Into Africa - Over

[Altilysian]

ZeLink, why is DK a good policy lynch?

[Altilysian]

Hey guys, catch-up post.
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@Fate: How do you know Ellibereth is town?

Not rolefishing. Seems like a perfectly reasonable question to get a discussion going on page one.
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LOL...I was just going to vote myself...until I realized I was myself.

Don't do that, that's a no no.

Flavour's first content post. The way he says this supports his later claim (many pages later) that he hates self-voting.
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Ellibereth's accusations against Snarky and Flavour Analysis on page one read as aggressive early-game scum hunting.
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k.
You, Snarky, who else?

Why did you vote yourself?

Again pressing the self-vote issue. Reads as someone seriously (read: genuinely) concerned (maybe overly so) with self votes.
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Vote: Flavour Analysis

You've got a broken sarcasm detector

That's what I thought, too. I don't think self-votes are a big deal, especially not in RVS. However, I think FA actually does get PO'd at self-voting (whatever his reasons or past experiences are). So that part does not make FA scummy in my eyes.
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Vote: Flavour Analysis

You've got a broken sarcasm detector

...I have this vague feeling there's some sarcasm I'm just not detecting.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2991458

Unvote Vote: Silavor

You are hypocritical.

Reads as a zinger, a witty "gotcha!" response. Not scummy.
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@Anyone saying PLs are bad.... Even if DK is town, he's far more harmful to town than scum is. Seriously. No jokes.

I don't support PLs, but some people do as this gentleman does. I can see the reasoning at least; if someone is hurtful to town, get rid of them and they have just as good of a chance as being scum. Whatever. this response is not scummy.
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Cirno, Silavor, and Alti, you guys lurking. Post.

Pro-town. I like when people look at those out of the spotlight (even if that included me!) and doesn't get caught up in the loud and noisy.
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Ooh okay Snarky is scum too and can die first.

UNVOTE: Cirno
VOTE: Snarky

Snarky did not say anything since Llamarble last posted, so looked like he just followed Ellibereth and Fate's decision to go after Snarky first. Scummy.
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Ooh okay Snarky is scum too and can die first.

Sup broski. You sheepin?

Exactly what I was thinking. FA looking very town.
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Who should I vote for if I want to look more town?

Snarky?

Questionable, scummy post.
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Man Flavor is BEGGING FOR IT over Snarky.

He's even talking like he already knows I'm town.

MAN

CAN SOMEONE BE A DAYVIG PLEASE?

Fate being too aggro on Flavor here. Somebody said that's how Fate plays usually; I wouldn't know.
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I thought I was "obviously wrong?"

How could I be wrong unless I was town?

How could you KNOW I was town without knowing Snarky's alignment?

LOLSCUM

I'm tempting to go FA first just to put a stop to his SCUMSPAM of the thread.

Gimme a few more pages

Doesn't make sense and stretchy argument making. Though I don't know what the scum motivation would be to shift a lynch from Snarky to FA. If someone wants to meta clear Fate, go right ahead.

Plus it seems you are buddying each other from outside thread bonds, so that is why I think you are fisting each other, and not that you know each other's alignment.

Not familiar with "fisting." What's that?
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More über unwarranted aggressiveness from Fate which is scummy, if not meta cleared.
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Unvote

VOTE: Flavour Analysis

#50, #51, #53, #60, #61... Whatever, just every post he's made.

Totally unimaginative voting. Doesn't explain why those posts are scummy. I found some of those posts good and perfectly reasonable.

FoS: ZeLink

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VOTE: Snarky

yep sounds about right.

No it doesn't. Scum following Ellibereth and Fate's lead.

FoS: earworm

Unvote

VOTE: Flavour Analysis

#50, #51, #53, #60, #61... Whatever, just every post he's made.

Hey, I'm not saying Flavour's town or anything, but c'mon, that's a bit vague/lazy, don't you think? Can you give a proper case on him though.

I will review the posts you just described though.

Exactly. ji gets town cred for calling out ZeLink's bullshit.
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Not seeing the scum motivation for FA's VT claim. curiouskarmadog has it right (which he says pages later). Someone care to explain why it seems scummy to people?
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P-edit: Yes, you are, FA. And there is some new content there, but some of what is happening is so obvious that rehashing can't be helped. This game is in easy mode right now.

Thinks Snarky and FA are obv. scum. How the fuck did Snarky get owned so badly for that one question, the supposed rolefish? I didn't see it that way AT ALL (see my very first point in this post). Not liking Amrun's conclusion that the game was easy mode. Kinda like she's trying to drive town to think Snarky and FA are obv. scum when they aren't.
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Hey, I'm not saying Flavour's town or anything, but c'mon, that's a bit vague/lazy, don't you think?

Yeah. It is.

Unvote

VOTE: Snarky

As someone mentions later, when ZeLink gets called on his bullshit, he switches to Snarky and doesn't give reasoning AGAIN. Like earworm, it looks like he is just following what Ellibereth and Fate are saying and going with Amrun's "easy mode" lynch. Probably gonna vote this guy, but I'll put it at the end of my post so LlamaFluff doesn't miss it.

You see me say I don't like selfvoting
You vote yourself (dumbfuck)
and I vote you. You vote me in omgus and call me scum for that? You make me laugh.

Again, his raging makes me believe that he actually does overreact to self-votes. I think there's a misunderstanding here. I think Elli is right to suspect FA for responding poorly to a RVS self-vote, IF FA doesn't have such strong feelings about it. I have town reads on both of them, more-so on FA.
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VOTE: Fate

For language use.


Actually, because I don't like his push on Flavour or his suggestion that no more input is needed from him.

