Mini 1262 - Game Over (Over!)

[Nachomamma8]

Hello, all. My plan is to catch up and take notes today, and start all of the good stuff tomorrow when I'll have a little more time.

I have to admit, I'm not quite sure what to make of Grimmjow's first interaction with Reck. Reck comes out and says that he's Grimm's boyfriend, and then he responds with a "yeah, and I don't really know what to make of Reck, yet". It comes out of nowhere and seems like nothing more than a response to Reck's mention of him. Otherwise, I see no reason why he should feel obligated to put out a null read on Reck on page 2.

I have no problem with Soda's late RVS post. I do, however, have a problem with his unvote. It's pretty clearly a way to placate his aggressors before the "wagon" becomes any bigger, but I could definitely see townSoda doing this based on past experienced. Net read suggests town.

@Pine's #81: You note that Soda is minimizing certain events. What obviously important events were Soda skipping over on page #4?

SK's "claim at L-3" post followed with a subsequent "oh whoops wrong game" post just reads wrong to me. SK wasn't in any other games with Soda at the time, and so there's not really a reason for the confusion to happen. Either way, it shows that SK really isn't that invested in the wagon he's pushing.

Triangle attacking a townread because of how sure it was while ignoring a scumread because of how sure it is scummy.

@implosion: And you might not recognize it because you have played with Reck/SDC before, but Reck's point of triangle ignoring his certitude is a valid one as well.

@implosion's #110: I got it, and I appreciated it.

Sleepy's posts on page 5 are in general pretty scummy. He has an overreaction to an accusation of his fluffposting, fluffposts, pushes poor pressure on Grimm, and gets mad at Grimm for ignoring a question... after ignoring a question.

And, in closing, Yates is probably town and I am sleepy as shit. Will be on full mode tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Triangle

Alright, done reading.

I prescribe more to Llama's point of view as far as the triangle VT claim goes: it's a safe claim for a new player, and is something plenty of newbies do if their partners haven't advised them on a fakeclaim. Plus, the lynch is just too damn good to pass up.

Ignoring Reck while attacking Grimm was strange; it seemed trivial to declare one 100% serious, and the other 50% or so. As I probably already mentioned before, I also found the fact that she was more concerned with attacking a town read than a scum read strange. But, far worse than that were the actual reasons for the vote: he voted Grimm for his overconfident Pine vote, and also for waffling? After a short exchange with Reck, triangle also backed off Grimm very quickly and went with a Yates vote, which seemed oddly timed at best, opportunistic at worst. She never followed up on the Grimm vote, really: and there was no "aha!" moment cited in triangle's posting to explain why she switched to Yates. Then, she explains it as a pressure vote and not a bandwagon which STILL doesn't make sense. If the vote was simply intended to be a pressure vote and not a bandwagon, then there would be no reason to put on another vote when pressure had already been added. She seems afraid of being accused of pushing a bandwagon on someone, and thus is quick to retreat when the accusation is made; she does not follow up and she does not turn back to the Grimm vote. Instead, she waffles and floats around before a VT claim and goes right back out.

[Nachomamma8]

Also 535 makes me want to go back to voting Pine.
It's really hard for scum to resist "you have a townread on town for a bad reason; they should still be eligible for scumconsideration but I'm not going to push on them right now."

Note: It's hard for

Pine

to resist this sort of thing. He's a bit of a meticulous player, and attacks shitty cases because they are shitty cases. DH's Werewolf Island is a brilliant example of this.

Heh, Force of Nature can be Town,

at least for D1.

Careless attitude right out of the box makes me think "this person is not concerned about how people think of him (them?)", ergo Town.

Scum have a kind of urge to constantly qualify statements.
It's obvious a page 2 read isn't engraved in blood, so qualification is totally unnecessary here.

I don't find that scum post like this more often than town do. I find that certain people are more conventional and straightforward while playing, and thus take "x is town" phrasing as a scumtell, and qualify their own reads so they don't make themselves hypocrites.

CONTRADICTIONS AND ATEEEEEEEEEEE
MY FAVS

ATE was my first thought too. Soda's reacting really scummy to this wagon.

Unvote
Vote: Soda

Okay, pine apparently sees SK as on a similar wavelength to his own.

I'm hearing you on it, I just like Soda better for now.

PE: SK is either scum or really off his game this thread. Reck's right.

SK's voting THE SAME PERSON Pine is voting. People helping me lynch scum just aren't having bad games.

Erm. Where someone is voting usually doesn't give a strong indication to how their game is going. Everyone who is voting Triangle is not playing well.

