Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[Aelyn]

Game over!

Look down and see the beggars at your feet
Look down and show some mercy if you can
Look down and see the sweepings of the street
Look down, look down,
Upon your fellow man!

The year is 1832. The streets of Paris have been rife with dissent in recent years, as the Government only seem to care abut the bourgoisie and not the common man. There's a revolution in the works, and the various scum of the streets are treating this as a prime opportunity to steal, murder, plunder, and otherwise break the law for their own, unsavoury means...

Players alive:

gootentag

Players dead, ill, maimed, on the run or otherwise incarcerated:

Seol (Grantaire, townie) - Sliced open night 1.
Emptyger (Thenardier, mafia) - Lynched day 1.
vikingfan (Marius, mason) - Shot in the head night 2.
LoudmouthLee (Cosette, self-protecting townie) - Comitted suicide night 2.
Changling Bob (Enjolras, recruiting mason) - Lynched day 2.
Mr Stoofer (Eponine, doctor) - Stabbed night 3.
LordKrishna (Javert, police officer) - Lynched say 3.
MeMe (Jean Valjean, infuential townie) - Killed in endgame.

[Aelyn]

Rules (stolen of course)

- Remember, it’s a game. It’s supposed to be played. It’s supposed to be fun. Do your part.
-

Votes must be in bold. If you do not bold your vote, it will not be counted.

- Please be attentive and unvote, if necessary, before casting a new vote. This is not required, but I’d appreciate it.
- Executions will require a simple majority of votes.

Once a player has reached the necessary majority, his pleas are useless and any attempts to unvote will be unheeded.

You may vote: no lynch – majority votes of this kind are necessary to end the day without a death.
-

The game is not to be discussed outside of the thread unless your role specifically states that you may do so.

-

once your death scene has been posted, you’re dead. Stop typing.

-

Don’t edit/delete previously submitted posts.

-

Don’t quote any PMs from me.

- If you have a night choice to make, it is due by the posted deadline. I will not wait for you – if you do not submit a choice to me, tough! No choice will be made.
- If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period, please

post a notice to that effect in the thread.

Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.

And lastly, remember, this game's supposed to be fun! Don't let yourself get too worked up over it, don't build up grudges, don't try to bend the rules in an attempt to win... Just enjoy the game!

[Aelyn]

It is currently

Night 1.

Everyone who has night choices, please get them to me ASAP. Night 2 will end

72 hours (ish) from this post

; that is, about 2:30 pm Saturday 12th, GMT.

[Aelyn]

It's just another day in 1832 Paris. You all stumble out of whatever you use as beds, blearily hoping that all your friends and family are still awake. Suddenly, one of you notices that the streets are quieter than normal. After pondering the resons for several minutes, you realise what's missing - the loud, drunken soliloquies emanating from the vocal cords of Seol. In the heavy silence, you instead hear his voice, feeble and week.

"Drink with me... To days... gone by.
Can it be... you fear to die?
Will the world remember you... when you fall?
Could it be your death means... nothing at all?
Is your life... just one... more..."

And then silence.

You hurry along to his favourite bar, the ABC Cafe, and your suspicions are confirmed - he's lying in the corner. To begin with you just assume that he's asleep. And that's wine on the floor. But you can't fool yourself for long, and you tentatively roll him over to find a huge wound in his stomach. You aren't used to this kind of violence in this part of town, and decide to sort out the problem once and for all. It's well known that two wrongs don't make a right, so you decide instead that a

majority

of wrongs will make a right.

Seol (Grantaire, townie) is dead

It is

Day 1. 8 people live; 5 to lynch.

[Mr Stoofer]

First random

Vote: EmpTyger

of the day.

[LoudmouthLee]

Random

vote: Changling Bob

Mod, you might want to chaing topic subject from Night to Day. Not trying to tell you how to do your job, but.....

[Aelyn]

I don't know what you mean, Lee...

[EmpTyger]

This is my first time playing a game in a non-newbie thread, so I apologize if anything I say seems blindingly obvious.

First of all who here has read the book/seen the play?

I think we have a 2 person mafia. A 3 person mafia would potentially make a mislynch on the first day fatal. This means that the town is slightly stronger in a newbie game, even though it starts at night: we begin day one with 2 mafia and 6 innocents, as opposed to 2 and 5. So I think the town might be further handicapped. Does anyone have any experience in 9 person games?

