Mini 1180: Game Over

[mastin2]

2. Flinter has requested replacement and I will begin searching for one as soon as I wake up tomorrow.

Player List:
1. wierdalexv
2. splitfarvie
3. Elsa von Spielburg
4. Gerhard Krause
5. jilynne1991
6. TheWayItEnds
7. DarthYoshi
8. monk
9. Secret Project
10. Ironhead
11. Alduskkel
12. flinter
13. WormyKrew

Replacements:
1. mastin2

[mastin2]

Fair warning. I skimmed the thread before but was having trouble getting reads. Now, traditionally, that'd leave two options.

1: Lurk lethargically and basically contribute nothing. (Anti-town.) I'll pass.
2: Spam the thread with constant walls to hopefully lock onto a solid read. (Pretty much the ONLY thing MORE anti-town. ) No, thank you; I prefer not to demonstrate the title Unabridged whenever at all possible.

I recently discovered there was a Third Option. Something our hydras might've noticed: when dumping my thoughts into the Calcifer QT (Nacho+Me Hydra), I was far more concise in-thread. So, re-reading the game right now and opening a QT. (Effectively, I hydra with myself! )

Also, fair warning: I've been in far too many larges. My Mini play is also rusty.

Now that that's out of the way, off to work. (Being, creating the QT to dump my thoughts into. TRUST me. You don't want me doing it in-thread. Ask Ald. )

[mastin2]

First off, from memory, jily's newb-town, but still town. I got a town feeling from Gerhard Krause.
Everyone else has gone both ways (town to scum, scum to town, and/or no read at all), so that's why I need to read.

My experience with this playerlist: I know the evil half of Secret Project, and have a game with Alduskkel as well. (He also replaced me in my first game, 688.) I was in Yoshi's first (was it first?) game, as the IC replacement. Flinter was another I knew.

Other good things to know: Pacific timezone. I tend to be one of the more active names in a game, but it depends on my mood, day, and workload. (Both onsite and off.) I have 34 completed full games under my belt (plus three as an alt), as well as multiple ongoing and three marathon games. Not to mention extensive EpicMafia experience back when the name was still accurate (it's not, anymore :/), a little experience on my home forum where I got this name, and a bunch of games on another site, mainly Werewolf-based. I specialize in theory (lots of MD work from me), but don't expect me to be a Saintly Scumhunter; I have trouble making it work in practice.

Now to work.

[mastin2]

First off. VCA is kinda my thing, but it's hard to do right now working from so little. But Alex is concerning.

DarthYoshi 3 (L-4)

Wiredalexv

, Alduskkel, Monk

jilynne1991 3 (L-4) TheWayItEnds,

Wiredalexv

, WormyKrew

(On someone who's to my understanding practically confirmed town, no less.)

Not Voting: jilynne1991, flinter,

Wiredalexv

(Say what you will about Not Voting counting as a wagon, but I consider it at that stage in the game to be a willing choice--which makes it to me a wagon.)

I'll be looking more into this.

(Though I need to make sure I don't tunnel on alex. It's...been known to happen. To, uh...say the least. )

[mastin2]

Note to self: Review my first game with Yoshi.
Since it's apparently the only one where he was town and I read him as such.

(Hint, hint.)

Still readin', though.

[mastin2]

Do you prefer to play as town, scum, third party, or no preference? If "third party" please specify what kind of third party.

Town. Third Party for me was disastrous. Lyncher (in a NORMAL Large), outed by a JOAT's rolecop Day One.

Scum, not my favorite. Since I had a 0% winrate under the name Mastin. (As mastin2, I won one game as scum, but I didn't earn it. And I've won as scum under an alt, and as a hydra. But my main was retired before I had a scum victory.) And the victories I DID have were by my buddies' work, not my own.

Also, pretty sure I'm tunneling, since both my suspects are Yoshi and Alex. [i[Help me![/i]

[mastin2]

BBC fail. >_<

[mastin2]

At Page Four. My reads so far.

1. wierdalexv <--Scum?
3. Elsa von Spielburg <--Weak-town.
4. Gerhard Krause <--Town.
5. jilynne1991 <--Town.
7. DarthYoshi <--Scum.
8. monk <--Town.
9. Secret Project <--Town.
10. Ironhead <--Town.
11. Alduskkel <--Flip-flops.
13. WormyKrew <--Flip-flips.

Rest null. Sorry they're a bit weak right now. I'll see if by my next post, my reads are stronger.

[mastin2]

D'Oh. Can't seem to stop myself from making typos... >_<

On Page Five.

[mastin2]

Finished Five. I have some interesting analysis, but I'm going to catch up before confirming. Needless to say, I think I'm onto the scumteam.

[mastin2]

Finished Five. I have some interesting analysis, but I'm going to catch up before confirming. Needless to say, I think I'm onto the scumteam.

Can't waaaaaait

I'll need to Dissect what I find first.

[mastin2]

Up to eight. My reads are growing stronger.

[mastin2]

That read was not as much of a Monster as I had anticipated.

First off--Iron's town. Literal-minded, extremely technical town, but town nonetheless. That's pretty dang obvious. His wagon needs to die. There are two or three votes for him on page nine, in addition to any on him before then.

Second off--scum. I've got it down to a small section of the playerlist. Next post.

[mastin2]

(So, yeah, that means I've finished.)

[mastin2]

1. wierdalexv
7. DarthYoshi
11. Alduskkel
13. WormyKrew

The scum are in those names. I'm going to Protect anyone not in here from being lynched, and do so heavily. (Like Jily or Iron.) Now, I'm still dumping reasons for these reads into my QT, so it'd be best not to post them, yet. Need to organize 'em. But I'm quite positive these four contains our scum. Weakest to strongest, it'd probably be Alex, Ald, WormyKrew, Yoshi.

[mastin2]

So.

Vote: DarthYoshi

.

(Though admittedly, I could be tunneling. Will need to review.)

[mastin2]

And I don't think I can currently support my weakest scumread as a vote, either. How about we compromise?

Unvote, vote: WormyKrew

.

[mastin2]

If you don't mind, I'd like three questions answered please:
1. Why is Iron town all of a sudden?
2. Why is Yoshi scum?
3. Why are we scum?
Thought of something else too. You said Gerhard is town. How in the hell...?
~Krew

1: Iron's town because a lot of what people are attacking him for is wrong. I lack the words to describe how the attacks are wrong at the moment, but trust me. They're not correct reasons to suspect Iron.
2: Admittedly, risk of tunneling is high, but Yoshi's consistently done things pinging my scum radar.
3: Related, you two as a hydra have done quite the load of similar activities.

[mastin2]

Many. Nearly none of them gut, contrary to the strawman provided.

Merely, I'm trying to compile them in a logical way. Rather, a more normal definition of "logical way". Since they make perfect sense to ME.

Essentially, I'm trying to find ways to describe my scumtells in a way which sounds like normal logic, rather than "Mastin-Logic".

[mastin2]

Gerhard is a mislynch. Trust me on this.

Sure, Gerhard is scummy. But I know better than ANYONE else (*coughcoughpastvillageidiotcoughcough*) that there's a huge difference between scummy and scum. Gerhard is the former, not the latter. The scummy posts give off a town vibe when you double-check them. They look scummy, but look like they're coming from town.

If that makes sense.

I can elaborate, of course, but I would prefer not to. And would much rather you just trust me when I say Gerhard is not scum.

[mastin2]

Nah, this is just how I play. If you'll excuse me, I've got a sig to modify.

[mastin2]

Post coming in a second.

[mastin2]

I'll be honest: I've been forgetting to keep up with some things in my notes.

Mainly, that I've fallen way behind on certain things. However.

Spoiler: Practically Mutually Exclusive

Oh god, Newbie 748. What wallful nightmare.

Mastin needs to back up his reads. And not just because he called me scummy.

While it may be possible for me to work at it some more, if I were to currently explain it, these two goals would contradict. As in, to explain, I'd need to wall. Still working on a more brief explanation.

So do you consider alex scummy or not for this?

Mildly. This combined with certain other elements of his play make me suspicious of him, but he did a few things which I saw as potentially being town. Like a possible town-slip.

He's fourth on the scumlist, if you were paying attention. (Hence, the lack of my support on wagoning him.)

Since you people seem like you're heading for an Iron mislynch, I think I'll work on a case showing why he's town. It'll take less time to prove a single player is town than to prove multiple people are scum.

[mastin2]

First off.

I don't know why. But I've read a game (newbie, admittedly) which had Iron in it. Don't ask me for the number; I have no freakin' clue. But I recall quite clearly that Iron was reacting quite similarly here to there. And if memory serves, Iron was town.

"Meta? Worthless!"

No, not Meta. Personality. I'm sure I'd find he performed similarly as both alignments. "Null? So what makes him town?" In a minute. But I'm going to have to explain things in essentially three ways.

1: The "scummy" things in his play being part of his personality, being hard-wired into the way he THINKS, his very thought pattern. Trust me, I'm a weirdo myself, so I know this better than anyone else, that there are certain players who just take an alternate approach to scumhunting. (In Iron's case, an etremely--overly, in fact--logical approach.)

2: Explain things which aren't personality that seem scummy, and show the difference between "scummy" and "scum". (A difference I know very well.)

3: Point out the things which make Iron town.

This triple approach should deter his lynch.

[mastin2]

To all who Obviously missed it: Rereading a little.

Necessary for the Iron case. That being, he's town and shouldn't be lynched.

(Though one of the most blatant facts is this:
Who is Iron's buddy?
Iron was made scum due to interactions with jily, who is now confirmed-town. People kept calling him scum after that link was removed, however. To me, that read as stubbornly holding onto a dead read. Something I ALSO know better than anyone else. )

[mastin2]

Bad timing. Bad, bad, BAD timing.

I had a sudden wave of tiredness, right now. I'm becoming incoherent and am beginning to fall asleep. Sorry; looks like you'll have to wait 'til tomorrow. :/ (Working when I'm incoherent tends to not work well. )

[mastin2]

Gerhard Krause 2 Alduskkel, Elsa Von Spielburg
jilynne1991 1 Captain Corporal
TheWayItEnds 0
DarthYoshi 1 Alduskkel,

Oh, hey, Ald's confirmed town!
Why?

Well, 'cause, double-voters in a mini have to be town, since it's too strong of a scum ability! And he's listed as voting twice!

(*

coughcoughmodcoughcough

*)

[mastin2]

(Whoops. I was going to do something, but I forgot.)

[mastin2]

jily, go ahead and give your gut suspicion. I'll Defend ya from all the meanies who tease such things.

[mastin2]

It's okay, Jily. That suspicion is fine.

I, myself, personally concluded that I was finding it EXTREMELY hard to conclude both Hydras were town, and that one HAD to be scum due to certain interactions. (They're in my notes, somewhere.) So, yeah. You're fine. ^_^

[mastin2]

Krew. Hands-down.
(The question is, who's The Master, and Who is the apprentice? )

[mastin2]

WARNING: Krew is likely dangerously close--or potentially past--being lynched. I'll see if I can confirm via the votecount.

[mastin2]

WormyKrew 3 (L-4) splitfarvie, Darth Yoshi, Mastin2

Add Secret, and Jily. L-2.

I'm not opposed to Operation: Lynch Krew, but I'm not sold we should enact it at this very moment. It looks like we still have a lot to talk about.

[mastin2]

Call me a conspiracy theorist who has absolutely no logical reasons behind his posts if you like, for this.

But, uh...

...Am I the only one seeing an Alduskkel-WormyKrew scumteam, here?
Will need to look into this further.

[mastin2]

I'm having trouble explaining it in logical terms, but something about it just seems so right. Alduskkel-WormyKrew suddenly to me seems like it just makes so much *Beep*ing sense. I really don't know why, can't explain it in a way which I think will make sense to any others, right now. It's just there to me, right now, glaring at me and telling me I'm right. :/

[mastin2]

I need to look things over. Review things again.

When I'm more coherent. Dead-tired right now.

I feel like I'm on to something. I don't know how. I just have a feeling, that something's right with the direction I'm heading in. I'll see if I can think of it some more when I'm sleeping. (Since I apparently dream Mafia Games. )

[mastin2]

Apparently, this whole town needs to get some sleep. What, four, five people have said theyt're tired right now?

Let' sall have one giant, long napo together and resume the game i 8 ors, shall we?

[mastin2]

Mini 1180: Sleppless Mafia.

Mod you need to rename the game!

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Debatable.

I have no issue with them and have been shouting 'em out just as much as--if not MORE than--my scumreads. Some disagree. The disagreement mainly seems to stem from Newbie Games--I've never heard people give the reasoning outside of newbie games, other than "...I heard you weren't supposed to do it. (In a Newbie Game.)"

I think--not sure--that it stems from the belief that it makes scum's kill targets easier to select. With the typical roles in there (Doctor, cop, etc.), the results are predictable. Add to that the small game size, and giving the scum your townreads can be quite harmful.

So (I think) the theory goes.

While maybe applicable in Newbie Games--both due to their small size AND semi-open setup--I don't think it really holds up in larger games. I've also heard counter-arguments along the lines of, "Well, then, if we shouldn't give our town-reads, we also shouldn't give our scumreads, since--while admittedly a little bit harder--the scum can still figure out who NOT to kill from it and deduce good kill options! Yeah, right, like we'll stop giving scumreads." More or less. That's probably not the BEST way to word the counter-argument, but it's the first way I thought of. Additionally, I've personally found it quite pointless NOT to give the reads, since it really doesn't matter that much.

'Course, I'm far from an expert on these matters. It's more of an MD subject.

[mastin2]

What is AtE? I'm sooo confused, but I think it might be something like OMGUS.

You have no idea...
(This is actually a remarkably accurate take on things.
OMGUS is overused.
WIFOM is overused.
AtE is overused.

So, Jily's not far from the truth.)

To answer, AtE is "Appeal to Emotion". I don't remember the exact fallacy, but essentially (this is from memory so might not be fully accurate--I personally don't believe in AtE so it's not a definition I care to memorize) it's arguing to others' emotions, to try and make them sympathize with you and get on your good side, effectively.

Someone else who actually believes in AtE might be better at explaining it.

[mastin2]

By the way, I may be in the minority here but I vastly prefer wall-poster-Mastin to doesn't-explain-his-reads-Mastin.

I haven't seen wall mastin... But doesn't explain his reads mastin is apparently seeing a mountain of things that I haven't noticed...

At this point I would love to see a wall on his top suspect, and maybe another on his vote getter.... if those are still two different people.

Eh, honestly, not sure at this point. Really need to review the situation.

[mastin2]

To answer. Officially, unchanged.
Yoshi #1 suspect, WormyKrew #2.

Unofficially (as in, truthfully), I have no freakin' clue and need to re-read things to see for sure.

[mastin2]

You make me a sad Moglin, evil.

[mastin2]

Yoshi, I am trying to explain them (my reads), taking a long time to do so. It's just taking me a bit longer than I normally prefer.
Jily: It's not something most people would know; not an MS thing. A moglin is essentially a small (knee-height) anthropomorphic bunny, and my avatar is one.

[mastin2]

I will not follow you unless you build a proper case

Of course you're not going to follow me; I'm voting YOU.
(Scumslip?)

Reasonings will come; it's just that I'm working on explaining them. I'm more of a McCoy rather than a Spock.

[mastin2]

And there goes another pro-town player. :/
Well, on the bright side. At least it's not a scum player being replaced. Scum players replacing in tend to do better than their replacee, a good 75% of the time. (And worse for another 10%, with the remaining 15% being "roughly the same".) So I hate it when they get replaced by someone like, say, Khan. *coughcoughnewbiesevenfourtwocoughcough*

[mastin2]

Looks like I'll need to update my General View of the game, right now. Fallen behind quite some bit. But my Hospitalities to our new replacement.

[mastin2]

jil: I might as well answer your question. I'm looking more at a krew/Yoshi scum team now.

...Is that because of me? :/

Still waiting on Mastin.

My apologies. Have been busy.

Spoiler: Scumhunter Stuff

On a side note, if this trend continues, just call Scumhunter a "Mastin Translator", okay? (His opinions seem to match mine, and he explains it in a far more concise and clear way than I can do naturally.)

EDIT: Eh, less so as of his 12-post. Monk read to me as town who looks like an easy mislynch (among others--there was more, but I can't remember off the top of my head), Elsa looked town for some reason which is likely similar to the Monk one. I'm also far from positive on Yoshi being town. (Though again, I do fear I'm tunneling on Yoshi.)
Rest of his reads, however, look god.

404 isn't quite the same as my reads, but, eh, close enough.

The most common fail that costs town games is that sometimes people are so quick to attribute classic scumtells "OMGUS, aTe, vote-hopping, being careful not to piss people off, etc." as necessarily indicative of the player who committed that action to be scum. Each player needs to be judged on whether their own playing style is sincere. There is no correct way to play and just as people in this game are different, their actions need to be judged differently. A town tell from one player maybe a scumtell from another player and vice-versa.

I like this guy. I like him a lot. Quoted not only for truth, but also for win.

@Mastin, why do you think DarthYoshi is scum, don't really agree with that assessment.

No longer convinced of it ('least, not to the extent it was before), and will need to re-read. If in the process of re-reading, I re-convince myself of it, I'll try to explain rationally why. (Since I, uh, use a...

special

brand of logic. )

@Scumhunter
Hi. I like you. I disagree with your point on "looking town".

This "looking town" point is all you disagree with, then*?

CONFIRM VOTE: WormyKrew

!

*I'll elaborate, but I'll see if anyone else can see this scumslip first.

[mastin2]

Scumhunter, do you think you see the slip? (You'd be one of the people most likely to...)

[mastin2]

(Whoops, thought I left notes, but apparently, forgot to. Should be remedied.)

Indeed I did.

[mastin2]

Actually, I meant something specifically in this post.

@Yoshi
We have establised that it was indeed not a rolefish. And we aren't attacking you back. You're still a pretty strong townread.
@Scumhunter
Hi. I like you. I disagree with your point on "looking town".
@SP
...
@jil
...
@SP again
You were the first to say we were scum? IIRC it was Yoshi or mastin was. I will reread.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: SP
For the general :terribadposting:
~Krew

A very sublte thing. Could narrow it down for you, but it shouldn't be needed. It's a bit of a Sacred scumtell which you should know in your Heart.

[mastin2]

Scumhunter got the line correct, but the emphasis wrong.

@Scumhunter
Hi.

I like you.

I disagree with your point on "looking town".

The bolded, combined with the last sentence is what does it. Like I said, I can explain it, but I'm really hoping someone else sees it and can describe it in a more clear, concise way than Mastin-The-Rambler would.

I still feel like monk and Alduskkel are doing a good job of sliding under peoples' radar. Monk's vote also feels stale-ish.

Ald, definitely. Monk, might consider, but still think he's town.

/Still needs to re-read.

[mastin2]

Scum Reads:
DarthYoshi

@Mod: While I generally approve of hydras, and am fine with them in a game's starting lineu letting a hydra replace in is kind of a stretch. Scumhunter should have gone solo in this p,game.

I'm sorry, but I really can't help but wonder if these two are related.

Also, Yoshi scumslipped. Similar to the WormyKrew one, albeit slightly different and admittedly weaker. Still catching up; will give more thoughts in a moment. (Been at my House workin' all day, sorry.)

[mastin2]

@Mastin: Are you implying that Krew's statement is buddying? Cause if so that's weak. Really weak.

Nope. Not buddying. I can say that in a clear, concise manner. (I might be a rambler, but I'm not THAT bad. )

Something else.

Also @Mastin: Stop pussyfooting around your reads and just give cases.

Been busy. It'll be better after tomorrow; I'll have tons of time. I just don't at this moment.

Caught up, but still busy.

Like I said, by Friday, plenty of time. Just not at this very moment.

[mastin2]

Saying "I like you." makes me scum o.o?

When combined with the following sentence, yes. Anatomy of posts is quite important. (Though admittedly, reading it can be a bit of a Grey area. )

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Rambling

disagree with buddying being a strong scum-tell, if it were Mastin would be lynched in all of his games purely due to the amount of players he attempts to defend.

Actually...

...[REDACTED - Ongoing].

(Short version short: I'm not as immune to lynching as I generally prefer to be. )

I think my sig does help, though. I thought about changing the sig for a long time, when I realized it fit me so well. (Granted, I'm far from a perfect scumhunter, and mislynch people just as often as I lynch correctly. And on rare occasions [*coughcoughpinecoughcough*], I defend someone who ISN'T a mislynch. But simple fact is, I generally tend to stop a LOT of mislynches from going through that would happen otherwise. To the point where scum have killed me not because my reads were correct [they were kinda quite off ], but because I was shutting down their preferred mislynches.)

[mastin2]

I don't know if anyone else is, but I am personally disgusted with my play up to now.

My opinion is entirely based on your alignment. Total agreement if town, but if you're scum, keep on going exactly as you have been.

(Content will be coming, Friday. It'll take time for me to try and explain things, but I'll make it work.)

[mastin2]

...Speaking of which, I really need to start taking more notes; it looks like I've neglected to do so, again.

[mastin2]

Now, something which will likely need clarifying:
I likely won't be done on Friday.
Probably not, in fact. This'll take too much time to explain.
/
Though that doesn't mean I won't be giving content. While to explain all of my reads will take too much time to finish on Friday itself, I CAN post the scumslips I saw.
Understanding my reasoning will be hard, but I think I can pull it off.
Considering how rusty I am for this game size, I'm already pleased.
Krew vote likely won't be moving, though.

[mastin2]

Lol.

No, seriously.

Just...lol.

I don't know what in that post makes me laugh, but it's just extremely lolworthy. Let out a nice good laugh.

[mastin2]

First off--apologies for my last post. It was made at 2 AM and I was highly incoherent. (Had I been coherent, though, I might have done worse. Imagine if I MASHED my head on my keyboard. )

Still, though, point remains. There is literally nothing town in that post by WormyKrew. In my highly incoherent state, I expressed this with literal laughter at just how horrible of a post it was.

The post bleeds off scumminess, and I was laughing because of it. Don't believe me? Well, I'll explain in my case. Which I'll begin working on today. Won't finish today (I warned you of this before), but I will work on it.

In the mean time, my priority is focusing on the scumslips of WormyKrew and DarthYoshi. Same basic slip, though Yoshi's is far less severe and is extremely weak in comparison.

I will be on vacation from the 12th to the 19th with limited to no internet access. If you need/want me to replace out, I will, but I would like to stay in this game if at all possible. What say ye?

Honestly? If you were someone like me who pretty much posts every day and tries to give content constantly in said posts, I wouldn't mind that much.

...But so far, you haven't demonstrated that. So far, you've demonstrated only an occasional post, barely prododging, and the content in the posts isn't very much.

Presumably, this is due to being busy in RL. It happens; I know it more than anyone else, right now. But if you're going to be busy for an even LONGER period of time, where you won't be able to contribute much if anything at all?

My take would be that it'd be better to replace out. I know, asking sucks, and I never want to be in the situation where I have to ask to be replaced again, but sometimes, it's for the better of the game.

