Lemming Mafia - Mini 1196

[Jedo the Jedi]

/confirm

[Jedo the Jedi]

Well, this thread has exploded since its start.

Mod: If town lightning lynches before everyone has picked, do the remaining people still get to pick or are they just SOL?

I really see Peregrine's stuff as impatience as well, and extensive talk about game mechanics is always dull to me. The mod designed the game to eliminate exploitation, so why would we find a loophole?

[Jedo the Jedi]

Yeah, ani is strange, but this feels normal from what I remember. I'm not sure I'll be following right now.

The answer to my question has piqued my curiosity about just how the mod has balanced this game. With such random elements, how can he control the balance? Anyway, I recognize this is not an attempt to break the game or some such, Chuji, but rather a strategy to guide our play. I just am not overly concerned with it right now. I've been in too many games where the town gets bogged down with that sort of thing, and either the day drags or they get in a rut which benefits the scum. I guess you could say my philosophy is to shoot first and ask questions later. I'd rather get through the first day and have a lynch (not too quickly, though, since we will need discussion for analysis) so we can have some concrete information. In this case, such information will be two-fold since we will know some of the missions.

That said,

vote forest

[Jedo the Jedi]

My trouble with Taz's behavior is that I've been that way before as scum and town. Not knowing where to go, but definitely wanting to contribute. My thought is really that Peregrine and Taz could both be prime scumspects, but I've seen those actions as town too. I would need something else to truly peg one of them as scummy.

I will agree that Peregrine's play is anti-town at least. Start participating and contributing.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Peregrine, your play has been anti-town to this point for the same reasons it would be anti-town in any other game: you aren't really discussing the game with us, and you are refusing to give legitimate votes (the kind with reasons why you suspect so-and-so) which deprives town of the information of interactions between players. That has nothing to do with this particular game or some special "role-selection" mechanic.

I don't like you coming back in here and asking those questions of mike when you are the one accused of not participating. I think it would be better if you answered those questions yourself.

[Jedo the Jedi]

@CMAR- If you mean me, not sure what response you want. I like activity, I like reads. Do I agree with yours? Probably not.
For example- Why is Jedo very protown?
Post 80- mod question and ""I really see Peregrine's stuff as impatience as well,"
Post 95-Votes forest for no reason given.
(Perhaps it was the same reason I did, becuase they were up next to vote.)
Post 120- "My thought is really that Peregrine and Taz could both be prime scumspects","I will agree that Peregrine's play is anti-town at least"
Post 145- Chews me out more.
"Peregrine, your play has been anti-town to this point for the same reasons it would be anti-town in any other game: you aren't really discussing the game with us, and you are refusing to give legitimate votes (the kind with reasons why you suspect so-and-so) which deprives town of the information of interactions between players. That has nothing to do with this particular game or some special "role-selection" mechanic.

I don't like you coming back in here and asking those questions of mike when you are the one accused of not participating. I think it would be better if you answered those questions yourself."

So why the Forest vote?

Why were my reads a "sign of impatience", then "scumpect", then "anti-town", then "you aren't really discussing the game with us", then "

I don't like you coming back in here and asking those questions

of mike when

you are the one accused of not participating

."
(So I'm accused of not participating, but I shouldn't be asking questions? Very protown? C'mon now....)

Why the Forest vote?

Really, dude? You can't read better than that?

Post 80 - Weighing in on your actions. That's how I saw constant voting for the next mission picker. Other people were trying to make it out to be scummy. I thought that to be overzealous.

Yeah, ani is strange, but this feels normal from what I remember. I'm not sure I'll be following right now.

The answer to my question has piqued my curiosity about just how the mod has balanced this game. With such random elements, how can he control the balance? Anyway, I recognize this is not an attempt to break the game or some such, Chuji, but rather a strategy to guide our play. I just am not overly concerned with it right now.

I've been in too many games where the town gets bogged down with that sort of thing, and either the day drags or they get in a rut which benefits the scum. I guess you could say my philosophy is to shoot first and ask questions later. I'd rather get through the first day and have a lynch (not too quickly, though, since we will need discussion for analysis) so we can have some concrete information. In this case, such information will be two-fold since we will know some of the missions.

That said

, vote forest

You can't read the italics, then the bolded words, and come to the conclusion of why I'm voting him?

My trouble with Taz's behavior is that I've been that way before as scum and town.

Not knowing where to go, but definitely wanting to contribute. My thought is really that Peregrine and Taz could both be prime scumspects,

but I've seen those actions as town too. I would need something else to truly peg one of them as scummy.

I will agree that Peregrine's play is anti-town at least. Start participating and contributing.

Again, you couldn't understand the one statement you took out of there in light of the italicized and bolded portion? Serious misrep, dude. Both of the above two quotes were in response to others who had notions about voting and who is scum. This statement of mine does not negate the previous one in which I said you simply seem impatient. In fact, it concedes that your actions could indeed signify you being scum (as some believe) because it is a perfect place for scum to appear as town, but I don't really agree with it because I've actually seen town act like that too.

Post 145 - Yes, I clearly "chewed you out." Let's examine:

I will agree that Peregrine's play is anti-town at least. Start participating and contributing.