I was wondering whether having everyone claim their characters made any sense, because working from the main characters there seemed to be a small number of main roles (eg: Valjean, Cosette, Marius). However, since Seol had a relatively minor character, that doesn’t seem the best plan. Mafia could easily claim relatively minor roles like Grantaire, and we’d be unable to tell who they were. And there’s a great risk that any cops and doctors would be easy for the mafia to identify from their characters.

Is there any reason not to have a cop come forwards if they think they’ve found someone who is mafia? Conversely, is there any reason to have a cop come forwards if they haven’t?

Random

Vote: LoudmouthLee

. Since it seems like we’re working up from the bottom of the list...

[MeMe]

vote: gootentag

It is

Day 1. 11 people live; 6 to lynch.

Mod, you might want to change the count to 8 alive, 5 to lynch. Not trying to tell you how to do your job, but.....

[LoudmouthLee]

vote: gootentag

It is

Day 1. 11 people live; 6 to lynch.

Mod, you might want to change the count to 8 alive, 5 to lynch. Not trying to tell you how to do your job, but.....

Highfive MeMe

[MeMe]

Is there any reason not to have a cop come forwards if they think they’ve found someone who is mafia? Conversely, is there any reason to have a cop come forwards if they haven’t?

Well, in this theme the one

obvious

cop (Javert) may not judge correctly. Although I'd assume Javert to be on the side of the town, I wouldn't trust his judgment completely. After all, he identified someone incorrectly as being Jean Valjean and pursued Jean Valjean mercilessly despite the fact that JV had changed his ways. He even commits suicide because he realizes that the law, to which he'd dedicated his life, isn't always just.

So, basically, I'm against the cop coming out at this time -- though I might have to reconsider if someone has a cop role and is

not

named Javert.

[LoudmouthLee]

Is there any reason not to have a cop come forwards if they think they’ve found someone who is mafia? Conversely, is there any reason to have a cop come forwards if they haven’t?

Well, in this theme the one

obvious

cop (Javert) may not judge correctly. Although I'd assume Javert to be on the side of the town, I wouldn't trust his judgment completely. After all, he identified someone incorrectly as being Jean Valjean and pursued Jean Valjean mercilessly despite the fact that JV had changed his ways. He even commits suicide because he realizes that the law, to which he'd dedicated his life, isn't always just.

So, basically, I'm against the cop coming out at this time -- though I might have to reconsider if someone has a cop role and is

not

named Javert.

FoS: MeMe

MeMe, I have a question for you, then.

Say Javert is a cop as you say he is. Who's the Mafia then?

As the major antagonist in Les Mis, I would assume that Javert would be the Mafia GF, if you will, for reasons you have said previously.

So, MeMe, play Mod for a second. If not Javert, then who? [/b]

[MeMe]

Come on, that's too easy. How about the Thenardiers?

Looking a little eager there, LML.

[LoudmouthLee]

LML is ALWAYS eager. Nothing against you, MeMe. Just my Mafia style. You'll see a lot of FOS's thrown out by me. I like to gather information that way.

I, however, am not sold on Javert being a cop. Sorry.

[MeMe]

LML - your "style," if you're town, could kind of hurt things. My post about Javert was crafted in such a way because of two specific reasons.

1) Javert,

if

scum, should feel as though the town would be receptive to the possibility of him NOT being scum. Say you're right and he's mafia -- well your attitude will certainly scare him away from claiming. Town is in need of information and we're certainly not going to get it from Javert if you're screaming "

scum

" at his role.

2) I think that Aelyn has an affection for Javert as he's been sporting lyrics from his suicide song in his signature for quite some time. I think that anyone who truly understands Javert realizes that he was always driven to uphold the law -- not to break it.

The Thenardiers are

definitely

scuzzy. From anyone's viewpoint.

[Aelyn]

*Sigh*

Damn my last-minute change from 12 to 9.

Yes, it's 5 to lynch, 8 alive. Sorry all.

While I'm at it,

Votecount:

Emptyger 1 – (Mr Stoofer)
Changling Bob 1 – (LoudmouthLee)
LoudmouthLee 1 – (Emptyger)
Gootentag 1 – (MeMe)

[vikingfan]

Hey everyone!

Speaking toward Javert, I always tend toward the thinking: "Never try to outguess the mod."

Random vote MeMe

[EmpTyger]

Could everyone just indicate whether they have or have not read the book/seen the play? And how familiar they are? For example, is there anyone who doesn’t know who Grantaire is? If we're analyzing the nature of the character of Javert, it would help to know everyone's background.
Myself: read and seen, multiple times.

