Mini 1262 - Game Over (Over!)

[Pine]

/firmcon

[Pine]

Oi!

No soy un alternativo del Mastin. Se no habla Espanol.

[Pine]

Pfft. Since when is broken Spanish considered "cryptography"?

[Pine]

Fuck you, too, cabron

[Pine]

Heh, Force of Nature can be Town, at least for D1. Careless attitude right out of the box makes me think "this person is not concerned about how people think of him (them?)", ergo Town.

Vote: Implosion

Not a fan of hopping on an RVS wagon without the pretense of even an RVS reason.

[Pine]

#3 (a traditionally-scummy spot) on an early RVS wagon, sans any reason at all. See, I used the word "pretense" because I think you might be scum. Scum wouldn't have a real reason, they'd have the

pretense

of a fake one.

[Pine]

It's not the same thing. FoN is acting boisterous, unworried, and somewhat aggressive. Implosion quietly bandwagoned in what

I

perceived to be a scummy manner, then got defensive when called on it.

I'm really interested how you got a Town read out of only two posts containing one sentence.

[Pine]

Wasn't calling it a Town tell. "Heh, Force of Nature can be Town, at least for D1" means that my first impressions are slightly Townie. I'm increasingly of the belief that on D1, which we all know plays a lot different than how things go after the first flip and night phase, you really shouldn't pursue people who give you the impression of null-Town or better, instead pursuing those who are null-scummy and worse. Similar to how we don't usually go after lurkers until D2. Besides, I'm sure you or others will pressure FoN just fine, I've had some good experience lately with using early PoE to narrow down D1 suspects. D2 I'll throw most of those slight reads out the window.

And Implosion didn't kill RVS, so don't credit him with it. You and I did.

[Pine]

PREDIT: Don't quit if Pine's scum, he's good.

Only as scum and third party. I'm fair to partly cloudy as Town, at best.

P-EDIT: I have been told that ellipses do tend to indicate scum, but I use ellipses a lot as well, even when not scum, so for me, it's more null then anything.

This is one of the stupidest tells I've heard...ever. I use ellipses all the time...they indicate a pause in thought greater than a comma but less than a full sentence break. We use ellipses in speech all the time.

[Pine]

It's not ellipses during speech that bothers me, it's the "Interesting..." type posts that trail off in an ellipses without any conclusion.

Agreed, though I'd call that IIOA or an attempt to disingenuously look thoughtful/engaged/productive. It's the same as if they'd just said "Interesting." with a period in place of the ellipse. The ellipse itself is irrelevant except as a part of speech/writing. This conversation about ellipses as a tell is getting seriously off-topic, so let's say we table it, yes?

/confirm ...

this

seriously

why would you confirm and go "..." unless you had some major guilt or psychological shit on your mind

^This is stupid and is starting to come off as a grasping-at-straws attempt to rub mud on Furc.

[Pine]

...Seriously? I said "without" pretense. So no shit you didn't have a reason.

And the minute people started saying "some random guy wrote an essay on why slots 3 and 4 on bandwagons were scummy, they became un-scummy" scum promptly felt no need to avoid those spots on the wagon, using that exact defense when people brought it up. Also, the word "traditionally" generally implies something that is regarded as coming from the past.

Tells are strong. Impressions, especially those described as "slight," are not.

My play has diverged strongly from early similarities to Mastin

[Pine]

CONTRADICTIONS AND ATEEEEEEEEEEE
MY FAVS

ATE was my first thought too. Soda's reacting really scummy to this wagon.

Unvote
Vote: Soda

PE: Also, minimizing those things that came before with the exception of chosen events. When Sodascum is confirmed, the things he's looking to downplay will deserve a second look.

[Pine]

L-3 whee
Soda go ahead and claim.

Terribad post. L-3 is not claim territory.

[Pine]

Why are you concerned with looking townie(r)?

Question seconded. Please don't dodge it this time, SK.

[Pine]

...

Literally the post immediately preceding the original question. Which you ignored.

So what about me makes me townie(r)?

PEDIT: So what if I fluff post? I contribute too. Reck fluff posts all the time. Is he auto-scum?
I'm tempted to dig up all the fluff posts now.

[Pine]

I'm hearing you on it, I just like Soda better for now.

PE: SK is either scum or really off his game this thread. Reck's right.

[Pine]

Hi All - Long time listener, first time caller. LOVE the game...

So, don't we usually

VOTE: No Lynch

on Day 1?

Absolutely not. You come from Epic Mafia, don't you? "Follow the Cop" is the stupidest strategy ever.

I like the FoN hydra. Still think it's Town, but not a fan of #2's "I haven't really been following along" participation, and as such am discounting any opinions it gives unless it decides to either participate in this game for real or fucks off.

[Pine]

The prevailing "wisdom" over at Epic Mafia is to No Lynch a lot (always on D1) and let the Cop do his or her business, clearing or condemning the players. Theoretically, this makes the game last longer and have more days, and lynches only occur when you're certain or whatever.

It's an asinine "strategy".

It's also been talked to death in MD and elsewhere and there's no need to continue discussing it here. Suffice to say that Yates' NL suggestion is null.

[Pine]

Why didn't you claim in your first post?
Refusing to read earlier is stupid.

That was his first post, scum. You don't post content in the confirmation stage.

Reading the last 8 pages has been pretty stupid, too, though refusing to read eight pages is a bit silly. I might replace into a 60+ page game and decide to ignore what came before, but 8 pages is a reasonable request.

[Pine]

This is clearly a matter of opinion (though you're wrong and should feel stupid for being so incorrect). The mere fact that there are different opinions on this matter (though most people agree with me) renders your question pointless. He stated it first thing in his first game post.