Just my take on things.

[mastin2]

While I have admittedly gotten...'distracted' (If you must know? I fell victim to TVTropes. Okay?!? It happens! I didn't realize how long I was on there; I thought it was, like, ten minutes! Six hours later...), trust me, I'm working on the game. While it's TECHNICALLY Saturday, it's still Friday in SPIRIT. (It doesn't become Saturday until I go to sleep. )

Spoiler: No, I don't Sleep =P

Still trying to explain things in a logical yet concise way. Since quite frankly, I have effectively three modes.
1: Current mode, "Explain Nothing". Less than desirable.
2: Insane Mode, "explains concepts briefly but in a way that makes no sense". Insane Troll Logic, effectively. I tend to prefer not saying this in-thread, since it RUINS my credibility, despite how it is (mostly) more concise than...
3: Wall Mode. Explain the concept in as much detail as possible to prevent confusion, in a highly ramblish nature.

The fourth option is "explain things in a clear, concise, logical manner, after having done all of the above in the QT", and I'm working on it. I swear, not going to bed until I have the slip in this method, but right now, it's not. Right now, it's somewhere between #2 and #3. (With it obviously being #1 in here--I've shown you where it is, but not WHAT it is.)

Surprisingly, despite it being 3:23 AM, I'm quite coherent. I will use this to my full advantage. In this bridge between coherence and incoherence, I frequently work my best, since I have enough alertness to remain logical, while being crazy enough to tap into the type of "logic" I normally employ.

In other words, right now, I'm in the zone where I'll get the most work done.

[mastin2]

(Though, admittedly, this is also a huge danger zone, since it doesn't take much to cross into the incoherence zone and blow the whole Operation apart. Falling asleep On the Table isn't exactly my idea of fun. :/
Ah, well. Heroic Willpower. I exploit it quite frequently. )

[mastin2]

To give you an idea, what I'm saying still makes sense. (Presumably. ) However, the way things are worded is slightly awkward, and when I think of the post five minutes later, I think of a far better way to say what I had just said.

Like I said: fully coherent, but slightly nonsensical at the same time. I thrive in this condition. (When I have that HWP, of course.)

[mastin2]

First off--While I can SEE the Elsa wagon, I cannot support it.
Second off--One of the main frustrating things about this tell is that it's something I could've

sworn

others would pick up on, perhaps instinctively. The fact that nobody else seems to is incredibly frustrating. I shouldn't have to be (and don't particularly like the idea of being) a Scrub.
And third off--I've been doing rapid-fire QT posting, compiling eight or so in only a few minutes. Sorting through them, however, sifting through the constant amount of data to give the best presentation, is a bit harder. Still workin', still working...

[mastin2]

To clarify on Elsa: Certain things from Elsa I can definitely see being scum motivated.

CERTAIN things, being the key words.

Overall, Elsa seems to be town to me. While I can see the perspective of her being scum--it's not that hard to understand, and logically, it's a fairly decent case--my initial read on her was town, a read I'm going to stick by. It goes beyond gut. There's a lot logically pointing to her being town, too.

If that makes sense.

[mastin2]

Ah, screw this. I'm going to keep on talking about it later, but need sleep. But for now, I'm going to dump on you my compiled notes and the prototype of the reasons.

This is not the ideal argument. It's not quite conveying what I mean it to. It's close, but I feel like I need to post it first and work from there. I wouldn't be surprised if I had no other Listeners.

Spoiler: Raw Notes

WormyKrew just did a huge scumslip. Scumhunter had been calling WormyKrew scum, and did a whole list of reads. Rather than comment on them at all, he commented on a small, insignificant detail.

Additionally, he disagreed with that one thing, but doesn't apparently disagree with Scumhunter's other reads, despite being scum. This is not as insane as you think, when you realized WormyKrew said, "I like you". That implies there's something to like in his posts, which implies a certain level of agreement (see my post for an example of this). And while he takes the time to say he disagrees specifically with ONE thing, he fails to disagree with the far more IMPORTANT thing on Scumhunter's views.

This "looking town" point is all you disagree with, then*? CONFIRM VOTE: WormyKrew!

*I'll elaborate, but I'll see if anyone else can see this scumslip first.

Scumhunter, do you think you see the slip? (You'd be one of the people most likely to...)
^He was among the most likely, simply because he called them scum, and they didn't disagree.

Scumhunter got the line correct, but the emphasis wrong.


WormyKrew wrote:@Scumhunter
Hi. I like you. I disagree with your point on "looking town".
The bolded, combined with the last sentence is what does it. Like I said, I can explain it, but I'm really hoping someone else sees it and can describe it in a more clear, concise way than Mastin-The-Rambler would.

As far as Regfan's initial reads go, I agree with some but not all of them. Notably, he relies on meta to excuse the behaviors of WormyKrew, and to prosecute the cases for Elsa and Alex, but in MY case, he excuses the meta away instead. Can't have it both ways, mate.

As for my drop in activity and quality of presence, if you go through my games played list, you'll see that coincided with me being in LyLo in two other games, and so this game definitely got pushed to the back burner for a little while. Now those other games are over, and though I have some RL events coming up, I should be more dedicated to this game because it is the only one I'm playing in right now.

^The same basic "I like you" tell, weaker since he does address him, just not as much as I'd expect town to do.

"Also, Yoshi scumslipped. Similar to the WormyKrew one, albeit slightly different and admittedly weaker."
^Essentially. But I need to explain this better.

Nope. Not buddying. I can say that in a clear, concise manner. (I might be a rambler, but I'm not THAT bad. )

Something else.

^This, along with...


Saying "I like you." makes me scum o.o?
When combined with the following sentence, yes. Anatomy of posts is quite important.
^That.



All in one post for easy reference.

Spoiler: UNFINISHED Prototype

Here's how things went:

-Scumhunter came into the game. Gave reads. Among them, was WormyKrew as scum.

-WormyKrew comments on Scumhunter. Chooses one insignificant detail to focus on, while simultaneously saying he likes Scumhunter, without addressing things.

Compare that to when

I

said "I like him", where I effectively agreed with pretty much everything he said. (To me, "I like you" implies a certain level of agreement.)

He, however, liked Scumhunter, with no explanation as to why, despite the fact that

Scumhunter had a Scum Read on them

.

Scumhunter said many things in the post. Yet WormyKrew chooses specifically the "looking town"--the weakest part of the post--to disagree with. Combined with the "I like you" implication (agreement implied), that means that WormyKrew agrees with the rest of the post.

Including the part about them being scum.

Scumhunter--having made the list in the first place--I felt was most likely to see this.

It's...hard.[/quote]And I do mean both "unfinished" and "prototype". This scumslip CAN be explained better. I just feel like I've hit a dead end and the only way I'll further things is if I post this in-thread, and revise it from there in the QT.

(I didn't want to do this, because the points as they are are 1: going to destroy my credibilty as people laugh at the absurd logic, and
2: Are extremely easy to strawman, far too easy for my preference.

But if it gets me to refine the scumslips to be more readable, I'm fine with the risk.)

[mastin2]

FFFFFFFFFFF--

Broken Spoiler Tag. >_<

[mastin2]

Working on it. Dang it, right now, I really should be working on my notes, but...well...

Writer's Block. >_<

(Hence the in-thread post, to try and defeat it. It...might be working? :/)

[mastin2]

Since it was asked of me...

Spoiler: Reads

1. wierdalexv <--Weak scum, fourth suspect. I see a lot which could make alex scum, yet I also see things (including a potential town-slip) which make him town.
2. splitfarvie Scumhunter <--Obv-town.
3. Elsa von Spielburg <--Weak town, but still town. This is a bit hard to explain, but kinda like Iron, I guess. If you want, I can make a case as to why she SHOULDN'T be lynched.
4. Gerhard Krause Captain Corporal <--Obv-town, due to their general playstyle. It is not that of scum. It has only pure town motivation in it; I see no scum play from them.
5. jilynne1991 <--Confirmed-town. She was obv-town before her claim, confirmed town after it.
6. TheWayItEnds <---Weak-town. TWIE's post seem to have town motivation, and it's tripping a lot of my positive tells. That said, it's not to the degree of others. It's a stronger town-read than Elsa, but still not that great.
7. DarthYoshi <--Scum? Kinda Process of Elimination, one of the main suspects.
8. monk <--Town. There's no way this slot is scum, with their play so far. They have had town motivation, and have tripped all my town-tells.
9. Secret Project <--Strong town-lean. They generally give off the aura, the essence, of being pro-town. There's a slight case against them, but it feels really weak.
10. Ironhead <--Mid-town-read. The main suspicion on Iron seems to be for playstyle-related suspicions, things which should be null. (Having been a frequent victim of this in the past, I know the feeling quite well, and it's blatantly obvious to me.) Iron's play looks a lot like it has town motivation. He's slightly literally-minded, making him a bit critical, but he's not scum.
11. Alduskkel <--Scum? Process of elimination, really.
13. WormyKrew <--Scum? Again, Process of Elimination, combined with a multitude of scumtells eminating from 'em. (Will explain in case.)

Essentially.

Spoiler: Scum

Alex-Ald-Yoshi-WormyKrew are scum candidates for multiple reasons.
1: Process of Elimination. This is the strongest. I have reasons for everyone else to strongly suspect they are town. I don't see that in these four. (Well...potentially Alex, hence why he's my weakest suspicion.)
2: General Interactions. The interactions from these four strongly connect themselves to one another. I'll attempt to explain in my case, but giving interactions is not my strongsuit.
3: Scumtells. Lots of personal scumtells come into play. Essentially, individual scumminess, rather than interactive scumminess.

...Like I said. All can be explained in the Case, but it'll take a long time to write. It's no easy task for me.
/Hasn't read the thread and will catch up soon.

[mastin2]

Having gotten to Page 24, I must say, I'm kinda ashamed:

Jily's did better scumhunting than pretty much anyone else.

Defending Elsa as town, and pushing WormyKrew as scum, mainly.

Spoiler: Poor Girl

She got pressured out of it and backed down when big meanie vets pushed her down. It's kinda sad. She's a newbie, who thought she was doing good. (And was!) But the vibe I get from her is that she feels like the scumhunting she just did was being scolded by the more experienced players, like it was worthless and that she was wrong, making her feel worse and backing down.

(That's something which regrettably happens more often than not with newbies. They try to scumhunt in their own way, and have a vet essentially go, "lolno." It then discourages them, since they feel kinda put down--perhaps rejected--and they frequently become submissive. Which is generally a bad thing. Submissive newbies become too easy for scum to manipulate. Submissive Newbies ALSO get ideas planted into their head which they never should have. Things like auto-no-lynching with no discussion at all in Mylo, which theoretically is the right move but in practice is the WORST possible play to do in those situations.)

Just the feeling I got.

[mastin2]

Theoretically.

Spoiler: But I know the mind of a newbie.

I've seen it happen many times before.

Newbie gives good, legitimate scumhunting. The reasons might be faulty, but the suspects are not. They're on the right track!

A veteran player comes in. "Lolno." Explains why they're wrong.

Newbie backs down. "...okay.

I think I'll just go and follow these guys... =(

" Newbie then proceeds to doubt themselves, not pursue their original suspects, and leaves themself more open to suggestion.

If you haven't seen this, you don't play enough Newbie Games. Or maybe you don't see it because you're the vet in said situation. (And don't realize you've effectively bullied someone who was trying to help and rejected their assistance, in a way.)

But I? I see it all the time. Newbie's "Logic" is shot down as terribad, newbie gets discouraged, newbie becomes submissive and backs down from their valid reads. Newbie becomes more open to suggestion, looking for guidance since apparently they're clueless and quite wrong, according to these more experienced players who should know what they're talking about.

You do realize I'm a guy who is considering writing an MD article called, "Newbies Are Geniuses", right?

I know the mind of a newbie, and can read between the lines. You see her having simply changed her reads after they were shown to be inaccurate. I see someone who--while they'll rarely admit it--just got quite depressed.

I see these things. The tone in people's posts. It's just what I do.

She just got discouraged. After putting in the time and effort to give a good strong attempt at scumhunting, she got shot down by a more experienced player. That's demoralizing to a newbie.

[mastin2]

I'm not going to discuss this in-thread due to the clutter any further after this. But needless to say, you just proved my point. (I'm not going to quote you to prove how [that'd elongate the clutter], but you did.)

Spoiler: My View

Essentially, Newbies need gentle guidance. Not forceful guidance. "Lolno" (which is the tone I got on page 24) is forceful. Gently explaining things is better. Showing the newbie what they're doing wrong, in a "this is wrong" tone is terrible. It's absolutely horrible to them, one of the worst things they can feel, producing a sinking feeling in their chest as they're told their effort was for nothing. Explaining what they can do better is calmly guiding them in the right direction, gently trying to show them the way, rather than forcing it on them. If you gently prod them, their confidence level grows, as does their playing ability. If you forcefully push them down, then their confidence is shattered and it can take multiple games before they're even close to as confident as they were.

Tone is something I quite frankly know better than most people. I know many people's tones in their posts better than THEY do. (For instance, I know for a fact that the tone in MY post is a "What the Heck, Hero?!?" tone. ) And I saw Jily, a confident newbie, give her reads. I saw them not gently pushed, but forcefully shoved. I then saw her be submissive because of that, unconfident, doubtful of herself due to this approach.

It quite frankly disgusts me. Worse, because the vets can't read Tone, most of them don't even REALIZE they're doing it. But it happens. All the time. And it's destructive. It wrecks a player for games. Damages them in a way which takes a long time to be repaired.

[mastin2]

Also, I've been forgetting to take notes, sorry. Mainly due to this distraction.

[mastin2]

...Hmm, which emoticon here is for disgust?
None of them quite seem to convey the level which I feel from your view. You have no Mercy. (I obviously do. )

Jily is a new player. From what I can tell, all her experience comes from on-site. Meaning that--while she is far from as naive as she pretends to be--she still IS a newbie. She's in multiple games, so picks things up faster than a normal newbie, but she still is one. I quote from the same Mafia QT you did.

Also, I'm genuinely that newbish, but I'm not genuinely that lost or confused.

She IS a newbie.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Bit Off-Topic Ramble

(If you couldn't tell, Teaching is one of the only things I pride myself on.
I know that my MD work is controversial, and while I thoroughly enjoy making it and do believe everything I say there and it's good enough to have gotten me nom'd for Professor Mafia...
...It's still debatable.
I know my scum play sucks, since I've never won a game as scum without my buddies.
I know I'm not a great scumhunter. I'm mediocre, going on good. I'm improving with every game.

...But teaching?
Teaching is the one thing which I have not been criticized for. Teaching is the one thing which I do well, the one thing which people widely acknowledge as being a strongsuit of mine.)

[mastin2]

Jily, I wouldn't worry about a roleblock. [REDACTED - Setup Speculation].

[mastin2]

I love vig votes.

Vig: Alex

. <--This is probably the best. I know, he's not my main suspect, but he's someone a great majority of the town doesn't believe to be pro-town. (And he IS a suspect. Just fourth.) In other words, he might not be scum (though it's possible he is--I just don't think so right now), but he is at risk of being lynched every day if he doesn't die.

[mastin2]

Mmm...interesting. Definitely seeing something, which the results of the lynch and vig will help clarify--obviously, can't elaborate beforehand.

[mastin2]

Busy because of [REDACTED], of course.

I gave the scumslips I saw, and have since been trying to work out an explanation of my reads.

And am still doing so.

Just have a few distractions here and there which're slowing me down. (Refer to [REDACTED]. )

[mastin2]

Though that's almost to be expected, since I think Mastin gets a lot of his wall-mode playstyle from me.

HA! SO YOU ADMIT IT!
(Whatever happened to you denying that 688 was an influence on me? )

This game should have a lot more of my attention, right now. I'm still going to Defend my reads, though.

[mastin2]

Bad Timing: V/LA

. Due to Broadstripe kinda messing up my internet. I yelled at 'em, so they should fix it, but 'til then...

[mastin2]

Alright. Got internet back. Reading the thread. (But you know the Drill: things won't likely change in my Mind.)

[mastin2]

First, why are you spoilering absolutely everything now?

I spoil anything I think to be too long. I often overestimate the length, ironically enough.

Second, you came into the game with me as your #1 scumread, but now the only reason I’m scum is PoE? WTF? Also, PoE is at its weakest on D1—it becomes far more useful as the game progresses.

This is a blatant strawman of my viewpoint. PoE was ONE of the reasons. Not the ONLY reason.

I'll work on an Elsa-->Town case, since you all seem so intent on letting her get massacred unnecessarily.

If the reasoning behind his initial push from Iron to WK is in there and satisfactory, I'll be less inclined to believe that he is.

Uh, not sure I understand this. If you mean, "pushing people off of Iron and onto WK", that's accurate, but if you mean me pushing Iron as scum and switching to WK, that didn't happen. The wording's a bit ambiguous.

Also.

We're Lurking Hunting.

Elsa.
Alex.
TWIE.

Know what that generally leads to?

Mislynches. Misvigs. A whole lot of nothing. (I know Lurking better than most people. Divided it into three types traditionally, and recently developed a fourth type. I tend to be good at picking up the difference between scum lurking and town lurking. Having lurked as scum and lurked as town, having seen lurking town and lurking scum, I picked up the subtle differences. And guess what? Elsa, TWIE, and maybe even Alex don't seem to be displaying said scum lurking. I'll obviously need to double-check this, review it some more, but I don't think my opinion on the matter will change--they're most likely mislynches.)

I must apologize for my lack of Wall with the promised reads--as mentioned, it was due to my internet failing ~24 hours ago and not getting fixed until very recently. This obviously left me cut off from working here.

/Caught Up. Will resume work, now that I have access again.

[mastin2]

Yoshi, I pointed out the scumslip already, and admitted it was weak. I have other reasons to think you're scum, and am working on explaining it. It's not something which I can say out of the blue,
"Yoshi is scum because of X, Y, and Z."

Believe me, I'd love to. But my mind doesn't work that way. Converting my thought process into more traditional terms like, "Yoshi is scum because of X, Y, and Z." Takes me hours to do, and I have been suffering setback after setback in Real Life hindering me further. I'm working on it. That's really all I can say. Communication is my weakest point. I cannot convey easily what I intend to. If it were that easy, I'd be magnitudes better of a scumhunter. (Refer to my sig--not my job to be convincing, my job to be right.) Knowing Is Half The Battle. Explaining being the other half, and the explaining half, I REALLY suck at.

The cases about Elsa and TWIE don't just revolve around lurking.

But that is one of the main central points. They were brought into attention for...their lurking. Other points were developed after that, but the simple fact is that they weren't under nearly as much pressure until their lurking was brought up. AKA, a lurker hunt.

You can throw contradictions and inconsistencies in there all you want. But the fact remains, those are being used as icing on the cake, for a Lurker Hunt. That's what I get when I read the thread. When I read the cases against them, I don't see "They're scum because of X, Y, and Z. Add to that, they're lurking."

I see, "Lurking. More Lurking. Oh, and X, I suppose. Not to mention, Lurking. And here's more Lurking. Oh, look at Y; that's more against them. Don't forget the Lurking."

That's what the Language Filters tell me when I read the cases against them. Lurking as the spearhead, the main point against them, with all other points meant to merely support the Lurking accusation.

[mastin2]

Where? I have gone through your ISO with a fine-toothed comb, and the closest I can find to this is your ISO #52, where you say I scumslipped in a manner similar to WK, but you didn't actually point it out, so there isn't a whole lot I can say about it.

It's there where I explain the WormyKrew slip. And like I said, yours was a far more mild case. I still saw it, but thought it was weak.

BTW, PoE + an admittedly weak scumslip is the basis for what you were claiming earlier was a #1 scumread?

This Strawman is getting old.
Fast.

It is NOT the basis for my scumread! It's one of the many reasons you're scum. I'm just having a LOT of trouble explaining this in traditional logical terms, rather than Mastin Logic.

Mastin, you replaced in 11 days ago, and if in 11 days you can't come up with a lucid explanation for why I'm scum, I'm pretty sure you're reaching.

It's lucid to ME. Just I know it wouldn't be to others. Needless to say, a lot of the things people are giving you town-credit for are things which ping MY scum radar.

So, yeah. Not reaching to me.

I'm trying to explain things in a way that won't be seen as reaching by others.

If that makes sense.


Put bluntly: I know I'm on to the correct scumteam, and that Elsa/Alex/TWIE won't end well. I might not be exactly right, but I'm definitely on the right path. I just have no persuasive skills, and know that historically (you can see evidence of it in-thread!), my reads are seen as less credible when I give my reasons, because to others, the reasons look like 1: nonsense, 2: BS, or 3: a combination thereof. Converting those reasons into something which WON'T be seen as Nonsense takes additional time.

Jily--I'll repeat. I doubt they have a roleblocker.

[mastin2]

For the record, I'm building the case. I still say that posting it will give me Trauma.

Glimpse into it: I'm building the case of Alex on both sides--as town, and as scum. The town one is MUCH stronger. The scum one feels like an incredible stretch, using quite weak logic, compared to the very natural town one.
Another glimpse: I've determined that Yoshi and Ald aren't scum together. Yoshi and TWIE aren't both scum, either. When I post the actual case, I'll of course elaborate.

Additionally. TWIE has a lot being built up pointing to TWIE being town.

Now I'm of course not finished. I've essentially got to juggle three things:

1: Town Cases. If you guys keep on lynching/vig voting people I don't think are scum, I have to do this.

2: Scum Cases. What people want most, but honestly, not my highest priority.

3: Vote Tally. No offense to our mod intended, but I'm a spoiled guy who has been getting votecounts pretty much every page in my past games. So, I need to personally compile all the votes. Fair warning, I'll likely be posting this first, a few hours (perhaps a day) before I post the cases and it'll be almost completely Information instead of Analysis. The reason being, that once it's posted, I'll use it as the finishing touch IN my Cases.

I know, people want me to post the cases, but quite frankly, they're not even close to finished and I feel like a status update is better than disappearing for two or three days. (How long this'll likely take me to finish. >_<) The glimpses are my attempt to give people a satisfaction, to let them know that I AM working on it.

[mastin2]

...Oops? I thought it had more reasoning in there.
(Also, wrong account, Bump.)

[mastin2]

Apparently, people weren't listening. I thought I made it clear that I was going to post it, despite the Mastin Logic, once done. (Though apparently not. I could have SWORN I said that. Could've SWORN I said that I said I wasn't going to try and convert it into more traditional logic. But can't find it in my ISO.) I simply flat-out haven't finished it. The wall is far from complete. I'm not exactly an Angel, you know. There's only so much I can do in the amount of time I've had.

Short version short, though--I've finished a project in Real Life, which was taking most of my time away, and have nothing in Real Life to interfere with my games anymore. When I finish the Wall, I'll post it. I'll hate myself, and I reserve the right to say, "I told you so" if you guys laugh/lose respectability for me due to the "logic" within. But it'll be posted. When I've finished building it.

