Toy Story Mafia (Day 9)

[Ray Montano]

1] Why did you decide to give mafiascum a try?
2] How do you react to people attacking you?
3] What will you be known for in this game?
4] What is your time zone?
5] How frequently can we expect you to post?

1. Ran across the site on accident while looking up the rules to the real life game after a disagreement with a friend.
2. Depends on the situation now, doesn't it?
3. Probably for having correctly tunneled on a scum player for three days until the town finally decides to agree with me and lynch them. Or being annoyed with people.
4. Central.
5. As frequently as productive discussion is happening.

[Ray Montano]

2] Relatively passively.
3] Reaction fishing.

If you react passively how is that fishing for reactions?

[Ray Montano]

Yeah but you're not going to get a good read off everything. So you can zwets your way through the game and get reactions from everyone...but that doesn't do anything...

[Ray Montano]

flip are you waiting for all 23 players to answer before providing any individual feedback?

[Ray Montano]

I can understand something like this in a game with half the number of players but having to keep track of 23 other players opinions on questions like that seems a little...unnecessary to me.

[Ray Montano]

I'm more or less in agreeance with you on this point

i'm quoting this to point out that i'm bothered by it. you're specifically pointing that you agree with me, and in the event you are mafia, i don't need any mafia cuddling up to me.

This is only a problem for you if you're in a different scum group. If someone's buddying up to you take note and let it slide, wait until after they're lynched to analyze why. I don't see the necessity in stating something like that ^^^

[Ray Montano]

@nanook

no, if someone is outwardly buddying up to me, i'm going to make it known in thread that they are doing it. if i "

let it slide

" and that person flips mafia, people could refer back to the mafia member's post history and see that they sided with me specifically. my stance that they were "buddying up to me" would be much less credible after the mafia died without it documented that i did not like how chummy the mafia member was.

I'm assuming you're directing this at me since you basically just responded to my post. IMO you don't need to point something like that out if you don't have anything to worry about it. Clearly, you're worried about many things.

[Ray Montano]

It could be her off site experience has soured her to perceived buddying

Excuse. If we start allowing things like that to slip by the game gets way too muddled.

Ray Montano. What are your thoughts on Kendall, Bob, Umbrage, and Nanook?

I think kendall's biggest draw isn't that she's trying to hard, I think she's just throwing so much shit up there on the wall and hoping something will stick. Right from her very first post:

They have a purpose; please answer them.

why should i answer your questions? how do i know this isn't a

mafia

purpose?

3] What will you be known for in this game? - probably for posting something stupid and I will probably end up tunneling too hard on somebody like I have done in every game I play in.

it's unsettling to me that he's already providing an excuse for "tunneling" a member, which is often indicative of an eager mafia. i don't like this

VOTE: jmurph because you caught me as scum in a newbie game once.

only a mafia would be afraid of being caught as scum.

Things like this all just seem very unnecessary. Its one thing to start a line of questioning on a player, its another thing to start something and be like "oh and here's X reason why". Like saying its unsettling that Beck is providing an excuse to tunnel...and then adding on why he could be scum for it. Its too early in the game to be making statements like that with value. Because there's no value in it right now. In my opinion, its shit throwing.

I think bob is fine for right now. I'm not really seeing anything that's unsettling to me except for maybe being a little opportunistic with the kendall vote. Other than that I think he's been right on (if not a little unnecessary with the fluff posting).

I think Umbrage is being far more opportunistic than bob is with the kendall vote, considering there's quite a lack of content posting from the guy.

And fucking Nanook...he's perfect and has everything a Mafia player needs.

But in all serious he's been rational and brought up good points and generated good discussion.

Ray Montano. What are your thoughts on Kendall, Bob, Umbrage, and Nanook?

HOLD. UP. Jesus I was writing it up. Push me again and you get nothing.

[Ray Montano]

@ray

everyone in this game has something to worry about: your win condition. so yes, based on my win condition i am worried that mafia will deceive the town. i consider every aspect of strategy, considering this is,afterall, a

strategic

game. if you play with "no worries," you fail to think, you fail to plan, and you don't meet your win condition. i like to cover all of my bases.

If your win condition is to player for yourself then great! You're probably doing an amazing job. But if your win condition is to play on a team with players who do not know anyone's alignment and can only gain information from logical assessment points (of which you should be helping to provide) then booooo. You are failing. It seems to me that you are only concerned with numero uno and that is not a pro-town attitude.

Just a minute there Ray. I was only posting it as a reminder since we were on a new page. I didn't want you to miss it. I didn't know you were writing the post. Sorry.

Don't assume I'm going to miss things.

are you saying that pointing out suspicious behavior is unnecessary? that's not very pro-town of you.

No. I'm saying that pointing out "suspicious behavior" (in quotes because none of that really was) and then explaining why that would make them scum is unnecessary.

the way i play is when i see scummy behavior, i note
1. that it has the potential to be scummy and
2. why it has the potential to be scummy.

Then we're going to have some issues. Because #2 is fine when you're attempting to lynch a player. But if you're providing #2 with every single #1 you give then you're already killing discussion because you've eliminated the need to discuss the validity of #1. And discussing out #1 is where you find players slipping up. You only have to throw out #1 and #2 if you're attempting to lynch a player or you're desperate for any suspicion on any player.

[Ray Montano]

i would like to point out that my aggressive playstyle has a purpose - to upset the mafia.

pay close attention to those who bandwagon onto my lynch, town.

Stating that purpose and then telling what to pay attention to negates any purpose you had.

[Ray Montano]

Okay kendall.

They have a purpose; please answer them.

why should i answer your questions? how do i know this isn't a

mafia

purpose?

3] What will you be known for in this game? - probably for posting something stupid and I will probably end up tunneling too hard on somebody like I have done in every game I play in.

it's unsettling to me that he's already providing an excuse for "tunneling" a member, which is often indicative of an eager mafia. i don't like this

VOTE: jmurph because you caught me as scum in a newbie game once.

only a mafia would be afraid of being caught as scum.

1. Asking why you should answer the question before answering is...somewhat reasonable, if not just being difficult. But then asking if its for a mafia purpose? That's just ridiculous. Do you expect him to answer yes? Not logical.
2. Stating that you're unsettled by a player making an excuse for tunneling is...somewhat reasonable. But then following it up with its because its indicative of "eager mafia"? Why didn't you ask why he would provide an excuse for tunneling and call him out on it instead of giving a copout reasoning behind your suspicion? If your suspicion is valid then you wouldn't have to over-explain yourself and you can nail him with the "its indicative of eager mafia" if he reacts poorly. The focus is taken off what you're suspicious of, and instead puts it on this "eager mafia" claim. Not logical.
3. Just ridiculousness.

Considering that's all I brought up of you would you like me to go find other examples? I think you can get the point. But if you don't it'd be my pleasure.

tell me how explaining what is suspicious about someone's behavior is unnecessary. would you prefer we all just say "

kendall is suspicious

" and leave it at that? no. you have to state who is suspicious, and what they did to make them seem that way.
it doesn't make them mafia
but it keeps a record of suspicious things that they did.
all that we have to go off of in this game is words, and you better believe i will pay close attention to each post and try and figure out why someone posted it.

the way i play is when i see scummy behavior, i note
1. that it has the potential to be scummy and
2. why it has the potential to be scummy.

