[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Vi]

There are two types of Open Games; Normal and Experimental. For a game to be approved as normal, it must pass the following criteria;

Not quite on topic, but is there a usable synonym for the 'N-word' lying around? As it stands it describes two different sets of standards.

[Vi]

There are two types of Open Games; Normal and Experimental. For a game to be approved as normal, it must pass the following criteria;

Not quite on topic, but is there a usable synonym for the 'N-word' lying around? As it stands it describes two different sets of standards.

Suggestions

Rational
Conventional
Natural
Traditional

"Standard" will do.

Yoguraimee is one of those setups that I reflexively wouldn't think would work, but after looking at it harder I have no idea if it's balanced or not.

[Vi]

True Love:

I'd especially like players who have played lovers games without talking to your lover to weigh in.

The fact that some players have to deliberately advocate their own suicide to get their lover lynched,

and are doing so without the benefit of the QT, just seems like it would be not-fun to play. This isn't a balance criticism (and adding lovertalk might swing it towards town heavily - QTs are a good way to scumhunt), but a scummy-ish lover partner makes it hard to figure out exactly how to play to your wincon, and I think lacking that privileged information makes it hard.

There are no different-alignment Lover pairs in True Love.

[Vi]

No, I went too quickly over the setup mechanics.

That and 6:2 with

same-alignment

Lovers actually has a theoretical 50% Town win rate (like advertised on the wiki page) and is basically a smaller version of Polygamist.

EDIT: 6:2 True Love also has a theoretical 50% Town win rate, so etc.

[Vi]

Even/Odd C9

has been upgraded to Alternating 9P - we don't need this setup.

But Alternating 9P is a Mid-Size Setup and Even/Odd C9 isn't.

[Vi]

Um, no?

I was under the impression that "Small Open Games" was 8P or fewer. What happened to that?

[Vi]

how did you arrive at .4 EV, Emp?

Firstly, I said ish. I wrote down the possibilities that lead to a town win and added them up.

But what assumptions did you make? Because if it were just random lynch then you should have gotten 22.86% EV. Obviously an adjustment needs to be made for the masons, but how did you account for that?

1. If a mason is run up both masons claim.
2. Nobody else claims.
3. Masons automatically claim D2.
4. Scum kill any any claimed masons.

I'm not ready to believe this is an optimal strategy. I'll test it later against:
1. If a Mason is run up, they claim.
2. If scum is run up, they will claim Mason.
3. If scum claims Mason, they will be counterclaimed.
4. A claimed Mason will not be lynched without a counterclaim.
5. A claimed Mason will die during the next Night (or as soon as possible in the case of multiple outed Masons)
6. Scum will not counterclaim Mason unless it would improve their win rate.
7. If there are multiple Masons alive, scum will only counterclaim at LyLo for a 50/50 shot at the win.

[Vi]

i actually think emp's makes more sense. I started to post what you did, Vi. But considering how short the game is, masons should probably either claim (if run up) as a pair or not. That way any player that claims mason without a pair is lynched.

If both Masons claim D1, the Town is disadvantaged quite a bit if they actually do lynch scum that Day (though their chances are still pretty good). If they lynch Town, though, it doesn't make a difference.

wrt 7, I'm pretty sure that that's not the optimum strategy. (2/3 compared to a 1/2 for scum).

It's not, upon reflection. Scum have a much better chance of winning if they don't counterclaim, so they won't.

In general though, I don't see that strategy you propose do much better then mine (It'll still be what I call 40ish).

It does, actually.

[Vi]

What was the ruling on PieE7's balance? What is the ruling on SCIENCE's balance? I want to push on.

The ruling on balance is that we don't know what balance is, objectively speaking.

I'm definitely coming down against Pie E7 though, as it basically requires one of the scum to fakeclaim. SCIENCE is better, if not blatantly so.

[Vi]

Can we just trash the science setup?

It adds nothing unique that friends and enemies doesn't add, and it's far too stupid a setup to argue about this much.

Small Open vs. Mid Open.

Also, there's no reason to talk in vague terms about the probability of Town winning via random lynching in SCIENCE when etc.

