@Everyone: How much have you seen SleepyKrew bus?

I have never seen SleepyKrew bus. But then, I have never played in a game with SleepyKrew before or even read a game that he has been in.

DarthYoshi brings up a good point about CC in 1064. Coupled with all the earlier stuff about CC I and others have mentioned:

Vote: Captain Corporal

.

Okay, at least in this post, you go from explicitly saying I look town to saying that I deserve suspect status without detailing the change in opinion. Please do so. I am not asking you to do so because I find you to be scummy, but because I feel I need to end this "Ald and Yoshi are equally scummy" goop once and for all--if you look at our ISOs side-by-side, there should be little question as to who has been more townish.

Yes, how dare we be linked. Although I think DY is town, if he's scum then I could see him trying to clear out the "If Ald isn't scum, DarthYoshi is" mentality so that if/when I get lynched (or NK'd... but that's unlikely) he isn't next in line.

Stop wasting time on the smaller wagons. Things like Captain suspicion need to die.
Quickly.

It's not happening today. Most people with more than half a brain are realizing that Gerhard was town, and therefore Captain was town, with Captain's continued actions bleeding town.

And even those who don't have Captain as town, who have him as null or weak scum, realize that there will never be enough support for a lynch on him. Nor SHOULD there be.

Blatant railroading. How dare we consider other lynch options.

1075, 1077, and 1080 are just awful posts in general. If I have to explain why, let me know... but I don't think I do. Soben and DarthYoshi covered it mostly anyway.

I am not a moron.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[With regards to Soben.]Nope, not just one head of you.
Since THIS post has that EXACT same tone.

Yes Mastin. Obviously both heads of Soben are going to switch tone in the exact same way since they're scum and all. Great logic. A++ Gold stars and all that.

For that single link, I bet you I can find a hundred links to counter it. Or can look into the specific incident and see how unusual it is. (Obviously, there are always going to be special situations in which things aren't normal. But said situations are exceptions to the norm and generally have a darn-good reason things played out that way.)

"Never" might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I will spend the time to prove to you how counterwagons to a scum lynch wagon...aren't scum. I know I can do it, because it's something I've observed everywhere.

This is very dumb. How many examples would you have to see to be convinced that double scum wagons do occur? What you're doing is just moving goalposts.

still liking soben town very much due to krew buddying. Krew has no motivation to buddy to a scumpartner so obviously

@Scumhunter
Hi. I like you.

You're really clinging to this, aren't you?

I want to hear from both ald and TWIE anyways, and this quote I found in the ald ISO makes me feel better about aldscum

WormyKrew wagon is BS with basically no decent reasoning from anyone except DarthYoshi. I'd say that everyone but DY has to explain their reasoning in their next post.

I thought I'd be seeing that quote at some point. And if I could go back, I'd say it again. And again. What I said there was perfectly true. There

was

no decent reasoning. Defending scum is NOT a scumtell if the defense is perfectly valid. Try again.

Been thinking about this for the past day or so...I wondered on D1 if my inability to get much support for an Ald lynch was either because I was out of the loop and EVERYONE else thought he was town or because his scumbuddies just ignored my attempts to wagon him. Or both, I guess.

However, with a change in personnel for the game, Ald is getting more attention as of late, so increasing that pressure seems in order to see, if he is scum, if we can find them based on their reactions to this pressure. Ald has two votes on him for, I think, the first time all game, and since really, he and TWIE have simply been trading the #1 and 2 spots at the end of D1 as well as currently, I'm happy to make it three.

(Also, as an aside, having thought on it some more, I'm beginning to think his "I don't care what you think of me" line to me and Mastin was bravado and little more. Town wouldn't put it that way, I think.)

Unvote. Vote: Alduskkel.

So you suddenly change from TWIE to me? With no explanation as to how I'm suddenly scummier? Good job. I'm surprised at your bandwagoning, DY.

To the part in parentheses: How would town put it, then?

@DarthYoshi: My point on Alduskkel being hypocritical depends on the reasoning for why WK was being avoided. I personally didn't get the WK case and was too busy defending myself (which is kind of embarrasing, I'm not too happy with my play this game).

Since when am I hypocritical? And waitaminuteweren'tyoucallingmetownearlier.

1001:

TheMastin
/\
Alduskkel--DarthYoshi

Looks?????
/\
Town--Town
To me. Not sure about Mastin ATM, he has really...strange reasoning, which is his meta, but he never explains his reads, which is totally against his wallpost-like-there's-no-tomorrow meta.

So you suddenly switch to me? Without even saying you agree with TS? I also went back and checked your stance on TWIE. In 938 you vote for him. Then in 1011 you call him town, while still voting for him. Then later you go back to calling him scum. What?

Screw CC.

Unvote.
Vote: wierdalexv

.

As noted above, I believe wierdalexv's "townslip" to be null. I am mildly enthusiastic about lynching him, but I am also amenable to lynching Alduskkel, TWIE, or jilynne1991.

You though I was town earlier Ironhead. T_T

Why am I suspect now?

Firstly, I'm not seeing Aldscum. Despite the fact he's had his vote on me near all game, I don't understand the case on him.
More coming soon.

IRONY

IT IS CURRENTLY PALPABLE

@All: Would you support a jilynne wagon?

Yes, absolutely.

Hey look, a very nice summary of the case on me by DY. I mean that sincerely, it's great to be able to address something concise.

@Soben:

The case on Ald revolves around a few things--

-The "null" nature of his posts, something you yourself admit.

-Low activity level, something Ald himself admits, but does so in such a way, and with such emphasis, that much of his activity has been to justify his lack of quality activity, rather than actual scumhunting.

Plus, there are a couple D1 scumtells--

-Ald parking his vote on what was the Gerhard slot, a slot that never came under serious scrutiny, which to me looked like parking a vote somewhere to avoid scrutiny of it; I noted this as a scumtell when I first voted Ald, and I noted it as a scumtell today with Elsa's vote on CC.

-The WK association--On D1, Ald was attempting to discredit the WK wagon by asking everyone on it (save me) to justify why they were on it, and pronouncing himself unsatisfied with that wagon--BUT, he still joined that wagon, which suggests a buddy bussing to avoid suspicion after the scumflip.

That's the case on Ald in a nutshell. Independently, he is rather scummy. In association with WK, he is in fact very scummy.

CC's little "I'm not seeing Aldscum" ditty is noted for the same reason. If Ald does flip scum, I think CC deserves being under the microscope next.

Completely unrelated, these past series of posts seriously are making it difficult for me to conclude if Jily is really really suspicious or just a VI.