About Javert: Unless the characters were assigned to roles randomly, I don’t see who would be in a mafia with Javert. Perhaps he’d a serial killer, but it doesn’t make sense to have a serial killer in a game this size. I agree with MeMe: a Therardier-based mafia seems more likely.

Is there a good way to check whether a cop found mafia last night? In newbie 85 everyone posted one of {“If I am the cop, I did not find mafia last night” / “I found a mafia”}. Of course, given what happened in that game, that might not be the best precedent...


LML:
You seem to be a bit “eager” to preemptively discredit a likely cop. Not that Javert would necessarily be reliable, but there’s a huge difference between insane and evil, and I don’t see any reason (so far) to label Javert a godfather.


MeMe:

Is there any reason not to have a cop come forwards if they think they’ve found someone who is mafia? Conversely, is there any reason to have a cop come forwards if they haven’t?

Well, in this theme the one

obvious

cop (Javert) may not judge correctly. Although I'd assume Javert to be on the side of the town, I wouldn't trust his judgment completely. After all, he identified someone incorrectly as being Jean Valjean and pursued Jean Valjean mercilessly despite the fact that JV had changed his ways. He even commits suicide because he realizes that the law, to which he'd dedicated his life, isn't always just.

Hence my phrasing: "if

they think

they’ve found someone who is mafia".
Actually, is there anyone who Javert would think innocent? I mean, even himself? (Which would be a very interesting literary experiment, actually, to have Javert investigate himself. If only it weren’t for the fact that it would waste a turn for the town.)

So, basically, I'm against the cop coming out at this time -- though I might have to reconsider if someone has a cop role and is

not

named Javert.

Isn't this illogical? I mean, if you knew that there were a non-Javert cop, ipso facto they’ve come out, so there isn’t anything to reconsider. Could you at the least elaborate on why?

[LoudmouthLee]

Read and Seen multiple times here.

[vikingfan]

Same as LoudmouthLee.

[MeMe]

Read and seen several times, though I'm not at all sure why this would matter. The mod provided a link to needed information in the sign-up queue, so I'm pretty sure even someone totally ignorant of the story would have adequate claiming potential (though I've not checked the link myself).

EmpTyger -- I'm not sure if you've actually got a question about the second quote attributed to me in your last post...it may have been worded sloppily but I think the meaning should be clear. I'll attempt to clarify, regardless.

--I don't think that Javert need expose himself. If he's a cop, an investigation result of "guilty" can't be trusted, in my opinion...and an investigation result of "innocent" shouldn't be revealed at this point.
--In general, I'm against cops coming forward on Day 1 even with a guilty investigation because 1) sanity is always in question (unless the role specifically states sanity) and 2) we can never be sure they'll be protected, even if sanity is known. But, in a smallish game like this, if there

is

a cop with a role name other than Javert and they think they've found a guilty, it might be a decent idea to have them come forward -- it's an unusual situation, though, and I'm not about to demand it.

And I'll also just come right out and say that I'm fully against mass role claims on Day One and strategizing ways to break a set-up in any game. I'd prefer to deduce scum through their posts rather than to expose a possibly flawed set-up (which is what a set-up that rewards tactics such as these would have to be).

[LordKrishna]

Hi, all. I've read the book, not seen the play, though I do know some of the music (I assume that by 'the play', you all mean the musical...?).

I agree with MeMe, breaking the set-up of a game is no fun. I've not seen a Mass Claim happen (cuz I'm still a newb), but I can't imagine that such a game would be fun to play... and ain't that the point, folks?

-K

[EmpTyger]

It’s hasn’t been 24 hours so it might be too early for lurker prods, but I just had a game in which the town was decimated by lurking [newbie 85], so forgive me if I’m on the overzealous side.

bob and gootentag, neither have you have posted yet, and both of you already have a vote on you. bob, you were also in 85, so you should certainly know better. gootentag, you posted in another thread after this one was unlocked this morning. Any reason why?

Unvote: LoudmouthLee
Vote: gootentag

MeMe:

Read and seen several times, though I'm not at all sure why this would matter. The mod provided a link to needed information in the sign-up queue, so I'm pretty sure even someone totally ignorant of the story would have adequate claiming potential (though I've not checked the link myself).

Perhaps I should have read the queue thread, especially since it gives an answer for most players.
<checks links> Actually, I *hope* everyone's already read the book; those have an awful lot of spoilers. The cliffsnotes link does seem like a likely character bank, btw. I’d ask whether anyone’s character isn’t on the list, but that seems like it would run afoul of "strategizing against the setup". Eh, perhaps I am metagaming too much, although I guess I see it like your speculating on the translation between character and role in the case of Javert. Part of the game. <shrug> Not that I think that a mass claim is a particularly good idea, but I think all possibilities should be considered before dismissed, no matter why we dismiss them.