Since I've never played with a "role selection" mechanic, you'll understand if I insist you go into deep detail about how my play is anti-town.

Peregrine, your play has been anti-town to this point for the same reasons it would be anti-town in any other game: you aren't really discussing the game with us, and you are refusing to give legitimate votes (the kind with reasons why you suspect so-and-so) which deprives town of the information of interactions between players. That has nothing to do with this particular game or some special "role-selection" mechanic.

I don't like you coming back in here and asking those questions of mike when you are the one accused of not participating. I think it would be better if you answered those questions yourself.

Oh, that's right. You gave a half-ass, side-step excuse of a response in order to appear to be participating. I gave you the details like you asked, and countered the flimsy excuse you were hiding behind. (What does a "role selection" mechanic have to do with your lack of participation and contribution?) Then I again expressed I how I felt about your post. The thing I don't like about you asking those questions is that, again, it makes you appear to be doing something, when you actually aren't doing anything at all.

So how could I "progress" like that? Well, it isn't really progress, as I think I've demonstrated. Up to this point, I've had about the same opinion of you. Now, THIS is progress: After looking back over your posts and the way you've interacted (and especially this misrep thing against me all to try and disprove CMAR's--that's one player--opinion of me), I think you could very well be scum. Considering that you keep asking more questions of mikemike, I think you could even be trying to distance from a buddy. I guess only time will tell.

unvote, vote PeregrineV

And you still haven't answered those questions yourself. I'll re-post them here for your convenience.

[Jedo the Jedi]

@Jedo, why did you vote for forest.

Straight up, it's because I am a day 1 bandwagon type person. He had the most votes at the time aside from you and Peregrine, and I didn't really think of either of you as scummy. I've moved on to more intentional/directed voting now.

[Jedo the Jedi]

And you still haven't answered those questions yourself. I'll re-post them here for your convenience.

OK, please do.

Oh my God. Talk about belligerent. I'll add evasion to my list of why I think you are scum.

What do you think of the current cases? Are they any good? Does it feel like people have hit the mafia mother lode?

[Jedo the Jedi]

I was belligerent by saying please?

No. It was by not just answering the questions to which you knew I was referring.

That second part is poor. Trying to reverse that statement on me is ineffective because, of anybody, I know what you are doing and believe it to be neutral as far as scumminess (though not helpful to the town when we want to analyze vote patterns later). You could have answered that first question more descriptively than by giving a black-and-white answer.

What are the merits of the cases?

Surely they aren't just 100% fallacious/subjective/wrong.

If your going to Random vote for Random vote reasons, fine. Even weak ones, fine. But don't vote saying your case is good, and then try and back it up. That's not only scummy, but very anti-town.

Where did I say my case is good and try backing it up? I only countered the notion that I had no reason for my vote. I had a reason.

Here's why you're making too much of my being a defender of Peregrine: All I am essentially saying is that I would say "no" to the following question if it were posed to me: Do you really think Peregrine is going to goof around for the rest of the game? You and Jedo are voting like you do believe this is so. The fact is, Peregrine would not survive if he did this, and we don't need you two to make sure this fact does not lose it's factness.

How do you get that from my vote? Read the previous part of this post again, and you will see that has nothing to do with why I'm voting him. I'm voting him for other reasons. Please don't misrep me like that.

Aside from Peregrine, I'm going to try clearing up this stuff between you and Chuji. I believe Chuji's point is that whether it was big or small, there was something which prompted ani to change his vote. Can you say what that is? Clearly not because you think his vote is unwarranted. When people evaluate others for their scumminess, there is much more to it than just the words spoken. It has to do with the perceived tone, language used, rate of posting, where the other people's attention is focused, etc. There must have been something else in that response which ani believed warranted that vote. You may not think it was worth the vote change, but it appears ani does.

[Jedo the Jedi]

My first two choices actually survived until the last three people.

Choose: Cliff Diving

[Jedo the Jedi]

I was belligerent by saying please?

No. It was by not just answering the questions to which you knew I was referring.

Just to clear it up here, if I knew what questions you were referring to, I would have answered them. Since I did not, and you offered to repeat them, I asked you to. Sorry if you feel like I was purposefully obtuse.

I'll concede the point, but I have trouble believing you couldn't remember (or look up) the very questions

you

asked.

That second part is poor. Trying to reverse that statement on me is ineffective because, of anybody, I know what you are doing and believe it to be neutral as far as scumminess (though not helpful to the town when we want to analyze vote patterns later). You could have answered that first question more descriptively than by giving a black-and-white answer.

What are the merits of the cases?

Surely they aren't just 100% fallacious/subjective/wrong.

You don't think so? If I said every game I played in scum had 3 syllables in their name and voted someone for that reason, that would be a good argument? What if I posted links to 5 games in which it was true, would that be a good argument?
I will read opinion cases and even consider what is said, but don't expect me to take them seriously.

This response is perplexing. First, you still haven't deigned to respond outside of black-and-white. Generally speaking, things are not 100% good or 100% bad. Often there is a good point or two in a bad case, or vice versa. If you are being properly critical, you're likely to find that. I don't understand what those examples of yours signify.