-Null is not a scum tell. Obviously.
-If I get lynched based off of activity... well I'll partially deserve that. Playing Mafia just isn't as much fun as it used to be, and I hate that. Not trying to get your sympathy here or anything, just explaining.
-The vote parking is a side effect of the low activity.
-I called the wagon BS, and rightly. Then I reread and came up with some of my own scumtells on him, and some of yours DarthYoshi. I think my thought process looks very natural (well, ok,

of course

I think that...): I called out the unsubstantiated votes on WK. I reread. I see things in a new light (that's what's supposed to happen when you reread) and make my own case and vote WK.

[5 days ago]OK what happened was my router was apparently fried after I got back from vacation. So I will be posting soon.

[3 days ago]Sorry. When you're behind it's hard to work up the willpower to catch up.

But if you're wondering I'm working on it literally right now.

Man, Past Alduskkel was a total douchebag.

This also helps the process of elimination as a part of the alduskkel case, as wormykrew's townlist contained me, ald, jily, and sp. I know i am town, and we all know sp was town, and if we think wk would have stuck a buddy on his townlist, then ald would have to be it. Go go go wagon, go.

Does this have to be true? I think not. Scum don't always have to put at least one buddy on their town list. How well do you know SleepyKrew/earworm's scum playstyles?

Twie flaking is...dunno what to make of this, usually flaking is null to me, but there is part of my gut that is wondering if he flaked out after (and because) his buddy was lynched.

I'd like to think that TWIE isn't a jerk like that. I mean, he's a jerk and all, but I hope it's not like that. (Kidding, kidding... )

Ald is still a null read with me. I really don't see where anyone is coming from with this.
That said...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ald
Maybe that will give you the motivation to catch up >_>
I believe you're at L-1. I want a claim.
I've seen pressure get scum before.

I'd like to see if you're doing this for pressure or are actually bandwagoning on me. If it's the first I actually respect that, though I don't really succumb to pressure nowadays.

Speaking of me claiming, I refuse to claim unless someone tells me that they're going to hammer me. It's just a question of what I consider optimal play.

i still haven't heard from ald since i replaced in

since the playerlist was one of the main reasons why i chose to do so, I would be slightly dissapointed...

What, you joined this game partially to play with me? I'm flattered if that's the case.
---
I'd be up for a CC, alex, or jilynne lynch right now.

Still need to ISO some people. But catching up to the game took a while and right now I'm tired. I'm almost hoping that it'll take a while to get a TWIE replacement.

[Alduskkel]

ROFL at TwistedSpoon and Mastin reading the same damn post and coming up with complete opposite interpretations.

That said, Mastin, you lob an awful lot of accusations in 1193. I hope you've got something to back up each and every one of those.

[Alduskkel]

Not really. The funny thing is, I'm pretty sure the old Mastin was based off of the old Alduskkel.

Why is jilynne suspicious?

First of all, jilynne has done practically nothing this whole game. Second, SP brought up the possibility of a roleblock but it took 490 posts for jilynne to react to that. As if all of a sudden she was SUPER CONCERNED about there being a roleblocker. I noted this before in my wall. Thirdly, the whole not knowing what a QT is seems very unlikely to be true. Soben's been all over that one.

jilynne's way of scumhunting and the fact that people don't really pressure her a whole lot, whether because of her supposed newbiness/cluelessness (the latter of which she has previously used as a scum tactic) means that she just sort of hops onto whatever wagon she feels like.

[Alduskkel]

EBWOP: 1st sentence is directed at 1199.

[Alduskkel]

@TwistedSpoon 1203: You don't know? It's kind of a neat scum ploy. Since jilynne has claimed to be 1-shot that means that even if we nail a Mafia RB she still can't prove her role to us. It means that all the fire she was under D1 was pretty much dispelled. Interestingly, WormyKrew continued his suspicion for far longer than most other people. This is quite possibly because he knew she was scum and wanted to get town points if ever she was killed. Or maybe because he knew she was faking it he perceived her as more scummy and continued to pursue her in that faux town mindset.

Also, 1-shot vigilantes are probably not going to be counterclaimed. They're one of the more rare roles, I think.

I have to agree with Mastin, Post #1189 by Alduskkel was all over the place. It involved him pointing out decently strong town-tells from Alex and Yoshi and then progressing to cast a level of suspicion and questioning upon them later in the post along with a vote placed on Alex with a real lack of reasoning for the change of mind.

I've actually been somewhat suspicious of wierdalex for much of the game. Check my wall, for instance. The key thing to note here is that the town tell from alex and the scum tell from DY are isolated incidents.

I fail to understand what he attempts to gain by linking WK and SP and stating that there was a lack of hard interactions between them because there very clearly was

WK didn't really make it clear where he stood on DY and SP's alignment until that post where he wrote down all of his reads.

furthermore he avoids taking any real stances on the more active or vocal players in the game and progresses to FoS'ing certain lurkers which is reasonable if he can explain how their level of lurking or contentless posting is a scum-tell but isn't for others such as Elsa or TWIE.

I'm not really lurker hunting right now. Yes, jilynne is partly scummy for lurking, but everything else I said is actually the main bulk of the case IMO.

Which players, by the way, do you specifically want me to talk about? I'm around, and if I can do it quickly enough I'll tell you what I think about them. But it is past 2 A.M. and I'm not at my most coherent.

With all that said I don't find the post particulary scummy, just bad and I'm uneasy with any consideration of a quicklynch when content is actually starting to pick up in the thread.

Why would you consider quicklynching now? No rush. In fact, we should definitely wait for a TWIE replacement before ending the Day I think.

[Alduskkel]

The bandwagoning and switch from TWIE to me was kind of shameless. But I'm probably OMGUSing at least somewhat.

[Alduskkel]

I'll talk about Ironhead and then go to bed.
---
First off, WormyKrew spent a whole bunch of the game riding with SP to try and bring Ironhead down. WormyKrew was actually getting volatile with Ironhead (e.g. potholing "Appeal to Contradiction" to the Wikipedia article on "Sense of Humor." It doesn't read as scum passively bussing for future town points. It reads as scum going for a mislynch.

I don't think that scum would strongly bus Day 1, with the exception of near the end when it became clear that it was either TWIE or WK who was going to be lynched.

As for Ironhead's posts...

He starts off hitting the ground running in iso 0, with a decent vote for early page 2. That's town who immediately starts scumhunting.

Then he gets into and argument with Secret Project which looks a lot like Town vs. Town. There's a fair amount of tunneling going on, with both players seemingly becoming more and more convinced the other is scum with each post the other makes. Ironhead also uses a sort of "by the book" scumhunting method (especially early on, naming Appeals and such), like someone who has a very good idea on how they're going to scumhunt, as opposed to someone who is just going to fake scumhunting.

Later, Ironhead switches his vote from SP to WK. And later still, after switching to TWIE he switches back to WK again, setting them at L-2 and L-4, respectively. This is NOT what scum want to do to their partner. Assuming TWIE is town, Ironhead-scum would be content to just ride that mislynch.