[mastin2]

*sigh*

I warned you when I said I wasn't completed.

Let's call these "Part One". As in, "Cases, Part One; don't you DARE lynch/vig before you have Part Two". (Part Two hopefully including everything.)

Keep in mind--this is just the first four pages in WORDS, but in my MIND, I'm in the thirties. As in, there are a LOT of concepts here which stretch over the whole course of the game, but which I cannot express until later, and will be doing so.

Spoiler: TOWN CASE

VOTE: DarthYoshi Dinosaur sith are not a thing

This is a good-hearted, honest-natured, RVS-vote. There's no bad tone in it. It has that town tone, the tone of having fun as town.

In more traditional terms, there's also his having missed that the RVotes wouldn't count--his lack of careful reading is a towntell, since I've found that--traditionally--scum tend to scrutinize the ruleset, whereas town just essentially assume everything's pretty much the standard ruleset.

(It might not be to you the strongest town-tell, but it's still a town-tell.)
(Also, to make sure it's clear--I don't consider the inverse to be a scumtell. Just for the record.)

we're not in pregame jily, let's hear what you've got

This, combined with Monk's earlier statement that they WERE, is reason to believe that Monk is town who is legitimately inquiring into things.

just saying but Ironhead is right on his "RVS doesn't really create pressure" I have never felt pressure in any of my games so far from RVS. but then I haven't felt any pressure from rqs. Jily's playing more or less the same game she has been playing in all her games, I get a null read, nothing particularly out of the ordinary with her posts

This looked like an honest attempt to scumhunt. It admittedly was not a very good attempt, but it had the tone of a newb-town player.

4) Well, I'm assuming RQS is Random Question Stage. I prefer RQS, because I can get more information. I dislike RVS, because it's too easy to kill a person too early. Oh, and I've only played with RVS, but I dislike it.

This is the kind of assumption I'd only see with a town train of thought. Dislikes what she's seen in the past, and so assumes that the alternative (RQS) is better. I don't think Jily as scum would think like that.

/confirm
Sorry, meant to confirm on my first post.

This is another bit of a town-tell, the fact that she was so intent on playing the game that she forgot to confirm.

"Why's that a towntell rather than a null-tell?"

Because she was specifically looking forward to scumhunting. It's in her tone. If she was scum, she wouldn't go, "oh, goody, I'm so excited I get to deceive the town! This will be so much fun!" and forget. It just doesn't work that way.

I was just going to post a whole thing about ironhead and some other stuff, and then I realized we're still pregame. I bet this game's gonna turn out well. Especially with all this activity.

The fact that she put the effort into this should tell you she was town. The fact that she was anticipating the game should tell you she is town. The fact that she scrapped it all thinking it wasn't needed should make you realize she was town who simply saw no need to post it.

Well, I don't feel like typing it up again, so in a nutshell, I pretty much wrote the following:

I don't like RVS either (meaing that although I like spectating, I don't like participating.) And that not liking RVS isn't necesarilly a scum tell.

This furthers the feeling.

Please explain this part of your post, it was basically useless. (I'm sorry if I missed something, I probably did, but can someone explain the point of it anyways?)

Reads as a town tone, this not understanding.

RVS. Votes are info.

I can't pin it down. (So call it Gut if you MUST, though this doesn't feel like gut.) But something in here makes this feel town, rather than null. Something about the Tone just seems to be in the mind-set of a pro-town player.

What information related to the game have we gained from knowing timezones, games completed, and projected activity level?

This makes it a little more explicit. It doesn't have the slight condescending/scolding tone I'd expect from scum. It has the curious, puppy-like feeling of a pro-town player legitimately asking, wanting to get a real answer rather than a rhetorical one.

Alright... then based on our responses to those questions who looks the most like scum?

Again, this appears to be legitimately trying to get an answer, to get real info from Jily. Rather than a rhetorical (slightly condescending) question. Tone is everything.

/late to the RVS party

Vote Jily

You couldn't be bothered to rewrite 5 sentences?

Contrary to popular belief, this is NOT a scum way of thinking. Quite the opposite, I've never, EVER seen scum think this way. It's always town. Especially the bolded.

4. I prefer RQS. It is too easy for scum to fly under the radar in RVS, because of course their votes are not random.

This methodical approach to the game seems like a town take on things. Iron was essentially advocating equal pressure on all players, which RQS generates. Equal pressure-->equal attention on all players-->scum can't slip under the radar. In other words, Iron was quite logically deducing that the best strategy for the town was the RQS.

Why must RVS result in bandwagons? Couldn't it proceed with an approximately equal distribution of votes among several candidates?

This furthers the above, in that Iron wanted equal distribution, equal pressure applied, rather than focusing on a single player via bandwagoning.

By the way, I hate unjustified bandwagons -- another way for scum to fly under the radar.

To Iron, everything must have a reason behind it. And if the reason is invisible, Iron can't analyze it. And therefore, to Iron, it looks bad. This shows a town thought process, in that he's trying to make sense of the game.

Also, since this is not the first time I've worked on an Ironhead is Town case, my notes from last time:
(Abandoned due to Scumhunter Rendering it pretty unnecessary, but still...)

Equal distribution. I don't know about you, but to me, this sounds like a logical approach to the game: balance things out equally, rather than tip the scales towards one person. (A bandwagon.)

I thought I made the connection pretty solid between what wierdalex said and what the implication is. Are you indicting the connection? If so, where exactly did I fail to connect the argument to the conclusion?

Key word usage here. "Connect". Multiple times. In this context, it's very strong.

I think RQS generates more useful discussion than RVS -- besides, not everyone gets pressured during RVS.

This makes logical sense, since Random Votes for Random Reasons are difficult (some say impossible, though I disagree) to decipher, whereas Random Questions and Answers are comparatively easier to figure out. It also creates a valid point about pressure, again bringing up the logical, "balanced" view from Ironhead.

I have asked you to explain your failure to follow my logic (please review post #68) and you have not only ignored it, but you continue to obfuscate. You are not acting in the best interests of the town. If you wish to exercise the town's power to lynch, it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate a strong reason. Saying "I personally want to see Iron go first" is not a compelling reason.

I am a stickler for unimpeachable logic (as splitfarvle can attest, as we just finished a game together). If you are going to sling faulty logic through this game, I will identify it as garbage for you. Poor logic in itself is not a definitive scum-tell, but it is not pro-town.

This quote shows both his firm devotion to putting logic back into scumhunting, along with prodding WormyKrew somewhat, testing them, to get a feel for whether they're just anti-town playstyle, or anti-town role. (In other words, scumhunting.)

The point is, the uninformed town can be manipulated by the scum without even knowing they are being manipulated

[*snip*]

and no one can avoid having to take an early stand on some semi-relevant question.

When this is combined, you end up getting a solid town-read from Iron. It's hard to explain. Like it only comes from a town perspective. I'm trying to figure out an explanation for it. It's just a thought process, a thought pattern, a kind of Motivation (I suppose) that only comes from town.

Was that a serious [pregame] vote (I mean, it won't count, but is it with the intent of voting me when the game starts)? Because I don't see what we would really get out of just voting everybody randomly.

This is one of the possible hints that Alex is town. His curious attitude doesn't read in this post to me as being scum. (In other words, it doesn't seem like "Why Me = Fry Me"*. )

*

(For the record, that saying was not around when I was a regular at EpicMafia and I don't endorse its usage.)

Well then, I guess I should come out right now and say that I am considered an active lurker. I don't try to, but everyone says I do. I dunno. And people keep telling me I'm obnoxious. I don't try to.

*link to one of his games*

This seemed good-natured. Like he was being upfront and town, truthfully telling us about himself, being open and allowing us to read into him. Giving off that town Tone, a tone hard to fake.

All I've been is Vanilla Townie, so I have no clue.

This is Alex's town-slip. There's no Weasel Wording. No, "so far" after "been". Nothing to suggest that it's changed in this game. If it had changed, I'd expect something like "Up to this point, all I've been", or "All I've been so far is", "all I've been previously is", "All I have been is", "All I have been in the past", etc. Something like that, if it weren't the case right now.

I didn't see that. I saw someone accidentally soft-claiming VT, without realizing they town-slipped.

@Ironhead: What's so bad about it? You get a few good reads, and it generates enough discussion to get the game going.

This innocence looks legitimate, like it was said with the town intonation.

Agreed. I want to hear what Jily has to say about it.

I have a hard time believing Alex would blatantly sheep a scumbuddy, so Alex is not scum with WormyKrew. Since WormyKrew is my main suspect...

I find it odd you'd call this "personal benefit".

This is a question which can only come from town.

That said, I've only READ RQS and never been a part of it.

For the same reason this is a town-tell for Jily, it is a town-tell for Secret as well.

Ironhead's post puts way more than weirdalex actually said into his mouth. Trying to paint something as scummy that's totally null.

Immediately comes to scumhunting the moment he can. It gives off that town impression.

Notice how his language changes in between his 2nd and 3rd post. It's an interesting defense, I've never seen it done, but he enhances his language after me and worm got on him, as if that makes him look more town.

I have a hard time believing scum would pick up in a change of tone in posts. It's something a pro-town player would think of, though. It also gives off the town tunnel vibe, rather than the scum tunnel vibe.

Town, easily. There's SO much less pressure on me, and therefore much less lurking (such is usually my awful scum playstyle). In all, it makes for a more active/fun game for me.

This gives me reason to believe Elsa's town, since if she wasn't, she'd be more obligated to replace out. Why? She's V/LA and would have more pressure. She's V/LA and would know that'd mean she'd appear to be lurking.

She's V/LA and doesn't want to get out, so she must be having fun.

See where this is going?

Hah, I had no idea that votes were not counting yet. I think I saw someone else vote and did so myself, thinking the RVS was upon us.

For the same reason Monk is town, so too is Elsa.


Gerhard is town. The way he handled the RV out of the RVS was done well.

This was a very safe thing to say. You established yourself firmly on the fence without stepping on anyone's toes. I'd expect newbie town to do this, but not someone in a mini normal.

This legitimate scumhunting also solidifies that. His vote was well-placed and his stance was justified.

Spoiler: SCUM CASE

First off, if Yoshi is scum, it's not with either TWIE or Alduskkel.
Why?
A simple but eloquent tell:

*waves at Alduskkel and TWIE*

This is important, because if Yoshi were scum with either, he'd simply say this in the scum QT and not mention something of this nature in-thread.

1. wierdalexv
2. splitfarvie Scumhunter
3. Elsa von Spielburg
4. Gerhard Krause Captain Corporal
5. jilynne1991
6. TheWayItEnds
7. DarthYoshi
8. monk
9. Secret Project
10. Ironhead
11. Alduskkel
12. flinter mastin2
13. WormyKrew

This is just a matter of randomization, but I sincerely doubt both Alduskkel and WormyKrew would be scum, not that closely tied together. Yoshi, on the other hand, is right in the zone.

Of course, I

can never

probably shouldn't

use this in-thread; people will consider it TOO insane. But it IS a valid reason in MY opinion! >_<

^I posted this in my QT earlier. Essentially, it said "Ald and WormyKrew aren't scum together, but Yoshi could be with either of them." (Though now it's pretty much only WormyKrew.)

Vote: Secret Project. Secrecy is scummy, duh.

Tone. It's RVS, but the tone in here is off. It's unnatural, artificial.

I'm pretty active. I'll do my best to post every day.

Said Tuesday 31st in May. (Yes, I'm going to keep track of this. Yoshi himself has admitted it's one of the most important questions.)

Why are not trying to be "attack-ish?" Don't want to alienate us lest we try to lynch you?

This reads as the condescending scum attitude. I don't see this as the town legitimately inquiring. This gives off the Tone of scum who is trying to take advantage of a poor player, who is prodding her, looking for potential weaknesses and bandwagon viability.

Alex creates a (albeit weak) link to a Yoshi-Alex pairing in #31.

With a net. Or, I'm still working on how to avoid associative tells, so if I had a buddy flip, finding me might not be too hard.

This gave off the tone of Lampshade Hanging. (What? I lampshade all the time when I'm scum! It's incredibly obvious after I'm dead, but virtually invisible while I'm alive.)

@Alduskkel: If your vote on me was RVS, why are you wagoning me instead of monk? If your vote wasn't RVS, why are you voting me?

You see? This is the kind of "why" which doesn't come off to me as being the legitimate scumhunting kind. It feels like the scummy "why me" version, rather than the pro-town "explain" version. Kinda hard to explain, but it's all in the Tone.

(Also, I BELIEVE this post made me originally think Yoshi-Ald as a scumteam, due to it coming off as scum voting scumbuddy, and scumbuddy asking "why". I've since grown to believe they're not scum together [see above], but I once did.)

Can you please elaborate?

Once more, this did not seem like the town tone, asking for further reasoning. In this case, it being polite made it sound worse than if it had been blunt and to the point. Creates an Iron-Yoshi link, though I think Iron's town.

I have not seen a RQ that I liked, so I prefer RVs

Highly ironic and somewhat hypocritical.

Ear's 23 seems condescending, in the scum sort of way. (Tone is key.)

I personally prefer scum, because I enjoy manipulating people.

Funnily enough, that's pretty much exactly what seems to have happened. WormyKrew's posts contain a lot of things which tend to give the aura of trying to get on people's good sides.

More than that, a bit of a crazy theory: They decided Ear would represent them until the hydra got activated. Then, they got the scum PM. Ear got worried, not liking to play as scum. Sleepy took over specifically because Sleepy likes being scum.

VOTE: ironhead
We both agree that his single post was scummy. It's like he's trying to avoid RVS... I wonder why?

This seems like blatant sheeping/parroting of the other hydra, Secret Project.

Not liking RVS is obvscum. Lynchlynchlynch
RQS is not pressure.

So, essentially, Sleepy went after the easy wagons of Jily (newb) and Ironhead (Secret Project supported).

Anyways, your preference doesn't matter. This town has already chosen RVS and not participating is counterproductive and scummy.

Reads as condescending, perhaps as scum coaching.

Anyways, your preference doesn't matter. This town has already chosen RVS and not participating is counterproductive and scummy.

This tone is that of the typical condescending scum.

So, I'm thinking Iron/jil team? I personally want to see Iron go first.

Making the above official, after Secret had reaffirmed his dislike of both, essentially, further buddying up to Secret by sheeping his reads.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jil

Blatant bandwagoning.

Jil is playing really bad.

The thing is. There's a huge difference between "playing bad" and "scum".

By stating "Jily is playing really bad", WormyKrew has effectively scumslipped, in revealing they think Jily is town, playing bad, not scum. See how that works?

It wasn't "Jily is anti-town". Voting someone anti-town is a bit of a newb-mistake, but is mostly null. It wasn't "jily is scummy". That'd be scumhunting. It was, specifically, "Jily is playing really bad".

Saying someone is Anti-Town makes no statement either way. It's neutral. Saying someone is scummy makes a statement that you think they're more likely to be scum (most frequently, anyway).

"Playing Bad", on the other hand, has the OPPOSITE implication, that you think they're TOWN. And yet, they vote Jily, anyway. Hence, the scumslip.

Why would it matter in the first place if we were in pregame or not? You could've still posted your thoughts.

This is the condescending scum Tone. Not the legitimately curious town tone.

Jil needs massive pressure

This? This is a further admittance to knowing Jily is town. How? "Massive Pressure", rather than "desperate need of rope". It's just how town thinks. Town doesn't think, "this person's scummy, so they need massive pressure".

They'll either think, "Oh, this person needs some pressure VOTE: person", or "this person needs rope". It's all in the exact wording. Details are vital, giving off a completely different feel to a post.

Because I don't see what we would really get out of just voting everybody randomly.

This creates a

possible

contradiction, in that Alex...voted randomly. (This is weak. Very weak.)

I dunno why, TBH.

This is another (extremely weak!) possible reason Alex could be scum: the fact that he voted Yoshi pre-game, but doesn't know why he did so when he knows it won't count. Creates a Yoshi-Alex link.

DarthYoshi 3 (L-4) Wiredalexv, Alduskkel, Monk

At this stage in the game, you'd kinda expect one scum there.

It seems odd that Jily couldn't be bothered to write out 5 sentences.
Somewhat serious VOTE: Jilynne1991

It's a bit concerning to see Alex bandwagoning, for a somewhat flimsy wagon, which reason isn't even that original.

2. I have a wiki. For your convenience though, I have completed 23 non-marathon games. I think that makes me one of the more experienced players in the game, although Elsa and Ironhead seem to have loads of IRL experience.

Tone in here seems a bit condescending. It sort-of gives off the impression, "Look at me! I'm more experienced than you! You can listen to me!" Like Ald is taking advantage of his experience.

Vote: DarthYoshi

A reasonless Random Vote. I find it a bit hard to believe, honestly.

DarthYoshi 3 (L-4) Wiredalexv, Alduskkel, Monk

While admittedly weak, it would not be uncommon to have one scum in there.

And if you laugh (and/or no longer hold any respect whatsoever for my reads), I so totally get to say "I told you so".

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Yoshi Response

This is going to be a common point I'll return to--I have four completed games as scum. In only one of them have I ever bussed a buddy on D1, and in that game (Chesskid's fishslappers mafia) it was out of necessity when the deadline was a-comin' 'round the bend. I have voted both Ald and WK without any urgency.

Oh. Right. This reminds me.

Something I was going to make clear in the finished case (but didn't do in the above, thanks to it being posted while incomplete), was that I believe ONE OF Yoshi/Ald to be scum FOR SURE, but that the OTHER among them would be confirmed town.

What does this have to do with me being scum? Has my activity level not been to your liking or something?

Yet another thing which was meant for a finished case. Specifically, when I got around to ISOs, checking activity in them, from "promised" to "delivered". See if they match up. (I DID warn you it wasn't even close to finished...)

Asking for further reasoning is a scumtell?

Strawmanning the point. The point was that you asked in a polite tone for my reasoning, which was the scum way to word things, versus the town way, which would be far more blunt and to the point.

If you've been keeping track at home, three of Mastin's points against me are simply gut feeling about the 'tone' of my posts.

I'm going to make this as clear as I can.

Tone is

NOT

the same thing as gut!

Why such emphasis on it? Well, to be quite frank, I could ramble all day on the difference between them, but it's better suited for MD, and I'd rather not clutter the thread in here with that. So, instead of the huge ramble explaining how they're different, you get huge text.

Almost all of these points come from very early in the game, which strongly suggests tunnelvision on Mastin's part.

Two things. 1: I am a strong advocate of early-game play being far more telling than mid-to-late-game play. Specifically, I've been a strong advocate of "all the information needed to find the scumteam within the first ~5 pages". (Give or take a couple.) So, yeah. Of COURSE I have a lot of stuff on the early game, because to me, the early game is quite frankly more vital than the late game.

2: As I said. The case might extent only to the first four pages in words. But in my mind, I'm in the thirties. In other words, I have to physically type out twenty-five-ish pages which my mind has already worked out, and worked out long ago. In other words, of COURSE it's only the early game; that's exactly what I warned you of, that I wasn't finished. But that it is FAR from all of my case, because there's a lot more--it's just all in my head, and typing out the twenty-five pages already in my head takes a LOT of time.

As for Soben's post:
I tried to make sense of it, but I can't. It's an incoherent wall of words I can't seem to understand.

[mastin2]

(Sorry. This game is a great reminder of how I need to take Notes far,

far

more often. )

[mastin2]

Not helping.

I do believe though that you've taken initial slight tone indicators and exaggerated them massively to attempt to explain your reads when those instances of town-style town are minimal, weak and rare.

If I'm reading this correctly, "Town tone is weaker and harder to pick up" Not for me. For me, it's actually far easier to get TOWN tones than SCUM tones. Scum tones are quite hard for me to be sure of--I get a lot more False Positives for Scum Tone than I EVER do for Town Tones. (This might also explain why you think I'm exaggerating tone--because you primarily looked at the "Scum Case", and saw it there a lot. See above.)

Spoiler: Motive/Intention

If you're attempting to determine whether a player is town or not looking for the motivations behind the post while noting what have they done in an attempt to help and propel town further into the game is also crucial.

These are two separate things entirely. "what they have done in an attempt to try and get the town further" is different from Motive, because Motive is "what they have ATTEMPTED to do to further the town". Subtle, but key difference. Showing what they have done, versus what they intended to do. (And this is also different from a third, "what they said they would do", versus what they have done, and what they intended to do*.)

*To explain,
Player X says, "I am going to do Y." Saying what they intended to do.
Player X delivers Z.
Z does not look like Y. So, they failed to do what they said they would, right?
Z might not look like Y, but if you look at it from the perspective of Player X, does Z look like it was INTENDED to be Y? If the answer's yes, they're town. If the answer's no, they're scum.

That's the scenario I can best think up of to describe how these concepts are all different. Z-->Content Delivered. Quite frankly, this is null. Someone can bleed content in every single post and be scum, someone can deliver absolutely no content and be town. Y-->What they said previously (in the early game) what would happen. Failure/success to deliver is ALSO null. What's important is the Intention/Motive from their perspective.

Essentially.

It's very hard to explain this level of scumhunting. But put bluntly, I think your definition of Motive/Intention is different than mine.

By doing so I do indeed get a slight town-read from Jillyn and Alex therefore can understand your reads on them however I continue to be startled by your insistance that TWIE and Elsa are town.

This is simple. I see in TWIE and Elsa the same thing I see in Monk, Gerhard/Captain (same thing, really), Jily, and--to some extent--Alex. As far as I'm concerned, they're pretty much one and the same.

and relies heavily on player interactions which may be useful further into the game mean absolutely nothing in a situation like this.

Player interactions are important at ALL stages in the game. Admittedly, on Day One, I get a LOT of false positives for interactions between others. (Though this is another thing which doesn't work the other way--when I see a player who LACKS connections to other players, guess what? They're town. And I almost NEVER get false positives on THAT.) But when I look at things, I realize that I wasn't off. I had the right reasons, the correct logic, just formed the wrong conclusion from it. And upon review, frequently find the revised opinion, the revised take on things, to be more accurate. If that makes sense.

(As for Gut, see my rant.)

[mastin2]

(And, yeah, still haven't begun my Notes again.)

PS: What informs your thoughts on tone? If it is gut, instinct, etc., then yes, there is overlap.

Combination of both, actually. There are certain general patterns which I observe and have logically assigned to "scum" and "town". (Hard to explain. It's a concept I'm not used to having challenged, really.) However, not everything is so clear cut, since it's hard to say with pure logic, "this post had a scum Tone", so gut comes into it, yes.

Key words, "come into". Not "is completely made of". Gut's part of it, but only part of it.

[mastin2]

Though I believe the examples you've shown for town tone are very very weak though and I believe you're clinging to them to a point where it's becoming hurtful.

It's not just them. Tone, Motive, Interactions, all consistent throughout the game, point to town. Heck, you can throw Iron's name in there as well. Iron, TWIE, Elsa, Monk, Jily, both Gerhard and Captain, to some extent, Alex. (Alex is funny--a lot of his posts give half-town, half-scum looks. One half of the post looks like it could only come from town, the other half looks like it's more likely to be from scum.) I showed the first four, since that's what I have written. But going into later pages would give me the exact same thing, for many players. (Admittedly, there are one or two players I remember having seen a possible difference in.)

