Newbie 1198: Mafia on Holiday (Game Over)

[Zenatsu]

I'm under heavy fire.

Thursday is null-town.

You are the 3rd replacement for your slot.


As of Now I need to make a defense against the last statement against myself from Thursday. Which is why I am under some hot fire.

[Zenatsu]

First I was like, "Wait a sec, didn't I get this game?" And then I realized I got 89 and 92, not 98. Silly me.

So, you're under fire because of the last statement against you, or you're under fire because you need to make a defense against the last statement? Just trying to understand that last line a little better.

Both really. Mainly because I see the logic and truth in TA's post, however I need to disperse his reasons to call me scummy.

Essentially I'm being pegged as a scum partner with Rayfrost, which isn't entirely true. To not make a cliff-hanger, I've sided with rayfrost, I've gone against rayfrost, as well as BBmolla, for and against. I tend to side with the cases that make the most sense or is logical given the circumstances. Which is why you may see me flop a bit (mostly due to confusion). A lot of the new players who were town didn't particularly act very town, which allowed thew scum team to.

However this is all currently baseless, though you can see it clearly. I still need to make a case contradicting TA to prove that I am town. Otherwise I am the next lynch.

[Zenatsu]

You sound rather...defeated. Like you're just putting up a rebuttal just to refute it rather than to try and keep yourself alive.

Hmm I thought I hit the submit button... Guess not.

It is not a sound of defeat, I fully agree with what TA presented. Its ture, however I am not scum. I must prove to TA that I am not scum, given my actions from each of the day's lynches. I set myself up pretty badly, but I did not think I Would have made it this far. Now I need to justify each of my actions and prove to Thursday, and you, that I am not scum.

But, I've got to get back into the spirit of the game. and with TA V/LA, I would be waiting for a while.

I'll be working on it. I'm not too fond with working around cashe's.

[Zenatsu]

You sure you don't have any questions for me at all yet? THis ain't the Zen and Angel show, after all, and I can't imagine that you don't have SOMETHING to ask me.

I can not ask you things that brinatoo has stated, I can not ask you things that askesis has stated. You are new, and therefore I have nothing on you. I am waiting for you to ask me questions.

Speaking of which:

note: I removed random fluff from the quote and kept to the real question.

I did notice that post 148 of Zen's is where he places some sort of hard suspicion on TA. I didn't see any suspicions of him from you prior to that, so do you think you can remember why you suspected him then?

Hmm what page was this on? you said you were up to page 7, so I'll dig around and see if I can refresh my train of thought. If it was early in the game (Day 1) then it was probably something he said, or the way he was acting that day that put up some red flags.

[Zenatsu]

Post #153 - Page 7

I choose TA because hes pushing the L-1 vote on DBK, and I dont really find his case doing so enough to warrent a L-1 vote. If you think otherwise then the hammer vote should be just as spotty.

TA pretty much claims DBK scum in post Post 120. I feel the only reason he voted was because of how the CLT is a scumtell. Also implying in said post TA is not very confident in his vote for DBK. Why he voted anyways is beyond me.

Post 126 from TA consists of his "Reason" to pust DBK's L-1 vote. He wants to pressure DBK into a claim and 'have clear reads on'. But couldn't he have just asked DBK anyways? I feel the answer would not have varied greatly.

This is cut-and-dry. TA wants DBK's claim. What he will do with this claim, only time will tell

Tis why I chose him, in that state of time.

[Zenatsu]

I agree with you on that Brin point. After my last reading of his ISO I did not feel any more enlightened about his role within the game. Askesis' doc lynch really looked bad on him but Brin's play did not look particularly town, nor did it look particularly scum.

About the Askesis post you showed me: There is no denying that it is a very well-thought out, logical, and pro-town post, and so is probably town. However there is still a possibility that he's scum (look at RayFrost, he did have some pro-town looking posts too but he turned out scum) so I think the issue you're looking at here is simply that Askesis is a better poster than I am. In that case I can't make any defense against that.

In earlier days, such a reasoning (A is more pro-town looking than B therefore I vote B!) would not suffice, but there are only two choices here so I couldn't blame you if you vote me for that.