[Pine]

Actually, I quite like SK. I mock him because he's playing poorly, and I expect better from him.

[Pine]

Sure didn't take you long to backpedal.

Intriguing.

Who backpedaled? What's contradictory about saying I like SK, but think he's scum and playing unusually poorly?

Also, those open-ended "just thinking" statements like "Intriguing" are a minor scumtell. It indicates an unwillingness to commit to an opinion, and just throws something out there for others to run with without risking yourself whe you end up being wrong.

But Pine, how is voting scum playing poorly?

When bussing is super obvious, it's bad scumplay. But I don't think you're voting scum (assuming you're still voting the way I recall, too lazy to check.)

[Pine]

Ah, for some reason I thought you were on Reck. Bussing it is.

[Pine]

We've played together at least once or twice, and I've ready several more that you've been in. I don't care to find them if you've forgotten.

[Pine]

Yeah, I've seen you play bad Town. You're playing bad scum right now. Why do you keep thinking you have a point when I made mine a dozen posts ago?

[Pine]

In other words, SK is trying to craft himself a license to be as scummy as he likes without accepting responsibility.

Oh, and calling someone else's posts useless is a tragic irony here. You've wasted the last page or so talking about yourself and making others do the same.

I'm done.

[Pine]

What? I never called you an SK. Where'd you get that idea.

Perhaps you got confused by "SK" being an acronym for SleepyKrew.

Soda has done nothing to redeem himself from the original reasons we're voting for him. Why would it die?

[Pine]

And where'd you get Soda=ProbTown from? You had no issue with the wagon on him until recently.

Congratulations, you've completely negated all of your Town points in two posts.

[Pine]

^WIFOM

[Pine]

In my other game with Pine he randomly speculated about me being an SK.
We then lynched him D1 and he was scum.

I learned my lesson after that. I still count it as my only truly poor scum performance, and hunting third party on D1 has become my favorite scumtell, as it's so effective.

Why didn't you claim in your first post?
Refusing to read earlier is stupid.

That was his first post, scum. You don't post content in the confirmation stage.

Reading the last 8 pages has been pretty stupid, too, though refusing to read eight pages is a bit silly. I might replace into a 60+ page game and decide to ignore what came before, but 8 pages is a reasonable request.

Actually, I quite like SK. I mock him because he's playing poorly, and I expect better from him.

Just noticed the dissonance between these two posts: first he calls SK scum, then in the very next post he has a more playful/lighthearted attitude towards SK. He "expects better from him", but thinks he's scum?

Pine just shot up my scumlist.

I see no dissonance between those. I like SK personally, but think he's playing poorly as scum this game.

[Pine]

Not a fan of the non-specifics out of kondi, or his first post. On the scummy side of neutral and dropping.

[Pine]

Yates would be so much less scummy if his last couple of posts didn't have hyphens.

I agree. The hyphens are meant to convey pauses in thought, and they seem highly contrived and artificial. I missed that the first time through, thanks for pointing it out.

[Pine]

Pine. Please just answer this with a yes or no. Do. I. Play. Well. As. Town?

Not going to let this go, are you? It isn't a yes/no question, and phrasing irrelevant subjective questions in a black or white context is a classic scum tactic to then go "Aha!" The answer is that I believe you are capable of playing Town well, and I believe you are capable of playing Town poorly. In this case, I feel you are playing scum. Poorly.

[Pine]

None. See, this is the "bad scum" getting to you.

You went after my claim to have played with you before and observed you before, and got caught up in your "Holy crap, he's pointing a finger at me, must discredit him about something, anything. Aha! He's ignoring a stupid question of mine, I'll keep hammering at that. Wait, why'd I ask again?" reaction.

[Pine]

No, of course you haven't. Outright retaliating with "I'm not scummy, you are!" would be blatant OMGUS. Instead, you're using the slightly more subtle tactic of discrediting me.

[Pine]

^OMGUS against Triangle.

[Pine]

Any explanation to that vote? Or are you just gonna sit there with a vote on me and expect everyone to wagon..

Scum have a way of asking for an explanation where town would essentially just call the accuser dumb or scum.

I agree with the majority of your case on Soda, but not this. Personally, I can think of very, very little in this game more frustrating than being Town and having unexplained votes on me. I've gone batshit on people for not having good reasons (not counting RVS) for their votes, when all of mine (both as Town and as scum) are meticulously considered and usually explained in detail.

[Pine]

Pine... Please...

Anyway people with Llamarble history, does he tend to be vote-hoppy?

Please what? Use your words like a big boy.

Yes, he does.

[Pine]

What question? I've answered all of your inane questions at least twice.

[Pine]

Yeah, that's one of the questions I answered to what I feel is a reasonable degree at least a couple of times, SK. I'm going to be ignoring you until you become productive or until the time for your lynch comes around (today is SA's or DGB's turn, you'll get yours). A paradigm shift is really necessary in your play, considering that roughly half of your posts this game revolve around your paranoia about peoples' opinion of you or similarly useless topics.

WHO ARE YOU AGAIN?
Grimmjow

I lol'd.

[Pine]

I'm in too many games with the same people

[Pine]

^IIOA, and damned little at that. Supporting Soda's lynch with a Townread is super duper scummy. Next, please.

[Pine]

Sorry, what analysis did you offer? All I see is irrelevant information, reads without reasoning, and noncommittal bullshit.

[Pine]

Was ISOing Furc to hassle Uphill about his Furc=Town declaration, but remembered Furc=Miller.

Allegations against Furc retracted, but not the criticisms. Dude, you've really got to provide more than just "this guy is scum, that guy sucks, and that one is weak." Reasons. Analysis. Show us your logic so we can follow it...that's the only way you can get us to understand your point and lynch scum.

