Mini 1320--Redwall Mafia: Spirit Lore (The Sun Has Set)

[Korlash]

All right! Yeah... Finally...

I read the thread and had some conclusions/results way back when the bugger Quadz stoleded my replacement slot! *shakes fist* but it's fine because I'm here anyway. Sadly, I've forgotten everything so I'll need to read up again quickly. I have the day off and three games to dig into so I'll have something tangible up sooner or later...

Actually, this one isn't too long so maybe I'll dig into it now... I have five minutes.

Little bit about me, first book I ever read was Pearls of Lutra... Started collecting the series immediately after that, still have it somewhere. I attribute my entire writing 'career' to good ol' Brian Jacques... So I guess you can all blame him, lolz... >.> Long story short, bit of a fanboy... <3 all badgers... yet hate the hares for some reason... I don't know, something about them hopping along all militaristicly speaking in their British slangs wot wot... Why don't they go back to Russia! *shakes fist again*

Sorry, right... was reading...

[Korlash]

All right, I'm done, more or less, with everything up to this page. I have one long freaking post that I will edit and try and sort out into a more managable thing... But first, the TL;DR part since that is what everyone wants:

Scum:
V2V
Rat
Ghostlin
Z-Something

More on the two side:
Hiplop
Junpei
Newman

Didn't actually notice during the read up:
Riceball
Peregrine

Unvote:, Vote: V2V

Mod: is it ok to unvote and vote on the same line, or do they have to be on separate lines as well?

I really should get around to reading the rules sometime...

Per Voting and Lynching rule #1, either is permissible. The main thing is that votes need to be in bold or vote tags, and I need to know which player is being voted. ~DY

[Korlash]

Post seems to be too long to post at all once.. keep getting a 505 internal server error... I'll try breaking it up...

Spoiler: Stuff on V2V

Yuck. As hiplop already pointed out, what's wrong with L-2? I'm seeing scum intent in either defending his scumbuddy or trying to gain towncred by defending a townie. Town intent not so much. Maybe afraid of a quicklynch, but really a L-2 quicklynch just outs 2(worst case 1) scum. Yup, happy with my vote.

What about Ghostlin, he said the exact same thing. Do you only see scum intent there as well? And no, the worst case scenario of a quicklynch is that it could cost us two, maybe even three straight mislynches. It's all well and good for chastising a player who hasn't 'seen the light' so to speak but don't be outright wrong about it.

I dont think there is a problem with a different opinion. It's more that you can't explain why. I'm going to ask you again, why is L-2 this early dumb? The only problem a townie would have with it would be a quicklynch, but the scum we catch makes up for it. On the other hand as scum it's far more reasonable to be scared of L-2.

SO ONCE AGAIN, STOP BITCHING ABOUT THE PLAYERS AND ANSWER THE QUESTION. EXPLAIN WHY L-2 IS DUMB.

also a strawman defense from what I know is what you just did. As in attacking MS players meta instead of dealing with what we are actually saying

lololol this just makes me laugh. He 'yells' at him for not answering the question he just asked two posts ago without Newman getting a chance to respond. And yes, I know you asked him once before but he did technically answer you that time so repeating it was simply for more clarification. To go straight into caps lock because he didn't post after you asked him again is just funny. "OMG you haven't had time to post and answer me so I'll yell at you now!!! That will net me answers faster!" lolololol

And no, Newman had been dealing with what you guys were saying but he added the addendum to it which you focused on, instead of his actual stuff. Which... if I remember correctly, IS the definition of Strawman. Now do I disagree entirely with it? No, good play by you guys. But don't accuse someone of doing something when the very act of that accusation causes you to do it as well. It's stupid play, and you're scummy for doing it...

That's exactly my point. In that post you HAVEN'T GIVEN A REASON AT ALL. Saying that being this close to a lynch this early isn't a reason. Why are we too close to a lynch? How is L-2 even close to a lynch, considering any attempt at a quicklynch should be squelched anyway.

But let's say you're right. It is too early to have somebody at L-2. So no pressure on the guy who I think is suspicious? We have 10 days, so we're going to let them wait 8 before pressuring them? Totes bro.

And lastly don't misrep me. I'm not attacking you because you expressed a different opinion (ie L-2 is a bad thing). I'm attacking you because you haven't sufficiently provided a reasoning for the idea that can be attributed to a townie. Capisce?

