Into Africa - Over

[elvis_knits]

I feel liked I missed all the fun already...

:reading:

[elvis_knits]

OK.

Town:
Fate
Elli
Silavor

Lean Town:
Earworm
llamarble
Amrun
seacore

VI:
Jil - sigh
Cirno - leaning scum on him for refusal to see how scummy FA is

Null:
Hez
Inhim
evilpacman
vezok

Needs to post:
People who haven't posted yet

Lean scum:
zelink

Scum:
FA
Snarky
Pappum early RVS vote staying out of trouble, voting off wagon
Peregrine post 144 RVS vote, ignoring all the actual scuminess going on

Fate-Elli-FA business

This is what happened:
1)Fate says he is in love with Elli.
2)FA votes Elli for selfvoting.
3)Fate votes snarky for rolefishing.
4)FA says "I WASN'T ROLEFISHING YOU EXPLETIVE, BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW ELLI IS TOWN?!"
5)Wagon forms on FA for rolefishing.
6)FA continues to rolefish by saying he is not rolefishing but keeps asking why Elli is town.
7)Fake vig is lol
8)FA claims

I feel the claim is null. I can see town claiming like that. I don't care about the claim business, I don't think it makes FA any more or less scummy. But I think FA is scum for repeated rolefishing, playing dumb and pretending he didn't realize he's rolefishing.

Also FA has been voting for what I call "technical inconsistencies that scum think look good, but not actually good reasons when you think about it."

Sucky votes:

Vote: Flavour Analysis

You've got a broken sarcasm detector

...I have this vague feeling there's some sarcasm I'm just not detecting.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2991458

Unvote Vote: Silavor

You are hypocritical.

^^ This is the type of thing that you can say is hypocritical, but it really does not seem like a scum type of hypocritical statement to me, more like two kind of stupid offhand joking remarks that contradict. But it's not about anything important. FA making a mountain out of a molehill here.

This is similar, but only FOS:

FoS: Jil

I was cussing as well.

Here, FA reads in some sort of hypocrisy on jil b/c jil mentions cussing but only attacks fate and not him also. :ROLL:

Vote Flavor Analysis

[elvis_knits]

OH! I also forgot to say that in addition to FA's vote on Silavor being the fake hypocrisy thing, it's disguised OMGUS.

[elvis_knits]

@Elvis Knits: Yes I know it wasn't the best reason to vote Silavor but I found it quite amusing so I brought it up. I admit it wasn't a good lead but I moved on from that.

So it was jokish?

How about the fos on jil?

[elvis_knits]

How was jil "selectively tunneling" on fate when she never even voted him? There was no vote, she even said she doesn't think he's scum. It was just a petty fight that you tried to blow out of proportion with your BS FOS.

Jil's dislike of cussing and whether she might have included everyone who cussed or not, seems so UNIMPORTANT.

And what would be her possible motive for only calling out fate and not you? Are you implying she'd leave you out because you're her buddy? I mean, the whole thing MAKES NO SENSE.

[elvis_knits]

In fact I find Cirno and Earmworm to be scummier than Elli and Silavor.

Why earworm?

[elvis_knits]

ckd and hez do not excite me.

Let's get back to lynching FA

[elvis_knits]

This is hard, sorting dumb from scum.

DK makes my brain hurt.

I daycopped you and got scum mmkay?
Earworm, why you felt need to point out fakedaykill was probably fake btw?

You are a daycop and who did you investigate?

I doubt you are telling the truth, the daycop thing flipped my head, and I was going to post something like that tommorow, so people may lie.

Not sure:
1)How you missed the supposed guilty was on YOU
2)What this means: "I was going to post something like that tommorow, so people may lie." You were going to fake claim daycop tomorrow?

...

Wut.

---

Snarky believes Elli's claim

....

Wut.

---

Starting to actually like Cirno now. Deleting from my VI list.

---

What's wrong with earworm? Not feeling it.

---

Haven't waded through Altisyian post; will do tomorrow.

---

I feel like jil is a puppy and I need to pet her.

---

Sorry this post is so random; i'm tired.

[elvis_knits]

Catching up...

Regarding Altilysian 274

I was pleasantly surprised.

First there's a whole catalogue of things that Alt DOESN'T find scummy. At first I was like, this is pointless, where is the scumhunting? Then Alt gets into some scum hunting and I found his comments original and insightful. I particularly enjoyed the point about llamarble doing nothing but sheeping. At the time it happened, I felt okay about llamarble because I think bandwagoning is good and I thought his vote(s) were not going in bad places. But since then, llamarble has not been participating in the game much, which makes me wonder if he was just sheeping.

The earworm problem generally seems to be this:
People say that earworm was coaching FA by pointing out the loldayvig was fake.
earworm is following ellifate
earworm says snarky was rolefishing, people don't see it

I'm not that concerned with the above because, 1)I don't think scum coach each other in thread if they can avoid it; 2)I don't think earworm is actually following ellifate; 3)bandwagoning in general does not bother me, context is what matters to me with that 4)I can see that earworm would say snarky was rolefishing.

I Isoed earworm to take another look at him though in case I was being dumb.

There were a few things I didn't like:
1)Don't agree about evilpacman
2)I think the peregrine 5-scum thing is preposterous.

JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE NAMES 5 SUSPECTS DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE SLIPPED AND SAID THERE IS A 5-MAN SCUM TEAM.

Boggles my mind why anyone who is not a VI would think that, which makes me think it's a scummy argument.

I will be rearranging my scum picks later today based on everything that has happened.

[elvis_knits]

@Flavor:
Scum is Atilysan and pappums Rat and Lowell.

Fate: started out with a great Lowell vote, but then flew around like crazy. Probably scum.

ZeLink: Scum

Flavor himself- town

Woah woah woah. Slow down. You suggesting we've got a five-man scum team?

The beginning of this 5-man scum team red herring.

Silavor falling in my town spirits.

Seriously, just because you name five people as probable scum does not mean you're saying the scum team has five members!

[elvis_knits]

FA, I'm still voting you because none of your explanations seemed good enough to me.

I think that scum often look for hypocrisy/inconsistencies in players so that they can vote them and look legitimate. However, some player inconsistencies are inconsequential. Scum don't always notice this because they're so hung up on catching someone in a "lie."

Your vote on silavor and your fos of Jil fall into that category for me.

Also, you never answered this:

How was jil "selectively tunneling" on fate when she never even voted him? There was no vote, she even said she doesn't think he's scum. It was just a petty fight that you tried to blow out of proportion with your BS FOS.

For you to say jil was SELECTIVELY TUNNELLING on fate is a HUGE stretch. You're just using that buzzword to make jil look like scum and justify yourself. Same thing with yelling "HYPOCRISY!!" or "we must kill self-voters." It's manipulative and misleading to use these terms in situations when they are clearly not the full story.

[elvis_knits]

elvis, can you read silavor in ISO and tell me what you think?

I was getting massive scum vibes from him even before his "slow down..." post to pere. Interested in why you thought he was town prior to that.

Silavor iso, not terribly much there. Not too worried by anything except this latest "5-man scum team" thing with peregrine.

I think I thought he was town on first look because his suspicions matched my own early. (ie, you and fa)

While we're talking, my unease with you has to do with 1)repeated talk of policy lynching (policy lynching can be okay, but when there's not so much effort being put into scum hunting it makes me nervous; you seem slightly better now also I can't really fault you for wanting DK dead) 2)Asked "Who should I vote for if I want to look more town?" Gave me bad vibes.

[elvis_knits]

Sigh... what did vezok just claim?

What, this?

I'm anteloping like my role-name suggests.

Please, how could this be a role claim? It's so subtle.

Yuppy.

Fate and elli in the same game. That's more like it.

First thing first.

vote Flavor

I'm anteloping

like my role-name suggests.

I want to get rid of DK like right now. Also jyl is pretty annoying too.

I was claiming Antelope.

I'm not claiming role lol.

This sure as hell seems to be a claim to me

Seacore. What's with the change in heart all of a sudden?

Oh God.

Seacore was joking the first time, so he removed sarcasm the second time.

DUH.

[elvis_knits]

Silavor, please respond to this:

JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE NAMES 5 SUSPECTS DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE SLIPPED AND SAID THERE IS A 5-MAN SCUM TEAM.

Please tell me why you would see pere name 5 suspects and be like: "OMG A SLIP THAT HE KNOWS THERE IS A 5-MAN SCUM TEAM!!!!"

[elvis_knits]

@elvis,

1) There are a few people that I'll suggest a PL on every game I'm in with them. DK is one. andrew94 is another. But I don't ever seriously push it. I just suggest it for discussion/reaction purposes.
2) It was a joke, clearly.

I don't think PL's are inherently scummy. I don't really agree on PL's, since I'd rather keep and work with a dumb townie than waste the lynch, but I know people who agree with you and I understand. I do think it can be exploited by scum, but it's not inherently scummy. Early game I saw more talk of PL's than scum hunting, which is what worried me.

I know it was a joke, but jokes like that worry me. More if I don't know you. Just something that makes me keep an eye on you.

[elvis_knits]

So what are you saying it was?

[elvis_knits]

...Exactly what I said it was at the time, obviously. I was genuinely wondering if he was suggesting we've got a five-man scum team.

But were you trying to call him scummy for it or not?

Like what was your judgement of that?

[elvis_knits]

Silavor... explaining more what I mean...

If you thought someone was saying there was exactly 5 scum, and not "maybe" five scum or some other number -- why wouldn't you think that is a slip?

I mean, why comment on it at all if you're not laying blame somewhere? In what way was it important to you otherwise?

I definitely thought you were trying to say the 5-scum thing was a slip. If you're not saying it was a slip... what was your point?

[elvis_knits]

So you thought it MIGHT be a slip?

[elvis_knits]

earworm - do you think peregrine made a slip about the five scum thing? You were very helpful in pointing out where silavor got it from after the fact.

[elvis_knits]

But you were helping out Silavor, soft-supporting him by showing others why he thought the 5-scum thing was legit.

If you thought it was BS I would expect you to say it was BS. I mean, you gave your opinion about the fakevig thing right away, so why was your behavior so different here?

[elvis_knits]

Checking in. Anything to add? Nope.

Just when I was starting to like you.

[elvis_knits]

tajo, re:cirno - Irreverent attitude, he made a few sort of good remarks yesterday

First I thought he was scummy, then I thought maybe I was wrong about him, now I'm back to leaning scummy on him. He has shown he's not VI, so I expect more at this point from him. And instead I got less.

[elvis_knits]

jil needs to post reads and participate in this game.

And I agree that failure to participate helpfully is scummy.

However, I think she's slow lane, so I am willing to give her a little bit of a chance here and then decide on her based on what she says when we force her to try harder.

She seems a bit like an easy mark to me.

[elvis_knits]

So at this point, I have decided that we need a silavor wagon.