Then we're going to have some issues. Because #2 is fine when you're attempting to lynch a player. But if you're providing #2 with every single #1 you give then you're already killing discussion because you've eliminated the need to discuss the validity of #1. And discussing out #1 is where you find players slipping up. You only have to throw out #1 and #2 if you're attempting to lynch a player or you're desperate for any suspicion on any player.

Don't ask me questions I've already answered.

you can't have number 1 without number 2. if someone does something suspicious, there has to be a reason why you think it's suspicious. case and point.

If you provide case and point hand in hand then the argument becomes about the point instead of the case, which is really the important thing to be discussed. Providing the case AND THEN providing a line of questioning which can juice information out of other players brings focus to the case and can bring up other points.

i want answers.
real answers.
full answers.

Get over yourself.

Vote: kendall

I don't see how you're providing anything useful to the town, I don't think you're attempting to generate discussion that can provide information on other players' alignment, and I think you're in this game all about yourself...which is a significantly anti-town attitude.

[Ray Montano]

@Ray, .. I just want to point out that the only reason that I stated "in thread" was because kendall did. You can make of it what you'd like though.

Noted, thanks.

[Ray Montano]

I think Umbrage is being far more opportunistic than bob is with the kendall vote, considering there's quite a lack of content posting from the guy.

It's called minimalism. In a game of this size we can't all go RAH RAH LOOK AT ME.

But why would you rather someone like kendall taking up the attention? Do you honestly believe her talking as much as she has and you talking as little as you are is beneficial to the town?

[Ray Montano]

Tired of the kendall distractions. Everything she is saying is meaningless to me.

[Ray Montano]

if you don't agree with it there has to be a reason

why

That reason being there is nothing useful I can extract from your posting.

As for you being gone, good. I hope everybody else uses the time while you're away productively. That way there's enough discussion generated to negate anything you say when you come back.

[Ray Montano]

ACTUALLY kendall, you stated nothing about me before I targeted YOU. So this:

i have scumhunted, i pointed out suspicious behavior of members. those members have subsequently targeted me

is not accurate. Pro-town players don't play the victim.

[Ray Montano]

@Ray- It's part of the game. Is everything one player said meaningless?

I can't trust that anything kendall's said is to be taken seriously.

[Ray Montano]

Paranoia is justified.

How does paranoia clear a player as town?

I'm also not understanding how kendall gets slipped the newb card when she states things like "I always play this way". If there's an "always" then clearly some sort of rhythm has been established, which can only be established through experience.

and am even MORE busy since Band Camp has started.

lol band camp...

Do you realize that there is no one you have addressed that you do not find "suspicious", "unsettling" or "scummy"? By doing that you create a whole lot of doubt and suspicion around so many players that you are basically handing mafia easy mislynches by pointing out everyone's flaws that can easily be exploited. Your play style is also paranoid, and its full of assumptions, like that people don't look at motivation before answering.

I disagree with part of this. I don't think kendall is in any position to be handing mafia easy mislynches, because I don't really think anybody's going to pick up anything she's said and run with it. That, however, is one of my problems with kendall. Because there's so much shit being thrown at the wall you can't trust that any of it has any weight because two pages from now she's probably not even going to remember who she's been throwing shit at.

regardless, it's my playstyle to be aggressive and say what i think about who, when i think it. it's been a successful tool for me thus far and continues to be successful.

Again, I think this should seriously shut people up about kendall being newbtown. She's not handing herself a newbcard...so why are there people making excuses for her... She knows exactly what she's doing.

by the way, if you would all quit writing me off as a noob and read my content i would greatly appreciate it.
i may be new to this website, but i am in no way new to the game of mafia.

Kendall, I know it sucks when people call you a noob and it may have nothing to do with your playstyle because you've played other places and you know how to play the game- I felt the same way. Problem is that these boards are different, they are in some ways more strict and find other things to be scummy. Outside of the Road to Rome (Newbie Queue) they don't tend to give people a lot of slack. So when I say it's newbie, I mean moreso newbie to the site and to what kind of players you are playing with. I am a newbie too, nothing wrong with it...just the more you learn about mafiascum your playstyle might change- or you'll pick your words better.

Noting.

[Ray Montano]

Cool. But I prefer not to line up lynches.

[Ray Montano]

Well then kendall's being quite inconsistent, yeah?

[Ray Montano]

If paranoia is justified to you find it useful?

[Ray Montano]

What part of the question are you not understanding? I don't see why paranoia can't be useful in getting a read on a player and I don't see why you can't just answer the question. If I'm not clear on what's going to be useful to you then I'm not sure what kind of read I'm supposed to be getting on you.

Unless your goal is to be unreadable...

[Ray Montano]

If you are asking me why I don't think paranoia is useful in reads it is because I think you should have a level of paranoia as town or even as scum in these large games. As town you don't know anyone's alignment, and as scum you don't know how many PRs town have. Paranoia is something that just happens in this game which is part of the reason why day one is full of mislynches.

I can understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with all of it.

Making it a NULL tell, until I have some meta to go off of that suggests otherwise.

That's really what I wanted to hear. Thanks yo.

[Ray Montano]

Any inside info?

I don't like this question. Asked to anyone by anyone.

[Ray Montano]

I just feel questions like that can lead to role fishing.

[Ray Montano]

Ray. Who else is scum?

Dumb question. Don't waste my time.

[Ray Montano]

Cool. But I prefer not to line up lynches.

MGHNH. If someone volunteers to be lynched, it's not lining up lynches. This is a cop-out. A 'I'm not sure what town would do here so I'm going to excuse myself' knee-jerk reaction.

This is stupid. Listening to someone whine about how we all can lynch him if someone else flips scum is stupid.

[Ray Montano]

Answer the question now.

No. When I think I've found scum you'll get my push on them. Also, get over yourself.

[Ray Montano]

Translation: You're not getting what you want so you're resorting to bitching.

[Ray Montano]

it's very odd that you refuse to answer questions. are you hiding something?

I'm not going to answer stupid questions like "Who is scum". If I think I've found scum I'm going to push on them but I'm not going to push scum reads that I only half-ass believe in.

[Ray Montano]

Hiraki: Take note.

If you had to vote *somepony* right now, who would it be. Things along the lines of "I don't know" are not acceptable answers to this question. It's not who do you expect to be voting at the end of the day, but who is your current and subject to change highest scum read.

My vote on kendall right now is sort of a placeholder. I certainly don’t mind her being lynched because I don’t think she’s going to be helpful at all and I don’t find anything she says to be noteworthy, trustworthy, or influential. But I’m enjoying reading both cases of players on her wagon and reactions to those who aren’t. So I’m lubbin’ that vote up right now but here’s who I’m seriously looking at for reads.

diddin
I think diddin’s playing a real nice under the radar game. Which is a tactic at least some of the scumteam have to employ on D1. Especially when there’s so much activity going on with other players. He even mentions it himself that there’s no point in spamming the thread so he’s justifying his under the radar game and making sure to throw suspicion’s out there so he’s at least in it...but not pushing them hard enough to really start a true wagon on. Smart.

DonJosh
I don’t really care if Don’s self-stated meta is accurate or not, but it does give him an out if pressured for not contributing, not starting wagons, and not joining a wagon late to lynch. Statements like that, and then joining a wagon with a half-ass reason, not sitting right with me.

glowball
Players who provide chainsaw defense for any other player, ESPECIALLY if it’s a case on a “newb” raise red flags for me. I don’t take them as genuine, and I’m much more inclined to believe a scum player would do it to make themselves appear more pro-town and become a sort of mother hen type of player (which I find extremely dangerous). Players who flip out in a flip of questioning also raise red flags for me. If the questions are basic and calmly stated without excess pressure then I don’t see the need to freak.