Also, I'm not sure they have all been opinion cases. (Taz's almost definitely, but not the others.) Beside that, what would you take seriously? Most of this game is drawing inferences and interpreting people's responses. That lends itself to being based on opinion. In fact, the very reason we will have multiple lynch candidates is because people see different things and disagree on what is truly scummy. So, I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for in a case other than some night results, but that's not likely to happen any time soon. Considering all this, I do expect you to take the cases seriously, to be critical of them to sift out the trash from the gold, and to discuss their merit with the rest of the town.

Anyway, a few of Peregrine's recent responses have caused me to consider him less scummy. I'll

unvote

for now.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I wonder why Taz is so jumpy and concerned about the votes on him. Seriously, you don't think the rest of us are capable of noticing why you have the most votes? This reaction stands out as slightly scummy to me, but I recognize that it could also be just anxious town. Let's just say you aren't doing yourself any favors with this posting style, Taz.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Mod: I unvoted quite a while ago.

Fixed!

[Jedo the Jedi]

That has convinced me to return to my

vote PeregrineV

. When I said earlier he had some town posts causing me to reconsider, they felt like a very abrupt change about which I was wary. This gives me confidence in that vote again.

[Jedo the Jedi]

@Everyone- still learning the terminology. What is the "chainsaw defense?"

Who mentioned chainsaw defense?

I think it would be obvious. But maybe not. So, do you think it's scummy?

This is evasion. It is clearly not obvious because he's bringing it up again, and you still won't post why you think ani is scummy. I read ani in ISO and did not think him scummy at all. Clearly neither did PF since he just said what he thinks of ani. (That would be in the section of his post you didn't copy because it would have countered that whole bit where you try to demonstrate rhetorically that PF does indeed think ani scum.)

Or, he was on the list, but posting scummy also. So I said that.

Why would you go to all that trouble to produce an ISO post "clearly demonstrating" the person's scumminess if you didn't actually think him to be scummy enough to abandon your voting regimen?

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'm here. There was an unexpected lack of internet access over my extended holiday. Will catch up and post tomorrow, though I doubt my opinion will have changed.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Opinion definitely has not changed.

(I'm posting from my iTouch, so I can't really quote easily.)

@PeregrineV - Asking about chainsaw defense when nobody has mentioned it is suggestive. It suggests you believe somebody is doing that (my guess is CK). I'm fairly confident you know that and were being rhetorical. In fact, I think you are pretty intelligent across the board and are using rhetoric to side-step a lot of things. Either that or you are ESL and don't understand what people are saying causing you to miss the point of many people's posts. Half the time, I feel like you are trying to converse on a completely different level from the rest of us. Plus, I see a lot of sarcasm in your posts which doesn't help your case.

I don't really like jilynne's first post. It's a really defensive beginning. That isn't an automatic scum read because I've been that townie before, but I'm watching that slot.

mikemike has said some things which caught my attention. This day has floundered like nobody's business, so putting PeregrineV at L-2 is in fact a reasonable thing to do. I'm not sure why you think it isn't reasonable. I'll ISO mikemike next time I'm on.

[Jedo the Jedi]

@Taz - This whole thing is seriously putting the cart before the horse. We have zero information, so we can't draw inferences about whether this is a mislynch, especially not based on meta reasons. I think Peregrine is scum, and I also think he will be good for relationship analysis tomorrow. He needs to be the lynch at this point. If he turns out to be a mislynch, it will at least be useful.

I don't remember if I gave my analysis of mikemike, but he reads null to me. I don't really like the way he scumhunts (it feels somewhat weak and nonchalant, if that makes sense), but that doesn't make him scum. I think he's one of those I could get a better read on with a Peregrine lynch.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Khan has :goodposting:. Of course, jilynn is 13, so that explains a lot. I remember those days.

It's defensive in that you are already giving excuses for certain behavioral things. That means you are planning for people to view you as scum, which probably signifies a guilty conscience. It's mostly null, but I don't like it.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I, OTOH, see it as a warning to all players that I will more than likely be placing a vote on you to help encourage your speedy role selection. And it also entails a re-read of your play to-date to see if there is anything I would find suspicious.

Who in their right mind is going to worry about a vote like that? That's an even more ridiculous reason than what it seemed before! And what is this last part you've suddenly added on? The answer to that question really doesn't matter because the one person you commented on as being suspicious (ani) didn't keep your vote for longer than it took him to pick his mission. Next.

I don't care how it's interpreted, since I gave a reason every time.

The same sucky reason multiple times means I have to read the same nonsense again.

I gave thoughts with each vote, and had multiple conversations with almost every player. So, not sure what your sentence (..."doesn't require you to betray your thoughts.") means.

Again, it's pretty much the same stuff over and over. Now, I'll concede the conversations bit, but that doesn't really clear you in any way. In some sense, you could be forcing conversation to appear town. (That's definitely how I see some of the questioning you have done.) Go look up Auroros Vox (if you haven't played with him). That dude has now fooled a few town's with his scum play because he looks very townie in his conversations.

Just so I understand you, this post,

:FoS: Mikemike
Never made a Random vote to start the day. Why is that?

where I ask Mike a question, is, to your eyes, a "weird baseless attack on Mike" that "was both hypocritical and retaliatory"?
I disagree. It was an FoS and a question to get activity going.