Agreed. Cirno gets cred.
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I'm with Fate here.

post 78-thinks they've been daykilled
post 80-Ellie "confirms" this suspicion
post 82-responds to "confirmation"
post 83-Finally claims

No reason to wait that long if they were going to claim. (which is the bad move. always.)

VOTE: FA

What are you on about? That happened within the space of 3 minutes.... How was that a long time? Post-wise, maybe. But context is an amazing thing.

ZeLink gets some cred back. earworm is now my #1 suspect.
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@Everyone: What are your thoughts on self-voting, policy lynching, and pre-mature claims?

Self-voting means nothing. Policy lynching is bad. Pre-mature claims mean nothing.
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CKD makes good points against HezLucky.
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cirno is town. Snarky is still scum. With Amrun.

Why is Snarky scum?

As for noting, your attempt to drive a day one mislynch via a "slip" is noted.

Overreaction toward CKD's warranted questioning.

FoS: Hez

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How does everyone feel about a snarky lynch?

VOTE: Snarky

Continued rolefishing.

@Elli: they had already claimed, the damage was already done.

Where is the continued rolefishing?
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Vote: earworm

ZeLink has made some good points so he doesn't seem as scummy anymore. Same can't be said for earworm. His first vote on Snarky looked scummy, like he was just following Elli and Fate on a dubious rolefishing claim and saw that lots of town were following it, so he jumped on the bw. He hasn't done anything to gain cred. He says Snarky continues to rolefish. Not seeing it.

[Altilysian]

Okay posts 247 and 251, I assume. I didn't see it on an initial read, but meh, at least it's a more legit accusation than the initial RVS one. Earworm is still scummy from the first vote.

Not familiar with "fisting." What's that?

ahahaha.
Sorry. I'll do something soon. Just found that hilarious. I'm so mature.

And here I was thinking it was some special mafia term.

[Altilysian]

Altilysian is fake scumhunting. Count how many of the responses to quotes in his post you can say "no shit, sherlock" too. (it's most of them, if you don't feel like counting)

Which is weird because others have come to different conclusions than I have.

[Altilysian]

This wasn't an overreaction to the questioning, but the fact that he decided to call me out on a nonexistent slip.

But could you not see why CKD thought that was a slip?

@Atil: I see you viewing for quite a bit. Do you have any new thoughts? How are your reads developing?

Sorry, I looked at the topic in the morning before work, but didn't have the time to respond.

Towny
--------
jilynne
Ellibereth
elvis_knits
FA
CKD
Cirno

Scummy
----------
Amrun
Fate
HezLucky
Llamarble
earworm

Not in order. Nullish for everyone else.

I find Amrun's posting scummy overall. Her posts seem unimaginative and as Snarky said, she just seems to follow the flow.

Elli, why is Amrun a town read for you?

First there's a whole catalogue of things that Alt DOESN'T find scummy. At first I was like, this is pointless, where is the scumhunting?

I find town reads just as useful as scum reads as they narrow down our lynch options and perhaps give us a better understanding of interactions.
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Okay reading some more, Amrun actually seems to be putting effort in now, but she does it after she got called out on it.

IGMEOY: Amrun

As far as I see it, it is protown since I am reducing the amount of repetition and useless information people have to read.

That's not pro-town. It's not like we're struggling with information overload here.

only scum really have anything to gain by claiming

What do they gain by claiming?

[Altilysian]

Altilysian, Flavour Analysis, silavor, Lowell, what is the case against earworm?

I think EK summarized it very well.

The earworm problem generally seems to be this:
People say that earworm was coaching FA by pointing out the loldayvig was fake.
earworm is following ellifate
earworm says snarky was rolefishing, people don't see it

I've been brewing over this matter and upon rereading, it's not as bad as I initially saw it.
Personally, my big issue was with the second reason. I really did not like post 72, where he just went with the flow and accepted Elli's wagon. He later says

The wagoning is slightly correct, though I did provide a seperate case.

And I'm trying to provide content for people to read me by.

Can't do anything about those vibes though.

As FA pointed out, it's contradictory that he wants to provide content for people to read him by, yet shamelessly sheeped Elli. I also found the content he gave in a separate case against FA totally unconvincing and fabricated; it was the one about how FA waited too long to claim and stretched it over several posts.

However, post 72 was all the way back on page 3 and a lot has happened since then. HezLucky's looking real scummy for his reactions to pressure from CKD.

Unvote

Vote: HezLucky

[Altilysian]

Unvote

Vote: HezLucky

more of this please.

Hell yeah, this guy needs rope. Happy scumday.

Sila is a scumbag, too. Post 497 is pretty damning.

WHY ISNT MY SNARKY WAGON HAPPENING WIHTOUT ME?

Because lulzy scum are trying to lynch me instead, hoping that

we'll

just forget about snarky.

The inconsistency in his suspicion of Snarky shows he's not actually caring about finding scum. When the pressure got on him, he made this major slip. His concentration on seeing the vote count reach thirteen for Snarky made him forget what his suspicions were supposed to be. His purposeful stupidposting claim is not convincing.

[Altilysian]

Is it the antelope thing? I don't care about the antelope thing.

Why not?

[Altilysian]

>So does that change your conclusions?
It invalidates my complaints about ek's silavor case.

So you acknowledge that EK's Silavor case was based on something else. How do you feel about the actual case?

>why not?
Just to make sure I'm not confusing things again, we are talking about vezok claiming antelope, and then [insert name of deceased here] flipping antelope and town, thereby confirming vezok as town, right? I just don't think it is a stretch to assume antelope would be the town role in a game with this theme.

Fair enough, though I think it's unlikely.

[Altilysian]

Hez, I'm pleasantly surprised. Why the explosion of content now though?

The whole CKD distracting you from scumhunting through his questions thing is still nonsense. Not so much scummy as I find it puzzling that you would use that excuse.