I have thought about the 5-scum debacle, and I do not like it. I do not like that he
1)blew pere's post completely out of proportion as if he thought that pere made a slip.
2)got angry when questioned about it, saying I was twisting his words and he never thought it was a slip
3)when questioned further he hedges and admits he was WONDERING whether it was a slip. So basically I was right that was where he was going with the 5-scum thing, so I wasn't twisting his words.

And now he piles onto the earworm wagon with no original thought or reasoning.

Hmm. Fine.

unvote

vote: earworm

The cases against earworm make the most sense to me right now. Having a vote on Ze's not doing anything productive anymore.

This is an opportunistic FAILVOTE if I ever saw one.

None of his posts ever really talk about earworm, or say why he might be suspicious of earworm, or what part of the case on earworm he agrees with. This is a crapvote. This is Silavor hoping earworm wagon takes off instead of his.

Nice try!

unvote: FA; vote: Silavor

[elvis_knits]

So at this point, I have decided that we need a silavor wagon.

For anyone who missed this, consider it your invitation to join the party.

[elvis_knits]

Scummy things that happened:

Silavor didn't defend his earworm vote; never explained what he agrees with on other people's cases
Cirno is asked for top three scum picks and responds by saying he dislikes me and amrun's FA cases = not an answer to the question

---

On the topic of jil:

I am now understanding more why people find her scummy. Elli's reason did seem somewhat reasonable.

The whole "I didn't get my role pm" thing:

WIFOM. SO I was trying not to dwell on it. I would expect that llama sent out roles correctly. We had a pretty long pregame too, so it seems strange that jil wouldn't notice she didn't get a role pm. But it seems she is VI (confirmation anybody?), which makes this more believable. If she legitimately didn't get her role PM, it means nothing about her allignment unless you think her scumbuddies would have contacted her and alerted her. If it's a fake, she's scum. However, I really don't know how we can know for sure. I think it's WIFOM, and I tend ot think she is VI who didn't notice her role PM - meaning she can be either scum or town and we just have to look at her to find out.

So I guess I'm still suspending judgement and want to hear her suspicions on the game before deciding. And like... she better post something meaty soon or else there will be trouble.

[elvis_knits]

JIL - GIVE US YOUR TOP SUSPECTS FOR SCUM, NOW PLEASE!

Even better, do a rundown of every player, giving a sentence about your feeling on them.

[elvis_knits]

>is elvis the only one attacking FA?

Doesn't matter how many people were attacking FA. The one I most had a problem with was elvis.

You need to say why.

>Cirno [...] dislikes me and amrun's FA cases

I dislike elvis' attack on FA. Amrun is just someone I dislike in general so far, not particularly for anything in relation to FA.

>not an answer to the question

I gave two. dealwithit.jpg

Don't make me do this:

[elvis_knits]

FA, I still think you have been manipulative on a couple occasions. Calling a dumb joke "hypocrisy" (silavor), saying jil was "selectively tunnelling" when she only got angry at Fate and not you for cussing. Basically, you're not going to convince me that these things were done in good faith by explaining again and again because it clearly does not seem believable to me. We're at the point where I am pursuing other scummy players, but will continue to look at you to refine my read. I often find I get a better read from watching more current and future actions and things play out instead of beating a dead horse. So if you're town I would ask that you just scum hunt and try to show me and others that you are town.

Now, you have not answered my question and I’d like for you to answer it please:

Question

: “Why exactly is Earworm town to you? So you found Silavor town for agreeing with you, not for pro-town motivation? How do you feel about Amrun buddying you so adamantly?”

I think your reason for voting me is pretty weak. I have never role fished. Again, my Silavor and Elli votes were early in RVS. You didn’t even get here until page 7, #156. You had more content to read and analyze, while I had little to base my reads on and had actually started discussion myself. If you self vote, I will yell at you. If you self hammer, I will yell at you endgame and lose respect for you (if you were town).

FA, I said I leaned town on Earworm in my second post of the game, and then after that was saying I didn't really see the case on him. And I have made a post on my thoughts on earworm, so I was not trying to ignore you.

The earworm problem generally seems to be this:
People say that earworm was coaching FA by pointing out the loldayvig was fake.
earworm is following ellifate
earworm says snarky was rolefishing, people don't see it

I'm not that concerned with the above because, 1)I don't think scum coach each other in thread if they can avoid it; 2)I don't think earworm is actually following ellifate; 3)bandwagoning in general does not bother me, context is what matters to me with that 4)I can see that earworm would say snarky was rolefishing.

I Isoed earworm to take another look at him though in case I was being dumb.

There were a few things I didn't like:
1)Don't agree about evilpacman
2)I think the peregrine 5-scum thing is preposterous.

If you would like me to talk more about this I can. I'm just not that concerned with earworm at the moment. The sheeping thing is not that exciting to me. I might have a greater tolerance for bandwagoning, so I don't always mind minimal reasoning if I feel a player is voting moderately well.

I will say that I don't like how helpful earworm was in pointing out how silavor got the 5-scum thing from peregrine's post. It looked like he supported Silavor, but now he says he didn't. It felt to me like earworm was purposely helping make a mountain out of a molehill. So THAT is the only thing I really care about because I feel like it was likely dishonest and manipulative.

Is that enough earworm for you?

Re: Silavor, I found him town early because he hadn't done anything scummy yet and I saw you attacking him and I didn't like you. Things have really changed since then, but that was my early feeling.

Re: Amrun, I've played with her before and posted a little with her in GD. To me, it's more of a friendship thing than buddying, but I can see how you might think that. I think we have a similar ballsy attitude about playing mafia that we have come to appreciate on each other. I've only played with her once (we were both town - well, she was survivor - and we were at each other's throats because we can both be stubborn). In that game though the topic of her meta did come up, so I have a little more understanding of her meta than one game. I have the impression that she tries harder when she's mafia to placate people and SEEM town, and when she actually is town she tends to try to placate people less and is more like "fuck you I'll vote who I want MF'er!" So I don't put a TON of stock in meta, things change and people can try to alter their playstyle, but I do take it into account a bit. So if anyone thinks she's scummy I encourage them to explore that as I can't know for sure, and who knows if I'm right. FWIW, I don't find her scummy at the moment.

[elvis_knits]

Silavor, can you tell us what you agree on with the earworm cases? You still haven't done that.

[elvis_knits]

silavor has expressed no suspicion of Snarky all game...

THIS IS SO TRUE!

[elvis_knits]

silavor has expressed no suspicion of Snarky all game...

THIS IS SO TRUE!

Anyway, FA, with regards to the snarky votes they're neither RVS or PL votes; they're just votes. Some of his posts earlier on really seem like subtle rolefishing, and that's why the bandwagon started. Nothing to do with RVS or PL.

Can y'all stop being dumbasses long enough to at least get your facts straight? Please?

All I see is you explaining the wagon on Snarky to FA. I don't see you saying you think Snarky is scum. This is the only time you mention snarky at all and you never voted him.

[elvis_knits]

I was too busy voting Ze to vote snarky. If I had multiple votes I would have, but I don't so I didn't.

Doesn't explain why you never said you thought he was scum. You can still say that without voting him.

Still waiting on explanation of what/why you agree with earworm cases. I've asked a bunch of times now. You keep posting and not explaining.

---

Silavor has 9 votes now, by my count. That's L-4.

[elvis_knits]

WHY ARE WE DEFUSING THE SILAVOR WAGON?

QFT

FOCUS GUYS!

WE ARE LYNCHING SILAVOR!

[elvis_knits]

WHY ARE WE DEFUSING THE SILAVOR WAGON?

QFT

FOCUS GUYS!

WE ARE LYNCHING SILAVOR!

Nah, not today. But you and Tajo get to play the Silavor wagon challenge:


silavor () - evilpacman18, ZeL1nK, Seacore, elvis_knits, Amrun, populartajo, Llamarble, inHimshallibe, Snarky, earworm

You have to tell me that you have town reads on half this wagon, name which players, and then give me reasons why. 'cause this wagon is radioactive.

Butbutbut, I don't wanna play that game...

I guess I will play though if only for the sake of rethinking my reads and seeing if you might have a point.

However, even if you think there's a lot of scum on a wagon doesn't mean it's a bad wagon. If scum is caught, his buddies buss. So, I think you have to tell me

Why you think Silavor is town

before we decide that it's a bad wagon.

Thoughts on Silavor's wagon:

evilpacman

just played the "I'm gonna lurk" card

These games that get 10 pages within a couple hours of opening always scare me into lurking.

Not a fan.

However,

I'm willing to bet that scum are humans with guns.

"Into Africa, a 24 player preditor-prey large theme is underway [0] spots remaining."

I think this most likely disprove's Pacman's theory.

Bah.

unvote

vote: silavor

So. I've been thinking about this. Predator-prey doesn't mean that humans are not scum, does it? I mean, I think the thinking here from FA, and then evilpacman was that predator means animal and not human. But I think human can be predators too, technically. ANYWAY, whether it is right or wrong, we see pacman throw out an idea about scum roles and then get convinced that he's wrong. pacman is likely town, unless you think this was a tricksy faked townslip. There's always that chance, but it's low, IMO.

Sidenote: FA was quick to "disprove" evilpacman's human scum role theory, even though llama's predator-prey statement doesn't actually rule out humans in my mind. Because FA has a scum role and he is not human? I think if we kill a scum and see what the role is (human or animal), it may be enlightening.

zelink

null/lean town on him. I had early suspicion on him for policy lynch stuff, which I think can be exploited by scum. However he has earned town points recently from me for several of his reads. He said pacman was town, sees silavor as scum, there are others. I'm not sure I agree with him entirely about his reads, but I think he's generally not too bad and he seems to be actively scumhunting.

Seacore

null/slight town
Hasn't posted nearly enough for me to think he's actually being helpful. However, his two votes have been on snarky and silavor, which are both good votes, IMO.

elvis-knits

hell yeah town

Amrun

lean town. Bouncing around a bit, pissing people off as usual (I say this with love).

tajo

lean town. Hasn't done anything scummy, pressuring scummy people.

llamarble

null-scum. Does nothing, full of excuses, hops on largest wagons without much reason.

inhim

null. not very active, which is a bit worrisome. I have to iso him again, but feel it would be inconclusive.

snarky

scummy. rolefisher.

earworm

lean scummy at this point for 1)helpfully pointing out the 5-scum thing with silavor, then saying he never agreed with it = helping make mountain out of molehill; 2) saving his own bacon by voting silavor now.

TLDR: Silavor is still scum. Early wagon is town. Late wagon has some scum on it who are bussing silavor.

[elvis_knits]

stupidposting

Are you trying to say that you were stupidposting on purpose and then purposely ignoring my questions to get a better read? Like acting scummy to see how I reacted?

[elvis_knits]

Ok Grey... but you have to tell me why you think silavor is town.