[Pine]

VOTE: Pine
dieDieDIE

I lol'd.



Long day. Haven't really processed much of what was posted.

[Pine]

Not a fan of the hostility in 401. Got something to hide?

[Pine]

I want to say that 403 is too blatantly scummy to be scummy, but from what I've observed I am uncertain that Mattman is competent enough to be that clever. In other words, as much as I want to dissect the WIFOM of OMGUSing that badly, I don't know if it's possible.

[Pine]

I happen to agree with him regarding your poor participation, so despite him being a prick about saying it, the hostility isn't really warranted. Shape up, please.

[Pine]

I answered your question a long time ago, at least twice. I decided to ignore your constant pestering to quote it, thinking you'd let it go and learn how to read my ISO. Your question was and is utterly irrelevant to the current game, and therefore continuing to hammer away at my refusal to answer it a third time is either really bad scum play or

ridiculously

bad Town play. Combined with your other scummy actions, it comes off strictly as an attempt to appear productive while making it seem like I'm not answering legitimate questions. This is a false premise. Your vote on me is based solely on this, which equates to really, really bad OMGUS.

Now go ISO me and kindly fuck off.

[Pine]

Oh for fuck's sake. This...

Pine. Please just answer this with a yes or no. Do. I. Play. Well. As. Town?

Not going to let this go, are you? It isn't a yes/no question, and phrasing irrelevant subjective questions in a black or white context is a classic scum tactic to then go "Aha!" The answer is that I believe you are capable of playing Town well, and I believe you are capable of playing Town poorly. In this case, I feel you are playing scum. Poorly.

is where I answer most succinctly, but about a third of my ISO at this point is devoted to either repeatedly giving my opinion of your meta in various different ways in the vain hope that you'll understand what I'm saying, or telling you to fuck off.

I WILL NOT BE RESPONDING TO THIS OFFTOPIC AND USELESS LINE OF QUESTIONING AGAIN. EITHER BE SATISFIED AND FUCK OFF OR DON'T BE SATISFIED AND STILL FUCK OFF.

[Pine]

Avoiding the game? I check it obsessively (you posted the above six minutes before I started typing this.) Indecisiveness != avoiding.

[Pine]

SKrew, Soda, and Triangle are still the scummiest people in the thread. Nothing that's been posted since last evening when I last posted has changed or affected my opinions in a significant way. I don't like to post frivolously in games with batshit crazy people.

[Pine]

SKrew, why am I scum?

If you answer that question, I will answer any you have for me. Again.

[Pine]

And 11.8% of the total posts in a 13 player game is hardly lurking. Try again.

[Pine]

1. I have not lied in this thread. I challenge you to show where I have.
2. I have avoided no questions. I have simply stopped repeatedly answering the same off-topic, self-obsessed questions.
3. Hypocrisy where?
4. The longest I've gone without posting in this thread was just over 19 hours. 9 of those I spent asleep, and another seven or eight of those I spent at school. I have something to the effect of 1/8 of the posts in this game.
5. I have not lurked, therefore I cannot justify lurking.
6. "Attempted to appease?" If this were my modus operandi, I'd have waited on your every whim and thrown away an hour or two of my life to create a thorough, hyperlinked analysis of your meta. My gut reads and recollections are sufficient, and I don't have to justify them to you beyond a cursory manner.

Additionally, nothing you just listed (except the falsified lying claim) is relevant to the "scummy" category of behavior. It's mostly the "this guy is a dick and is ignoring me" category.

Try. Again.

[Pine]

Pinescummeta and Pine townmeta aren't hugely different stylewise. Guess I'll have to look at specific stuff.
But that's for tomorrow.

Thank you?

At least I think that's a compliment.

[Pine]

I disagree, Reck (about the Soda wagon). It was formed for excellent reasons, and I feel those reasons haven't gone away. Soda's been guilty of opportunistic voting, sheeping in a scummy way, bad reactions to having a wagon on him (major AtE when it happened), and generally lurking whenever people aren't paying attention to him.

There's a reason my vote hasn't moved off of him since page four. He's either scum or a liability, and nothing he's said makes me want to reconsider that opinion. Same applies to SleepyKrew - scum or liability. Either are good choices for a D1 lynch, and so is Triangle (though less on the "liability" angle, and more on the "likely to be scum" angle.)

[Pine]

FUCKING FINE.

I'LL THROW MY VOTE DOWN ON THIS VI SHIT BUT WHEN YOU TURN OUT TO BE WRONG YOU FUCKING OWE ME A TRIANGLE LYNCH.

DEAL?

I support this product and/or service.

You're adorable, FoN.

[Pine]

No, there isn't. If that was a serious claim, I'll put the noose around my own neck to prove it wrong and score a lynched scum for my trouble.

[Pine]

Lolwhut? I claimed? When'd that happen?

Stop making shit up. I think unaware Millers are non-Normal anyway.

[Pine]

Are you currently high? 484 is nothing remotely like a claim. You claimed, probably jokingly, to have a (presumably Day) Cop guilty on me. I know for a fact that this is impossible outside of your left-field Miller-but-doesn't-know-it suggestion. Ergo, I would be happy to accept a lynch at this point, because it would prove you a liar and therefore scum. Trading 1-for-1 at this point in the game is a chance anyone ought to jump at. At no point did I claim, you looney bastard.

Regardless of the above, you were probably joking around with your claim, which makes it off-topic as well as useless. Now contribute to the game in a positive manner, please.

[Pine]

He's using the "ignore your scumbuddy wherever possible" strategy rather than bussing.