Umbrage
I just think his reasoning for everything is crap and shallow. Nothing he says carries any weight with me because I don’t believe he’s being sincere. His wording is off to me, and the overemphasis on kendall actually being scum is...troublesome.

If I had to rank them on highest likelihood of being scum I’d go diddin, Umbrage, glowball, DonJosh

Eyes also watching: mikehart, Nanook
(I’m not a player to who nerves, but they always make me nervous. Any game I’m in with them I have them in my peripheral vision, more out of respect then suspicion)

[Ray Montano]

Paranoia is justified.

How does paranoia clear a player as town?

Those two things aren't even equivalent. Being paranoid is justified, it doesn't make her town- but that aside I believe kendall is town and I believe her wagon has at least 2 scumz on it.
Now, we should do an exercise for all of you newbies who INSIST on labeling things scummy that are NULL. How about you tell me exactly how that could work in scumz favor.

STARTING WITH
Kendall is playing the newb card, or she isn't- yes she is....blah blah blah
One way or the other how doesn't being newb help scumz? Outside of Road to Rome it really does no good- it's actually more of a death sentence than anything else. It doesn't make a person town either, so....
IT.
IS.
NULL.

Find the motivation in her actions..and then you can push the wagon. From what I see, kendall is probtown....Hiraki's gamble was spot on to you guys, although lining up lynches is never good I get what he means. You guys aren't using the logic that you should all have.

If paranoia is justified to you find it useful?

Okay just stop.

JUSTIFIED PARANOIA =/= TOWN
JUSTIFIED PARANOIA =/= USEFUL

What part of NULL do you not understand? Because I am starting to get annoyed.

Paranoia is not useful in getting a read on any player,IMO, especially this early WHICH IS WHY I SAID

NULL

. Kendall's paranoia is justified BUT IT IS NOT WHY I THINK SHE IS TOWN.

What aren't you getting? If you are asking me why I don't think paranoia is useful in reads it is because I think you should have a level of paranoia as town or even as scum in these large games. As town you don't know anyone's alignment, and as scum you don't know how many PRs town have. Paranoia is something that just happens in this game which is part of the reason why day one is full of mislynches. Now, paranoia isn't helpful- but for some players it is unavoidable. Making it a NULL tell, until I have some meta to go off of that suggests otherwise.

Posts #1 and #3 are over-explanations to simple questions and #2 doesn't come off as genuine to me. To be honest, none of it comes off as genuine to me. All this overemphasis for really...no reason. There are two things that raise flags of guilty parties to me: over-explanation and unnecessary exasperation. And you did both.

[Ray Montano]

@kendall I've been up on your ass since we pretty much started so don't pretend like I just jumped on a wagon because it had the most votes. I've definitely explained why a. I voted for you and b. why I would like to see you lynched. If you're having trouble understanding then you can go dissect my posts until you've figured it out. Which should be...I don't know...three real life days ago. As for why I'm not voting any of my reads yet its because I'm 100% into any of their cases yet but if you'd just shut up and let me forget you exist and how much of a deterrence I think you're going to be it'd be much easier for me to switch over now.

@glowball Another example of insincere posting to me. I don't believe you believe anything of what you just said. You unnecessarily overreacted. Sure it wasn't SensFan scale overreaction but most players are smarter than SensFan and I'm going to assume you are too.

[Ray Montano]

I asked you two questions:

1. Does paranoia clear a player as town?
2. Do you find paranoia useful?

Not the same question and if you find two questions annoying then you apparently are not in for the long haul. You did respond, but to me your responses sucked and I found them scummy. Hence, point of the inquiries.

[Ray Montano]

@kendall See bolded.

I've definitely explained why a. I voted for you

link me to your explanation if it "

exists

"

Post #193

b. why I would like to see you lynched.

yeayeayea, you said you felt i was being

unhelpful

blah blah blah,
but when i asked how / why you felt that way, you have still yet to answer me.
i fail to see why you want me lynched if i'm not even on your scum list.
that's anti-town.

Post #182 #185 #193 all explain how/why I feel your posting is unnecessary and unhelpful. #352 explains why I'm okay with you being lynched.

If you're having trouble understanding then you can go dissect my posts until you've figured it out.

your posts contain no actual how/why content. i want those answers/explanations. i can't dissect

why

you find something unhelpful if you don't explain what i did that was unhelpful and why it was unhelpful.

See above

As for why I'm not voting any of my reads yet its because I'm 100% into any of their cases yet

why are you voting for someone not even on your scumlist, though?
that doesn't make any sense.

See above

@glowball

Paranoia is justified.

How does paranoia clear a player as town?

Those two things aren't even equivalent.

Being paranoid is justified, it doesn't make her town- but that aside I believe kendall is town and I believe her wagon has at least 2 scumz on it.
Now, we should do an exercise for all of you newbies who INSIST on labeling things scummy that are NULL. How about you tell me exactly how that could work in scumz favor.

Now Me saying PARANOIA IS JUSTIFIED, led you to jump over hurdles to say that is why I cleared Kendall as town? Nothing I said inferred that Kendall is town simply because she is paranoid....SO....it's annoying to be misrepresented.

Okay, let's look over the whole quote then.

THE K E N D A L L WAGON IS RIDICULOUS.

It's everything scum would want, and overly aggressive player that is an easy mislynch. There are very few instances on day one that a wagon grows that fast on someone who is scum. k e n d a l l is town. There is scum on that wagon and DonJosh's vote is rubbing me the wrong way...

I would like you to remember that we are here to lynch scum, not rid ourselves of players we don't like. I am not going to let you guys mess up my game because you cannot deal with an over anxious player. Trying to hard to be town? Yeah, I got that feeling too. I also know that mafiascum compared to other sites have different ways of calling someone scum. kendall has adequately defended themselves. It doesn't matter if you are pro-town/anti-town all of that is NULL I just played a game with someone who I wanted to strangle, but he was town and was a major part of our win(perfect win in fact). Scum don't like this much attention, and kendall dealt with their votes way better than Beck who just drifted off and didn't say anything. Most players get more aggressive when the votes start piling on because really who wants to die day 1? We all came to play, we all think we have something to offer. Also, whether you think a player is useful or not is none of my concern. Numbers are numbers, and the more townies we lose the closer they are to winning. I'd keep a town body alive just so that we have those numbers. I find the amount of overconfidence aka arrogance quite annoying. Stop over posting with nonsense. Focus, scum is almost never that easy to catch. Look at the people on the wagon there are at least 2 scum there...

NINJA'D
Paranoia is justified. No one knows who is scum, so arguing and being hostile or paranoid isn't weird its the game- people should stop acting as if we know that they are town.

Are you honestly denying that whole bit as not linking kendall's paranoia with her being a newbtown player? I mean, there is a whole bunch of crap in there that could've just been left out but when you get to the bottom line its really not the outlandish misrepresentation that you're pretending it is.

The typo of "If paranoia is justified to you find it useful?" which should read "If paranoia is justified do you find it useful?" really is not a big deal as we both understood what it was meant to say. Not really sure what you're making a big deal about that for. But you have made it abundantly clear that you do not react well to a couple of simple questions or mild suspicions.