First part seems valid, second part... is okay... Third part makes no sense... You just said yourself a 'town reason' someone might say what Newman did (The quicklynch thing) You disagreed with it, but the idea still exists. So what, you just want Newman to repeat something you just attacked? "I'm going to attack your reasons, then demand you give them to me!" Stupid... scummy... Either attack the reasons or demand he give them to you, not both.

His unfounded alarm on placing somebody at L-2 by page three is scummy because it stinks of either scum trying to defend his scumbuddy or defend a townie to gain towncred.

"Or a player legitimately worried about a quicklynch, but since I disagree with that I won't even allow myself to consider it as a possibility." :\ I mean hell, you don't even show him options he could be doing instead, it's like you don't actually care if he is scum or not, just want him lynched for his beliefs... I think Riceball is right, you are a mafia racists

To RBT: read 120. Also, so what if you do get targeted for having a different playstyle? That's a different point altogether. Whether or not it is true, Newman failed to address the points raised against him, choosing instead to complain about the discrimination between playstyles (whether true or not).

Lies. He may not have addressed them sufficiently, but he did address them. The complaining was a side tangent, not his entire focus. It's you lot that made it a bigger focus then it needed to be, and while that alone wouldn't be too bad, you let the actual issue slip into obscurity while you piled this bullshit on top of him.

First: he would fucking say he doesnt like L-2 because he was afraid of a quicklynch.
Second: he wouldn't be afraid of L-2 causing the day early because like Pappum's Rat says, here in MS we build bandwagons as pressure. After spending a year on site he should know that by now. His fear of a quicklynch is unfounded.

lolololol

First: You're right, This is the only actual valid point against him, he hasn't actually said it. BUT, that still doesn't cover why he is scum for it. Not producing a town reason does not equate to being scum. YOU have to come up with that reasoning yourself. And if you use the fucking word "Could be" in your reasoning, you haven't sufficiently explained anything. Give me a real reason he is scum, show me evidence that what he did actually came from an anti town perspective and leave the hypothetical guesses at home mate. "Could be trying to look good" bull fucking shit, show me some evidence. "Could be protecting a buddy" bull fucking shit, show me some partner links to support it.

Second: LOLOLOLOLOL MS meta = he is scum for bringing up something that is OBVIOUSLY FUCKING TRUE SINCE I'M DOING IT RIGHT NOW!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL <- shift key, don't use freaking caps lock.

Don't you dare say he is scum because he doesn't follow 'MS policy' that's a shit attack and only justifies the fact some people do feel discriminated against here. Keep the fucking politics out of it mate.

*Disclaimer: The use of the word 'fucking' in this post was only to illustrate frustration and should in no way be taken as harsh insults or whatever. I <3 all of you, especially V2V because he's a fun guy to pick on. =DDDDD -smiley face-

Thus there is no town intent for being scared about L-2.

Mislynch, followed by a mislynch, followed by a mislynch? Sounds like town intent to me mate...

[Korlash]

Spoiler: Rat Stuff

The fact that you are so adamant about someone being at L-2 is the problem. As I have already said, people are going to get wagoned D1, thats the way D1 works, it is a fundamental fact, and you condemning it so vigorously makes you look like scum.

Codeword: "I believe something that you don't and since you won't change your mind you are scum"... Just because the day works that way doesn't mean every player has to like it, it does not however, make them scum for it. Pushing the easy lynch on day one based on what can only be described as policy (i.e. Player doesn't agree with policy, thus must be lynched) is a scum easy out.

Because people who are familiar with MS.net know that large non-lynching wagons spring up on D1. They know that these not-so-serious wagons will die down once discussion has run it's course. Considering that Newman has a year of experience here at MS.net, he knows that this is likely the case here as well. Experienced scum has motivation to come to the "aid" of someone on one of these kinds of wagons because it could make them look better and more protown. Experienced town has no reason to try to make themselves look better.

lolololol... Player uses MS meta to defend himself, so he is scum, but it's fine for me to use MS meta to attack him. lolololol

How many people are on this site? You can personally tell me how each and every one of them thinks?

How many games are run on this site (in a year, since that is the number you threw out), you can tell me with a straight face every single one of them works the exact same way?