On a more general note, Ironhead is an active scumhunter who spreads his attention enough to avoid tunneling (except with SP) while focusing in on his scum reads. He doesn't sheep other people and provides valuable insights into the game.

In other words, Ironhead is one of my top town reads.
---
And I'll get to other players tomorrow.

[Alduskkel]

Ald's case on me is lolfail. Townpoints should NOT be given for that.

On the other hand, wierdalex also gives random, unexplained town points to Elsa in 1011. He just says he finds things about her genuine, without saying why they are genuine.

I think it's pretty obvious that I meant the way she came to the conclusion of no competing scum wagons. Not that I agree, but she seemed to mean it.

Yeah, but

why

did she seem to mean it? That's what I'm getting at here.

Oh, and strictly speaking this is not part of my "case" on you UNLESS in the future Elsa flips scum.

So probably scum in
{DarthYoshi; jilynne1991; Alduskkel}
Hm...changes a bit. With the jilynne-townslip, that means one of DarthYoshi and Alduskkel is probably scum, most likely Alduskkel; have you noticed the way that WK called him town and then [literally, I looked through ISO] never brought him up again?

What the hell is this? "Let's steal something from TS [which was flawed in the first place], imply that I came up with it*, and vote Ald over it."? This is really awful and is simply bandwagoning.

Lol. Just lol. Read the rest of the post, I made it pretty obvious why I thought so and I don't see where TS came to this.

What's even worse:

*The "have you noticed" part implies that no one has noticed it but wierdalex.

...

...

...

....
hehehehehe
....
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
...
That's actually hilarious.

No. Try again.

@DarthYoshi: My point on Alduskkel being hypocritical depends on the reasoning for why WK was being avoided. I personally didn't get the WK case and was too busy defending myself (which is kind of embarrasing, I'm not too happy with my play this game).

Since when am I hypocritical? And waitaminuteweren'tyoucallingmetownearlier.

You're calling people out for people avoiding the WK wagon when you avoided the wagon yourself. Oh, and I think I explained my read-change.

I avoided the wagon for legitimate reasons. Funnily enough, plenty of people are willing to notice that I did at first defend WK but what isn't getting noticed is that I defended him for very good reasons; namely, the wagon on him was, at the time, almost without any reasons to back it up.

I don't even know how to respond to that. I don't see how it's scummy to imply you came up with something when you really DID come up with something.

I don't know if you're faking this or not. Are you just not reading the thread closely?

Ald's not going to claim until he's kept at L-1 and someone threatens to hammer. Make it happen, now. LOCK HIM INTO A CLAIM HE CAN'T BACK OUT OF. Put the pressure on him. DON'T GIVE HIM THE TIME TO THINK OF A FAKECLAIM. If he's scum, MAKE HIM CLAIM BEFORE HE HAS THE DETAILS WORKED OUT--the flaws in his claim will nail him as scum.

Pfft. Trying to get me to claim for the sake of getting me to claim.

The Scumteam for Mini 1180 is WormyKrew, Alduskkel, and Soben.

When I die, or when Soben dies (presuming Soben is town), I am going to laugh. You get so dead sure of things Mastin -- and then bam, you're wrong. The irony is that it's happened before but you don't see it happening now. And you should remember, too. That's why you're mastin2 now and not Mastin.

You know what's going to happen? One of us is going to flip town. Then you'll be left with nothing because you are looking into nothing else right now. In a manner that perfectly describes the act of boring through the earth to create an elongated hole to some already decided destination. Or, more succinctly, tunneling.

This seems like a case of "the more I say it, the more true it is."

I share these thoughts, claiming earlier is much more optimal than later as it allows time to look elsewhere whereas a last minute claim could potentially lead to a blitz vote occuring due to deadline issues and is something that needs to be avoided.

Alduskkel, I don't care if you prefer to refrain from claiming until intent to hammer is put forward, you need to claim in your next post. Refusal to do so will be treated as a scum-claim.

OTOH this actually does convince me I should claim.

I am a vanilla townie.

I'd also love to see them keep me alive, too. Because the longer I'm kept alive, the more dangerous I am. The more likely I am to screw them over.

Except you're wrong. If I were scum and not Alduskkel or Soben, then you'd be around for a long time because you're pushing a mislynch now and will probably be pushing one tomorrow.

I just think the one on Ald is much stronger, especially in light of him chainsaw-defending WK on D1 by casting suspicion on, like, the entire WK wagon.

Alright, this is the worst crap I have ever seen.

We've been over this.

I did NOT cast suspicion on the people on the WK wagon!! You said I did, I corrected you. This should be over.

BTW, CC went in a few days from saying he didn't see the case on Ald to putting Ald at L-1 and demanding a claim.

This is a good catch though.

1254-1258: Mostly good stuff.

You guys.

JUST LET ALD GET AWAY WITHOUT A SCRATCH. He's surviving, HE'S ESCAPED ATTENTION, exactly what I had warned you he would do.
The attention has been shifted from Ald (scum) onto Captain. (TOWN TOWN TOWN TOWN, OH SO VERY TOWN!)

And do you know who the primary driving force of this switch is?

Soben.

Geez this is an exaggeration. Yes, I am going to fade into the background Mastin even though I have been getting focus for a bunch of the day. Really, suspicions of me aren't so much dwindling a whole lot as people are considering other suspects.

If I survive today then I won't be surprised if I get lynched Day 3 or 4 anyway.

Gerhard. Let's start with him.
He begins his game voting WormyKrew. As an RVS, but still. Does that look like a bus in the RVS to you?

Weak. People bus in the RVS practically just as much as they don't.

He then immediately engages in legitimate scumhunting. He goes after Alex and locks onto Alex as scum immediately. This is not scum taking advantage of a weaker player. This is town, legitimately seeing something which looked scummy and pursuing it.

He doesn't lock into it. He votes jily the very next post.

Gerhard also commits a town-tell, by voting Jily after her claim. He thought she was scum, and didn't notice her claim. It's a minor tell, which you'd think would be null, but scum tend to read the thread closer and would instantly have noticed the claim, compared to town, who frequently miss details like that. It's also something you can't fake that well.

No. Scum don't read as closely because they don't care as much about scumhunting. Town examine details and look for every possibly scumtell. Well, the good ones at least.

There's also the fact that despite replacing out, he still put the work into the game and wanted to leave with the best he could give.

That's just called being nice.

I had defended Gerhard as town at the time, and he had a scumread on me. WHAT KIND OF SCUM CALLS THEIR DEFENDER SCUM? That's a signature (paranoid) town-move, extremely hard to fake.

Look, Mastin. I don't know if you know this, but as scum I try to be very genuine. I usually don't make stuff up just so I can hop onto a wagon or whatever. I try to see what I would find scummy as town and follow through with that. My point is that Gerhard can easily be someone like me. Someone who says what they think they'd think.

So it's not hard to fake.