If

When Kendall flips scum we lynch her obvious buddy Rainbow. Two scum down. Oh Umbrage, you've done it again, you handsome devil.

This is a baseless comparison to me. Multiple people have attacked and/or defended kendall for a multitude of reasons. Picking out Rainbow for that one quote is ridiculous.

Question to all Kendall wagoners...
What is more likely of a scum partner in your opinion: bussing, defending, or ignoring?

If kendall were scum in this situation I would say her scum partners would most likely bus.

Name 1 Player that you would NOT be willing to lynch today, and why.

Nanook because I find him to be one of the most reasonable, intelligent, and articulate players both in this game and on the site.

@Flavour A lot of people participate in RVS, I do PVS. Relatively early D1 I identify who I don't believe to be useful further down the game. If something happens and a speedwagon occurs in any sort of absence of mine then at least I know a player who I believed to be anti-town was lynched. Plus I find player's reactions to wagons on anti-town players to be the most helpful and accurate way in determining scum this early in the game. I will switch votes. Probably. But rest assured I'm not going to switch votes just because someone has asked me to. Right now, I'm pursuing which option is best.

I TOTALLY did not see your earlier post directed at me. I usually don't miss things so my bad. I don't disagree that kendall has "attempted" scumhunting (or at least is pretending to do so), but that doesn't mean what she's doing is helpful or accurate. I find it to be neither. Her motivation may be genuine, but that doesn't mean it's right. And I'm not going to treat someone with kid gloves.

As for mikehart/Nanook I just watch players like that like hawks because I know (from experience) they have the ability to manipulate and outplay me. I have a list on my computer of those players (and no I'm not going to share them all in this game).

[Ray Montano]

JUSTIFIED PARANOIA =/= USEFUL

You answered, no confusion, get over it.

Ok, so you must be an alt? ... Care to share your other name?

Not now. They're inactive anyway but maybe once I exhaust this alt I'll share it with you. I've only just started on this one though.

@kendall And I'm not going to re-quote or adjust statements that I made about my reasoning for voting for you. If you don't like them, tough shit. And I did already explain why I'm voting for you rather than a player on my reads. If you aren't reading closely enough then again, tough shit.

[Ray Montano]

Can you name some people you've played with?

Are you talking at me?

you would rather lynch me than someone you specifically listed is most likely to be mafia?

No. Which is why I asked you to shut up so I can forget you exist.

[Ray Montano]

care to accompany that no with an unvote?
you're being stubborn

No kendall because again, I think it would be good for the town for you to be out of the game. I don't think you're helpful, I don't think anything you say goes anywhere significant, I don't think any of your reads are accurate, I don't think you care about the town's win condition, and I don't think you have the foresight to plan past your next post. I support your lynch D1 like I would support a D1 lynch of zwets or Empking or Caboose or SensFan because I don't think you're going to someone good to have in the game when it comes to crunch time. Unlike you I will support more than one lynch on D1 because I'm okay with lynches that will provide anything of use moving on to the next day.

[Ray Montano]

why not?

From now on I'm ignoring everything you ask that's already been answered.

so, for the record
you would rather a townie die than a mafia?

No.

[Ray Montano]

So what are we supposed to do. Let kendall ride through the days and hope a vig gets a kill on her?

[Ray Montano]

Back from V/LA and catching up on the like 8 posts since I was last here. I do have to say this though: kendall is town, and by focusing on her, we're entirely distracting ourselves from catching scum. At this point, scum has to do nothing but sit back and let us drive ourselves into the ground. So let's get off of that, ok?

There have been a lot more discussions between players than just about kendall. Who are you getting scum reads on?

[Ray Montano]

@Ray: see the bottom part of my post where I said that I'm posting more reads tomorrow...

I wasn't going to bank on you "hopefully" getting more reads tomorrow, so I wanted it to be clarified that you will.

[Ray Montano]

I'm switching votes tomorrow. I was going to do earlier but then jmurph posted and I want to get her reads tomorrow first.

[Ray Montano]

I want thoughts on : Snakeside, Glowball, Hiraki, and MikeHard.

I already gave my thoughts on glowball.

I see Snake as being pretty reasonable, asking good questions, and spreading out discussion in a multitude of different ways. I like them so far.

I find Hiraki unintelligent, obnoxious, and generally unhelpful. But his play could be town or scum. Right now I don't see any reason to suspect him as being scum, just rogue town.

When Mike is trying hard he's posting real great content. I'd like to see more from him just because I think his voice is necessary when we've got things like ^^^ that running around.

As for kendall replacing out LUBBIN' IT!

Unvote: Him

so Umbrage or DonJosh are the two leading wagons. My opinion? Both are great choices, so I want someone to tell me why one should be lynched over the other... Meaning: If you want Umbrage lynched, why is he scummier than DonJosh- and if you want DonJosh lynched why is he scummier than Umbrage. I could honestly go either way, although I think Umbrage might be a little more dangerous as scum.

Both were on my list of reads and I'd like to see both go but I'd rather lynch Umbrage over DJ. I think DJ's play in this game is more consistent with just the type of player he is and considering his tendency to flake I think its likely we'll get a replacement who'll be more helpful. He says he's got a big wall coming up but to be honest I have no expectations of him. Although I am interested to see if he carries through. Umbrage IS more dangerous. He's louder and more persistent in his opinions, which don't have much weight to them. His "argument" with Rainbow was just ridiculous. Instead of debating things through he pouts and whines when questioned farther. Umbrage should be lynched.

Vote: Umbrage

Silver also kinda worries me. Definitely not enough to place a vote. I'm not sure why he didn't RVS when everyone else did. He's been questioned several times but hasnt said anything but lol bob is jester he's posting dumb things. It could be just to be funny, but the relativity of any of his posts is zero.

I don't see how we can be 20+ pages in and this is your only real read. Since you did some catching up I'd think reading all that in a short period of time would gather some more reads. Flying under the radar... And speaking of flying under the radar:

In other news, I've commented on who I think is important. If anyone has any specifics they'd like me to address, kindly point it/them out.

Its nice that you commented on the two leading wagons but really that doesn't provide much discussion. There are more persons of interest that have been the discussion of a lot of hot topic but you know, just commenting on Umbrage and DJ is a real great way of keeping yourself out of hot water.

You'll see my game ramp up in D2, that's when I analyze the bandwagons.

Taking note of this...

Unvote
Vote: DonJosh

Logically this first may be somewhat better either way, but my gut still wants Umbrage.

Then why not? What makes DJ a better lynch?

I'd rather not lynch DonJosh yet because of the fact that he possibly flaked, and I wouldn't want to lynch, say, a Town Cop because they couldn't claim before their lynch. Umbrage is a safer choice.

QFT but I'd like to see a better explanation as to why Umbrage is the better choice.

[Ray Montano]

Not butthurt. I'm just very blunt. diddin was my top read 8 pages ago. In case you haven't noticed we're on page 23, game has been played, time has past, and diddin's made some points that I agree with.

[Ray Montano]

One quote that you agreed with.

I've liked everything diddin's said about Umbrage. I'm not going to sit here and go "^^^ LUBBIN' IT!" after every post I agree with. That'd be stupid.

[Ray Montano]

Never said that diddin was a town read, because he's not.

[Ray Montano]

Why's he a scumread again, now that he's active?

He never stopped being on my scum reads. Even though his activity has picked up he's still not pushing Umbrage as hard as his vote would suggest. He's attempting to convince players to vote Umbrage yet really hasn't shown THAT much reasoning behind why. What he has said I've agreed with but he's not being that loud about it.