Here's the thing: it's like that question about the chainsaw defense. The questions you ask are often pointed and insinuating things. You are asking questions which aren't really to obtain an answer, but rather to elicit a certain thought in others when they read it. It's mostly just rhetoric, like a lawyer who asks certain questions of the witness to plant certain ideas in the minds of the jurors; and the rule about asking questions as a lawyer is don't ask a question to which you don't already know the answer. That's what I feel like you are doing.

I'm down with Shadow's #442. His response to the queue thing echoes my own thoughts. I am generally opposed to listing reads like that. I know the town needs information and can only get that through discussion, but just throwing your cards down on the table let's scum predict the town better and therefore steer them more effectively. They can easily cast WIFOM confusion by killing people in a certain order because they know the town will jump all over those lists and mine them for who the scum are. I don't mind giving an impression here and there about people, but I'm not going to line it up to make it easier for scum.

If you want to know what I think, read my posts. I've said why I think you are scum. I've shared what I think about a few other players. If that's not enough for you, then too bad.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Yeah, I'm gonna cut out such ugly looking multiposting.

Then please do. One of the biggest fools is the one who recognizes his folly but doesn't correct it.

[Jedo the Jedi]

My point is that it seems like some sort of coordinated effort to come in and pick up agruing with me from wherever the last guy left off. It's very annoying, and raises my suspicion of everyone doing it.

For my part, I just like to call out bullshit when I see it. It's really hard to turn an entire town around if at once they've bought into crap. Also, do you really believe three scum would work like that to eliminate one townie? Lawyering again, by the way.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Well, that's some good news considering our town lynch yesterday.

What did we decide was best as far as discussing the mission powers? On the one hand, I would prefer scum not to have more information than they already do, but I also don't want town to get all the useless missions.

Another thought which occurs to me: I don't like that other people will know what I will be getting. That could be pretty good information for the scum. Is there something we can do with regard to this? Should maybe the same people get those missions?

[Jedo the Jedi]

To carry my thought further: if scum pick up an investigation role which someone else has already chosen, they will know that person can either clear a townie or peg a scum, so they will kill them. That means the information may die with them. In some sense then, I think it might be prudent to reveal information like this so it doesn't die with a person.

It's tricky to think about this because there is no fear of a role being eliminated per se if someone gives information. Once the person has said it, there's no benefit for the scum to kill them. The scum will have to kill based on missions picked up to eliminate town information. Does that make sense? How does this change our play?

[Jedo the Jedi]

To carry my thought further: if scum pick up an investigation role which someone else has already chosen, they will know that person can either clear a townie or peg a scum, so they will kill them. That means the information may die with them. In some sense then, I think it might be prudent to reveal information like this so it doesn't die with a person.

It's tricky to think about this because there is no fear of a role being eliminated per se if someone gives information. Once the person has said it, there's no benefit for the scum to kill them. The scum will have to kill based on missions picked up to eliminate town information. Does that make sense? How does this change our play?

I'm not following. Do you mean scum d1 picked up investigative role, then d2 town picks the role up that scum had the previous day, and then scum kill them in the night to prevent and outting of info? Immediate suspicion would be on the scum player who hose that d1 don't you think?

I was actually suggesting the reverse, but I see your point. Hmmm...

[Jedo the Jedi]

I think I'm still a fan of everybody picking the same roles as much as possible, as long as the knowledge of the powers is kept quiet. At least then the game becomes more like a regular game of mafia, and I really think it limits scum's utilization and information of the missions. Of course, there have been at least three outed now, so I'm not sure how much good this does.

This whole business about the RB and masons is strange. I see where Mew is coming from, but you have to at least think there could be other possibilities first. I say sit back and watch next time to wait for a contradiction, then spring the trap. So much for that though. My other problem though is mike's catch: why didn't Mew pick one of his actual top suspects? I know sometimes as a PR I will intentionally stay away from top town/scum picks because it might be too predictable (so many times I've been burned with scum killing my target), but I usually have a pretty good reason for who I choose. Chuji would definitely not have been on my list for a RB. I'll wait for a reply to decide how I will stand with regard to Mew.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I don't know why you are having such trouble with this, Taz. Scum as a group will have a night kill on top of whatever missions they choose. Except in games with strange mechanics, scum always get a kill and whatever respective power(s) they've been given. Usually, one of the scum is chosen to make the kill so the RBer has to choose that same person to block the kill. Everything ability in which a player's name must be submitted is capable of being blocked. It's really not difficult.

[Jedo the Jedi]

You people are stupidly narrow-minded if you think the only possibility is for at least one of those three in this little triangle to be scum. They can easily all be town. I'm not really sure which it is, but I'm at least open to any of the possibilities.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I confirm Taz's answer, Oversoul.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Again, you guys automatically assume the worst. It's perfectly reasonable that there could be two RB missions considering there are more missions than we know about and they rotate in and out. It could happen, without any real stretch of the imagination, for two similar missions to be in the list at the same time. Can't you people learn to think like that?

What I don't get even more than that is why you people don't play your cards closer to the chest. When I'm a cop, if I get a guilty on the first night, I keep it hush-hush until a few more results. That way, I haven't made myself a target, and I have a chance at catching more of them. Sheesh. If either of you had kept the information that you RBed somebody to yourself, you could have sprung the trap when your target said they got a result. Now they're on the lookout.

