Mini 1180: Game Over

[Soben]

Hello everyone, Regfan side of the hydra here. I've played with a few of you in the past and it's nice to see some new faces as well. With the exception of my replace in and catch-up post we won't be posting separately, instead we will be discussing our thoughts in our QT prior to posting thus there will be no need to sign our posts. I know this post is going to seem unbelievably long however I urge everyone to read the entirety of it and state what they have agreement or disagreement with.

The amount of discussion based around the advantages and disadvantages of the RVS and the RQS in this game is appalling. Players thoughts and opinions on both of these would be decided before entering the game and recieving their role meaning their stances are unallignment indicative. Futhermore attempting to attack a player because of their ability to use English is infuriatingly bad, if you were to read through just one of Ironheads town games you will notice his use of language is highly similar thus not an allignment related tell. I also strongly dislike the fact that it's being pushed that at least one of the town hydras has to be scum due to interactions becuase it's not the case at all, the only thing that interactions between them show is that they're not scum together.

I do need to hear from TheWayItEnds and Ironhead more before I can attain a read on any of them so: Ironhead and TheWayItEnds I want you all to state your thoughts on the WormyKrew wagon at the moment as well as if you feel it's scum or town propelled.

Town Reads:

Captain Corporal:

His predecessors actions before replacing out read as a geninue attempt at scumhunting and leaving information for his partner, Captains disagreement with his predecessors reads is something that mafia generally would avoid doing, as is openely asking for players reads and thoughts on their slot.

Secret Project:

The strength and aggression they showed about their reads earlier in the day reads as a geninue belief that they're correct. Their reaction to Jils claim and their actions following it is something I have massive trouble seeing them do as scum.

Wormy Krew:

I'm not seeing the case against them. The slip is semantics and is being pushed to the point where it's becoming a joke. Their hydra disagreements read as legitimate and there are many alternate places where they would place their vote as scum in this position. Their play also shows no ressemblance to Sleepys scum game, I suggest reading through Newbie 1098 to notice the massive differences in his play. I do dislike the fact that they have quietened down recently and would like them to explain and move their vote.

Mastin2:

]I'm finding this read slightly difficult to explain, part of it has to do with Flinters actions however minimal they are the rest has to do with his prevention and redirection of the attention towards DY and Alduskkel which I really like.

Monk:

Similar to Mastin I'm finding this hard to explain and it's probably a read I will have to revist at some point but his most recent post mentioning a document going missing reads as a slight-town tell as keeping notes or documents about a game is something I generally do as town but not scum.

Null Reads:

Jilynne1991:

Something that should probably be brought to light is the fact that she's not a new player, she's an alternate account of another player at this site. Proof of this is here though you'll need to attain access to Forum 62 to read it. I'm reading her play this game as an overexaggeration of her false newbie status and if you read her 'town slip' knowing she's not new it reads as highly suspicious. I however am apprehensive over lynching her at the current moment due to her claim, I'm willing to leave her to the side until tommorow.

Alduskkel

: I intensely dislike his lack of content in this game especially for someone as experienced as he is, though I'm unsure if I would consider the lack of content a scum-tell for him especially considering he openely stated he prefers to be scum, therefore would be more inclined to perform better as it.

Scum Reads:

WeirdAlex

: His play is exceedingly different to what I've seen from him in the previous game we played together and it's not because he's more experienced now, he's fencesat on nearly all of his suspicions and spent more time attempting to coach and assist Jilynne in the game than scumhunt himself. One thing I am positive on though is that if WeirdAlex or Jilynne ever flip scum the other is confirmed town.

DarthYoshi

: Although he started the game very active his posts decreased in quantity and quality to the point where he voted Wormy to gain a reaction while saying he's aiming for a reaction in the same post as the vote. This removes the entire point of the pressure vote and reads as opportunistic voting. I do have one qualm about this read though, I've observed one of his previous scum games and from memory he played remarkably differently so this reads is certaintly open to change.

Elsa

: I don't doubt that she's busy due to university finals however I believe she's exaggerating how much of a hinderance that is on her performance in this game. A game just finished very recently in which she put forward a massive amount of effort to it in comparison to this game. She also contradicts herself by stating that she was most suspicious of both of the hydras however earlier in the game she stated she was fairly positive that Secret Project was clean (town).

[Soben]

Yea, I would have been fine continuing solo as well. Regfan is a friend of mine from offsite and he seemed excited to play with this playerlist so I was like meh I suppose we can hydra as long as you do the work of okaying it with the mod.

[Soben]

Jilynee, I'm going to continue to disbelieve this and arguing over it really is pointless, [Redacted] proves that you knew what a QT was before you asked about it in this thread therefore the noob-town read that people attained from that is incorrect.

DarthYoshi, my apologies if my replacing in was of any inconvience but I jumped at the opportunity to have a proper game with Scumhunter. Let me assure you though we will work towards having our reads be agreed upon so we don't become two different players playing in one slot. The game with Elsa is: Newbie 1103.

Ironhead, it is natural and understandable for WK to buddy SP considering the fact they're both new hydra accounts therefore in a similar position. I disagree with buddying being a strong scum-tell, if it were Mastin would be lynched in all of his games purely due to the amount of players he attempts to defend. I find them attaining a town-read on SP so early in the game to be believable considering I had the same read on SP in the early pages of the game. I however can agree that his recent change of stance on SP reads as odd and I really do want it explained in detail from both of their heads.

At the current moment the only scum-read that both Scumhunter and myself agree on is Elsa. The difference in he play here compared to her linked town-game is massive. In this game she has shown willingness to lurk, sheep the leading wagon and refrain from stating alternate reads. She has also shown intention to put Krew to L-1 without explaining her read of him or mentioning him at any point prior to this.

Elsa in #177 you state that you have a town-read on Secret Project but then proceeds to state that you were suspicious of both hydras in #469 without mentioning Secret Project at any point in time between these, what changed?

Vote: Elsa

[Soben]

Alduskkel, Captain Corporal didn't pick which wagon he wanted, he stated disagreement with a scum-read that his predecessor stated. Scum have no particular reason to limit themselves to fewer lynches or wagons therefore that action is indeed a town-tell. Although scum are concered with peoples opinions of them they also know that openely asking leads to attention being drawn to them due to it as well as the possibility of them being bandwagoned meaning such a question is more likely to come from town than scum. As for why I believe if one of WeirdAlex or Jilynne flip scum the other is near-confirmed town, it's due to the massive amount of coaching and attention that has occured between them, I don't believe scum would concentrate on their partner to that extent.

DarthYoshi, it's pointless because she is going to continue to deny the fact she's an alternate account whereas my mind has already been made in regards to disbelieving that. Essentially arguing over it isn't productive for the time being. What's your opinion of Elsa at the current moment?

[Soben]

Hope everything is alright Substrike.

WormyKrew, the town-read which I have on you doesn't revolve around

just

your meta from that game. The crux of the town-read has to do with the interactions that have occured between both of your hydra heads. It reads as a geninue attempt at scumhunting and compromising over reads. As previously stated I don't understand the case put forward against you and the sheer number of people pushing this lynch forward reads as scum taking advantage of an easy mslynch. With all that being said I'm very interested in hearing both of your updated reads with reasoning attached.

[Soben]

Krew continued to push jily for a few more posts despite her incredibly obvious townslip and the way in which he did it reads more as 'scum trying to find a case' then just 'paranoid town'.

Did you even read my replace-in post because this is reading as if you haven't, if you did so you would have noticed and addressed the following:

Jilynne1991: Something that should probably be brought to light is the fact that she's not a new player, she's an alternate account of another player at this site. Proof of this is here though you'll need to attain access to Forum 62 to read it. I'm reading her play this game as an overexaggeration of her false newbie status and

if you read her 'town slip' knowing she's not new it reads as highly suspicious.

I however am apprehensive over lynching her at the current moment due to her claim, I'm willing to leave her to the side until tommorow.

Jilynee, I'm going to continue to disbelieve this and arguing over it really is pointless,

[Redacted] proves that you knew what a QT was before you asked about it in this thread therefore the noob-town read that people attained from that is incorrect.

[Soben]

As much as I want to give Elsa a break due to IRL circumstances (somewhat of a consideration), Reg and I still strongly believe she is scum and aren't willing to let her off the lynching block today just because she can't participate right now. We are going to judge Elsa on her actions so far which we really believe to be scum. I'm not saying you going V/LA is a scum excuse, but I've seen scum do it before, just saying.

[Soben]

That's a verbatim transcript, btw. I'm tempted, honestly, to vote wierdalex for his poor pushing of a mislynch, but I know that cries of "OMGUS!@" will come shortly after. Eh, screw it, his case is weak.

This makes me very comfortable where my vote currently is, you're voting Weirdalex for voting based on a weak case while being part of multiple weak cases already. You can attempt to deny it or cover it up as much as you want but essentially your reasoning for voting Alex is indeed an OMGUS. For the record I have no qualms about your extended V/LA there's ample time till the deadline after you return for this to run smoothly.

Ironhead, I think you and I both know that you've been focusing and spending a great deal of your attention this game on a select few playes, can you state your overall reads on everyone in the game in your next post please.

Mastin, your slip or case on Wormy is shit. Him stating he likes a certain player doesn't mean that he agrees with all of their reads, it's the same as disliking someone doesn't mean you have to disagree with theire reads. Quit attempting to argue semantics and state your reads on every player in the next post, even if it's just one line to explain each one.

Thank you Secret Project, finally someone sees the light in regards to Wormy, though I disagree with you about Elsa, sure her admitting to not remembering her reads isn't a slip so to speak but it is indeed a scum-tell especially as it proves she is paying less attention to the game which is something she admitted doing as scum.

[Soben]

2. splitfarvie/Scumhunter-Well, you completely slipped my mind, so either I'm having memory loss, or you're not posting enough. null.

That's us.

[Soben]

Elsa von Spielburg-you were ok while you were here, and you had no pressure on you when you left. leaning town.

There's actually a lot of pressure on her, if you were following the previous few pages you would have noticed several people have voted her.

DarthYoshi- oh my. Everyone's determined you're scum, though I don't quite see why that's so. null.

If by everyone you mean just Mastin, then yes.

Monk-You gave me a bad gut feeling. If asked to, I'll try to find the one post that really hit me in the gut. leaning scum.
Secret Project-You're contents good, and you're asking good questions. You do give me a bad gut feeling though. leaning town.
Alduskkel-You need to post more. I have a bad gut feeling. null.

So a bad gut-feeling for monk means scum, a bad gut feeling for Secret means town and a bad gut feeling for Alduskkel means null? Explain.

[Soben]

Oh sorry, I didn't mean no pressure, I meant she wasn't the most pressured, and she didn't just leave us hanging.

Her leaving has to do with real life commitments becoming overbearing I would assume, therefore her leaving is a null-tell and not a reason to read her as town or not. Her prior actions are though, so putting her leaving to the side what actions has she done that make you lean town on her?

Well, for monk, I marked that as leaning scum, because he gave me enough posts to work with.
Secret Project on the other hand, had very good activity and content. My gut feeling doesn't come first. My brain does.
Alduskkel on the hand gave me nothing to work with, so in that case, my gut feeling was based on nearly nothing.

So essentially you're saying that the fact you have a gut-scum read on someone means nothing when it comes to you actually reading them? If so then why state that you have a gut-read in the first place? Also, activity is in most cases not an allignment related tell. Someone can post a lot and still be mafia therefore suggesting activity leads towards some of your town reads is illogical.

[Soben]

Soben, you must understand that people also often leave a game when they feel like they can't win.

No, no they don't. I'm fairly sure mods blacklist players if they believe they're doing so as well. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that I want you to explain your town-read on Elsa.

[Soben]

Wormy didn't twist you words or misrepresenting anything, if that's what your case revolves around you need to take a step back and rethink through it. You said exactly this: So if you guys want to lynch me go ahead, since this game isn't really interesting me that much.

The logic in the posts you pointed out of Elsas revolves around her stating that she is in agreement with a Wormy lynch soley due to Wormys vote on SP and that she had decent feeligns about Mastin. That's not exactly copious amounts of content and certaintly nothing to attain a town-read from.

You state you may have missed something pointing out why she's scum, here it is:

At the current moment the only scum-read that both Scumhunter and myself agree on is Elsa. The difference in he play here compared to her linked town-game is massive. In this game she has shown willingness to lurk, sheep the leading wagon and refrain from stating alternate reads. She has also shown intention to put Krew to L-1 without explaining her read of him or mentioning him at any point prior to this.

This makes me very comfortable where my vote currently is, you're voting Weirdalex for voting based on a weak case while being part of multiple weak cases already. You can attempt to deny it or cover it up as much as you want but essentially your reasoning for voting Alex is indeed an OMGUS.

[Soben]

Soben "replaces" Scumhunter, effective immediately, with my permission. Soben is a Hydra account of Scumhunter and Regfan.