Also this is part of a bunch of Sleepy / Triangle / Yates attacking that goes on while Pine's vote sits happily parked on Soda:

Why would scum-Pine not jump on any of these three bandwagons?

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: SleepyKrew
I'll explain tomorrow.

Also, what the fuck happened to this?
"Hey, I'll explain tomorrow... By voting Reck and Pine and not mentioning SK whatsoever!"

[Nachomamma8]

Pine (5): SleepyKrew, Uphill, Furcolow, Weirdalexv, FoN.
Triangle123 (5): SodaSpirit17, Yates, Grimmjow, Reck, Nacho.
SleepyKrew (1): Pine
SodaSpirit17 (1): Implosion.

Not Voting (1):

Triangle123.

The Pine wagon is WAY more town-driven. Every single member of the Triangle wagon is at least somewhat scummy.

(1): You trust the reads of SK, Uphillscum, Furc, and lurker more than you trust the read of me and Reck?
(2): Uphill is not town. SK is probably not town. Weirdalexv is lemons. You have townreads on all of them?

[Nachomamma8]

In fairness, I've been part of both the Sleepy and Triangle wagons, and at the time of the final quote I was supporting both. PE: The final quote of 704.

So would it be accurate to say that Llama's accusation is wrong, and your votes were in line with the opinions you expressed?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Soda

Same reasons as before. Let's keep up the momentum. SKrew is a good alternative.

This is a bad vote.

Vote: Force of Nature

This is a better vote, but still bad.

Current best guess is Pine + Yates.

This is terrible.

unvote

This is probably the best thing posted in the thread so far.

[Nachomamma8]

1. Wagon members were scummy players.

If the Triangle wagon was a wagon formed of mostly scum and the Pine wagon was a wagon formed of mostly town and both wagons were on scum, then the Pine wagon would have won out. Scum would NOT expose a lurky, but mostly ignored, member of their team in order to save Pine, who was already under heavy suspicion (especially if there were AT MOST 2 scum on his wagon). They would also not just stick on a scumwagon and ignore the "flashwagons" that popped up. They would give their support to a TOWN wagon. The only reason they would decide to bus as opposed to switching is if they were actually pushing the triangle wagon along (they weren't), or if they had no opportunities to switch (they did). Why the HELL would any scum player anywhere let their scumpartner get lynched with a ridiculously unorganized town without even an effort to kill anyone else?

2. Yates did that "I'm locking in my vote on Triangle and am now going to be puff the magic lurker until I get some cred from that flip" thing.

Yates is town, but I'll explain that later. For now, this will do:

I wouldn't let him off the hook that easily. It could simply be warning a buddy that she wasn't really hammered and feigning an "oops". I don't have any reason to belive implosion is scum*, but...I don't really have any reason to think he's Town, either.

*(the RVS stuff was reasonable for then, but weak for the main part of the game)

I have a crystal-clear idea of what the scumteam is. Soda-SK-Triangle. I am willing to lynch any of the three of them, and have maintained that for a long time now.

Wait... If you have a

crystal-clear

idea of the scumteam being Soda, Sleepy, and Triangle, then why wouldn't you have any reason to think implosion is town? Wouldn't that make him town by default? What in the hay-ell is your motive for trying to keep implosion from looking town when you have a

crystal-clear

idea of the scumteam that doesn't include him?

I think I was hasty reading Pine as town

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

3. Several other votes were locked on Triangle forever including Reck (powerbusser extraordinaire), Grimm, Soda.

Reck, powerbusser extraordinare:

We have 48 hours for this to work. I'm getting cold feet on triangle due to the VT claim but SK's terribad tunneling on Pine is too much to ignore coupled with the complete dissonance in the past few pages

He's desperate for a mislynch and when he couldn't get Pine (who he supposedly thought was scum) lynched, he started aiming for Grimmjow, who is fairly inactive ATM.

This is a powerlynch if I've ever seen one.

I'm getting cold feet on triangle due to the VT claim

clearly I'm not too keen on triangle scum anymore so maybe you just aren't reading

As for Grimm and Soda, they AREN'T powerbussers extraordinaire and had plenty of chances to move off to a flashwagon. Why didn't they?

4. Triangle was a very bussable player and responded to her wagon like a player who was getting bussed (not fighting as hard, etc)

We've established that Triangle was a very new player. Does it honestly surprise you that she just sort of rolled over and tried to lurk out of pressure? Have you ever played a newbie game before?

5. Most people not on the Triangle wagon were respectably town.

Then why the hell didn't the Pine wagon go through? You think that the scum made a concerted effort to save Pine?