Suppose you did target scum last night. As soon as you say your target, they can just say their power didn't work. It's useless now. The only possible way to catch scum would be to have everybody post if they did something or didn't, then you reveal. Have you guys completed your n00b games?

Finally, playing like this only allows scum to sit back and let the town self-destruct. They don't have to do anything if the town is pursuing their own mislynch. I'm not saying that is for sure happening here, but I see it as a pretty good possibility with as bad as you people are playing.[/soapbox]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I are assuming, in all you say in that last post, that there are two roleblockers. I think it is very unlikely. I'll make this easier.

@Everyone

: do you think there are two RoleBlocking missions?

I know you think it unlikely, but that doesn't matter. Get this through your damn, thick skull: you don't know what the mod did, so you don't know if there are two roleblock missions. Fuck likelihood. Why don't you address the other part of my post where I've told both of you that you shouldn't have come out so quickly

with no information

? How about starting with why you thought it to be a great idea to play it like you did, comparing that with what I said about the results you are likely to get from that method?

Scum is going to win this game. I just know it.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Mafia is all about likelyhood. You never know

for sure

anything about other player.

I could understand two cops, since one of them could be on scum's hands, and the mission would disapear with lynches.
2 docs would be highly unlikely, unless there are two scumteams.
2 RBs makes no sense at all. One JK and one RB would be ok, but two RBs is just stupid. Come on, most of the PRs is on town's hands. RB is technicaly an anti-town role, in some way.

M=W role-name explanation is nearly headdesking. You throw cement at someone, but concrete is to dump on people's feet? btw, OMGUS is not nice.

I would reveal my target, but it will be soooooo perfect when I do it that I'd rather wait a bit longer.

That first line doesn't negate what I said. I'm talking about the likelihood of the setup. For now, it's all equally likely. Why does two cops make sense because scum could have one of them, but two RBs doesn't? I've been in plenty of games where one of the scum had a RB ability. Also, RBers are only as powerful as there are other PRs. An RB in an otherwise all vanilla game would be totally useless and just fuck with the mind of the RBer. Considering we don't know how farside has balanced this game, even the two docs is a good possibility.

I would really like both you and Mew to answer the questions I posed.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I didn't ask because mal seemed to be suggesting he blocked Mew. It would make a difference, and would actually be the style of play I was advocating (waiting for the target to reveal their hand first). I would lynch Mew based on such information.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I never finished my initial thought: I figured mal would reveal when he is ready.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I must be confusing things. I thought that there were no powerroles and all powers were decided by the roles people had chosen? Of course, that wouldn't be fair given balance, but there seems to be a lot of theorycrafting and attempts to out guess Farside. I just watched a town's plan implode on itself in another game I am in, I don't want to see another half-baked plan fail again.

When I say PRs, I'm just referring to what is given by the missions. Also, I don't know who is the target of second part of that, but I'm not proposing any out-guess of Farside. The direct opposite in fact. (I'm really confused why you quoted

my

post.)

I think the plan needs to be given more consideration. It's been kind of gnawing at me, but I haven't really taken the time to pursue the negative repercussions of it. Anybody care to give it a whirl?

[Jedo the Jedi]

@Oversoul: That post I made does not imply your post is a scum slip, and I sort of would like to know why you think that is so.

I felt you were implying that.

Oversoul- You say the plan can be easily be manipulated by scum. I don't see it. Llama doesn't see it. Tell us how scum can manipulate it. If scum kills cement mixer, mew's card for N1 will flip. If they kill cement, Mal's card for N1 will flip. If scum kill neither of the roles, then the two people who has the roles will tell us tomorrow if they were a Rber. If scum is among one of the two people, they lie and say they were not a RBer, we have a 1:1 trade (with the 1 on our side being a probable lynch for today). All this plan is doing is not lynching one of the two claimed roleblockers.

What if the scum take the RB card and say it is indeed a RB and cause some sort of lynch because they gave credence to the lack of an N1 kill? What if they get towncred for something like this? What if one RB blocks the other? These are my thoughts, and I think Over might have been thinking more along these lines. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

What questions? I've looked through your recent ISO, and maybe I forgot how to read, but I didn't really see any except a couple rhetoric ones.

How about these questions?

Why don't you address the other part of my post where I've told both of you that you shouldn't have come out so quickly with no information? How about starting with why you thought it to be a great idea to play it like you did, comparing that with what I said about the results you are likely to get from that method?

I think you must have forgot how to read because they were in the previous post (in ISO) from which you quoted.

[Jedo the Jedi]

@Taz: Why are you claiming vanilla now and not before when others asked about vanila roles.

This. Very much this. Llama asked for vanilla roles to come out long ago. It seems convenient you only now told us. Don't give me some bullshit about doing it when you want. You aren't team playing, and that seems scummy.

vote Tazaro

@Llama: Why is Taz getting his same role? If nothing else, I think I've come to realize it might be good to control people getting the roles of each other. If you want Taz to have a vanilla role tonight, he should take a different one (assuming there is one and someone will tell us). Otherwise, we can't confirm the role. The only way I'm okay with him taking the same one is if we are positively going to lynch him, which I think is a pretty decent idea.