[Soben]

Thanks Iron, really appreciate it, I have a few disagreements with your reads but I need to talk to Scumhunter about a few things the second he gets online. There's a chance our vote may be moving sometime soon.

Jilynnn, if you were to get roleblocked, then no your kill wouldn't go through, otherwise it. Also you do realize that you've essentially just fully-claimed and drawn a massive X on your back if you are indeed town?

[Soben]

Mastin, process of elimination is actually Scumhunter and my favourite means of scumhunting. It's much easier to attain strong town-reads than strong scum-reads however the issue with it if you don't explain your town-reads people can't follow your thought process correctly. I generally don't bother with attempting to call the scum team via interactions with day one, noting obvious connections that don't worry however is worthwhile.

I'm interested in hearing your detailed scumtells on your reads though I would tell you there's no rush in belting it out, we have plenty of time until the deadline. I do still fail to understand your jillyn town-read though, considering the game I was mentioning earlier is actually over I can link you to her saying What's a QT? in Open 307.

She was scum in that game.

TheWayItEnds, generally Mini-Normals involve one of the following:

• 3 Scum. No Serial killer. Weak town power roles.
• 2 Scum. Serial killer. Average town power roles.
• 3 Scum. Serial killer. Strong town power roles.

[Soben]

Mastin, save the whiteknighting for the discussion section of the site. She stated she likes to play soley on logic therefore she's going to need to use it, explain it and then defend her reads with it, the same goes for you.

[Soben]

I'm not a vet, I've been at the site for less than three months I believe and this form of mafia is very different from the mafia I previously played. I previously played at epic mafia with players that didn't use logic whatsoever. So being a relatively new player in this format I do understand the mind of a newbie generally well, especially because I've coached multiple other players on alternate sites and even one on this site.

New players can only improve if they learn the mistakes they are mistaking and see the flaws in their arguments, this can only be done if someone points out the logical flaws and ask them to reasses or explain their reads. The honest fact is that generally if you're unable to explain your read it's wrong or you shouldn't be having it. To top that of, doing so allows you to get a better feel for the newbies role as they become forced to share their feelings in greater depth therefore completing your win objective.

[Soben]

The newbie queue is for players that don't know how to play to join to be gently tutored and helped by the games IC, if you join a game outside of that you're stating the intention to play on a level playing field with everyone else, this is privy to having to explain your reads. When you join a game you agree to do what's needed to stay by your win condition, mine was for town to win therefore if I believe the player getting lynched is town (Krew) then I need to point out illogical arguments to move the vote off him which involves showing players the flaws and gaps in their arguments.

Regardless this is all pointless discussion becuase as I've said multiple times and have just found proof, she is not a new player at all. Indisputable proof is in her Scum QT where she says "I'm going to keep going with the "I'm so confused, I'm innocent, I don't know what the hell is going on thing." It keeps me under the radar, but I need you to stay alive without seeming too defensive."

[Soben]

Your naivety is hillarious. I can't go into it too much but go through her first few posts on the site which were 10 days ago? Then tell me if you honestly believe she's new.

[Soben]

Jilynne, it's not desperation on our part as much as it is curiosity. You don't strike us as a new player and our intuition says you are not telling the truth. Does that make you mafia even if you are lying? Not sure. We are willing to drop this subject as long as our concern is noted, which it has been.

Regfan and I have been pretty active in our QT lately and we've come to a couple of conclusions. As much as we still believe Elsa is scum, we feel her V/LA will hinder our ability to get a firm reaction from her to solidify our read. We don't want to lynch her without a claim and I don't really want to wait a week for her to come back either. We just want to reaffirm our suspicion that we believe Elsa and weirdalex's alignments are likely an inverse relationship with the inclination right now that Elsa is scum. If Elsa is town, we expect at least one scum would jump on the wagon and we currently have a town read on Captain.

So, that moves us on to our next suspect: TheWayItEnds

We are pretty confident on our scum read on him, we did some re-reading and his mention of being unable to understand a normal is just an attempted excuse to cover up his active lurking. His previous town games:

1. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

2. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

We believe TheWayItEnds play this game is quite different from the proactive town play he has displayed in these games and at this point we think it justifies a vote.

unvote, vote TheWayItEnds

Reads we are relatively confident in:

Town: Captain, Yoshi, Monk, Secret, Wormy, Mastin
Null: Ironhead, Aldusskel, Alex (decently dependent on Elsa flip), Jilynne
Scum: Elsa, TheWayItEnds

@Wormy, I'm more of a Pujols fan than a Cardinals fan. He has led me to some pwnage in a keeper fantasy baseball league over the years. Oh and to explain our change in read of you, my partner has a very strong town read on you. I'm not seeing it...perhaps he can explain better than I.

[Soben]

Also, anyone who agrees with our vote on TheWayItEnds, please feel free to join us. The only way valuable discussion takes place is when pressure is applied and votes start to pile up.

[Soben]

For some unknown reason those links don't work, so here they are again:

1. Newbie 1100

2. Newbie 1066

[Soben]

Why are you just trying to find "one" read? How about explaining reads, plural, on all the other players in the game. You know, the way town-sided players do to try and figure out who they can trust and eliminate suspects.

It is page 25. It's time to step your game up and contribute something if you are town. If you are mafia feel free to continue to do next-to-nothing and get yourself lynched.

Prove my fos wrong if you are town, a legitimate defense would not be "irrelevant" to us. Basically what I want to know is "Why are you not being an active townie THIS game?" I don't care about previous games necessarily. They only serve to prove you are capable of better play as town. The fact you aren't helping out and you are able to is scummy. I'm willing to listen but you need to provide something worthwhile here.

[Soben]

I hope so Wormy. Pujols on the Cubs would just be wrong. Yanks/Red Sox don't need a 1B. Texas darkhorse candidate imo.

[Soben]

the non-scum on the elsa wagon need to come back on the krew wagon. Yes, I realize I'm not on it. Blame my misled partner. If krew gets to L-1 I'm hammering. Also this day is getting to the point where it's just really boring and dumb and we need a lynch to refresh everyone plus go off of new information so let's hurry this up please?

Please attempt to deal with your hydra partner out of thread. Constant in-thread disagreement like you two are both showing lead towards mixed signals which creates unneeded confusion. There's also no need to rush this day, there's still a lot of players lacking any real content and Krew is still town.

PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE KNOWS THAT I HAVE A ONE SHOT I'M USING TONIGHT, BUT WHAT IF SOMEONE ROLEBLOCKS ME! I REALLY HOPE SCUM DOESN'T HAVE A ROLEBLOCKER.

... I need to talk with Scumhunter ASAP I myself just realized something. Our vote may be moving yet again.

Mod, theoretically if a one shot power role were to be roleblocked would they still retain their one shot or would it be removed.

[Soben]

Excuse the double post, but what I've found from the wiki is that generally the one power is soaked up and lost however it comes down to the mods decision when designing the game. This means if there's a roleblocker in the game her block is inevitable and uncontrollable however if there is no roleblocker in the game we need to properly make use of this one-shot.

I have minimal experience with vigs especially limited-shot vigs though from browsing past games I believe considering the idea of a vig-vote where Jillyn shoots one of the people most voted for is a good idea. It means that her shot can't go stray and will essentially clear her if she's town.

Vig-Vote: Elsa

[Soben]

Sorry Jilynne, can you rephrase this just having a little difficulty understanding it, it's extremely early here. Thanks, I was going to keep track of the votes but if you do it'll save me time.

Mastin, what's your opinion on Vig-Votes, do you believe everyone should be Vig-Voting one or two people?

[Soben]

Alright, I'm about to start part two of moving back home and thus won't be able to post in the next 24 hours however I promise to respond to #643 in more detail when I return as a great deal of is untrue. I have read into your games in relatively great detail however the overall tone of the post reads as 'Scum caught for the wrong reasons'. Regardless I'll go into that more later.

Captain, Jillyn might not be confirmed town due to her claim but Scumhunter has convinced me that there's no real need to continue to doubt it as it will either be confirmed as true or false tonight anyway.

[Soben]

Sleepy, if by some chance she is a SK she'll be forced to follow the town decided vig shots making her a massive asset to the town. That reminds me, I've never ever seen or heard of a mini involving a vig, sk and scum team meaning if she is legitimate we're looking at an ordinary 10 town 3 scum average power role game.

Mastin although you may want to hold of explaining some things that case on SleepyKrew and your other suspects are imperative because I'm still not seeing SleepyKrew scum, every post he makes leads me to be more certain he's town - Yes I will go into this and explain it in more detail later.

[Soben]

TWIE, In 1100 you replaced in 11 pages in and provided bulkages of content in relation to your thoughts on the game, you then continued to aggresively push these reads and thoughts and ended up with a near 50 posts in roughly eight days of active posting, so no you didn't lurk whatsoever in that game and attempting to pretend you did is hillarious. In 1066 I don't disagree that your activity was spottish however when you were active you would post reasonable lengths of content and thoughts about the game, something you haven't done at all here. So far this game what you've done includes:

Post #18. Confirmation post, answers RQS.
Post #21. Questions the RQS questions.
Post #25. Questions information gained from RQS.
Post #88 and Post #89. RVS Vote.
Post #142. Votes Alex for echoing his comments.
Post #238. Agrees with DY saying full scum-town lists can be bad.
Post #332. States he wants to see more from mastin.
Post #424. States towns #1 objective is to find scum.
Post #525. States busy with work but promises to catch up.
Post #598. States he's gotten nowhere due to never playing a mini. Dislikes WK wagon. Questions Jillyns allignment.
Post #616. Attacks meta usage. States he's having trouble finding reads.
Post #643. Attacks meta usage.

But.... I am still very interested in your reason for voting me. >"These games show he's capable of good town play" > He hasn't played good town yet >Lynch him before he gets a chance to do so? Astoundingly good logic.

You've completly mispresented our post and you've done it blatantly as well. We didn't state we wanted you quick-lynched nor did we state we didn't want to hear from you rather the exact opposite, proof of this is in Post #617. The fact that you've attempted to jump on the 'Omg your logic is so bad for voting me' card rather than actually provide reasonable content towards this game continues to strengthen the read we had on you. I cannot understand how you would read a post where you believe we've misread your meta, attacked it for being misread and then proceeded to not state whether you find it scummy for us to do so or not.

Ahoy! Clinger comes in next post.

[Soben]

I just got out of a game where one of my best townreads

thought I was scum and we argued for much of the day... but I still liked (most of) his posting style and the way he generated activity.

Alright. Because I don't like the PoE find scum method because

I dislike the idea of town tells.

All scum is attempting to do is put out towntells by "acting town". I don't care who town is. I'm attempting to find scum.

That should be more than enough proof, can we please get votes of the Sleepy wagon and onto TWIE.

[Soben]

Wierdalexv [2] - TheWayItEnds, Elsa Von Spielburg

This is scum avoiding the mslynch that's going to occur if Krew actually goes through and attempting to set up a lynch on Alex for tommorow. How everyone fails to see this I don't understand.

[Soben]

PEdit: Soben, I disagree. Elsa hasn't been around for a couple of days, so her vote is arguably stale; moreover, if they are scum, they'd have a vested interest in pushing a WK mislynch. Neither seem that interested in it even in their non-voting content.

This is where I believe you're wrong, although scum want to push mslynches they also don't want to take responsibility for them, especially not this early in the game. Scum are more likely to be lurking around and allowing the lynch to proceed without doing too much of the dirty work themselves. Read the comments that I'll post below and you'll notice both of them have at some point pushed some suspicion towards him while also stating they don't fully agree with his lynch. If they believed this was the case and that he was town they would be doing something to attempt to prevent this lynch going through like I am, however again they both stood back and watched it take place.

I think I'd be okay with a Krew lynch at this point, based on the way he didn't let jily go in their exchange earlier and now has kind disappeared under pressure. I won't vote just yet, but that's something that I see a lot out of scum, at least when playing IRL (which is largely my base in playing mafia).

Reread the last 5 pages or so. Honestly, I was most suspicious of our two hydras before, with Krew being suspect #1, and there has been nothing to change that suspicion while I wholeheartedly agree with SP's 467. I have several somewhat-solid town-reads that I'm making note of, but Krew has never pinged that bit of my brain even once, despite his relatively high activity. For the most part, the biggest thing that catches my eye seems like Krew flailing in his last few posts and switching to SP in an attempt to find any kind of purchase. I would like to vote, but don't know where we are in the vote count (I'll gladly put him at L-1, but I don't want to hammer out of the blue).

I was planning on dropping my vote on Krew, like I had said earlier, to put him at L-1, but he had to go and post 508, which has the self-awareness and tone that looks incredibly town. I mean, saying why someone's town read on you is fundamentally flawed? What scum does that?

I think the WK wagon built up really fast which makes me slightly suspicious of it. It's probably town propelled for the most part, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were 1-2 scum on the wagon at some point. The other problem I'm having is that I'm pretty sure that mastin started pushing the WK wagon before WK posted his 'i like you "

slip

"', meaning that I'm still missing out on the reason the wagon was actually started (which, if it exists, I would still be interested in). I also don't like the slip, as I feel that liking a replacement for their posting, or their reads, or their X... means that you have to agree with everything that person has ever said.