This is untrue. The examples you've shown in relation to TWIE and Elsa's "Town Tone" stem purely from the RVS period, had you noticed any of their actions afterwards you would have noticed otherwise.

See above. I showed the first four. But as I've now said for the third time, in my mind, I'm in the thirties. And while the Town Tone displayed was from the RVS, it continued (contrary to what you think) after that.

an example of this in action is your continual refrainment from addressing the points I brought up about TWIE earlier.

I fully intend to address them. When I get to that page in my cases. Not before then.

Interactions are very important - Yes I agree because it helps to work out unlikley or likely partnerships giving you a direction to look into however a players individual scumminess is by far the most vital element to look into on day one.

No. It's the combination of them that's important. If a player is scummy, but has no interactions with others, then lynching them provides no new info. There's no condemning interactions with others.
In other words, we already know everything we would from their flip. (And 9/10 times, it's that they're town, since--duh!--there's no condemning interactions with others.)

I'm of COURSE not willing to lynch a player purely off of interactions, due to the number of false positives.

No, I COMBINE them. If a player is scummy, AND has connections to another player, those interactions are vital to investigate.

and far too little attempting to explain your reads in coherent and logical form.

They make sense to ME! I already have coherent and logical reads. For me. I just know my thought process differs from most people's, and therefore, I need to translate, convert the reads into more traditional terms, since "coherent and logical to Mastin" translates to "incoherent, illogical gibberish" to others. It's a Code, essentially, that the Blue moglin needs to self-translate.

[mastin2]

Iron: three scum is kinda the standard in minis. Believe me, I'd be overjoyed if there was only two, but most have three. It's not an unreasonable assumption. (And, hey, always best to assume the worst. )

As for Secret's case, I can't say I agree with it. I'll see if I can go into details later. It's something which kinda requires more insightful looking into the game. (Like a Case.) Which means I'll have to stop slacking off.

[mastin2]

Oh, and by the way.

This is the worst possible timing (and a bit short notice, sorry; didn't realize it was this close), but I'm

V/LA 22nd-28th

. Wedding, kinda in the Central US. Driving there and back. (Long drive.)

[mastin2]

No. Got a town-read on 'em.

[mastin2]

Hey, guys. White I know it's all good and fun chasing our numerous suspects for various reasons, I have three words for you guys: deadline, five days--choose a Towering lynch which has a great deal of support, instead of these numerous side-lynches.

Alex? Vigged, but not lynched.
Elsa? Pretty much the same.
They're both out.

Captain? Not enough support. (

I

certainly don't support it, for instance.)
Jily? Not happening. Not now, not ever.
Yoshi? (I wish! >_<) No support.
Broken?
I don't think there's enough support. (You certainly lack

my

support, at the very least.)
Secret? Oh, heck no.
Iron? Not nearly enough support. (And...yeah. Definitely not me. )
Ald? (I wish! :/) Not enough support.
TWIE?
Honestly, I'd rather see TWIE vigged rather than lynched. (That said, my

vig vote remains on alex

. Since I, personally, don't support this lynch.)

So, narrow it down: vote WormyKrew, one of the other lead two {TWIE, Broken} (and if the latter, explain, since support there is VERY weak--just the strongest of the weak), or if it's on someone else, explain to me why they are so overwhelmingly scum, are more worthy of lynching than ANY of your OTHER suspects, and do it so well that you can convince me in three days. Not the full five. Three. Since
1: I have to leave, then,
and
2: We can't get a lynch in less time than that, without it being rushed.

No exceptions.

I don't care if voting one of the options I presented isn't your #1 suspect. There's more than one scum in this game, and you should have AT LEAST 2-3 suspects for scum, meaning it's time to settle into a lynch or settle into NONE.

We don't want that, do we?

WormyKrew.
Possibly TWIE.
POTENTIALLY (this is VERY weak) Broken.

These names are common suspicions, that aren't being vig-voted. (Speaking of vig-votes, narrow it down to just Alex or Elsa, possibly TWIE. NOBODY ELSE. Just those two/three.) Reach a majority, even if they're your number threes, rather than number ones. Or convince us how your number one is SO much better. Since I'm not seeing that. At all.

[mastin2]

Actually, by "three days", I should mean "two and a half".

(And, for the record, my vote is right where it needs to be--WormyKrew. Who I see as the only lynch which can possibly get through in the alloted time. I'm willing to be proven wrong, and if it's between *any number of my town-reads* and a no-lynch, I'd hammer said town-read, but I simply don't see it happening.)

[mastin2]

"Please keep your hands and feet inside the hydra at all times."

Alex's 854 is one of the reasons he should be vigged. He switches from one wagon, with three, to another wagon, which now has three due to him. He isn't switching to a larger wagon at all. His choice is also not that helpful.

Additionally, Alex's vote goes against the wishes of at least me, {half of Soben}, and {half of Secret Project}. Soben's 851 agreed that {TWIE, Broken, Wormy} would be the lynch candidates, and that {Elsa, Alex, TWIE} would be the vig candidates.
Secret somewhat agreed in 852, saying that {Broken, Wormy} should be the lynch candidates and that {Alex, ? (broken chain of thought?)} should be the vig candidates.

Elsa's name is in the vig pool, not the lynch pool.

That's at least three player slots (okay, so I should technically say it's really one and two halves The halves that didn't say 851/852 should say whether they agree or disagree) who are narrowing down (and agreeing) on lynch/vig suspects.

Two days. In two days, I'll be leaving. In two days, we'll have run out of time to decide, since less than 48 hours will mean a last-minute rush which usually is disastrous.

Exactly 48 hours.

We need to make this work.

[mastin2]

WormyKrew still has three (Me, Jil, Ald),
TWIE still has three (Broken, Iron, Soben),
Broken has two,
Elsa has two.

You can tell which of these I'm more in support of, can't you?

[mastin2]

I am available.
However, Claims are a Common courtesy.
More than that, there's still...oh, ~36 hours (give or take) before my deadline. And because I don't like the TWIE wagon. (Like I said. Willing to hammer, but really don't want to.)

[mastin2]

I don't want you to die, Soben.
You're by far the most pro-town player here.

[mastin2]

*sigh*
My Patients is really being tested right now.

Less than 12 hours until I have to leave. It'd make me feel MUCH better if I knew Krew's alignment before I left. (Considering if I don't, I'll be thinking about it for all five days, non-stop. )

[mastin2]

Captain.

Please?

I'm not going to have a minute's rest during the trip if I don't see a lynch... >_<

[mastin2]

Nah, Sleepy's scum.
Town when hammered try to do last-minute work.
Last-minute scumhunting.

Scum justify their play. (Town will occasionally justify their play, but while doing so, they're simultaneously scum hunting.)

Like Sleepy's doing right now.

Additionally, Sleepy's not flat-out claiming to be town. That's kinda a dead giveaway.

Trust me. I've been hammered town/scum, and seen hammered town/scum a hundred times.

PS, Mastin, I hought the urgency to get a lynch was for enough time for claims and whatnot based on your comment about it being a courtesy.

Whut?
You're making no sense here.

I cannot comprehend what you're trying to say, right here.

[mastin2]

You weren't at L-1 last time you logged in, and next time you logged in, you were at L-0. No chance to hammer yourself.

[mastin2]

Dang. I was kinda hoping that there was enough suspicion on Secret that they wouldn't be NK'd.

TWIE is confirmed town.
As is Elsa.

Think about it--WormyKrew was on both of their wagons.
Additionally, WormyKrew (scumwagon) had TWIE as a counterwagon.

When was the last time you saw BOTH of the lead wagons being on scum? (Hint: it doesn't happen.) TWIE was the counterwagon to WormyKrew, WormyKrew flips scum, TWIE is confirmed town. Perfect sense to me.
Elsa also is likely town, for WormyKrew wanting her vigged. Think about it--a vig-vote is not the same as a lynch-vote.
Also, Jily is still likely town, despite the failed kill.

I'll be reading all of the walls and responding in more detail once I'm fully recovered. (32 hours of driving. Not fun stuff.)


Also. As good as an Alex lynch is today.

You guys should sheep me.

One of Ald or Yoshi should be lynched today.

I guarantee you, ONE of them is scum. Not sure which one. As nice as a lynch on Alex is, he is not the best lynch.

Again, will be elaborating on all of this. Give me a couple hours or so to recover.

[mastin2]

Speaking of which.

Vote: Ald

.
Though this is incredibly hard for me to decide between. (I almost went Yoshi.)

[mastin2]

First off, sorry for the tone in that post. I'm not in a very Hospitable mood after vacation.

Second off, I meant it: Ald or Yoshi need to die today. Not Alex.

Third off: {Broken, Iron, Soben, Alex} contains EXACTLY one scum. No more. If Alex isn't it, I actually have a good idea of who it is. Would prefer not to elaborate, of course. Also, in the group of {Alduskkel, Ironhead, Darth Yoshi, Soben}, there is a MINIMUM of one scum. (Possible--but VERY improbable--to have two.) It's almost certainly either Ald or Yoshi.

Fourth off. Responding to wall time.

This is ridiculous because the part I bolded is just what you get if you expand wierdalex's contraction (I've --> I have) in the original quote.

No. "I've" is NOT the same as "I have". The difference is very subtle. But it gives off a different message. It's a very slight difference, but it gives off that altered tone, altered message.

Also, rolefishing?

Why did you think I didn't want to post the town-slip?

That is not how randomizing roles works.

And--of course--you pick the very weakest part of my argument to attack.

Now, unless we managed to have 2 scum as our leading bandwagons on Day 1, I'd wager that there's scum in the people who were trying to counterbalance the WormyKrew lynch with a TheWayItEnds lynch.

Dang. Someone beat me to it.

Looking at brokenscraps (who also benefited most from the NK...), wierdalex, and Soben

For the record? This reeks of bussing. Specifically, the "buddy and two townies" type of bussing. Vote will remain.

Also, Ald's overall suspects are...shall we say...quite weak. Me, the three above, no vote, and...pretty much no commentary about other players. (He called TWIE and Elsa town, but aside from that, he is leaving himself open to vote for...pretty much any player on the list.)

Captain remains town.

For the record?

This looks like scum covering their tracks for not being on the scum-lynching wagon.

Lines like this (not to mention overall tone) are one of the reasons Yoshi continues to be right there at the top of my list.

Okay, day before LyLo, if town hasn't already won, then Jily needs to be policy lynched.

Let me put this in the best possible wording:

No

.

And.... exactly how sure were you?

About 75%. Give or take 5%. (Most likely take.) Sure enough to say it. The reason why is due to a conclusion I made when doing setup speculation. (I was obviously wrong, and now have a new theory.) I'd prefer not to share my thoughts on that, for obvious reasons.


Fifth off. I need to reread. The only thing I'm sure of right now is that {Ald, Yoshi} contains one scum. Everything else I'm less positive on.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Yoshi response

So why aren't you voting for someone who was off the WK wagon (or on the TWIE wagon)?

Not sure enough on any of them. Alex is wavering back and forth WAY too much for me to be comfortable with his lynch, for instance.

You/Ald, on the other hand, is getting stronger each time you post. It's like you two are in a constant Tug-Of-War to see "Who Can Look More Scummy To Mastin".

BTW--does it NOT surprise you, in the slightest, that the two players you have most recently had your votes on--WK and Ald--happened to be two of MY biggest scumreads? And yet I'm still almost your #1 suspect? For the love of whatever is holy to you, Mastin, take the pants off of your head.

I've made it clear you and Ald are Mutually Exclusive Alignments.

One of you is town.
The other is scum.

I'm 95% sure about this.

How do you reconcile this with your later analysis that within Soben/Alex/Iron/Broken is one scum and that if it isn't Alex, you know who it is? That means that from your perspective, Alex is as informative a lynch to you as either Ald or me. So why aren't you voting Alex?

You're not looking at the exact words. "have a good idea" is not the same as "I am sure". Have A Good Idea translates to, oh, about 70-80%. Rather than you/Ald. 95%.

And your post here is yet another example of why you continue to be at the top with Ald, making it harder for me to stay on him. Trying to get me onto Alex, for instance.

Also, Mastin, FWIW, you have no room to call out other players for a lack of commentary on their suspect list.

Did I ever?

Again--SAY WHY. I shouldn't have to ask you so many times to explain yourself.

Jily is obv-town. Was so BEFORE the claim. This should be perfectly obvious. No need to explain something perfectly obvious.

/Is getting a bit tired.

[mastin2]

To summarize, GENERAL VIEW:

Spoiler: the list

1. wierdalexv <--Wavers between town and scum. A lot. Too much for me to be comfortable with his lynch.
2. splitfarvie Scumhunter <--Null, town-lean.
3. Elsa von Spielburg <--Confirmed town.
4. Gerhard Krause Captain Corporal <--Town.
5. jilynne1991 <--Confirmed town.
6. TheWayItEnds <--Confirmed town.
7. DarthYoshi <--100% town/scum. (Opposite of Ald.)
8. monk Brokenscraps <--Null. (Was town-lean.)
10. Ironhead <--Town-read. VERY strong town-read, to the point where Iron is just below Captain.
11. Alduskkel <--100% scum/town. (opposite of Yoshi.)

RE-ORDERED:

TOWN:
TWIE
Elsa
Jily
*Yosh/Ald*
Captain
Iron

NULL:
Alex
Soben
Broken
Alex

SCUM:
*Ald/Yosh*

"...You're missing one."
...Hence the reread needed.

[mastin2]

pretty much no commentary about other players
^I've given plenty of commentary on ALL other players. PLENTY. ALL.

Ald gave commentary on only a few. Sure, on a few names, he commented on. But on others, he ignored.

If that makes sense.

[mastin2]

Still a bit tired right now, sorry. But I've got an idea in my head. An idea which refuses to die. I know, I hate it, but it happens. I'm too exhausted to Finish My Notes, right now, but needless to say, I think I need to reread.

But to answer your question. If I eliminated both you and Soben (trust me--I noticed you two were in both groups quite some time ago) from both groups, then that leaves Broken (a town-read) and Alex (a...well... ... ...yeah. ) in that group, and Ald/Yoshi in the other.

Those lists I posted, I know are on to something.

If you don't mind, right now, I think I need sleep. Look at me; my sentence structure is degrading.

[mastin2]

I got some sleep last night, and am now thinking a little more coherently. Still, though. I haven't re-read, but I need to. "The Monster inside of me is getting larger."
(In this case, that being, an idea taking ahold of my mind. It's growing, getting larger. And I need to see if this idea is well-based, or shoot it down quickly before it evolves to tunnel vision. That's what the re-read is for.
If I'm right, I DEFINITELY will not support an Alex lynch, for starters.)

[mastin2]

I'm going to refrain from responding. It'd just be a lot of "and this is why you're scum, this is further reason to keep my vote on you, you have no idea how scummy this line coming from you is," etc. I'm a bit sick right now, so I'm not exactly coherent enough to explain why.

(Though, that said, even if I was, it'd be a wall.

Read "Mastin's Guide To Playing Well*". It's buried in MD somewhere, and might be on the wiki, too.)

*Said Guide outlines the importance of Voting, for instance. And outlines why constant walls kill towns.
(There's a reason I hate walls: I've seen their negative effect on all Mafia Game forums I've played. They've consistently made the game less fun for other people, and that's the main reason I've been trying my best to get rid of them.)

[mastin2]

I don't think I need to Defend Elsa anymore, since that above post pretty much confirmed her once and for all 100% as town.

[mastin2]

can I have everyone's read on me, btw, because I've mostly ignored my past self when reading the thread and want to know where I stand

I had a town-read on both your predecessors.
You solidified it.
It also solidified one of the things I had been doubting.

Trust me, once I'm less distracted (for instance, on desktop rather than laptop) and more coherent (1 am after a long day), I'm going to pull together this game and confirm something which you just helped me think of.

Twisted's 1020 quoting WK is evidence of one scum. Standard scum prodeedure, and all that.
It's not Secret or Jily.

Therefore once and for all confirming one scum between {Ald, Yoshi}.
It also reinforces my Ald read above Yoshi.
1022 continues to bring up valid points.

conclusions: one of Yoshi and Ald should be scum. It's not an easy decision though.

Stuff like this means either Twisted is scum blatantly sucking up to me and essentially sheeping me,
Or far more likely, is simply town.



...Actually.

Let's make it official.

If they're smart enough, they figured it out already.

The scumteam is one of {Ald, Yoshi} and {Soben, Alex}

. And that contagious idea I've had growing? That the scum in there isn't Alex...but rather, Soben.


I haven't done my research. (I'll see if I can pick my play up this game.) But my gut is really telling me not to let go of this. That having a strong (Strongest, actually!) town-read on Soben was a Mistake which I should Regret. That Alex is town, and Soben is scum.

[mastin2]

Dang. I was kinda hoping that there was enough suspicion on Secret that they wouldn't be NK'd.

This. When I posted this.
It sparked a thought.

"Wait. Why WASN'T

Soben

killed?!?"

Because. Let's face it. On Day one--in order--the three least suspected players were Soben, myself, and Secret.

Secret was third-least-suspected, and yet, got killed over myself, and Soben.

That left the burning question--why.
Why wasn't Soben targetted?

There had been SERIOUS interest in a Secret lynch. Admittedly, most of the town (~75% of it, if I had to guess) had Secret as town. But there were a few, seriously calling Secret scum. And a lot of people (myself included!) had their town-read on Secret slightly diminish as the day went on.

What made them such a fantastic nightkill? When there were at least two players less suspected? (As far as they knew, there was no way either myself or Soben would ever be lynched, due to how little support there was.)

I bounced this thought around a little. And then I came to this.

Third off: {Broken, Iron, Soben, Alex} contains EXACTLY one scum. No more. If Alex isn't it,

I actually have a good idea of who it is.

I wasn't sure. It DEFINITELY wasn't Iron. But {Broken, Soben, Alex} contained one scum. I had thought it to be Alex. But the contagion spread: what if it isn't him. What if he's actually town? Who would it be?
Broken or Soben.

And the thought at the time was "probably Soben, but it *could* be Broken..." This thought lasted until Twisted came in. The "alex is not scum" thought still wavered, but evidence continued to grow.

wierdalexv 3 (L-3) Darth Yoshi, jilynne1991, Elsa Von Spielburg

Half-way to a lynch, in so little time, somewhat suspicious, to say the least.

A dead giveaway that my thought process was changing?

2. splitfarvie Scumhunter <--Null, town-lean.
NULL:
Alex
Soben
Broken
Alex

Soben was my strongest town-read day one. (Secret was at a close second, if memory serves.) And had suddenly dropped way back down to Null. (Albeit as a town-lean.) I was beginning to become forgetful of why I read Soben as town.

But I've got an idea in my head. An idea which refuses to die. I know, I hate it, but it happens.

The idea was--of course--"Soben is not the pro-town player you thought them to be..."

But to answer your question. If I eliminated both you and Soben (trust me--I noticed you two were in both groups quite some time ago) from both groups, then that leaves Broken (a town-read) and Alex (a...well... ... ...yeah. ) in that group, and Ald/Yoshi in the other.

Those lists I posted, I know are on to something.

This was another hint. In that I was very careful to make it clear that it was an "if" eliminating Iron AND Soben. (Iron, sure. If Iron's scum, he deserves a scummy nom as far as I'm concerned. ) I also made it clear that Broken (town-read) was there, and Alex was not strong enough of a read to be confident in.
In other words, "I really can't eliminate Soben. Sorry. I just...can't."

978 was the first post Soben made since this read had developed. And...it made me think. "...How did I get such a strong town-read on them?!?" It continued with pretty much every post they made, dragging me further into the tunnel. More and more, I was beginning to think, "You need to stop holding onto the dead Day1 town-read of Soben and see the truth." And from there, it got stronger.

If I'm right, I DEFINITELY will not support an Alex lynch, for starters.

^That, for instance, was me basically augmenting the above by saying, "I'm...not sure Alex is scum, anymore."

I thought that perhaps he was a scum playing it straight and trying to push TWIE as a straightforward alternative wagon to WK.

And this certainly did not help.

I need to do a re-read, because if I'm just being paranoid, this tunnel vision will be quite anti-town. But, there's always another option. That I wasn't wrong, after all. That Soben really IS scum, like most Day Two posts are saying to me.

Essentially. I need to determine if what I did was Snap something into place (having abandoned my Dead Reads), make a magical realization which makes perfect sense...or if it's plain ol' tunnel visioning, paranoia about someone who is firmly town, with the early-play indeed being the town which I saw it as.

Sorry. It's now 2:20 am, here, so I'm not explaining it that well. I think I'm rambling right now.


Addressing Twisted: That's another thing which is making me doubt Alex scum, as well as you.

Since I predicted one scum in {Alex, Broken/You, Iron, Soben}, and you pointed out a townslip which might clear Alex, in addition to me having cleared Iron...

...Well, let's just say that it's been spreading this Cancer just that much faster about Soben as Scum.

[mastin2]

Whoah.
Wall City.

I shoulda named my QT this game that.

Addressing both Twisted and Yoshi: I fail to see how you haven't realized that I HAVE answered the questions you've brought up.

Things which do need addressing, though.


First off.

Stop wasting time on the smaller wagons.

Things like Captain suspicion need to die.
Quickly.

It's not happening today. Most people with more than half a brain are realizing that Gerhard was town, and therefore Captain was town, with Captain's continued actions bleeding town.

And even those who don't have Captain as town, who have him as null or weak scum, realize that there will never be enough support for a lynch on him. Nor SHOULD there be.

And that's not the only ones.
While I respect the Elsa/TWIE viewpoint...

We'd need to decide on ONE name between them to lynch.

But...

Those wagons shouldn't be happening at all.

Not only for lack of support, but additionally, because...

Ald and Yoshi containing one scum is easily provable,

and believed by multiple players

.

(The way it is provable is in MULTIPLE ways. These ways have been evident throughout the days. Their Interactions not being townVtown, their votes at the end of the day, them both being in WormyKrew's town list...)

Yoshi (with Ald being the other, obviously), myself, Twisted, at the very minimum. (

So probably scum in
{DarthYoshi; jilynne1991; Alduskkel}
Hm...changes a bit. With the jilynne-townslip, that means one of DarthYoshi and Alduskkel is probably scum, most likely Alduskkel; have you noticed the way that WK called him town and then [literally, I looked through ISO] never brought him up again?

Him, too!)
Additionally,

It has the highest statistical percentage for finding scum.

If that wasn't enough for you, well, then, let's get some more facts out there.

"But Ald is V/LA! Wagoning him is pointless!"

Having just come from a game where a Scum player was V/LA and the town decided not to lynch said player due to V/LA, excuse me for taking this quite emotionally, but...

SCREW V/LA!

V/LA is NOT an excuse to

ignore

a player!

/End my LargeFontSize Rant.


And with that out of my system...