Seacore - not sure why he didn't like his company on the wagon. IMO scummy voters came later. Also, no reasoning provided, hedging a lot, saying he doesn't like the other voters and he's maybe only sitting there "at this stage."

llamarble vote - rehash of cases, could be genuine, could be just copying. I've never been a fan of "looks like he's scum getting mad for being caught for the wrong reasons." Don't like that he says he's going to look at the top wagons but then only looks at one and stops there.

inhim - not enough posting

snarky - omgus fueled, which seems like less of a buss.

earworm has a point about silavor not scumhunting (and this is an original reason). His placement on the wagon alone just makes me suspicious because he's likely saving himself by furthering the silavor wagon. TBH, this one feels like less of a buss to me.

Conclusions: Seacore, llamarble, inhim more likely of bussing if silavor flips scum. snarky, earworm most likely of being scum if silavor is town.

[elvis_knits]

stupidposting

Are you trying to say that you were stupidposting on purpose and then purposely ignoring my questions to get a better read? Like acting scummy to see how I reacted?

In a word, yes.

This only makes me more sure you're scum.

Acting like scum is not something townies do to catch scum.

Nice try though.

[elvis_knits]

So, Silavor

seems

town right now

Nope. He seems scummier than ever before.

Thankfully there is wagon I fully support up here.

VOTE: Evilpacman

Evilpacman is very likely town, try again.

[elvis_knits]

WHY PACMAN IS TOWN:

I'm willing to bet that scum are humans with guns.

"Into Africa, a 24 player preditor-prey large theme is underway [0] spots remaining."

I think this most likely disprove's Pacman's theory.

Bah.

unvote

vote: silavor

So. I've been thinking about this. Predator-prey doesn't mean that humans are not scum, does it? I mean, I think the thinking here from FA, and then evilpacman was that predator means animal and not human. But I think human can be predators too, technically. ANYWAY, whether it is right or wrong, we see pacman throw out an idea about scum roles and then get convinced that he's wrong. pacman is likely town, unless you think this was a tricksy faked townslip. There's always that chance, but it's low, IMO.

Sidenote: FA was quick to "disprove" evilpacman's human scum role theory, even though llama's predator-prey statement doesn't actually rule out humans in my mind. Because FA has a scum role and he is not human? I think if we kill a scum and see what the role is (human or animal), it may be enlightening.

[elvis_knits]

@Elvis Knits:
Again, disagree. I told you my vote on him was semi-serious. The Jil FoS was due to a misunderstanding.

I'm not sure how many times we can say "I disagree" to each other on the same topics. I told you what I think, and you told me what you think. Hooray. I'd rather move on and disagree on new stuff then constantly rehash if we have nothing new to say.

I know that, that was why I asked. I didn’t like that you didn’t explain why you didn’t get the case on Earworm. You didn’t explain Earworm until your #322, and I have asked before and you only explained Earworm because Atil asked you. I feel if someone bandwagons a lot, they make it harder to read them because we can’t really see their motive except “trying to pressure people” from it. So Earworm and InHim falls into that. InHim always does that.

I was saying I didn't get the case on earworm because I didn't find him scummy at the time and I didn't feel people were explaining their reasons well enough or I didn't agree on their case and wanted more explanation. If you object to the way I went about trying to get people to talk about earworm, then... okay. I make every attempt to explain myself, so I'm kind of surprised that you feel I was not being transparent about earworm. If I didn't go through a long explanation with you right away it's probably because I felt it should be obvious.

In your #322, you say that Earworm is following ElliFate. Which wagon to you mean he was following? Define ‘voting moderately well’ please. Not quite, seeing as I have a question addressed to you about him. Almost though.

I was summarizing what I understood to be the case against earworm when I said he was following ellifate. Probably the votes on snarky and you. However, I didn't feel like these were necessarily bad votes, so that's why I felt he was still voting moderately well.

What question are you talking about? You're kind of losing me here...

Re: Sillyvore: See, I don’t like you attacking him now, since you DID have a town read. That gets at me. Now because of his dumbpostingz I have a null on him (because it can go either way, either town gambiting to catch opportunistic scum, or scum faking town motivation to avoid a D1 lynch), and my read on him will depend on what he does after this. I don’t usually look for people ‘slip hunting’ but it seems you and Amrun both do look for those things and I have seen her do this before so I think it’s legit in her case.

ARE YOU BEING DELIBERATELY OBTUSE?

I will go through this again.

Early game Silavor hadn't done anything scummy so I had a town read on him. Silavor did scummy stuff, so I questioned him about it, answers were bad or non-existent, so I changed my read. Where is the problem.

I will also cliff's notes Silavore's scumminess for you:
1)Pere names five scum suspects
2)Silavor goes "OMG ARE YOU SAYING THERE'S A 5-MAN SCUM TEAM?"
3)I ask if Silavor was saying Pere slipped.
4)Silavor tells me I'm twisting his words
5)I ask him to explain
6)He explains he was only WONDERING if it was a slip, not saying it was (tapdancing)
7)Silavor sees earworm wagon and jumps on without giving reasoning
8)I ask him repeatedly why he thinks earworm is scum, he never answers
9)Fate mentions Snarky; Silavor is all "YEAH SNARKY IS THE BIGGEST SCUM IN THE SCUMIVERSE" (even though silavor never mentioned snarky as scum before.)
10)Silavor comes out and says "lol all my scummy actions were me acting scummy on purpose to catch scum lol."

In case you don't understand why 10) is so scummy:
A)Town do not act scummy on purpose to catch scum. Because when you act scummy you are just as likely to draw attacks from town as well as scum. So it doesn't actually work. And meanwhile, you are distracting from the real scum. So it fails on two levels. IT IS NOT A STRATEGY THAT WORKS, AND NO TOWNIE COULD POSSIBLY THINK IT WOULD WORK.
B)It is a convenient excuse for scum who have been caught acting scummy. When all else fails and you can't think of a good reason for all your scummy actions, admit they are scummy and say you did it on purpose as part of some genius gambit to catch scum. Except that it's not a genius gambit (hint: see A).

[elvis_knits]

Do you really think he's town?

[elvis_knits]

This is my attempt at a sort. I'm not sure I'm completely happy with it, but it shows the general direction of my thinking, and I look forward to people helping me with it.

OBVTown

elvis_knit
populartajo
vezokpiraka - claim
evilpacman18 - townslip
Amrun
curiouskarmadog

Prob Town

Fate - (him and Elli have been downgraded from obvtown because they're not participating enough at the mo)
Altilysian - shows original thought, mostly but not all stuff I agree with
Ellibereth
ZeL1nk

Null

GreyICE - like his playstyle but he's being ridiculous saying evilpacman is scum, more ridiculous refusing to see Silavor is scum
jilynne1991 - VI
DietyKabuto - VI

LURKING/active lurking

HezLucky
Lowell
inHimshallibe - lack of reasoning on the sil wagon perhaps bussing
Cirno - contributions might be the worst in the game, not amused by her posts any longer

TOP SUSPECTS

Flavour Analysis - you know
earworm - did not like his participation in the 5-man scum slip thing, vote on silavor to save is bacon, now votes townevilpacman
Seacore - lack of meaningful contributions
Llamarble - lack of meaningful contribution, promise to look at top wagons + only looked at 1
snarky - rolefishing

NEEDS DEATH ASAP

silavor

[elvis_knits]

Hey Hez, Silavor is scum.

[elvis_knits]

elvis, how can you think vezok and pacman are town for their clams/townslips but not FA? pacman's 'townslip' was based on FA's zebra claim. Unless you're talking about a different town slip here. Like yeah, I can understand that you have problems with his play, but he's town.

I don't think pacman is town for his claim.

I think pacman is town because he hypothesized scum=humans. FA pointed out the mod says this game is "predator-prey." They both took this to mean all animals.

(Personally, I think we still don't know that humans aren't involved, because they can be predators. But that doesn't matter.)

What matters is that pacman made a speculation on who the scum are, and then became convinced he was wrong.

You're right that pacman and FA both claimed zebra though... I have to think about that.

WHY did pacman claim? Wasn't it for no reason?

[elvis_knits]

Cirno, are you actually reading the game?

[elvis_knits]

Cirno,

How do you feel about a player (silavor) who says they were acting scummy on purpose to catch scum?

Can you buy that as a legitimate strategy?

[elvis_knits]

OK, I thought he was scum too, but:

WHY DID THE FINAL FOUR VOTES OF THE WAGON COME WITHIN 8 POSTS?

Evilpacman quickhammers without asking for a claim. I am toying with the idea that evilpacman's claim and townslip was to manufactured to confirm FA and himself. Not sure how likely it is... probably a paranoia scenario, but possible.

Not a fan of THIS:

DA FUCK?!

I hope I didn't actually cause that.

(Followed quickly but "I hope he was scum derp.")

This really feels like he knew Silavor was going to flip town, otherwise why worry about being responsible for evilpacman's quickhammer?

vote llamarble

[elvis_knits]

lol

[elvis_knits]

Nobody voted you, DK.

[elvis_knits]

Mmmm... the votes on llamarble are getting worse and worse. Least favorite is definitely Snarky's. And this wagon looks set to build as quickly as silavor's.

Whose llamarble votes do you think are bad (besides snarky)? Why do you think llamarble is town and needs defending?

Also, nothing wrong with quick wagons, unless SOMEBODY QUICKHAMMERS. *COUGH COUGH*

[elvis_knits]

I didn't like Elvi's reaction to the final four votes. I do agree that Llama only seemed to care if he caused the commotion instead of yelling at Pacman for hammering.

Are you just trying to jab me? I don't see what you could possibly dislike. We had the last four votes of the lynch come down in 8 posts. That's 1/3 of the lynch. Don't you think that's strange?

---

Some NK speculation:

-I've been accused of rolefishing Elli
-I've been accused of not being a bright light
-Elli started the case on me

Thus, because I'm not a bright light, as scum I would have killed Elli. It would only be logical that town goes after me today. But hey that's not happening! That's why ZeLink remembers town the case on me without saying exactly why he thinks I'm scum and without voting me.

unvote

vote:Zelink

Prediction of Zelink next post: blabla speculation bullshit OMGUS vote Snarky

(I usually get killed when I make such speculation posts but I don't mind. You can not agree with me, everything makes sense in my head, and Zelink is 99,9% scum from my POV)

You should have stuck to just voting llamarble. I had mostly forgotten your rolefishing thing was with Elli, and really made no connection between you and the NK.

Now you're saying that zelink tried to frame you by NK'ing Elli, thinking we would wagon you today. Since nobody seemed to care very much about you, zelink brought you up without bringing up rolefishing elli, INTENDING to somehow connect you to the NK without mentioning the NK or elli or rolefishing.

HOLY CONVOLUTED.