And he uses my own tells (Tone, Motive, a little bit of Interaction) against me. I realize this doesn't seem significant and it probably was not intentional--but the fact that he used those three tells, against me, means that he was really scumhunting. Since (quite frankly) I can't fake seeing those tells in another. That scumhunting method is completely honest, truthful, and unbiased. Scum can't fake it, scum have trouble using it effectively. It's a signature town move.

Really? You can't fake that as scum? Link me the most recent finished scum game of yours, Mastin.

NINJAS: UNVOTE:

VOTE: ald

if ald flips scum we'll look at soben tommorow, K?

Err... Mastin convinces you just like that? What's wrong with what you said in your previous post? What's wrong with what alex said? What's wrong with what DY said? What's wrong with what Soben said?

Still, looks town enough. It'd be very easy to stay on CC at that point.

Enters with scumhunting,

CC did not enter with scumhunting. Or, at best, it was light and based on "feelings." (CC's words.)

He trusts in his predecessor's reads. This is a personal town-tell of mine. A signature scum move is to go completely against your (scummy) predecessor's views and take up an entirely new stance to (hopefully) become more favorable.

??? He does go against his predecessor's reads -- he feels Ironhead is town.

A TOWN signature is to trust entirely in your predecessor and acknowledge their wisdom.

I'm glad you're not replacing jilynne.

A TOWN signature is to trust entirely in your predecessor and acknowledge their wisdom. This is especially important if the predecessor was extremely scummy. By embracing the reads of the scummy player, the person is essentially saying, "my predecessor wasn't scummy by thinking this". In other words, they're not trying to get a Fresh Start which many towns freely give to replacements.

You can be scummy and have your reads be correct. I don't think anyone thought Gerhard was scummy because of his reads.

I've observed it in others as well. I see pro-town players frequently employ the logic of their predecessors, and sum players just ignore their predecessor and ask the town to do the same. It might not be something we actively decide to do, but it happens.

Links, please.

There's also favorable interactions with WormyKrew. And the fact that he was legitimately scumhunting on Secret. Look at Captain's early posts, and you'll realize he was pushing Secret as scum--something which could only have come from a pro-town player reading Secret as scum.

But, as other people said, he was calling WK scum without calling for his lynch. Grade-A bussing.

WHY WOULD THE SCUM NK SOMEONE ONE OF THEIR MEMBERS HEAVILY WAS PUSHING AS SCUM?!??

Because Secret Project was not a suspect that could be maintained. He was just too pro-Town looking when WK flipped scum.

There was no point in saying this as scum. Contrary to popular belief, scum do not say obvious stuff like that, anymore. This was a town-reaction.

Why?

Dang, I wanted an actual reaction from Captain Corporal, I thought that would be obvious enough that nooone would unvote until he got a chance to post. Yes, I Alduskkel is a better lynch. CC is still a good candidate for tomorrow, though.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Alduskkel

How convenient. Wagon dies, go back to the convenient Alduskkel lynch.

If Jily is town we ought to look at who she was supposed to be targeting becuase if I were scum and I figured the vig would be shooting a town, I might just say screw it and let the shot go through...

In case you forgot, I believe jily was going to target alex.
---
Still have to get to read summaries. Argh. But I think explaining scum reads will prove more productive.

[Alduskkel]

If you flip town I'll look at alex, obviously.

I don't really care to connect you to anyone who I think might be your scumpartner. If/When you flip scum there will be plenty of time to look at interactions. If you don't then whoops!! Huge waste of time looking at all those connections. So why bother? Interactions with WK are the most important... interactions right now.

[Alduskkel]

Wall incoming. But it'll be a while.

[Alduskkel]

@Mod: I contend that jily has barely participated today in much the same way that TWIE didn't either. Going all of Day 2 without the presence of a player slot is a bit much. So, if possible, please extend the deadline.

Yes, this is partly to stall my lynch so hopefully enough people will switch to CC. BTW, since alex isn't happening:

Unvote.
Vote: Captain Corporal

---

Spoiler: Wall

Mastin's case pisses me off in terms of how wrong it is.

These are not the same thing. "I voted Yoshi for being the first to confirm. It woulda been a scumtell had you said you preferred to play as scum." That part in both of them is fine. It is the same. The contradiction in here comes from what isn't there. "Pretty RVS". Does not translate to "rather vote someone who might have committed a scumtell rather than Random".

First of all, this is incredibly minor. But, more importantly, when I said "pretty RVS" I meant that it was a very weak vote although I will concede that it isn't random.

However, I fail to see how there is

any

scum motivation to this petty inconsistency.

160 additionally contains some suspicious interactions with WormyKrew, in the form of Ald's "Hardly".

Vague at best. I'd like to see the full story behind this one!

@Secret Project 104 (not quoting the whole thing): Don't you think it's more likely that Ironhead's posting style change is due to our shift from the goofy RVS/RQS stage to serious mafia business time?

Call it parroting, call it fluff, call it active lurking, call it whatever. This was not new insight, but it was passed off as an attempt to look that way. People had already essentially addressed this as early as Split's post.

Of course it was discussed. But point me to a post where someone raises the idea that the shift was due to a shift in gameplay (RVS-->serious time).

Overall jilynne seriously tells newbtown. And her answer to the RQS regarding experience backs that up (6 ongoing, none finished).

Ironhead... doesn't seem to understand the case against him. Secret Project is accusing you of shifting over to more refined/sophisticated posting to seem more pro-town. He calls it "Appeal to Logic" which is a terrible name in my opinion.

Reading this out of context, it looks like great scumhunting, right? Like it contains valuable insight into the game?

Well, sorry to inform you, there's nothing in there which hadn't been said before. From Jily Newbtown to Ironhead. It also contains a bit of hypocrisy, as guess what Ald quotes immediately after that? A post by Ironhead, which he responds to with

This reads as OMGUS to me. Obviously when Secret Project asked if everyone was scum in the game, he was using hyperbole, regardless of his alignment. You're nitpicking grammar and basing a vote off of that and the fact that you think that he thinks you're scummy for being logical. This is not the case.

...Casting weak suspicion towards Ironhead.

There's nothing hypocritical there. I did cast suspicion on Ironhead, but there's nothing in my post that contradicts that.

Oh, and what was I supposed to do? Not say anything? jily was in the spotlight, and you'd probably accuse me of lurking or something if I had ignored her. Even if I have nothing new to say, it is for the best if I give my thoughts. Oh, and my Ironhead comments? Were completely new insight. No posts talking about Ironhead not actually understanding the case on him before mine.

@Alduskkel: You see Gerhard's derp vote on Jily as a scumtell and not a town tell, why?

That says it better than I ever could.

Thanks for ignoring my answer to this question. *facepalm*

Let me ask you all this: does anyone here disagree with WormyKrew having put one scumbuddy in the town section, and one scumbuddy in the scum section? (Split/Scumhunter/Soben and Gerhard/Captain are both in the scum section.)

