[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[izakthegoomba]

1) I don't see how introducing VTs would help. The only people who will fakeclaim Doc is the scum, so the same breaking strategy could still be worked. And I dislike that the outcome of that setup could be random.

2) Does that not ruin the spirit of the setup WAY more than an RB would? It's supposed to have crazy night phases, and a big part of that is achieved by giving everyone a power.

I think if this setup is to be fixed AND remain a fun, crazy setup to play, adding another scum PR, probably an RB, is the only way to do it.

[izakthegoomba]

Oh, and just reposting my suggestion here:

Mayo SuperScum

1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Goon

1 Bulletproof Serial Killer

2 Compulsive Vigilantes
6 Doctors

• Daystart
• Each Doctor protects against a single nightkill
• Nobody can target themselves
• If a Compulsive Vigilante fails to submit a nightkill, they will target a random player

other than themselves

• Kill flavours are not distinguished

[izakthegoomba]

I think I prefer that Docblocker idea, in place of the Roleblocker I put in.

[izakthegoomba]

Where is this thread on C9++ anyway?

[izakthegoomba]

Thanks Quar!

[izakthegoomba]

How is it that 2:10 being horribly unbalanced has gone unnoticed for so long?

[izakthegoomba]

What is a balanced mountainous then?

Is there any point in having mountainous games on the list? Very few mods will want to run them, and not many players will want to play them.

[izakthegoomba]

What counts as an "experienced mod"?

[izakthegoomba]

Oh good.

[izakthegoomba]

And they're even worse as Town PRs. And SEs and ICs are likely more use to scum than town.

Which is, IMO, where the Newbie setup balance issue stems from.

[izakthegoomba]

PGO?

[izakthegoomba]

But what's a PGO?

[izakthegoomba]

Oh, right. I knew what one was, I just didn't recognise the abbreviation.

[izakthegoomba]

Looks like it should work. IMO scum don't need a PR in that kind of game.

[izakthegoomba]

Isn't picking simplicity town/SK sided? There's nothing to stop town playing follow the cop, putting the mafia at a huge disadvantage.

A quick and easy solution:

4 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer

(Immune to Investigation OR Roleblocking)

1 Cop
1 Jailkeeper
13 Townies

• Day start
• Serial Killer chooses their immunity upon confirming

[izakthegoomba]

Good points, how about this:

1 Godfather
3 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer

(immune to kills OR investigation)

1 Cop
1 Jailkeeper
13 Townies

• Day start
• Serial Killer chooses their immunity upon confirming

A couple of other questions:

How does the SK flip? Just as "serial killer", or with the chosen immunity? I prefer the former.

Does the Godfather have some kind of immunity? Also, if he dies, I guess just any scum can kill?

[izakthegoomba]

So you mean,

1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia DocBlocker
1 Mafia Goon

1 Compulsive Bulletproof Serial Killer

2 Compulsive Vigilantes
6 Doctors

[izakthegoomba]

As far as I can tell my suggestion makes it work, but I'd be a bit sad if I was the single Mafia Goon.

[izakthegoomba]

Yeah, AitP has to go. So long as the town is sensible, you may as well roll dice to see who wins.

[izakthegoomba]

Also, on Picking Simplicity:

As we're talking about Godfathers in the Inv-Immune sense, I think having two ways to give the Cop a false result (Godfather and potentially Inv-Immune SK) is too many for a setup which prides itself on being simple. Four Goons is probably enough to deal with the other factions; if not, give them a Rolecop or RB or something.

[izakthegoomba]

A much better way in general is to replace the Doc that would be following the Cop with a Jailkeeper. And an SK is an anti-town role, so an innocent result on one IS a false result, regardless of what the Cop might want.

Does anyone have a problem with this?