I’d rather wait until hearing everyone’s answer before answering your "why would this matter" question, if that’s alright? It probably doesn't matter at this point, but I might as well wait. I think it’s just bob and gootentag’s status which are uncertain, so after they indicate.

EmpTyger -- I'm not sure if you've actually got a question about the second quote attributed to me in your last post...it may have been worded sloppily but I think the meaning should be clear. I'll attempt to clarify, regardless.<snip>

In [10] you said you weren’t sure whether a non-Javert cop should come forward, but would reconsider if someone was a non-Javert cop. I was pointing out if someone came forward then there is no longer anything to consider- the non-Javert cop has already come forward! So it seemed you left it ambiguous whether a non-Javert cop should come forward, so I asked for clarification. Which you kind of did in [20], although you still are hedging.

1) sanity is always in question (unless the role specifically states sanity)<snip>

Pardon my inexperience, because I feel silly for bringing up something that seems very obvious. But, I mean, wouldn’t it defeat the purpose of insanity for the role to specifically say so?

I’m getting a bit suspicious of you, but as mentioned above I’d rather hear from everyone before placing votes for people based on their participating.

Just noticed something else:

vote: gootentag

<snip>

This wasn’t explicitly labeled as random. Was it?

[MeMe]

Eh, perhaps I am metagaming too much, although I guess I see it like your speculating on the translation between character and role in the case of Javert. Part of the game.

Let me remind you that I was responding to

your

idea about the possibility of the cop coming forward.

I’d rather wait until hearing everyone’s answer before answering your "why would this matter" question, if that’s alright?

I don't mind waiting -- but for someone doing a lot of heavy questioning, it's a bit odd that you seem to be avoiding answering one.

In [10] you said you weren’t sure whether a non-Javert cop should come forward, but would reconsider if someone was a non-Javert cop. I was pointing out if someone came forward then there is no longer anything to consider- the non-Javert cop has already come forward! So it seemed you left it ambiguous whether a non-Javert cop should come forward, so I asked for clarification. Which you kind of did in [20], although you still are hedging.

Well your explanation here is exactly what I thought it was...nitpicking at my words. There's no way you can honestly say that I'm "hedging," I went out of my way to be perfectly clear about what my meaning was. Or are you still confused? Be specific about your allegation of "hedging" -- if you can't, I'll have to wonder why you're trying so hard to make me look less than forthcoming.

1) sanity is always in question (unless the role specifically states sanity)<snip>

Pardon my inexperience, because I feel silly for bringing up something that seems very obvious. But, I mean, wouldn’t it defeat the purpose of insanity for the role to specifically say so?

I'll pardon your inexperience, but your tone is beginning to feel less innocently inquisitive and more accusatory. Sanity is always in question unless the role specifically states sanity. The only specificity I've ever seen in a cop role is "you are guaranteed sane" or the like. Did you really think I was suggesting that a role might say "you are paranoid" or "you are reverse"? And why didn't you consider it from the "you are sane" angle rather than the ridiculous "you are insane" one? Again, it feels as though you're working hard to make me look bad, but you're having to bend over backward to do so.

vote: gootentag

<snip>

This wasn’t explicitly labeled as random. Was it?

What's the purpose of asking "was it"? You can see perfectly well that it wasn't.

[LoudmouthLee]

There's a lot going on here. Let me first say that after some serious thought, I will withdraw my idea about Javert being scum. After looking at MY role, I can assume who I think the scum are. Javert would not be one of them.

However, onto a different matter:

If i'm getting the insinuation, which I believe I am, I'm going to make an odd vote here.

Unvote: CB, Vote: EmpTyger

Rationale:

Point 1- He asked the initial question about everyone's knowledge of Les Mis. If ET is mafia, then he would likely be able to ascertain his claim chances if he knows the knowledge base of his opponents. Very.. questionable.

Especially after we see post 22:

I’d rather wait until hearing everyone’s answer before answering your "why would this matter" question, if that’s alright? It probably doesn't matter at this point, but I might as well wait. I think it’s just bob and gootentag’s status which are uncertain, so after they indicate.

Point 2- ET seems to have a "cop fear", especially one about a sane cop. Javert might have been "discredited" somewhat, but Javert (a very likely role) is still a cop.

Spot me if I made a mistake. I'll be happy to correct.