[Jedo the Jedi]

@Taz: Why are you claiming vanilla now and not before when others asked about vanila roles.

This. Very much this.

Llama asked for vanilla roles to come out long ago.

It seems convenient you only now told us. Don't give me some bullshit about doing it when you want. You aren't team playing, and that seems scummy.

vote Tazaro

It seems like I am getting punished for not reading all of what Llama wrote. I claimed after malpascp claimed to have roleblocked me, which would be used an explanation for why there was not a nightkill and a reason to lynch me or get me to L-1! Is it now used against me now! Are you saying I shouldn't claim in response to this and actually wait until I am at L-1?

Your cries have fallen upon deaf ears. The better play as the RB in this situation is to wait for their target to reveal their hand (which malp tried to do). You should have spoken up earlier like you were instructed, and if that means read better, so be it.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I don't care what anyone thinks is a point against me. I have not seen malpascp explain a justification for why it would make sense to claim he targeted me. WHY?

That's a weak attempt to divert the attention. If we are going to pursue that, we can return to why Mew chose Chuji. At least you seemed scummy to a person or two yesterday.

Also, you didn't do the right thing. That's the point.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Here's the thing: how can we know you just overlooked Llama's instruction? We can't. All we can know is that you didn't do what was instructed, and it was readily available for you to read. Claiming VT after the RBer says they blocked you on the night there was no kill is too convenient to be trusted, just like a cop claiming on day 1.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I am happy to begin the mission selection process if Llama is satisfied with his list. (I don't fully agree with his assumptions and plan regarding the missions, but I'm willing to give it a try.)

[Jedo the Jedi]

I am happy to begin the mission selection process if Llama is satisfied with his list. (I don't fully agree with his assumptions and plan regarding the missions, but I'm willing to give it a try.)

So, you'd be satisfied with viging kkslot tonight if you draw vig?

That would be a point of disagreement.

[Jedo the Jedi]

No, only the first three can pick, as far as I can tell.

Llama did.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Pick: Limo

[Jedo the Jedi]

What's the probability that malpascp's a scum if you were to assume I am a townie?

What's the probability we can hurry up and get all the missions picked so Taz can be lynched? This is so much of a buying time tactic.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Because there's always a chance he could convince the town to lynch a "better" candidate instead, thereby giving him another day. That's how I view it anyway. How helpful are random missions to scum? Not very, in my opinion.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Why is that a big problem? Already there are some who don't agree with the plan, so it's not like it will be that big of a detriment. The second would only be a moderate victory because we don't even know if that role will come back up and there may be another one like it. I don't think it's a worthy risk for a scum player.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Had an unexpected V/LA, but I'm back now. Sorry. Will post tomorrow.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I really don't like all of Taz's bargaining. I still see him trying to buy time just so he can survive for one more day. That's all scum need is one more day of not being lynched, and eventually they are the last ones standing.

I don't think you people read well, or scum is trying to suddenly turn the lynch away from their buddy. mal's reasoning was that if Taz was scum, he would be the most likely to send in the kill for the team because nobody would suspect him. It's a little WIFOM-y, but it's not totally unreasonable. I've done stranger things as a cop.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Taz, that is just annoying. Put it all in one post. Also, I don't care if you urge people to look into me. Stop bargaining for time. It's not like you are a cop who could actually use that time. You're just a vanilla townie until you pick a different mission.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Biggest whole I see there is that scum can't possibly hope to get away with lying about who they blocked. They either say nothing about the power they got, or they tell the truth about all of it. At that point, you can't really put stock in the missions and have to use old-fashioned, vanilla power scumhunting.

[Jedo the Jedi]

We are near for sure lynching CK today after the Taz flip, which also means M=W is town. Jackhammer was, obviously, anti-RBer as in unroleblocks anyone targeted by cement or concrete. Didn't use it.

Want to think on action orginizing a bit before lynching.

Your role alone confirms that M=W is town.

I also don't like Jedo's actions for late before hammer. Any particular reason as to why you acted the way you did, Jedo?

And for what particular actions would you like an explanation?

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'm not sure where you get the "certainty" part. I'm saying that I see scum doing this in general, so that's why my hackles are up when Taz does it. If he is town, I don't think he should have been doing that. So, those comments are "Taz looks pretty scummy because he's doing this thing scum do."

Second, there is absolutely no distancing of Mal in that post (or anywhere as far as I can tell). If anything, it's defending him and somehow tying myself to him. I was merely trying to correct these notions other people were throwing out about his actions which I think were incorrect. Mal's decision of whom to target was pretty null to me, not a scum indicator as many people were suggesting.

As for the last part, I can imagine you've given in to scum who used emotional pleas. I don't know how many scum have been at almost lynch and they acted similar to Taz. I've even begun to doubt myself in those instances a few times, but I knew I had to stay the course because scum can easily wriggle out like that. At least half of the time, I've made the correct choice, so that's reinforced that it is worth doing. Twice in this game it hasn't panned out. I would say some of that is they were playing somewhat poorly/anti-town. Of course, some of the fault also rests on those of us who read things incorrectly. *shrug* What can I do now except move on? At least their flips give a little insight.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Obviously he is telling the truth because Taz's mission card was missing. I see no problems.