===---===---===

So since Zen already replied, here are my thoughts after that ISO read.

Zen is scummier than Brin. 3 arguments:

ARGUMENT 1

Townlynch wagons.

ARGUMENT 2

ISOs.

Ray Iso 2: Zen is town, zen's not revealing meta does not read scum, etc, askesis is focusing too much on zen, etc.
Ray Iso 18, 37: Zen is town.
Ray Iso 38, 72: Strongest town reads, Askesis and Zen.
Ray Iso 105: Zen still town.
Ray Iso 117: Zen most town, Brin most scummy out of Zen/TA/Brin.

Zen's Isos:
Earlier Isos 60, 63, 65: Zen was certain that Ray is town.
Later Isos 98, 101, 102: Ray is so scummy.

To me it looked like they were a scumteam trying to protect each other in the early game. But Zen seemed to be bussing Ray when it the entire atmosphere went towards a Ray lynch.

ARGUMENT 3

Zen - Brin interaction.

That whole drama of Zen calling Brin names, "trolling", etc. I feel that it was a smokescreen to divert attention. The whole banter was unnecessary and only served to confuse. I have no idea why you would even want to bring the definition of "troll" to this topic.

Argument 1:
You have no idea how bad I feel about that. But if you honestly read their defenses, you can see the logic behind my reasons to lynch. in a case-by-case point. I poked at the weakest parts of someone's defense/claim. If they could not convince me they were town, well, I voted them. I had a lynch where I was letting rayfrost manipulate my vote, but I had to stop flopping or it would have looked even more scummy. Oh which lynch was that >.<

Argument 2:
If you're using the fact that ray is pointing me as town, and using that as a partner connection. It makes better sense that ray would bus his partner rather than protect him, to look more town in the end. If mafia bus their partner, and then the flip is scum, it practically becomes auto-town points unless someone can spot a mafia connection between the too (its easy to make it obvious).

Also, I thought ray was town, his posting made sense in a lot of cases, and i could not tag him as scum (Hes a more advanced player than I). but later down the road i just started seeing him a scum, and partnered with BBmolla at that. Im not sure what set me off. it was possibly the process of elimination that lead me to the thought, but I could not find incriminating posts from him.

The way I see it, is that ray was using me to get some town cred if I flipped town. he possibly thought I would be a next lynch subject. But I appear to be scum on everyone's radar around the time. Look at molla, IIRC he hasn't pinned me as a full scum subject, and he has never paired me with anyone in a partner relations. I Called molla scum because he poked people without giving information himself. But that is his style. He trusts himself, and himself only. Which is a valid mindset to play, but it makes you look scummy to people who say "All town must give all reads/cases at all times", which i think its stupid. Easy Scum hiding grounds.

Argument 3:

a diversion? You can't call what I was doing "Trolling". I was very more or less aggressive to get him to partake int he game. You know he wasn't doing anything, nothing he said was content, it was all fluff, just to show he was there. Could I have not insulted him? Sure, but that is the way I play. I expect a lot of people to not like it, it angers them, and then gives me what I want. Information.

So what is confusing about the whole slam against brin? I did that same thing to askesis when he tunneled the shit out of me. In fact if you take any notice, he tunneled me so hard he practically ignore everything else. He was set on DBK, and Zenatsu. The whole CLT (Cop lying thing) was bullshit in itself, now that I am a bit more seasoned in the ways of mafia (Still a noob, no doubt). The more I look at the past, the more I see the asesis/brin slot scummy. I don't see you as scum much anymore as I read through the caches'.

Anything else my dear?

---

@voided:
I've been insulting and aggressive to Askesis and Brinatoo. Askesis was mainly agitation to myself repeating the same information. Brin, well, he started it, i pressed him harder and he broke. Was rather funny actually.

[Zenatsu]

Deadline is in two weeks. I suggest we take this week to re-read, and build some cases on everyone (me and TA are just going to fight each other at this point), then next week we throw down the votes.

in a nutshell:
This week: Read the game over, make assumptions, generate new (or old) reads
Next week: Throw down the votes, defend yourself, convene others
last week: Hammer time.