I'm not sure how much I care about the rolefishing thing at this point. I'd have to look back at your posts and see if I see anything else that bothers me about you. I feel like we're getting far enough into the game where I wouldn't just hold on to one thing like that if I didn't see anything else. I'll take a look at you later.

But the above is ridiculous, and unfair to zelink (who I find townier than you). You guys hate each other; we understand. Try not to get paranoid though.

[elvis_knits]

What I hoped I had not caused was EPM's hammer.

Why would you hope you hadn't cause the hammer if you didn't know if it was on scum or town?

If it was on scum, it would have been a good thing, so there would be nothing to feel guilty about.

[elvis_knits]

Llamarble explained nothing though.

[elvis_knits]

Llamarble explained nothing though.

He explained the "did I cause that?"

Llamarble, why did you ecourage a claimless hammer onnly to detract that after someone followed your advice?

Claimless hammer is only bad if silavor is town though. So I don't feel like anything llamarble has said makes that any better.

Also, he hasn't done really anything helpful this game. All he's done is offer a bunch of lame excuses and sheep.

[elvis_knits]

FA - stop with the wall of death posts please.

1) I never said I thought evilpacman was scum. I thought silavor was scum. That's who I was referring to, obv.

2) I still think the final four votes on silavor coming in 8 posts is weird. But I guess I'm not sure exactly what to do with that. I still think it's weird and we have to remember that, and maybe come back to that if anyone can come up with something. Of the final four voters, vezok seems VI, DK is VI, Fate is unpredictable, and evilpacman did a WTF. So maybe it was just the perfect storm... I can't really explain it. vezok and evilpacman seem prob town to me because of claims/slips. (If you can't understand why, read my posts, because I have explained it). DK is DK, he could be scum or town. Fate I had a town read early, but he hasn't done much in a long time, so I'm not as sure about him either. Although Fate's intention seemed to be to vote silavor to push a claim for him and move the game along, not to quicklynch. I don't know, the whole thing is a MESS for me.

3)llamarble was not part of the final four votes, but he had voted silavor earlier (then jumped off after I said he could be a possible scum on the wagon). Then he posted his intention to hammer silavor, and his urge to quickhammer. So even if he's not on the actual wagon, he might as well have been.

4) I can't believe you don't see how scummy llamarble is, but I will explain again for you.

Look at these two posts. Here llamarble says he wants to hammer silavor, and expects silavor to fakeclaim. He is so sure silavor is scum that he doesn't even want silavor to claim.

Tempted to just quickhammer Silavor before he fakeclaims. "I was purposely stupidposting" reminds me of BGG, except Silavor is not bgg.
Why purposely stupidpost?
That wall smells of scumwall. Grey why is he town again?
Sketchy wagon should count against him not for him since if there aren't CWs scum are likely bussing.

Then evilpacman quickhammers, and this is llamarble's reaction:

DA FUCK?!

I hope I didn't actually cause that.

If llamarble was so sure silavor was scum, WHY feel guilty about causing a quickhammer? He got exactly what he wanted -- silavor was lynched without claiming, and suddenly he feels bad about it?

It's totally scummy whatever his motivation.

As speculation, the whole things looks like llamarble was setting us up to discount any claim that silavor might make and push the lynch through regardless. I don't think he actually intended to quicklynch silavor. But then evilpacman did quicklynch silavor and llamarble went "Oops," now they're going to blame me when silavor flips town." Except only scum would know that silavor would flip town.

[elvis_knits]

Thoughts on Hez:

I don't care that he voted ckd without finishing his reread. If that's who he thought was scummy based on what he'd read, that's... okay.

I think it's possible there is some playstyle differences between old-school and new-school going on here. Hez view of what is scummy tends toward what I remember from when I joined, and not the current climate. Ie: Hez thinking Elli was anti-town.

I don't like that he hasn't kept up with the game very much or done much except vote ckd. I know Hez is not an idiot, so his lack of input on other players is concerning.

I'd like to hear more reads from Hez.

I don't like his reaction to tajo:

Tajo already got silavor wrong. How many more does he need to lynch before this scumbag hangs?

This is the same BS DK was trying to pull with me except Hez should know better.

[elvis_knits]

Elvis-knits: You are right; there is more to the llamarble case, as you have (solidly) provided. However, I am not abandoning that case. Instead, I think that Snarky got scummier in the meantime and that his nk spec is lynchworthy. Not sure why it is being ignored. In addition, llamarble is promising content and I'd like to see it. Llamarble is a good wagon.

I think the snarky nk speculation is very wrong and very odd. I can see why you think it's scummy, but I'm not sure I agree. I think it's possible that he's just being dumb and caught up in his little feud with zelink, so I'm not interested in going after it unless I see other things I don't like. However, it's kind of a gut thing on my part, so if you feel differently, you should go after him.

And yes, llamarble is still a good wagon. He continues to do nothing.

Hez wagon is a little bit crazy monkeys, but there are some things about Hez I don't like, so those crazy monkeys might be onto something. I'm going to wait and see if he starts helping and giving reads that seem to make sense to better make up my mind there. In the meantime, llamarble needs to die.

[elvis_knits]

First of all, why did all the fun stuff have to happen when I was offline? That end of day was action packed. I think there's tons to analyze.

1)CKD - Vig or SK? We've seen daykills, so if he's not the vig, the real vig will vig him, correct? That's how I've always played. Unless we think there is no vig, and the daykills are the SK, and is CKD. In essence though, we can control/restrict his kills from now on though, so he's not dangerous. If he's SK we have to get rid of him before endgame, obv, but we have some time to sort that out. I would rather go after Hez buddies than lynch CKD who is maybe vig, maybe SK who can't shoot without our permission.

2)Hez did his best not to connect himself to anyone, I see a slight support of Seacore in #308. I think most of his stuff about FA does not look like he's bussing his buddy, which makes me have to conclude that FA is probably not scum even though he drives me bananas.

3) My new list

TOWN

Amrun (still gut)
vezokpiraka (claim)
tajo (turned wagon from ckd to Hez... not Hez buddy)
Flavour Analysis (Hez's treatment did not seem like a buss)
evilpacman18 (claim)
ZeL1nk (gut mostly)
Altilysian (gut again)
Grey (he switched from ckd to hez at a crucial time. Tajo started it, but Grey got it going)

NEUTRAL

Lowell
DietyKabuto
Cirno
curiouskarmadog
Llamarble - at best, he is useless, didn't even vote yesterday; since he was the rival wagon to Hez less chance he's scum too
snarky

SCUM

inHimshallibe/calcifer - inhim did nothing, and calcifer came in and voted hez when hez was already hammered - no town points for that.
Seacore - totally tried to lynch CKD over Hez yesterday, while saying nothing abotu Hez
earworm - tried to save Hez's bacon during the late day action

I'm most sure on Seacore because Seacore never mentioned Hez. EVER. Which is really really fucking strange. I mean, he was clearly a lynch candidate, so a townie would say SOMETHING about him, even if they were wrong. So while earworm supported Hez, and that's scummy, it's like even fucking scummier to say nothing about Hez and vote CKD.

Vote Seacore

[elvis_knits]

You still get no brownie points for that hammer, Calcifer. L-1 is a fast sinking ship, so it's prime bussing zone.

[elvis_knits]

Grey (he switched from ckd to hez at a crucial time. Tajo started it, but Grey got it going)

No. He didn't switch at a crucial time. He switched after the ckd wagon collapsed. Specifically after Fate and vezok abandoned it. The ckd wagon was dead and gone at that point. Hez was the only one left on it after GI abandoned it.

You need to re-evaluate this. Go back and look at GI D2...

Oh, I thought GI was before fate and vezok. That changes things for me.

[elvis_knits]

Hammer another scum and we'll talk.

[elvis_knits]

@elvis,

It went tajo->fate->vezok->GI(derp "fate is bussing"). Atil joined after that, too. Hez was the only one left on ckd after GI abandoned it.

You're right!

I thought GI followed tajo for some reason, and was excusing all his other behavior because of that.

[elvis_knits]

After his last post, I think we can safely assume earworm is scum.

[elvis_knits]

So you think that as scum he decided to fakeclaim zebra (VT) for no reason, and then got lucky that it's actually a role that other people have? Cause if he said zebra (VT) and somebody was a zebra (PR), or if there was only one kind of VT and it wasn't zebra, he would be fucking himself for no reason.

[elvis_knits]

EK, it wouldn't surprise me if scum were given all the VT animals at the beginning of the game. Makes sense, scum would know what's on the menu.

I've never heard of anything REMOTELY like this.

...

Ya know, there are few things scum hate more than confirmed townies. It makes the game soooo much harder for them to win because they're already trying to kill power roles and people who suspect them.

[elvis_knits]

Ok Seacore. The thing about the people I'm semi-confirming in this game is I don't think that I am 100% right, but that I am VERY likely right. So like, if you really had a good case and a good explanation, maybe I could go for it. But I just think it's stupid to look at those people (like pacman or vezok) first when they are very likely town and we have so much other scummy people to choose from.

Seacore - this is what I need you to do:

1)Stop giving excuses like "I'm useless early game" and "oops I've been skimming"

2)Explain why you never commented on Hez

3)Give reads on every player in the game

[elvis_knits]

Current thoughts:

Seacore: hasn't made me feel any better about him. His excuse for not mentioning Hez is that he hasn't mentioned many people because he's been skimming. That's lame because my point is that Hez was a big deal yesterday and it's completely unnatural not to mention him or take a stand on him at all. Even if you're skimming you have to say something about Hez. Also, he's still not posting reads, which is not cool, and exactly what Hez was doing yesterday.

Earworm: Also scum.

GreyIce: Increasingly suspicious of him since sorting out my mis-remembering of the Hezwagon. I don't like that he thinks Seacore is town because "Seacore isn't flailing." The fact that Seacore continues to do nothing useful doesn't make me think he's town. It's actually the way Hez acted yesterday. Also Grey is ignoring Seacore's suspicious treatment of Hez.

Llamarble:

Atil: Need to reread after reading this:

Look at Atil's jump on Hez, and IMMEDIATE ABANDON SHIP from him. *Take into account he may be a semi-newb.

I don't remember this so I'm gonna look back. I don't know how new Atil is, but he seems pretty smart, so I wouldn't give him too much of an excuse in that regard. He does not strike me as VI-ish at all.

[elvis_knits]

Cirno, I don't care if you don't want to actually go to the trouble to quote people, but can you make a note of who said the things you're answering from now on? I find it confusing to read without knowing who you're talking to, especially when you answer questions from multiple people in one post.

[elvis_knits]

Heeeeeeey

Sorry I got distracted by holiday weekend. I will get back on track today.

[elvis_knits]

Scummiest (active):
Seacore (happy he gave reads and seems to be participating a lot more, but I don't agree with his reads)
Earworm
GI (his jump-ship from CKD to Hez was really bad after I looked back at it, likely bussing)

Something I notice about the above players is that they're going after people who prob aren't scum, like EPM or Vezok, or lurkery people who might be scum but it's based mostly on a lack of doing anything useful than actual scummy actions.