It's worthy noting that pretty much all of WormyKrew's suspects were extremely weak, and it REEKS of bussing in there. But what stinks even more is the town-list. Ald had posted pretty much nothing of content at that time--how the heck did WormyKrew get a town-read on Ald? Quite frankly, I do believe WormyKrew just stereotypically followed the "one buddy scum, one buddy town" tactic. This makes all of the Null names town, all of the Town names minus Ald as town, and one of the Scum names as actual scum (Split/Soben), with the others being town. It's almost certainly not Ironhead; those interactions do not look like bussing at ALL. It's VERY doubtfully Alex.
Leaving {Gerhard/Captain, Split/Soben} as containing one scum. You're mislynching Captain, but in doing so, you'll be condemning Soben to death, finally, along with Ald.

Yoshi/Ald containing one scum is pretty much a guarantee. This post where both Yoshi and Ald are mysteriously on the town-list for no apparent reason, kinda solidifies that as one reason among many. And WormyKrew's interactions with DarthYoshi do not give off the scum interacting with scum vibe. (Quite the opposite.) WormyKrew's interactions with Ald suggest...
...
. . .

......WHAT interactions with Ald? (...Yeah.)

So many assumptions! It could have been buddying. It could be that he liked what few posts I had then. You assume that he was following the 1 scum 1 town strategy. I've also pointed out that WK didn't interact with a lot of other people, including ones he put on his town list.

Ald's next post is 251.

If you're not reading the thread before making a response, you obviously don't care about getting the full information available about your case and vote. Scum, as people not truly interested in catching scum, are more likely to do this.

This is the polar opposite of the truth, and Ald of all people should know this. It's backwards--the people less interested in reading the thread aren't scum. They're town, who're bored. AKA, VTs. (Which fits perfectly with Captain's roleclaim--the slot was playing like a VT. As Secret pointed out, this applied to Captain just as much as Gerhard.) See also: Jily, a perfect example. She wasn't lying when she said she is more interested in the games where she's scum. And if you doubt that's enough, you can also look into me, and realize that this was close to MY belief as well. I put more attention into interesting games. And while if I was under heavy pressure (AKA, close to being lynched), a town-game would be interesting to me, quite frankly, the scum games held my interest a lot more frequently.

It's a frequent town-tell.

Double standard ahoy. CC and jily are town for disinterest in the game -- but I'm not? Wouldn't it make sense if I was a VT too?

Oh, and I actually believe that scum don't read as close Mastin. I don't lie about theory! No matter my alignment. You could ask me post game and my answer would be the same. It doesn't really apply to the more experienced players (except for lurky ones), but for newer players who don't post a lot (like GK) it's applicable.

??? I can scumhunt and AtE at the same time. I could just build up a decent case but also appeal to emotions (possibly separately).

This was both 1: unnecessary, and 2: condemning interactions with WormyKrew.

1. This was just talking about a bit of theory with WK. 2. You don't support this at all. How is it "condemning"?

Oh god, Newbie 748. What wallful nightmare.

This is another instance of Ald hypocrisy--guess who's been consistently wallposting recently? (Okay, multiple people. But he's among them, and one of the worst.)

I wall post in response to other walls. I can't help it. I have to respond to things. I don't post nearly often enough so those things accumulate and my next post is a wall.

Also, is this supposed to be a scum tell?

No, it doesn't.

Tone. Exact wording. As town, he would have asked me to clarify. "This isn't making sense--could you re-word it?" or something like that. Instead, he simply flat-out says, "it doesn't". Essentially, flat-out saying, "you're wrong". Not in a town tone, at all. (Town Tone in this case would be saying "Mastin, to be blunt, you're wrong", or something like that. More to the point. Instead, Ald took the subtle approach to say the same thing, AKA, the scum way of discretely discrediting me.)

I said it that way because that seems like the sort of dry humor, vaguely funny way of responding to what you said. It's amusing because of it's blunt response to something that doesn't usually get that kind of response (how often is "if that makes sense" replied to with "no, it doesn't"?).

Secret's issue with Ald here is also quite valid. (Another reason why Secret likely died...)

I was the 3rd/4th (depending on the head) towniest player to SP. Don't pull bullshit NK speculation on me.

wierdalexv 2 TheWayItEnds,

Secret Project

,
Captain Corporal 2 Alduskkel, Elsa Von Spielburg
jilynne1991 1 Captain Corporal
Secret Project 1 Ironhead
Ironhead 2 WormyKrew, Monk
WormyKrew 3 (L-4) splitfarvie, Darth Yoshi,

Mastin2

Not Voting: jilynne1991, Wiredalexv

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

Once more, that's L+1 on the (2) wagons. So once more, there's two scum in there. One of them is WormyKrew, obviously. The other is Ald. (Side-note: with only two (1) wagons, this makes it doubtful that the people there are scum--meaning Captain's far more likely to be town. In other words, that the last scum is likely on WormyKrew at this point.

I don't even know where you're getting this weird VC analysis from. How about you examine the reasons people were doing what they were doing at the time instead of just looking at some broad outline and making poor presumptions from it?

With regards to the second, I was merely preempting any OMGUS accusations.

I can't find the words to describe just how wrong this statement is. Trying to get rid of OMGUS accusations? When that also implies a (weak) Mastin suspicion never followed up on? When only scum would be worried about being called out on OMGUS'ing in this manner? I dunno, it's. just. so. wrong.

Probably unnecessary, but I figured I'd clear it out of the way without having to possibly waste time on it in the future.

Then why waste the time on it at all, in the present? (Well, past. But then-present.) Wasted time then is the same as wasted time later, with one difference: scum wasting the time earlier reads as overdefensiveness.

I waste less time by clearing it our earlier with one sentence, rather than having someone tunnel on me for it or something and then having long back-and-forths ensue. Like right now!

(Note to myself: Still waiting for answers to questions in my previous post from DarthYoshi and WormyKrew.)

This is either pointless, or says weak suspicion on both players. Take your pick; either's bad, but it has to be one of them.

It's not pointless. What if I forgot and those questions were never answered? Whenever I make a post I respond to everything between it and my previous post. And if something needs to be kept alive, I need to remember that.

And it's definitely not weak suspicion. That doesn't make sense.

Why is this important? Particularly in the case of the latter,

WormyKrew wagon is BS with basically no decent reasoning from anyone except DarthYoshi. I'd say that everyone but DY has to explain their reasoning in their next post.

This would be blatant hypocrisy. Additionally, it is about as blatant as a WormyKrew defense can get.

*BANGS HEAD ON DESK*

For God's sake, I've said about a million times that the wagon at the time was basically devoid of reasoning. If you address nothing else in this post, address this. Because with the information I was given at the time I feel I made the right call. It's not some damning connection to WK.