[Nachomamma8]

FoN, Pine is right. That said,
VOTE: Pine
wtf FurcoNacho

Oh, sorry. Let's just kill the counterwagon to a scumlynch with the cases from yesterday. That's a brilliant idea.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Uphill

Comes into the game, makes an aggressive attack against implosion for "completely ignoring the guy he's voting". Gives half-assed reads on a few other people, backs down after a quick exchange with implosion. Goes on a short lurker hunt without pursuing anyone else, then finally, near deadline, makes a left-field vote on pine without much of a reason, disappears. Has an absolute minimal interaction with Triangle who was the LYNCH OF THE DAY, which is made especially weird considering the lurker hunt he was making earlier. He never really explains the reason why he unvotes implosion, and the switch from kondi to Pine is pretty damn opportunistic, as shown by the fact that there's nothing leading up to it and no follow up AT ALL.

[Nachomamma8]

Haha Reck, you're not going to lynch me today.
I may not have been on the scum wagon at lynchtime yesterday, but even Pine / Nacho seem to be aware I towned pretty hard.

I wasn't mainly voting Pine for his reads-inconsistency, but it is something that bothers me.
And it was definitely worth pushing on.
VOTE: SleepyKrew

Why the switch?

[Nachomamma8]

Yates:
Yates:

Wow, Triangle. You are pushing pretty hard for no reason and with no evidence. Wait - I put a hyphen in my post. Oh! And an ellipses... Those are surely scum tells. Now I see your rationale.

You'll notice that I didn't have a vote on the board [other than no lynch] expressly because I didn't feel as though there was any evidence to substantiate a vote. I'm not even bothered by people calling me scum or potential scum or scummy or whatever they want. That's how a discovery phase works. While I acknowledge that I'm not a fan of the sarcasm or tone of FoN or Sleepy's posts, I at least understand what they are trying to do. In fact, I believe that their pressure may have borne fruit in exposing YOU.

Vote: Triangle

Suspicious to me at present:
1. Triangle - Looks like you are trying to exploit a general distrust of Yates as seemingly the 2nd or 3rd option for players [190, 215, 224+225, 229+230, 237]. Plus, voting for a noob is the easy way out.

No one is going to defend someone they don't know or particularly care for/about.

This is NOT a response to being attacked by a scumpartner. First and foremost, look at the bolded. It's a me-against-the-world response, which doesn't happen with new scum because THEY HAVE PARTNERS. This post also has the general tone of "I'm playing perfectly, you have no reason to attack me" as opposed to "Wait, WHY are you attacking me?" which is more typical of a new player getting bussed. There's also the small little detail of Triangle deciding to attack Yates under pressure, and new player knee-jerk response under pressure is very, very rarely to vote a partner.

In addition, he is an EpicMafia player, and they usually burn out early in a day phase. This is a pretty typical response, and I wouldn't call it POWERLURKING, especially since his constant reassurances of "my vote isn't moving" means he isn't avoiding the thread.

[Nachomamma8]

As I said, I have a lot of reading to do. I ISOed sleepykrew and liked him as a Trianglebuddy.
Uphill's next on account of you voting for him.

No reason to switch votes in the middle of a reread. Why do you like SK as a trianglebuddy? Why are you thinking that he's scummier than Pine?

[Nachomamma8]

ehhhh why'd scum Triangle say that if Pine is town.

Scum call townies town all the time. Don't forget that scum triangle also did this:

I don't like his certainty that Pine is town, especially when it's this early in the game.

I don't really think that scum would attack another person because they are calling their scumpartner town. Literally the only things that can be accomplished from this are: A) Someone with a town read on a strong member of the scumteam and no scumreads is lynched. B) Person with town read on a strong member of the scumteam reevaluates read. Townread is either lost or townread is reevaluated and scumbuddy is lynched.

[Nachomamma8]

Even after I switched my Pine read, he still wasn't very high up on my scumlist, he was definitely behind implosion, reck, and kondi/alex. None of my scummier reads were happening though and the deadline was coming down, so I'm really not sure what else you'd expect me to do there.

Um, you never followed up on any of those reads when you stopped voting them, how was I supposed to know he was on your scumlist? How was ANYONE supposed to know? Your ISO #10 didn't even imply why you were deciding to change votes. It was far more of a "hey, this is a scumslip, lynch now" kind of post. If this was a deadline compromise kind of post, you should have mentioned that you were voting Pine over triangle for X reason, and that you still thought implosion, reck, and alex were all scummy.