And what the hell is the 'experienced scum would know to come to the aid of people to make themselves look better'... Newman got waggoned up the ass for doing that, what the hell is experienced about that? "I have experience, thus will do something that gets my lynched, in order to look better"... Doesn't make any sense mate. And what, sitting by letting something you disagree with happen is how you define 'experienced town'... yeah, totally pushing the easy lynch here with BS.

(at the end of my post)
Then the jump by rat to the contentless player, once again evidence of pushing the easy lynch... Some more stuff... la la la. and I enter. YAY ME! Hi me! *waves* ANd more stuff that happened since I've been doing this... sad...

Spoiler: Ghostlin Stuff

No one else vote for BV. L-2 is perfect for right now. I will see voting to L-1 at this juncture a scum claim due to the fact that if BV is scum, he can prematurely end the day by hammering himself. Thank you.

lololol... "anyone not voting BV is scum" one post later "Vote for BV and you're scum!" lolololol....

Bandwagoning someone and then telling others not to vote them destroys the entire purpose of the bandwagon. Saying anyone who votes that player from that point on is scum gives him an out to both get off the wagon without cause and place his vote elsewhere, again without cause. Total scum move.

If you want a serious place to put some of your votes, I recommend you check out vijay's ISO for your consideration.

Actually, this is sound advice... V2V is always scum. *Squinty eyes*

There is no protown reason not to be voting BV if you don't have any harder suspicion. There is nothing BV's done that reeks of Town or Town play. In fact, Junpei pointed this out to me, and I had to reread what BV said--which is never a good sign. If someone drops an obv-Town tell in front of me, I usually cling to it.

So, the only reason you wouldn't vote BV at the moment (ignoring the fact it's L-2 and I want BV to squirm and not end the day prematurely) is you were afraid of the accountability storm of being on that wagon. If you're town, there's not much to be afraid of being accountable for your actions.

Codeword: I'm town for doing this AND for telling you not to! and the whole "I want him to squirm even though I'm defending the act of not voting him" is utter bullshit, you can't do both.

I call bullshit. I've always found the shorter the Day, the worse it is for town, so I acutally think a self hammer is a VALID concern.
EBWOP: Also, the odds of catching scumbuddies through Day 1 play is roughly zero, so I'm really wondering what crap logic you're using there, Zdenek.

Only if you don't try mate.

Does this mean Ghostlin actually had a 'scum read' on BV? That's how I'm reading it... Doesn't this mean his call for no more votes would be fake? Who cares how fast the wagon is or short the day is if scum dies, especially in a game this small... Don't get me wrong, longer day = more for me to chew on tomorrow, but one scum dead = a win in my book any day. Either Ghost is lying now with his concerns of a scum self hammer or he lied earlier when he said he didn't want more votes on the person he actually thinks is scum... Or both times, cause he's... scum...

[Korlash]

Spoiler: Zdenek Issues

What we've got here is Junpei attacking Pappums' attack on Newman as though Newman's play is not indicative of scum, which means that should be able to understand Newman'spoint of view, but then turning around and questioning Newman on it. So either the question is disingenuous or his argument against Pappum's argument is.

I'm not one to defend Junpei here. I operate under the same style of play, I just do it better, so I'm sure he can cover that himself. I am wondering why you took two different questions and tried to say it made them ingenuous. Questioning Rat why Newman's stance was scummy and wanting to know Newman's reasoning more clearly are in no way the same issue. You can dislike a players attack while still questioning the person they attacked, it's actually called 'proper town play'... Only, with more content then Junpei has been giving... *Squinty eyes* You don't give a pass to people who the people you suspect are scum without risking a loss for inept scrutiny.

Except that the argument against Newman is not a playstyle argument. There is possibly scum intent in his actions. If Newman can produce evidence that this something that he usually thinks when an early wagon pops up, then that is a partial defense for his behaviour.

I'm still waiting for that, by the way.

There is possible scum intent in what he did but no one has actually shown any of it to be likely. Other than saying "He could be doing this..." No one has shown why what Newman did actually came from scum. Everyone just assumes that since he won't give a valid reason town would do it, the attacks are justified, and they are not. It is the responsibility of the attacker to prove the person is scum before the person has to prove their innocence. No one has done this, so focusing on Newman's lack of town proof is wrong and only furthers to suggest the wagon actually has scum on it.

Junpei's questions make it seem like he is just trying to cause trouble.