---

Scummiest (lurkery):
Lowell
Calcifer
DK

These people continue to disappoint, and may be scum, but they bother me less than the first group. I think these people should be vigged if/when possible.

---

Regarding CKD and the hyena flavor thing. I think he might be vig, might be SK, but I don't think the flavor condemns him. I mean, what flavor would you expect for a vig in this game? Hippo who sits on others to kill them? Vigs are kills, flavor could understandably reflect that.

---

I don't care for the Amrun wagon. I can see some of the points against her, but I have a gut town read on her. I could be wrong, but I'm not interested in pursuing her when I see other people I definitely find scummy.

---

1) What smelled off about you? Your contributions to the game were an enormous pig fart. You tunneled on one player and didn't even comment on ANYTHING else happening. Every post was just more whining about that one player. Apparently you have turned that into a playstyle. Good job. It's scummy, it's useless, and it accomplishes nothing.

Not a fan of this at all. CKD tunneled on Hez. ON SCUM. How is that scummy? I really don't like GI trying to say CKD is scummy for tunneling on HezSCUM. It's like he's angry that CKD caught Hez.

unvote; vote GreyICE

[elvis_knits]

Hey GreyIce,

1) What smelled off about you? Your contributions to the game were an enormous pig fart. You tunneled on one player and didn't even comment on ANYTHING else happening. Every post was just more whining about that one player.

Apparently you have turned that into a playstyle. Good job. It's scummy

, it's useless, and it accomplishes nothing.

You said that CKD's playstyle is to whine about one player repeatedly. And that it's scummy.

Well, it lynched Hez, who was scum, so how's that scummy?

You can pretend you didn't know Hez was scum at the time, but that's not the point. YOU'RE SAYING IT NOW. YOU'RE CALLIMG HIS PLAYSTYLE SCUMMY... NOW.

Even if you're town, CKD would still be batting 50%, so how can you say that his playstyle sucks and IT'S SCUMMY???

---

1) Scum night kill reveals we're off on day 1 wagons.

What does the NK have to do with anything?

2) I relook over the thread, and the HezLucky/CKD interaction is scum as shit, leading me to believe one or both of them is scum. CKD is tunneling like a 'tard, Hez is saying nothing repeatedly. I kick the bee's nest. A fucking SCUM LYNCH comes out of it.

That's not what happened though. You went after CKD and when the wagon died and you were the only one hanging around on CKD were forced to vote Hez. You get zero credit for being on Hez.

3) Apparently I was supposed to mystically know that CKD was town at the start of day 2, somehow.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying you're throwing mud at him now.

4) Apparently you want to ignore that I agree he's very unlikely to be scum on day 3.

Well, you said his playstyle is SCUMMY just now.

[elvis_knits]

Yo.

I totally realize the question was why you thought CKD was scummy at the start of D2. But you went on to comment on his playstyle in general. Otherwise why would you say that he had turned this tunnelling behavior into a

playstyle

? You mean he tunnelled on hez and now you. Right? And you called that scummy.

Other points:

1) NK's are largely WIFOM, but sometimes they tell us something. But I'm asking what IN PARTICULAR about that NK made you wagon CKD. I just see no correlation.

2) Your Hez vote sucked. It was a reaction to your CKD wagon dying and everybody moving to Hez. Your reason was "oh Hez must be fate's buddy." WTF kind of reason is that? You know what that seems like to me? Try to tie a townie to your buddy who is going down, that's what it seems like to me. OR maybe just throw some doubt on the people wagoning your buddy. Either way.

If you want me to believe you weren't bussing Hez, you need to explain more why you voted for Hez, because I see no real reasoning there, which leads me to believe you just didn't want to be caught on the wrong side of the CKD/Hez debacle.

[elvis_knits]

llamarble, do you see any particular link between GI and lowell or are they just your top two suspects?

[elvis_knits]

I care nothing for Grey's meta. Let's look at his

behavior.

GreyICE's FAIL D2 votes

1) D2 dawns, GI votes fate yet again:

Vote: Fate

I know you know town from scum, he was town. That vote makes baby jesus cry.

The old "you lynched a townie yesterday so you're scum" BS vote.

---

2)Then changes abruptly to CKD:

Wait.

Would Fate NK Elli? No. Elli is coasting obvtown. Ergo we're suspecting:

The wrong suspects.

Vote: CuriousKarmaDog

Something smells off. Oh yes.

WIFOM speculation on NK, excusing fate from being scum. Reasons that we were looking on the wrong place, so let's vote someone we weren't looking at: CKD. "Let's vote someone who isn't suspicious." GREAT PLAN!

NOTE: This is very different than what GI is saying now -- he's saying that he thought the CKD/Hez fight stunk to high heaven and he just knew it couldn't be town on town. O RLY? No mention of this yesterday.

---

3)CKD wagon falls apart, everyone moves to HEZ, leaving GI alone on CKD, so he moves to Hez. Check out his reasoning here:

Vote: Fate

Why the fuck did I stop doing this?

Vote: HezLucky

Because Fate's bussing again. Obv.

A)Revoting Fate for no reason, against his earlier conclusion that fate was town.
B)Then votes Hez FOR BEING FATE'S BUDDY. This is the stupidest thing ever since GI had already said he thought fate was town, and there was no discernable link between these two players.
C)AGAIN, no mention that he thought the Hez/CKD fight was horrible and scummy and one had to be scum. NO MENTION OF THAT.

---

Conclusion:

None of these votes make sense.

[elvis_knits]

No, Elvis_Knits, pretty sure I said that it was someone the town wasn't really suspecting. Not that CKD is 'not suspicious.'

And why were we not suspecting him? BEcause he wasn't suspicious. If you thought he was, why didn't you say so and why?

You never said why you thought CKD was suspicious, you never said why you thought Hez was suspicious.

'cause you know what? You have, at no point, defended your concept that CKD wasn't scummy day 1.

WEll, I didn't find him or Hez particularly scummy, actually. I thought it was town on town nonsense. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything about you though. I'm saying that YOU did not seem to have any reason that you thought either CKD or Hez were scum. It is your behavior and reasoning that does not make sense.

And I'm not sure why you want me to do a song and a dance number as scum is getting lynched to make myself look town.

I'm not asking you to do that.

P.S. Fate was trolling me as hard as I was trolling him.

Did you think Fate was scum or not?

[elvis_knits]

I may not be the most articulate at times, but I think my basic point should make sense.

I see no good explanation for why your votes were so crappy D2.

I see no response about Fate. Did you think he was scum or not?

Oh but I do see you voted me. That's nice.

[elvis_knits]

You're flailing dude.

I wagoned llamarble yesterday. I think he was the only person I ever voted yesterday. Now he's my scum buddy? Get a clue.

Also, he was the alternate wagon to Hez, so the odds of him being scum went down a lot.

WHY are all your scum suspects very likely town? (I'm thinking of Vezok, llamarble, EPM).

And why are you ignoring the very good reasons they are likely town?

[elvis_knits]

I'm pretty sure DK is on drugs. Like really. Lots.

I'm really afraid that DK would do this is town, but it's so scummy it's making my eyes bleed.

:/

FUCKING DK

[elvis_knits]

These are my general feelings:

OBVTOWN
vezok
evilpacman
tajo
FA
llamarble

Gut town
Amrun
Altilysian

Neutral
Seacore - bad lurkery start, never commented on hez (I really have a hard time getting over this)
CKD - vig or sk
snarky - perhaps just misguided town
DietyKabuto - useless

SCUM
Calcifer inHimshallibe - inhim lurked. calcifer hammered hez (for town cred) without reading the thread, then has lurked.
Lowell - We either lynch him or have CKD vig/sk him (if possible). I'm tired of his bullshit.
Cirno - scummy hammer was fucking scummy. Cirno didn't seem to think GI was scum, even said he felt bad for GI, then hammered him without asking for a claim.
earworm - suspicious actions with hez, continues to vote near-confirmed town

I am pretty sure on the obvtown group, so I would not be up for lynching any of those. Not sure why there is vezok hate. I really don't think I can get on board with that.

I'm going to look at wagons next and see if that changes any of my feelings.

[elvis_knits]

This is all the stuff you said on GI yesterday.

>@everyone...I want your stance on grey...why is he a bad wagon?
Does 'everyone' apply to me, too? Lynching Grey would be interesting. But I don't hang out with no filthy hyenas, so I'm staying here.

>ckd
>are you saying you dont agree with my case against Grey?
Wasn't really commenting on your case. But assuming that 1125 is your case, then yes, I disagree with it.

>do you think he is town? why?
He goes back and forth with me. I don't really care if he is lynched or not, but his lynch would be interesting, information wise.

>What part of my case on GI do you disagree with and why?
All of it. I don't think the deaths of Elli and Fate implicate Grey. I don't see or care about the so-called breadcrumb. I don't think you pushed him against any kind of wall and I don't believe he was avoiding questions because of it.

You guys are making me feel bad for GreyIce and I don't like it.

So, you:
Thought lynching GI would be interesting.
Thought we would get info from lynching GI
Disagreed with CKD's case on GI (hint: how did you think GI was scum while you disagreed with the case on him?)
Felt bad for GI because of what others were doing to him

I just think those are all shit reasons to vote GI, let alone hammer him, let alone hammer without a claim. It does not look to me like you thought he was scum, since you never said you thought he was scum.

"didn't seem to think GI was scum" is just a less obvious "thought GI was town", which I never said. In fact, I said that of the two wagons, GI was my preferred lynch.

Well, I don't see where you said GI was your preferred lynch.

Also, if you didn't say you thought GI was scum, then I assume you didn't think GI was scum. Whether you thought he was town or neutral or some other judgement makes no difference to me. You should not my voting or lynching people you don't think are scum. In fact, saying you thought GI's lynch would be "interesting" and give us "info" is decidedly different that calling GI scum.

Disagreeing with the case against GI, is almost as good as saying you don't think GI is scum, IMO. If you think the case on GI is bad, but you have a different case on him and still think he's scum, you should have said that. Instead, you just disagreed with CKD's case. All of that makes your hammer very suspect.

[elvis_knits]

elvis, why did Snarky place a vote on you?

I think he said I lynched too many townies.

I'm willing to take my fair share of blame for voting townies, because I have. I think every townie who got lynched did things that were very scummy though and it was my best guess at the time. I think if you look at my posts you can see my reasoning and you should be able to see that I am town motivated. I think that the reasoning should be more telling than just the fact that I've lynched townies.

[elvis_knits]

I took a break for a while and haven't been scum since coming back. This is my second game back. My old games I was almost never convincing as scum, and got lynched early and often. At least that's how I felt.