@Peregrine I think I've made it very clear I would like to see Umbrage hang. Since you've conveniently missed this:

DonJosh
I don’t really care if Don’s self-stated meta is accurate or not, but it does give him an out if pressured for not contributing, not starting wagons, and not joining a wagon late to lynch. Statements like that, and then joining a wagon with a half-ass reason, not sitting right with me.

DJ's a flake and I'm getting more accustomed to his style of play. He's moved down a little bit on my radar because I'm thinking less of his half-assing is a scumtell and more just the way he is as a player.

[Ray Montano]

As I said in the same post, I am more than happy to address any specifics if/when addressed at me. If you're looking for me to list out every single person and give an opinion on them, you're out of luck. Additionally, I also commented on Beefster and why my vote is still there, but I guess you missed that part of my post.

I'm not. Unless there's less than ten people left I would never ask someone to list their reads on everyone. But surely there must be someone to comment on other than the two leading wagons (the majority of everyone else's leads) and your one vote. I don't feel like anyone should have to babysit you and tell you who to comment on either. You honestly have nothing original to say about the 20 other players in this game?

[Ray Montano]

And what in the hell does "dangerous" mean. Call a scum a scum and a town a town.

Don't be ridiculous you know players are more dangerous based on their ability to manipulate and talk their way out of things. DJ =/= Umbrage on terms of threat level.

[Ray Montano]

Ray, why the unvote for Kendall, if you think she is scum then she is scum. So wtf?

1. I would never continue a vote on a replacement on D1. ESPECIALLY if that replacement is a good one.
2. I think I've stated multiple times my vote on kendall was placeholder.

So I don't know where your confusion is coming from, but its misplaced.

[Ray Montano]

@Flavour Yeah you're right. glow what's the deal? Do you just understand now?

[Ray Montano]

Ray, why the unvote for Kendall, if you think she is scum then she is scum. So wtf?

1. I would never continue a vote on a replacement on D1. ESPECIALLY if that replacement is a good one.
2. I think I've stated multiple times my vote on kendall was placeholder.

So I don't know where your confusion is coming from, but its misplaced.

[Ray Montano]

Well since other players were asking when you were going to decide to answer I brought it back up so you can attempt some sort of rebuttal...since it seemed you were confused enough to throw out a wtf.

As for going back and forth please point out when I've straddled on anything. I pushed for kendall and now I'm pushing for Umbrage.

[Ray Montano]

There was nothing to rebut, btw. It was just a question and you answered it- not everything is an attack. You straddled on Kendall, and you distanced yourself too. That is my opinion, no point in really discussing it because you aren't in my top suspects anyway and you definitely aren't my lynch choice for the day.

Flavour was wondering why you didn't respond to it and wanted to see a response, as did I. And I'd like to know who I supposed distanced myself from. Your "opinion" that I was straddling on kendall (which I don't understand how you could've come up with that) is your opinion I suppose.

[Ray Montano]

Answer me this... Why are you so concerned?

Uhhh because you're the one straddling back and forth between wagons. So I'm trying to figure out what other behaviors you're going to shit throw on other players when they're not true and then go and do it yourself.

[Ray Montano]

You just described my play: an advancement of opinion on a player as the game progresses.
And your play: straddling two players to get either lynch.

...

[Ray Montano]

Your play is straddling, and distancing from a lynch, so that you can say "oh well I told you guys that she was town, or I told you that she was scum"

That is completely off base. When I EVER do that you can call me out on it. But don't waste your breath, because that is NOT my style of play and not once did I say that kendall was not scum.

[Ray Montano]

If the vote is always supposed to be on scum then there wouldn't be RVS and strategies such as pressure voting. You're basically attempting to get in a play style debate with me, correct?

And she wasn't an asset to the town. Even if she was town. That's my opinion and I'm going to state it.

[Ray Montano]

Or is it because I've nailed you and DonJosh as scum? Oh, I am right- hey let's try this. Push my lynch, watch my flip and then KILL UMBRAGE AND DONJOSH...it works for me. Also, throw Beck in there too- since neither one of them want to tell me why they think he's town.

This reinforces my read on glowball and perfectly fits in with what I said about her. But I don't think Umbrage came off any better.

For any clarification in case I get any idiotic "but he was your #1 eight pages ago!" Umbrage is my #1 and glow is my #2.

[Ray Montano]

Why is Ray scum?

Lol. Don't want to.

I hope you try to go somewhere fun with this later.

[Ray Montano]

I've got a plan for these minigames. Every day we decide who's the most town. They will be the ONLY PERSON to answer the quiz question, and therefore get the power by default.

Is there one person who you can pick out as 100% town already? I don't want a name, just a yes or no.

[Ray Montano]

Push me.

What's the matter? I mean its not like your case is really that great to begin with. So what's there to push?

[Ray Montano]

I don't want to know what Peregine's power is and I do think it was scummy that he jumped in and took it without saying anything first. But I'm also not sure that he'd be the only player to do so. And I don't believe lynching him for it would stop someone else from doing it next time.

[Ray Montano]

Here's the deal though if we wait until the next mini-game pops up to starting deciding we will be too late. Because someone will start up and grab the power before the group decides. But I also don't think its in our best interest to spend a lot of time arguing about who that person should be. So if we are going to vote on someone then can we just keep a running tally of votes and not argue about it?

Peregine what are you afraid of if the scum know what your power is? If there's a role blocker they'll probably just block you anyway because they know you have something.

[Ray Montano]

Well, right now scum has to worry about what it is. And they can kill me tonight, but I'll get at least one use out of it.
And they can RB me tonight, but that means there not RBing someone else, so I'm OK with that.
They can RB and kill me, but I'm OK with sucking up scum resources for the night.

I actually like this answer.

I thought it was a given to provide reasoning but I think it would be useless to argue with someone over their town read. Which wouldn't surprise me if some players decide to try to pick arguments over it. I just generally don't have faith the majority of the game will be able to follow along with the plan without effing it up. But I would have to choose

Give toy: Rainbow

I find Rainbow to be one of the most reasonable and level-headed players in the game who I think is genuinely scumhunting and generating good discussion.

[Ray Montano]

I think you feel this will distract the town from actual scumhunting, but I feel this can help the town choose the best candidate for receiving an ability that can HELP TOWN. This doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about our suspects at all. Think of it like defending. When someone attacks you, you have to defend and scumhunt at the same time. This means your content has to increase. Same would happen with this. Talking about the plan, and scumhunting. Scumhunting should be the

first priority

, but it's also a good idea to talk about the plan.

Aight, well I do think it will be helpful in providing links between flipped scum and other players later in the game.

[Ray Montano]

Ray hasn't demonstrated an adequate grasp on the game IMO, I don't trust how he might use any gift- we don't know what the gift is and so he could do a lot of damage or just waste the gift if he uses it frivolously

Hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Ray Montano]

I just find it amusing glowball accuses someone else of not having a grasp on the game right after not understanding how the mini-games work.

[Ray Montano]

are you talking about the trivia? because I am saying you don't have a grasp on MAFIA and reasoning.

Hey you're entitled to your opinion. Its whatever.

[Ray Montano]

Apologies I've been away for the weekend. Posting to avoid a prod but within the next two hours I'll have posted my thoughts on everything I've needed to catch up on.

[Ray Montano]

Actually not as much has happened as I thought.