I don't see why people think he's so obvious town.

If more people than just you felt this way, I'd explain it to you.
But ironically enough, this is the exact same feeling I've been having with Soben.

and why do you assume I'm sheeping just because I reached one similar conclusion????

Look at the post closely. (I thought this was obvious enough already.) I don't. I concluded either you were scum

sheeping

me,
Or you were town.

In other words, you'd only be sheeping me if you were scum. Otherwise, you are town.

Why weren't you NKed, then, since you list yourself as a better NK than SP? This is a relevant question since most of your case on Soben revolves around NK WIFOM.

1: I asked myself the same thing.
"Why was the number three person killed, when there were two people looking more pro-town than them?" Right now. I've got a lot of questions. But no answers to give. I simply don't know. That's why further investigation is required.

2: That's really not the case at all. The case doesn't revolve pretty much at all around Soben having lived through the night. It's simply what sparked the thought. It's what got the idea started in my head, but not the foundation of the idea.

Potentially, yes. I agree it does sound like Alex did not know WK's alignment.

And this doesn't set off alarms to you...how? Alex not having known WK's alignment-->Alex is town-->All the suspicion on him would therefore be of extreme interest-->I don't see that from you.

The big reason I think TWIE should go before Ald is Soben's argument explaining WK's VT claim--that it was to save TWIE's ass.

I thought this in another game.
Not this EXACTLY,

But something similar.

I was wrong.

However, my thought of "the counterwagon to a scum wagon is NOT scum" proved RIGHT in said game.

I find this CC unusual for voting me with a poor, unjustified reason and I think Mastin's protection of him (why does mastin not suspect CC again) may have made him bolder/more reckless

And...this is a scumtell...
...How?

It's null at WORST. If anything, it's a town-tell.



Now, you might be thinking, "...Mastin. What about the OTHER stuff you haven't answered?"
Only, I have. If you pay attention to my posts. I didn't feel like quoting them, and tracking down my answers in my own ISO, but they're there if you look for them.

If you'll excuse me. I haven't worked on my Notes for a while. I think it's about time I Did.

[mastin2]

I did that already.
Multiple times.
When I addressed that I hadn't done a reread of the thread.
Which therefore automatically addresses your point about something in the middle of said thread.

Really, you need to learn how to read that my answers aren't always that direct, but can be figured out via proxy. This was quite obvious to me, that a point about something in the middle of the thread, was already covered by "I haven't reread".

The CC read is kinda hard for me to just on the spot say, "this is what makes him town", since it's BLEEDING off of his posts. It'd be easier for me to point out what ISN'T town, rather than the MASSIVE list of what IS.

[mastin2]

Logic dictates that a counterwagon doesn't have any increased likelihood to be town if it's pushed by town and not scum involved.

You're forgetting. There were five names involved in the counterwagon.
One was WormyKrew.
One was SecretProject.
The other three?

Alex, Iron, and yourself.

There WAS scum there. More than one, in fact.

Unless you have a magical town-read on Alex which I haven't seen from you.

Oh, right, you're saying that in the below paragraph.

I cannot understand how you're willing to rule this out and forget it because one game in the past didn't have two scum leading wagons.

It's not just one game. I've seen it in COUNTLESS games. Heck, this theory isn't even mine, originally. I saw it (forget where), and borrowed it because I realized the logic behind it was solid and right. It has yet to fail me.

It's beyond a Mastin Logic tell. It's "Common Effing Sense"-tell. (There are two exceptions. 1: SK wagons. 2: Multi-faction games. Short of those, it simply doesn't happen.)

You claim to have responded towards your town read on TWIE but you haven't at all, you've attempted to cover it up with illogical garbage rather than any form of solid reasoning.

This.
Lines.
Like.
This.

Are why.

My townread.

Vanished.

There's also the fact that Soben is voting TWIE above Ald.

TWIE's chances of being scum? (To me, 0%.) No more than 40%.
Ald's chances of being scum? No LESS than 50%.

See the difference?

I'll continue Protecting TWIE To the End.

[mastin2]

^Fallacy of appealing to the majority, and actually is not provable without lynching us both.

Doubly wrong. It's not appealing to the majority. It's pointing out how multiple people believe it to be so, and therefore, it has a LOT of support. (Did I mention I've had scum use this exact fallacy against me recently? I was right--they were scum, and their 'fallacy' proved to be quite false.) AT LEAST four players have gotten behind the Yoshi/Ald containing one scum. Yourself included, with the scum between you being Ald, obviously.

And the part about it not being provable?

I GAVE THE FREAKIN' REASONS IN THAT POST. Interactions NOT being townVtown, the fact that you both appear in WormyKrew's town-list (with the other two being Jily and Secret), the votes at the end of the day.

THESE ARE

ALL

TIES WHICH SUPPORT THIS CONCLUSION.

Alright, if it's happened in countless games please provides links to the occurances.

None off the top of my head, of course, since this is just things I've observed over countless games. It's very easy to prove, but I'll need to track down examples.

Heck, just for you, I'll limit it to Mini Normals.

Not right now, of course. This will take a few hours minimum to do.

If a player were to suspect person 1 and 2 with person 1 flipping mafia does that mean person 2 is any less likely to be mafia then say person 3 and 4?

I am not a moron. I know exactly what you're leading this up to.
If two players are wagoned, and one flips scum, then the other is town.
^This is what I'm trying to prove.
If two players are suspected, and one flips scum, then the other is town.
^What you're about to twist the argument into.

No, thank you.

Furthermore where do you draw that TWIE cannot be more than 40% mafia, you're making up statistics and then attempting to force your pathetic reads down our throats while ignoring all of the points brought up over and over against him.

And it's lines like this.

Reinforcing it.


I dunno about you.

But to me, quite frankly, it seems like Soben's posts have changed tone not once, but now twice.

On day one, it seemed like Soben was playing a little conservatively.
On day two, it seemed like Soben had quite frankly become arrogant.
After I revealed my Soben suspicion, said arrogance has become condescendance.

[mastin2]

And this is all just one giant distraction, since I've once more been Neglecting my Notes.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Soben

You're missing the point completely, the only difference between suspecting two players and two players being wagoned that could change the effect is the actions that mafia took during the wagon, to prove that you believe TWIE is town due to the counter wagon you have to prove that it was indeed scum that pushed it therefore you have to show that the players pushing it are scum.

Uh. My reads.

TheWayItEnds 4 (L-3)

Soben

, Brokenscraps,

Wiredalexv

, Ironhead,
WormyKrew 4 (L-3)

Mastin2, jilynne1991

, Alduskkel,

Secret Project

,

You. And Alex. Both on. TWIE.

Instead of doing this you're attempting to use circular logic and saying that TWIE is town because scum pushed it and the players who pushed it are scum because TWIE is town.

Not quite.

TWIE is town, because of being a counter-wagon, most likely driven by scum.

You're scum, for a lot of reasons. Pushing TWIE is among them, sure, but it is not the driving force.

Firstly how do you believe a change in attitude is allignment related?

Overnight? That should be obvious. You thought that you'd be getting a free pass to endgame.
I see no reason for the tone to have changed overnight (at least, in this manner) as town. I see it as scum, though.

Secondly the reasoning behind my change in attitude should be incredibly obvious, it's caused by your complete lack of logic and your insistance that your reads are correct while not properly responding to anything else put forward.

This is just who I am. I have trouble explaining my reads. I can explain my Reasons, sure. The "Why" for those reasons, on the other hand, is...somewhat tricky. It's difficult concepts to explain.
I realize Scumhunter has not seen me before (presumably), but I know for a fact Regfan has.

And knows this about me already. That I know what I'm talking about, that I know I'm onto something, that I know I'm right, that TWIE is a Moronic Mislynch, that {Ald, Yoshi} contains one scum, that I suck at convincing people, but am right, that people will regret not listening to me.

These are things which Regfan has seen in most (if not all) the games with me.

As for fosing us because we appear too town and didn't die n1, LOL, sorry I guess? You need to take your paranoid glasses off although I don't blame you for putting them on for a bit. R and I are having a hard time coming up with multiple strong scumreads as well so ya I hear you.

Nope, not just one head of you.
Since THIS post has that EXACT same tone.

And now, Yoshi.

Bolded emphasis mine. Again, this is appealing to the majority. If multiple people believe it be so, it must be so? Come on, Mastin.

You're twisting the argument, Yoshi. Support != Truth. I'm talking about Support for a Lynch. Not Truth of the Claim.

[REDACTED]

However, that does not make your hypothesis provable.

And I never argued that the support for it could prove it true. Just that the Support for it shows evidence that a lot of people believe it and are willing to follow through on it. (IE, a lynch on Ald is extremely doable.)

What makes it provable are exactly the things I've been arguing. Your interaction with Ald was not townVtown, you two both appeared on WormyKrew's town-list, and the votes at the end of the day.

Those

are what makes it provable.

This is NOT an accurate depiction of the past AT ALL. Mastin, starting as early as your ISO #69, still in the middle of D1, you were suggesting that the interactions between me/Ald suggested scumminess or otherwise scummy connections. Your belief ABSOLUTELY began on the basis of interactions, do NOT pretend otherwise.

Uh, Yoshi? That's exactly what I said. That it WAS interactions--specifically, that the interaction was NOT townVtown.
And since then, more evidence other than interactions has augmented it.

Of COURSE my belief came from interactions. I'm embracing that, openly stating it and will maintain it is true because--quite frankly--it is. You're seriously misreading that post if you think I was saying "I didn't say it was interactions", since I was rather specifically saying it WAS interactions.

[mastin2]

Now, can I please get back to Notes? Too many Distractions...

[mastin2]

For that single link, I bet you I can find a hundred links to counter it. Or can look into the specific incident and see how unusual it is. (Obviously, there are always going to be special situations in which things aren't normal. But said situations are exceptions to the norm and generally have a darn-good reason things played out that way.)

"Never" might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I will spend the time to prove to you how counterwagons to a scum lynch wagon...aren't scum. I know I can do it, because it's something I've observed everywhere.


As for you. There are plenty of reasons for thinking you're scum. I've been trying to get around to them, but you've consistently been distracting me.


...Speaking of which.
Time to begin following my own advice:

Ignoring my scumreads unless my town-reads are being convinced by them.

(Mastin's Guide To Playing Well. It's one of the tips in there.)

(I really Regret having such a strong Soben Townread...)

[mastin2]

Also, should go without saying, but slight V/LA for Marathon Day. (My last game was last night, losing to a Doctor-sk. Olympus, for those interested in digging a game 12 hours old up. The description of "Great Game" is quite accurate.)

[mastin2]

And this is bad timing, I know, but I'll also be

V/LA Friday 'til Monday

. Camping for a 5K run. (Arrive Friday, Run Sunday, come home, but likely dead tired 'til Monday.)

[mastin2]

Dang v/la. Obviously, back, but distracted. 'Course, disappointed right now--was sorta expecting an ald lynch while away, yet the wagon's fallen apart...again.

[mastin2]

/Been busy.

Captain: Soben thinks you're scum for many of the reasons you can find in the very post you ask about that read.

Yeah I don't want a hammer NOW, but if he doesn't respond within the next couple days, I say hammer him.

^Pretty much that. Though I'd be of the opinion that even if he did respond, he should be hammered. I'd just prefer him to get his final thoughts and insights together first if he's town. (Not so much as scum. Too much intentional WIFOM when near a lynch.)

[mastin2]

Dang it, I realize I should be working more on this game, consulting my Notes, doing something, addressing Ald, anything, but, well...

...THERE'S LITERALLY NOTHING TOWN IN THAT POST.

There's no town-motivation. There's hypocrisy. There's strawmanning. There's fluff. There's bandwagoning. There's parroting. There's no original thoughts. There's no pro-town Tone. There's no pro-town Moves, nothing in there which looks like it is Town-Motivated. There's nothing in there which looks like town interaction. It's all one pile of Scum-Trying-To-Create-WIFOM-Pre-Death-type interactions.

[mastin2]

Yes. Ald's post. I'm literally at a loss of words.

Ald is the old Mastin.

No, seriously.

Ald is playing. Exactly like I did. When we played together, and I was scum.

[mastin2]

You'll note I've been Defending against an alex-lynch recently, yes?

[mastin2]

I'll get around to why Ald's scum. Not just that post. A legitimate, full-blown case. Theoretical deadline is in three days, but we actually have until *Replacement's Time Coming in +2-3 days* to get a lynch, so I should have the time, if I don't slack off.

But for starters?

Ald's not going to claim until he's kept at L-1 and someone threatens to hammer. Make it happen, now. LOCK HIM INTO A CLAIM HE CAN'T BACK OUT OF. Put the pressure on him. DON'T GIVE HIM THE TIME TO THINK OF A FAKECLAIM. If he's scum, MAKE HIM CLAIM BEFORE HE HAS THE DETAILS WORKED OUT--the flaws in his claim will nail him as scum.

Alduskkel 5 (L-1) Mastin2, Twistedspoon, Darth Yoshi, Wiredalexv, Captain Corporal,
^We need all of those votes on him, AND TO STAY THERE, with someone else saying they will hammer Ald without a claim.

DON'T YOU

DARE

LET HIM GET AWAY!

[mastin2]

Also. I'll continue Protecting Jily, CC, Alex, Elsa, AND TWIE from lynches, since they're ALL town.

Yes, really.

No, we're not going to policy lynch town.
No, we're not going to lynch obvious easy mislynches.
No, we're not going to let the scum get away.

Ald is scum. I had always been leaning that way, but I wasn't sure until his catchup post. And Soben's scum with him. I also wasn't sure about that, until two things convinced me of it:
-I had always had a town-read on Iron, and my town-read on Alex was beginning to grow. It has since been completely solidified, and now I'm sure. I have the confidence I should have had ages ago on this matter.
-Soben's 1204. Particularly, the second paragraph. Related to Ald being scum, Soben points out a great deal which is condemning towards Ald...and yet, doesn't show support for a lynch on Ald. (Calling it a quicklynch when we're 3 days from the original deadline? HOW ON EARTH DOES THAT FIT ANY DEFINITION OF QUICK?!?)

I know.
I know.

It looks crazy.

You all think Soben is obv-town.

But Ald's wall contained a line which read as a weak bus towards Soben, addressing Twisted's belief and saying, "you're holding onto this too much", essentially.

I know.

I'll likely need to write a case for Soben being scum. (...After the Ald one. Prioritizing, prioritizing...)

But I'm sure of it, now.

The Scumteam for Mini 1180 is WormyKrew, Alduskkel, and Soben

.

[mastin2]

Will do. But this needs addressing:

Lets say the mod walked into the room right now and stated that Ald and myself were confirmed town, what would your reads then be, this is a serious question.

DarthYoshi instead of Ald. Debating in my head between {Iron, Alex, TwistedSpoon} as to who it'd be instead of you.

But this is all moot, since I'm not wrong.

Not on this.

Yoshi's now confirmed town, as far as I'm concerned. So too is Iron. And Twistedspoon. And all the names I mentioned before.

I'm not wrong. I'm paying more attention to this game right now than is really healthy, because I know I need to step up and prove it.

I'm right; I've done my job that way.
I've stopped the Moronic Mislynches,
And have given you all the scumteam for this game.

Now to work on the part about being convincing.
Because, I swear.

If the town doesn't listen to me, they'll later wish they had.

(Signature references for the win! )

[mastin2]

There's only two scum in the game, Twisted. Well, two alive, anyway. Everyone else is town. And since I've nailed both of them, to me that means that everyone except those two are as far as I'm concerned quite frankly Confirmed Town.

That's why my Yoshi suspicion vanished--because for the first time since Day Two began, I have regained my confidence in my reads. I've gained Surgical Precision. It's that clear-

Cut

.

[mastin2]

The Scumteam for Mini 1180 is WormyKrew, Alduskkel, and

Soben

.

[mastin2]

How.
Many.
Times.
Must.
I.
Say.
That.
It.
Isn't.
Just.
Because.
Soben.
Didn't.
Get.
Targeted?!?

That's what STARTED the suspicion. That is not the WHOLE suspicion.

[mastin2]

DANG IT. STOP. STRAWMANNING. ME.

First off, happy scumday, mod.

Second off, This extremely offensive Tone is pure scum.

Third off,

@Mastin, I understand the idea of being paranoid of players who appear obv-town to lots of players.

THIS IS NOT THE SUSPICION. It's not that you're "too town to be town". It's not "Why wasn't Soben targeted last night?" (That one's what started the suspicion, NOT THE MAIN DRIVING FORCE OF IT.)

It's that I see from you, legitimately scummy moves, dropping scumtells right and left, posting exactly as I'd expect scum to do, interacting with my scum suspect(s--this applies to yesterday as well) in a condemning way...

You're scum because you've done scummy things, because of Process of Elimination, because of condemning interactions, because of scum Motive, because of scum Tone, because of...

...Everything.

I haven't written the case, but that'll come game-tomorrow. Game-today, I have an Ald case to worry about. But just because I can't briefly explain effectively to the town the reasons why you're scum, doesn't mean that they're limited to the weak ones you've been saying and I've (MULTIPLE TIMES!) said to not be the basis for the case.

is it because you think we are scum or you are scared of the potential influence we have if we are scum?

After the suspicion I've given towards you, Soben, I quite frankly don't think you'd be able to win this game as scum even if I died. I fear not your influence, since (quite frankly) the longer you live, the less it'll be.

No, I think you're scum.

It's frustrating to see the town not understand why you are, but it'll come. It's only a matter of time before their obv-town read on you vanishes, as did mine at the start of day two. I would of course prefer to speed things along and make it happen tomorrow, rather than, say, 3P lylo.

The case will come, after I finish the one on Ald.
The scum won't win this game, Soben. It's my job to stop you from killing the town.

[mastin2]

Let me also briefly run down why it's not just that I think Ald/Soben are the living scum.

Spoiler: Easier To Explain

1. wierdalexv <--The multiple town-Motivated posts Alex has been making, the lack of condemning interactions with scum, general Town Tone, town-slips, etc.
5. jilynne1991 <--Meta, claim, favorable interactions with scum, definite town tone, shows a consistent town Motive (albeit somewhat lazy), etc.
7. DarthYoshi <--Mutually exclusive with Ald, favorable interactions with scum, slightly-meta, town Motivation showing through, and I'm beginning to see town Tone as well from Yoshi. Among the long list.
10. Ironhead <--Lack of condemning interactions with scum, extremely FAVORABLE interactions with scum, general town meta, town Motive painfully obvious, bleeding off a Town Tone, etc.

Spoiler: These Are A Bit Harder...

3. Elsa von Spielburg <--Looking at her ISO, Elsa pushed WormyKrew as scum quite a bit. Favorable interactions. Her general attitude has seemed like town, her moves seem to come from town. She gives off a Town Tone in her posts, and she has consistently shown herself to have a town mindset. Interactions with Ald look overall pretty good, too. There's literally nothing scummy in her. She's town. There's also the whole "WormyKrew wanting Elsa vigged" thing.
4. Gerhard Krause Captain Corporal
6. TheWayItEnds
8. monk Brokenscraps Twistedspoon

/Taking a break to eat.
I'll post this now and make another post with a rundown of why the other three are town, too.

[mastin2]

Heh. I'd love to see the scum try and NK Soben.
Would absolutely love it.

But it can't happen, can it?

I'd also love to see them keep me alive, too. Because the longer I'm kept alive, the more dangerous I am. The more likely I am to screw them over. (My play is kinda quadratic--it starts out average-to-good, and takes a slow dive in the middle of the game...but after hitting the bottom, it begins to go back up, and continues to increase every day at a rate the scum can't keep up with. Most players' growth in a game-->Linear. Mine-->Quadratic. )

/Still working, for the record. Bit preoccupied, admittedly, but nothing I can't handle.

[mastin2]

Predictable.

Disappointing, but not really that surprising.

"...You...saw her replacing out?"

Yeah, 'course I did, eventually. I knew it'd happen sooner or later because I know that type of person. Since I WAS that type of person... It's something which sucks, and I wish Jily could come back (not only because I actually see talent in her, but also because we're having trouble finding so much as ONE replacement... ), but hey. Life happens.

If we're lucky, Jily will come back in a year or two, older and wiser, remember how much of a VI she was percieved to be, both laugh and cry about it, and then become the awesome scumhunter she should be.

(Lots of players who are good were once VIs. I might be the most [in]famous example, but far from the only one.)


Scumhunter, don't get me wrong. I think you're a great player. You're playing amazingly regardless of your alignment.

I just quite frankly can't see you as anything but scum right now. You've seemingly purposefully tried to induce a little bit of hydra-schizo, while simultaneously pulling a move which is exactly the same Tone as your hydra buddy. You can't have the best of both worlds, my friend.

Will finish the summary (I've got three more names to prove as town--and these three are more vital than any of the others), and then work on the Ald case.

[mastin2]

Not scumdriven at all.

NOT EFFING SCUMDRIVEN AT ALL DESPITE FORMING IN LESS THAN TWELVE HOURS.

RIGHT.

TOTALLY

NOT SCUMDRIVEN.

Ald wagon built slowly. And stubbornly. Throughout the day. And has fallen apart. MULTIPLE TIMES. LIKE IT DID

JUST NOW

.

Let me tell you something about the speed of a wagon. It's not a rock-solid rule, but it's a generally good rule-of-thumb:

THE HARDER IT IS TO GET A LYNCH WAGON ON SOMEONE,

THE MORE LIKELY THEY ARE SCUM

. (As in, a lynch wagon which has great support from the playerlist, has gotten close to getting through multiple times, and fails every single one of them.)

The inverse is also true.

THE FASTER A WAGON GOES THROUGH ON SOMEONE (barring investigation role results--and sometimes even then), THE MORE LIKELY IT IS TO BE A MISLYNCH.

Seriously.

I.

CanNOT.

BELIEVE.

THIS.
IS.
HAPPENING.

You guys.

JUST LET ALD GET AWAY WITHOUT A SCRATCH. He's surviving, HE'S ESCAPED ATTENTION,

exactly

what I had warned you he would do.
The attention has been shifted from Ald (scum) onto Captain. (TOWN TOWN TOWN TOWN, OH SO VERY TOWN!)

And do you know who the primary driving force of this switch is?

Soben

.

[mastin2]

And here I thought that the person I most needed to Defend was TWIE, that Captain would be in the middle. (And obviously, Twisted would be at the bottom of the priority list--it's hard to explain why Twisted's town, but mostly everyone sees him as town, anyway. The other two...)

APPARENTLY NOT.

[mastin2]

Gerhard. Let's start with him.
He begins his game voting WormyKrew. As an RVS, but still. Does that look like a bus in the RVS to you?

Not to me.

He then immediately engages in legitimate scumhunting. He goes after Alex and locks onto Alex as scum immediately. This is not scum taking advantage of a weaker player. This is town, legitimately seeing something which looked scummy and pursuing it.

Gerhard also commits a town-tell, by voting Jily after her claim. He thought she was scum, and didn't notice her claim. It's a minor tell, which you'd think would be null, but scum tend to read the thread closer and would instantly have noticed the claim, compared to town, who frequently miss details like that. It's also something you can't fake that well.

