[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[BBmolla]

Mayo Clinic is broken as proven in Open 329.

The breaking strategy is explained here.

Izak made a suggestion to include a role blocker, but I'm unsure if that will ruin the spirit of the setup.

The main issue is that massclaim allows vigs to be protected and docs to just train on each other. Thus, the goons and SK get screwed.

A possibility I thought up was instead of having six docs, have 1-3 blues and 3-5 docs.
So:
1 VT and 5 Docs
2 VT and 4 Docs
3 VT and 3 Docs

This would prevent doc train unless all VTs die. The issue with this is the amount of deaths will be increased significantly.

Perhaps make those VTs into 1-Shot Vested VTs and give one of the mafia a 1-Shot Vest?

Thoughts?

[BBmolla]

Mayo Clinic is broken as proven in Open 329.

The breaking strategy is explained here.

Izak made a suggestion to include a role blocker, but I'm unsure if that will ruin the spirit of the setup.

The main issue is that massclaim allows vigs to be protected and docs to just train on each other. Thus, the goons and SK get screwed.

A possibility I thought up was instead of having six docs, have 1-3 blues and 3-5 docs.
So:
1 VT and 5 Docs
2 VT and 4 Docs
3 VT and 3 Docs

This would prevent doc train unless all VTs die. The issue with this is the amount of deaths will be increased significantly.

Perhaps make those VTs into 1-Shot Vested VTs and give one of the mafia a 1-Shot Vest?

Thoughts?

Bringing this back up because it's relevent now. Mayo is broken and needs adjusting.

EDIT: It may not be 100% broken, but mass claiming is a viable strategy, so something needs to be changed.

[BBmolla]

I was gonna argue, but actually, yeah that fixes it for the most part. At least until he dies.

My only concern with changing one role is that it fixes the breaking strategy unless they get lynched/killed d1.

Maybe add a Macho Doctor as well. Or even make one of the Vigs Macho.

[BBmolla]

Can we look at the newer open setups that have been tested and discuss them?

I keep seeing new ones popping up on the wiki and would like to discuss them.

[BBmolla]

...I'll be more specific.

I've been roaming around the wiki lately,

On a tangent from setups themselves, navigating this thing is so wierd. So you start at Open Setups, which has four subcategories:

• Category:Approved Open Setups
  
• Category:Historical Open Setups
  
• Category:Semi-Open Setups
  
• Category:Setups Outside Rotation

[BBmolla]

Yeah I was thinking something along those lines. Problem with what you suggested is that if day one a cop claims and a doc claims, then you have the unclaimed doc protect the claimed doc and the claimed doc protect the Cop.

I think something like this would be fun:

Hope Plus 1

13 Players:

3 Mafia Goons

7 Vanilla Townies
2 Macho Doctors
1 Cop

• Daystart
  
• If both Doctors target a player, the protection will fail.
  
• If one Doctor dies, the Cop becomes Macho.

However, I know the intention of the original setup was to avoid using the Macho modifier. I just think the original setup, despite accomplishing what it sought to accomplish, is a bad setup due to random swinginess.

[BBmolla]

Please yes.

[BBmolla]

Olympus setup:

13 players

10 town-aligned Dreaming Gods
3 scum Dreaming Gods

Each player gets the names of 10 abilities and is not told what they do. They can choose one ability and one target each night.


I won't even pretend it's not swingy as hell.

Probably the best setup ever

[BBmolla]

I mean the setup is kind of swingy to balance completely by nature of it being super semi open but here

Does PGO need to be activated?

Are all abilities one shot?

If so, does Kidnapper get used up if used one night and the JOAT doesn't die?

What are you attempting to accomplish with this setup?

If mafia could choose Town JOAT's abilities, which ones would they choose?

[BBmolla]

No worries it's chill

[BBmolla]

Lemme think a bit.

[BBmolla]

Post it g money

[BBmolla]

Half the game is scum, the day phase is going to be shit.

Gunsmith gets guilties on all mafia? With 9 mafia and false positives, he seems pretty damned pointless.

[BBmolla]

Forest Fire by Micc
Modern Trio by Cogito Ergo Sum
Grey Flag by callforjudgement
Shortnight by BBmolla
09:12 by Bicephalous Bob
11P Multiball by shos
Sharing is Caring by BBmolla
Law, Order and Shallow Relationships by Bicephalous Bob
Kill all Townies by BBmolla

Gonna look at all these setups.

I think Elemental Large is also really bleh.