[Soben]

TWIE, I'm not interested in you just saying bullshit meta is bullshit. It absolutely reeks of scum being mad that they were caught for a bad reason. Every post you make just strengthens our suspicions on you/ You shouldn't be wasting your breath defending yourself, rather you should be spending your time actually trying to scumhunt other players. You are acting like you are flailing and at L-1 or something. I mean it baffles us that you only have 1 vote on you, but that is the state of things so I don't see why you need to post these defenses of yourself. Is anyone else reading into TWIE at all?

Or are we the only ones who are like wtf why no lynch on him yet?

""Soben, are you really attempting to get more votes on me because you've seen me play a good town game and want me gone before I can do so again? What would be the town motivation behind that?"
Shit. That still doesn't explicitly state how I think there might be a scum motivation... it's implied... but that didn't go over too well last time.
Ah well. Maybe you'll get it."

If your suspicion of us really is this strong how come you haven't attempted to place a vote on us or state reasons why you find us suspicious? Basically, why are you voting Alex and not us. Your whole defense seems to boil down to that you play bad as town in general??? You have given next to no reads this entire game and your response to us bringing this up is that our meta case is off on you instead of responding by producing more reads/interactions with other players. Jesus, that is scummy.

[Soben]

Hadn't seen your last post before posting that. But basically yes, those are the kind of insights we want to see from you. Analysis of wagons, thoughts on players, etc...

[Soben]

The below is my post, sorry was logged on in the wrong account:

First. Point out where I support this wagon.

Second. Soben please note that in this post I am implying that mastin may have ulterior motives for pushing the WK case or stopping the iron case that have not been revealed.

Third. Soben please note that in the above sentence I am implying that if no other reason exists that the case may be scum motivated, and that, by extension, mastin may be scum.

First: You either believe he's town, or you believe he's scum, if you were unsure about him completly you would be attempting to ask Wormy questions to work out which he is. If you believe he's scum, why are you not on the wagon? If you believe he's town then wouldn't he be one of your town-reads and therefore you would be defending him?

Second: Yes, that was noted.

Third: You're still fencesitting on your decision here, you don't state if you believe Mastin is scum or not, you merely state it's a possibility, guess how much that helps? None at all.

[Soben]

If you're going to use bullshit meta me and then call for votes because of it, then I'm going to explain exactly why your bullshit meta is bullshit meta.

Firstly, the usage of meta wasn't bullshit and I believe I've proven this. Secondly meta wasn't the entire reason for our vote on you it consisted of the fact that you were lurking in a manner that showed no attempt at scumhunting or stating of reads whatsoever something that mafia gain something from doing whereas town don't. You seem content to continue to ignore this aspect of the case against you and instead scream 'Meta bullshit!' over and over again.

As for why my vote is currently not on you.... thats easy. You drop a post full of meta and a vote. I point out why its terrible, drop a vote on you.

You cry OMGUS, attempting to defeat an argument with a word.

That doesn't work for me. Instead I build a case over several posts before voting, so that if you try to cry OMGUS... you just look ridiculous. That's why my vote appears stagnant at times. (

Oh stagnant votes don't make me look town? Don't care.

)

You just stated two contradicting thought processes, you state that you don't care how people percieve your play or if it doesn't seem town while also saying that the sole reason for witholding from voting me is because then I would call OMGUS and you would look bad.

mastin has been promising a wall... I don't know if you saw that or not. If the reasoning behind his initial push from Iron to WK is in there and satisfactory, I'll be less inclined to believe that he is. If his reasoning is weak or missing, then i will have to believe that he may have had scum motivation in doing so. Its. A. Possibility.

It's also a possibility that the worlds going to end tommorow but I don't sit around doing nothing because I'm unsure if it's the case or not. You have to reach conclusions in this game and then attempt to back them up, reasses them or continue with them, this is again something you haven't done once.

Amazing content you got there yourself.

Are you honestly attempting to attack someone else for a lack of content when I just summarized the entirety of your content throughout the game this far which was almost nothing.

[Soben]

I just got out of a game where one of my best townreads

thought I was scum and we argued for much of the day... but I still liked (most of) his posting style and the way he generated activity.

Alright. Because I don't like the PoE find scum method because

I dislike the idea of town tells.

All scum is attempting to do is put out towntells by "acting town". I don't care who town is. I'm attempting to find scum.

I replaced in, I defended some one I called town.

She was, a TOWNREAD *gasp* Why? Not because she put out "towntells"

Because she was Blatantly. Obviously. Town.

I asked Scumhunter to point this out earlier, unsure why he didn't but you've blatantly contradicted yourself here as well. Town-reads can only be attained from believing the player town-told, there's literally no other way to get them. Sure there might be no such thing as X and Y are town-tells therefore anyone that does them is town however there are such things as doing X in this position reads as geninue and is therefore how I have a town-read on a person.

[Soben]

We're not lynching TWIE today, lol, stop it.

This is so bad on so many levels.

-Why can't we lynch TWIE today?
-Why are you trying to lock the lynch in on WK?
-Do you have any opinion on TWIE's alignment?

[Soben]

Our fos isn't based purely on meta. If it were though, there would be nothing wrong with it. Metagame is 100% relevant AND VALID to anything of a competitive nature. It is why baseball players pitch around Albert Pujols and decide to pitch aggressively to AAA scrubs. They know what he is capable of in the past and adjust their play accordingly.

[Soben]

Alright Secret Project, I'm willing to offer youi a proposal. We both attempt to summarize the case against our FoS in bulletpoints, then it's the other persons job to read the case with an open mind and respond to which parts they believe is legitimate and which they believe is incorrect.

[Soben]

Anyway, I've fallen a bit behind recently (ashamed to say). Could someone please repost anything they want me to address?

Jesus christ, I think you're town but I'm not going to continue defending you if you're not going to put in the effort needed for this game. There's two of you, together you should be able to see what needs addressing as well as actually atttempt to put forward and explain some reads.

[Soben]

We're Lurking Hunting. Elsa. Alex. TWIE. Know what that generally leads to? Mislynches. Misvigs. A whole lot of nothing. And guess what? Elsa, TWIE, and maybe even Alex don't seem to be displaying said scum lurking. I'll obviously need to double-check this, review it some more, but I don't think my opinion on the matter will change--they're most likely mislynches.)

The cases about Elsa and TWIE don't just revolve around lurking. There's multiple contradictions and inconsistencies that have been pointed out which you continue to ignore. I know that you enjoy tunnelling on your own reads but you're really ignoring any other case that's put up that isn't created by you or based around one of your FoS's. I'm going to echo DarthYoshi's thoughts here, respond to the cases put against TWIE and Elsa, point out what you disagree with until you do so, seriously, Mastin, fuck off.

[Soben]

Simple laid out reasons for why we believe TheWayItEnds is mafia are listed below, SecretProject and Mastin I'm expecting you both to state which ones you have disagreements about.

• Excessive amount of fencsitting and refrainment from stating reads or doing anything that ressembles scumhunting.

• His excuse revolving around lack of setup understanding while not showing any initiative to look into it (ie. Wiki, Past games)

• Misrepresentation #1 - Him stating that we were yelling for a quicklynch to remove him when we asked him to provide more content intially.

• Contradiction #1 - Him stating he had strong-town reads in past games while also saying he doesn't want town-reads and doesn't believe town-tells exist.

• Contradiction #2 - Him stating that the reason for not voting us is that he doesn't want us to yell OMGUS (ie. He cares about his image) while also saying he doesn't care if his vote on Alex is bad (ie. He doesn't care about his image)

[Soben]

OMGUS doesn't make me look bad. It's the easiest way to degrade an argument before even reading into the argument, then I'm stuck having to justify my vote as something besides OMGUS, something it never was. It's an easy fucking out that I don't want to deal with.

So are you attempting to say that the main issue here is that you would have to justify your vote on solid grounds or reasoning, in what way is that an issue if you believe we're mafia? That's essentially saying - I suspect you but can't vote you because then I would have to actually come up with a reason!

If I point out that mastin's reasoning for WK scum happened after he was already pushing the wagon, and then go on to say that I would like to see the real reasons (if they exist). The only conclusion that I can come to from that is that I'm suspicious of the mastin push. That his push of the WK wagon looks like a scum push. That mastin could be scum.

Again, that's not making a conclusion, you're attempting to say your thoughts on Mastin relies soley on what he comes up with in relation to the WK wagon while completly ignoring everything else he's done in the game.

I read a normal. It involved 2 scum, a townie who was really scum as far as endgame when. 1-shot PR's and fakeclaiming out the ass.
The Vig claim sorta makes me believe that this game is not like that one.

Was that the only one you checked and you can please provide a link to it.

MR1.... You posted a meta case and called for votes because I wasn't "acting town enough". That's calling for a lynch as far as I see it.

Had you read what we actually said you would have seen: Prove my fos wrong if you are town, a legitimate defense would not be "irrelevant" to us. Basically what I want to know is "Why are you not being an active townie THIS game?" I don't care about previous games necessarily. They only serve to prove you are capable of better play as town. The fact you aren't helping out and you are able to is scummy. I'm willing to listen but you need to provide something worthwhile here.

You asked me to post a list of everyone so that I could narrow down to who the scum is. I refused. I said that I would not be providing a list because I don't care who town is, because the entirety of the scum game is to look town. "Put out towntells" Therefore, I feel that that sort of list is not going to help. And since I've already fucking explained this and you... what? forgot? Ignored it? When I find town... you'll be the fucking last to know. Because I won't fucking tell you. Because I'm not going to point out all the "towntells" and go look how fucking town this person is. That doesn't help me find scum.

Where did I ask you for a list, this is a legitimate question. Quote me to where I asked you for a list of everyone in the room, Protip: I didn't, not once, you're speaking out of your ass right now.

[Soben]

Put bluntly: I know I'm on to the correct scumteam, and that Elsa/.Alex/TWIE won't end well. I might not be exactly right, but I'm definitely on the right path.

I don't think I can make this any more clear - I've provided a list of things that make me believe TWIE is mafia that DOESN'T involve meta or his level of activity which are the reasons you don't want to lynch him. Now can you at least respond to those?

Why Krew should be lynched
1 • Buddied us when we looked the most town. Originally called Ironhead town then voted him with little reasoning a few posts later.
2 • Scum list contains alex, in a safe middle spot where he's not bussing too hard but he's still bussing. Implies there is 3 scum. Alex is obvscum which is why this point works.
3 • Misrepresenting everything I said about chainsawing
4 • in iso 46 goes back to Ironhead for his interactions with TOWN (jil is obvtown, mastin is probtown but I'll want him lynched probably D4 if the game isn't over after alex, krew, elsa, and TWIE are dead)
5 • tries to vig a null read instead of a weak scum read, blatant bandwagoning of the vig vote that's NOT alex to keep him alive longer
6 • generally not being much of a help to town, ignores reading most players in favor of focusing on only 4 or 5 of them.

Thank you for actually completing this.
1. I don't disagree that they buddied you however I fail to see that as a strong scum-tell. They didn't exactly contradict themselves in their vote of Ironhead, the reasoning for their inital unvote of him had to do with him providing reasonable content which isn't a town-tell.
2. See, here's the problem, you're essentially saying: He's mafia because he's mafia. Do you find it impossible that he could legitimatly suspect Alex as town?
3. Show links to this please.
4. How does his interactions with Iron make him mafia? Again you're doing the: He's mafia because he's mafia logic.
5. This is actually a decent point:

Wormy - Why do you want Elsa vigged?

6. You yourself have only focused on 4-5 players so I'm unsure how you see that as a particular scum-tell however I would agree that lately they haven't been providing that much content.

[Soben]

It's like you haven't read anything I've written.

That's not a fucking reply. Saying shit like this doesn't get us anywhere in the game. You state the only thing preventing you from voting me is the fact it would be called an OMGUS this means that you're implying there's actual reasons or a case you can present against my slot which you continue to avoid putting forward. Not just that but you're openly admitting the case or reasons you have to put forward will be ignored due to an OMGUS callage meaning you're admitting the reasons are weak.

Which.... to me. Looks like Meta *checks* yep. And a call for votes *checks* Yep.

Are you honestly attempting to say that you believe the entire post where we state several times that we're not certain on your lynch and we want you to provide content to prove our read otherwise is irrelevant?

[Soben]

Mastin, yeah I'm growing more and more impatient. I've supplied the reasons for why I beleive TWIE to be mafia which you stated you would respond to instead you continue to avoid doing so while repeating that you have a town-read on him.

[Soben]

I'm going to make this extremely brief, SecretProject, I pointed out a great deal of flawed logic in your reasoning for why Wormy is mafia, so either attest that, provide more points of stop attempting to push it so strongly. While you're at it can you actually provide legitimate reasoning behind Brokenscrapsscum because I'm not seeing it at all. I can understand you viewing TWIE's aggression to the case put against him as a slight-town tell but I'm still expecting you to respond to the points I put against him, we had a deal, follow through with it.