[Vi]

I thought I fixed that? *checks* That can be fixed easily.

Also, Wikipedia has nothing to do with this site.

[Vi]

I'd see if scum are consistently unable to handle double chosens before trying anything else.

I'm willing to give it a couple of shots to see how it plays. Does Chosen Mafia have a pre-existing wiki page? I can't find one.

I don't think so.

From what I recall, Baby Too Much Scum was not liked by anyone when it was actually being played.

[Vi]

Vi, can you make an "Outdated" category in the Historical Open Setups section? Just for unpopular setups or setups that are essentially something else, ie; 1-Shot Micro/1-Shot C9 etc.

Done...

[Vi]

For SCIENCE!

(okay, that was a fix)

I'm happy deferring to what most people want. Personally, 2:5:2 sounds better to me, but I have no strong feelings either way on this one.

Adding two Townies...
There's not much wrong with experimentation

in the name of SCIENCE

.

I feel kind of meh on 7p Vengeful. I think if Vengefuls start to get run with regularity, most people would want to play in the 5p version.

It's worth noting that I don't think 7P Vengeful has been run on this site at all, so nobody really knows what it would be like to play it...?

[Vi]

It should be pretty easy to pick one between Bugs Bunny and Near-Vanilla - probably Near-Vanilla.

Likewise between 2:2:9 and Masons/Monks, unless you think they're substantially different enough.

FEE and FEETOG can probably be one-or-the-other as well. Having been scum in a F&E game and after doing the math on what it means if your partner gets crosskilled, I'm more in favor of That Other Guy.

I'm surprised that Mafia has won both games of Bad Tweed. Even so, you would think that optimum play in that kind of game would be to No Lynch three times in a row.

The major reason no one has complained about C/9 yet is because in that one game where the RNG threw the two Goons against two Cops and a Doctor, the Doc role went to Rosso Carne, who proceeded to do absolutely nothing with it.

[Vi]

I'm surprised that Mafia has won both games of Bad Tweed. Even so, you would think that optimum play in that kind of game would be to No Lynch three times in a row.

I'm not - it's a scumsided setup. You're guaranteed to lynch town D1, as scum can fakeclaim cop to scare town off. And when you only have three mislynches available, two cops are going to lynch you three scum before you mislynch twice, especially when scum have a miller/Godfather maker. It probably is optimal to no-lynch D1 and unless someone has a guilty, no-lynch on D2.

I still wouldn't expect town to win more than 40% of the time, though.

Would adding a player/mislynch help?

[Vi]

Maybe, but I think that just reinforces no-lynch D1 (and D2) as the right play, as there's less chance of you losing a Cop.

So bin it?

[Vi]

Tread Carefully seems like a goofy novelty setup.

C/9 is something I remember seeing some arguments about.

I'm surprised you haven't accepted C9++ simply because of its popularity.

[Vi]

@Quilford 175: Yet it has been run several times and I don't think anyone has complained.

@Hoopla: I think that's a decent idea. It's much less work for everyone as well.

[Vi]

Vi, each required on average 8 replacements.

One even required 15. I think that's telling.

Probably because they were run as Large Normals and drew the Large Normal crowd.

[Vi]

Hay Hoopihoop.

Cult C9



Dethy^2

F11

FAC688

Impotence Mafia

Lyncher Mafia (should we have an IRC setups subcategory?)

Magic Train (or rather a "Not for Forum Mafia" subcategory)

[Vi]

Open Setup Certification Group Approved

Hoopla, what would you like to happen to this page?

Russian Roulette Mafia (again, an IRC-style setup - it IS Open, but I just don't see this hitting the rotation outside "Experimental")

SS3 (as above)

Too Much Scum (this should be an easy one; I'm just going quickly at the moment)

Trendy and Subversive

Vanilla Nightless (this page can probably be deleted or replaced with something better)

Vigilante Mafia

[Vi]

To be fair, Trendy and Subversive was popular for a while, and while it's probably just me Russian Roulette Mafia doesn't sound like total drudgery (at least with fixes to the mechanic).

Also, don't forget post 239.

[Vi]

Also, don't forget post 239.

They also should be binned.

F11 should be binned?