I find your case against CKD weak, OMGUSy, and most importantly, scummy. It looks like you're trying to discredit CKD's valid arguments against you by claiming that there is a scum motivation involved.

I'm very interested to hear from GreyICE what "smells off" about CKD.

[Altilysian]

and by the explosion of content, I mean why was it not spread more evenly across yesterday (gameday).

[Altilysian]

Of course Snarky's NK speculation was gonna bring lots of attention to him. TBH, I can't see scum just throwing that out there and placing the focus on himself unless he was scum unreasonably paranoid that Zelink's comment was gonna explode into something bigger.

GreyICE's random-ass vote on CKD is suspect. With no explanation given, I just have to assume he's protecting HezLucky.

[Altilysian]

Hey, a wagon I can get behind. Let's do this!

Vote: HezLucky

[Altilysian]

Actually, the more I think about it and rereading, I can see where HezTown would be coming from.

Alti #387 - it's called "acting". The scum will say "dammit I was town" and peopel will tihnk "oh he must be telling the truth seeing
as he's already dead" ... but in fact, if the daykill was fake the scum just gained huge townie points in people's eyes. Town have no
motivation to do this. Too self-preservationist (although now that I think about it, it's entirely possible the Elli/FA exchange was
a setup and they aer both scum)

I don't agree with his interpretation of FA's claim, but at least I can see where he's coming from. It doesn't seem like a scum fabrication.

If he really felt so strongly that the claim made FA obvscum, the "your defense of FA is noted" stuff and the OMGUS episode against CKD doesn't seem as bad as I initially thought.

Unvote

[Altilysian]

I am curious Alt, do you understand the reasoning behind Hez's "FA is obvscum for the claim" bit?

I better understand it, now that he explained it, though I do not agree with his interpretation. It was in his wallpost:

Alti #387 - it's called "acting". The scum will say "dammit I was town" and peopel will tihnk "oh he must be telling the truth seeing
as he's already dead" ... but in fact, if the daykill was fake the scum just gained huge townie points in people's eyes. Town have no
motivation to do this. Too self-preservationist (although now that I think about it, it's entirely possible the Elli/FA exchange was
a setup and they aer both scum)

I really thought about it and tried to get into his mindset and I think it has validity. I may not think it's as much of a tell as HezLucky does, but 1) at least there is a logical basis 2) I do not think it was a scum fabrication. What do you think of his explanation and do you think it comes from a scum mentality?

Actually, the more I think about it and rereading, I can see where HezTown would be coming from.

Alti #387 - it's called "acting". The scum will say "dammit I was town" and peopel will tihnk "oh he must be telling the truth seeing
as he's already dead" ... but in fact, if the daykill was fake the scum just gained huge townie points in people's eyes. Town have no
motivation to do this. Too self-preservationist (although now that I think about it, it's entirely possible the Elli/FA exchange was
a setup and they aer both scum)

I don't agree with his interpretation of FA's claim, but at least I can see where he's coming from. It doesn't seem like a scum fabrication.

If he really felt so strongly that the claim made FA obvscum, the "your defense of FA is noted" stuff and the OMGUS episode against CKD doesn't seem as bad as I initially thought.

Unvote

Huh? All this time you have been on the push for Hezlucky, and NOW you think he is town? You state twice that you can see where he is coming from, but you don't explain how you came to that conclusion. Are you backtracking after voting along the super cool wagon? Btw, what do you think of Zelink?

What was your thought of Hez not spreading enough content during d1? I felt that was a good point. Please expand on that.

and by the explosion of content, I mean why was it not spread more evenly across yesterday (gameday).

FA, sometimes I get so caught up in my suspicions that I lose track of the core of them. After hopping on the wagon, I reevaluated my suspicion on HezLucky and reread him in ISO. I remembered that the initial thing that made me suspect Hezlucky was how much he had seemingly overblown your VT claim. His poor interactions with CKD really accelerated my suspicions of him as he seemed completely fixated on you and anyone who might be attached to you. And honestly, that still bothers me...that he seemed so exclusively focused upon your claim episode. And that also ties in with his lack of content D1. I couldn't put my finger on it, but now I realize that's what made me feel his content was hollow in D1: that he was ignoring scumhunting across the player list and choosing instead to fixate on FA claim-related matters. Given this, his excuse that CKD was distracting him from scumhunting actually does seem scummy now. Dammit, typing this up, I think I've convinced myself HezLucky is scum again.

I will answer your question about why I was able to see where he was coming from after I hear what CKD has to say about HezLucky's assertion that your VT claim was "too self-preservationist."

I actually found Zelink really scummy in his initial posts (ISO 3 was terrible), but since then he has been very pro-town. He is one of my stronger town reads now.

[Altilysian]

Why is Zelink Pro-town to you?

I find myself agreeing with him on the majority of his points. His analysis is also nuanced and shows pro-town-minded motivation.

Vote: HezLucky

Btw, how sure are we these aren't just modkills for inactivity?

[Altilysian]

@Atil:

* Answer my question. Why do you want to wait for CKD's answer before answering me?
* I also assume you conceded to my points by voting Hez again.
* Zelink hasn't been scumhunting as much as he has been in the past, he's just been sitting there, promising cases.
* The mod would say "PLAYER X HAS BEEN MODKILLED FOR BREAKING RULE #42!". That's what I think that would say. You could ask the mod.
* Btw Atil, how experienced are you in Mafia? I have looked at your Wiki and it's all newb games. (Don't know if it's up to date or not)

1) FA, I didn't realize you meant that question. The reason I wanted to hear what CKD has to say about Hez's explanation is because CKD asked me if I could understand Hez's problem with VT claims. I said yes and felt it would be appropriate to ask what CKD thought of Hez's beef with your claim and hear what he had to say before I gave my understanding of Hez's problem. Some big things have happened since then and now we know either CKD or Hez is scum. I have no problems answering the initial question posed if you request it.