[Pine]

He hasn't made a case on the other two, either. He's riding others' cases on Soda, and just keep yelling "lolscum!" at me.

[Pine]

I said you haven't made a case against Soda. =True

I said you are most likely started by distancing, and are now straight up bussing. =True

When I first started playing on this site, I read a number of guides that suggested that if you aren't bussing your partner within the first couple of pages, you're doing it wrong. This is consistent with the site meta I've seen.

I don't need to try again. You're splitting hairs and still failing to make sense. Bussing and distancing are the same thing, with a distance only of degree.

[Pine]

How so?

[Pine]

I think Pine is counterwagoning.

Pretty sure my opinions on Soda were registered long before the Triangle wagon began. Both wagons have their origins in the first few pages. But you're right, I will happily go over to the Triangle wagon if that's the one that's going to go through today. I feel both have roughly equal merits, though those merits are different.

Soda is scummy and a liability if Town. Triangle is very scummy, and though not a liability, will not be taken seriously if Town because of said scumminess.

[Pine]

Didn't realize we were that close to a lynch on Triangle. I'm on board, Soda or SKrew tomorrow.

Unvote
Vote: Triangle

[Pine]

^Hammer

[Pine]

>_< Dammit implosion

[Pine]

There were 4 votes last VC, plus FoN's and mine, she's at L-1. Was trying to riff off of Reck's...ummm...

reck

lessness (I slay me )

Cat's out of the bag. Claim in your next post, Triangle.

[Pine]

I wouldn't let him off the hook that easily. It could simply be warning a buddy that she wasn't really hammered and feigning an "oops". I don't have any reason to belive implosion is scum*, but...I don't really have any reason to think he's Town, either.

*(the RVS stuff was reasonable for then, but weak for the main part of the game)

[Pine]

Eh, that's pretty subjective. I'll sheep your townreadfor now though.

[Pine]

Eh. I do all of those things as both Town and scum. The one thing that irks me is your insistence on the whole "SK was playing well early" thing. I think SK is bussing Soda, and I think it's obvious that's what he's doing. Hence agreeing with him at first, then realizing they were distancing buddies. I feel I've been extremely clear about this.

[Pine]

I have a crystal-clear idea of what the scumteam is. Soda-SK-Triangle. I am willing to lynch any of the three of them, and have maintained that for a long time now. You'll notice that I've done a lot of vote-hopping and vote-leaving, and it's on the three of them. I don't see a whole lot of Town vs scum arguments except between SK and I and between Reck and Triangle. Considering that I've been at the center of the former and have supported Reck in the latter from the start, I did not feel it appropriate in the former or necessary in the latter to explicitly state my position, as I felt it was very clear.

Soda is probably scum, I have never wavered on that. However, I feel the case is slightly weaker on him than the other two, hence why I mention that even if I'm wrong, lynching him as a liability is pro-Town anyway. This game is much clearer than most, so I have not fence-sat on those I feel are scum, and have not been motivated to get down to brass tacks with those who are slightly suspicious but outside of my core three.

My meta is very spontaneous and changeable, and varies widely from game to game. I'm aware it is bad form to comment on one's own meta, but there it is. I don't have or believe in a single strategy as either Town or scum, and I tend to adapt based on the game, who I'm playing with, and my mood. Here, I have quite a number of strong Town reads, three strong scumreads, and very few neutral opinions, most of those lurkers.

[Pine]

-Voting Soda right away, then backing off of him, then bussing him hard when his number came up
-Obviously

[Pine]

Who the hell ever successfully picks the entire scumteam Day One? I'm probably wrong about one, maybe two of my three. I'm not perfect, nor was I trying to be.

[Pine]

I want a response from everyone not listed below on this - When I flip Town, will you go back and re-read my opinions, and lynch Soda, Sleepy Krew, and maybe Triangle?

I say "maybe" Triangle, because if Sleepy Krew is scum as I suspect, then this...

Nah, I'd prefer a scumflip first.

...may be interpreted as a slip clearing Triangle. If you don't see it, you don't really deserve to, but I'll spell it out. By suggesting he wants a scumflip first, he's specifically implying that Triangle

won't

be a scumflip.

Again, I want promises from everyone voting for me that they'll take my reads seriously.

[Pine]

I don't feel it's a lie from SK, I think it might be a slip. Slips, by definition, not intentional and cannot be lies, but are rather insight into their thought process. You're right that my Triangle vote is out of place in this case, and though I'm not certain by any means, I'm no longer comfortable with it.

Unvote
Vote: SKrew

I realize I'm likely the lynch for today, with the Triangle wagon falling apart (particularly with my change of heart contributing to it.) I've made peace with that fact.

[Pine]

Reck, at this point, I'm 95% likely to be a mislynch at some point, whether it is D1 or later. Making that lynch not a waste is more important than preventing it.

Claim: VT

I'm also not a loss for Town. I've said my piece and don't have an important role. So don't sweat it.

[Pine]

Chill, Reck. I don't think FoN is scum. I can see where his thought processes are taking him.

FoN, check out NY 129 and the events leading up to my mislynch. This is eerily similar to that, except my final prediction was correct about 3 of the remaining 4 scum, and got ignored for a Town loss. Hence my obsession with getting promises that when I flip Town, they won't be ignored.

[Pine]

FoN, consider my point about SKrew and Triangle?

[Pine]

@FoN: I've played a good deal with Reck now, and I don't think he'd be willing to consider anyone other than Triangle at this point unless the Triangle wagon dies for today. If SK were to flip Town, I'd support a D2 Triangle lynch with all of the evidence thus far presented returning in full force. If he flips scum, however, I feel that would completely clear Triangle. Hence why I'd prefer SK, then Triangle or Soda depending on flip.