By the way, I may be in the minority here but I vastly prefer wall-poster-Mastin to doesn't-explain-his-reads-Mastin.

TBH this game feels a little dead ATM. Need more posters other than Ironhead, Mastin, Secret Project, and jilynne. splitfarvle is especially missing, and our mod really needs to prod him if that hasn't already been done. It's been over four days now, more than a little ridiculous.

This is all pointless statements. Except for the last two sentences. Those are important. Take a wild guess as to why. (Hint: it's related to who replaced Split and who my Top Two Scumreads are. )

Oooh, it couldn't be that I am a town player concerned about the activity of the game. Couldn't possibly be that.

This post also reeks of BS.

It's also the classic scum excuse. "I'm having trouble because *insertnamehere* is posting too much." is one of the oldest Scum Tricks in the book.

Nonononononononono.

It wasn't that SP was posting too much. It's that a bunch of other people were posting too little. SP was there for comparison. You've severely misread the post.

This was also a scum post. Pointless, not scumhunting, degrading my play, trying to weaken my read, casting weak suspicion towards me...I lack the proper words for the exact reason, but those can give you a general idea of just how much scum is in Ald's posting.

How was the post pointless? It's not. Pointless would be if I started posting bunny rabbits and nothing else. Not scumhunting? Fair enough. But other posts of mine do that instead. Degrading your play? Yes. And your play was worth degrading back then. No explanations whatsoever. Trying to weaken your read? WTF else would I do if you think I'm scummy? Strengthen it? What?

Oh, and I definitely was not casting suspicion on you. I was saying you were wrong. But wrong =/= scummy.

Pointless fluff which gives the illusion of being constructive.

Actually it's quick and relevant questioning of CC.

Also not constructive.

First two are good questionings. Third one is no worse than any old EBWOP.

(In other words, IF Soben were town, they'd be willing to lynch Ald as well.)

Does no one see how ridiculous this is?

I never said I suspected anyone on the wagon. I just said it was BS. I've said it before, I'll say it again: wrong =/= scummy.

He had...no suspects...on a wagon that went to L-2...why? That kinda reminds me of a post in the "scumslip" thread buried somewhere in MD. Don't remember which it reminds me of off the top of my head, but needless to say, this is EXACTLY the attitude I'd expect from scum.

This continues when he later responds. Seriously, calling so many people on a single wagon, to be town? That means that 1:you're not leaving much room for scum off the wagon, and 2: means the wagon is far more likely to be on scum, which Ald's views did not reflect. 5/7 needed for a lynch-->Ald didn't suspect any of them-->Ald called all five of them essentially "not suspects"-->Ald said the wagon got that far without scum help-->Ald implies that therefore, the wagon is more likely to be on scum-->Ald doesn't follow through-->Ald is scum because of this, among many other reasons.

Makes sense to me.

ARGH! SO! WRONG! THIS IS MADNESS! (expecting obligatory response... bonus points if someone hammers me while saying it... hopefully won't happen though)

OK. Logic time. Just because I said "I never said I suspected anyone on the wagon" doesn't mean that I don't suspect people on the wagon. And it really doesn't mean I'm calling those people town. What it does mean is that DY was putting words in my mouth and I was pointing that out.

I was promised an explanation of reads from Mastin. RAGE. Okay, not really, but that definitely warrants a virtual smack upside the head. Mastin it has been forever since you said you'd explain yourself, and I was willing to wait until the end of this weekend (like you wanted us to), but now it's just preposterous.

Next post. Explanation of reads. Or a damned good explanation on why you haven't posted them yet.

1: This is fluff. There is no content in this post. 2: This is parroting. These exact words had been spoken by multiple previous players. 3: Tone. This has that very distinct scum tone.

It had to be said because you weren't fulfilling your deadlines. Yes, other people had said it before. I was joining them to nag you into being pro-town.

Also, you don't explain 3 at all.

Turns out all I needed to get the old Mafia fire in me burning again was to reread this game and start making a wall.

This very well might've been a scumslip.

Mafia is the name of the fucking game.

Can't you see how much you're tunneling Mastin? You're grasping at the most imaginary of straws sometimes.

Though that's almost to be expected, since I think Mastin gets a lot of his wall-mode playstyle from me.

This is also slight hypocrisy with Ald's past self. If you want proof, look at my Main's Wiki, "Mastin". Paraphrased, a line in there says, "Ha, trying to pin the blame on the players of 688? No, Mastin, pretty sure you developed that by yourself."

Also not scummy.

I obviously have changed my mind. I posted that comment ages ago.

4: Sharp, lucid responses. He pressed Secret Project to answer an old question.

Scum reviving a dead, pointless topic which quite frankly wasn't that important.

He accurately called BS on WormyKrew's assertion that AtE and scum-hunting were mutually exclusive.

1: bussing, 2: that statement was still scummy.

He probed you on your announcement that you were reaction-fishing.

There is no town motivation to question someone who talks about Reaction Fishing. Seriously, I had a game which had a lengthy 5-or-so-page discussion about the subject. All participants were town, chasing the Red Herring.

He questioned mastin2 on an incoherent summation.

1: nothing new. Others had done that before. 2: I'm an easy target. Ald of all people knows this. 3: Context in here is also key, in that he used it to back up his dead read.

He pointed out a hole in Secret Project's logic.

A: trying to discredit town, B: which in the process would weaken their WormyKrew suspicion.

7: Continues to probe mastin2 and Secret Project. Dismisses a very weak suggestion from mastin2 with decent logic.

Refer to previous points, about revivial, discrediting, and easy targets.

13: Continues to probe several players with questions -- including you. His interaction with Soben seems genuine to me.

1: the probing was almost entirely worthless. 2: Probing in this case is null at BEST. 3: In this case, however, it gives a scum-lean, in that Ald was leaving open his options in this case--leaving open a chance to jump onto whoever, for pretty much whatever he wanted. 4: His interaction with Soben is one of the largest giveaways of the scumteam being WormyKrew-Ald-Soben.

Sometimes, you really do get a better case out of picking apart someone's defense of a player than you do by quoting an offense. (I probably never woulda thought of well over half of those points if not for Iron's defense.)

If you read the top of Ald's wall, it REEKS of bussing WormyKrew. (...But not following through.)

In it, Ald also pushes both WormyKrew and Secret. (Despite it being pretty common sense that the two of them were pretty much mutually exclusive alignments.)

I'll let Ironhead get this one, since it was his post.

But:

2: I'm an easy target. Ald of all people knows this.

No. You're not. Not at all. You ram at people Mastin. This I know from how much I've typed just in response to you. You don't get pushed over. You keep posting. And posting. And posting. And they're almost always walls.

That whole post? Casts suspicion on well over half the playerlist. I counted. There's at least eight suspicions in there. WormyKrew, Secret, TWIE, Gerhard (his stale vote), Monk, Alex, Jily, myself.