2) If you're implying that I'm sheeping you (sorry if that's not what you mean), then no I'm not. As I was writing up post 856, I realized how scummy Hezlucky is once again. Basically, I was able to understand why he might have a problem with your claim, but his D1 tunneling is super scummy. My vote was based on the points I outlined in my post 856. not your summary post.

3) Okay. You're probably more experienced than me.

4) I'm not very experienced. I played some newbie games over a year ago and I decided to play a game here again.

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My vote is staying on Hezlucky. First of all, Hezlucky has been more scummy than CKD. Secondly, CKD's claim is better. The "scavenged" word choice puzzled me initially, but now it makes more sense. As a hyena, CKD is not actually killing animals, but scavenging their remains after they've become inactive. With Hez's claim, okay I can understand trying to act scummy to avoid the nightkill, but tunneling to get an investigation target sounds off. Wouldn't it be better to have a range of possible suspects to inspect, so you keep your options open?

P-edit: FA's big analysis post. I will post this down now.

[Altilysian]

"What was your thought of Hez not spreading enough content during d1? I felt that was a good point. Please expand on that."

"I will answer your question about why I was able to see where he was coming from after I hear what CKD has to say about HezLucky's assertion that your VT claim was "too self-preservationist."

First statement is mine, second is yours.

I did expand on your first statement. I realized what made Hez's content so hollow...his focus on your claim.

I'm sure you know what question to answer from your second statement.

You convinced yourself he is scummy again? Well I suggest you put your vote back on him, or vote someone else you feel is scummy. I don’t want you to be unvoteless here. I would rather you answer it first, please. Why is Zelink Pro-town to you?

I thought you meant the Zelink question since it came right after. That's the one I answered before voting.

@Atil:

Right. But you didn't post the vote near the time you posted that post. You voted after I responded to you. (After I said that you should put your vote back on) I assumed you agreed to that and then voted without really commenting on what I said. It just seemed to me like you did that to drop it and give in. (It's always good to be honest then to just give in)

You're right. I probably should have voted in 856. I had reconvinced myself he was scum at that point. Meh, I just didn't want to lay down the vote again so soon after I had unvoted. You could say it was a "stylistic" choice. I figured I would (and could) wait until my next post to do so. Also, your point about you liking people always placing their votes on their suspects was valid. So I was like "ok, I certainly have no problem with that. I'll proceed to place my vote on my top suspect."

Atil - Null leaning scum.
Atil seemed to be excited to join the Hez lucky wagon, and immediately jumps off because of queasiness. (I assume it was going to fast) He has been pushing Hezlucky all game for being scummy, and yet when he finally votes, THEN realizes that he truly understood where Hez was coming from. This is BS to me because he didn't even explain and would rather wait until CKD answered his question so he can then asnwer mine. This is minorly suspicious.

Actually, if you look back, you'll see that I unvoted just 34 minutes after my initial hop on the bandwagon. There was some DietyKabuto stuff in between and if you see that stuff as influencing my decision to unvote, then fine. The truth is right after I voted, I rethought and reread Hez.

But please, tell me why you see what I did as scummy. Why was my inconsistency scum-motivated?

[Altilysian]

With the exception of the highly social spotted hyena, hyenas are generally not gregarious animals, though they may live in family groups and congregate at kills.

I see hyenas as loner types, so I see CKD as a SK. However, I agree with Elvis and I think we can wait before lynching him.
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Seacore is my preferred off-the-wagon lynch. In his post 880, he makes an argument against Hez and then P-edits his CKD vote after seeing the claim. I just have a hard time seeing scum doing that, making an argument against his partner and then jumping off in the same post. Earworm seemed to have genuinely considered Hez's cop claim as real. Seacore and Cirno's votes were actually pretty similar (using the same reasoning and they both got off the Llamarble wagon). Both votes were scummy, but otherwise, Cirno has been town-telling for me.

Llamarble's 917 is actually kind of a town tell for me. I can't really see scum still defending his partner after the hammer has been laid.

As for on-the-wagon, GreyICE's apparent "random" vote on CKD in the beginning of Day 2 is still scummy as I noted in my 799. The shift to the Hez wagon is kinda scummy. The Fate is bussing reason is bizarre. His initial vote on CKD implies that he agreed with Hez's assertions that CKD was pushing too hard. How swiftly he switched sides is scummy. He's my preferred "on-the-wagon" lynch.

I think I'll go for the scum-link over the bus for now.

Vote: Seacore

[Altilysian]

Oops, I fucked up.

In

Earworm's

* post 880, he makes an argument against Hez and then P-edits his CKD vote after seeing the claim.

[Altilysian]

Seacore just looks naturally scummy to me because he went along with the rather bad cop claim (IMO). Seacore's responses have not been bad so far. I will need to hear what content he brings out next week.

Look at Atil's jump on Hez, and IMMEDIATE ABANDON SHIP from him. *Take into account he may be a semi-newb.

I've already explained this, but I'll elaborate. I was at work and saw the wagon forming on HezLucky, so I made a quick post jumping on it. It was certainly a wagon I supported. So over the next half hour, as I was doing tedious work, I was thinking about HezLucky some more and reread some of his posts. I started second-guessing myself because I put two and two together: his overreaction toward CKD and his suspicion of people defending FA might be explained by this segment buried in his wall post:

Alti #387 - it's called "acting". The scum will say "dammit I was town" and peopel will tihnk "oh he must be telling the truth seeing
as he's already dead" ... but in fact, if the daykill was fake the scum just gained huge townie points in people's eyes. Town have no
motivation to do this. Too self-preservationist (although now that I think about it, it's entirely possible the Elli/FA exchange was
a setup and they aer both scum)

^That was the first time he explained why he found FA's claim scummy. CKD had kept pressuring him on why a VT claim is scummy, but he never gave a straight answer; that was part of what confused me. When he finally answered that and I was able to see that in the context of his actions, I was able to reevaluate my suspicions. So 32 minutes after I made the post in which I voted, I figured I'd be transparent and post what was going through my mind, rather than keeping it to myself.