WE WILL LYNCH, NO EXCEPTIONS.

[Zenatsu]

I am failing to understand where you got your formula from.

I cannot ask YOU what someone else has posted. Because they are not YOUR thoughts. Ergo, we need YOU to ask us questions so we can get a better understanding of where you are coming from.

If we asked you "What do you think about this post from your predecessor" we will only get speculation. It wont work.

[Zenatsu]

Zen, Post 835: "I am not sure if his confidence in saying I am scum to him saying "Good game Thursdayscum" is... well... adequate. It just strikes me as odd that he wants to vote me, but keeps pushing that you are scum too."
> I changed my mind about this behavior. I originally thought it was a town move to test the waters, but now I think this seemed suspicious. If he were unsure, he could just have said so. However, he repeatedly congratulated me for a "good scum game", but keeps saying I was town. This is a very confusing behavior. I cannot make sense of it

at all

, and it looks scummy.

Brin's basically saying that you're town, but if you're scum then you did a hell of a job convincing him that you're town. Yes, I know it sounds like I'm speaking for someone who left, but it seems pretty clear what he's saying to me.

Also, I assume you mean Brin in regards to "lack of content", because through page 8, at least, askseis (sp) has a good amount of content.

Voided pretty much said it. The way I read it, he was more like "Thursday, I love you, I really fucking hate zen, and hes scum. however, if you are the scum, and hes town. Good Game! Vote zen dammit."

I did a good job pissing brin off. But that's what happens when you get on my aggressive side.

Unfortunately, we haft to keep digging around Thursday. I feel i'm getting a better understanding of who is scum, but I need to do some research. But as far as the brin thing, that is pretty baseless.

Zen: That scum-o-meter sounded like a pain in the ass to update, but I think it might not be a bad idea to do another whirl of it for the two of us now.

Why my dear the SCUUM-O-METER is of no complications to set up at all! No my dear the SCUM-O-METER can be used and changed on the ball! Its easy to see, easy to read, easy to comprehend the thoughts from me! Give it a twist, give it a twirl, the SCUM-O-METER is there for you girl!

Equinox

T-------N-------S
[♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥]♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
THRU DA ROOF!
BURN THE WITCH!

ThursdayAngel

T-------N-------S
[|||||||||||-----]

Voidedmafia

T-------N-------S
[||||||||--------]

Voided's slot

T-------N-------S
[||||||||||||||--]
<Use vertical lines | to indicate where the meter is
or use your own symbol! ♥~!@#$%^&*>

If you would like to make your own SCUM-O-METER! here is the building frame:

Code: Select all

[center]
[color=#FF8000]<Name>[/color]
T-------N-------S
[----------------]
<Use vertical lines | to indicate where the meter is
or use your own symbol! ♥~!@#$%^&*>
[/center] 
Credits of the SCUM-O-METER goes to its original creator, Zenatsu 

[Zenatsu]

Zen, Post 640, about No Lynch: Zen asks about the theory behind a no lynch, and says that it's good for town because it's 1 less town that died. BB counters by saying that it's bad for town because scum gets to pick two kills. Does this indicate that Zen wanted a no-lynch? I think Zen's post had a more town intent to it, rather than a sneaky suggestion to no lynch. There seemed to be a genuine "what is best for town" inquiry. I think this gives a few townie points to Zen.

I asked BBmolla about no lynching because he was pushing really hard about it. I was genuinely confused about the perils of no lynching. But to my memory (not reading back) I do not think the town had lynched its doctor yet. But of we did then it was the day after. I just wanted to know the theory behind "Never no-lynch, ever".

Zen, Post 535: He warns us about voting against Rubicon. Rubicon turned up town. I'm doubting this was a reverse bus (am I using the term correct? I meant that this probably wasn't Zen trying to accrue townie points by trying to prevent a town lynch.) The reason why I feel this is so is that Zen, in a later post, also does the same to Pizza (tells us that Pizza might be town), but also changes his mind even later and says that lynching Pizza who is most likely town will give more info for town. I think what I just said in this paragraph might be a little confusing, but essentially what I'm saying is that Zen seemed to have the best interests for town in mind, in his posts.