Maybe not all of them were meant as suspects--but even if they weren't meant as suspects, that therefore means that Ald was trying to discredit them, which is even worse. (I can easily explain why.)

That post was all over the place. It wasn't organized. It was just reread and post my thoughts. It's disjointed, unfocused, and don't really explain my reads too well. Town players drop scum tells too, and I posted those just in case they weren't town.

I wasn't trying to discredit them. A player drops a scum tell or two and I note it and I'm trying to discredit them? Certainly not.

@Ironhead: Scum wouldn't let jily's vig go through no matter what her target's alignment was if they had anything to say about it. If her target was scum, then obviously they will stop it. If her target is town, they will stop it so that the Town is forced to use a lynch instead of a night kill on the player that was going to be vigged.

Quite frankly, this seems like inside knowledge. Not so much the statement "jily would be blocked regardless of her alignment"--that's pretty null. The REASONS Ald gives, on the other hand, SCREAM of, "this is WHY we blocked her".

Hey, I just thought it through. I give good insight and somehow that's inside knowledge?

Ald says he's looking at Broken, Alex, and Soben. I correctly pointed out how that REEKS of bussing,

I meant look at in terms of "I need to iso these people."

It also seems like it has inside knowledge--looking at this post, it looks like Ald already KNOWS that Jily used her shot, but got blocked. Jily had not posted that, yet. (Why didn't I catch onto that before?!? It's a HUGE scumslip, now that I think about it.)

I wouldn't know if jily had used her shot or not unless I was a tracker, watcher, or jily.

I think that it is no big assumption to think that jily had used her shot. And if it hadn't gone through, then it's also no big assumption to think that a roleblocker is afoot.

While I am not on board for a jily policy lynch, I will lynch jily based on the fact that she is scummy. (See my wall.)

Policy lynching a player-->scum. Jily was, is, and shall always be obv-town in this game. Trying to justify her lynch-->scum move. Honestly. I never, EVER support Policy Lynches, for a dang-good reason. Policy Lynching is lynching someone based off of their general playstyle. This is not the same thing as scumhunting. It's no better (and in fact is far worse) than random lynching. Ald's support for her death makes him far more likely scum.

You talk a lot about policy lynches, but I am definitely not trying to policy lynch jily.

Also, jily is scummy. If she isn't then address what I've said against her.

I'd much prefer it if you actually did some scumhunting beyond gut and some weak scumtells thrown in on occasion.

Blatant scum-coaching-town. Additionally, this does not read as someone who thinks Jily is scummy. This reads as someone who knows Jily is town, and wants to see more from her. Refer to the above, for why his support of her lynch therefore makes him scum.

If jily is town then I wanted her to be more pro-town. If she was scum then I'd want her to talk more so that I could get more potential buddies from interactions.

Addressing jily harshly with the presumption that she is already scum wouldn't get me anywhere.

I picked things that were especially wrong. And that's why it is the weakest part of your argument, because it is particularly wrong.

Ald admits to strawmanning me.

It's not strawmanning if I quote you and respond to it. The more wrong a statement is the more it needs a response.

Yeah, the someone you think is scum right now. If I'm scum, then why did I post that? Are you saying you agree with someone you think is scum, then? Especially on a point about who's scum...

There is no way this line came from town. Using a point he made to try and make himself look far more town than he actually was for it.

Err, DY has done basically the same thing and you obviously think that lines like mine did come from town.

I mean, if you agree with me about who's scum it's a bit weird if you also think I'm scum.

Man, remember when you explained things Mastin? That was great. I remember those days. Good times.

I'd like to see more explaining and less unsubstantiated statements with excessive amounts of smilies.

1: Tone. This is the strongest scum tone in the post. 2: Blatantly false. That was not how I used to be; I've always sucked at explaining things. 3: He wants less of the excessive smileys, which he knows me for. 4: blatant hypocrisy.

1. Why 2. Explaining things badly is different from not explaining at all. The 2nd is what you were doing at the time. 3. I do? 4. How? I don't post excessive smileys and I DO explain myself.

Maybe DarthYoshi is trying to get you to vote for wierdalex because he wants wierdalex lynched because he believes him to be scum, which is the pro-town thing to do.

This is really dumb. I am pretty sure DarthYoshi is town.

1: Scum tone. 2: Trying to get Alex lynched. 3: Defending Yoshi. 4: Degrading my play. 5: Calling Yoshi Town. When it's pretty much common sense (for the multiple reasons I've outlined several times) that one of them has to be scum.

1. Why? 2. No. Not in this post. 3. So? 4. Shrug. Is this scummy? 5. What you think isn't common sense Mastin. Just because I know I'm town doesn't mean I know DY is scum. In fact I've never agreed with your DY read.

He also chooses to waste the town's greatest power. A pro-town player has only two tools for catching scum: their voice, and their vote. The latter is quite frankly more important to me than the former. (I believe that someone with a posting restriction of only being able to post votes can still do better scumhunting than pretty much everyone else in the thread. It's why that's my Dream-Post-Restriction--to have absolutely nothing but my Vote as a weapon against the scum. To prove this belief true.) I wrote two guides on why Pro-Town Players shouldn't waste their votes. ("Mastin's Guide To Playing Well" and "Mastin's Guide to VCA" both cover the subject of why there's pretty much no pro-town motivation to not vote.)

Firstly, this is just theory which Mastin is claiming to be true without a doubt. Second of all, I was holding my vote off so that I could do those isos and make a more informed, better vote.

Yoshi, you've finally got me thinking you're town. You've managed to convince me of that, and I see it all the time in your posts. Thanks for that.

So you thought DY was scum and saw scumminess all over the place in his posts... but now that you think I'm scum and he's town you can see the towniness in his posts.

It sounds like you

only

saw the towniness after you came to the conclusion that DY was town. Maybe you should try reading my posts with the idea that I'm town and see what comes up. You know, instead of thinking I'm scum and going from there.

Scum attitude. Dismissing me AND Yoshi, saying he'll not be paying attention to us until lylo, and scumslipping by revealing he knows we're both town.

??? I did no such thing. If we get to 3-man lylo -- which is what I was suggesting might happen -- then obviously one of you would be scum but having the other also be sure I'm scum would be disastrous. No scumslip there.

That said, I do have a strong town read on DY and a weak/medium town read on you, Mastin.

page 11
oh look it's CC. well he's town anyways.
Ald just defends himself. No town fruit

^Valid. Both in that CC is town, and Ald's defending himself is rather condemning.

My defense is rather condemning?

These are ALL valid points against Ald, too. Read it all; it's an excellent post from Twisted.

I believe I've address all these points before.

Scum tend not to believe one of their primary attackers is town.

ARE YOU BLIND?