I don't know why you say I had minimal interaction with Triangle, I clearly stated I had a town read on her and I explained why I read her town, that seems like anything but minimal to me. I honestly didn't notice she was lurking until you pointed it out just now, but it wouldn't have mattered anyways because I had a town read on her and I'm certainly not going to pursue a lurker lynch on a town read. (like say, furc)

This is what you said about triangle:

My read on Triangle:

Reckoner: Neither you nor FoN said Furcolow is definitely 100% scum, and even though your reasoning for accusing him was, in my opinion, weak, you still gave reasoning to support what you were saying.

Except what you implied regarding your thoughts about Furcolow wasn't as strong as he was saying.

Reck: To me, Grimm sounded more certain that Pine was town than you were of Furcolow being scum. I was also not entirely sure how serious you were being about attacking him over ellipses and decided you were being half-serious, half-not, whereas Grimm sounded entirely serious.

Same as above. Genuine response, no hint of nervousness, calm and transparent, yadda yadda yadda.

You gave reasons for Soda being town, then posted a bunch of Triangle quotes that don't mean shit on their own and said "she's town too". You never mentioned her again. This is the definition of "minimal".

I unvoted implosion cause I was honestly pissed off about mattman and kondi lurking, and by the time I was over that it was really too late to try to get an implosion wagon going, especially with my first attempt giving me an idea of how successful I would be.

I'm assuming that implosion did scummy things after you switched votes. Why didn't you comment on them?

[Nachomamma8]

Soda, why is Pine on your scumlist?

[Nachomamma8]

TOWN:
Alex
Soda
Reck
Pine
Yates
Furc

Scum:
Uphill
SK

Leftovers:
FoN
Grimmjow

[Nachomamma8]

FoN, the next post you make is a good post. Otherwise, I'm going to vote you.

[Nachomamma8]

Because I said they were all in my scumlist in my very first post, and then never moved them?

See, reads are supposed to evolve when you play this game. You should be making an effort to see if your reads are correct or not. You should NOT make a scumlist in your first post and then ignore all of your townreads from then on and tunnel through your scumlist. Surely you realize that one reads post is not good enough?

I'll concede I should have been more clear that it was a deadline vote, but how are you concluding that I said "hey, this is a scumslip, lynch now" on Pine? I specifically said that I thought I might have been hasty in calling him town, why are you making it out to be more aggressive than that?

I read the paragraph before your vote.

And become king of fluff posting? No thank you. I'd already made it clear what I thought on all these things. I'm not going to repeat myself into oblivion.

Following up on your scumreads is not fluff.

Uh, no, I definitely did not just say "she's town too", I said the reasons I read her as town were the same as the reasons I read Soda as town, those are completely different. I still don't see what more I could have done.

You don't see what more you could have done? Maybe given actual reasons? Maybe paid attention to her instead of just filing her into the town-category?

Why would you assume that? My case on implosion at the end of the day was the same as when I replaced in.

Well...

He's just completely fucking ignoring the guy he's voting. No way in hell does town EVER do that.

I figured you'd be able to come up with more than what you posted initially, considering you had a hell of a lot more pages to work with. And you wouldn't want to be King of Fluff by just posting the same thing over and over again, right?

[Nachomamma8]

Dubious:SodaGrimmAlexUphillSkrew

YA DON'T SAY

ALL THE LURKERS PLUS SKREW ARE YOUR SCUMREADS?

HOW FASCINATING
HOW BIZARRE

What nonlurkers besides skrew and FoN are on your scumlist?

[Nachomamma8]

What nonlurkers besides skrew and FoN are on your scumlist?

You do realize my scumlist only has three people on it atm right

Fair enough.

[Nachomamma8]

You mean like how I said Pine was town and then later went back on it? Or like how I started out today by doing a total 180 on half the players?

Your 180s at the beginning of the day don't have any reasons. Your Pine town read had one reason. What I'm looking for is a thought process; reasons behind the change. You have none. All you're doing is changing your opinions on players whenever the hell you feel like it; and, coincidentally enough, these 180s are all on easy lynches. If you had a thought process behind it, it wouldn't look so terrible, but... you don't.

Constantly saying that I still think the same as the last time I posted is, though.

But you shouldn't be thinking the same thing throughout an entire day and then magically have REVELATIONS at the beginning of the next day. If you were town, you would be able to follow up on scumreads and not repeat the same thing because new things that person post would not all be null. When people post things, you should NOT be getting a null read every single time.

I did both those things.

How can you say something like this? Especially when YOU YOURSELF said you weren't?

None of what had happened in the meantime swayed me either way regarding implosion.