When we lynched rubicon, I had a feeling we were 1 of 2 things. 1) town going crazy and killing each other 2) being led by the mafia. So reading on rubi's ISO alone, and looking back at the other lynched we had. I mad the assumption we were about to lynch another town.

In regards to pizza. I was being tossed in "Lynch pizza!! DO ET NOW!" from rayfrost, and "YOU FOOLS!" from pizza. This was the part where I caught myself (being the hammer) flopping between my decisions too much, and I had to be stern on what I wanted to do. But I felt that if we had lynched pizza, it would give us better information than random lynching another player (at the time). It pretty much sold Rayfrost as scum.

Conclusion to the last two paragraphs: Overall, if one takes time to read them, Zen's predictions and arguments seem to be based on a town sentiment. It is unfortunate that Zen still has some scummy traits (argument 1 and 3, as outlined in my attacking post in this day; only argument 2 was rebutted well to turn that point to a Zen=town sentiment), so Zen is definitely not on either extreme of his scum-o-meter.

Voided, I don't have much to ask you since you just replaced in, but please keep posting as you read through the thread. I do feel that your slot is the scummier of the two now though.

Everything I have done was on town sentiment. But not everyone else gave clear town reads. Which lead to mislynched, which lead to our situation today.

---

I think you mean cross-bus.

Haa...This is the kind of position that I hate to be in (doubly so because I've already had one game like this in Newbie 1067, I think), but I'ma just gonna live with it and work around it.

I read this as "HA! I was once a scum walking into a game in this situation before". Also, you were

not

in Newbie 1067.

[Zenatsu]

Also, goddammit, Brin. -_-

Elaborate on this?

Im getting scum reads.

[Zenatsu]

353 - TA didn't have shit on Rubi to drop a L-1 vote on him. If it was anything before, sure whatever. I see a L-1 Vote as being as serious as a hammer vote. He had 2 reasons. 2 very terrible reasons.

Its like saying I'm going to vote you because your avatar sucks and Icantthinkofagoodsecondreasonsohereisomethingelseyousaidthatisbaseless.

If I wanted damage control, it'd be better to be more subtle about.. Slightly WIFOM, but it is a lot better than yelling out, "I HATE MY PREDECESSOR!", don't you think?

Also, goddammit, Brin. -_-

Elaborate on this?

Didn't like his entry into the game at all.

You just became a hypocrite

Also, Voided is giving mixed signals. He has dropped some scummy comments, some null reads. But his diligence to read and analyze gives him a lot of town points. Oppose this to Zen who has been prodded in this day, and I cannot help but ask whether Zen is scum who has already seen the game decided and stacked against Void, and therefore is just laying back.

Truth be told: Tera's Closed beta was last weekend, and yesterday I was out on an interview and looking for a job, The played Mass Effect 3 until I passed out. Before the weekend I had checked and there was no activity so I didn't bother to check until today :X

and to further assess my current lurking, I've been sitting and waiting for voided to actually do something, and still hasn't. All he is doing is pretty much reading post by post and just really agreeing with everything. So far he is leaning me as Town and you as scum. Which, is in contrast to what you believe. So far voided is agreeing with you that I am town, and is tagging you more scum as you tag voided scum.

I hope I explained that coherently enough.

It is time for us to lay down the votes, and start putting our current cases together and get this over before deadline next week.

[Zenatsu]

and to further assess my current lurking, I've been sitting and waiting for voided to actually do something, and still hasn't. All he is doing is pretty much reading post by post and just really agreeing with everything. So far he is leaning me as Town and you as scum. Which, is in contrast to what you believe. So far voided is agreeing with you that I am town, and is tagging you more scum as you tag voided scum.

I hope I explained that coherently enough.

It is time for us to lay down the votes, and start putting our current cases together and get this over before deadline next week.