@Implosion: Yes, good case. Soda is probably scum,

but isn't the lynch for today

Fuck it! There's conditional modifiers attached to the SK-Triangle relationship, and I'm a lot more confident of Soda at this point than I am of either SK or Triangle.

Unvote
Vote: Soda

Obvscum first, then probscum, then conditionally-scum.

[Pine]

What is with both wagons claiming VT and

calling each other town.

Thoughts on a Yates flashwagon?

I'm not, I still retain heavy suspicion of Triangle. I'm just saying that there's no way Triangle and SKrew are scum together. As I have no reason to believe SKrew to be Town and every reason to believe he is scum, logically we lynch him first, and hold off on Triangle for now.

In either case, Soda is definitely scum, and must go.

[Pine]

Sounds like you're having second thoughts about Triangle too, Reck. It's not too late to lynch Sodascum.

If we come down to deadline, though, and can't rally on Soda or SKrew, Triangle is better than nothing. I'll even support my own lynch over a no-lynch, for reasons previously stated.

[Pine]

No, I didn't (and I'm not why you thought that). I was under the impression that the below indicated that you were thinking that an inexperienced scum player would be less likely to claim VT, and indicated some doubts on your part.

See, I was thinking the opposite: if she had less experience, she would be more likely to claim a power role as scum, because claiming a power role to out the power role is pretty basic scum 101 tactics. At least, that was my experience.

Your explanation makes logical sense, though, so I guess it's null.

[Pine]

Ah, so you're just confusing me and FoN. Got it.

[Pine]

Come

on

, people. I swear to god, half of this tread is choosing to power lurk.

The deadline is in (expired on 2011-10-31 23:00:00) <--Countdown, so this is accurate to your time as you read this.

At 18 hours out, if the Soda wagon hasn't gained sufficient steam I will reluctantly rejoin the Triangle wagon.

[Pine]

I will

bus

vote Soda at deadline if needed, but don't see a Sodalynch happening.
Still waiting for someone to tell me why triangle is scum.

First sentence seems forced. He's trying too hard to be nonchalant.
Still waiting for you to tell me why I'm scum. And Reck and others have made good cases against Triangle.

[Pine]

We can discuss it further D2. We don't have time to build from scratch. 46 hours and change by my reckoning.

[Pine]

I'm voting Soda, for whom an established case and an established dialogue exists, as well as a substantial number of people who have expressed suspicion and at various points voted against. The case against Grimmjow is weak, being based mostly upon his lurking and absence, which appear to be site-wide, he has mostly been ignored by the group as a whole, and there has been little suspicion leveled his way except by a few individuals. Simply put, he is a valid topic of investigation, but we don't have the time to rally a wagon from thin air in the next 42 and a half hours.

[Pine]

October 30

- Mini Normal 1262!

Moderator:

Regfan

Status:

Day 1, 26 pages

Replacing:

Mattman

Deadline is in less than two days but I'm likely to extent it two more days due to the replacement.

With a bit less than ninety hours thanks to the above-quoted proposed deadline extension, it becomes reasonable to hear out your case on Grimmjow.

[Pine]

Why is it good?

[Pine]

In your own words, please.

[Pine]

Grimm wagon is good. This is an intent to vote if it grows.

Umm
uselessness?
lying?
stuff?
idk FoN help me out here bro

Can anyone else see why these two quotes are directly at odds? In the first, SKrew expresses certainty regarding Grimmjow. In the second, a mere two posts later, he cannot adequately explain, even to his own standards, WHY the proposed Grimmjow wagon is good.

Please give an example of Grimmjow lying. I'm fascinated to hear this.

[Pine]

Huzzah! Welcome, Nacho.

[Pine]

I think the case FoN presents on Grimmjow is reasonable, but not enough. It's more or less the

start

of a decent case, and is not yet compelling enough to alter the voting dynamics of the current wagons. If the active lurking were to continue into D2 without good reason, then it might become sufficient.

[Pine]

Let's go, Soda lynch ahoy.

[Pine]

He's also been V/LA, asshat. I don't lurkerhunt until at least D2, because I've been there and gotten lynched on D1 as Town for being V/LA and having difficulty catching up. I find it nauseating that you predicate your entire case on that.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: SleepyKrew

Freaking finally.

[Pine]

68 hours or so by my reckoning. We've got time. It irks me that you're better able to articulate the case on SKrew than I am, though I've been wrestling with him for most of the game.

[Pine]

@Nacho:

Well? Most 'keyword most' of the people haven't posted enough info to gather much info. The only things eventful that happened were Furcowgon, Grimmjow saying he would quit if Pine was scum, and now this wagon. None of the former 2 were scum-tells.

Soda was being dismissive of everything except Furc's claim, Grimm's claim, and the Soda wagon. Things of note that spring to mind are the discussion of FoN's attitude and Implosions mini-wall in 61.

[Pine]

Why?

[Pine]

How do you know you'll be alive tomorrow?

[Pine]

Ah, understood.

Go back to your corner, SK. Adults are talking.

[Pine]

The crazy thing is that the snow capital of the country (Central New York) didn't see a single flake of snow. I want my snow, dammit. Even the Tug Hill Plateau, which can often get 350+ inches of snow in a winter, got nothing. My sister in Amherst, Mass is still out of power, and had a tree fall on her apartment (literally).

[Pine]

Useless, yes. Scummy...eh. He fades in and out.

[Pine]

You aren't?

[Pine]

In fairness, I've been part of both the Sleepy and Triangle wagons, and at the time of the final quote I was supporting both. PE: The final quote of 704.

[Pine]

Llama's accusation is wrong, but your reasons for refuting it are also semi-inaccurate.