For my replacement's benefit, I believe that Iron Head is the most likely to be scum. His language is carefully tailored, which is fine. However, he is hiding behind it to avoid the arguments that he should be having. Secret pac man made a point that he was appealing to logic. Perhaps his wording was not strictly correct, however the context and meaning were plain. Ironhead refuses to give merit to anything that is not perfectly logically structured, which gives him a myriad of excuses to avoid nearly anything. It's like a corporation bogging you down in paper work so that a trial can't progress and you don't get your damages. Ironhead side tracked the argument so that he could yell at secret pac man for not having his Debate lingo spot on rather than actually have to answer to the presumed scum tell.

There's also this. He went after Ironhead, a wagon which was beginning to die (same as the Jily wagon), and thought the player was legitimately scummy, bringing up a lot of unique points which are obviously not faked.

There's also the fact that despite replacing out, he still put the work into the game and wanted to leave with the best he could give.

Additionally,

Secondly, I'm not crazy about Mastin, and my gut tells me he is scum.

I had defended Gerhard as town at the time, and he had a scumread on me. WHAT KIND OF SCUM CALLS THEIR DEFENDER SCUM? That's a signature (paranoid) town-move, extremely hard to fake.

It would involve language construction, his pattern of planning, and the way he outlines his suspects in advance, in case anyone wants to look into those things.

And he uses my own tells (Tone, Motive, a little bit of Interaction) against me. I realize this doesn't seem significant and it probably was not intentional--but the fact that he used those three tells, against me, means that he was really scumhunting. Since (quite frankly) I can't fake seeing those tells in another. That scumhunting method is completely honest, truthful, and unbiased. Scum can't fake it, scum have trouble using it effectively. It's a signature town move.


Additionally, let's review my tells in this short little while.
Motive--extremely town. Gerhard might not have been the best player, but he's definitely town-motivated in his posts.
Tone--one of the towniest tones I've ever seen, quite frankly.
Interactions--favorable for WormyKrew; that did not read as a bus.


AND THIS IS JUST FOR THE PREDECESSOR'S FIVE POSTS.

Captain gets a separate post in his defense.

[mastin2]

Enters with scumhunting, Jily as town.

He trusts in his predecessor's reads. This is a personal town-tell of mine. A signature scum move is to go completely against your (scummy) predecessor's views and take up an entirely new stance to (hopefully) become more favorable.

A TOWN signature is to trust entirely in your predecessor and acknowledge their wisdom. This is especially important if the predecessor was extremely scummy. By embracing the reads of the scummy player, the person is essentially saying, "my predecessor wasn't scummy by thinking this". In other words, they're not trying to get a Fresh Start which many towns freely give to replacements.

It's a subconscious thing. But I've personally done this. As town, I very frequently look at the reads of my predecessor, and value them. I look into them and see why they thought that. While I'll use my own judgement on them to determine if they're right or not, I put significant weight on them.

And as scum, I just carelessly toss them aside and go, "screw that, I'm working for myself", building a new image for me.

I've observed it in others as well. I see pro-town players frequently employ the logic of their predecessors, and sum players just ignore their predecessor and ask the town to do the same. It might not be something we actively decide to do, but it happens.

A lot. It's psychological. Not something you're aware of, but something which always happens whether you were thinking about it or not. And that's why it's nearly impossible to fake.


He also used gut. His inability to effectively explain it reads as genuine. Trust me, as someone who has explanation problems, I can tell very well from situations like that if they're faking being unable to effectively explain it, or if they legitimately can't give a good answer.

There's also favorable interactions with WormyKrew. And the fact that he was legitimately scumhunting on Secret. Look at Captain's early posts, and you'll realize he was pushing Secret as scum--something which could only have come from a pro-town player reading Secret as scum.

Captain shows paranoia, thinking about the night-kill, fearing he gave the scum too much information.

Scum don't do that. They don't show paranoia towards giving out town-reads, because they're scum. They don't gain anything by trying to hide town-reads. They lose nothing by posting them. Town (theoretically) does.

Additionally, there's the fact that if you look at Captain's reads, he had Secret as solidly scum.

WHY WOULD THE SCUM NK SOMEONE ONE OF THEIR MEMBERS HEAVILY WAS PUSHING AS SCUM?!??

("...More experienced players talked them out of it?"
Well, that's more evidence against

Ald,

Soben

, and maybe

Yoshi

as well, then. 'Cause guess what?
TWIE, Elsa, Jily, they're all inexperienced. And therefore could not be scum with Captain in this situation.)

This is an example of an assertive, "SCREW YOU" tone. There's Scum "SCREW YOU!" (Soben displays this to me), and there's town "SCEW YOU!". This is definitely the latter.

The fact that Captain was stubbornly refusing to vote was also town--he was thinking for himself, trying to figure out what to do, rather than (as scum would do) placing a vote blindly at request.

Do you think scum would so heavily use Chainsaw Defense, after pointing out a percieved Chainsaw?

Quick answer, No.
Captain also furthered his Secret suspicion, and was (in my opinion) legitimately convinced that WormyKrew was town, due to the interactions between the two Hydras.

Opinions like this, a stubborn scumread on Elsa which refused to die, makes Captain even more town.

There was no point in saying this as scum. Contrary to popular belief, scum do not say obvious stuff like that, anymore. This was a town-reaction. Followed up with a decent conclusion, and more legitimate scumhunting from Captain.


A tl;dr version?

Captain has consistently been tripping town-tells across the board, has been showing a consistent town Motivation in his posts, has been bleeding off a town Tone, and his interactions are overall fairly favorable.

HE IS NOT THE LYNCH TODAY.

[mastin2]

I just had a realization:

The Ald lynch is the WormyKrew lynch, all over again.

The WormyKrew lynch was building up slowly throughout the day. It was a natural wagon, because it was on scum.

Then, it fell apart. TWIE was quickwagoned, up to L-1, I believe. I pushed. Hard. Against TWIE being lynched. Others did, too.

But WormyKrew wasn't lynched because we were convincing. WormyKrew was lynched because of deadline, and enough people refused to go onto TWIE that a TWIE wagon couldn't happen.

This right now?

Same exact thing.

An Ald wagon has been slowly building throughout the day. Completely naturally, as it's on scum. But then, it fell apart. And Captain got Speed-Wagoned up to L-1 in less than twelve hours. I'm pushing. Hard. Against that lynch.

And deadline is supposed to be close.

There shouldn't be enough support on Captain for a lynch. It just shouldn't happen, at all. And to ensure Day Two doesn't end with a No Lynch, guess who should be lynched?

Ald.

I'd prefer, of course, that Ald die before deadline, but still.

The resemblance is scarily close.

(Oh, and in both instances, the counter-wagon is on obv-town. TWIE and Captain.)

[mastin2]

^ The above post from CC is not a townish post. Note how he casts vague suspicions on his wagon without actually saying who he suspects or why, and feels the need to emphasize the HONESTY of his thinking that WK was town. Town are much more likely to offer specifics and particulars when their back is against the wall, knowing they have nothing to lose by telling the truth. CC basically just says "lookit my wagon" with no real suspect analysis.

I'm amazed that this wagon fell apart so quickly on the basis mostly of Mastin's reaction to it.

Yoshi, you're town.

I get that now.

I see it in my mind, how this post comes from town.

But dang, is it wrong-town.

The wagon fell apart quickly not because of what I said--but because it was a wagon which formed quickly in the first place. A quickwagon will fall apart equally as quickly with so much as a single voice of reason objecting to it.

Quite frankly, it would've been suspicious for Captain to single out a single player on his wagon, in my opinion, because--quite frankly--that's not what town does when they're close to being lynched. I'm dead-tired right now, so I'm having trouble explaining it in rational terms, but...well, it's true.

I know, it's another thing which doesn't look like it makes sense. But it is the case, here.

Captain's town. I'll Protect him until the scum have the guts to kill me.

[mastin2]

...Huh?
Are you BV, or do you know BV? :/

(Also,

V/LA 7/16-7/22

. Won't stop me from playing; got plenty of access. It's just it'll be a minor inconvenience with a few hiccups here and there. )

[mastin2]

...Oh, sure.

Choosing the day I go V/LA to respond. (I know, it's almost certainly coincidence, but that doesn't mean it doesn't irk me.)

And in a manner identical to your last catchup post, too, Ald.

Honestly, I could quote my response to your last post and say it contains pretty much the exact same things. In addition to that, there's now condemning interactions with Soben, flailing, fail-logic, active lurking (in the form that a lot of the wall which looks like constructive input...really isn't. At all.), you get the idea.

Just the tip of the iceberg is that he assumes there's no backup plan if one of my scumreads flips scum. (Yoshi if he flips town, {Iron, Alex, Twisted} if Soben were to flip town. But a helpful hint: neither will. I answered this before when Soben asked it of me, but Ald didn't address that.) I could quote any number of things which're wrong with it, too, if I had the time.

(Leaving today, and all that.
Unfortunate as that may be.)

[mastin2]

It's only tunneling if I'm wrong.

[mastin2]

Soben, you should realize I can't view images, here.

Too dang slow. I once tried to watch a half-hour youtube video on this connection. Six hours later, it was only half loaded.

That said, I'm here, now. I'll resume with the Ald Case--got literally nothing else to do except be on mafiascum.net.

[mastin2]

First off. To make things more manageable, I'll be posting the case in ten-page incriments.

For the first part of my case, I'd encourage you to read my old case. On Ald, it only has three lines, but it's worth checking out so I don't have to repeat myself. (To sum it up for those too lazy to check, Tone of his first post, combined with a then-reasonless vote and VCA on page four.) That's as far as I got back then. There's really not much to say about Ald on the early pages, because quite frankly, he wasn't around that much for them.
...Wait, did I say, "early pages"?

Let's amend that statement.

There's not that much (per page) to say about Ald for pretty much the entire game, because (quite frankly) he hasn't been around for almost the entire game. (Lurking, and when he comes in, it's active lurking. His lurking is self-evident. His active-lurking, well, just wait for the case to be finished.)

wierdalexv 2 Gerhard Krause, Darth Yoshi
jilynne1991 3 (L-4) TheWayItEnds, Wiredalexv, WormyKrew
DarthYoshi 2 Alduskkel, Monk
monk 1 Elsa Von Spielburg
Ironhead 1

Secret Project

Not Voting: splitfarvie,

jilynne1991

,

flinter

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

For the record? I'd expect zero scum to be on (1) wagons at this point. I'd expect one scum on each (3) wagon. WormyKrew takes care of the scum on Jily. (By Proxy, this clears TWIE and Alex.) That leaves split as the scum in not voting, unless you're going for the insane Jily-scum idea. (No. Just No. If you want evidence? Look at how hard WormyKrew was pushing Jily as scum in the rage of pages 4-6. That was NOT bussing, people.) What of the (2) wagons? Combine them and you get a single four wagon. Gerhard/Captain is among those names, sure (another anti-Gerhard/Captain-as-scum is the top of this post, which does not read as scum-scum interactions), as is Yoshi and monk/broken/Twisted. But there's a far more vital name in there, and its presence clears all three others:

Alduskkel.

Side-note for the Soben case, On a re-read, This reads as VERY obvious bussing. (Alex also should get town-points for being the first to point this out. monk/Twisted gets some too.) (Split also fencesat and active lurked.)


Ald's next post is four pages later, post 160.

I just voted you because you confirmed first. Pretty RVS, but it would have been a weak scumtell if you had said you preferred to play as scum.

Simply false: as I said before, if DarthYoshi had claimed to prefer playing as scum then him being the first to confirm would have been scummy.

Now, he hadn't answered my RQ yet, but I figured I'd rather vote someone who might have turned out to have committed a scum tell than Random Guy McPerson.

These are not the same thing. "I voted Yoshi for being the first to confirm. It woulda been a scumtell had you said you preferred to play as scum." That part in both of them is fine. It is the same. The contradiction in here comes from what isn't there. "Pretty RVS". Does not translate to "rather vote someone who might have committed a scumtell rather than Random".

See the contradiction? I do.

160 additionally contains some suspicious interactions with WormyKrew, in the form of Ald's "Hardly".

@Secret Project 104 (not quoting the whole thing): Don't you think it's more likely that Ironhead's posting style change is due to our shift from the goofy RVS/RQS stage to serious mafia business time?

Call it parroting, call it fluff, call it active lurking, call it whatever. This was not new insight, but it was passed off as an attempt to look that way. People had already essentially addressed this as early as Split's post.

Overall jilynne seriously tells newbtown. And her answer to the RQS regarding experience backs that up (6 ongoing, none finished).

Ironhead... doesn't seem to understand the case against him. Secret Project is accusing you of shifting over to more refined/sophisticated posting to seem more pro-town. He calls it "Appeal to Logic" which is a terrible name in my opinion.

Reading this out of context, it looks like great scumhunting, right? Like it contains valuable insight into the game?

Well, sorry to inform you, there's nothing in there which hadn't been said before. From Jily Newbtown to Ironhead. It also contains a bit of hypocrisy, as guess what Ald quotes immediately after that? A post by Ironhead, which he responds to with

This reads as OMGUS to me. Obviously when Secret Project asked if everyone was scum in the game, he was using hyperbole, regardless of his alignment. You're nitpicking grammar and basing a vote off of that and the fact that you think that he thinks you're scummy for being logical. This is not the case.

...Casting weak suspicion towards Ironhead.

161 is also fluff, and more than that, it should have invalidated his vote right then and there if he doubted Gerhard was reading the thread. He didn't unvote then, however, and kept it on.

@Alduskkel: You see Gerhard's derp vote on Jily as a scumtell and not a town tell, why?

That says it better than I ever could.

And now. For the best part ever.

READ POST!!!

Town-
DarthYoshi

Jilynne1991

Alduskkel

Secretproject

Null-
Elsa
Thewayitends
Monk

Flinter

Scum-
Splitfarvle (mainly for a complete lack of goodposting at all. His iso smacks of active lurking)
Weirdalex (I personally had him at null until he was questioned by darthyoshi about his vote on jily. Bad defense is bad.)
Gerhard (super, super scummy post and not helping the town at all)
Ironhead (our vote)

Let me ask you all this: does anyone here disagree with WormyKrew having put one scumbuddy in the town section, and one scumbuddy in the scum section? (Split/Scumhunter/Soben and Gerhard/Captain are both in the scum section.)

It's worthy noting that pretty much all of WormyKrew's suspects were extremely weak, and it REEKS of bussing in there. But what stinks even more is the town-list. Ald had posted pretty much nothing of content at that time--how the heck did WormyKrew get a town-read on Ald? Quite frankly, I do believe WormyKrew just stereotypically followed the "one buddy scum, one buddy town" tactic. This makes all of the Null names town, all of the Town names minus Ald as town, and one of the Scum names as actual scum (Split/Soben), with the others being town. It's almost certainly not Ironhead; those interactions do not look like bussing at ALL. It's VERY doubtfully Alex.
Leaving {Gerhard/Captain, Split/Soben} as containing one scum. You're mislynching Captain, but in doing so, you'll be condemning Soben to death, finally, along with Ald.

Yoshi/Ald containing one scum is pretty much a guarantee. This post where both Yoshi and Ald are mysteriously on the town-list for no apparent reason, kinda solidifies that as one reason among many. And WormyKrew's interactions with DarthYoshi do not give off the scum interacting with scum vibe. (Quite the opposite.) WormyKrew's interactions with Ald suggest...
...
. . .

......WHAT interactions with Ald? (...Yeah.)

wierdalexv 2 Darth Yoshi, TheWayItEnds
Gerhard Krause 2 Alduskkel, Elsa Von Spielburg
jilynne1991 1 Gerhard Krause
DarthYoshi 2 Alduskkel, Monk
Secret Project 1 Ironhead
Ironhead 2

Secret Project

, WormyKrew
WormyKrew 1 splitfarvie,

Not Voting: jilynne1991,

flinter

, Wiredalexv

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

L+1 on the four (2) wagons means two scum there. One is WormyKrew. The other is Alduskkel.
There's also enough (1) wagons to make me believe one scum is in there. Aaaaaaand...
Once again, the two key figures in there are Gerhard and Split. (The third is Ironhead. Nope, not scum there.)

And that's ten. 11-20 or so is next.

[mastin2]

Ald's next post is 251.

If you're not reading the thread before making a response, you obviously don't care about getting the full information available about your case and vote. Scum, as people not truly interested in catching scum, are more likely to do this.

This is the polar opposite of the truth, and Ald of all people should know this. It's backwards--the people less interested in reading the thread aren't scum. They're town, who're bored. AKA, VTs. (Which fits perfectly with Captain's roleclaim--the slot was playing like a VT. As Secret pointed out, this applied to Captain just as much as Gerhard.) See also: Jily, a perfect example. She wasn't lying when she said she is more interested in the games where she's scum. And if you doubt that's enough, you can also look into me, and realize that this was close to MY belief as well. I put more attention into interesting games. And while if I was under heavy pressure (AKA, close to being lynched), a town-game would be interesting to me, quite frankly, the scum games held my interest a lot more frequently.

It's a frequent town-tell.

??? I can scumhunt and AtE at the same time. I could just build up a decent case but also appeal to emotions (possibly separately).

This was both 1: unnecessary, and 2: condemning interactions with WormyKrew.

Oh god, Newbie 748. What wallful nightmare.

This is another instance of Ald hypocrisy--guess who's been consistently wallposting recently? (Okay, multiple people. But he's among them, and one of the worst.)

[quote"In response to 'if that makes sense', Ald"]No, it doesn't.[/quote] Tone. Exact wording. As town, he would have asked me to clarify. "This isn't making sense--could you re-word it?" or something like that. Instead, he simply flat-out says, "it doesn't". Essentially, flat-out saying, "you're wrong". Not in a town tone, at all. (Town Tone in this case would be saying "Mastin, to be blunt, you're wrong", or something like that. More to the point. Instead, Ald took the subtle approach to say the same thing, AKA, the scum way of discretely discrediting me.)

Secret's issue with Ald here is also quite valid. (Another reason why Secret likely died...)

wierdalexv 2 TheWayItEnds,

Secret Project

,
Captain Corporal 2 Alduskkel, Elsa Von Spielburg
jilynne1991 1 Captain Corporal
Secret Project 1 Ironhead
Ironhead 2 WormyKrew, Monk
WormyKrew 3 (L-4) splitfarvie, Darth Yoshi,

Mastin2

Not Voting: jilynne1991, Wiredalexv

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

Once more, that's L+1 on the (2) wagons. So once more, there's two scum in there. One of them is WormyKrew, obviously. The other is Ald. (Side-note: with only two (1) wagons, this makes it doubtful that the people there are scum--meaning Captain's far more likely to be town. In other words, that the last scum is likely on WormyKrew at this point.

With regards to the second, I was merely preempting any OMGUS accusations.

I can't find the words to describe just how wrong this statement is. Trying to get rid of OMGUS accusations? When that also implies a (weak) Mastin suspicion never followed up on? When only scum would be worried about being called out on OMGUS'ing in this manner? I dunno, it's. just. so. wrong.

Probably unnecessary, but I figured I'd clear it out of the way without having to possibly waste time on it in the future.

Then why waste the time on it at all, in the present? (Well, past. But then-present.) Wasted time then is the same as wasted time later, with one difference: scum wasting the time earlier reads as overdefensiveness.

(Note to myself: Still waiting for answers to questions in my previous post from DarthYoshi and WormyKrew.)

This is either pointless, or says weak suspicion on both players. Take your pick; either's bad, but it has to be one of them.

Why is this important? Particularly in the case of the latter,

WormyKrew wagon is BS with basically no decent reasoning from anyone except DarthYoshi. I'd say that everyone but DY has to explain their reasoning in their next post.

This would be blatant hypocrisy. Additionally, it is about as blatant as a WormyKrew defense can get.

By the way, I may be in the minority here but I vastly prefer wall-poster-Mastin to doesn't-explain-his-reads-Mastin.

TBH this game feels a little dead ATM. Need more posters other than Ironhead, Mastin, Secret Project, and jilynne. splitfarvle is especially missing, and our mod really needs to prod him if that hasn't already been done. It's been over four days now, more than a little ridiculous.

This is all pointless statements. Except for the last two sentences. Those are important. Take a wild guess as to why. (Hint: it's related to who replaced Split and who my Top Two Scumreads are. )

This post also reeks of BS.

It's also the classic scum excuse. "I'm having trouble because *insertnamehere* is posting too much." is one of the oldest Scum Tricks in the book.

This is important. Secret calls Gerhard/Captain-WormyKrew as an impossible scumteam.

This was also a scum post. Pointless, not scumhunting, degrading my play, trying to weaken my read, casting weak suspicion towards me...I lack the proper words for the exact reason, but those can give you a general idea of just how much scum is in Ald's posting.

Pointless fluff which gives the illusion of being constructive.

Also not constructive.

(...I'm probably going to stop at 20. I'm beginning to lose my ability to explain these things in more detail. AKA, I'm starting to get tired and slightly incoherent.)

1. I don't like what mastin is doing. He just comes in and takes charge. Please, get us that evidence you keep promising us. I will not follow you unless you build a proper case, and neither should anybody else.

While this applies to WormyKrew (in that I was pushing a WormyKrew lynch), it also applies to Ald, because Ald was my second pick, a pick I was also pushing quite hard at the time.

(For the record, alex continues to be town here with the Split point, and a semi-followup here.)

wierdalexv 1 TheWayItEnds,
Gerhard Krause 2 Alduskkel, Elsa Von Spielburg
Secret Project 2 Ironhead, Captain Corporal
Ironhead 2 WormyKrew, Monk
WormyKrew 4 (L-3) splitfarvie, Darth Yoshi, Mastin2, jilynne1991,
Not Voting: Wiredalexv, Secret Project

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

For the record, it's still L+1 on the (2) wagons, which means it's still two scum there. And it's the same two, WormyKrew and Alex. Which means that the remaining scum is off, and therefore can't be Captain (who's on one of the 2s), and therefore is Split, weakly bussing WormyKrew.

Note, Secret thought Captain was town. I know as scum, I don't kill people calling me town except for intentional WIFOM. ("Secret thought I was town and died!" That kind of thing.)

(Side-note. Must. Resist. Urge. To. Point. Out. Scumhunter's. Scum. Posts. They can wait.)

Obv-bussing is obv. WormyKrew, and a scum-lean on Ald.

Also for the record,

Each player needs to be judged on whether their own playing style is sincere.

I find this quite ironic, in that I've used this piece of advice to nail WormyKrew, Ald, and now Soben as well. (You'll be seeing more on Scumhunter's posts in the Soben case. Needless to say, Scumhunter is not the town player I used to think he was.)

I know, only 25-30% serious, but 25-30% serious is more than enough to get scum paranoid... (This is also accurate, and you'll be seeing a lot more on Scumhunter's post later.)