So that's the real explanation of what happened. But FA, humor me, what is the explanation of why I did that as scum?

[Altilysian]

@

Atil

:

Yes but you never did so before. So obviously the reason why you 're-read' was because you weren't sure about your vote on him. Why exactly did you start "putting two and two" together? Why haven't you commented on that certain quote before? Did you read that quote BEFORE your 'realization'?

I thought it was scummy because you seemed to have been eager to join the Hez wagon to SEEM town, and then jump right back off for some odd reason. Who else have you even voted this game, Atil?

I read it when he first posted it, but I didn't connect it to his scummy behavior vs CKD. I was like, "okay so that might be why he was displeased with FA's claim, but he's still super scummy for his overreaction against CKD." So I joined the bandwagon. I didn't realize how those two things (his displeasure with FA's claim and his OMGUS against CKD) might be related. That's what I meant by putting two and two together. I rethink things a lot, especially after I post (because I'm still in the mafiascum mood after that) and especially when I'm doing boring, repetitive work. So I realized that OMGUS suspicions against CKD might have been caused by a genuine suspicion that CKD was chainsawing to defend FA. I decided to be transparent and be public about the thoughts in my head, so I posted my thoughts and unvoted.

So then we started discussing Hez and my actions. In the process, of course I was thinking and rethinking the Hez matter. As I was typing up my response #856 to you, of course I was considering Hez again. As I was typing it up, I realized that even though Hez's reaction vs CKD can be explained and traced back to FA's claim, it is still scummy that Hez focused solely and heavily on matters related to that claim. His "I can't scumhunt because you're questioning me, CKD" looked much more scummy in that context. That's why I was convinced he was scummy again.

So that's my thought process.

I thought it was scummy because you seemed to have been eager to join the Hez wagon to SEEM town, and then jump right back off for some odd reason. Who else have you even voted this game, Atil?

And I propose to you that yes, it's odd, but does that make it scummy? It's odd to you because you're not in my head and don't see the thought processes going through it.

Better question, who will you vote ToDay?

I'm voting Seacore right now because:

With the exception of the highly social spotted hyena, hyenas are generally not gregarious animals, though they may live in family groups and congregate at kills.

I see hyenas as loner types, so I see CKD as a SK. However, I agree with Elvis and I think we can wait before lynching him.
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Seacore is my preferred off-the-wagon lynch. In his post 880, he makes an argument against Hez and then P-edits his CKD vote after seeing the claim. I just have a hard time seeing scum doing that, making an argument against his partner and then jumping off in the same post. Earworm seemed to have genuinely considered Hez's cop claim as real. Seacore and Cirno's votes were actually pretty similar (using the same reasoning and they both got off the Llamarble wagon). Both votes were scummy, but otherwise, Cirno has been town-telling for me.

Llamarble's 917 is actually kind of a town tell for me. I can't really see scum still defending his partner after the hammer has been laid.

As for on-the-wagon, GreyICE's apparent "random" vote on CKD in the beginning of Day 2 is still scummy as I noted in my 799. The shift to the Hez wagon is kinda scummy. The Fate is bussing reason is bizarre. His initial vote on CKD implies that he agreed with Hez's assertions that CKD was pushing too hard. How swiftly he switched sides is scummy. He's my preferred "on-the-wagon" lynch.

I think I'll go for the scum-link over the bus for now.

Vote: Seacore

and

Seacore just looks naturally scummy to me because he went along with the rather bad cop claim (IMO)

[Altilysian]

I isolated both seacore and vezok.

Can everyone, specially those voting seacore, tell me why are you prefering seacore to vezok?

Tajo, how do you feel about Vezok's early antelope claim?

[Altilysian]

after some analysis I dont think vezokscum has the skills to try this kind of gambits, so Im going with town.

Back to the drawing board since this means ice is prob scum.

Vezok has a meta of early claiming. A while ago we used it to nail him as scum since he also botched his fakeclaims like nobodies business (really. You have no idea).

He thinks its nifty he's prepped his fakeclaim ahead of time. It was full of cheeky 'hehe they won't ever suspect me' goodness.

I've been thinking about this. I've been considering him pretty much cleared, but upon rereading, something's troubling me.

I was claiming Antelope.
I'm not claiming role lol.

That he didn't claim his role (VT) made it a safer gambit. As Cirno mentioned before, he could have easily just picked a common prey animal. I'm still not sure about this one. However, if GreyICE's assertions are true, then yes, he could definitely have been fakeclaiming (I'm gonna take a look at GI's links).

This votecount is IMPORTANT AS FCK

HezLucky (7) - Flavour Analysis, ZeL1nK, populartajo, vezokpiraka, GreyICE, Fate, DietyKabuto
Llamarble (6) - elvis_knits, Seacore, curiouskarmadog, Lowell, snarky, Cirno

Everyone should answer in following post these next two questions:

a) who is the scum(s) in Lllamarble wagon?

b) who is the scum(s) bussing in Hez wagon?

a) Llamarble wagon: possibly Seacore
b) Bussers: vezok (?), GreyICE

That being said, I'm glad people are stepping it up with the analysis recently (Seacore, GreyICE, pacman, llamarble). Of course, it does not completely absolve them and it concerns me that I was unsatisfied with nearly all of GreyICE's content before to[game]day. I also think CKD's NK speculation has merit. Still, I liked this answer:

Answer 1!
I'm not a motherfucking psychic. Though I clearly explained that my opinion is that when the scum kill an obv-town player without strong reads like Ellibereth, it means the other town players are off track, and I changed my tack. THIS STRATEGY WAS SUCCESSFUL. Looking outside the strong day 1 wagons lynched us scum.