I 100% agree with this:

More often than not- scum deflect like this. Scum will answer questions posed by other scum or even defend scum. Umbrage came to DOnJosh's defense and instead of stating why- he tries pulls the feeler move and deflects the question onto Hiraki. Townies should not be concerned with what anyone else is doing- you don't know anyone's alignment, let alone everyone's thoughts on every player.

glow is being much more reasonable than I thought she was being earlier (except when she loses her shit, which is annoying). My read on her is changing with every post she has in favor of an Umbrage lynch and provides reasoning as to why it makes sense. I don't see Rainbow or Spyrex's points against an Umbrage lynch as being founded.

Sigh its going to be one of these games.

What amount of bribes/poems/heartfelt wellwishes/lashes with a barbed whip will it take to stop the madness and get in a direction. Seriously now I see the edges crumbling and am fully expecting the world to be filled with sadness.

(Ignoring the whining) Control will not happen with this game with the players who are in it. That is why I have no faith in your plan to lynch anyone who grabs a power. Your idea of having a core group is a good idea but the only thing that can last in this game is resiliency, not control. And I'm hating the defeatist attitude you've had in other recent posts.

Note how glowball only started saying I'm scum when I said she was scum. Hm hm hm?

But glow hasn't OMGUSed every player who's pointed suspicion at her. So what makes you such a special case?

[Ray Montano]

@ Ray ... I feel similar to you with going back and forth with where I stand on Glowball. Although I feel that she's making a good point, I guess I'm just hesitant to agree with her. How do you feel about her wanting to flake out of the game because she can't get her way?

I think its really obnoxious and makes me feel less confident in her and her abilities but I don't really think its a tell.

2. Lots of information. More, I would definitely argue, than from Umbrage's, and we'd get a ton of information regardless of his flip. Whether town or scum, it will give us a way to look at who got on his wagon, when, how, what reason they gave, etc, to try and parse who is scum and who isn't. Because make no mistake - I honestly think DJ is scum, but I also honestly think that there are scum on this wagon. And any information regarding his alignment helps us determine who's who.

Do you not think player relations is a better way to find scum off a flip?

[Ray Montano]

Ummm...I would like a reason please as to why you're calling me scum Four.

[Ray Montano]

You realize that Umbrage would have to flip scum first for your argument to be any good.

[Ray Montano]

Again, Fourseen, you realize that Umbrage would have to flip scum first for your argument to be any good. And if Umbrage and I are scum together why are you voting DJ and not either of us?

[Ray Montano]

It is all in the plans.

Okay great. Noted.

[Ray Montano]

The other bolds aren't as bad, but they're scum.

This is stupid.

[Ray Montano]

Funny.

Not funny. You're going to be awful for town players in this game.

[Ray Montano]

Explain how its a slip Hiraki. A slip would be stating "You're going to be awful for THE town players in the game".

[Ray Montano]

That's not a statement that would exclude myself. This is why you're going to be harmful. You don't have common sense or deductive reasoning.

[Ray Montano]

lol That was probably the whiniest, most spineless thing I've seen in all my time on this site.

[Ray Montano]

This is why you have XX alts.

lol That was also stupid.

[Ray Montano]

How so Rainbow? Exactly what will that accomplish?

[Ray Montano]

Really Rainbow. You honestly believe lynching me will stop other players from being unpleasant?

Decent lynch...meh. I doubt you'll get many good reads off players who've supported or worked against a wagon on me. If you'd like to point out some examples from thus far in the game then sure. But until then, baseless. As for keeping players you have a solid read on, I'm not sure how you could be struggling get a read on me. Is there something you need from me to get a better read?

[Ray Montano]

Let's break this down Rainbow.

Your reasons to lynch me.
1. Stop players from being unpleasant.
Go quote where I've attacked Hiraki as a person. I've attacked Hiraki's posting a bunch of times. Do I think his posts are stupid? Yes. Is that me calling Hiraki stupid? No. Get it straight. Or lynch Hiraki for using personal attacks and actually attacking a player's character over play style. But you can't have it both ways. You're being a hypocrite.
2. Decent lynch.
I can only assume you mean you'll be able to get reads off other players based on a lynch of myself (because really that statement has nothing of substance in it). If that's true then go point out examples of players who have pushed my lynch or pushed against it and explain how you can get a read off them based on their interactions with a lynch on me.
3. Keeps players you have a solid read on in the game.
To be honest, its really your fault if you don't have a read on me. If there's something you're missing from me that's prohibiting you from getting a read then its your job to ask me questions to get more insight into my play. I'm not a mindreader and my mission in this game is not to please you. So if you don't push me for information that you want you're not going to get it.

[Ray Montano]

I can't stand one more fucking second of this piece of shit downtalking me.

And for the record, while not personally offensive to me, I think this post makes it clear the level of stability Hiraki is going to be able to provide in this game.

[Ray Montano]

Does that mean you agree with this Rainbow?

Let's break this down Rainbow.

Your reasons to lynch me.
1. Stop players from being unpleasant.
Go quote where I've attacked Hiraki as a person. I've attacked Hiraki's posting a bunch of times. Do I think his posts are stupid? Yes. Is that me calling Hiraki stupid? No. Get it straight. Or lynch Hiraki for using personal attacks and actually attacking a player's character over play style. But you can't have it both ways. You're being a hypocrite.
2. Decent lynch.
I can only assume you mean you'll be able to get reads off other players based on a lynch of myself (because really that statement has nothing of substance in it). If that's true then go point out examples of players who have pushed my lynch or pushed against it and explain how you can get a read off them based on their interactions with a lynch on me.
3. Keeps players you have a solid read on in the game.
To be honest, its really your fault if you don't have a read on me. If there's something you're missing from me that's prohibiting you from getting a read then its your job to ask me questions to get more insight into my play. I'm not a mindreader and my mission in this game is not to please you. So if you don't push me for information that you want you're not going to get it.

[Ray Montano]

Nope, you still are on the tail end of the short list. Just isn't the time to get into this type of arguement.

Because you can't logically prove your points? I've posted a reasonable defense, there's no real reason for you to not respond.

[Ray Montano]

So then what's the issue? I'm voting Umbrage, you're voting Umbrage, what's the problem? Its ridiculous that you would attack a player and then refuse to respond to their defense. Especially when its not an unreasonable, OMGUSy, piss-poor reaction defense. So either you can't defend your attack because its crap and you know it, or you're attempting to backtrack on it because its raising attention you did not want.

[Ray Montano]

UNVOTE: ,VOTE: Umbrage.

For the record Umbrage is not even close to the top of my scumreads, but at this point I just want this day to end

so damn badly

. I would also consider a lynch on Fourseen, since his whole random "What do people think of me" post seems incredibly bizarre, ill-timed, and scummy as all get out.

So basically if Umbrage flips scum you're not to blame because you didn't suspect him.

@Rainbow Really? I suggest you go back and see who called the other a "blundering idiot", myself or Hiraki. My tone towards Hiraki was dismissive at worst, Hiraki's was offensive at best. You have either not read the game closely enough or are twisting history to benefit your case on me. And I wouldn't be so quick to state I'm "defusing this attack" because really you haven't offered an attack that's comprehensible enough for me to defuse. There's nothing you've stated over than the three points that I've dissected to lead to me being your #5 scum pick.

And if that's really what you meant by your third point...then there's really nothing I've got to say about that other than I don't think its genuine.