Obvious scum play. Unvoting WormyKrew (right when the momentum on WormyKrew was beginning to build, AND after stating WormyKrew was a strong scumread), plus wanting to interrogate Ald in a list of three names?
...Yeah, Elsa/TWIE are confirmed town from that alone, due to the "buddy and two townies" tell. Additionally, this is a lot of Ald suspicion which is not followed through on.

[5] WormyKrew ~

Scumhunter

, Darth Yoshi, Mastin2, jilynne1991, Secret Project, Ironhead [L-2]

Scumhunter's vote remaining woulda left WormyKrew at L-1 pages before it ended up actually happening...

[2] Gerhard Krause ~ Alduskkel, Elsa Von Spielburg [L-5]
[2] Secret Project ~ Captain Corporal, WormyKrew [L-5]
(Not listed--2 unvoting: alex and Scumhunter)

At this stage in the game, it wouldn't surprise me to see one scum on each of these.

I still feel like

monk and

Alduskkel are doing a good job of sliding under peoples' radar.

This was also valid.

Not Voting: Wiredalexv, Scumhunter, Captain Corporal, Elsa Von Spielburg

Four people suddenly unvoting? Totally no scum in there! (Hint: not Alex, Not Elsa, and extremely doubtfully Captain. Guess who?)

[mastin2]

/Sleep.

Sorry. I need it.

[mastin2]

Ironhead: Tell me why you think my assumptions are wrong. Many of them are backed by common sense and overall good reasoning. For instance, I'm pretty much a master of VCA, so if you have issues with how I do it, I'm willing to explain exactly why I made those (perfectly valid, as they're true and make sense when you see the logic behind them) assumptions. As Alex pointed out, my reasoning for the "one scum in town, one scum in the scum" section which you have issue with, is actually one of the things I backed up the most. Yet you disagree with it, and I don't see a reason why.

I'm horrible with explaining my reasons, but you don't strike me as that type, so if you have an issue, then you of all people should be able to elaborate.

Soben's post I'm quite frankly ignoring. Skimmed it, saw nothing which I felt I needed to address, seeing as Soben's a scum-read of mine and it'd be a waste of time trying to convince my scum-read that they're scum.

can we just lynch ald?

He's the common denominator here

^Pretty much that. There's only a couple players who have voiced objection. One of them is Ironhead. Ald is obviously the other. Soben (scumbuddy for a reason!) has shown exactly why Ald could be scum. (In other words, IF Soben were town, they'd be willing to lynch Ald as well.) Twisted obviously is willing to lynch Ald. Alex looks like he is. I most certainly am willing. I get the distinct impression that Yoshi would as well (despite preferring the CC lynch, apparently). Captain would, too, for obvious reasons. That's at least six.

Ald has enough support for a lynch. It should happen.

And, let me put it to you this way:

I would only vote Ald to avoid a no-lynch.

I'd rather no-lynch than lynch Captain. He will NOT be getting my vote. Not today, not ever. Quite frankly, if a cop claimed guilty on Captain, I'd lynch the cop-claim rather than Captain.

You that opposed to an Ald lynch? Since that's how opposed I am to a Captain Lynch.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Mostly Not Ald Stuff

Town Reads:
Captain Corporal:His predecessors actions before replacing out read as a geninue attempt at scumhunting and leaving information for his partner, Captains disagreement with his predecessors reads is something that mafia generally would avoid doing, as is openely asking for players reads and thoughts on their slot.

Secret Project:The strength and aggression they showed about their reads earlier in the day reads as a geninue belief that they're correct. Their reaction to Jils claim and their actions following it is something I have massive trouble seeing them do as scum.

Wormy Krew: I'm not seeing the case against them. The slip is semantics and is being pushed to the point where it's becoming a joke. Their hydra disagreements read as legitimate and there are many alternate places where they would place their vote as scum in this position. Their play also shows no ressemblance to Sleepys scum game, I suggest reading through Newbie 1098 to notice the massive differences in his play. I do dislike the fact that they have quietened down recently and would like them to explain and move their vote.

^You know, stuff like this really shouldn't have fooled me before. It's stuff which looks like amazing content, brilliant, in fact. I definitely thought so at the time. But man. On a re-read, I realize just what a load of junk this actually was.

Alduskkel: I intensely dislike his lack of content in this game especially for someone as experienced as he is, though I'm unsure if I would consider the lack of content a scum-tell for him especially considering he openely stated he prefers to be scum, therefore would be more inclined to perform better as it.

^And stuff like this is why Soben's Ald's partner.

(There's also

Notably, he relies on meta to excuse the behaviors of WormyKrew, and to prosecute the cases for Elsa and Alex, but in MY case, he excuses the meta away instead. Can't have it both ways, mate.

^That.)

@Captain Corporal: top 3 scum reads please.

Once again, I'd like to point out to you how this is not scum interacting with scum.

Side-note, I find it hilarious just how many of these Soben displays.

I just realized something. Regfan/Soben has a townread on us, right? While we are indeed town, the reasoning is completely wrong. How can you use one game of meta on a HYDRA? And my first game, a Newbie game, at that? You've got to have some better logic than that.

Totally scum interaction with buddy.

This is mainly as a warmup for me. Anyway,

I never said I suspected anyone on the wagon. I just said it was BS. I've said it before, I'll say it again: wrong =/= scummy.

He had...no suspects...on a wagon that went to L-2...why? That kinda reminds me of a post in the "scumslip" thread buried somewhere in MD. Don't remember which it reminds me of off the top of my head, but needless to say, this is EXACTLY the attitude I'd expect from scum.

This continues when he later responds. Seriously, calling so many people on a single wagon, to be town? That means that 1:you're not leaving much room for scum off the wagon, and 2: means the wagon is far more likely to be on scum, which Ald's views did not reflect. 5/7 needed for a lynch-->Ald didn't suspect any of them-->Ald called all five of them essentially "not suspects"-->Ald said the wagon got that far without scum help-->Ald implies that therefore, the wagon is more likely to be on scum-->Ald doesn't follow through-->Ald is scum because of this, among many other reasons.

Makes sense to me.

The last part of Ald's 499 wall reads as blatant scum interaction.

*Must. Resist. Urge. To. Point. Out. Soben's. Scumminess. With. WormyKrew.*

I was promised an explanation of reads from Mastin. RAGE. Okay, not really, but that definitely warrants a virtual smack upside the head. Mastin it has been forever since you said you'd explain yourself, and I was willing to wait until the end of this weekend (like you wanted us to), but now it's just preposterous.

Next post. Explanation of reads. Or a damned good explanation on why you haven't posted them yet.

1: This is fluff. There is no content in this post. 2: This is parroting. These exact words had been spoken by multiple previous players. 3: Tone. This has that very distinct scum tone.

Turns out all I needed to get the old Mafia fire in me burning again was to reread this game and start making a wall.

This very well might've been a scumslip.

Though that's almost to be expected, since I think Mastin gets a lot of his wall-mode playstyle from me.

This is also slight hypocrisy with Ald's past self. If you want proof, look at my Main's Wiki, "Mastin". Paraphrased, a line in there says, "Ha, trying to pin the blame on the players of 688? No, Mastin, pretty sure you developed that by yourself."

Alduskkel’s #582: Your response to me was an overreaction or overcompensation, imo.

This is also a quite valid point against Ald.

Alduskkel is basically vote sitting on Captain Corporal at this stage as his initial reasons for voting are weak at this stage so if he is continuing to find that slot the scummiest/worthiest lynch he should update the reasons. Otherwise there is another vote that can move around.

As is this. Ald had a dead vote.

Ald hasn't offered legitimate content since last Thursday, and unlike Elsa, didn't actually declare V/LA. He has parked his vote on what started as the Gerhard Krause playslot and hasn't moved it once, which on D1 is a significant scumtell for me, because (1) it indicates both a lack of proactive scumhunting using your most powerful scumhunting weapon, (2) that he has placed it where he now knows the lynch likely won't occur, so he won't be on the wagon that will be subsequently scrutinized if the lynchee flips town, and (3, and perhaps most importantly), he voted the GK slot and then doesn't do much interacting with that slot as of late--I think town is much more apt to interact with the players they think are scum to try to get them to slip further; compartmentalizing your D1 interactions is very much scummy.

This is strengthened by the reality that Ald has completely abstained from the vig-vote discussion. I was V/LA and still managed to contribute to it in my very first post back.

This, completely valid, should not have been forgotten.

That's to 30.

Now things start to get fun.

[mastin2]

72 hours?

I can finish an Ald case in that time. Easy.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Brief Warmup

(Took a break, so I need something to get me back into rhythm.)

@Soben
Sorry, Krew is a bit busy in real life and ear is... where the hell IS ear?!

Scum interactions.

I don't think I can make this any more clear - I've provided a list of things that make me believe TWIE is mafia that DOESN'T involve meta or his level of activity which are the reasons you don't want to lynch him. Now can you at least respond to those?

1: reads as slight deflection away from WormyKrew. 2: trying to distract me from my cases at the time. 3: Gut. ("...That's all you can think of?" Yeah, sometimes, believe it or not, certain words which I don't have any logical reason to be suspicious of...still feel suspicious. And those incidents are, quite simply put, Gut. There's more in here to suspect than the deflection and distraction, but I don't know what. Hence, I have to say that it's Gut.)

1. I don't disagree that they buddied you however I fail to see that as a strong scum-tell. They didn't exactly contradict themselves in their vote of Ironhead, the reasoning for their inital unvote of him had to do with him providing reasonable content which isn't a town-tell.
2. See, here's the problem, you're essentially saying: He's mafia because he's mafia. Do you find it impossible that he could legitimatly suspect Alex as town?
3. Show links to this please.
4. How does his interactions with Iron make him mafia? Again you're doing the: He's mafia because he's mafia logic.
5. This is actually a decent point: Wormy - Why do you want Elsa vigged?
6. You yourself have only focused on 4-5 players so I'm unsure how you see that as a particular scum-tell however I would agree that lately they haven't been providing that much content.

Blatant WormyKrew defense, through and through.

I believe that's enough of a warm-up.

@Alduskkel, when you come back: Why have you been absent, and what is your response to DY's case on you?

I found these to be decent.

4: Sharp, lucid responses. He pressed Secret Project to answer an old question.

Scum reviving a dead, pointless topic which quite frankly wasn't that important.

He accurately called BS on WormyKrew's assertion that AtE and scum-hunting were mutually exclusive.

1: bussing, 2: that statement was still scummy.

He probed you on your announcement that you were reaction-fishing.

There is no town motivation to question someone who talks about Reaction Fishing. Seriously, I had a game which had a lengthy 5-or-so-page discussion about the subject. All participants were town, chasing the Red Herring.

He questioned mastin2 on an incoherent summation.

1: nothing new. Others had done that before. 2: I'm an easy target. Ald of all people knows this. 3: Context in here is also key, in that he used it to back up his dead read.

He pointed out a hole in Secret Project's logic.

A: trying to discredit town, B: which in the process would weaken their WormyKrew suspicion.

7: Continues to probe mastin2 and Secret Project. Dismisses a very weak suggestion from mastin2 with decent logic.

Refer to previous points, about revivial, discrediting, and easy targets.

13: Continues to probe several players with questions -- including you. His interaction with Soben seems genuine to me.

1: the probing was almost entirely worthless. 2: Probing in this case is null at BEST. 3: In this case, however, it gives a scum-lean, in that Ald was leaving open his options in this case--leaving open a chance to jump onto whoever, for pretty much whatever he wanted. 4: His interaction with Soben is one of the largest giveaways of the scumteam being WormyKrew-Ald-Soben.

Sometimes, you really do get a better case out of picking apart someone's defense of a player than you do by quoting an offense. (I probably never woulda thought of well over half of those points if not for Iron's defense.)

If you read the top of Ald's wall, it REEKS of bussing WormyKrew. (...But not following through.)

In it, Ald also pushes both WormyKrew and Secret. (Despite it being pretty common sense that the two of them were pretty much mutually exclusive alignments.)

109: As noted in 152 by SP, bandwagony post from splitfarvle that doesn't add anything to the case.

This also reeks of bussing. That whole post? Casts suspicion on well over half the playerlist. I counted. There's at least eight suspicions in there. WormyKrew, Secret, TWIE, Gerhard (his stale vote), Monk, Alex, Jily, myself.

Maybe not all of them were meant as suspects--but even if they weren't meant as suspects, that therefore means that Ald was trying to discredit them, which is even worse. (I can easily explain why.)

That was not a town post. At all.

Scum interactions (BIG TIME), scum Motive behind casting so many suspicions, scum Tone (particularly towards me), scum overall play.

(Why didn't I nail him harder on this before?!?)

But let's move on. The beauty of it is, after Ald posts one scummy wall, he goes on to post another following it.

Quite frankly, I'm not in the mood to go into exactly why that post is so filled with scum.

Remind me to come back to it later. Say, "Mastin, please elaborate on why 785 was so bad."

(*Once. More. Resisting. Urge. To post. Soben-Scum.*)

For the record, Secret opposed the TWIE lynch.

This (and the fact that TWIE got to L-1) is all you need to know for TWIE-town. It was a horribad reason to jump on, pinning the blame on someone who hadn't even been walling that much, and rushes the day, urging people to lynch TWIE quickly. (Sound familiar? It should, because that's the exact same thing which people are doing with Captain.)

Null Reads: Aldusskel and WeirdAlex.

Perfect place to put your buddy, eh?

WormyKrew 7 (L-0)

Mastin2

,

jilynne1991

, Alduskkel, Ironhead, Darth Yoshi,

Secret Project

, Soben

Given the circumstances of the lynch, you really think this is even CLOSE to being all-town? Heck no. At least one scum bussing, and I'm wagering on it being two. Not me, obviously. Not Jily, of course. Not Ironhead, pretty much definitely. And of course, Secret's dead. Leaves {Ald, Yoshi, Soben}. Tell me, does ANYONE think all three of those names are town?

...No?

...Yeah, for good reason. 1-2 scum, in those three names. Captain was not among them.

So unless you think the WormyKrew lynch was mystically all-town, you should want to lynch inside the names there.


I know, 38 isn't a full 10, but, eh, close enough. (And to the end of the day.)

[mastin2]

@Ironhead: Scum wouldn't let jily's vig go through no matter what her target's alignment was if they had anything to say about it. If her target was scum, then obviously they will stop it. If her target is town, they will stop it so that the Town is forced to use a lynch instead of a night kill on the player that was going to be vigged.

Quite frankly, this seems like inside knowledge. Not so much the statement "jily would be blocked regardless of her alignment"--that's pretty null. The REASONS Ald gives, on the other hand, SCREAM of, "this is WHY we blocked her".

(Speaking of which, I'm getting the distinct impression that Ald's the Roleblocker. Soben's probably a Goon.)

There's also 940. I point out a few flaws in my 962. Ald says he's looking at Broken, Alex, and Soben. I correctly pointed out how that REEKS of bussing, and giving the "buddy and two townies" strategy. His weak suspects, for equally weak reasons. It displays a consistent scum Tone. (The exact same Tone, mind you, which I nailed WormyKrew for.) The post reeks of scum Motive. It also seems like it has inside knowledge--looking at this post, it looks like Ald already KNOWS that Jily used her shot, but got blocked. Jily had not posted that, yet. (Why didn't I catch onto that before?!? It's a HUGE scumslip, now that I think about it.)

This reeks of being scum interactions, too.

Active lurking.

While I am not on board for a jily policy lynch, I will lynch jily based on the fact that she is scummy. (See my wall.)

Policy lynching a player-->scum. Jily was, is, and shall always be obv-town in this game. Trying to justify her lynch-->scum move. Honestly. I never, EVER support Policy Lynches, for a dang-good reason. Policy Lynching is lynching someone based off of their general playstyle. This is not the same thing as scumhunting. It's no better (and in fact is far worse) than random lynching. Ald's support for her death makes him far more likely scum.

I'd much prefer it if you actually did some scumhunting beyond gut and some weak scumtells thrown in on occasion.

Blatant scum-coaching-town. Additionally, this does not read as someone who thinks Jily is scummy. This reads as someone who knows Jily is town, and wants to see more from her. Refer to the above, for why his support of her lynch therefore makes him scum.

I picked things that were especially wrong. And that's why it is the weakest part of your argument, because it is particularly wrong.

Ald admits to strawmanning me.

Yeah, the someone you think is scum right now. If I'm scum, then why did I post that? Are you saying you agree with someone you think is scum, then? Especially on a point about who's scum...

There is no way this line came from town. Using a point he made to try and make himself look far more town than he actually was for it.

Man, remember when you explained things Mastin? That was great. I remember those days. Good times.

I'd like to see more explaining and less unsubstantiated statements with excessive amounts of smilies.

1: Tone. This is the strongest scum tone in the post. 2: Blatantly false. That was not how I used to be; I've always sucked at explaining things. 3: He wants less of the excessive smileys, which he knows me for. 4: blatant hypocrisy.

Maybe DarthYoshi is trying to get you to vote for wierdalex because he wants wierdalex lynched because he believes him to be scum, which is the pro-town thing to do.

This is really dumb. I am pretty sure DarthYoshi is town.

1: Scum tone. 2: Trying to get Alex lynched. 3: Defending Yoshi. 4: Degrading my play. 5: Calling Yoshi Town. When it's pretty much common sense (for the multiple reasons I've outlined several times) that one of them has to be scum.

He also chooses to waste the town's greatest power. A pro-town player has only two tools for catching scum: their voice, and their vote. The latter is quite frankly more important to me than the former. (I believe that someone with a posting restriction of only being able to post votes can still do better scumhunting than pretty much everyone else in the thread. It's why that's my Dream-Post-Restriction--to have absolutely nothing but my Vote as a weapon against the scum. To prove this belief true.) I wrote two guides on why Pro-Town Players shouldn't waste their votes. ("Mastin's Guide To Playing Well" and "Mastin's Guide to VCA" both cover the subject of why there's pretty much no pro-town motivation to not vote.)

989 pretty much sums up my thoughts on Ald at the time--he posted pretty much nothing which'd have even possibly convinced me to move my vote.

@Ald: If you're not going to vote and not going to give us a suspect list in lieu of a vote, then you are not looking a whole lot more townish than you were D1.

Yoshi, you've finally got me thinking you're town. You've managed to convince me of that, and I see it all the time in your posts. Thanks for that.

Now in exchange, I'd like to snap you back into your senses, and wake you up. Get you back onto the right track, the track which you set me on, the path which I currently follow, but which you started--an Ald lynch, with solid reasons like this.


Keeping with the old trend (this is through 40), I'm posting this now and continuing on from there.

(And this is where things get...VERY interesting......)

[mastin2]

Scum attitude. Dismissing me AND Yoshi, saying he'll not be paying attention to us until lylo, and scumslipping by revealing he knows we're both town.

I could quote a lot from Twisted's entry post, about CC-->town and Ald-->scum. But highlights?

page 11
oh look it's CC. well he's town anyways.
Ald just defends himself. No town fruit

^Valid. Both in that CC is town, and Ald's defending himself is rather condemning.

Yoshi

and Ald deserve suspect status though.

These are ALL valid points against Ald, too. Read it all; it's an excellent post from Twisted.

1049 is an instance of Captain as town, for the record. Going against the general beliefs of the thread at the time (that being, "Twisted is obv-town"), he votes for Twisted. It's in this case quite the strong town indicator, especially since Twisted was not suspicious of Captain at the time. (And in fact was a bit of the opposite--in other words, Captain was attacking one of his defenders, another SERIOUS town-tell.)

Side-note:

TheWayItEnds 4 (L-2) Soben, Wiredalexv, Darth Yoshi, Twistedspoon,

This was NOT all-town at this point. Not by a long-shot. It's not Yoshi, it's not Twisted, it's not Alex, then who could it be? Oh. Right. Soben, of course.

This is more reasoning why Captain is town. Scum tend not to believe one of their primary attackers is town.

@Soben:

The case on Ald revolves around a few things--

-The "null" nature of his posts, something you yourself admit.

-Low activity level, something Ald himself admits, but does so in such a way, and with such emphasis, that much of his activity has been to justify his lack of quality activity, rather than actual scumhunting.

Plus, there are a couple D1 scumtells--

-Ald parking his vote on what was the Gerhard slot, a slot that never came under serious scrutiny, which to me looked like parking a vote somewhere to avoid scrutiny of it; I noted this as a scumtell when I first voted Ald, and I noted it as a scumtell today with Elsa's vote on CC.

-The WK association--On D1, Ald was attempting to discredit the WK wagon by asking everyone on it (save me) to justify why they were on it, and pronouncing himself unsatisfied with that wagon--BUT, he still joined that wagon, which suggests a buddy bussing to avoid suspicion after the scumflip.

That's the case on Ald in a nutshell. Independently, he is rather scummy. In association with WK, he is in fact very scummy.

^All of this, valid.

Alduskkel 4 (L-1) Mastin2, Twistedspoon, Darth Yoshi, Wiredalexv, Captain

Oh, hey, look at how this wagon formed naturally and over a period of time. And observe how it'll soon be falling apart, too!

And now, we come to page 48.

Here's where things...become...

......

Well, become what they pretty much are today. Stopping here, since, well...it's kinda the sort of thing which is worthy of its own post.

[mastin2]

And thinking about turning in for the whole night, actually. 3 AM, right now. I'm not sure I could handle it at the moment. (Remind me about 785 as well. 785, his post on page 48, his recent post...pretty much some of his strongest scum posts.)

[mastin2]

I'll save 1189 for later. It's pretty much the scummiest of Ald's scum posts, in the top three. (The weakest of the top three is the first post I said "I'll come back to". Which I will. I'm just saving those which're the best and most time-consuming for last.)

Appeal to ridicule, fluff, pointless scum post.

Jily suspicion is not town-motivated.

One of THE most important posts for Ald being scum, is actually a post by Soben. It's the post which finally pushed me into solidifying my reads, the thing which eventually convinced me of my scumteam. It's the horrendously-scummy 1204. Particularly, the second paragraph.

I have to agree with Mastin, Post #1189 by Alduskkel was all over the place. It involved him pointing out decently strong town-tells from Alex and Yoshi and then progressing to cast a level of suspicion and questioning upon them later in the post along with a vote placed on Alex with a real lack of reasoning for the change of mind. I fail to understand what he attempts to gain by linking WK and SP and stating that there was a lack of hard interactions between them because there very clearly was furthermore he avoids taking any real stances on the more active or vocal players in the game and progresses to FoS'ing certain lurkers which is reasonable if he can explain how their level of lurking or contentless posting is a scum-tell but isn't for others such as Elsa or TWIE. With all that said I don't find the post particulary scummy, just bad and I'm uneasy with any consideration of a quicklynch when content is actually starting to pick up in the thread.

He presents a lot of points against Ald, wording things pretty well. He gives a lot of reasons why Ald makes perfect sense as sum. And yet, doesn't think it's particularly scummy. And calls his lynch a quicklynch. When 1: it had built up over the whole day, and 2: WE WERE FREAKIN' THREE DAYS FROM THE ORIGINAL DEADLINE, THEN.