Clever, Over, but I still think there are plenty of other possibilities for why there was no kill on N1. Apparently, the rest of the town was very intent on the roleblockers, much to our own detriment. I don't find that to be any sort of conclusive evidence.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Why am I being considered scum?

I hate giving out such information as reads because I feel scum can manipulate such lists/it gives them information about what the town is thinking, but I'll at least say I'm leaning toward Shadow as scum. At first, he seemed fine when he replaced in, but I think that might be some sort of syndrome in which replacements are given the benefit of the doubt. As he has participated, I feel like he's slipped in some scummy things. Mostly just saying more of what everybody else has said (appearing to participate) and his last-minute vote switch to Mal yesterday was interesting to say the least.

vote Shadow Dancer

[Jedo the Jedi]

How was it a last minute vote? And do you think Mal is town?

How was it not? Taz was pretty sure to be the lynch (the probability of things changing was low), and that vote switch to Mal was your last one for the day. Plus, you were really hardcore on Taz until the business with Mal revealing his target. Even after that you were on Taz because he didn't reveal vanilla earlier like he should have, but then you had a sudden switch to Mal. More than that, you said one of Mal/Taz was definitely scum, so considering the flip, why aren't you voting Mal?

I think we've caught a scum for real right here. Check it.

(P.S. - I think Mal is null. His night actions are not incriminating to me.)

Finally, do I not get the courtesy of an answer because I'm suspected scum? At least give me a chance to defend myself against the accusations.

[Jedo the Jedi]

That comment is definitely directed at the people asserting me as scum.

You did mention Mal as a scum read on D1, but within a list of others and he was the last addition. Not overly strong reasons either, in my opinion. More than that though, it takes you most of the next day to come back around to him. Hardly a mention at all until near the end.

[Jedo the Jedi]

D1 - 2 posts saying you would iso mal, 1 post giving the bullet scum list of mal, and 1 lumping mal in with other "better lynches for the day" over Peregrine
D1 Total: 4 of 17
D2 - 1 post questioning mal's claim and subsequent vote, 1 post listing mal among the "rectangle" of night events, 1 post saying why mal is likely town, 1 post asking why mal and taz are voting each other, 1 post saying mal and m=w are "highly unlikely" scum based on how they claimed, 1 post arguing for mal's townieness despite the previous day's scumread on him, 1 post stating the issue of mal's prolonged target reveal, 1 post questioning mal's target choice, 1 post mentioning mal with regard to a plan to catch scum, 1 post FOSing mal and starting a new case on him, 2 posts mentioning mal in a discussion of Taz's vote choice, 1 post listing mal among others for consideration by Poro, 1 post saying Taz isn't set in stone and mal could be lynched, and 1 post voting mal.
D2 Total: 15 of 50

That's less than a third of you total posts, not to mention you spend most of D2 thinking him town for the way he claimed only to change your mind in the last few posts. In the meantime, your read of Taz never changes, but you decide at the last minute on D2 that mal is more scummy and should instead be the lynch that day. The thing that really stands out to me is that for both days you are not behind the lynch. D1 you are voting for Peregrine, but your last post of the day says you would rather have lynched three other people ahead of him given the opportunity. D2 you are gung-ho about lynching Taz all day, but at the end of the day you switch at the last minute saying mal would be a better lynch. Sounds like a good way to have plausible deniability when they flip town.

Taking the tangent, this is why I don't understand my own scumminess. I was a heavy pusher for the Peregrine lynch, and ultimately solidly for the Taz lynch. I know there's some WIFOM here, but I don't see scum being so straightforward very often.

[Jedo the Jedi]

You can hardly say I did not advocate for the lynch. The point is that there was also no good reason to defend or not lynch Taz.

He was very scummy right on his own and Mal claiming a roelblock on his scumbuddy as a safe claim (his scum buddy would not CC him) was a very real possibility.

Right, so why did you jump off at the last minute for a lynch which wasn't likely to go through? That bolded portion is exactly my problem with the situation.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Reading over recent activity I have some town reads on Shadow. I still think the things I've pointed out are suspicious, but they've presently been outweighed.

unvote

That leaves me with almost nowhere to go. Llama is seeming suspicious because of the super weak case on me, especially considering his only defense is that it would be informative. I have news for you, Llama, we've lost too many people just to have a lynch for information. I definitely need more posting from Over as well so I can get some responses to this business.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Ugh with this list business, but I'll comply.

Jedo: I know I'm town, and I still don't understand why some think me scum.

Llama: I would list him as scum because of the potshot at me (mostly for the weak reasoning), and Shadow's second point about the strategy emphasis D2. I hadn't considered that before.

Over: Leaning scum, at least more than Mew. Not much here other than the weak comments about why I'm scum.

Mew: Null. I don't think that N1 business is anything truly significant. Nothing really I would call town either.

I would prefer a Llama lynch before Mal, mike. (Since I have no scum read on Mal...)

vote Llama

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'm fine with lynching mike, though for me, his flip clears nobody.