Might explain why he randomly voted CKD at the beginning of yester[game]day.

I'm feeling better about Seacore now.

Unvote

I'm eying the people we have less content from now, just because they are harder to read.

I'm feeling really "meh" about the Amrun wagon. I thought she was pretty scummy in the beginning of the game, but since, I think she's been genuinely trying to find scum. Maybe if some of the Amrun voters could explain their case some more, I would be more inclined to swing that way.

[Altilysian]

HezLucky (7) - Flavour Analysis, ZeL1nK, populartajo, vezokpiraka, GreyICE, Fate, DietyKabuto
Llamarble (6) - elvis_knits, Seacore, curiouskarmadog, Lowell, snarky, Cirno

Everyone should answer in following post these next two questions:

a) who is the scum(s) in Lllamarble wagon?

b) who is the scum(s) bussing in Hez wagon?

a) Lowell and probably Cirno

b) I'm leaning scum on FA. And one of GI and Vezo is probably scum, right now I'm leaning vezo. This wagon is by far the harder of the two to read.

a) Llamarble wagon: possibly Seacore
...
I'm feeling better about Seacore now.

Unvote

If you think that Seacore is town, do you have any other suspects on that wagon?

I guess Lowell in the sense that's he's null and others are town. Cirno is a very weak town read. I thought the Llamarble wagon was pretty good yesterday, so being on that wagon is by itself not much of a tell for me.

Oh yeah, you FOSED SNARKY AND WANT TO LYNCH AMRUN FOR BEING HIS BUDDY WITHOUT A FLIP

You know better than to vote for someone on the basis of them being an UNFLIPPED PLAYER'S SCUMBUDDY.

Isn't that what you did when you voted Hez because "Fate's bussing again. Obv."? Could you please elaborate on your vote shift from CKD to Hez yesterday?

[Altilysian]

He pushed too much town wagons IMO and he's still alive

Did you think her reasonings were sound?

[Altilysian]

Please elaborate, Amrun.

[Altilysian]

OBVtown
elvis_knits
tajo
FA
vezok - I think his early claim was real

Town
Llamarble - Has stepped up tremendously
Seacore - Handled himself well under pressure. His reads post was good. I'm buying his explanations, for now.
Snarky - His expectation for information from the GreyICE lynch reads as townie getting too excited GI would flip scum. That second rolefishing accusation has merit, but I'm not buying it. Everything else coming from him as sounded town to me.

Slight town
earworm
DietyKabuto
evilpacman
Calcifer inHillshallibe - VERY slight town. Clipping the scum side. Looking at inHim's iso, even though he didn't say that much, some of the stuff there does make me feel he is town. Calcifer has done no favors for this slot though.

SCUM
Cirno - Chose CKD over Hez. I did think he was slight town because I remember his early game defense of FA (which I think was town-motivated). However, the GI hammer shakes things up a bit.

>@everyone...I want your stance on grey...why is he a bad wagon?
Does 'everyone' apply to me, too? Lynching Grey would be interesting. But I don't hang out with no filthy hyenas, so I'm staying here.

Cirno, did Grey's lynch give you any interesting info?

Lowell - I could find something positive (townie) to say about everyone in this game except for this slot.
Amrun - Her early game confidence in the FA and Snarky lynches strikes me the wrong way. I did think she was doing good scumhunting up to the most recent policy lynch episode, but that early suspicion never went away.

Highly variable
CKD - If not for the Hyena flavor speculation, he would be OBVtown for the hardest push on the only scum catch so far (and the interactions between Hez and CKD did not seem like a bus). His case on GreyICE was good. Hyena could be a loner SK, but I could also see it as a badass town-aligned role. I don't want to risk lynching a pro-town player at this point.

GreyICE wagon was good and had good reasonings attached, so I don't think a lot of scum was on it.

Vote: Amrun

[Altilysian]

OBVtown whole game. Took the bait.

Vote: tajo

[Altilysian]

GreyICE was pouring his guts out. I would think he would mention something about a cop power he received before he died.

[Altilysian]

I think he said that he gives it to the player during the day.

[Altilysian]

Vote: Amrun

Calcifer is good, too. His suspicion toward Seacore in the thick of the tajo episode yesterday did not feel like genuine scumhunting. Blasting Seacore for his logical treatment of Cirno felt fabricated and scummy.

[Altilysian]

Atilysian, why vote for me and sapend the whole post talking about Calcifer?

Atilysian, why vote for me and sapend the whole post talking about Calcifer?

I was wondering that too.

Because I had already expressed my suspicions of Amrun before, I didn't have anything new about Amrun to add, and I didn't feel like repeating myself.

My "whole post" was the vote and a couple of lines talking about Calcifer, who I find scummy too. Btw, other people voted Amrun too and didn't post anything else. The only difference was I actually had something else to add.

[Altilysian]

Amrun - Her early game confidence in the FA and Snarky lynches strikes me the wrong way. I did think she was doing good scumhunting up to the most recent policy lynch episode, but that early suspicion never went away.

....

GreyICE wagon was good and had good reasonings attached, so I don't think a lot of scum was on it.

Vote: Amrun

This post, you mean, where a couple of buried sentences were in a wall, attached with a vote and TERRIBLE reasoning?

Why would scum avoid a "good wagon" on town?

Try harder.

It was a "wall" of reads and you were at the bottom of them.