4 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer

(1-shot BP OR Inv-immune)

1 Cop
1 Jailkeeper
13 Townies

• Daystart
• Serial Killer chooses to be either 1-shot Bulletproof or Investigation-immune during the pregame
• The Serial Killer's chosen power is not revealed on death

[izakthegoomba]

JK is unlikely to be much use investigating. There's five scum, and even when the JK hits one, there's a good chance that one wasn't killing that night. It's not worth the risk of accidentally stopping a cross-kill.

A Jailkeeper is a bit weaker than a Doctor. It's main function is to prevent Follow the Cop; sure, the Cop can claim and ask to be followed but if the JK does so, the Cop is just a BP Townie.

So I think it's pretty balanced. Maybe I'll do an EV if I get time.

callforjudgement, are you an alt? Or did you play elsewhere or something?

[izakthegoomba]

But if SK and Town team up and beat the Mafia, what happens next? Happily ever after?

[izakthegoomba]

So, no SK in their right mind would team up with the town.

[izakthegoomba]

2) Yes, but scum would never come to an agreement to both shoot the Townie. If they wanted the draw, they'd lynch the Townie then cross-kill.
3) Why?

[izakthegoomba]

2) well, I guess it depends on the situation and the players.

[izakthegoomba]

Uh... bump?

[izakthegoomba]

Maybe you're right. People talk about how it's hard to win as SK, but I've not seen anyone do much about it.

I suggest we take the other common preventative for Follow the Cop - leave the doc in, but add a Mafia Roleblocker. A good SK wouldn't be likely to get roleblocked. A bad SK doesn't deserve to win anyway. Still give the choice between 1-shot BP and Investigation Immunity.

[izakthegoomba]

@pops that's a pretty good idea, as a claimed cop will die very quickly, encouraging him/her only to claim when it's critical to the game.

@Albert why? What's wrong with it?

[izakthegoomba]

With two kills in the game, plus the scum having no incentive to kill the SK, will make follow the cop much harder to use. Chances are either the Cop or the Doctor will die before the SK, and even if they don't, the town is unlikely to get more than a couple of days of Follow the Cop. I like this idea.

[izakthegoomba]

Oh, I missed that. Yeah, it should be 1-shot BP or Inv-immune.

The daykill thing prevents the cop from claiming early. When the cop knows there's a daykill out there and the doc will be powerless to protect him, he won't claim until he's caught some scum, or got enough confirmed innocents that are still alive to make it worthwhile. Also, the scum will want to find, but not kill, the SK, because it would leave them open to Follow the Cop. They need to hunt the PRs first.

[izakthegoomba]

What we have is a very simple, yet broken, setup. So we have to sacrifice a little simplicity. I'm with Hoopla, it's the most clutter-free option. It only effects ONE possible night action, and can't hurt the SK.

Hoopla, I assume the SK still gets to choose 1-shot BP or Inv-immune?

[izakthegoomba]

So, pending Albert telling us what's so bad about a 20P open game, that one looks fixed to me. Let's see what else we have...

[izakthegoomba]

Yes, I think so too. But I can't see any other solution that doesn't.

[izakthegoomba]

Oh, another thing about C9++ that I don't think we covered.

If a 1-shot role gets blocked, is their shot spent?

[izakthegoomba]

Sooooo...

Is this dead or what?

[izakthegoomba]

I'm thinking of some kind of must-lynch adaption, but it doesn't fix the issue of the scum dying first. Paris should probably be binned.

I have no idea about tread carefully. It should probably be changed so that the same goon can't kill twice in a night. And possibly make it 13p somehow?

[izakthegoomba]

I'd play it as an experiment.

[izakthegoomba]

Alternatively, you could give scum an x-shot daykill?

Factional?

[izakthegoomba]

...seriously?

[izakthegoomba]

So the mafia and the SK form a kind of XOR gate for the PRs?

That's practically bastard... I love it!

[izakthegoomba]

No, that would make 2:11 really shitty to play. If the ideal strategy for a game is to not play the game, then your game sucks.

So, in other words, 2:11 Mountainous sucks. Which we already knew...