WormyKrew, can we get a list of reads that both heads agree on in your next post with added reasoning if that's possible.

DarthYoshi, you're attacking Secret for suggesting 3 scum because you believe it's possible that there's two scum-teams howver you realize that contradicts your reasoning from moving Elsa to town.

[Soben]

For the record I find myself agreeing with Alex here, I don't care how long or unreadable your content in your quick-topic is Mastin, I would highly appreciate you share it, just please for the love god put it in a spoiler!

[Soben]

Captain, we think you are town. I also have a concern that our lynch options may be too narrow. Both Regfan and I really don't like TWIE's reactions, but at the same time I at least can envision a universe where he flips town. I still think TWIE is quite likely scum though. One thing that sticks out to me is that as hard as we have been pushing on TWIE, the support for a TWIE lynch has been stagnant and slow to grow. That actually just reinforces our feelings that he will flip scum as its almost always harder to start a wagon on scum than on town.

That being said, if there is a compelling case for someone else I'd be willing to discuss it with R and I'm at least open-minded to other lynch options today. I've been afky the last couple days so I haven't been the one making all those logical annoying as hell posts from this slot. XD

[Soben]

Darth, if you have a link to that game with TWIE it would be helpful.

I agree with you about your concern about Ironhead's comment. What's wrong with rational town players? Yes, yes I get that Ironhead meant its not good to have players look town only because other players look scummy, but Ironhead himself said he had a strong town read on our slot so I'm not really sure what he's getting at.

[Soben]

TWIE, I have read through your games extensively, Scumhunter has only browsed through them, it was him asking for the link.

DY, I don't see that much ressemblence in his rage in that game and this game. Although he raged in that game to a degree his still provided ample content whereas in this game he's attempted to use rage to cover the fact he continues to post no content.

[Soben]

Mastin, believe me when I say that I completly understand reading into a players tone to attempt to work out their allignment because the truth is that tone is the hardest thing for mafia to continue to fake throughout a game. I do believe though that you've taken initial slight tone reflectors and exaggerated them massively to attempt to explain your reads when those instances of town-style town are minimal, weak and rare. If you're attempting to determine whether a player is town or not via their actual posts motivations what you should be looking for is what have they done in an attempt to help and propel town further into the game, by doing so I do indeed get a slight town-read from Jillyn and Alex therefore can understand your reads on them however I continue to be startled by your insistance that TWIE and Elsa are town. To further that of, your reasoning behind your DarthYoshi scum-read do not make any logical sense, it all revovles around 'gut' and relies heavily on player interactions which may be useful further into the game mean absolutely nothing in a situation like this.

[Soben]

Allow me to rephrase: Mastin, believe me when I say that I completly understand reading into a players tone to attempt to work out their allignment because the truth is that tone is the hardest thing for mafia to continue to fake throughout a game.

I do believe though that you've taken initial slight tone indicators and exaggerated them massively to attempt to explain your reads when those instances of town-style town are minimal, weak and rare.

If you're attempting to determine whether a player is town or not looking for the motivations behind the post while noting what have they done in an attempt to help and propel town further into the game is also crucial. By doing so I do indeed get a slight town-read from Jillyn and Alex therefore can understand your reads on them however I continue to be startled by your insistance that TWIE and Elsa are town.

Your reasoning behind your DarthYoshi scum-read does not make any logical sense, it all revovles around 'gut' and relies heavily on player interactions which may be useful further into the game mean absolutely nothing in a situation like this.

[Soben]

If I'm reading this correctly, "Town tone is weaker and harder to pick up" Not for me. For me, it's actually far easier to get TOWN tones than SCUM tones. Scum tones are quite hard for me to be sure of--I get a lot more False Positives for Scum Tone than I EVER do for Town Tones. (This might also explain why you think I'm exaggerating tone--because you primarily looked at the "Scum Case", and saw it there a lot. See above.)

You are indeed reading what I am saying wrong. I do agree that town tone is easier to pick up then scum tone. Though I believe the examples you've shown for town tone are

very very

weak though and I believe you're clinging to them to a point where it's becoming hurtful.

This is simple. I see in TWIE and Elsa the same thing I see in Monk, Gerhard/Captain (same thing, really), Jily, and--to some extent--Alex. As far as I'm concerned, they're pretty much one and the same.

This is untrue. The examples you've shown in relation to TWIE and Elsa's "Town Tone" stem purely from the RVS period, had you noticed any of their actions afterwards you would have noticed otherwise. The fact of the matter is you've decided very early on the game X, Y and Z are your reads and have literally closed your mind of to anything that dispproves that, an example of this in action is your continual refrainment from addressing the points I brought up about TWIE earlier.

Player interactions are important at ALL stages in the game. Admittedly, on Day One, I get a LOT of false positives for interactions between others. (Though this is another thing which doesn't work the other way--when I see a player who LACKS connections to other players, guess what? They're town. And I almost NEVER get false positives on THAT.) But when I look at things, I realize that I wasn't off. I had the right reasons, the correct logic, just formed the wrong conclusion from it. And upon review, frequently find the revised opinion, the revised take on things, to be more accurate. If that makes sense.

This is where I believe you fall down heavily as a player. Interactions are very important - Yes I agree because it helps to work out unlikley or likely partnerships giving you a direction to look into however a players individual scumminess is by far the most vital element to look into on day one. I believe you spend far too much time pondering on interactions and possible entire scum-teams and far too little attempting to explain your reads in coherent and logical form.

[Soben]

SecretProject, don't give me that "I don't answer all questions" bullshit, we agreed on a deal of presenting and addressing major issues and points in the other persons case. I've done so to yours however you still haven't shown me the respect to address what I've said about TWIE's.

[Soben]

Be totally honest here. If I gave you reasons for why I think that, and replied to every one of your bullet points, would it actually change your opinion? No matter how well-written an argument I made, you would still want him lynched. What's the point of replying to your post with more than my opinion on it as a whole then?

I can honest to god say that I would be willing to listen and take in any qualms with the case. On a different note, I have finals for the next two days so my activity will be spotty, Scumhunter will have to step in and take control.

[Soben]

Elsa, are you honestly attempting to say that you consider comments like 'this day is long and boring' as town-tells because it reads as an attempt to create reads that aren't disputable more than anything else. Furthermore, your case against Captain Coporal is extremely weak, you attempt to attack him while ignoring majority of his actions throughout the game and ignoring the fact that you yourself stated high suspicion of Alex before leaving. I fail to understand how you would ask for an extended V/LA period, have the day extended due to it and come back to complain about the day length which was caused by you.

Just had a conversation with Scumhunter and honestly he's worried that TWIE might be just bad town and is feeling far more comfortable moving our vote back to Elsa, her attempt to rush and complain about the day length WHILE NONE OF HER SUSPECTS ARE BEING VOTED reads as awful. I urge everyone to read her last post and move their vote to Elsa as well.

Unvote, Vote: Elsa. UnvigVote, VigVote: TWIE

[Soben]

Yeah, I do read SP's comments as town. This day has been far too long (I wouldn't say 'boring'). Being able to pull reliable, comprehensive arguments from 30+ pages of content IS difficult and it IS easy to get lost in the walls of text. I defy you to tell me otherwise.

The more information or content that occurs in a day the more there is to read to be able to determine others allignments the more you can use to create a case against them, it's simple logic really.

Did you miss the part where I said I'd be okay with any combo of vote/vig on alex/CC? Those are still my top 2. I go after CC instead of alex partially because there is a vig vote on alex right now.

You want the day to end, that's a undisputable fact, look at the votecount, neither of your suspects are being voted therefore you're happy with the day ending with neither of your suspects being lynched.

I honestly expected you, alex, and CC to come in and try to disparage my observations/case no matter what I said since you're tunneling pretty bad on me. Which of you are doing it as scum and which of you are doing it as town, I do not know, but I'd like to see what other people, with more objective opinions, think.

This is comlpetely untrue, if you returned and posted logical reasonable content I would have no means to be able to disaparge it however your content was piss weak. You state you do not know which of us are scum and which of us are town but again that's another blatant lie because you stated earlier you had a strong town-read on us and have just stated you have a scum-read on CC and Alex meaning you would have a clue in regards to which are scum or not.

Secret, Jillyn is keeping the vig-vote totals.

[Soben]

1. That's where you have to notice the difference between illogical irrelevant content and productive scumhunting content which has started to occur more recently.

2. I'll explain it simply: You state you have suspects which aren't being voted today, this means it's

highly highly

likely they won't be lynched. You state you want the day to end. Therefore you're saying you're comfortable with the day ending with one of your suspects NOT being lynched.

3. You stated you didn't know which one of the group voting you was mafia which infers you don't have any strong feelings about it while also pushing that two of them are scum, there's the contradiction. You're attempting to meta Scumhunter (No offence to him) the less active head against a hydra account with a head you've never witnessed play, also if your town-read on us faded completly then why refrain from stating so? I am open-minded to a good case being presented however there hasn't been any recently, if I'm being full-steam-ahead illogical then point out my logical errors.

Anyway, test starting in 5 minutes. I won't be online for the next day or so.

[Soben]

Can't respond to anything else at the moment since I am in the middle of a final exam cramming (Which ends in 12 hours from now) but I agree completely with Mastin we need to stop attempting to push lynches that have no chance of gaining traction and instead hone in on a few suspects to reach a compromise.

Although I don't agree with some of the following names as I have town-reads on them I hereby agree that one of TWIE, Wormy or Broken should be todays lynch and that one of Alex, Elsa and TWIE should be one of the vig-targets for tonight.

[Soben]

Alright, finished my finals today so I'll give this game a brief re-read either today or tommorow however given the incoming deadline I'm comfortable moving this around:

Unvote, Vote: TWIE

UnvigVote, VigVote: Elsa

[Soben]

Soben... I notice this post never got a response. Or.... are you still attempting to misconstrue it to fit your agenda?

I never got around to responding to this but now that I have time I'll go ahead. The request wasn't for you to state reads on everyone in the room but rather to at least provide some thoughts on your reasoning behind town or scum reads, the difference I had no care about. Essentially it was just begging you to provide some productive content to ease my scum-read of you which you continue to refrain from doing.

[Soben]

Although I am ecstatic and overjoyed at the sudden swing of votes towards TWIE I would like to request that no-one instant hammers after TWIE claims, I would appreciate some time to mull over it and get a final list of reads in before night begins. Speaking of which Jill should be back from V/LA soon and if it's not too much trouble I would like her to post an updated list of vig-votes.

[Soben]

Sigh, for a second I thought people were actually going to lynch correctly. Secret, if you're going to continue to insist and drive this Sleep lynch home can you at least do me the favour of moving your vig-vote to Elsa please.

SleepyKrew, claim, now.

[Soben]

Secret, which head said #895, I need to know who to avoid playing with in the future.

No one is hammering until Sleepy has claimed and we've had time to discuss his claim, I also agree with Irons point that TWIE should attempt to actually address the case against him and claim as well before the day ends.

[Soben]

TWIE is scum attempting to lurk this day out, he's been online multiple times in the past 48 hours while avoiding posting in this thread, if I die I expect you to at least strongly consider lynching him and Elsa.

[Soben]

Captain, the change of wagon had a lot to do with near-deadline scrambling I believe, the fact that TWIE has continued to refrain from stating his opinion on Wormy despite their obvious competition for leading wagon says volumes and people need to take their heads out of their asses and realize the case against him doesn't actually revolve around meta only but rather his continual anti-town and scummy actions.

There's a high likelihood that despite Wormys reduction of content as the day has progressed and his avoidance of this thread he's going to flip town and although I'm tempted to continue to attempt to defend his lynch Scumhunter is telling me that it's futile. Secret and Mastin, consider this as a begging for you to return the favour or strike some form of compromise for tommorow if I live that long:

Vote: WormyKrew.

[Soben]

Considering the thread is likely to be closed in the next few hours I want to use this as a last chance to repeat my reads incase they aren't incredibly obvious by now.

Strong Town Reads:

Secret, Mastin, Jillyn, Yoshi and Captain.

Weaker Town Reads:

Brokenscraps and Ironhead (Scumhunter suspects Ironhead though).

Null Reads:

Aldusskel and WeirdAlex.

Strong Scum Reads:

Elsa and TWIE.

[Soben]

The reasoning frankly is simple, throughout the past few days multiple players have acted in an extremely anti-town manner for the sole reason of boredom and wanting the day to end. Continual actions like this give scum ammunition to use in regards to creating cases later in the game. The only way to prevent such actions from continuing to occur is to end the day as well as openely showing Secret and Mastin that their constant tunneling towards Wormy a leading vote-getting throughout the entire day is wrong and hope for better tommorow.