[Pine]

Or if she doesn't want to immediately become a hypocrite. Triangle has stated a Townread on me.

SKrew is a better lynch.

[Pine]

I said I'd go in at 18 hours. I'm still hoping for people to come to their senses and lynch either SKrew or Soda.

[Pine]

Reck, you up for exploring a FoN lynch D2? He's becoming scummy as all hell.

[Pine]

Scum would plot in QT, jackass.

[Pine]

Oh hell. Triangle is down to four, Soda's up to two (I think) and SKrew's down to just me again.

Unvote
Vote: Triangle

We need a flip.

[Pine]

Vote: Soda

Same reasons as before. Let's keep up the momentum. SKrew is a good alternative.

[Pine]

Yeah yeah, I was partially just grumping. I'm much more confident in Sodascum, and if lynching Soda and SKrew doesn't end the game, FoN can go next.

[Pine]

SKrew scum would have cleared Triangle, but not the other way around.

[Pine]

Uh, no. The statement from SKrew that I thought might be a slip was him implying that Triangle was Town. Triangle made no similar statement about SKrew. It's not the same.

[Pine]

Dude, you're way overanalyzing this. And I did

not

say that. SK implied Triangle was Town. Triangle did not do the same. It's a one-way logical deduction that has no bearing anymore.

A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not necessarily a square.

[Pine]

No, I didn't. I know exactly what I meant, and trying to rephrase it incorrectly doesn't change that. So fuck off.

[Pine]

I want a response from everyone not listed below on this - When I flip Town, will you go back and re-read my opinions, and lynch Soda, Sleepy Krew, and maybe Triangle?

I say "maybe" Triangle, because if Sleepy Krew is scum as I suspect, then this...

Nah, I'd prefer a scumflip first.

...may be interpreted as a slip clearing Triangle. If you don't see it, you don't really deserve to, but I'll spell it out. By suggesting he wants a scumflip first, he's specifically implying that Triangle

won't

be a scumflip.

Again, I want promises from everyone voting for me that they'll take my reads seriously.

This is the original quote. It does not say anything about what impact Triangle flipping scum would have on my opinion of SKrew. Triangle flipped Town, which disproved my original hypothesis and caused the logical construct to fall apart. The quote from SKrew was not a slip clearing Triangle. Period. All of the other remarkably scummy things SKrew has done still stand on their own. There is no equivalent dichotomy between SKrew and Triangle.

[Pine]

ehhhh why'd scum Triangle say that if Pine is town.

WIFOM.

@Uphill: That's because triangle is scum and Soda is the counterwagon boom it's done he's town

I don't understand this reasoning. Uphill brings up a good point - you've weighed in on pretty much everything so far and yet you glossed over the bandwagon on Soda, stating simply that he's town without actually giving any reasoning to support that.

Hm.

Also WIFOM.

[Pine]

Triangle was making use of WIFOM, which by definition can't really be followed. The best bet way to win the WIFOM game is not to play it.

Also, I note that you aren't following your own advice and trying to deduce what Triangle's motive were, which would be a futile but Towny thing to do. Rather, you simply propagated the WIFOM without drawing meaningful conclusions.

I'm fully on board now, Reck.

Unvote
Vote: FoN

[Pine]

vote: reck

[Pine]

Mod: VC please

When I can't remember exactly where my vote is, it's time for a VC.

[Pine]

I read 819 as little more than an attempt to puff up FoN's "defense by reputation". All of us that have been playing for a while know it exists; some people are simply able to stare down attempts to lynch them, even if it's for solid reasons. 819 contributes nothing, and uses intimidating comparisons as a way to bull past the accusations without engaging them. The very name "Force of Nature" is also a form of this, just like I thought your (Nacho) old avatar of Kennedy was a subtextual implication of honesty.

[Pine]

Perhaps my "defense by reputation" post was poorly phrased. Neither Equinox nor Llamarble carry sufficient reputation, on their own, to merit such weight. I'm talking about the really big names on these boards, like Fate, DGB, Reck, and so forth. Fate in particular springs to mind when I think about the concept.

You people, with this new hydra composed of a somewhat-nebulous team of moderate heavyweights, is attempting to create, out of whole cloth, an intimidating reputation. So perhaps "Defense by intimidation" is a better term for it.

And don't be flattered. It isn't working regardless of what I call it.

[Pine]

By the way, Equinox, when I decide to troll you, I won't unintentionally pseudo-compliment you and actually provide content towards a case against you!

I'll just mock you and call you inventively filthy names. You fruit-felching jackanape.

[Pine]

150 posts of content? Most of that is jumping from vote to vote without really digging deep into those suspicions, augmented by fluffy chest-beating and doing what you can to discredit your detractors (see 830). Take your late D1 charge against me, for example. You did jack all to really advance a case against me, and as soon as suspicion was thrown your way and evidence really started to mount that I was the scum-driven counterwagon, you jumped off and decided you were just kidding. That's happened with practically every one of your aborted wagons. In fact, most of the flash wagons that have been started and abandoned have been inspired by you.

I'm quite awake and sober, and using subtle cues against your opponents in a game that is largely based on social acumen and wit is an old, old trick. Again, Nacho's old avatar is a ready example. He used an inspirational head shot of Kennedy, a man who almost everyone has at least a reasonably positive image of. It immediately evokes a sense of trust, especially in Americans, especially young Americans, who comprise the vast majority of this site's player base. And when the going got tough, you puffed up that subconscious image with gems such as "As much as I fancy the idea of watching which scum chickens will relish the idea of lynching a FORCE OF NATURE -- lynching a blizzard is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, folks..." It's a purely scum tactic.