Case in fucking point, "His questions could be scummy but I won't say why, thus I can't be wrong!!!!!!" lolololol Backup your attacks mate.

BS. When you question someone's attacks on another person, you are implicitly defending that person, but even if you want to contend that you weren't, I still don't buy that you're honestly questioning both Pappum's and Newman.

This is true, which is why you can't afford not to also question the person you have been accidentally defending. So Junpei does this, and all you can come up with is "I don't buy it..."

Wow...

Spoiler: Everybody Else

What's the most important trait to have in a mafia game?

Self-awareness, know where your strengths and weaknesses lie and play the game accordingly. You don't have to be smart if you're clever, and you don't have to be a good detective if you can speak fluent bullshit.

Right I'm starting to remember now, i was glad I didn't get the first replacement because Ghost is scum... Ha ha ha, lucky me... The slot is a death sentence waiting to happen.

The thing that frustrates me about games here on MS is the fact that everyone plays the same way. And when anyone dares have a different opinion/POV, they immediately get wagoned.

Yeah, I hear you Bro, but that's how mafia works. If five players think A and one player thinks B, the B player stands out and thus nets himself pressure for it. The game of mafia literally is defined as 'Mob rules'. The trick is to be smarter than the mob, like me, that way you use the group mindset to your win conditions advantage.

If I can add my two cents here, the thing about quick bandwagons in a game is that they rarely actually end in a lynch. Once 3-4 people have voted, there is usually enough going on that another wagon will soon pop up (with actual cause behind it this time) and allow the early bandwagon to fall apart. You get to see how the people jumping on the wagon act, how the people staying off the wagon act, and how the person being wagon reacts. It's all a good way to get a foot hold in the game.

Your strawman esquw defense is weird tho, gonna sleep on this to decide whether youre scum or town

I'm interested in just how the "I disagree with how you guys have gone about this" is strawmanesque... Or are you talking about the "Free-thinkers always get bandwagoned" part? Cause if that's the case, you're the one strawmanning here.

Google 'succinct' and then answer my plea, if you will.

I'm sad to admit I actually did this... *sigh* Apparently I was wrong, it wasn't Latin for 'suck eggs'...

Pappums.. why is saying that people reaching L-2 in the first few pages of a game is bad more likely to come from scum than town? I expect reasoning from both the "scum motive" and the "not town motive" side of things.

*sigh* you seem to be playing both sides... But you did take a solid stance on Newman, more or less... getting a fractured and uneasy town vibe at the moment.

Wow... didn't know we had a post length limit now... I will try not to do this again...

So yeah, long story short:

V2V:

Pushing a scumtastic vote and 'case' on Newman without actually showing evidence why what he did/said came from scum. Dwelling on the fact Newman hasn't actually said the word "quicklynch" as reason he should be lynched. Clearly pushing the 'easy lynch' on a player that seems incapable of defending against the shit attacks he is flinging. Needs to die, asap.

Rat:

Also pushing the scumtastic crap attacks on Newman and fueling the obvious 'easy lynch'. His jump to Peregrine follows suit, although I'll admit I haven't looked at it nearly as closely as I have Newman's... Still, I don't expect it to look anymore legitimate than his Newman shit did.

Ghostlin:

seemingly protecting himself with his fake vote/don't vote early on. Sadly replaced out too early for me to continue the read...

Zdenek:

Doesn't actually back up his attacks, says "There is scum motive" or 'What you did seems scummy' without saying why. Push against Junpei was pure crap.

Junpei:

I don't like how he seems to entirely be about asking the questions, not enough using the information he gains there. Could be playing both sides, but I get more of a lazy town feel.

Hiplop:

Also a lazy town feel. His early mention attitude towards the Newman thing seemed very fencesittingy and his continuing ignorance of the issue makes me pause, but nothing really screams scum to me.

Newman:

I think he would have this stance and thus create this result regardless of his alignment, but since I feel the attacks on him ARE scum motivated I assume he is town. I have seen no scum move from him nor anyone actually illustrate one, unless I see a change there he shall be town.

Riceball:

Seems to have been following the Newman thing, but not actually commenting on it (The post about agreeing with the discrimination for instance). Doesn't seem very townlike to sit by and let something of that scale continue without a stated opinion or some additional content. Sadly, nothing from.. her? posts actually made me think or want to respond so I'm null right now.