Furthermore Wormys avoidance of this thread in critical point where it was vital for him to openely explain what makes him town and why TWIE is indeed a better lynch than him would have led towards his hammer regardless allowing us no extra information than what we currently have.

[Soben]

Sleepy, Mastins case wasn't the reason players were voting you, far from it, everyone agreed to a degree that Mastins interactions and case was terribad. The reasoning for the bandwagon against you stemmed from disagreement over your early game play as well as your OMGUS on SecretProject when he began suspecting you. This was something you continued to refrain from properly explaining and I'm going to go ahead and take a guess by saying that there was a complete lack of reasoning for it and that was something you didn't want to admit.

Ironhead, for the record if you believed the case against TWIE was far stronger and you didn't want the day to end before he responded to it then can you explain your change of your towards WormyKrew while not requesting a chance to reply before the day ended.

Pedit: Captain is correct, both TWIE and Elsa need rope.

[Soben]

Elsa again attempts to work with the self-preservation via making an appeal to emotion to Jillyn over who her vig target should be rather thatn stating her opinion on the hammer, lynch choice and reactions. Sleepy, if you believe people were following Mastins cases or opinions and that soley then how come no one apart from Mastin has stated suspicion towards DarthYoshi.

[Soben]

Been waiting for Scumhunter to pop online ever since day started, still am. I'll try and pester him to get online tommorow and we should have our thoughts up then.

[Soben]

I've continued to wait for Scumhunter to pop online however our difference in timezones seems to be hurting significantly right now, I'll continue to wait just a little longer before I go into my reads in regards to the night kill and the reactions to day-start. I tend to agree with Alduskkel, I don't believe that Jillyns blocking has any relation to the allignment of the person she was likely to shoot. Shooting confirmed her as town which is something that scum would want to avoid whenever possible.

Mastin, pushing the idea that the counter-wagon was an attempt to save Wormy making TWIE confirmed town is completely incorrect however he does have a point in relation to Elsa being more likely town. The entire idea of a counter-wagon always being town relies heavily on the fact that the person pushing it was the alternate wagon choice. In this particular case it would rely on the strength of Wormys push on the TWIE wagon which was extremely weak. In fact his vote reads as a last ditch attempt to seem pro-town rather than actually getting TWIE lynched, furthermore both TWIE and Sleepys lack of effort and avoidance of the thread near the deadline makes perfect sense if it were to be a double scum wagon.

[Soben]

@WormyKrew, my vote isn't set in stone. It's d1 after all. I wouldn't mind going after a lurker that could be a liability later.
What are your thoughts on TheWayItEnds? Oh and can you explain your town read on Aldusskel?

Town reads (from strongest to weakest): jilynne1991, ironhead, secret project, darth yoshi, captain corporal (much of this is based on my read on gerhard), mastin2
Very Slightly leaning town/null: weirdalexv, Monk
Very Slightly leaning scum/null: Aldusskel, TheWayitEnds
Scum reads (from strongest to weakest): WormyKrew, ElsaVonSpielburg (lurking is a scumtell from her imo)

This guy was on to something imo. ^ ^ ^

Regfan. I'm here buddy. Sorry been in a bit of a drunken V/LA haze the last couple days and let you handle the game for the most part before that. Now that Wormy has flipped scum its time to go back to out slot's reads before I let you talk me into that "gut town read" on Wormy. Let's chill in the QT and discuss things. Send me a message on MSN if you see this in the next 30 mins or so.

[Soben]

I think one thing we learned from Wormy flip is that Iron is solid town. I had strong doubts about him before that flip.

[Soben]

Yoshi, I remember specifically when Iron jumped on the WK wagon. It wasn't a time that would make sense for a scum partner to jump on the wagon really. I remember speaking with Regfan when Iron jumped on the WK wagon and my suspicion of Iron went up significantly because I was in the mindset that WK was town at that point (thanks to Regfan's misread). It was a hydra disagreement that was quite strong. So strong in fact that Regfan felt compelled to list WK as one of our 4-5 town reads in his initial post even though I disagreed.
Regfan's town read on WK was based on meta/gut and even though I didn't completely agree with it or understand I decided to go along with it. Also, I have a tendency to be a bit lazy in games sometimes and with Regfan as a hydra partner it actually can increase my laziness as he is almost always a very active player.

I was V/LA this weekend in a 72 hour drunken stupor, but since my return I have had the opportunity to speak with Regfan and WK's flip actually make us suspect Elsa a fair bit less than we had previously and we both very much suspect TWIE still.

We felt WK's VT claim could potentially have been either an attempt to sacrifice the weaker goon role for a stronger mafia role held by TWIE or that it was a gambit to hope that things would go a little like this:
1. WK claims VT
2. People unvote because "why would scum ever claim VT there"
3. Wagon commences on TWIE.
4. TWIE can claim pr and vote moves elsewhere

^ This chain of events would likely be my thought process as to a last ditch effort if I were in WK's scum shoes with a TWIE partner. We also felt WK/TWIE weren't ever really pushing on each other unless it was out of necessity. We think WK-scum would have pushed a lot harder on a TWIE-town lynch yesterday. Regfan may be able to organize our thoughts into a more condensed and pretty looking case with more evidence but that is the gist of it really.

As such,

vote: TWIE

[Soben]

Elsa, don't get me wrong the WK scum flip certaintly has changed my reads to a degree and forced me to stand back and rethink a lot of things, the upmost being a growing town-read on you however bussing implies a push towards the other player, this didn't occur at all. Reading back through the thread TWIE avoided the WK wagon whenever possible and didn't vote him even to prevent his own lynch from occuring. WK held of voting TWIE throughout a large portion of the day as well and only voted at the end with a very weak attempt to prevent himself being lynched. TWIE's continued absence and refrainment from posting anything ressembling content continues to strength the constant scum read we've had on him.

[Soben]

I plan on having a discussion with Scumhunter later today because given my growing town-read on Elsa I have a severe lack of suspects aside from TWIE. I still haven't been able to make heads or tails over my read of Alex, Alduskkel and Brokenscraps after the Wormy flip.

Mod,

both TWIE and Jillyn are need of a prod and both have been online several times in the past few days. Thanks in advance.

[Soben]

Welcome Twistedspoon, our heads include Scumhunter and Regfan. What should be noticed outright is that Twistedspoons intial replace in post was created before he recieved his role therefore it provides a completely unbiased view of the occurances thus far however at the same time it means that his allignment can not be judged over it. His following posts however were created when knowing his role thus being allignment related.

As for an answer to my thoughts on his slot, I had a town-read on Monk whereas Scumhunter had a scumread on it. I had a stronger town read on Brokenscraps initially however it decreased rapidly with his decline in activity though your recent content has helped continue my intial read on that slot. I share multiple of your town-reads however I cannot comprehend your town-read on TWIE on the basis that Mastin believes it because the sole reason Mastin is of that opinion is that he thinks it's impossible for the two leading wagons on day one to be scum which is an illogical argument considering how both wagons came to be. I also want to look further into Jillyn because although Scumhunter believes she's town I have serious doubts considering her constant change in attitude and the way the claim went about.

TWIE, I haven't misconstrued anything, everything I've stated has been backed up and just stating that it's wrong doesn't help change my mind, your continual lack of providing any relevant information the game is damning in itself. Though right now I'm interested in you posting what you saved with your intended WK hammer.

WeirdAlex, I am completely aware of the importance of looking at the reaction of dead scum players in comparison to players alive however I do no understand how that alone can change all of your reads especially when the interactions were minimal. If anything Ironheads interactions with Wormy shine him in a positive light therefore I am baffled by your FoS directed towards him.

[Soben]

Mastin, can you attempt to explain your town read on TWIE using actual logic, not flawed logical which you ignore the flaws in it being pointed out by other people. Furthermore I would like for you to attempt to explain your scum read on us without saying PoE.

TwistedSpoon, I haven't ignored your mammoth of a catch up post but there's a lot brought up in it that I want to discuss with Scumhunter before reaching any conclusions or judgements.

[Soben]

I certaintly believe I underestimated the strategic mind that you have for the game but I do believe that as scum you were incredibly obvious via the lack of real content and other facts in that game which is a striking difference to that game and this. It's one of the reasons why your subsequent posts assure me that your slot is town.

I don't doubt that your intial post that took you two hours was written with a town mindset, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that was written with an unbiased view of the game so everything there is natural.

[Soben]

Nothing is wrong with your naturallyness at all. I shall attempt to use an excuse to properly explain it though. I replaced deep into a game that was near deadline once and due to the impending deadline I fully caught up with the thread and had my entire catch up post prepared believing the slot I was replacing was town, the slot was scum. I posted my natural entire catch up post which players gave me a strong town-read for and I cruised through a lot of that game.

She stated that she knew what a quick topic was but that she didn't know QT stood for quick topic, not entirely sure if I believe it but I'll take a good look at it again later.

[Soben]

Twisted, I have a relatively strong town read on Yoshi at the moment, if you want it explained I'd be more than willing to go into it. I wouldn't say that I greatly suspect Jillyn right now but I do have some serious reservations about her. In the alternate game where she asked what's a QT it was incredibly obvious via the Mafia QT that she was playing the newb-card to attempt to further herself in the game meaning she obviously isn't as newb as she attempts to let of. I do take Alex's question directed towards Wormy as a town-slip however I wouldn't consider it to be that strong of one and certaintly not one that moves my read of him from null to strong town.

Mastin, you're attempting to read too far into the night kill and missing the obvious fact that Secret pushed towards Wormy throughout the entire day and therefore was essentially clear and impossible for mafia to push against whereas I spend a portion of day one with a town read on Wormy and actually defended him. The choice should have been relatively easy for them however prior to the flip I stated the entirety of my reads expecting to be night killed (For the sole reason that I thought Wormy was going to flip town). You do indeed need to take of the tunnel vision goggles and re-read through the thread because I am expecting some serious and logical reasoning behind why you believe TWIE is town.

[Soben]

Alex, I believe what Iron is attempting to say when he mentions obfuscation has to do with his belief that your posts were created to attempt to confuse us however he can correct me if I'm wrong. If I may ask what 'townslip' are you refering to when it comes to Jillyn because if you're refering to the 'Whats a QT' I fail to see how you can consider that a townslip given the fact she did that as scum in an alternate game.

My experience and Twisteds experience with SleepyKrew all involve him being a solo mafia. Sleepy replaced into the last mafia slot when Twisted was already lynched in that game therefore I am unable to determine his likelihood to buss or not.

[Soben]

Alex, when I asked about the townslip I was refering to you saying this "Hm...changes a bit. With the jilynne-townslip" also I believe you've misread TwistedSpoons post, I suggest re-reading "Does krew need to say this to his own partner? I think not".

[Soben]

I agree that all of the smaller wagons need to die right now because the amount of undirected focus isn't helping us at all. In regards to the night kill I can think of multiple reasons that may explain the death including mafia fearing shooting towards us would incriminate them, believing that leaving us alive may lead to us mslynching, believing our defence of Sleepy yesterday would lead to our lynch, believing it's likely doctor was on us, believing Sleepy was more likely a PR then us and many more. Which one is the case I'm currently unsure however delving into and spending time on it is pointless and unproductive at the current moment.

I thought this in another game. Not this EXACTLY, But something similar. I was wrong. However, my thought of "the counterwagon to a scum wagon is NOT scum" proved RIGHT in said game.

Logic dictates that a counterwagon doesn't have any increased likelihood to be town if it's pushed by town and not scum involved. Wormys lack of participation towards the TWIE wagon means that TWIE isn't any more likely to be town with Wormys flip it's rather the opposite. I cannot understand how you're willing to rule this out and forget it because one game in the past didn't have two scum leading wagons. You're essentially saying X didn't happen in game Y therefore X cannot be occuring in game Z. You claim to have responded towards your town read on TWIE but you haven't at all, you've attempted to cover it up with illogical garbage rather than any form of solid reasoning.

Alex has repeatly town-told recently, his misread of Twisteds quote is completely understandable and geninue and I don't see him mistaking it's content as scum especially with the amount of attention drawn towards him as there currently is. I had a conversation with Scumhunter about it (Not really a conversation, more of a QT discussion) and he agrees with the read as well. Oddly enough my leading two suspects are both TWIE and Aludskkel however Alduskkel is mostly due to PoE rather than anything else making me much more comfortable maintaining my vote on TWIE. I'm out for the rest of today however I want to see more content from Captain and Jilllyn badly.

[Soben]

It's not just one game. I've seen it in COUNTLESS games. Heck, this theory isn't even mine, originally. I saw it (forget where), and borrowed it because I realized the logic behind it was solid and right. It has yet to fail me. It's beyond a Mastin Logic tell. It's "Common Effing Sense"-tell. (There are two exceptions. 1: SK wagons. 2: Multi-faction games. Short of those, it simply doesn't happen.)

Alright, if it's happened in countless games please provides links to the occurances. Secondly I want you to answer the following question for me: If a player were to suspect person 1 and 2 with person 1 flipping mafia does that mean person 2 is any less likely to be mafia then say person 3 and 4? Simpl yes or no will suffice.