[elvis_knits]

Hmm. I missed that you said that about Grey, it was buried here:

>You are arguing this may be herbivores v carnivores. Is this always the case when it comes to Predator v Prey?
Not sure what you are asking, but as town flips have been antelopes, zebras, and gazelles, I am assuming that anything that preys on those creatures (such as hyenas and lions) are scum.

>Also you thinking someone trying to argue hyena = town is scummy, is your opinion and I don't think that's a good reason to base on alignment
From my understanding,you are saying that arguing that hyena may be town-aligned isn't scummy? Fact is, there is nothing to base such an argument on. In fact, the town flips so far would imply the opposite.

>Does the rest of his play line up with this?
I don't care about his play.

>Also did you support the Hez wagon?
No, I did not. The votes on the wagon all seemed weak to me and I didn't care too much about Hez myself, so I stayed away. For the record, I don't think Hez's flip clears ckd in any way.


As for the current wagons (seacore and grey), I can't seem to form a strong opinion on either.

I think I like the Grey wagon a bit more because the reasoning for some of his votes seem more like excuses rather than reasons.

And because he is voting me. Thought I'd say that before someone else does.

I found that you also said:

>Blah blah town logic at all you'll vote for either wagon right now.
I don't mean to say I will support either wagon, rather that I won't argue against either one and that I favor one over the other.

I don't plan on changing my vote to either wagon (or at all, really).

Now, I'm not claiming that I wanted to lynch GI the whole time. But your implication that I voted GreyIce despite believing he was town is false.

I never said that you believed GI was town. I have no idea. But I didn't see you saying you thought he was scum either. This implies to me that you either:
a)thought he was town
b)thought he was somewhere in the middle of scum and town
c)weren't sure what you thought of his alignment
d)didn't care

So really it could be any of these reasons, but none of those make hammering him something I would expect you to do.

[elvis_knits]

Also, I still want to know about those suspicious actions with hez earworm was supposedly engaged in.

He wanted us to kill CKD instead of Hez. He believed HEz's claim.

1. Do you think CKD is lying about vigging lurkers?
2. What did you think of CKD's reaction?
3. Do you really believe Hezlucky is the cop? If so, why?

1. I'm not sure on this one. Leaning towards no. It fits the kill flavor and the hyena animal. But I don't think that makes him town. In fact, the day vig claim along with the name claim fits very nicely with a SK in my mind.

2. Normal reaction. Null.

3. Yeah, I do. I'm not seeing anything that would lead me to disbelieve his claim. Has he played poorly thus far? yeah. I'm just not seeing this a fakeclaim right now.

[elvis_knits]

I imagine he's trying to catch somebody lying, Cirno.

I can't help but notice you didn't answer his question of whether you targeted Zel last night.

Also, I didn't target Zel last night.

[elvis_knits]

If scum lie and say they didnt target Zel last night, CKD would be able to catch them in the lie without outing the other person. Maybe we need to do a popcorn style type claim?

I PICK CIRNO

Stop stalling.

[elvis_knits]

vote populartajo

Good job, ckd. Prior to this I thought tajo was obvtown, so this is a HUGE catch.

I have to read the last few pages more carefully though because there is a ton of shit going down other than tajo.

[elvis_knits]

Other things that stuck out to me from the last pages:

Seacore - earning town cred.
---->responded to cirno's anti-town antics in a pro-town manner
---->suspected ckd's gambit was a gambit. tajo obv did not, he got caught. odds of seacore being scum buddy with tajo decrease, cause seacore would have warned tajo if they have a QT, which they probably do. Always the chance they don't have a QT or tajo posted without checking it. But still, odds of seacore being tajo's scum buddy decrease.

Vezok - even less likely scumbag
---->tajo has been trying to off him for a few days

Calcifer - looking scummier
---->post 1374 suggests we let ckd vig tajo instead of lynching him = more chance of scum getting another dead town today if we lynch somebody other than tajo
---->voting seacore at this point seems pretty wrong

lowell - needs to die
---->i can't tell if he's scum or so dumb that he is functional scum

[elvis_knits]

I am looking at the wagons and VC's. I have color-coded and drawn some conclusions and speculations. I don't feel that they are terribly definitive, but I have written down my thoughts just for the sake of discussing. Also, I think the VC's will be helpful to everyone regardless of my conclusions and speculations.

RED - confirmed scum

TEAL - Confirmed town

GREEN - MY obvtown, you can disregard if you disagree

snarky (4) -

Llamarble

, earworm,

Ellibereth, ZeL1nK

ZeL1nK

(4) - snarky,

HezLucky

,

silavor

, Amrun
Amrun (1) -

pappums rat/GI

jilynne1991

(1) - Cirno

Ellibereth (1) - jilynne1991

Flavour Analysis

(1) -

Fate

silavor

(1) -

Flavour Analysis

Not Voting (11) - Altilsian, vezokpiraka, inHimshallibe, populartajo, PeregrineV, elvis_knits, Seacore, Lowell, evilpacman18, curiouskarmadog, DietyKabuto

snarky wagon. earworm is the scum on it. Unless snarky is scum.

One of snarky/earworm is likely scum.

*note: snarky wagon revived early today. Might give more info.

Flavour Analysis

(6) - earworm,

vezokpiraka

,

HezLucky

,

elvis_knits

,

Fate

, Amrun
snarky (2) -

Llamarble

,

ZeL1nK

ZeL1nK

(2) - snarky,

silavor

Amrun (1) -

pappums rat/GI

Fate

(1) -

Flavour Analysis

Ellibereth (1) - jilynne1991

HezLucky

(1) -

Ellibereth

elvis_knits

(1) - Cirno
Lowell (1) -

PeregrineV

Not Voting (8) - Altilysian, populartajo, Seacore, Lowell, evilpacman18, DietyKabuto, inHimshallibe, curiouskarmadog

FA wagon. Hez was scum on it. Perhaps a buddy was on it. Earworm and amrun placed far enough away from hez that they're possibles, but I don't feel that there is anything definitive here. Could be more important when taken with other info.

silvaor

(12) -

ZeL1nK

, Seacore,

elvis_knits,

populartajo

, inHimshallibe, snarky, Lowell, Amrun,

vezokpiraka

, DietyKabuto,

Fate

,

evilpacman18

HezLucky

(2) - curiouskarmadog, Altilsian

evilpacman18

(2) -

silavor

, earworm
earworm (2) -

Flavour Analysis,

Ellibereth

Fate (1) - GreyICE

Ellibereth (1) - jilynne1991

elvis_knits

(1) - Cirno

Flavour Analysis

(1) -

HezLucky

Cirno (1) -

Llamarble

Silavor lynch. Tajo scum on it. Seacore looking more town to me lately. DK has been a tajo target, making him less likely scum, IMO. I think there is prob at least one more scum in that meaty middle area of: inhim/calcifer, snarky, lowell, amrun.

Scum off the wagon: I favor earworm, but not sure it's definitive. Altilysian has seemed like a gut town to me, but I am forced to question myself at this point. Cirno seems like a wildcard at this point; maybe scum, maybe not.

curiouskarmadog (4) -

GreyICE,

HezLucky

,

Fate

,

vezokpiraka

Llamarble (4) - elvis_knits

, Seacore, curiouskarmadog, Lowell

HezLucky

(2) -

Flavour Analysis

,

ZeL1nK

evilpacman18

(2) - Amrun, earworm

Fate

(1) - Cirno

elvis_knits

(1) - DietyKabuto

ZeL1nK

(1) - snarky

Not Voting (5) - evilpacman18, populartajo, inHimshallibe, jilynne1991, Llamarble

CKD vs. llamarble wagons

If there's scum on llamarble, I think it's Lowell.

*Sticks in my head that tajo kept saying llamarbe is town because he was the alternate wagon to hez. Tajo could have been saying this because you have ot say some logical/townish stuff as scum or else it becomes obvious you're scum. Tajo could also have been saying this because we actually had two scum wagons going at once (rare but possible).

---

THESE NEXT TWO VC's NEED TO BE LOOKED AT TOGETHER:

HezLucky

(6) -

Flavour Analysis

,

ZeL1nK,

populartajo

,

vezokpiraka,

GreyICE, Fate

Llamarble (4) - elvis_knits

, Seacore, curiouskarmadog, Lowell

Fate

(1) - Cirno
Lowell (1) - earworm
snarky (1) - Amrun
curiouskarmadog (1) -

HezLucky

ZeL1nK

(1) - snarky

Not Voting (6) - evilpacman18, inHimshallibe, jilynne1991, Llamarble, DietyKabuto, Altilysian

HezLucky

(7) -

Flavour Analysis

,

ZeL1nK

,

populartajo

,

vezokpiraka

,

GreyICE, Fate,

DietyKabuto

Llamarble (6) - elvis_knits,

Seacore, curiouskarmadog, Lowell, snarky, Cirno
snarky (2) - Amrun,

evilpacman18

Lowell (1) - earworm
curiouskarmadog (1) -

HezLucky

Not Voting (3) - Llamarble, inHimshallibe, Altilysan

Tajo busses Hez.

I imagine that scum took a scatter approach at this point. They don't all buss Hez because then Hez dies immediately and they hope that he can still get out of this shit by claiming cop etc. So it is VERY interesting who comes over to llamarble at this point: snarky and Cirno.

---

HezLucky

(11) -

Flavour Analysis

,

ZeL1nK

,

populartajo

,

vezokpiraka

,

GreyICE

, DietyKabuto, Altilysian, curiouskarmadog, Amrun,

Fate

, Calcifer
curiouskarmadog (4) -

HezLucky

, earworm, Seacore, Cirno

Llamarble (3) - elvis_knits,

Lowell, snarky
snarky (1) -

evilpacman18

Not Voting (1) - Llamarble

Hez lynch. We likely have another scum on the end of this lynch to buss for town cred. Alt, Amrun, or Calficer. I favor calcifer.

Seacore (6) -

Flavour Analysis

, DietyKabuto,

elvis_knit

s, Calcifer, Altilysian,

evilpacman18

GreyICE

(4) -

ZeL1nK

,

vezokpiraka

, curiouskarmadog, snarky
Cirno (2) -

GreyICE

,

Llamarble

vezokpiraka

(1) -

populartajo

evilpacman1

8 (1) - earworm
curiouskarmadog (1) - Cirno

Llamarble

(1) - Lowell

Not Voting (2) - Seacore, Amrun

Seacore wagon. Prob scum in calcifer or alt.

GreyICE

(8) -

ZeL1nK

,

vezokpiraka

, curiouskarmadog,

elvis_knits,

DietyKabuto,

Llamarble, Flavour Analysis

, snarky
DietyKabuto (4) -

populartajo,

Seacore, Cirno, Amrun
Seacore (2) - Calcifer,

evilpacman18

Amrun (1) - earworm
elvis_knits (1) -

GreyICE

Llamarble

(1) - Lowell

Not Voting (1) - Altilysian

GI lynch. If there's scum, I think it has to be snarky. However, judging from how tajo was like "I hate to say this guys but I think we need to start lynching the GI wagoners today" it's possible that GI was the rare completely town-fueled wagon.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I have had a gut town on Amrun and Alt most of the game, but I am being forced to question everything after seeing how miserable I have failed. I will have to take a closer look at both Amrun and Alt and question them more closely, but I am open looking at them. And I do agree that Amrun fits into a lot of my possible scum groupings.