Come to think of it, if you *were* scum, isn't this the best time for the players to drop down votes? Especially since, in your own words, Voided is leaning with you as Town and me as Scum. I'm sure you said in an earlier post that by now we should probably be voting, but it does look somewhat scummy you know, trying to capitalize on the current readings situation. (And Voided hasn't been just agreeing with everything; he has been questioning some points, blurted out some exclamations, etc. Which can be useful info.)

However, Voided, I do request that you read up more quickly, if possible? I don't think it's fair to start voting when you only know half the story.

If I *were* scum, best time to vote would have been before the crash, or even then, at the start of the recovered game. The latter would be better for scum because motivation is down and the thoughts of people would be (including me) like "Oh, man this game, pfft whaqtever /vote". If I *were* scum, I would have voted already. Everyone is on the defense right now, brin was on the offense at the start of this day.

But you know, do what you want, flop all you wish, I'm hunting scum.

---

Voided the spoiler tag is askesis' 424 post. For your convience:

Well this thread blew up pretty quickly. Sorry for it being a little bit since I posted.

I still think Ziggler is scum, and this claim situation makes it worse. My earlier point of him either "being scum or being a town that's only hurting town" is now magnified. If he is scum, he will be alive. If he's town, there's a decent chance scum will not kill him because we have severe questions about him. Rubicon (I think) made the point about lynching someone else who we think is scummy and save Ziggler for day 2. As I see it, Ziggler is unlikely to be killed at night.

If Ziggler is doc, he will have a chance to save and prevent a kill. Keep in mind, a no-kill would not prove Ziggler as town because of a possible jailor or because he is scum and decides to no-kill in order to improve his town credibility. If we have a cop, he can investigate Ziggler to find out if he's telling the truth or not. However, this will require the cop (if we have one) to out himself on day 2, and in a best case scenario, will confirm a lynch that we are already about to make. I think a cop's investigate will be better used one someone else. When you take into account that a cop claim is more likely to be a fake claim (because of the 75% of the time when there is no cop), it's a real risky proposition, and might just put ourselves in a stickier situation. I really don't think the benefits of this strategy outweigh the cost.

The downside of lynching Ziggler is that we could be lynching a poorly played doctor. By lynching him, we throw away a 1 in 6 shot of Ziggler making a save, assuming he is doctor and he would not be the target of a night kill. By lynching him, at least we will begin to get a clearer picture over the rest of the game, one way or another. Otherwise, we're in pretty much the same state of confusion Day 2 as we are today.

Another big problem we have is that scum have the information advantage. Not only do they know town by default, they now know that Ziggler and Pizza, if not scum themselves, are doctor and VT, respectively. If we change our lynch to somebody else, that's another role claim we are giving away to them. In a two-PR setup, scum will have a 50% chance to either kill or identify the other PR (7 town players less the three claims is a 2 in 4 shot), if Ziggler and Pizza are telling the truth and if our new lynch is not correct.

In summary, I still think Ziggler is the best lynch. I'm not convinced he's doctor, but if he is, it still has some usefulness. He has only hurt town with his play so far. Lynching somebody else gives another role claim away, may lead to lynching someone who is more productive to town, and will still leave us in the same situation tomorrow in regards to Ziggler.

Your first predecessor called all the town slots early hand. In my 835 post I said they were too good of a call to be that accurate (in a nutshell). Im going to turn that around and call that extremely scummy. He knew who was town, because he was scum.

in reply to you being a hypocrite, it was no subtle claim, that was pretty damn obvious. You said

If I wanted damage control, it'd be better to be more subtle about.. Slightly WIFOM, but it is a lot better than yelling out, "I HATE MY PREDECESSOR!", don't you think?

Which is excatly what you did when you said

Also, goddammit, Brin. -_-

sure, go ahead and argue "But I wasn't yelling". Its subtle, you hated your predecessor's entrance. Sorry, but you contradicted yourself you hypocrite.

Also, reading an ISO, voided agrees with me, then agrees with thursday, then disagrees with me, then disagrees with thursday. I want to say hes using the post posts and trying to slip in on our good side by saying "AWH YEA! that was a cool post bro!" when in true light, everything I've done so far was completely and utter shit.