GreyICE wagon was good and had good reasonings attached, so I don't think a lot of scum was on it.

wasn't the reason why I voted you. Your early game stuff is what makes me think you're scummy. I added the part in about the GreyICE wagon because people like tajo were saying we should concentrate on the wagon and I didn't think we necessarily should.

[Altilysian]

You're not "so scummy." I don't think you're as scummy as people like silavor and hez had been. You're right that at the beginning of the game, I only expressed suspicion of you once. All the way back in my second post:

P-edit: Yes, you are, FA. And there is some new content there, but some of what is happening is so obvious that rehashing can't be helped. This game is in easy mode right now.

Thinks Snarky and FA are obv. scum. How the fuck did Snarky get owned so badly for that one question, the supposed rolefish? I didn't see it that way AT ALL (see my very first point in this post). Not liking Amrun's conclusion that the game was easy mode. Kinda like she's trying to drive town to think Snarky and FA are obv. scum when they aren't.

As the game progressed, I thought you were doing some good scumhunting. However, I feel like your more recent stuff hasn't been as good, like receding back to a DK policy lynch. Now you may just be out to get DK, whether you're town or scum, but it makes me reexamine you again. Understand that at this point of the game, I'm finding my town reads stronger and more useful than my scum reads. You're within that group of people who I think has a good chance of being scum.

[Altilysian]

You need to do a little better if you are only going by PoE at this point.

That being said, I think your intereactions with hez make you town.

Well it's not just PoE, though it certainly helps a ton to have some town reads. How about you talk to me a bit about your strong scum read.

Since you seem so gungho about Snarky, maybe you could recap a bit about your suspicions of him. Yesterday, when I asked you to elaborate, you said:

Atilysian, are you serious? I've been going after snarky for four days now.

But in particular his most recent post was bad.

He said "Why" to Llamarble who said that earworm or I are most likely to be scum, then listed two terrible scumreads in the exact same way.

How is that last part even scummy? Is there something wrong with asking "Why?" It's not like he was accusing Llamarble of anything. He just wanted Llamarble to elaborate on his suspicions there and in turn, if you asked Snarky why he suspected his "terrible scumreads," he could have explained as well. Asking why =/= scum accusation.

Is there some more you want to add about Snarky's scumminess?

I kind of want to lance some of the derp pustules...
How much (if at all) to Vezok/DK's claims make them town?
Lowell could use some dead too.
And who is this Charlie guy who hasn't done anything yet?

Vezok is confirmed town. DK's claim (didn't he just claim VT?) means nothing.

[Altilysian]

CKD, your thought process on DK makes sense. I had a slight town read on him just because every so often, he asks questions that sound genuine. I will definitely consider the case.

Cirno's anti-town refusal to action claim could have been a discreet way of warning tajo not to claim, but failed.

[Altilysian]

Though actually, he could have just claimed that he didn't do it. But yeah, he was definitely trying to get CKD to out the supposed targetters early.

[Altilysian]

well the gambit was done in a way in which it was possible CKD had a watcher ability, so maybe not claiming whether or not they did it really was the safer bet.

[Altilysian]

Amrun and Calcifer are still my top 2.

Vote: Amrun

@everyone: Update on thoughts about CKD's alignment?

I intend to sheep elvis_knits. This is the best sheepable player in the game.

Super scummy.

[Altilysian]

If you mean my top 2, then I've known for quite a while now.

[Altilysian]

If you mean my top 2, then I've known for quite a while now.

I myself would like more details.

and I see you are asking about my status with the town, which is fine, but why dont you put your stance out there first?

Amrun was implying I'm suspecting people without reasons which is not true.

Sure. Upon rethinking the flavor and seeing endgame approach, I think there's a high chance you are SK, playing a very protown game. Someone (it may have been ZeLink) thought that an SK would stay more under the radar, but I'm not sure that's necessarily true. I can definitely see the motivation for an NK immune SK to become nay unlynchable as well. I've never played with SKs and would like to know what more experienced players think.

DIFFERENCE: All my reasons for suspecting you actualy already exist in my ISO. It's just not organized into one post.

No difference at all. I can say the same.

I mean you haven't yet given sufficient reasoning for suspecting me. We covered this yesterday.

Okay, I'll expand then. I thought the early game suspicions of FA and Snarky were rubbish, so I'm inclined to see people who went after them as scummy. And you went after them both, in a manner that seemed opportunistic. I'm open-minded, though, so if you talked more about your early game play, maybe I would feel better about you because as it stands that's the sticking point.

The other stuff that might make you scummy are more null for me. Evilpacman's VC analysis of you seems overly conspiratorial. Your penchant for DK's policy lynch may just be one of your idiosyncrasies. I don't agree with your current suspicions of Snarky, but maybe you sincerely believe in them yourself.

[Altilysian]

Amrun, what bothered you about FA in the early game?

[Altilysian]

I'm feeling ambivalent about this Cirno lynch. Many of his explanations make perfect sense. However, I am concerned that he is riding the hyena flavor a bit too strongly, using it to explain siding with HezCop and not cooperating with the watcher claim. I'm uncertain with the hammer on GI too. On the one hand, I don't see hammers (even sudden ones) as scummy as most do just because I feel many townies are just anxious to see a flip having come all the way to L-1. On the other hand, I'm skeptical of the interesting info Cirno gathered from GI's lynch.

I don't really care if he is lynched or not, but his lynch would be interesting, information wise.

What was this information?

[Altilysian]

Hang on, I can't sheep that last vote.

Why not?

[Altilysian]

I don't really care if he is lynched or not, but his lynch would be interesting, information wise.

This implies you would analyze the information after the lynch, does it not? If so, why are you so hesitant to share that information? Is it because you never really truly believed that and just said that to gently support a lynch? Like "I won't take a hard stance on this lynch, but hey the lynch will give us info (though actually in the back of my head, I don't really care about info)."