[Ray Montano]

Oh I know its just amusing. Classic jmurph. Glad to see she hasn't changed *rolls eyes*.

[Ray Montano]

Um...no? Pretty much the opposite, actually. More like I'm not to blame if he flips

town

, but as I said in my post here, I'm willing to lynch whomever majority of the town agrees on because I very much don't want us driving ourselves apart any more than we already have.

Whoaaa yeah. My apologies. That's obviously what I meant to say. Not sure I agree with your strategy but letting it rest for now. And yes we have played together.

Unvote: Umbrage

I can see points on Rainbow but that was a crap ISO post in my opinion. Reading through a couple of players then I'll reapply my vote.

[Ray Montano]

Beefster’s “system” for passing out scum/town ++ really aggravated me. It seemed like an easy out to plaster a vote on a case he didn’t really believe in because they’d racked up X amount of scum points. I think his case on kendall was crap and opportunistic. It also comes off as forced to me. An easy bandwagon vote and the constant piggybacking of other players’ opinions on kendall was scummy as hell. If kendall had somehow been lynched and flipped town its an easy out for beefster to point at X and X player because they were the ones who originally wrote his opinions. The constant whining to not push him hard because he’s busy bugs me. Its basically a plea to not apply pressure on him. I also don’t like his case on Flavour. Its really not based in anything concrete, just “start scumhunting”. Cases like that are always pushed by players who don’t have anything else to go off. And the opening he leaves to vote either Umbrage or glowball without really giving reasons on either is scummy.

I'm unsure about both Umbrage and glowball:
-Leaning scum on Umbrage
-Leaning scum (more) on glowball
-Likely of different factions.
-Not necessarily both scum.
-I'm fairly sure at least one of them is scum.
Sure it looks a bit wishy-washy, but isn't that the definition of "unsure?"

Until this:

Gut says Umbrage is town. Just look at the general nature of his posts.

Why is DonJosh bad, exactly? From the looks of it, it seems like his wagon is on him for lurking. (Which isn't a scumtell)

And then piggybacked on Hiraki’s reasoning for DJ being town, which is this gem.

Is that the new fad? He's lurking?

Give me a break. I've done that as scum and town.

It's called stress and "lol i anit dealing with this shit until i'm prodded"

I don’t find Beefster to be consistent. The flip-flopping and piggybacking and quick vote switches raise flags for me. The only thing I really find to be redeeming is his press on Rainbow. But even that is shoddy.

Vote: Beefster

[Ray Montano]

Well Rainbow, now that Umbrage has claimed I'd love to see your response to his claim and this please VVV

@Rainbow Really? I suggest you go back and see who called the other a "blundering idiot", myself or Hiraki. My tone towards Hiraki was dismissive at worst, Hiraki's was offensive at best. You have either not read the game closely enough or are twisting history to benefit your case on me. And I wouldn't be so quick to state I'm "defusing this attack" because really you haven't offered an attack that's comprehensible enough for me to defuse. There's nothing you've stated over than the three points that I've dissected to lead to me being your #5 scum pick.

And if that's really what you meant by your third point...then there's really nothing I've got to say about that other than I don't think its genuine.

[Ray Montano]

I want Umbrage to claim flavor of that role considering Bo Peep = watcher makes no sense.

1. I don't see how that doesn't make sense?
2. But I am interested in Umbrage doing that.

Umbrage is not the watcher.

From a player who says nothing I don't know what to make of this.

[Ray Montano]

I need to work out first and then I'll post later. But I am here and sort of read through. I need time to completely gather my thoughts.

[Ray Montano]

@Fourseen I don't understand why you have lynches lined up if you're going to skip players.

I think Nanook was hoping NOT to get a CC since Umbrage was his Godfather. He says the reason for that was because "Umbrage may have been full of fluff" SO? Second underlined statement, he states Bopeep was a town player unless hinted otherwise. Therefore, he supported Umbrage's fake claim openly. (In a fence sitty manner)

I 100% agree with this case. Very nice Flavour. And I would like for Nanook to address this case please and not the lurking case because this is what I find damning about him...not the lurking case bullshit.

Vote: Nanook

Ray Montano

: Why did you push for Beefster so late YeSterday?

At the time I liked my read on Beefster and I actually believed Umbrage's claim.

Can I just put it out there that if there is a trivia question today, then I will be competing for it. Kay?

I hate this. Also Flavour and I are now asking you the same question. Answer us please.

[Ray Montano]

Counter claim. What I don't understand is exactly what Flavour pointed out:

I don't know if I support another player counter claiming this early in the game either just in case Umbrage is full of fluff

What is the benefit of this?

[Ray Montano]

I found the quote. All I meant by that was since it was day one and Umbrage may have fake claimed, I didn't want another player to come out and state ... Hey, I'm BoPeep with this great valuable pro town power, while Umbrage in turn outs a pro town power role. I guess mafia godfather for a pro town role isn't a bad idea now that I look back. I just didn't want a powerful townie (doc, cop, and blocker for example) to be exposed if Umbrage was just full of fluff. Glowball only claimed bopeep ... never an ability. So from my standpoint during the time ... it worked out. Had glowball not mentioned lying about the claim today, then I'd probably be supporting Glowball at this time.

But if it was a fake claim then we wouldn't have known if Bo Peep actually was a power role, and probably wouldn't be. Although I can understand Bo Peep being a watcher I much more see it as a vanilla role. So you assuming Bo Peep would be the same role on Umbrage's fake claim doesn't make sense to me.

[Ray Montano]

The three people I listed don't have to go in an specific order the arrows are just to link them together. Although, I'd like for a DJ lynch first, I think it is neccesary at this time for a FA lynch. This is based off new concealed information.

I think you're bullshitting, you don't have any concealed information. All you've done this entire game is throw out reads with nothing to back them up. You've done nothing and you've said nothing.

[Ray Montano]

Again, Fourseen has no concealed information. He knows nothing.

[Ray Montano]

I think you have absolutely nothing to back up any of your reads. Oh wait. That's not a thought. That's a fact since you HAVEN'T provided anything to back up any of your reads.

[Ray Montano]

So you think he is lying?

Yeah I think he's bluffing.

[Ray Montano]

Fourseen who did you target and why?

[Ray Montano]

I know farside may be ready to 100% back a player who states things like this:

Well I certainly agree with the wagon, I'd be darned to not be apart of it!

unvote. vote: DonJosh

Well Ray..... is scum. and DonJosh is DonJosh.

you and umbrage must die. Before we can win this game.

You Ray are scum and you know it just look at he argument that umbrage put up obvious distancing, you flavour are controlling and trying to monitor damage control and pushing the town in certain directions.

I don't believe MB53 is scum, he is playing like he is newbtown. Glowball however; I find him to be more of a third party role.

unvote. vote: umbrage

And then claims this:

Umbrage is not the watcher.

But I think its bullshit.

[Ray Montano]

Okay you know what I actually believe that. It makes perfect sense to me that you would decide to visit a player for reasons that were in your personal interest and not necessarily the town's. Because I think you throwing out statements like I quoted above without any backing is also not necessarily in the town's best interest. I wish I didn't have to push you so hard to get information I can read off you but hey, whatever.

glowball what do you think is more likely: a scum kill on soda or a scum kill on bogre?

Vote: Flavour

diddin I'm pretty sure the mod stated there wasn't going to be a minigame every day but three minigames spread out across the game. Isn't that right?