There's also the fact that Soben is voting TWIE above Ald. TWIE's chances of being scum? (To me, 0%.) No more than 40%. Ald's chances of being scum? No LESS than 50%. See the difference? I'll continue Protecting TWIE To the End.

I don't agree that one of Yoshi and Alduskkel HAVE to be mafia. I infact have a strong town-read on Yoshi as does Scumhunter and believe it's possible the second scum could be outside of Alduskkel. Furthermore where do you draw that TWIE cannot be more than 40% mafia, you're making up statistics and then attempting to force your pathetic reads down our throats while ignoring all of the points brought up over and over against him.

[Soben]

None off the top of my head, of course, since this is just things I've observed over countless games. It's very easy to prove, but I'll need to track down examples. Heck, just for you, I'll limit it to Mini Normals. Not right now, of course. This will take a few hours minimum to do.

Thanks, this should make for an interesting read.

If two players are wagoned, and one flips scum, then the other is town. This is what I'm trying to prove. If two players are suspected, and one flips scum, then the other is town. What you're about to twist the argument into.

You're missing the point completely, the only difference between suspecting two players and two players being wagoned that could change the effect is the actions that mafia took during the wagon, to prove that you believe TWIE is town due to the counter wagon you have to prove that it was indeed scum that pushed it therefore you have to show that the players pushing it are scum.

Instead of doing this you're attempting to use circular logic and saying that TWIE is town because scum pushed it and the players who pushed it are scum because TWIE is town.

But to me, quite frankly, it seems like Soben's posts have changed tone not once, but now twice. On day one, it seemed like Soben was playing a little conservatively. On day two, it seemed like Soben had quite frankly become arrogant. After I revealed my Soben suspicion, said arrogance has become condescendance.

Firstly how do you believe a change in attitude is allignment related? Secondly the reasoning behind my change in attitude should be incredibly obvious, it's caused by your complete lack of logic and your insistance that your reads are correct while not properly responding to anything else put forward.

[Soben]

Mastin, Regfan has been making most of the posts lately and he can come off a bit arrogant at times. I have a feeling it could be a non-alignment correlation to his repressed homosexuality but I'm not sure how this has relevance to the game.

As for fosing us because we appear too town and didn't die n1, LOL, sorry I guess? You need to take your paranoid glasses off although I don't blame you for putting them on for a bit. R and I are having a hard time coming up with multiple strong scumreads as well so ya I hear you.

[Soben]

Talk to me, I'm the PR-side of the hydra here

[Soben]

To reinforce not to read too much into the tone of some of our posts, what I would say is, just think: I (Scumhunter) had a strong scum read on WK (my strongest actually) but when R subbed in to hydra with me, my voice on that kind of got drowned out not only in the QT but also in our posts in-thread. "Our" first read post on WK had him as town...And I'm not really one to easily get drowned out usually. I'm saying this not as a criticism of you Regfan, its more just to try and explain how strong your opinion can be...

[Soben]

Oh, but still Mastin, you should look into TWIE more.

^^

[Soben]

rageragerageragerage, im just making the double posting worse but yea obviously wrong account above.

[Soben]

Mastin, double wagons on scum can happen d1. In fact it has aleady happened in one of my games on here. I'd like to submit into evidence this game: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17230

Now that I have proven double wagons on scum can happen, do you see how your whole reasoning that "there must be scum on the TWIE wagon" is based on a faulty premise?

Nothing about Wormy's flip makes TWIE necessarily anything as they had very little interaction. If anything the fact that Wormy never pushed on TWIE hard despite TWIE being the other viable lynch option yesterday doesn't make me think TWIE is town whatsoever...

Is there a reason you think we are scum other than voting TWIE?

[Soben]

Ok, I eagerly await your case on us then. I don't doubt that "counterwagons" are more often on town. Well hell, most players in the game are town and if there is a wagon on one scum already, the odds are overwhelming (via random distribution even!) that the other wagon is on town. Assuming 2 scum of the 12 players possible for the counterwagon that makes a counterwagon on town 5/6 of the time. What I'm trying to say is you have no logic or no proof whatsoever that TWIE has to be ANYTHING. You are basing who to fos based on a faulty assumption.

Friendly advice that you can or cannot take: You might want to take your blinders off of the counterwagon must be "scum-driven on a townie" idea and start thinking outside the box and more along the lines of the individual situation that is this game. In this game, WK flipped scum, so now what? Basing your reads and what to do next on rote tactics based on common situations is pretty shallow and takes out the human interaction part of the game, you know the part where you get reads on other actual human beings playing the game as opposed to reads on the situation. K enough distraction, do your worst to us.

[Soben]

Scumhunter has shown some reservations on my Twistedspoon town-read in our QT and I can see where he's coming from with it though I still maintain that Twistedspoon is much more likely town than scum. Despite Mastins obvious tunneling without reasoon I still find all of his actions to come from a town movitated mindset and currently have him as one of my strongest town-reads.

The past few pages has increased and strengthed my town reads on both Alex and DarthYoshi to the point where I would be absolutely shocked if they were to be flip scum however Jillyns lack of activity while joining alternate games is immensely frustrating and slightly suspicious, I want to hear her thoughts on everyone in the room in her next post. I really need to read into Alduskkel because the only reason I consider him to be a suspect at the moment is due to PoE and continued nullness from his posts. If anyone can attempt to summarize the arguments against him excluding the one of him or yoshi has to be mafia one I would greatly appreciate it.

[Soben]

Believe me a Jillyn wagon and lynch is something I've considered multiple times but each and every time I do I reach the conclusion that it isn't a good idea, although her actions are suspicious I don't mind them all to be scum motivated just outright lazyiness.

[Soben]

Iron, the reasons I'm uncomfortable with a Jillyn lynch today include the fact that her actions read as laziness more then scummy. When I read through her mafia game to find out what her meta was like it was very apparent that she was capable and willing to put in the effort needed furthermore her desire to be lynched earlier than later reads as a town-tell. Jillyn if your policy is to pay less attention and focus in games that you're town because it's boring for the love of god please don't join any more games, you need to deal with your prior commitments first.

I just realized my reasoning behind the 'WK vig-voted Elsa therefore Elsa is town' is complete rubbish, WK would have known of the existance of a roleblocker therefore knowing that no vigshot would go through. With that said I'm still leaning town on Elsa but badly need a conversation with Scumhunter.

[Soben]

@Soben: Would like to hear your thoughts on the Ald case in outline, since you asked for it but chose not to comment here.

Waiting for Scumhunter to come online so we can go through it together, shouldn't be too long though I fear he'll be drunk when he comes online.

[Soben]

Apologies for my absence, I was babysitting and had limited access to the internet on the past few days. I have had a conversation with Scumhunter in regards to the Ald case and he sees it very much. Wormys avoidance of mentioning him with the exception of his reads list would make perfect sense if they were partners furthermore I understand that continual null posting leads to scum more times than not. At the same time we are both more confident in TWIE scum and await his replacements posts before even considering changing our vote to Ald.

On a side note Scumhunter has shown extreme paranoia of CC recently and is near insistent that CC is the best lynch for today which I don't see being the case at all however I very much want more content from him about the leading cases and wagons.

[Soben]

CC, I'll let Scumhunter go into why he believes you're a good lynch candidate for today however I believe it revolves around your minimal effort and lack of scumhunting. I do VERY much agree that Jillyn is being allowed to coast far too much and even though I beleive she's town at the current moment more effort and time needs to be put into this game from her otherwise she should replace out in the best interest of the town. I don't understand the continual stating that WK vig-votting Elsa is a town-tell when it would be abundantly obvious to him that Jillyn would be roleblocked therefore there was never any threat of it leading towards his own partner being shot but at the same time I don't have a strong read on Elsa either way right now.

I have to agree with Mastin, Post #1189 by Alduskkel was all over the place. It involved him pointing out decently strong town-tells from Alex and Yoshi and then progressing to cast a level of suspicion and questioning upon them later in the post along with a vote placed on Alex with a real lack of reasoning for the change of mind. I fail to understand what he attempts to gain by linking WK and SP and stating that there was a lack of hard interactions between them because there very clearly was furthermore he avoids taking any real stances on the more active or vocal players in the game and progresses to FoS'ing certain lurkers which is reasonable if he can explain how their level of lurking or contentless posting is a scum-tell but isn't for others such as Elsa or TWIE. With all that said I don't find the post particulary scummy, just bad and I'm uneasy with any consideration of a quicklynch when content is actually starting to pick up in the thread.

[Soben]

Soben has a good point I hadn't considered an Elsa-Krew-Jily scumteam, but it would make some sense in a way :/. If jily replaced out i'd be a happy camper

I don't believe that they're scum together, their interactions throughout today show that it's highly unlikely for them to be partners however I believe it's entirely possible that one of them are mafia (Being Elsa), they just aren't my stronger suspects at the moment.

I've actually been somewhat suspicious of wierdalex for much of the game. Check my wall, for instance. The key thing to note here is that the town tell from alex and the scum tell from DY are isolated incidents.

It's of my opinion and several other players that Alex has started to town-tell quite strongly throughout the later half of the day, can you state what you believe in his posts (Apart from his suspicion of yourself) makes him likely mafia as opposed to town.

Which players, by the way, do you specifically want me to talk about? I'm around, and if I can do it quickly enough I'll tell you what I think about them. But it is past 2 A.M. and I'm not at my most coherent.

Your overall reads on all players (Ironhead, Mastin ect.) would be highly appreciated and in particular your read on TWIE and CC in more detail would be nice.

[Soben]

However, if Ald is indeed town, and he genuinely thinks Alex or CC need to be lynched TODAY, claiming could potentially help that cause. That he has not done so makes me think he is not that sincere in his attempts to lynch them.

I share these thoughts, claiming earlier is much more optimal than later as it allows time to look elsewhere whereas a last minute claim could potentially lead to a blitz vote occuring due to deadline issues and is something that needs to be avoided.

Alduskkel, I don't care if you prefer to refrain from claiming until intent to hammer is put forward, you need to claim in your next post. Refusal to do so will be treated as a scum-claim.

Also. I'll continue Protecting Jily, CC, Alex, Elsa, AND TWIE from lynches, since they're ALL town.

Jillyn, Alex and to a degree Elsa I can understand and agree with. CC, I agree with however Scumhunter suspects him quite strongly so I'll put him aside for now. TWIE, no, you seriously need to attempt to explain this town-read to me because I continue to fail to see it.

Soben's 1204. Particularly, the second paragraph. Related to Ald being scum, Soben points out a great deal which is condemning towards Ald...and yet, doesn't show support for a lynch on Ald. (Calling it a quicklynch when we're 3 days from the original deadline? HOW ON EARTH DOES THAT FIT ANY DEFINITION OF QUICK?!?)

It's a quicklynch because we still have no content from TWIEs slot throughout the entire of today and he's still my leading suspect by far. I wouldn't state that I directly oppose an Ald lynch as PoE leads towards him being likely scum however his recent posts make me slightly uneasy about his lynch and I look forward to you going into your case on him in more detail.

But I'm sure of it, now.

The Scumteam for Mini 1180 is WormyKrew, Alduskkel, and Soben

.

You continue to somehow manage to win my hatred, I'll give you a chance at redemption. Lets say the mod walked into the room right now and stated that Ald and myself were confirmed town, what would your reads then be, this is a serious question.

[Soben]

There's only two scum in the game, Twisted. Well, two alive, anyway. Everyone else is town. And since I've nailed both of them, to me that means that everyone except those two are as far as I'm concerned quite frankly Confirmed Town.

Confidence does not breed truth, you numbskull. Lay off the kool-aid sir.

[Soben]

I think Krew is on L-2.

Considering putting on L-1 for some pressure. Would that be a good idea or a bad idea? (This is all assuming he's on L-2)

If someone puts Krew at L-1 and Secret Project doesn't wait for a claim, I will be mad. Don't do it, SP.

Captain, I explained to Regfan that the main reason I suspect you was mostly from a PoE of our town reads and from a review of your play you didn't really give me any reason to think you are town. You hadn't really contributed much of note yesterday and

what really makes me feeling strange is that you specifically mentioned next to nothing about the WK wagon for the entirety of d1

. What makes it particularly interesting is that you had no problem commenting on both the TWIE and Elsa wagons but strangely ignored the WK wagon for the most of the day. And what struck me as odd is that you clearly knew the wagon was going on. As quoted above you said you were thinking of putting Krew at L-1 for some pressure. Well a) that defeats the purpose of "pressure" votes and b) it appears it could very well be scum-motivated trying to show a willingness to lynch a scum partner for later in the game. If you really wanted to "pressure" him you would be asking WK questions and at least commenting on the wagon and suspicions on him that took up a lot of our time and ultimately led to his lynch day 1. It strikes me as strange that these two quotes were the most you ever said about WK yesterday really.