So you didn't find ANYTHING that implosion posted scummy or townie. Nothing at all.
You also didn't find ANYTHING that anyone posted scummy or townie either, except for Pine's "crystal clear" post.
And somehow every single other person playing either A) found something scummy/townie in someone past their initial scum reads, or B) were smart enough to pretend that they did. Are you telling me that you just form opinions at the beginning of each day that can only change after the night.

[Nachomamma8]

FoN is doing a really bad job of trying to obfuscate obvious Town voting. At this point his antics have moved from being mildly irritating to flat out forum fecal discharge. There is no value in having him continue on for another day.

Your reasons are too broad. Give examples.

I'll do something after a VC.

^scum

[Nachomamma8]

That Reckpost was a seriously lousy mudsling.
For one, Yates is a lurkasaurus and not on my scumlist. But yes, most of the active players seem town.
Nacho especially gets townpoints for being active; I think he's like me and can't help but lurk when he's scum.

I can be active while scum. You can also be active while scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Fair enough.

But if you're coming in here to post, then please post something useful. Llama is capable enough to handle tiny little posting like that.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm quite awake and sober, and using subtle cues against your opponents in a game that is largely based on social acumen and wit is an old, old trick. Again, Nacho's old avatar is a ready example. He used an inspirational head shot of Kennedy, a man who almost everyone has at least a reasonably positive image of. It immediately evokes a sense of trust, especially in Americans, especially young Americans, who comprise the vast majority of this site's player base. And when the going got tough, you puffed up that subconscious image with gems such as "As much as I fancy the idea of watching which scum chickens will relish the idea of lynching a FORCE OF NATURE -- lynching a blizzard is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, folks..." It's a purely scum tactic.

But see, my old avatar wasn't purely a scum tactic. It was a tactic, yes, but it wasn't a scum tactic. Having a voice of authority is just as good for a town player as it is for a scum player. The tactic Equinox used has a similar idea, but that doesn't mean it's a scum tactic.

Also, FoN is town. Let the wagon disappear and divert to Uphill scum.

[Nachomamma8]

In

this situation

it's a scum tactic. Throwing your weight (or perceived weight) around when you're trying to push a wagon you believe in is a Town tactic. Trying to stare down a wagon forming on you when they have legitimate concerns is scummy. Same tactic, different situations, different motivations.

But the problem is that 3/4 people DON'T have tangible concerns.

[Nachomamma8]

How the hell is that not a thought process?

How the hell is it a thought process? You said that scum probably weren't bussing triangle because the Pine lynch was so plausible, yes. But you only gave one specific reason for alex, who you voted yesterday. You did not give a single specific reason for ANY of the people you 180'd on. NOT A SINGLE ONE. Nothing at all.

Uhhhh.... I didn't say that? Please, quote me saying either that I ignored Triangle or that I had no reasons for finding Triangle town, because then I'd be a proven liar.

I honestly didn't notice she was lurking until you pointed it out just now

How do you not notice that someone is lurking unless you are ignoring them? If you're paying attention to them, then you should notice at least how active they're being.

No I didn't just form opinions at the beginning of the day, I wasn't even in the game at the beginning of the day. I imagine I'd have changed my opinions a lot more yesterday if I'd been here from the start. In any event, tunnelling isn't my strategy or anything, it's just how things turned out D1.

Okay, fair enough on this. But the main problem with your reads is that when they do change, they change without a thought process. For example, look at my FoN read. I came into the game a bit unsure, so applied pressure, made demands, threaten to vote. Then, after a little while of exchange, that evolved to a town read. You did this with your Mattman vote, but it's the only time when I can trace your thought processes at all. This needs to change, or I won't be able to see myself voting anywhere else for the rest of the game until scum kill me.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, hm. I must be switching up things you did for things SK did in my head.

Unvote; Vote: SK

...

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho - FoN posts like these viewtopic.php?p=3566180#p3566180 [and any number of other posts - pick one] are simple fluff. One recognized scum tactic is to post enough fluff that LOOKS like content while serving no real purpose other than to confuse. That's where "FoN is doing a really bad job of trying to obfuscate obvious Town voting. At this point his antics have moved from being mildly irritating to flat out forum fecal discharge. " comes from. To me, it's clear as day.

That posts emphasizes his point with numbers, which isn't necessarily a bad strategy. There might not be any analysis in that, but he is providing hard data on his game that can be double-checked and interpreted. I wouldn't call it fluff, though.

I do see your point of him posting fluff, but I think that's something everyone does when they've made enough posts. Not every sentence you make will serve a purpose; some will be completely stylistic. This doesn't mean that he's purposely obfuscating Town voting.