[BBmolla]

Like, Elemental Large seems to be strategic at first, but in my opinion it's just super luck based, all depends if you choose A, B, or C and you can lose the game if you choose incorrectly.

I'd be upset if I lost the entire game just because I chose to protect with Fire instead of Water or whatever. Super bleh imo.

[BBmolla]

Open Setups can use anything.

So no, it doesn't have to be normal.

[BBmolla]

Yeah do imo

[BBmolla]

As a small note, you may want to say Vanilla Townie just to go with the site standard.

[BBmolla]

Kill All Townies is pretty broken in my opinion. The scum Docs being able to protect the cops is janky.

I'd say make the Docs loyal (action only works on own team), but maybe just get rid of them altogether. It'll give more incentive for scum to kill each other, because they'll lose if they target town. Might need to add 2-3 more townies. Or the setup is hopeless. No idea, but it should be worked a bit.

Hope Plus One the mafia need a 1-shot factional watch to prevent breaking strategy of town lucking out and having one doc protect cop correctly. I was in a game where it happened and it's absurd. Giving the mafia a 1-shot factional watch isn't too ridiculous for them, it shouldn't affect balance that much.

[BBmolla]

I just think it's a janky unneeded interaction personally

[BBmolla]

Do you actually believe protecting opposing teams cop is a good thing?

And in that case, do you see reason for town not to claim cop and seer right out?

[BBmolla]

It's possible I'm over reacting

[BBmolla]

I think it's multiball aspect makes it too swingy. Don't think there's a way to fix it.

[BBmolla]

What setups are in rotation?

[BBmolla]

So it's 6 town trying to lose vs 2 jesters who are on a team. I'd play, but I'm not sure it would be popular and some might not consider it mafia at all.

Except not at all.

The goal is still to appear towniest. So it doesn't change how you play. You're just lynching towniest instead of lynching scummiest.

[BBmolla]

Variable Cop = Rolecop for site consistency sake.

Most effective strategy would be to direct the Town Poisoner I think

Do Mafia have a factional nightkill or is the poisoner their only nightkill?

[BBmolla]

Making one of the Mafia a Traitor would make me more comfortable with the setup I think.

[BBmolla]

Making one of the Mafia a Traitor would make me more comfortable with the setup I think.

I'm not very familiar with how traitors (lone wolf in my vernacular) help adjust balance of a game. I assume it makes the mafia faction weaker, but I'm not quite sure I understand how it does so to the point of being impactful to balance.

At surface level it just seems as though it's more difficult for mafia to influence thread narrative, as they are 3 voices who can coordinate together, rather than 4 voices who can coordinate together.
As a counter-point, I think it is a slight pro for the mafia if/when that traitor dies. Town cannot read their 'spew' for indications on who teammates are, because they didn't know who their teammates were. There is also the chance that they can incorrectly vote a partner that they don't know.

Any theory insight would be greatly appreciated.

I was assuming a traitor by normal guidelines which is different than what you stated.

In general, a Traitor is a halfway point between 3 mafia and 4 mafia. In this case 3 is too weak and 4 seems a little strong. Also, the chance that the mafia could be night killing/poisoning the traitor will make them hesitate more with their decisions in both those regards which I think adds a nice layer.

Just my opinion though.

[BBmolla]

I'll put it this way: If the Poisoner didn't exist, the setup would be fine with 4 mafia. Having two potential kills is enormous.

To give some perspective, I ran this setup with the mafia having two kills. It was 2:12 and the mafia sweeped. A couple different factors with it being closed and only 2 members of the mafia, but I still think 4 mafia at 17p with 1 1/2 kills (whatever it works out to) is too much.

[BBmolla]

Looks fine to me.

No lynching is disallowed correct?

[BBmolla]

Paris Mafia recently ended in a draw with 1 mime, 1 mafia, 1 townie. This should either be a Mafia or Mime win, it sucks as a draw. I'm leaning Mime just because I think winning as Mime is hard in that setup.

It's not a relevant setup anymore really, but Kill All Townies should have Loyal modifiers added to Doctors. Wanted to double check with ya'll before I do so.


I'm fine with the above post fwiw.

[BBmolla]

As written, the crossshoot endgame would be a townwin. Town doesn't need to have a player left alive to win.

And I'm fine with Mime winning Vig/Mafia/Mime despite the fact that the game could technically end in a different way because it's very unlikely to happen AND if it does the mime probably deserves the win for dodging multiple nightkills for however long it took to get to a 3p LYLO. If you let day start with 1v1v1 Mime cannot win, and it sucks to have a player who can't win in a game.