Calcifer is pretty likely to be scum.
Assuming Tajo flips scum, I think the rest of them are in Amrun/Cirno/Earworm/Calcifer/Lowell.

^^ Very much agree.

Alt is possible too, though does not seem necessarily scummy to me. Snarky is also possible. However, I want to take another look at his early wagon this morning and see if that makes me think scum were starting a wagon on him. Snarky wagon: Amrun, seacore, calcifer. Hmmmm. Wagon is pretty scummy. Snarky is not on my immediate scum list.

[elvis_knits]

Oh fudge, EPM and CIrno were the last on the GI lynch, which I did not note above since I was being lazy and copying from the mod's posted VC's.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I'm really relying on the townslip. I will consider him too, if needed. TBH, I haven't looked at him too much other than that once I decided it was a townslip. I will say I didn't like his quickhammer. Also Cirno's quickhammer. WTF has been up with quickhammer everyday. It's making me paranoid that scum need to be hammerers to get their kill for the night or something uber-crazy like that.

[elvis_knits]

Also, llamarble asked what an incompetent goon was, and I was wondering that too. I'm wondering if there's some lion flavor involved, where only some members can kill (since lions, the lionesses usually hunt, right?). And maybe there really is some bonus for the scum team if they hammer the lynches? I mean, remember calcifer hammered hez out of nowhere too. All three hammers we had were pretty fucked.

I have no idea, and it all seems kinda paranoid to me, but I'm just trying to make sense of the quickhammers and the incompetent goon/lioncub flavor. They might not be related. Just thinking out loud. It can't hurt to have somebody we think is town do the hammering.

[elvis_knits]

I don't know, I just really want to lynch him and I think you're scum so I didn't like the suggestion coming from you. So how about we vig tajo and lynch you? If you like that plan better, I can agree.

[elvis_knits]

How is that a slip, amrun?

They probably do have a QT.

[elvis_knits]

Why do we think confirmed scum tajo is going to do anything pro-town and wait to be vigged so we can try to lynch more scum?

Yeah, it looks like he's playing along now.

What happens if he posts an hour before CKD can vig him? What if he does this repeatedly? I do not want to deal with that shit, waiting around for confirmed scum to cooperate with us. That is such fucking bad news. The only possible reason that tajo would allow that is if we are decided to lynch a townie, then he lets himself get vigged to we can finish the mislynch. If we're going to lynch his buddy then he just posts and fucks it all up.

[elvis_knits]

How is that a slip, amrun?

They probably do have a QT.

Yes, they probably do. But why are you assuming daytalk? There is only one way for you to know that.

How does make you assume EK was implying day talk?

I was assuming daytalk. I just think that's kinda normal. I said we don't know for sure, but I would expect it's a possibility.

[elvis_knits]

I thought most QT's are daytalking. That used to be the trend, is it not anymore? I didn't say it was for sure they have one, but it's a big possibility.

Seacore - earning town cred.
---->responded to cirno's anti-town antics in a pro-town manner
---->suspected ckd's gambit was a gambit. tajo obv did not, he got caught. odds of seacore being scum buddy with tajo decrease, cause seacore would have warned tajo

if they have a QT

, which they probably do. Always the chance they don't have a QT or tajo posted without checking it. But still, odds of seacore being tajo's scum buddy decrease.

[elvis_knits]

I don't want to say "I told you so,"

BUT

I did.

Tajo needs rope.

<3

[elvis_knits]

You were playing really well, IMO.

[elvis_knits]

vote calcifer

We need to keep an eye on hammers from now on.

[elvis_knits]

Atilysian, why vote for me and sapend the whole post talking about Calcifer?

I was wondering that too.

[elvis_knits]

@EK: I hammered another scum, let us talk. Your reason for hammering is... lemons?

(hammering should read "voting me")

I really don't like the way you layed down either hammer. Yesterday I already felt like all the hammers were quick and dodgy, and then you jumped on another one AFTER some of us had been saying we felt that the hammer should be controlled.

[elvis_knits]

Okay. It just seemed like a non-sequiter. Like you voted for one person and then said how you think somebody else is scummy. But your explanation makes sense.

[elvis_knits]

Hm, I didn't actually check her original reasoning.

[elvis_knits]

Hm, I didn't actually check her original reasoning.

Hmm... who do you think is scum?

What do you think about the few who want you lynched?

Calcifer
Cirno
EPM/Charlie

I think the only people who want me lynched are Cirno and Amrun. Cirno: see above. Amrun: I'm still not hating her, but I haven't look terribly closely. I prob should since she's getting votes. But I really think we should lynch Calcifer. If he's scum than we know I am onto something about the terribad hammers this game, and we continue to lynch down that list.

[elvis_knits]

So glad you replaced in, Charlie. [/sarcasm]

[elvis_knits]

Right now I only really trust Elvis Altil & CKD. I need to go find some more towns.

I think I want Vezok daykilled.
Elvis he's scum yes?

I thought tajo tried to get wagons started on Vezok two days in a row or something. Which makes me think Vezok is likely town. I'll go check the facts on that though, because I'm just going off memory.

[elvis_knits]

D3:

vote vezok

I isolated both seacore and vezok.

Can everyone, specially those voting seacore, tell me why are you prefering seacore to vezok?

I isolated both seacore and vezok.

Can everyone, specially those voting seacore, tell me why are you prefering seacore to vezok?

Tajo, how do you feel about Vezok's early antelope claim?

after some analysis I dont think vezokscum has the skills to try this kind of gambits, so Im going with town.

Back to the drawing board since this means ice is prob scum.

D4:

everybody dispersing votes makes me sad and about to RAGE

ok lets make this clear because IM PRETTY SURE I HAVE SAID THIS BEFORE.

Lllamarble is very likely town. When Hezcum was lynched, the another wagon was on Llamarble. Yes, its not impossible we had two scum wagons on day 2. But seriously, with how things have gone so far, do you sincerely believe this? with the nks so far, are scum really that bad that they couldnt make a case on town in day 2?

with that said

I'm back.
Llamarble is scummiest as shit.
I'll trust GI reads.

vote llamarble

Vote vezokpiraka

snarky, seacore why not vezok?

[elvis_knits]

I don't think tajo would buss vezok in this manner.

I could be wrong. OBV I was wrong when I thought tajo would not have bussed Hez like he did, so tell me if you disagree here. But it just seemes like Tajo wanted Vezok dead when neither tajo or vezok had heat on them, which makes me think it's prob not a buss.

[elvis_knits]

BLEH. I don't have much time right now, hopefully will get something together tomorrow.

I have a general feeling that I need to do a little rethinking. I still think there is scum in the hammerers, but maybe there's no huge conspiracy with all the hammerers being scum together. I still think there is scum in that group, but maybe not all of them.

In the meantime, I want Charlie to read the game and give thoughts on all the living players.

[elvis_knits]

Well, that's a start. How about this, Charlie, read like the last ten pages or something, give reads off that. I need something to go off on you, to see what your thought process is, and where you see the players. I don't actually care if you read 67 pages cause that's like a lot, but I would like to get you participating and keeping up with the game.

More later...

[elvis_knits]

I think Lowell should be vigged if possible. He has hardly participated in this game, making him difficult to read. He falls under the category of being too dangerous to have around, and personally have a pet peeve of losing to lurker scum, so I want to avoid that at all costs.

As for top two, still thinking about it as I go about my Sunday and clean up my house. I have to ISO Amrun and come to a better conclusion on her and/or think of some things to ask her and discuss with her. I also am thinking I want more Seacore action. He was not active early in the game, then was active and made me feel he was town, but I haven't heard from him in a bit and want more Seacore.

[elvis_knits]

Well, before I actually do work on you...

I could iso you or I could ask you to explain why you're so convinced Snarky is scum. I don't get that feel from him, so I wonder your reasons.

[elvis_knits]

I have several reasons. I do need to put together a case on him, but really that will just be shine.

Overall, Snarky has displayed rolefishing, buddying to town to try and get out of a lynch, opportunism, and the big thing for me is when he displayed a guilty conscience about Ellibereth's death. That was basically admitting that he killed Elli, to me, but only Seacore seemed to pay attention to this besides me.

You don't need to quote stuff for me here, just looking for general responses:

I remember the rolefishing (I thought it had some promise at the time but was very early). Feel "meh" about it now.

When/who was the buddying and opportunism?

I remember the weirdness with Ellibereth's death and how he said Zelink killed Elli to try to frame him. I agree that was really weird, but I struggle to find a scum motivation for that. I mean, nobody was even trying to blame him for the NK, so he just ended up drawing more attention to himself. Do you think he just felt so guilty for killing Elli that he felt the need to go "I didn't kill Elli!" out of nowhere? I kind of put the whole episode down to paranoia and tunneling on Zelink (because snarky and zelink were goin after each other for a while).

What do you think of Snarky's play the last few days (more recent play)?

[elvis_knits]

Also,

vote lowell

Contribute or die.

[elvis_knits]

Oh lowell. The lurker who shows up immediately upon getting pressure, showing he's been monitoring the thread but not helping.

Why do you want amrun dead?

[elvis_knits]

Hmm.

I think the GreyIce quickhammer was the worst thing Cirno has done, after his ambivalence toward GreyIce's scumminess.

[elvis_knits]

And that is pretty much all I'm going to say in my defense.

Does that mean you will not be talking to me about your scummy GreyIce hammer?

[elvis_knits]

Fine. Let's do this again. I think I can explain better and more concisely this time so people will see how scummy it is.

>@everyone...I want your stance on grey...why is he a bad wagon?
Does 'everyone' apply to me, too? Lynching Grey would be interesting. But I don't hang out with no filthy hyenas, so I'm staying here.

GreyIce lynch would be interesting, not "GreyIce is scummy."
No comment on his allignment.
Purposely evasive.
Ambivalent.
Leaves you open to voting him later if needed.

>ckd
>are you saying you dont agree with my case against Grey?
Wasn't really commenting on your case. But assuming that 1125 is your case, then yes, I disagree with it.

>do you think he is town? why?
He goes back and forth with me. I don't really care if he is lynched or not, but his lynch would be interesting, information wise.

Disagrees with CKD's case on Grey = soft support of Grey.
When pressed to say if you think Grey is town, the answer is: who knows, and I don't care if he is lynched. DON'T CARE?

You guys are making me feel bad for GreyIce and I don't like it.

Soft support of Grey. Not something I would expect you to say before you vote him.