[Altilysian]

Did you intend not to analyze the wagon?

Also, I want to see Calcifer vigged.

[Altilysian]

if another vote is put on him

I will consider it as a hammer

Haha, it looks like you're absolving yourself of responsibility for a hammer, while still actually hammering.

I intended to give it as much attention as I would any other wagon. I didn't consider it a special case, just more interesting than the competing wagon because of GI's playstyle and the other player's reactions to him.

But you specifically said it would be interesting,

information wise

. That should make the wagon special and deserving of more attention.

[Altilysian]

Dammit, I just have to keep coming back to you not extracting that useful information from the GI lynch and not showing an active thought process regarding it.

You say that you don't really care if he's lynched, but that it will provide useful info. You say that the wagon is not special and should not be treated differently.

I just have a hard time reconciling those two points. It just seems like the logical connection is that by its very nature, an "interesting" wagon is "special."

You start off the next day with a vote on Elvis with no content related to that lynch.

Why even make the "interesting info" comment in the first place? The implication is that you would grab that information and use it.

So it brings me back to

I don't really care if he is lynched or not, but his lynch would be interesting, information wise.

This implies you would analyze the information after the lynch, does it not? If so, why are you so hesitant to share that information? Is it because you never really truly believed that and just said that to gently support a lynch? Like "I won't take a hard stance on this lynch, but hey the lynch will give us info (though actually in the back of my head, I don't really care about info)."

Also,

Where did you express suspicion of gi, cirno?

Sorry if you're repeating this ;_;

[Altilysian]

Charlie, did you read Snarky's post?

[Altilysian]

That's a risk I'm willing to take in my effort to become an effective sheep.

Relax. A quickhammer at this point will be a tragic mistake.

What?

CKD, no, I want to vig someone the group agrees is scummy, I just don't want to rely on lurkers moving their votes at deadline. Instead, I think we should keep the votes on Cirno and use virtual votes to decide vig target. Get it?

How much time would be enough to make an informed decision?

[Altilysian]

Amrun, I meant for the lynching, but it looks like Cirno isn't going to lurk anyway.

[Altilysian]

Have you guys realized yet that scum has absolutely no reason to let themselves be daykilled? In that case, only townies will be daykilled, so they really have no reason to go along with it either. Why do you still think asking someone to lurk out will hit scum?

Anyway, not lurking. Not self-hammering. And certainly not staying quiet.

The idea is that we can find scum if we choose right. As long as town members agree to lurk and be vigged if they are chosen, this can be used effectively.

We choose someone to vig. That person will either agree or disagree. Disagree = they are scum. Agree = vig him or her anyway just in case of WIFOM.

So what's the benefit of choosing right? We find a scum. We can stop now and proceed to lynch the person we were originally going to lynch. Then lynch the scumbag the next day. Or if we're feeling ambitious, we choose someone else to vig.

What's the penalty of choosing wrong? We lose a townie.

Now, finding a scum > losing a townie. However, we also have to consider our ability to choose correctly. I think it balances out to being worth it. But of course as I mentioned, townies have to agree to follow along or the strategy doesn't work and can harm us.

[Altilysian]

Want a hammer for your birthday?

[Altilysian]

Unvote

Vote: Cirno

I hammered GI more out of "fuck this, just end the day" than for information. I didn't care to analyze the wagon because at that point I wasn't going to put a lot of effort into this game. My vote on EK was more serious than my vote on DK or GI, but I was still in "fuck this shit" mode, hence the comment about Ainsley rather than an explanation of my vote.

I can understand not giving a fuck when hammering, but you continued that into the next day? Nope.

Avie bet go go.

[Altilysian]

Yeah vezok and EPM/Charlie, now that I think about it, are probably town.

Seacore #1829 and #1833 are good.

The only suspicion Calcifer has expressed of Seacore seems to be how he didn't take a hard stance on Cirno. During that episode, tried to paint Seacore as scummy for taking a more nuanced view on Cirno's anti-town behavior. That argument is bad. His recent contributions seem scarce too.

[Altilysian]

and Calcifer feels so strongly about Seacore that he calls him confirmed scum. Does not compute.

Vote: Calcifer

[Altilysian]

and Calcifer feels so strongly about Seacore that he calls him confirmed scum. Does not compute.

Vote: Calcifer

You've never heard a townie use that kind of language? Honey, you need to get out more.

You're so confident that Seacore is scum based on weak and bad reasoning, unless you want to give us more reasons why Seacore is scum.

I thought Amrun was scummy in the beginning when she jumped on the Snarky wave. However, she was kept at it even when town opinion has moved on, which makes her continual suspicions less scummy to me. Snarky does seem like a "scum whipping boy" though.

Amrun's refusal to claim reads more like refusal to take part in what appeared to be a futile exercise.

[Altilysian]

wow more than one hyena?

Vote: Calcifer

for the same reasons as yesterday + calling Amrun town. Throw in a bad tunneling accusation at Elvis too.

[Altilysian]

vezok and Charlie are probtown. I've had a town read on snarky for much of the game. That leaves Lowell. He was on the Llamarble wagon rather than the Hez wagon. I think he is scum. Looking at his interactions with confirmed scum do not make me think otherwise.

[Altilysian]

Vote: Lowell

[Altilysian]

Expression of almost child-like happiness. Anyway, I'm serious of doing those vote count analysis. I just need some time.

Yeah, let us know what you find. I tried my hand at it myself. Not really my thing. Only thing I noticed was snarky voting along with Amrun and Hez against ZeL1nk in the beginning but that was it.

[Altilysian]

I'm placing trust in EPM and vezok's early claims. What do you guys think about their status due to the claims?

[Altilysian]

I'm ok with releasing the QT.