Also, it's impossible to have a 1v1v1 LYLO without a mime lynch. If a mime is shot, they both leave the game.

Also, A 0v2v1 should autoend in a mafia win because while mimes have majority they can't lynch both of themselves before the mafia nks. This should probably never happen, but I just realized it's technically possible.

If a day begins with 0v2v1 (2 being mimes) in theory it’d play out like this

Day 1: Mimes have not met win condition (both not lynched)
Mafia has not met win condition (something is stopping them from being a threat to town even though town is dead)
Mimes lynch Maf

Day 2: Mimes lynch Mime A

Day 3: Mime B self votes to win

[BBmolla]

Either:
Mime should sui if partner dies

OR

Change to version where Mime must match death of other Mime. If Mime A is nightkilled, Mime B must be nightkilled. If Mime A is lynched, Mime B must be lynched.

[BBmolla]

Having 0v2v1 end in mafia victory definitely gives Mimes a sort of survivor wincon which is sort of bad.

If we make Mafias wincon to match or exceed town, regardless of Mimes left, this would get rid of these kingmaker scenarios.

I’m in favor of
0v2v1 = Mafia Vic
1v1v1 = Mime Vic
Personally

[BBmolla]

Agreed. And 0v2v1 should be a mafia win, because the second mime lynch is impossible. 0v1v1 can only end in no lynch no kill cycles if the game is continued.

You lynch mafia first then Mimes lynch each other

[BBmolla]

Nope. Mafia lynch ends the game in town's favor. Mimes lose if they lynch the last mafia. God this is a wonky setup.

Oh yeah you’re right sorry I don’t read ahead

[BBmolla]

Hope Plus One

9 player:

3 Mafia Goons

1 Town Cop
2 Macho Doctors
7 Vanilla Townies

• Daystart
  
• If both Doctors target the same player, the protections will fail.
  
• If one Doctor dies, the cop becomes Macho.
  
• Mafia have a Factional 1-shot Vanillaise.

Hey this setup is townsided, I think this should fix all the situations that have been issues of late? Can give Mafia a Tracker as well if scum is still too underpowered.


Also just for fun

Hope Plus One Reloaded

9 player:

3 Mafia Trackers

1 Town Cop
2 Macho Doctors
7 Visitors

• Daystart
  
• If both Doctors target the same player, the protections will fail.
  
• If one Doctor dies, the cop becomes Macho.
  
• Mafia have a Factional 1-shot Vanillaise.

[BBmolla]

I mean it’s not really Mafia. There’s no informed minority.

[BBmolla]

Keyword being informed

[BBmolla]

Citizens Mafia

5 Players (3 Town, 2 Mafia)

10 Citizens

8 Vanilla Townies
1 Town Jailkeeper
2 Mafia Goons

In this game, players do not lynch each other.
Instead there are two citizens that each player knows the alignment of, leading to 10 citizens total.
For every town player, their two citizens are town.
For every scum player, one citizen is town, the other is scum.
Players are alive all game and lynch whichever citizen they please every day.
Mafia selects a citizen to kill every night. They can kill their own.
During the day, in MYLO or LYLO, the Mafia’s citizens are lovers. If a Town citizen dies as a result of this, there is no nightkill.
One random citizen, with a Town Player, is a Jailkeeper.
The first lynch reveals the alignment of the Player as well. This means if a Mafia's Town Citizen is lynched, they are still revealed to be Mafia.

Any glaring issues?

[BBmolla]

I'm having trouble parsing what the setup is.

What's confusing

[BBmolla]

Like it'd look like this:

Citizens
Abe
Bill
Cole
Dominique
Eva
Fran
Gail
Hubert
Ike
Jack

Players
DoomLlama666 (Knows alignments of Abe and Bill)
YargonxXx (Knows alignments of Cole and Dominique)
Smeeb (Knows alignments of Eva and Fran)
Dominic12345 (Knows alignments of Gail and Hubert)
JimSox (Knows alignments of Ike and Jack)

Two of these players are Mafia, with one Town Citizen and one Mafia Citizen.
Three of these players are Town, with two Town Citizens.