@Mastin, I understand the idea of being paranoid of players who appear obv-town to lots of players. I don't mind the skepticism really. All I ask is that today and going forward you consider your suspicions and temper them with a bit of logic. Think about why you really suspect us...is it because you think we are scum or you are scared of the potential influence we have if we are scum? Which is the greater reason you are expressing doubt? If it is truly, and I mean truly, because you think we are scum, go ahead and present a solid case. I'm willing to listen and to explain our actions to you. I'm not saying you must have us in obv town status because I do think a bit of paranoia and questioning never hurt anyone, self-included. However, your comments like "WK, Ald, Soben are the 3 confirmed scum" makes it impossible for Regfan to listen to anything you say and it will annoy me at some point too if it continues. If you have a real case on us to present, please, be my guest.

I would be very very surprised personally if the scum weren't in [CC, TWIE, Ald, Elsa]
Not really sure I like this Ald wagon tbh. We'd be willing to hammer pending a claim, but meh, personally I'd like to go for CC today. Reg thinks an Ald lynch is a good lynch but he'd probably be 3rd on my list to lynch today. Seeing as our vote is doing nothing right now and I regretted not stating and standing by my opinion more yesterday I'm going to go ahead and

unvote, vote: CC

. If Reg has a problem with it I'm sure he will qq about it to me in the QT the way he has been about mastin. XD

[Soben]

Oh and Ald, I doubt the wagon will shift off you without a claim anyways, so you might as well claim tbh.

[Soben]

There's only two scum in the game, Twisted. Well, two alive, anyway. Everyone else is town. And since I've nailed both of them, to me that means that everyone except those two are as far as I'm concerned quite frankly Confirmed Town.

Confidence does not breed truth, you numbskull. Lay off the kool-aid sir.

Hai mastin, SH here. Don't get your panties in a bunch loL.

Oh hai, have you noticed we have mostly the same reads? Oh my goodness, how could that be, coming from a scumball like me?! (/sarcasm)
In fact I'd say R and I both very much agree with your town reads at the moment. Let's be friends *buddy* *buddy*. If for no other reason it will make R rage in the QT <3.

[Soben]

BTW, CC went in a few days from saying he didn't see the case on Ald to putting Ald at L-1 and demanding a claim. If Ald flips scum, I smell a bus.

Yes, I noticed this too. CC is scummy regardless of Aldusskel's alignment really. Notice how CC commented on lots of wagons yesterday but basically ignored WK almost completely! I much prefer a CC lynch over an Ald lynch.

@everyone, Reread CC's interaction with WK and tell me it doesn't make you go O.o He is clearly aware of the WK wagon but doesn't comment on WK's alingment or really try to scumhunt him at all. Proof that he is aware of the wagon is that he stated he wanted to vote WK for pressure, but never explains why, nor follows through on it.

Right now, my gut says Ald is going to flip town and that scum is CC + one of [TWIE, Elsa, jilynne]

Things that make me think Ald will flip town:
-CCs scummy support of it
-Ald still not claiming to try and get votes off him
-Ald's focus with all his posts on outing his reads more than being overly concerned with votes on him

Yes, I know its a bit of a change of stance to be strongly opposed to an Ald lynch, but that is what my gut is telling me and I always regret when I don't say what I'm thinking. I want to lynch CC. Iso CC guys. -___-

@CC, if I'm wrong, can you please explain your lack of commenting on WK d1? also why you support an Ald lynch?

[Soben]

Mastin, I would agree with you in saying the speed that a wagon gains ground is a good indicator of the allignment of the player being bandwagoned however it only works as an indicator when there's a reasonable amount of mafia remaining and given the fact that at maximum there's two their ability to generate and increase the speed of a bandwagon is minimal.

With that said if you continue to believe Ald is mafia then you're stating that there's only one mafia vote on the CC wagon, one vote alone doesn't change the speed of the wagon and if you believe we're mafia then you're stating that the speed of the wagon is scummy due to you believing the first vote on it is mafia which makes no logical sense.

I'm not comfortable with CC being at L-1 and am currently in the process of having a conversation with Scumhunter (It's a slow back and forth in our QT, he's at work) about his read on CC which I still don't see or understand at all. Furthermore CC's reactions don't make sense of being scum with Elsa, Jillyn and Ald leaving his only real potential partner being TWIE.

Unvote

Pedit: Wow was I cut, going to address the above posts now.

[Soben]

And here I thought that the person I most needed to Defend was TWIE, that Captain would be in the middle. (And obviously, Twisted would be at the bottom of the priority list--it's hard to explain why Twisted's town, but mostly everyone sees him as town, anyway. The other two...) APPARENTLY NOT.

I don't see anyone in particular stating they have suspicions of Twisted therefore spending time elaborating on your town-read on him this close to the deadline is a waste of time, I would much rather you spend that time attempting to explain your TWIE town read and Alduskkel scum read.

I'm buying TWIE town from you mastin. I like your counter-wagon argument.

You'll need to explain this because it's been gone over multiple multiple times, the counter-wagon argument lies on the idea that mafia were pushing the alternate wagon and considering Iron, myself and a few others were the players taking part in the TWIE wagon and you maintain a strong town read on all of us I cannot see how the counter-wagon argument would buy you over.

[Soben]

R, we need to talk in the QT. D:

[Soben]

With 2 scum left, if CC is in fact scum, how much stock can we really take in how fast the wagon takes? That would mean there is just 1 scum in the other 10 of us or whatever. Bandwagon speed tells is overrated like all hell. Still i do want to hear from CC.

[Soben]

Scumhunter, don't get me wrong. I think you're a great player. You're playing amazingly regardless of your alignment.

Apparently not, if you think so strongly we are scum, we would be playing a terrible scum game. -___-

Also, I'm going to refrain from posting more til I get home in about an hour and a half and have a chance to discuss things in more depth with R. We have a bit of a disagreement with our vote atm.

[Soben]

alex, both of our heads agree that Mastin is likely town. That doesn't mean we have to agree with his logic or follow his reads whatsoever.

The logic of "WK lynch was hard to get support for and he flipped scum, so Ald lynch is good too" is lol bad fail logic. It is in the same thought process as "counterwagons are usually town when scum is lynched, so whoever the counterwagon is confirmed town". It's the worst type of results-oriented thinking and is in fact

sheeping

past results instead of using your brain to judge the circumstances uniquely.

I absolutely agree with Yoshi saying that CC's replies are not all that town, but Regfan disagrees and thinks CC is town and does not support that lynch. I'm not really feeling the Ald lynch, but Regfan still strongly supports that lynch so we are at a bit of a standstill here...

[Soben]

R and I are both leaning town on Jily. We wouldn't be devastated if she were lynched really due to her lack of content, but we won't be voting her today. One thing that I thought it would make sense to bring up is that Jily town-necessitates a mafia roleblocker. That does make it slightly less likely that she is town in a vacuum as there is not a mafia roleblocker in every setup. If Jily is town we ought to look at who she was supposed to be targeting becuase if I were scum and I figured the vig would be shooting a town, I might just say screw it and let the shot go through...

R and I both like to scumhunt due to PoE as such are town reads are usually the ones we are most confident in...

Strong town reads: Alex, mastin, ironhead, yoshi (need to revisit yoshi townread, i've personally written him off as town ages ago and haven't iso'd him in a while)
Weaker town reads: TS, jillyn, Elsa
conflicted opinions, (one scumread/one town read each): Ald, CC
Still scum in both our opinions: TWIE

[Soben]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=spe ... ORM=IDFRIR

Mastin this picture reminds me of your scumhunting.

[Soben]

Mastin, have you ever done a math problem that requires multiple steps? That problem is like this game.

Perhaps the question involves the quadratic formula and you think early on that (x = (-b + or - the sqrt (c2 - 4ab)/2a). You base all of your thinking off of this unquestionable truth. You accept it as true and base the other 6 or 7 steps off of that. In the end you end up with x = the sqrt of -144/9 or something ridiculous. But omg, your formula was wrong and x really = 2 instead! How far off would you be. Assuming we were lynched, our flip would be that (-144/9). You would see that result and think to yourself, well gosh that can't be right! Then you would look back and realize omg, that formula was wrong...I was WAY off, time to start all over again.

This parable, essentially is a different way of trying to say what has already been said. Your arguments are logically inconsistent. To say "there has to be 1 scum on such and such wagon" and then to go out and essentially want to lynch the 2 people on that wagon just isn't going to happen. I'm not going to careless support 2 lynches based on such fallacious reasoning.

If you start with a false premise, you will go down a train of thought will end up so convoluted and far from the truth. Always question your reads. ALWAYS. R and I keep on reviewing players even those who we see as obv town, just to make sure we aren't missing something. You desperately need to do that with us.

Mastin, read through our iso with the thought, just the thought, that we were confirmed town. Could you at least envision the world where the posts we make are actually sincere? What then, where would you go from there? This honestly is the most important thing you need to do right now although I have serious doubts as to whether you will do it.

[Soben]

Yoshi, I need to speak with my other half before voting. We will be voting either Ald or CC today though most likely. Although last time we talked we both spoke about a desire to really point out that Elsa isn't all that townie still. We had given her some town points due to isoing WK and seeing his "vig-vote" on her. But if jilynne is really vig, well then I think that means that mafia knew that the vig would be roleblocked anyways so that a vig-vote like that is the perfect type of harmless distancing with no risk.

Reading Elsa's iso we kind of forget why we changed our mind on her the first place.

[Soben]

Welcome Xvart and thank you very much for replacing into a game this deep in however you have replaced into a slot I'm relatively confident is scum, there's a lot I want you to respond to however I'll let you finish your reading and catching up first.

It's no secret that recently Scumhunter has taken over the posting duties and it's because this game has made me beyond agitated and frustrated by Mastins complete inability to understand his incorrectness of his read despite other players constantly repeating so and your logic and reasoning being highly contradictory, an example of this being statement that TWIE is town because SP had a town-read on him and died while SP also had a town-read on us.

Yoshi, I don't disagree that in the interest of preserving our power roles a lynch needs to occur on one of the VT claims however I would state that the ultimate aim of a lynch should always be to lynch mafia therefore there's no reason to completely blind ourselves of all options and just tunnel between them when it's possible they both might be town although it's not the opinion that Scumhunter or myself current hold (Scumhunter believes CC is mafia while I have a growing town-read on him and the opposite is the case for Ald).

Post #1275 by Mastin: We've already discussed this however I'll do it again for completeness sake, the speed of the wagon on CC is near meaningless with the lack of remaining scum and the way that it was formed, furthermore you continue to mention that you have multiple strong town reads on the wagon which should again show you that the wagons occurance is null. I am still waiting for your explaination on TWIE town which you've been stating you'll go into multiple times.

There's not that much (per page) to say about Ald for pretty much the entire game, because (quite frankly) he hasn't been around for almost the entire game. (Lurking, and when he comes in, it's active lurking. His lurking is self-evident. His active-lurking, well, just wait for the case to be finished.)

Do you believe lurking is a scum-tell on it's own or does the lurking need to be active for you to consider it a scum-tell? 2. How strong a scum-tell do you consider constant active lurking to be?

Let me ask you all this: does anyone here disagree with WormyKrew having put one scumbuddy in the town section, and one scumbuddy in the scum section? (Split/Scumhunter/Soben and Gerhard/Captain are both in the scum section.)

The logic you're attempting to push here is that "Scum never put their partner in their null lists" when if anything that's where mafia place their partners the most furthermore the fact that you're actually attempting to use this to be the center of what your reads revolve around should set of alarm bells in your own head telling you that you need to step back and reevaluate.

This is the polar opposite of the truth, and Ald of all people should know this. It's backwards--the people less interested in reading the thread aren't scum. They're town, who're bored. AKA, VTs. (Which fits perfectly with Captain's roleclaim--the slot was playing like a VT. As Secret pointed out, this applied to Captain just as much as Gerhard.) See also: Jily, a perfect example. She wasn't lying when she said she is more interested in the games where she's scum. And if you doubt that's enough, you can also look into me, and realize that this was close to MY belief as well. I put more attention into interesting games. And while if I was under heavy pressure (AKA, close to being lynched), a town-game would be interesting to me, quite frankly, the scum games held my interest a lot more frequently. It's a frequent town-tell.

I fully understand where you're coming from here and it's incorrect, for instance read my completed games, I'm highly interested and active as town whereas mafia I don't prod-dodge so to speak however my lack of interest and refrainment from posting content is highly evident another major example would be looking at Superhero mafia in which ALL of the lurkers in the game were mafia, no I'm not kidding go look for yourself all (6?) mafia were lurkers.

Going to take a short break, I'll continue in a few hours.

[Soben]

Alright, I lied going to get through another section before I take my break.

Soben's post I'm quite frankly ignoring. Skimmed it, saw nothing which I felt I needed to address, seeing as Soben's a scum-read of mine and it'd be a waste of time trying to convince my scum-read that they're scum.