[Zenatsu]

The way I see it, it can go two ways. Depending on how the day starts (those critical 2-4 posts of the day)

1) Scum comes out of the gates with a claim on someone else being scum. Forcing a defense case, and trying to manipulate the 3rd to see the scums reasons and get him on his side. After that, it would become a back and forth between the town and scum going at it until the 3rd can make sense of things, or a cross vote happens.
Result: Scum vs town, with a Scum-Town cross vote

2) Scum acts more passive, and waits for a case to come out before attacking/defending. By this passive play hes putting off slightly just to keep tension up, and while the town is still finding out who is who, it can erupt to a Town vs Town. Then they cross, and its game over.
Result: Town vs Town, with a Town-Town cross vote

The second one sounds a little finniky, but its kinda weird to explain. Basically the scum sits back and lets town fight it out.

[Zenatsu]

@mod: Also, Dammit equinox, i wanted the first. You were supposed to be V/LA dammit!

♥♥♥

[Zenatsu]

I don't know what side of the planet you guys are on, but you were posting whilst I was asleep (about 2am till 4am, from first to last post).

Now... On to me laughing my ass off hysterically at how gullible Thursday is:

*Ahem*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
*GASP*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!

HOLY SCUM ON A SHUMSTICK! Voided you have PROVED yourself to be absolute scum!

And here is why:

Voided just pulled a very obvious WIFOM that I've ever fucking seen.

Post 94 - the set-up.

Voided wants you to at the

very least

unvote.
If he gets you to vote me then the 2nd phase starts. Using empty promises and Pre-phased annotations to bolster the belief that voided is using town intentions.

The Following few posts

are added fluff, figuring if he has a chance to further push on to read as town, this is the best chance, and even acknowledges hes about to spam post.

Post 98 is as follows:

I understand your worries of a quickhammer, but I do feel this is largely a win-win for you.

A.) You can ignore my plan, revote me, and let Zen hammer me like I imagine he intends to do, and whichever of you is scum can ride away with the victory

OR

B.) You vote him, wait a day-ish (or at least until you know I'm here and I've looked at the thread), and then revote me after that. Again, Zen's still probably gonna vote me when he gets up anyways, and if you're scum you can then just quickhammer me to oblivion, and Zen can't do any shenanigans if he's scum since I'm not voting and your vote's on him.

Pretty clear-cut, but if you want me to prove my towniness, this is a plan that, while risky, will win us the game. 'Course, it all boils down to if you trust me or not, but meh.

In fact, I'm extending this to both of you. Hell, cross-vote if you want to. No matter what, this game ends today, so it just depends on how you want it to go.

So, like I said: Fate is in your hands, Zenatsu, ThursdayAngel.

This is the plan, right in front of you, not even buttered up to sound like its anything less.

He wants you to vote me, so he can NOT quick-hammer, then ride away with the belief that he is completely town.

Proof?

Post 102. The Execution

After Thursday votes me, Voided can simply sit there and wait for me to do nothing (since he assumes I am completely AFK for the whole time being)

Now that he has Thursday wrapped around his finger and in utter dismay, he makes him unvote again, smart. Avoiding the quick hammer completely.

post 106. The follow through

Voided is self confirm claiming he is town. With only 1 reason "I didn't quick hammer, derp derp"

Which is excatly what you want, but you can't self confirm. Only the other players can call you a confirmed town.

So get the fuck off your high horse, you haven't won yet.

VOTE: Voidedmafia

Thursday, if you don't know what WIFOM (wine in front of me) is, let me know.

[Zenatsu]

By the way, the board is in PST, 2 hours behind me (I am CST (GMT - 6)). so that means 1:00am board time is 3:00am for me :X

[Zenatsu]

Its a far cop.

[Zenatsu]

fair*

[Zenatsu]

Yes: essentially it means that someone caught me doing something wrong.
Its a fair cop

[Zenatsu]

At least I lived to the last day.


first game on mafia scum

i still played like ass Q.Q