Town players want to lynch all Mafia Citizens
Mafia players want Mafia Citizens to equal or outnumber Town Citizens

Players vote for Citizens to lynch instead of players

JimSox is scum, let's lynch Ike?
VOTE: Ike

[BBmolla]

Sorry

Citizens are like robots, nobody plays for them

[BBmolla]

It's just five players

[BBmolla]

Ayy that looks much better than what I suggested

[BBmolla]

Might be beneficial to replace the Jailkeeper with a Cop that gets back one of the Artifacts the player owns that is town.

Could have two of them tbh.

Idk, feels incomplete atm.

[BBmolla]

okay I'll add it

[BBmolla]

Couple ideas

If worried about same area being targeted, have the eliminated townie reorder to their liking. If worried about taking too much time, plus making the mafia selecting harder, have a player vengeswap two players and have the mafia, as a day action, choose a position (#1-10) instead of a player.

I think starting with less, but giving town +1 move per day, could be useful to prevent "okay we literally spent all our moves and now we lose."

[BBmolla]

I approve

[BBmolla]

hey, wanted to run that sometime soon in the Micro Queue so does that feel balanced to y'all? (yeah this is probably a pretty different way to play the game, but imo it's still mafia, kinda, idk i like the original game and wanted to see how it would be like there)

Mindnight : forum edition

4 Agents
1 Admin

2 hackers
1 scriptie

The Admin is aware of who are the members of the hacker team, but not what are their roles (pls wait before saying this is outrageous you'll see)

The hackers have a PT in which they may talk at any time, they don't know who's the scriptie and he doesn't know who they are

instead of voting to execute peoples, the players take turn suggesting and voting for a team to send for "node maintenances", players propose teams in order of the playerlist, they may skip their turns, and upon thee 5th refused node team, the hackers immediatly win

once a node team has been approved by majority, the game enters a 24h "night" phase where all of the members of the node team must choose to either

hack

it, or

secure

it, a single hack makes the node mission fail

There are 5 nodes in total, having the following sizes in that order :
1st node : 2 players 2nd : 3 players 3rd : 4 players 4th : 3 players 5th : 4 players

the first team to gain control of 3 nodes wins, if the agents win, the hackers get one last chance, they are all revealed to each other, and may try to nuke one player, if the nuked player is the Admin, victory goes to the hackers instead

Mindnight is based off The Resistance which has been run here more than few times in the Mish Mash lobby

Auro and I ran a sort of Mafia/Resistance combo last year actually called Chromavalon

[BBmolla]

apologies, but bump: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12622286

I would run as is, looks balanced. Really rough if the Psychologist gets a guilty result on the Babysitter night 1, or if the pair die night 1, but I don't think it's unwinnable if that happens.

I would add a modifier to the Encryptor to describe the "can't kill unless 1 mafia exist" affect. Maybe like "Hesistant" or something. Just makes it more clear.

[BBmolla]

Now that I'm thinking about it, might be beneficial for Alien to claim day 1 to force a counter claim or even just to force the Roleblocker to roleblock them night 1 and 2.

You can do a weak follow the cop.

[BBmolla]

Lemme think on it.

[BBmolla]

Now that I'm thinking about it, might be beneficial for Alien to claim day 1 to force a counter claim or even just to force the Roleblocker to roleblock them night 1 and 2.

You can do a weak follow the cop.

If alien claims D1 scum can MD an unclaimed town, kill an unclaimed town for a 1/9 chance of killing both and a 1/9 of catching a town PR. Town gets a 0% of stopping a kill, and it's exactly as likely for the psychologist to hit the babysitter as the scum who didn't make the kill, meaning a fake guilty is the same as an actual guilty and the Psych becomes a glorified IC. It also gives the scum the ability to narrow down the babysitter based on JK's actions.

Probably better if the Psych claims D2 without outing their target and the JK targets them at night so that you can play pseudo Follow the IC, as the psychologist is unlikely to die before scum kill the rest of the power because they won't be able to tell if they detected the JK or the babysitter.

Still think it's probably scum sided as is, tbh.

I'm balancing it against Friends and Enemies, it definitely could be scumsided. I think more often than night the lovers die one of the first two nights (due to being outed one way or another) and the Psych misses so it's generally a bit like a weaker Friends and Enemies (except only two masons know each other) which is townsided anyways.

idk, that was my thought process

I think psych always claims d2 no matter what

[BBmolla]

I think if we concurred it was scumsided I would change 1-shot Psych to Macho Psych.

[BBmolla]

With the false negative I think it's okay to have the Psych be not x-shot, along with the fact town are going to lose a day when the Lovers die