[Pine]

In

this situation

it's a scum tactic. Throwing your weight (or perceived weight) around when you're trying to push a wagon you believe in is a Town tactic. Trying to stare down a wagon forming on you when they have legitimate concerns is scummy. Same tactic, different situations, different motivations.

[Pine]

Cool story bro.

I'll admit that I seem to have incorrectly recalled the amount you nattered about me. I didn't really care at the time, or now for that matter.

It still doesn't address your shameless vote-hopping, flash-wagoning, changing your cases to suit public opinion, your sudden reversals, or your generally opportunistic behavior.

[Pine]

Motherfucker. FoN is a smug son(s) of a bitch, but probably Town. As much as last night's argument pissed me off, and as much as I stand by many of the concept arguments I made, I just don't see scum going that toe to toe with me in that situation. Backed up against the wall near a lynch, sure. Against a scummy player they were trying to bring down, yes. But experienced scum with only a little pressure on them and easy avenues to turn the conversation would have taken those avenues. Met me halfway, turned or deflected the conversation. To use a fencing metaphor, they'd have parried instead of using a hard block.

Unvote
Vote: SleepyKrew

[Pine]

Yikes, didn't realize that was L-1. Thanks for the timely Vote Count.

Sleepy, please claim.

[Pine]

WTF Yates. I think SK is Scummy McScummerson from Scumsville, but you always give them a chance to claim, to spare scummy-acting Town power or find inference and association from flailing, panicking scum.

[Pine]

Stop the lynch on FoN

He's not lying about being Neighborized. I have no message in the Neighborhood, and Nacho never actually talked in it last night, but I recommended to Nacho that he Neighborize FoN and FoN knew that I was the other Neighbor. Nacho and I both believe he's Town.

Vote: Soda

I'm not completely sold on Reckscum, though Nacho was in the process of convincing me and doing a good job. The other one who helped initiate the immediate FoN wagon was Soda, and on top of his remarkable scumminess from earlier, it's time he die.

(Note: I have not read from the beginning of the day to here yet, I saw the FoN wagon start and rushed to stop it. I will read soon.)

[Pine]

EBWOP: Just re-read a bit, and it was Uphill, not Soda that jumped right on. Soda, however, did make the really suspicious 875 and 878, wherein he demands a roleclaim prematurely and says there's no way FoN is Town, but fails to vote, even though FoN isn't at L-1 yet.

[Pine]

^This post, and his shameless flip-flop, practically bellows amateur scum.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: Yates

[Pine]

Yates and {Soda, Uphill}. Powerlynching time. GG all.

[Pine]

EBWOP: 923 is not a Town response.

[Pine]

In that case, yes, it was.

[Pine]

lolwhut? Served what purpose? I was saying yes, it was a noobish, scummy mistake. Die now, please.

[Pine]

Furc has enough experience to do it on his own. Not sure why it would require assistance or coordination from anyone else.

[Pine]

It's never too early for a bus, noob.

[Pine]

Grimm's last post was five days ago, and his post before that was ten days ago. Please replace him. It's unfair to Town regardless of his alignment, as we're denied his input if he's Town and denied the ability to catch him if scum.

[Pine]

Hey LLD! You've got some interesting things to say, but you can take your Town-read on Yates and kindly fuck off with it.

Soda I'm trending apathetic on, and starting to like Uphill more and more as Yates's buddy. So sure, I'll go along with you on that.

[Pine]

Hydra: ur dooin eet wrong

Play the game or don't. I'm confident that a Yates lynch will produce either a scum flip or the information necessary to lead us to a Town win.

However, the stagnancy of this thread and my read on Uphill lead me to switching to shake things up.

Unvote
Vote: Uphill

Flashwagon gogogogogo.

[Pine]

Beats me. I remember reading every article on this site's theory I could find while waiting interminably for mith to clear my account, and then doing it all again during my first couple of games. To a newbie, simple bussing can seem downright mustache-twirling clever. And many of those guides advise doing it right out of the gate.

[Pine]

Alright fine, you make a lot of sense. Stop rubbing my nose in it.

I swear to god, if Yates turns out scum, you owe me a lapdance.

[Pine]

Grimm's last post was five days ago, and his post before that was ten days ago. Please replace him. It's unfair to Town regardless of his alignment, as we're denied his input if he's Town and denied the ability to catch him if scum.

This is the full extent of my opinion on Grimm. I'm really terrible at reading lurks, and I know it. Hence why I want Grimmjow replaced. He's done the "Oh I'll catch up" routine too many times.

I can't render an alignment judgment on it, because when I flaked preceding my summer hiatus, I did it as both Town and scum, same thing. I should have replaced out, and Grimm should too.

[Pine]

It's never too early for a bus, noob.

I answered you. Then FoN/LLD and I had a little tiff about it, where I elaborated further. Then I unvoted you. Pay attention, lump.

[Pine]

Lurk moar

[Pine]

Uphill?

[Pine]

There's a reason to unvote him. He's Thor. He makes the game more entertaining even if you're of an opposing alignment.

Dance, monkey. Dance.

[Pine]

Uphill.

One of Soda or you. Mayyyybe Reck.

[Pine]

The Uphill wagon preceded the wagon on you/Alex, actually. You are the counterwagon.

[Pine]

I'm voting for Uphill. I was recruited as a Neighbor by Nachomamma Night One as his strongest Townread. His top scumread was Uphill too, I believe (working from memory) and that factored into my decision to vote for Uphill. FoN says they were recruited the night Nacho died, though I've seen no message in the Neighborhood to substantiate that. FoN is Town though, and I recommended them as Nacho's recruit, so I have no reason to doubt it. They can presumably substantiate Nacho's opinions.