Peregrine:

I shall be looking into the case against him shortly, I just wanted to get caught up first. I'll hold off on an actual opinion until after I look into that.

[Korlash]

LOL so you call bullshit on my case against him without even looking into it? ROFLMAO.

I never called Bullshit on it, simply said it fit the pattern of someone pushing easy lynches to jump from Newman to Peregrine. Are you feeling guilty because your case is bullshit?

1. How many times am I going to have to explain this? THE FACT THAT BIG NON-LYNCHING WAGONS HAPPEN ON DAY 1 IS NOT AN OPINION IT IS A FACT. CONSIDERING HE HAS BEEN HERE A YEAR, HE SHOULD KNOW THAT. HE DOSENT HAVE TO LIKE THAT BIG NON-LYNCHING WAGONS HAPPEN, BUT HE SHOULD KNOW THAT THEY DO AND THAT BITCHING ABOUT THEM IS UNNECESSARY BECAUSE... GUESS WHAT?... THEY DONT OFTEN END IN LYNCHES. SO IF HE KNOWS THAT THEY HAPPEN... AND THEN PRETENDS LIKE A LYNCH IS GOING TO HAPPEN... HE HAS BEEN DISHONEST ABOUT DEFENDING A PLAYER, AND THAT IS A SCUMTELL. HENCE I THINK HE IS SCUM.

funny, V2V has been attacking him because he never said anything about fearing a lynch would happen, yet you say he has... Which is it? One of you must be lying. And I think I get your point, you feel that he should know this (regardless of his alignment) thus actually doing that only mean he is defending someone. logical thinking I suppose, and good thing you have no ability to look into it too. Man, lucky you with your unable to defend against logic.

Do you have any evidence what he did/said was actually in someone's defense, or is that just the speculative conclusion you decided to roll with?

2. Where did I defend myself with MS meta?
If he hadnt been called out on his unneeded defense and bv had flipped town at some point he could have gotten townpoints for defending him. However, people did call him out and therefore doesnt. And if he disagrees with the way people play on MS.net, he can take is to MD. Oh, and he still hasnt provided meta supporting him that he defends people who dont need it as town.

You didn't. People attacked Newman for using meta to defend himself and then you attacked him USING MS meta. So it's a double standard, he is scum for doing it but you aren't. Also, just noticed your wording:

Considering that Newman has a year of experience here at MS.net, he knows that this is likely the case here as well.

Should read "Newman should know that is the case" but it doesn't. You blatantly claim that you know how he thinks which either means you have some intimate knowledge of him or this entire line of thinking is bullshit you made up.

Back to the point: If shit happened, he could have done this? IF? If Newman was lynched and flipped town, you could try to spin it in some way that you weren't scum that orcastrated it... Doesn't really work, that line of argument, does it. If something did happen, player B would have done things this way, thus he is scum... If... If... If... Yeah, why don't you leave the "if" out of it and focus on real events and not the shit you make up.

All your evidence on Newman is stuff you think would have happened in some parallel universe, if you're not scum bullshitting this case you're an idiot for thinking it's real evidence. I prefer to assume you're scum over an idiot since I more than meet this game's quota for fools and unintellectuals thank you.

Calling out a player for posting non-content is "pushing an easy lynch"? Since when? LMAO.

Yes, going after the, pardon my usage here, lurker is an easy out for anyone. If a wagon forms, sweet, if the player posts adequate defense you look better for causing him to contribute. A win/win for any scum.

And please argue why town would do it so we can come full circle and make this exactly like the Newman case just with you on the receiving end... Then I'll push the same shit you did, you argue against it, and my case on you is justified by your own words... Aren't I clever... >.> *thumbs up*

[Korlash]

Also, while I understand your "MS meta argument is crap" you have to understand a key fact: If Newman knows what pappums says he knows (that bandwagons will take place and dissolve very likely and often early in games) then his action is very suspect. Have you looked at how many games Newman has played? This isn't a matter of "site meta" to me, this is a matter of Newmans' empirical knowledge, and how he is applying it (or perhaps not applying it).

Has Rat?

...

See i already covered this with my "undefendable logic" sarcasm. We've lost too many games to be able to actually look at Newman's meta. So the question is, how much has Rat actually looked into it. has he ever questioned the number of games Newman has been in, or if he has seen this before? I'm not the one making an assumption here, rat is. He should be the one you're questioning on this, not me.