However I'm having a hard time understanding why (if your saying fourseen scum, which I assume at this point) he would CC a claim from scum like that. Town cred? I mean really the question he asked from people doesn't really scream scum to me. It reminds me of a few LOL players who don't really think......well lets call them fluffsters that are null. I have personally been back and forth on my reads with Fourseen but the watcher CC as scum is really hard to believe that coming from scum.

I have no idea what Fourseen has been thinking this entire game. Mainly because he hasn't posted "thoughts" on anything. I needed to see something from him in order to see if he was being genuine or not.

[Ray Montano]

Yeah I think Soda got vigged. And I want to wait to see if there is a minigame today.

Alright I'm okay with that. What makes you think soda appeared less pro-town than bogre?

[Ray Montano]

So wait. You're a 1 shot vigilante who can only shoot once and you picked N1?

[Ray Montano]

VigBait
Fourseen

Even though he's pretty much confirmed watcher?

I'm not sure how I feel about Flavour picking N1 to use his 1 shot. I'm not reeeally buying it but I don't know. I'd like to hear some other player's thoughts on how to deal with him. And I would've thought Woody to be a cop also.

[Ray Montano]

Fourseen is a liability and if the vig has no other scum leads- get rid of Fourseen, he definitely shouldn't end game I don't trust that style of play and I am sure some people would say the same about me.

...I disagree. Fourseen's actually talking now and I'm much more appreciative of his play now then it was yesterday and earlier today. And we need him to survive nights as long as possible in this game to get more info. Now that he's outed it doesn't matter anymore. If the vig has already been outed then (theoretically) there are no more pro-town killing roles for him to out.

Glowball: We both agreed on using it early. We both didn't want to draw a nk early because we were a PR. Try to think in our POV's for a sec. We want to catch scum. But we don't want to die early and let our vig go to waste. So I don't see why using it N1 is out of place.

Because you used it on a player who would benefit YOU to use it on. I don't believe soda was a good vig choice at all, except for maybe you personally because there really wasn't much heat on soda from anyone else. It would make sense for you (as scum) to kill him in that scenario.

[Ray Montano]

Rainbow's reads/words/alliance mean nothing to me. If I'm to be expected to follow him then I'm going to need a crap ton more than "do this and do that". And I've played with Spyrex when he replaced in, ran the town, and won the game for us but he did it with a hell of a lot more reasoning than he's doing in this game. What's the deal. Mafiascum run you down these past two years?

Flavour why would you not take your shot on Nanook? You had a pretty solid case against him all prepared today.

[Ray Montano]

Damn you Ray I think I just noticed that the majority of the so called shots that FA intended (I think accept Mb53) attacked FA.

Which pretty much confirmed Flavour acted in self-interest and not in the best interest for the town.

We aren't lynching FA since that kill was really really really likely to come from town.

I think that's crap and I don't think you're reading the game.

Ray

: I don't think you really have room to talk because I had no other suggestions (Who do you think is scum again?). Sure Spy said DJ but I have not seen that uttered after PJ replaced in.

Because I thought Soda was scum. I moved on, and am pressuring Nanook. Not ONLY am I suggesting Nanook is scum, but I also am doling out possibilities of Glow/Peregine being scum.

I also didn't like Soda not being able to explain his town read on MB53. Usually when I see someone 'making a connection' I go for the person making the connection first.

Let's be real here, that case on soda was shaky at best while that case on Nanook was pretty dead on. I think its really really strange that you would pick soda over Nanook unless you were acting solely in personal interest.

[Ray Montano]

Flavour. Let's be real here, that case on soda was shaky at best while that case on Nanook was pretty dead on. I think its really really strange that you would pick soda over Nanook unless you were acting solely in personal interest. And it pretty much confirms for me that you acted in self-interest and not in the best interest for the town. Right?

Unless a second full vig claims, I am 100% sure FA is not mafia, and that transcendes mod meta of making extreme core characters town. This is not an exaggeration at all.

Like a lot of what you say I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.

[Ray Montano]

Alright well unless something else exciting happens tonight I'll be back tomorrow night. I'd like to see EVERYONE who hasn't commented tonight to run down all their thoughts on pretty much every player who has interacted tonight (myself, Flavour, Rainbow, farside, Spyrex, glowball, Fourseen, Nanook, diddin).

Unvote

[Ray Montano]

glowball I'd like to know what your read on Peregrine is and why you support a jmurph or beefster wagon.

[Ray Montano]

Now I'm really confused.

[Ray Montano]

Deathnote..... you dont cc a cleared watcher who obviously made up his character name..... My actual character is cymbol-banging mokey from Toy Story 3

That was a terrible, terrible move. Lenny was clearly most likely to be a town character and a town player would counter-claim that name because it could lead to you being a mafia watcher. Especially considering the monkey is a bad character in the film.

Now I said FC and I'll hammer with extreme prejudice. However, I want to be clear. Reading this over and over I keep going "this is going to be stupid, stupid town play."

Why? What's the alternative?

I am a bored vanilla townie...... and my real character is spider baby.

...This has got to be a joke.

On another note... I start school again tomorrow. Which means I can't stalk the thread waiting for the minigame. Which means anyone who takes the power from me is SCUM.

*Unrelated note: HAHA sucks to suck high schooler* Also I doubt you'll end up getting the power. There would be no reason for players like Fourseen to not take it so I expect some random player to end up with the power and you all to look like idiots.

Vote: Fourseen

I actually do believe the watcher claim. I cannot see how he could possibly randomly guess Flavour's night move correctly without knowing. The lenny counter-claim leads me to believe he's a scum watcher. This day has been more confusion than its worth.

[Ray Montano]

For that little "alliance" I think it'd be dumb for you to pick out just diddin and allow him to get the prize. Since he's already admitted at times he's going to be off cause of school why don't you make it so any of you can get the prize? I feel like that'd be much more intelligent.

And for the record I don't care if Fourseen is lynched at any time (despite what Rainbow has to say about it). Get rid of it.

[Ray Montano]

You have absolutely no idea what you're doing in this game and throwing shit at anyone and everyone you can to save yourself. Keep flailing.

[Ray Montano]

Oversoul and chkflip for me. Something seems.. Off. About them.

Why are you just spitting back out what other players are saying without original content?

I like a Nanook wagon but I'm going to hold off for now.

[Ray Montano]

NtW gets a pass based on a few things I have recently noticed, there would have needed to be siginificant scum gambling and perfect town PR play to have him make good sense as scum.

Read as: "I have no good reason to give Nanook a pass but because the popularity of his wagon seems to be waning towards a lurker I'm hopping off".

Like I said yesterday, I want there on be pressure on him. Today, since there were not many votes yet, I decided to help apply some of that pressure.

If you thought you had something good going on him yesterday then you should have spoken up about it, right? That would of course be the pro-town thing to do.

Vote: Jakalope

[Ray Montano]

Yeah. OKAY Rainbow.

My guess is you'll just wait until everybody forgets so you don't have to "explain".

[Ray Montano]

Okay back. Catching up right now.

[Ray Montano]

Okay wow the neighbor claim is interesting. I don't see any reason not to believe it but I would like, at some point, for one of the neighbors to die and flip. Preferably off an undirected vig shot. I'm still solid on my vote and I don't see any reason to change it. Of course I'm open to any questions though.

[Ray Montano]

My apologies I'll be posting tonight after training.

[Ray Montano]

Also just so no one's confused I'm in Beijing so tonight is about six hours from now. Post with actual content coming then!