Nacho's second scumread was Reck, and I'm decidedly undecided about him. My read fluctuates with my mood...if I'm being overly critical, I see Nacho's points. If I'm in a good mood, I see TownReck. Meh.

[Pine]

I would compromise with a Soda lynch if we get too close to deadline.

[Pine]

@Thor: Read 102, point 4 of 306, 988, and 1042. If Uphill flips Town and Soda flips scum, I'll look at Grimm as his buddy. Sodascum is the only real consistent stance I've seen Grimm take this game, and that kind of isolated consistency sans real effort looks like lazy bussing.

PE: Still waiting on the details of that shower a week or two ago

[Pine]

are you fucking serious. i had a huge wall of text and it didn't post?

(I can't decide they're all so adorable omnomnomonom)

[Pine]

Actually, I did, kind of. I just thought the big quote was a repeat of what Grimm said. As I already read Grimm's case, I skipped it. Soda responded to his questions within a quote, and didn't even bother to do it in a different color. Annoying.

[Pine]

No. Thor, look at the discussion FoN (Lady Lambdadelta) and I had on page 39-40). Yates pushed Triangle early and hard, and Yates is too lolnewbie to have pulled off a bus that convincingly.

[Pine]

Also, I have no clue what you're nattering on about in 1084. If you want opinions on something, put it in context and explain it. Links, quotes, whatever you need to do to make yourself understood.

Yates, shut up and pay attention. You are Town, I'm fairly convinced of that at this point. However, you've played so scummy in this game it's almost too hard to believe despite strong evidence in your favor. So kindly sit down and let the big boys play the game. Thor is far more experienced than to make a serious vote with that stated reason; he clearly has a case (several good ones have already been made) but doesn't feel like explaining.

[Pine]

Oh, and everyone, I want your opinions about this;

Well, actually I specifically pointed out two different town tells

FROM WHO?

in a case supposedly about showing me as scum

WHICH CASE?

- the third tell I noted was him

WHO?

calling me scum for making an RVS vote...seriously now, the case doesn't exist and I showed two town tells - that makes it a town case

THE SECOND HALF OF THIS SENTENCE MAKES NO SENSE OUT OF CONTEXT

. The fact that no one else said anything means two additional things;

1. There probably isn't any more of a case on me - thus I only have town tells on me.

UMM, WHAT? IF YOU'RE GOING TO JUST WHOLESALE DISMISS THE CASES AGAINST YOU, YOU CAN GO TO HELL. YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE.

2. Reck is probably scum, because he shouldn't have allowed that level of derpy to exists as a case he supported.

WHICH CASE? LINK PLEASE. ALSO, RECK IS SUPPOSED TO POLICE THE REASONS OF PEOPLE ON THE SAME WAGON AS HIM?

And now ask yourselves how confused Reck should have been about what I meant.

WE ALL CONFUSED BRO. WTF j00 TALKIN BOUT?

Reck, I forgot, do you skim and not really read stuff as town or as scum?

No Thor, it isn't specific enough. And I'm too lazy to go back and reread the entire thread to try to follow your line of thinking. My comments in bold green.

[Pine]

Reck led the D1 lynch on scum, Thor. I'm not putting it past him to be a bus, but we're not lynching him with much more solid suspicions on Uphill and Soda. And you.

[Pine]

Grimm is Lurky McLurker from Lurkerton. He's at least apologetic about it. He's tunnelled pretty hard on Soda, but for good reasons that I agree with. Read 1054. I think he's maybe Town, but his lack of thorough content makes him a bit of a blank spot.

[Pine]

I led the Sleepy wagon, Thor. I still think he's scum, and I keep rolling a natural 1 on my Will save to disbelieve the illusion of a Town flip on him.

[Pine]

If Furc were capable of a fake Miller claim, he'd be capable of not being this obvscum. Either way he's Town.

[Pine]

Sorry Thor. I'm reasonably sure that scum lie within {Uphill, Soda, Thor} and we're getting close to deadline. Everything you've said so far is consistent and fits together right, and it almost feels...I don't know, calling it "too consistent" sounds cliche. The plus side of this is that if you flip Town, then the doubts about all the work you've done go away, and we can really home in on scum.

Unvote
Vote: Thor

Yates, you are a noob. And your stubborn refusal to improve or even recognize that you need to improve makes you kinda dumb.

[Pine]

Sorry Thor. I'm reasonably sure that scum lie within {Uphill, Soda, Thor} and we're getting close to deadline. Everything you've said so far is consistent and fits together right, and it almost feels...I don't know, calling it "too consistent" sounds cliche. The plus side of this is that if you flip Town, then the doubts about all the work you've done go away, and we can really home in on scum.

Oh dear gawd, I've committed the scumtell of "presenting reasoning" and "having a logical thought process that can be followed".
My payment is - 'after death we can trust your reads...but we shan't trust them just yet due to you needing death'.

What is this gak? (I'd be careful about calling Yates dumb with that as your vote reasoning, natch - at least Yates calls his tells scummy and probably believes it)
If I call it gut, will that soothe the sting of your buttsoreness?

Unvote: Reck
Vote: Grimm

I'm also down with an Uphill lynch.
I oppose the Thor derp wagon.

[Pine]

You need to remove Soda from your Town category. He was NOT a counterwagon to the scumlynch. The Soda and Triangle wagons grew side by side out of RVS. The wagon on me was the counter, and the difference between my wagon and Soda's is that mine was a last-ditch effort as we neared lynch, not a secondary wagon that had been there all along. You also left Thor out of your list, which immediately throws out your PoE argument against Yates.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: Uphill

Soda, Uphill, Thor. Any of these lynches is acceptable to me. If Furc didn't hammer, I did.