I think I also addressed that DY post you quoted in 1332 as well.
---
Moving along:

Alduskkel - I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned this (at least up until page 7): in your first post of the game you open with a bunch of rule clarification questions to the moderator and then talk about how you are one of the more experienced players in the game. With your experience level wouldn't most of these questions be self evident? And, do you have a habit of nit picking the ruleset in your other games?

I do not usually nitpick rulesets. But I do think the wording was somewhat ambiguous and I

am

paranoid about things like that.

ROFL at TwistedSpoon and Mastin reading the same damn post and coming up with complete opposite interpretations.

That said, Mastin, you lob an awful lot of accusations in 1193. I hope you've got something to back up each and every one of those.

Appeal to ridicule, fluff, pointless scum post.

Who am I ridiculing? You or Twistedspoon? Both? I'm not making fun of anyone here. I just think the dichotomy is funny.

Oh, and you never did back up all those accusations. I guess you're planning to, but so far you haven't.

Jily suspicion is not town-motivated.

I have actually stated concisely why I believe jily is scummy. So, address that if you're going to call those suspicions scummy.
---
Then you quote a post at Soben and consider it evidence that I'm scum. Sure, if Soben flips scum by all means use that against me. But with him still alive it's useless to try to make connections at this point.

Since jilynne has claimed to be 1-shot that means that even if we nail a Mafia RB she still can't prove her role to us.

Scumslip. Major, MAJOR scumslip. Ald KNOWS there's a real RB. Note that he's calling Jily scum, and even if they nailed an RB, Jily couldn't prove herself. When the only evidence of an RB so far comes from Jily. And if an RB were found, it'd have to be her partner. It all gives MAJOR scum-points to Ald. (How did I miss this before?)

No. jily can be town if the Mafia have an RB. In fact that's basically the only way she can be town.

Of all the roles that would block jily's kill, Mafia RB makes the most sense. Mafia Jailkeeper and even Mafia Doctor are possible, but unlikely when you consider that a 1-shot vig makes it unlikely for there to be a regular vig and and so a protective Mafia role is mostly pointless. An SK is almost certainly not present.

wierdalex also covers this pretty well in 1356.

There's also

You don't know?

Scum tone.

Why?

This is quite possibly because he knew she was scum and wanted to get town points if ever she was killed. Or maybe because he knew she was faking it he perceived her as more scummy and continued to pursue her in that faux town mindset.

Or, Occam's Razor, WormyKrew was scum pushing a mislynch EXACTLY the same way Ald has been.

You know, Occam's Razor applies when one possibility requires less assumptions/the assumptions are fairly like to be true. So explain how it applies here.

They're one of the more rare roles, I think.

Quite false; limited-shot vigilantes seem to appear in pretty much every-other game I play in. (Every-third at WORST.)

What games do you play? Lots of normals? If so, what makes you think that you haven't just encountered a large number of 1-shot vigs or something?

Link me to all the normals that you've seen that have 1-shot vigs. If it's so damn common it'll be easy.

The post also contains a ton of Soben interactions, and they're quite condemning.

I'd like to know what's so condemning. Also, my point earlier about Soben being still alive continues to apply.

The bandwagoning and switch from TWIE to me was kind of shameless. But I'm probably OMGUSing at least somewhat.

Not a town way of going about suspicion. He tries to take the best of both sides, leaves open his options, he tries to defend his actions, he tries to justify his weak stance, he doesn't go into specific names, calling out a vague suspicion not followed through on...you get the idea. Pure scum post, with pure scum Motive.

(Context: talking about DY) I mitigate a suspicion because I have an overall town read on DY so I tried to find another explanation for the scum tell. I offer it.

Did you really think I was ever planning on possibly voting DY? There's no good reason for me to leave my options here, it's just my genuine thought process.
---
1358: Lots and lots of unexplained tells/reads.

It will be so freaking lolzy if Ald flips scum, just for the simple fact that mastin will probably STILL push on us tomorrow. R's rage will be so funny to watch.

Well, of course he will if I flip scum. Not sure what you're getting at here.

Okay, everyone. I'm finished reading but I got deathly sick yesterday and am pretty exhausted (I have a ton of notes that say "look back to prior context, voting, motivation, check such and such, etc." that I was unable to keep track of while congested; and I doubt I'll get my full commentary up before deadline but I'll try my best. I think both leading wagons taste like scum.

VOTE: Alduskkel

I'm actually slightly more confident that CC is scum but I don't have the time/energy to advocate for it. And this is good, too.

xvart, switch to CC. It's obvious you prefer that lynch over mine, and you can help make it happen. My vote switch to him makes his lynch more plausible.

Now I'm working on another wall about why CC is scum and should be lynched instead of me.

[Alduskkel]

Open 236
^Most recent scum game.

Though my fairly infrequent posting is actually a symptom of decreased interest in Mafia, rather than alignment. All of the games I've replaced out of happened not too long ago. The walls are partly due to Mastin's presence and me trying to put more effort into this game and doing so in bursts rather than steady posts.

[Alduskkel]

[url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53&t=15144]Mini 1042[/ur]

More recent but I replaced out and also I was an SK. So I don't know if by scum you meant any anti-town alignment or only Mafia.

[Alduskkel]

EBWOP:
Mini 1042

[Alduskkel]

Soben, would you prefer CC's lynch or my lynch?

[Alduskkel]

AAAAAAAAAAHHH!

WHY WHY WHY

Argh.

Yeah.

Jeez.

Freaking lord.

I'll let you all wait for the Mod to reveal my role.

See you post-game...

[Alduskkel]

104 was another instance of me exploiting common typos--in this case, Patients.

Argh I noticed that but all that happened was that the grammar nazi in me went crazy for a bit.

As always I am completely unable to power role hunt.
---
I am very disappointed in my play this game. Although, it goes to show, lurking is not at all a playstyle that suits me. It works out much better for me (at least as scum) if I set myself up as an active town leader. Essentially I should have been posting the content that appeared in the walls all game (just not in walls). But lethargy is killing me right now WRT Mafia...

That said a good deal of Mastin's case on me was BS. I wasn't making crap up with my defense. FYI Mastin you really need to explain your reads. On the other hand, it did piss me off in a "scum caught for the wrong reasons" way which may or may not have led me to drop more scum tells.

Now, having said

that

, I'll be a bit hypocritical and pose this question to Mastin: If you were me, what would you have done differently?
---
Interestingly, this is the one game that highlights the fact that I don't really bus. Hasn't been a problem up until now, but that's probably one of the main things I'll take away from this game.
---
I claimed VT in hopes that someone would say, "Scum wouldn't claim VT in this situation!" Never happened. Argh. Not that claiming any of the obvious power roles would have done me any good. It only would have worked if xvart had been the RB instead.
---
Well, GG all. And thanks to Substrike22 for modding.

[Alduskkel]

I'm guessing that if I ever actually do that stuff to you now, though, you'll call me scum for it?