You do realize how insulting and anti-town this is correct? You're stating that you're openly paying less attention to our posts for the sole reason that you suspect us whereas the fact you suspect us should lead you to want to focus and respond to our points to either confirm or disprove your suspicion of us.

Soben (scumbuddy for a reason!) has shown exactly why Ald could be scum. (In other words, IF Soben were town, they'd be willing to lynch Ald as well.)

Had you actually read our posts (See above quote) you would have noticed that we're having massive difference in opinion at the moment, I'm very comfortable voting Ald right now (I wouldn't say I'm certain he would flip scum however over the alternate lynch choice for today I see him much more likely to flip mafia) whereas Soben still has a strong (Though reducing in strength the longer I yell at him) scum-read on CC.

(In respons to my replace in reads) You know, stuff like this really shouldn't have fooled me before. It's stuff which looks like amazing content, brilliant, in fact. I definitely thought so at the time. But man. On a re-read, I realize just what a load of junk this actually was.

Alright, if you want to attempt to call my thoughts junk you're going to have to elaborate what about my thoughts were "junk".

1: reads as slight deflection away from WormyKrew. 2: trying to distract me from my cases at the time. 3: Gut. ("...That's all you can think of?" Yeah, sometimes, believe it or not, certain words which I don't have any logical reason to be suspicious of...still feel suspicious. And those incidents are, quite simply put, Gut. There's more in here to suspect than the deflection and distraction, but I don't know what. Hence, I have to say that it's Gut.)

1. A defection would involve attempting to move your time away from WormyKrew when I actually constantly asked you to present a case or a list of reasons for why you suspected WormyKrew. 2. Read (1), I constantly reminded you that I wanted to see these cases.

Blatant WormyKrew defense, through and through.

I've never denied that I defended Wormy, I had a town-read on Wormy which I explained in detail however the fact that you seem to state that CC's defence and town-read of Wormy D1 make him town but us scum should show you that you're in confirmation bias right now.

For the record, Secret opposed the TWIE lynch. This (and the fact that TWIE got to L-1) is all you need to know for TWIE-town. It was a horribad reason to jump on, pinning the blame on someone who hadn't even been walling that much, and rushes the day, urging people to lynch TWIE quickly. (Sound familiar? It should, because that's the exact same thing which people are doing with Captain.)

I fail to see how a player getting to L-1 can be considered as a town-tell especially when them getting to L-1 was highly justified furthermore you're continuing to be selective in which of SPs reads are correct or not must I remind you that SP was insistent that we were town as well. The fact a particular player dies doesn't mean that their reads are all correct, it doesn't even mean that any of their reads are correct, they're multiple reasons for someone to be shot including them being viewed as unlynchable or them being suspected to be a power-role.

[Soben]

Unoffical Vote Count:

wierdalexv 3 (L-3) jilynne1991, Ironhead, Alduskkel.
Captain Corporal 2 (L-4) Darth Yoshi, Elsa Von Spielburg.
Alduskkel 3 (L-3) Mastin2, Twistedspoon, Wiredalexv.

Not Voting: TheWayItEnds, Soben, Captain

With 24 hours remaining we need to make sure a lynch occurs and we're not lynching Alex today, that's a no-brainer meaning Iron you need to move your vote and both Captain and TWIE need to place a vote. I'm going to have a conversation with Scumhunter later today but right now it's highly likely our vote will be placed on Alduskkel in a few hours from now.

[Soben]

Just had a conversation with Scumhunter and he's finally agreed with us placing our vote on Ald however both of us want to give Xvart some time to catch up and post in the thread before a lynch occurs as well as give Ald a last chance to post reads and his thoughts if he's town.

Consider this post the both of us openly stating that we would be willing to hammer Ald within 10 hours of the deadline.

[Soben]

...and if the viable wagon turns out to be on CC and not on Ald? (albeit unlikely w/ 4 votes now on Ald, but still)

NL is terribad. We'd definitely vote CC if the alternative was NL. Alex is such obv town, not really sure why there were votes on him in the first place. NL is terrible and I mean freaking terrible, but there is no chance in hell we'd vote Alex today not even to avoid NL. At this point, it appears we have decided to vote Ald. His disappearance near deadline has zapped any energy I have to convince R that we should vote CC instead.

Honestly, if it wasn't so late in the day I would definitely support an Elsa lynch. I actually think she and TWIE are actually the two people I'd want to lynch the most right now. Although, neither of those are happening today obviously. With regards to Elsa, iso her as a potential WK partner. Definitely possible. Still not seeing any town tells there.

It will be so freaking lolzy if Ald flips scum, just for the simple fact that mastin will probably STILL push on us tomorrow. R's rage will be so funny to watch.

Also Substrike, yes you pwn etc.

[Soben]

Ald, "a while", can't be too long as we have 24 hours to deadline here...

[Soben]

Two things here--first, if you've decided to vote Ald, why haven't y'all already put him at L-1, especially with what looks like another attempt by Ald to run out the clock by promising a wall even though the deadline is in 24 hours? (At a minimum, Ald needs to move his vote, he didn't even do that prior to working on the wall.)

Second, Alex has been looking much more townish over the last few IRL days, but I actually adamantly disagree that we should NL before lynching Alex. Please explain your reasoning.

1. Placing our vote on him before allows potential for a hammer to occur without our approval which is something we very much want to avoid as we wanted to force xvart into providing as much content as possible today (Which he seems to have stopped doing) as well as assessing who he voted, furthermore I wanted to give Ald a chance to post his final thoughts and reads on the chance that he is town.

2. I would go as far to say that Alex is our strongest town-read at the current moment and the strength of our town-read on him is enormous, although a no lynch would lead to one less shot at lynching mafia I believe the benefits from keeping a townie alive is much higher than shooting into what I believe would be a (1-2%) chance of hitting mafia in his lynch.

[Soben]

Aldusskel, LOL at trying to use logic to convince Mastin.

Honestly, we should be lynching Elsa or TWIE today -_____________________-

[Soben]

I'm bipolar. The current self you are talking to prefers a CC lynch.

[Soben]

I want to be VERY clear in my intent so that Mastin doesn't have to spend his time and energy to decipher my intentions. What I just said in that last post is:

"I'd rather not bus my buddy Aldusskel, please dont make me."

[Soben]

I'm bipolar. The current self you are talking to prefers a CC lynch.

I lied I want an Elsa or a TWIE lynch but that is not happening unfortunately -____-

[Soben]

Extremely frustrated and disappointed with that hammer, we needed as much time as possible for Xvart to post his catch up thoughts and reads before this went to night-phase though I still believe there's a decent chance Ald will flip scum (Scumhunter doesn't seem to think so anymore though).

Heading on vacation in a few minutes in which I'll be up coast for a few days though I'll have some form of internet access there and if the threads still open I'll have the remainder of my thoughts posted here before night phase.

Mastin, if at the end of this game it's found out to be one or more scum in the names that you listed which I believe is going to be the case and it's likely to be Elsa or TWIE I expect you not only to claim complete responsibility for the loss but also to never join a game with me in future again. The 'townslip' that you attempted to point out with Xvart is something I myself considered however the fact that he never mentioned it again even though Ironhead and other players hinted towards Secret Project being dead and Secret Project not being included in the vote count today leads it towards being forced and faked.

[Soben]

The action of someone being wagoned or put near a lynch doesn't by any means increase their likelihood of being town unless the lynch was strongly pushed by mafia, this is a concept you somehow are unable to grasp and continue attempting to defend them on those merits.

Furthermore I have played over at epic mafia for some time, I'm slightly ashamed to admit it because the level of skill over there has decreased for quite some time there and the act of 'forced dumbtelling' is one that's evident and witnessed multiple times, there are also occurances of it happening in forum mafia that I'd willingly post when I get time later. Essentially it's mafia attempting to act 'dumb' in a fashion that allows people to attain a town-read on them.

[Soben]

Sorry was finishing packing, I agree that players faking dumb-tells are generally easy to see through that's why I believe Xvarts avoidance of the fact that Secret Project is dead despite Ironhread pretty much pointing it out reads as incredibly suspicious and that very fact is something you need to take a good look at yourself.

Oh and Mastin, enjoy:

Believe me a Jillyn wagon and lynch is something I've considered multiple times but each and every time I do I reach the conclusion that it isn't a good idea, although her actions are suspicious I don't mind them all to be scum motivated just outright lazyiness.

Iron, the reasons I'm uncomfortable with a Jillyn lynch today include the fact that her actions read as laziness more then scummy. When I read through her mafia game to find out what her meta was like it was very apparent that she was capable and willing to put in the effort needed furthermore her desire to be lynched earlier than later reads as a town-tell.

[Soben]

Good work, you managed to attempt to misrepresent a quote that I posted right above yours, you just pulled it out of context and avoided the fact that I stated her actions are laziness and nothing more which is something you seem to agree upon.

Yes, it should be abundantly obvious that I had strong suspicions of Jillyn upon replacing in especially due to her post in her alternate mafia games QT and I believe the act or lurking throughout a day phase is 'suspicious' actions but I don't find them scummy. Anyway, I no longer have time to stand here attempting to argue logic with you were you're in this completely tunnel mode, leaving for vacation now though I'm highly interested in seeing this flip when I arrive there.

[Soben]

No Twistedspoon, he's town. Just really really bad town.

Don't have time to read Mastins most recent post, will have to do so later, running late already.

[Soben]

Fuck it, I know my family is going to be pissed that I've held them back however I'll post one more time before I leave, the fact that he showed and understood that the leading two wagons were CC and Alduskkel as well as placing a vote shows that he's relatively up to date with recent occurances. Not just that but the fact he didn't look for Secret Projects placement on the vote count shows that his suspicion for SP is incredibly likely fake. One of the biggest things I do when scumhunting is look at where my scum reads are voting to get a feel for if they're likely bussing or not.

I don't disagree nor have I ever that I have a degree of dislike for Jillyn however non of that is due to my read on her slot or related to it but moreso her actions as a player which should be highly evident. If I was attempting to "Paint her allignment in a negative light" there would no reason to attempt to prevent a lynch of hers going through or convince others to refrain from voting here which I have.

My definition of 'really really bad town' revolves around the amount of logic a player uses, I believe if a player ignores all signs of logic and tunnels towards their FoS's in an idiotic manner they are a player I want nothing to do with. If you read through 90's Band Mafia you'll notice I called Pine 'really really bad town' on multiple occasions and was also the reason I asked for him not to be allowed to replace into Untrods game.

I believe there's a decent chance that Ald flips scum, decent chance in I can see the possibility of it occuring though I don't believe it's highly likely to be the case at all therefore there's also a decent chance that there will be two scum going into tonight which would give xvart an out and an ability to discuss the game with his partner before his 'catch-up' continues.

Now they're yelling, I have to go.

[Soben]

That's L-1.

Deadline
Who of
{Elsa von Spielburg; Ironhead; Soben; Captain Corporal}
will be around to hammer then?

I will. I do not support the Ald lynch, but avoiding a no-lynch is always critical.

Attempt to gain town cred for when Ald flips town.

Now that mastin has wasted today with his terrible logic and worse listening skills, once Ald flips town can we reexamine people we should actually be looking into: namely Elsa and TWIE???

[Soben]

Oh just caught up reading.
Ald might be scum looooooooooooooooool.
That would be excellent for a couple reasons:
1) lynching scum = more likely to win
2) more importantly the amount Regfan will be trolled by mastin's fos on us in that scenario will make me lmfao.

This is a sincere offer to mafia and my word is my bond: If Ald flips scum and you night kill mastin, Regfan and I will actively avoid scumhunting for at least 2 day phases.

Equally Sincere "offer" to any "doctor" roles out there. If you protect mastin tonight and prevent him from being killed, we will troll not only this game, but every game you ever play on this site until we are IP banned.

^ If you think either of these are "jokes" or that I'm not 100% dead serious, you are bad at reading people.

[Soben]

Mastin, what makes you a bad player is your inability to discuss things logically and actually hear others arguments out for what they are, instead you attempt to hone in on whatever your reads are attempting to grasp at whatever logic and illogical conclusions and actions you can to attempt to back it up while denying the fact that there's a severe amount of grasping for straws occuring. You get yourself into an attitude of your reads are god and right no matter what when they're not, you've read us wrong and continue to while reaching to attempt to back up your horrible read, furthermore you're attempting to lable players as "Confirmed town" wihtout even attempting to go into reasoning behind their read, examples would be on Elsa and TWIE (The reasoning on the CC town-read is actaully quite good and I agree with majority of it).

Well, I was cut and right about TWIE all along it seems.

Vote: Xvart

[Soben]

Well, I don't see it possible for there to be inclusion of more than three scum in a setup like this so that should in fact be game over when the votes are placed. For the most part this was an extremely enjoyable game and I would love to play with a lot of you again in the future.

Nicely done Ironhead.

[Soben]

Excuse the triple post but I can't help myself, Mastin now do you see how it's possible that both day one wagons can be on scum and therefore attempting to clear them saying that it's not the case is highly illogical.