Since jilynne has claimed to be 1-shot that means that even if we nail a Mafia RB she still can't prove her role to us.

Scumslip. Major, MAJOR scumslip. Ald KNOWS there's a real RB. Note that he's calling Jily scum, and even if they nailed an RB, Jily couldn't prove herself. When the only evidence of an RB so far comes from Jily. And if an RB were found, it'd have to be her partner. It all gives MAJOR scum-points to Ald. (How did I miss this before?)

There's also

You don't know?

Scum tone.

This is quite possibly because he knew she was scum and wanted to get town points if ever she was killed. Or maybe because he knew she was faking it he perceived her as more scummy and continued to pursue her in that faux town mindset.

Or, Occam's Razor, WormyKrew was scum pushing a mislynch EXACTLY the same way Ald has been.

They're one of the more rare roles, I think.

Quite false; limited-shot vigilantes seem to appear in pretty much every-other game I play in. (Every-third at WORST.)

Ald pushing a Jily suspicion reeks of scum trying to get in a desperate mislynch, since there's no town motivation.

The post also contains a ton of Soben interactions, and they're quite condemning.

Not a town way of going about suspicion. He tries to take the best of both sides, leaves open his options, he tries to defend his actions, he tries to justify his weak stance, he doesn't go into specific names, calling out a vague suspicion not followed through on...you get the idea. Pure scum post, with pure scum Motive.


I'm sorry I am not giving more, but it's 3:30 am. I'm getting tired. (Tomorrow when I return will be 24 hours left.
Please.
PLEASE.

An Ald lynch.
Not a No-Lynch,
Not a Captain lynch.

I want a Perfect Game, dang it!)

[mastin2]

Alex.

24 hours.

And.
I.
Will.
NOT.
See.
Captain.
Lynched.

I'm not going to bed until I see Ald lynched.

[mastin2]

As I said.

I won't vote Captain.

Period. End of Discussion.

Not a thing in the world could convince me. Not arguing "better than a no lynch", not a cop claiming guilty on Captain, nothing.

It's Ald today. Pure and simple. I accept no alternatives.

[mastin2]

Redacted, vote counted. - Mod

Right now, the deadline's on my birthday.

As your birthday gift to me, can we pleeeeeeeeeeeease have an Ald lynch?

(I know, this by itself won't be enough. I'll get to this game once I've taken care of other obligations.)

[mastin2]

/Tempting fate. (Getting into a Wall War is ALWAYS tempting fate. I strongly advise against it in my Guide To Playing Well, but, well...based on what I'm seeing, Ald's actually CONVINCING people, meaning I need to make sure he doesn't.)

Spoiler: Wall

However, I fail to see how there is any scum motivation to this petty inconsistency.

And is there any town motive for the inconsistency, either?

...No?

Yeah, don't bring Motive into a place it doesn't belong. This is flat-out a scum contradiction, which you're trying to deflect off of you.

Ironhead... doesn't seem to understand the case against him.

This IS a contradiction with Ald's suspicion cast on Ironhead. There's no way around that. He doesn't see the case agaisnt Iron...and yet, throws suspicion towards Iron, anyway?

Ald's failure to address this also confirms he's scum.

CC and jily are town for disinterest in the game -- but I'm not? Wouldn't it make sense if I was a VT too?

1: But you didn't show disinterest in the game.

I don't know if anyone else is, but I am personally disgusted with my play up to now.

That's not what disinterested town say.

2: Disinterest is also significantly higher for newer join dates. I, for one, was among those who thought the VT role was boring when I was a newb. (Mainly, due to me not getting it for, like, four or five games. ) Now? VT's my favorite role of all time. (Yes, really.) The longer you play, the more you learn to enjoy that role. I very frequently note disinterest as a town-tell from people with 2010-2011 joindates. I NEVER note disinterest as a town-tell for someone with, say, a 2007 joindate.

Also, is this supposed to be a scum tell?

Since when

isn't

hypocrisy a scumtell?

I said it that way because that seems like the sort of dry humor, vaguely funny way of responding to what you said. It's amusing because of it's blunt response to something that doesn't usually get that kind of response (how often is "if that makes sense" replied to with "no, it doesn't"?).

Alright. To paraphrase what you're saying,
"It's. A. JOKE."

...Yeah, you're not getting away with writing it off as a joke, Ald. (Heh. I used to believe writing off an earlier post as a joke to be a scumtell a-la-EmpTyger--to some extent, I still do.) There was no town reason to give that sort of humor. Town simply doesn't think that way. Scum give that type of humor all the time, though.

I don't even know where you're getting this weird VC analysis from. How about you examine the reasons people were doing what they were doing at the time instead of just looking at some broad outline and making poor presumptions from it?

Admittedly, my VCA in the case is a measure of Interaction, rather than Motive or Tone. But quite frankly, measuring Motive and Tone for the votes would be a waste of time, because it wouldn't change the conclusion. I did the reasoning in my head for the voters' motives and tried to remember the tone of the votes off the top of my head, when I did the VCA. And my conclusion remained the same.

For God's sake, I've said about a million times that the wagon at the time was basically devoid of reasoning. If you address nothing else in this post, address this. Because with the information I was given at the time I feel I made the right call. It's not some damning connection to WK.

Right, like the wagon on you is basically devoid of reasoning.
WK was scum. I was right. The people on the wagon, were right, and you called it "devoid of reasoning". Despite it having been right.
You're scum. I'm right. The people on the wagon, are right. And you've been calling it essentially reasonless. But despite the "reasonlessness", it's right. (And due note that I put quotation marks for a reason.)

Oooh, it couldn't be that I am a town player concerned about the activity of the game. Couldn't possibly be that.

Correct.

It wasn't that SP was posting too much. It's that a bunch of other people were posting too little. SP was there for comparison. You've severely misread the post.

Explain how. I drew a rather clear connection from that. I think you're once more trying to backtrack.

Logic time. Just because I said "I never said I suspected anyone on the wagon"

doesn't mean that I don't suspect people on the wagon

. And it really doesn't mean I'm calling those people town. What it does mean is that DY was putting words in my mouth and I was pointing that out.

You're so freakin' full of backtracking you can't even keep your story straight. Now you're implying that you DID suspect people on the wagon.

I obviously have changed my mind.

But there was nothing to have sparked this change in mind. There was nothing which either of us has done which would have changed your perspective. It's blatant scum contradicion.

Town players drop scum tells too, and I posted those just in case they weren't town.

...I have no words.
No effing words.
For.
Just.
How.
Bad.
This.
Is.

I'm literally at a loss of words for just how scummy that is, am stunned that Ald actually said something that stupid, that...blatant.

I wasn't trying to discredit them. A player drops a scum tell or two and I note it and I'm trying to discredit them?

Twisting my words. I said he was either trying to cast suspicion, OR trying to discredit them. Not both at the same time.

Hey, I just thought it through. I give good insight and somehow that's inside knowledge?

Yes. If you had just said, "jily would have been blocked regardless of her target's alignment", that'd have been null. I said as much. The thought process you used to explain it REEKS of inside knowledge, reeks of being the mind-set of a scum player who thought it through last night and is almost copy-pasting from the Mafia QT. It wasn't the insight which was the problem. It was the thought process used to post said insight. Mindset is one of the strongest sub-sets of Motive.

I meant look at in terms of "I need to iso these people."

This does not answer the issue.

I wouldn't know if jily had used her shot or not unless I was a tracker, watcher, or jily.

Or, you're the freakin' scum RoleBlocker and KNOW Jily was blocked.

Additionally, the wording of this:

I wouldn't know if jily had used her shot or not unless I was a tracker, watcher, or jily.

I think that it is no big assumption to think that jily had used her shot. And if it hadn't gone through, then it's also no big assumption to think that a roleblocker is afoot.

...Implies that Ald thinks (or KNOWS) that Jily is town and therefore not lying, whereas...

Also, jily is scummy. If she isn't then address what I've said against her.

THIS reaffirms that Ald thinks Jily is scum. (No, wait, worse. Ald thinks Jily is scum

my

. That's ten times worse, because it leaves him the chance to back out at any time by saying, "scummy, but not scum".)

Speaking of which. Ald's suspects have been from what I see, Captain, Alex, and Jily.

Easy mislynch targets for the lose!

Err, DY has done basically the same thing and you obviously think that lines like mine did come from town.

Different subjects. I agreed with you on a point about the Night. I agreed with Yoshi on a suspect. The two are COMPLETELY different things to agree with.

You trying to tie these entirely different things together makes you even more scum.

No. Not in this post.

But you HAVE been trying to get Alex lynched!

BTW, since alex isn't happening

(Speaking of that, Ald's wording implies he knows Alex is town already.)

Shrug. Is this scummy?

YES.

Since when ISN'T degrading the play of another scummy?

And since you just admitted to doing it (you didn't deny it--you asked what was wrong with it), you're scum.

Second of all, I was holding my vote off so that I could do those isos and make a more informed, better vote.

Dude. YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR VOTE ANY TIME BEFORE A LYNCH!
The ONLY reason to be afraid of making a poor, less-informed vote, is that you're scum who fears they'll have to backtrack out of the vote later.

It sounds like you only saw the towniness after you came to the conclusion that DY was town. Maybe you should try reading my posts with the idea that I'm town and see what comes up.

I did. I came up with...well, nothing. I saw nothing positive in a town-Ald. I saw nothing which looked like I could praise you for. I had to fight, hard, to make a universe where Ald was town exist. And it collapsed the second I stopped trying.

You're scum. You're overdefensive, opportunistic, lurky, walling, anti-town scum. (I meant it when I said, I really see the old scum-Mastin when I look into Ald.)

My defense is rather condemning?

Yes. You dig your hole deeper every time you post. Even if Captain is mislynched today, you're not going to escape forever, Ald. You might've manipulated a few people into thinking you're not scum, but when Captain flips town, their viewpoint will collapse. They will realize, "...Maybe Mastin wasn't so Mad afterall." They'll look at you, and look at me, and realize, I was right and they will be ashamed that they were fooled by your hollow see-through defense.

You know, Occam's Razor applies when one possibility requires less assumptions/the assumptions are fairly like to be true.

It's not less assumptions. It's simpler assumptions. Compare mine to yours.

Lots of normals?

Exclusively normals. And limited-shot vigs are incredibly common. While we didn't know it to be the case, you can look at Desert Mafia for an example--the Delayed Action Vig was two-shot. One instance of many. You can also look at Oldy Mafia, which had a limited-shot vig. The role is on the uprising, and is incredibly common.

If so, what makes you think that you haven't just encountered a large number of 1-shot vigs or something?

Occam's Razor. Which is more likely?
That I've seen an abnormally large number of 1-shot vigs, that I've seen lots of people favoring their usage all across the site and that it never actually gets put into practice?
...Or that they actually are on the rise and becoming incredibly common?

Well, of course he will if I flip scum. Not sure what you're getting at here.

Scumslip.

Redacted, vote counted. - Mod

Don't think you needed to do this--I've made my opinion in-thread pretty clear about this.

[mastin2]

I noticed only after I posted.

[mastin2]

Oh, and for the record?

It's either me or him, and if it's not me, it's him.

This is going to make me super scummy tomorrow. Sorry Mastin.

This screams town.

Additionally,

At this point I think it is safe to say that Secret Project is scum.

This is a town-slip, since if TWIE's slot was mafia, they'd have access to a scum QT, where they'd mention who was killed. Xv failed to notice that Secret was death, therefore xvart cannot be mafia who killed them.

So, don't mislynch these two.

Ever.

They're both town.

[mastin2]

Also, considering the Mod's in the same time-zone I am (California is Pacific, as is Oregon [where I am right now] and Washington [my home], and it's 1 AM here), unless Substrike is an insomniac, I'll probably have time to show you why the others are mislynches, too.

Gerhard/Captain, TWIE/xv, Elsa, Jily/replacement, Alex.

All five have had numerous attempted and (justifiably so!) failed wagons on 'em. I need to make sure you never mislych them.

[mastin2]

so if Ald flips town, who are our mafiosi Mastin?

I quite frankly can't tell at the moment, because I quite frankly can't see Ald as scum.

Only when the Mod comes in and tells me, "Mastin, you were wrong" will I be able to re-evaluate the thread with a fresh perspective on the game.

I doubt it'll change my opinions on almost all of the five names, though. They all have numerous town-tells.

The scum are outside those five.

[mastin2]

you don't think Iron is a myslynch?

Iron's wagon never built up steam.

For good reason.

All of the five names I mentioned, however, have had serious threatening bandwagons on them.

If memory serves, Iron never got more than three votes, never got closer than L-4.

The rest have gotten AT LEAST to L-3, if not L-2 or L-1. (And Elsa/Alex were tied for vig votes, which itself was a wagon of sorts, with five on each, effectively L-2 for both of them.)

[mastin2]

so if Ald flips town, who are our mafiosi Mastin?

I quite frankly can't tell at the moment, because I quite frankly can't see Ald as scum.

do you mean can't see ald as town?

...Yeah, pretty obvious I meant I can't see Ald as town. (I walled a dead guy! Of COURSE I think he's scum! )

[mastin2]

First off, I pointed out why I believe this was a townslip. I know, everyone (including alex ) disagrees with it, but I still hold it was valid.

This does not look faked, either, meaning Alex was not aware that WormyKrew was scum.

There's also this:
As Ironhead was to WormyKrew,
Alex is to Alduskkel.

In other words, Alex's interactions with Ald look the same way as Ironhead's with WormyKrew. And vice-versa, Ald's with Alex are a dead-ringer for WormyKrew's with Ironhead. (This also applies to their counter-wagons. TWIE is pretty much identical to Captain, when you look at them. The play overall is a perfect match.)

There's probably more I could find, but I'm kinda lazy. Alex has been showing consistent scumhunting. He has extremely favorable interactions. His motive seems consistently town. His biggest thing in his favor is tone, which is consistently town. He has lots of town-tells, and overall is a pretty town player.

[mastin2]

I've multiple times defended Elsa and Jily--I'll see about pulling out the notes from my ISO. I'll then ISO both of them to augment it.

[mastin2]

No, Soben. You don't fake that kind of thing as scum.

It.
Just.
Doesn't.
Happen.

TWIE got to L-1, a quickwagon.
Captain got close to a lynch, as a quickwagon.

The two of them are both town, because neither quickwagon was good, compared to their counter-wagons, on the slowly-building scumwagons, WormyKrew and Alduskkel.

And Elsa's town for other reasons.

Really, this game was decided long ago. The outcome was sealed from the moment WormyKrew was hammered. It's a guaranteed town win.

[mastin2]

And it's easily see-through.

I'm a vet EM player, too. I know of what you speak. Heck, I've faked it myself. It's easy to detect, easy to see through.

Like a player asking why there's a blue icon next to their name. In all of my EM time, I've only see one person successfully fake this, compared to at least a dozen or so legitimate cases.

[mastin2]

Considering I've seen Jily in multiple games, I've got a general feel for how she plays--she legitimately does put less effort into games where she is town, because they're more boring to her. There's more to it than that, though. On day one, you'll note she is a little more active than on Day two. The reason being, she had a role. Once her shot was used up, she was effectively reduced to being a VT--and to her, that's the ultimate boring of the boring. She no longer had an interesting role to use; she used it already.
This fits with a general newbie trend to dislike VT role PMs, too. Lots of Newbies hate the VT role. Lots don't think it has potential, think it is boring. Jily among them.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

[mastin2]

Furthermore: Jily has been heavily suspected by all three of my scumreads.
WormyKrew suspected her on day one, heavily.
Ald has suspected her heavily.
Soben has expressed an extreme dislike for Jily.

That's more than enough to convince me. But there's more to it than just this, too.

First off, from memory, jily's newb-town, but still town.

Having gotten to Page 24, I must say, I'm kinda ashamed:

Jily's did better scumhunting than pretty much anyone else.

Defending Elsa as town, and pushing WormyKrew as scum, mainly.

Jily was one of the early WormyKrew pushers.
Read my extensive notes on the subject. I know the mind-set of a Newbie.

And this is still only scratching the surface. That's through 75 of my 181 posts, and not even beginning to go into Jily's ISO.

[mastin2]

You'd be more convincing if you'd only have quoted the first half and left out the second, because if you were trying to prove me wrong, the second half of that quote was not the way to do it. (It only confirmed my statement.)

[mastin2]

Not the mod, but I can answer quicker than the mod, who is presumably sleeping.

Still working on finding a replacement for Jily. Night will last until a replacement is found, if one is not found beforehand.

[mastin2]

Believe me a

Jillyn wagon and lynch is something I've considered multiple times

but each and every time I do I reach the conclusion that it isn't a good idea, although

her actions are suspicious

Like I said. Soben's shown dissatisfaction towards Jily.

[mastin2]

As for the tell. You have to keep in mind. xvart was clearly reading chronologically. I know that when I'm reading a game, I tend not to address the newer posts until I'm finished--most of the times, I don't even know they're there. (Not always, of course--sometimes I do. But frequently, I do not--I didn't in this game, for instance.)

Sure, xvart could have seen them, but there's no way to prove or disprove he was reading current events.

And unless you can prove xvart saw Ironhead's reaction, there's nothing against xvart's lack of commentary, especially considering xvart got sick.

Besides.

This game had three scum.
Key word, had.
Down to two today,
And, like, 90% likely to be down to one tomorrow.

That means 1/9 alive would be scum. "Innocent until proven guilty" is not an unreasonable policy to adopt. (Which is why I'm gonna have a heck of a time tomorrow convincing you all that Soben's scum.)

[mastin2]

And Soben. You clearly showed Jily in a negative light. Your conclusion might have been positive, but only after intentionally painting a negative light on Jily.

This is not an unfair assessment, because it's right there. It's what I just managed to show.

And your continued denial of it, makes me further convinced that, yes, you are the last scum.

[mastin2]

No Twistedspoon, he's town. Just really really bad town.

Don't have time to read Mastins most recent post, will have to do so later, running late already.

And yet, this "really really bad town" nailed one scum and by your own admitted beliefs (this is the same head that said they thought Ald was a scum-lynch, no?), almost certainly nailed a second.

By what definition is that "really really bad town"?

[mastin2]

we needed as much time as possible for Xvart to post his catch up thoughts and reads before this went to night-phase though I still believe there's a decent chance Ald will flip scum

This 1: shows Soben thinks xvart is town (why wait for the thoughts of scum, when they're [in Soben's non-existent town view] likely the only scum left because...) and 2: thinks Ald is scum.

[mastin2]

In other words, Soben scumslipped, by revealing they know xvart is town.
If Ald is scum, there's only one scum left.
So Soben can't argue waiting for xvart's thoughts would be "more information to find buddies". xvart would be the ONLY scum left, by Soben's logic.
Therefore, the only reason to wait for xvart's thoughts would be to see town insight.

Yet Soben clearly thinks xvart is scum.

[mastin2]

the fact that he showed and understood that the leading two wagons were CC and Alduskkel as well as placing a vote shows that he's relatively up to date with recent occurances.

And he knew that...when?
Oh, right, in his last post where he was sick.

[mastin2]

And if you think the later one was faked, how about the earlier one?

Honestly, though, had I realized there were no flips yet I probably wouldn't have...

If he were scum, he'd have known there were two flips, by the lack of a voice in the Mafia QT and the kills. xvart thought that there were no flips at the time.

Therefore, xvart wasn't aware of the scum kill, or scum lynch. Therefore, xvart is town. xvart only displays awareness of the current game in 1377, his last post. And he was sick.

[mastin2]

Correction--lack of TWO voices.
WormyKrew was a scum hydra, therefore they would've both spoken in the Mafia QT.

[mastin2]

...That was not the kill I was expecting.

First off, this is being typed under the assumption I live.

This is a large assumption, admittedly, and I gave myself only a 20% chance for survival--but I have to assume I will live, because if I assume I die and I end up living, I'm caught off-guard.

Second-off, this is also assuming Ironhead lives. That, itself, is an assumption, which I only gave around a 55% chance of happening.


Now that those are out of the way:

I'm going to be blunt--

Say what you will about my method. You might not agree with it, you might not fully understand it. But let me be quite frank.
I nailed WormyKrew and Ald as scum on day one.
On day two, I furthermore managed to correctly call Ald as a scum roleblocker.

I will not stand for your insults to me. I will not let you call my play stupid. My method might be different than what you are used to.

But it works.

And it works well.

Adapt to it.

Either I'm scum who double-bussed day one, am incredibly lucky with my suspicions, or--let's face it--I'm better than what you have been giving me credit for.


For instance, don't assume for so much as a MOMENT that I'm completely tunneling on my scum-reads. I strongly hinted at it Day Two, but I did not want to say it until Day Three. That I had a backup, secondary suspect in case my read on Soben was wrong.

That player is Twistedspoon, for the record, meaning that if Soben were to somehow flip town, I would have a backup plan in place, a backup suspicion to take the place of Soben.


That said, I'm also going to be clear, when I say this--I still think Soben is scum. Soben fits into the puzzle perfectly as scum, better than any other player. (Twisted only kinda fits.) I'm not going to start working on a case until after I've confirmed that I did in fact live through the night, but I can in the mean time explain to you the rest of my reads.


For starters--Jily's slot now IS confirmed town. *DELETED A LONG RANT ABOUT WHY JILY IS TOWN* (I can post it if you really want to see my reasons for calling her town, but, well, it's kinda pointless; I no longer have to convince anyone )

Now that we have that out of the way.
Presumably, day will be dawning with nine to ten players alive. My name among them.

So, that's one down, 7-8 left to go. (And since one name in there is scum, that's actually 6-7 left. With one of those names being Twisted--backup choice for scum--that's really only 5-6 left.)

And I'll be covering those in a second.

VOTE: Soben

I'm two-for-two so far. Let's go for all three!

[mastin2]

(Also, if it wasn't obvious, I predicted that the night-kill would be among {Mastin, Yoshi, Ironhead}. I concluded that if it wasn't me, that it'd be more likely to be Yoshi, because Soben has been blatantly buddying with Ironhead and Ironhead is both 1: the strongest advocate against me, and 2: the strongest advocate for Soben being town.)

[mastin2]

Basically:
TOWN: Yoshi
Ironhead
MISLYNCHES (also town):
Captain
xvart/TWIE
Alex
Elsa

BACKUP SCUM (most likely town, but is the most likely scum if Soben is town): Twisted.

SCUM:
Soben.

[mastin2]

I'd only do a mass-claim if we have an investigative role that has actually useful information. (Meaning they'd claim first.) If nobody steps up, that means no investigative role has useful info, and therefore, a MC would be pointless.

Additionally, Alex isn't scum. Look at Ald's interactions with Alex.

[mastin2]

*sigh*

Unvote, Vote: xvart

.

What more would there be to say? Short of Soben being a godfather. (Believe me, I pondered that result. I thought it through, multiple times, thinking that Soben would be an obvious cop target.)

[mastin2]

Here's mine. :/

[mastin2]

Indeed. Helps me with my notes. Keeps me more concise, better than notepad.