What I do not agree with is why you people keep making plans assuming my scumminess. There has been no case presented outlining this, and Llama continues to spout it off. Fuck your plan, Llama. I'm currently planning to shoot you unless you stop arrogantly prancing around and dignify me with a reasonable response. Also, your method of identifying scum is piss poor.

Finally, I will not disclose the action of limo. I was poised to find some good information last night, but Over screwed that up. Go figure since he's another who hasn't satisfactorily explained why I'm scum. You people are stressing me out and over-thinking this game. Stop focusing on the mechanics and just focus on scumhunting the old-fashion way. I've caught more scum as vanilla than with a PR.

[Jedo the Jedi]

The problem with your plan is that it is completely based around

your

reads which I think are based on faulty logic, namely probability and process of elimination. Nothing is preventing crazy scum gambits from these "cleared" town people of yours.

I could easily give my top scum reads and say we should use your plan on them. Plus, you've built this plan around your scum reads, but you've still included the caveat that scum can still be in your controlled group even if the evidence shows otherwise. More than that, with such a structured plan, the scum know exactly how things will go and can adjust to produce the most WIFOM. It's terrible.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I think TOG, Shadow, and mal are town. You and Over are leaning scum, and Mew and Chuji are null. I know I'm town, so this is a waste of time from my perspective, especially since the player controlling town is the top of my scum list.

I'm not picking limo. If I have to use my vig ability tonight, someone town needs that one because I think it could be useful. I think TOG. Maybe it isn't as useful as I think since I didn't get to see the results, but I think it shouldn't be in scum hands.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Fine.

Pick Fedora.

[Jedo the Jedi]

One of 3 things is going on here: 1) I missed some information, 2) you guys proposing this shit are scum, or 3) you are dumb.

Just because you "used" a cop thing to catch a scum does not clear you. It could be convoluted bussing. Llama is far from cleared in any sense of the term. Again, this entire plan is based on a flawed perspective which is almost all theory. Where is the hard evidence? Oh yeah, there is none.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Also, what about the flaw in the plan that scum can just choose not to kill for WIFOM? Since you have conveniently outlined all the scenarios, they just have to act in accordance with whatever outcome they desire. God this is stupid play.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Me = town because duh me winning and copped mike and then mike admitted it

Llama = likly town his interactions with mike

Over = likly town given him and mike discussed powers of cement and concrete

killing powers out loud

. They wouldn't need to do that if they are buddies.

As long as those 2 roles tell same killing info to Llama and Shadow tonight, then over should be town.

This is my problem. None of this is close to being good evidence for clearing people. Why is no one backing me up on this?

unvote, vote mike

[Jedo the Jedi]

Oh my God! Are you smoking crack? It is most probable there are 3 scum in this game. You can easily have gambited with mike for a bus and still leave another scum buddy. You are freaking not confirmed! Stop saying that bullshit.

Actually, you know what? I think you are scum. This terrible logic you are using to continue defending your weak position screams to me you are just trying to push this through so you can win.

unvote, vote Chuji

If you are not lynched today, I will vig you tonight.

[Jedo the Jedi]

If you agree with his logic, Over, you are dumb. He's either scum trying to pull the wool, or he's town with super bad logic.

What do you mean "far more obvious scenarios," Shadow? I know I'm not scum, so all this POE business means nothing to me and is completely wrong. Nobody is considering that Llama and/or Chuji could be scum, in which case this town would just be putting the lube on for them. Also, I'm not holding up the day with my vote, so no need to freak about that. Finally, I recognize now that it would be detrimental to lynch someone other than mike today, but that won't stop me from vigging Chuji.

[Jedo the Jedi]

My word choice was too absolute, I will confess, but saying you made a passing comment previously does not mean you suspect them.

Thank you for agreeing that CK's clear of himself is not valid. The difference between me and these crazy people is My clear of Shadow is based on his posting rather than using a power he was given.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Jedo- You've said town should be relying on scumhunting and not mechanics on who to lynch. Yet you vote me for pressing a plan based on the mechanics of the game confirming town.

If that's what you think my reasons are, you are sorely mistaken. Try reading better.

[Jedo the Jedi]

You would be playing into scum's hands if that happens, TOG. Besides, I'll probably follow the plan so I can write a big, fat "I told you so" post when the game is over.

[Jedo the Jedi]

It's not feasible to quote multiple posts from a phone, otherwise I would bury you with such a post. Just go back and read that my major problem with you and Llama is your horrible logic/reasons which clear you. At any rate, you are doing an incredible job of being obtuse.

TOG, at the risk of sounding repetetive, read what I have said (in response to you no less): I will most likely follow the plan, so there is no risk of me being "stupid hard headed town." Just shut up and let's get on with this.

unvote, vote mike

[Jedo the Jedi]

Because those don't confirm you as town. How hard is this? At least two other people have pointed that out. Your POE is completely fucked up because of faulty assumptions. I should be more confirmed town than you just from my play. More than that, you and Llama have proposed a plan based on this faulty POE which will leave us at MyLo with no truly clear idea of another scum. If you continue to hold this analysis, scum can manipulate your data to lead to my mislynch and win. That's really not a game I want to play.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I don't really care about the awesomeness of the scum team (though it was awesome) as much as I care to tell Chuji and Llama that

YOUR POE SUCKS BALLS

!

That is all.