I think I like the Grey wagon a bit more because the reasoning for some of his votes seem more like excuses rather than reasons. And because he is voting me. Thought I'd say that before someone else does.

Very wishy-washy and admittedly a self-preservation dislike of Grey because he thought you were scum.

THEN, OUT OF NOWHERE:

>Dragging on the day by continuing to argue and asking for his claim

Nope.

VOTE: GreyIce

What was wrong with asking him for a claim? Why did you pounce on a lynch you were, at best, ambivalent about?

I think this is better than a lurker lynch.

unvote Lowell

VOTE: Cirno

[elvis_knits]

Gonna repeat that disagreeing with a case does not mean you support the target of the case. Not gonna bother arguing the rest.

Disagreeing with a case throws doubt on the case and throws doubt on the subject's scumminess. It is a soft support of the subject. If you disagree with the case but still think the person is scum, I expect you to present a different case.

Again, why didn't you want to wait for a claim from GreyIce?

[elvis_knits]

Did you do your ten pages of homework yet, Charlie?

[elvis_knits]

Disagreeing with a case throws doubt on the case and throws doubt on the subject's scumminess. It is a soft support of the subject. If you disagree with the case but still think the person is scum, I expect you to present a different case.

Your argument seems to be that by disagreeing with CKD's case, even if it is a bad case, I am undermining the wagon. Therefore, as town, I should build my own case against CKD to show support of the wagon. To do otherwise is scummy. I disagree. This is only scummy if you have a reasonable expectation of me, as Town, to build a case in that situation. You don't, for a couple reasons. Firstly, I stated that I didn't care if GI was lynched, which should have indicated to you that I would not go out of my way to get him lynched. Secondly, it was clear that I wanted to lynch someone else, which removes all impetus for me to build a case against GI.

I didn't wait until GreyIce claimed because I didn't care. Not just about his claim, but about the game in general. I was in "fuck it" mode once I started posting Ainsley pictures.

This is simple, dude.

If you think CKD's case sucks, but GI is scum for different reason... say that. You don't have to build me a powerpoint presentation. You could say it in one sentence. "I think CKD's case on GI sucks, but I still think GI might be scum."

Did you do anything like that?

No.

You just said CKD's case sucks.

Which undermines the GI wagon.

The other point is: you should not have been voting/hammering/lynching a person you were so ambivalent about.

If you didn't care if GI was lynched, why lynch him?

If you didn't care about the game, why even participate? Just to be a pain in the behind and fuck with the game that the rest of us are putting time into to try to win?

WTF

None of that is the mindset of a town-sided player, and I don't believe you are one.

[elvis_knits]

Sorry I was away yesterday for work. Will get caught up today.

[elvis_knits]

I'm not even caught up and I support that hammer. FAKE FUCKING CLAIM.

[elvis_knits]

Amrun
Lowell

[elvis_knits]

Also, have you read any of the game yet? Have you at least been paying attention since replacing in?

[elvis_knits]

I have. I read all the newer posts since I've replaced in and frankly, my very limited suspect list is also Amrun and Lowell. No joke, I remember I wrote that in-thread.

That is good that we're thinking similarly. I think I had a paranoid neurotic breakdown when I was on my OHNO quickhammer binge. I'm relying on my early feeling that the way EPM claimed was a townslip and you (as his replacement) are confirmed town to me. Vezok is also confirmed town to me.

[elvis_knits]

Crap, I forgot about snarky completely. God damn there's just too many people I want to lynch for this stage of the game.

What do you dislike about snarky?

Another small theory RE calcifer. Calcifer was potentially going to be pushed into accepting a Day Vig from ckd. So calcifer first made an unreasonable request to put it off for a day, and then CKD finally dies, despite openly being a tool for the town for days.

The thing about CKD was that we were probably going to lynch him before endgame. So why would scum kill him now when we have confirmed townies.

I don't like calcifer, but I feel like your above speculation is a lot of WIFOM.

I feel like it would make more sense if scum killed CKD because we were increasingly referring to him as vig and people were being less and less suspicious of him. I would like to look back at comments on CKD and see who (if anyone) tested the waters to see if there was still suspicions on CKD. I feel like maybe Alt did this.

It's still sort of WIFOM-ish though I guess.

[elvis_knits]

Okay, there is something I have been thinking about.

I think we should do a MASS CLAIM ASAP.

In your next post, please say if you agree or disagree.

I'd like scummier people to go first, obv. Or maybe popcorn.

The only thing I think is really, really important is that:

NOBODY COMMENTS ON THE VALIDITY OF CLAIMS UNTIL EVERYONE HAS GONE.

I think we have to do this, and do this now.

[elvis_knits]

I want Amrun first too.

[elvis_knits]

Mass claim is retarded.

Seriously.

Derp.

Not doing it, not going first, because the set up is pretty obv so we gain nothing out of it.

Why are you so sure we would gain nothing out of it?

AND HOW COULD IT HAVE POSSIBLY HURT??

HMMM??

WHY REFUSE TO PARTICIPATE?

All town members are vt.

Hey Amrun,

This is the scummiest thing I've seen in a long time.

WHY DID YOU SAY THIS AND BLOW ANY SHOT OF CATCHING SCUM FAKE CLAIMING?

I have wondered if it was a mountainous game for a while, but CKD being a possible vig was fucking with that. Now that CKD is dead SK, I was pretty sure it was mountainous and was suggesting a massclaim to see if scum would fake claim a power role and then be caught. You know, like Hez and Tajo both fakeclaimed and hadn't realized it was mountainous.

THANKS FOR TRYING TO RUIN MY TRAP TO CATCH SCUM.

However, it did catch one scum: YOU.

It is obvious that Amrun ruined my plan because there is still another scum besides her out there who she feared would be caught in my little trap and try to claim a PR. Otherwise why out my trap?

She just threw herself under the bus to protect a scum buddy since she was already under fire.

VOTE: Amrun

[elvis_knits]

GUYS

Amrun needs rope.

When somebody proposes a plan that has even half a chance of catching scum (and zero chance of hurting the town), you go along with it unless you're scum.

Mass claim could not have hurt the town. All it could have done was catch a stupid scum fake claiming a PR. If it didn't catch anybody, oh well, nothing lost. There was no reason not to do it.

AMRUN PEED ALL OVER MY SCUM TRAP.

She is scum. She needs rope. Kill her now, infinity, etc.

[elvis_knits]

Ek needs to explain a town read on snarky fast

All I see is you going after Snarky everyday with very little and weak reasons, which has made me increasingly suspicious of you. I feel like Snarky somehow became the scum whipping boy and easy target and whenever you are in trouble you default to vote snarky lolwagon.

This is the best I got out of you so far about snarky:

Overall, Snarky has displayed rolefishing, buddying to town to try and get out of a lynch, opportunism, and the big thing for me is when he displayed a guilty conscience about Ellibereth's death. That was basically admitting that he killed Elli, to me, but only Seacore seemed to pay attention to this besides me.

The rolefishing was forever ago and seems pretty weak to me at this point. The buddying, meh. Opportunism, meh. You'd have to show me what these were and why they were so bad. And I just think the Ellibereth thing was WTF, and maybe part of his fixation with zelink.

Overall, I just don't see your case, and I feel like you've been pushing this crappy case for days, and I think it's scummy to keep doing it without explaining yourself better or having better reasoning. I also think it's obvious you're scum now that you peed on my scumtrap, further cementing my feelings on your crappy snarky case.

[elvis_knits]

Looking over the live list, I don't have a town read on anybody. Maybe, grudgingly, Vezok.

It's not to say that I find everybody equally scummy or lynch worthy, but I wouldn't be surprised if anybody flips scum. Ugh.

Let's not get paranoid.

Vezok and Charlie/EPM are as good as confirmed town.

I tend to think you might be right about the Calcifer killed CKD stuff, but it's still a bit too WIFOMish for me. I do lean more toward you being right because I think scum eliminate their threats first and foremost, and CKD was mostly a threat to Calcifer and maybe lowell. Still, it's too WIFOM for me.

However, Calcifer calling Amrun town is pretty bad, IMO.

[elvis_knits]

HOLY SHIT amrun, stop putting words in my mouth.

I never said Snarky is town. I never "protected snarky intensely," and I never said that you should abandon scum reads to lynch shinier things.

1)I'm not sure Snarky is town. All I know is that you keep pushing a wagon on him with no case, which is pretty fucking scummy. So my natural reaction is to feel like you are scummy and he is less so since you're a scummy player trying to bury him.

2)I'm not "protecting snarky intensely," I am calling YOU on not having a case on him, and asking you to explain yourself or stop trying to lynch him without a case.

3)I never said you, or anyone, should abandon scumreads. I think you should have a case and show it to us if you have a scum read. Otherwise it just looks like you're making shit up and I have to assume you're scum.

There are few things I find more annoying than popcorn massclaims that only benefit scum.

I have never heard of popcorn massclaims as benefiting scum. How could this one have benefited scum?

[elvis_knits]

Altilysian, can I get you to post reads on players. It need not be detailed or anything, just general feeling on where you see people.

[elvis_knits]

Look, I lean town on him, but I'm not sure. This is not about what I think of Snarky, this is about how you keep voting him every day and me not understanding why, thinking what you have said about him is weak. If you feel like you've detailed your case thoroughly, then I guess I just don't see it as very strong or convincing.

And why are we switching the subject off you ruining a perfectly good massclaim that could have caught scum? If it was as obvious and stupid as you say, then it wouldn't have caught scum, but wouldn't have hurt us at all to try it.

You didn't answer how a massclaim would have

benefited

scum. Please explain.

[elvis_knits]

When somebody proposes a plan that has even half a chance of catching scum (and zero chance of hurting the town), you go along with it unless you're scum.

This is the same reasoning that "pegged" Cirno as scum. How is Amrun different?

Cirno was acting like scum. He even fake claimed. I guess he was just being a pain in the arse and fucking with the game.

If you're town, don't deliberately act like scum. If you do, I can't be blamed for thinking you're scum.

So there's no real difference between Cirno and Amrun, they're both acting like scum.

[elvis_knits]

However, Calcifer calling Amrun town is pretty bad, IMO.

This is a good sign that you're tunneling too hard.

Tunneling on who?

I've given Amrun like a million chances, tried to withhold judgement on her when other people called her scummy, and now have voted her for the first time because of a very scummy action she has made.

Not sure how that's tuneling.

[elvis_knits]

Scum, having been burned twice by fakeclaims, surely know by now that it's futile - at least in a popcorn situation. But town might get lolgambit ideas from ctd and then we'd lynch them for nothing.

Snarky gets more opportunistic as you fencesit some more, ek.

The same page that I asked for a massclaim you had seacore refusing to claim for Charlie. Obviously not everyone was sure it was mountainous. It was not common knowledge, evidence to that fact was on the same page.