Wait, why are you questioning me instead of him?

Finally, I am not lazy. If you don't believe me, I will direct you to Newbie 1119, feel free to ISO me in that game. The only difference from my play there and now is that I am much more focused, and filter a lot of my notes and thoughts out of my posts for strategic and sanity reasons (and I have some different philosophy on how to catch scum, but that's unrelated). I work very hard.

That seems a little jumpy. I call you town and you correct me and direct me towards meta... But regardless, I do not mean 'lazy' in the terms of you aren't working hard, just not seeming to show it. Since we play roughly the same way, I find it lazy that you aren't a more dominant voice in this game and that seems to be because you are 'filtering your posts'... don't get that, but fine.

Korlash, to be clear: You think V2V is scum because they seem to think that Newman is scum (or, rather pretending to think) because of a bad reason? I just would ask one thing before I consider voting V2V: How sure are you that V2V knows it is an inadequate reason?

Hmm... No, I can't agree with this assessment because it's too vague. It's closer to I think V2V is scum because he is pushing a case on Newman without a reason. He has never given actual evidence that Newman is scum, merely played up the fact there is no evidence he is town. They are not the same. Furthermore, his push on Newman amounts to no more than a policy lynch really, yet he tries to pretend it's actually against 'scum'.

So how am I so sure he knows it's an inadequate reason? because there isn't a reason in which to be adequate. It's a fake case and while town may not always push correct or even good cases, they never push fake ones.

Also I think Korlash read the game before he got his role PM, so he gets no town points for the extensive replace-in post.

Yes, I already said this... or at least I think I said this... I tried to replace in three separate times before actually getting in because I legitimately wanted to play this game. I'm not asking for any town points because I don't need it nor expect it. I simply ask that what I say not be ignored just because it is lengthy or some irrelevant shit like that. =D Other than that we can all get along fine and kill each other in peace and love!

@Korlash- Never lazy, which is why he is suspect to me.

Are you referring to Junpei here?

[Korlash]

pedit: I don't need to question rat because it is clear where the "newman should know site norms" came from: Newmans' joindate. It's too obvious to bother questioning on.

An arbitrary number = scum... No. If anyone should actually look into Newman's past games to justify their claims it's Rat. You letting him off over a joindate is dumb play on your part. He is calling someone scum over a logical assumption, if you don't see a reason for him to actually look into his own logic before pushing those claims... well... I can't help you...

How do you know how I play? I can tell already that we play differently just based on your attacks on certain people.

You question people regardless of what alignment you feel they may be because you are open to collecting all information you can. It's an overall... vague... summary of playstyles. It's why I don't get how little you use the info you gather.

I'll take a closer look a V2V in ISO to see what you mean, I didn't really take your spoilered assessments too seriously because there was not enough conclusions, they all just acted as standalone premises.

They were all simple responds toward posts as if I were playing at the time and giving responds at the time. less about conclusion, more about integrating myself into the game and building my own reads.

[Korlash]

I really should deal with my closer deadline game but I really... really don't want to delve into cached pages... so I'll stay here, where it is fun and fresh and safe and no one wants to hurt me... >.> *squinty eyes*

So the issue here seems to be that V2V said that (I'm assuming he meant "he wouldN'T fucking say), or rather implied that, Newman was worried about a quicklynch, when in his initial post he didn't say anything about a quicklynch being the issue (rather the issue is that people shouldn't be lynched for no reason).

I think we've already cleared up how the second point could come from town.

You've confused me... A lot... with this... Did you have a point with the first part and did you mean town Newman or town V2V with the second?

This bit by V2V seems odd, but I think it is an error in definition. If we look back at post 73 by V2V, the way he describes a quicklynch seems to imply he sees it as 1 or 2 scum insta-voting some person X in a blatant manner to get the lynch through.

If we adapt this definition, then V2V's reasoning seems sound.

And wrong. The majority of quicklynches that end like that are due to overactive town who are either dumb, bored, or a combination of the two. Hell, anyone who is as experienced on this site as people think everyone else is should know that. V2V has put his own spin on such a quicklynch with his own ideals and is holding Newman naccountable for not agreeing with them. i.e. I think one way, anyone who doesn't is scum. If V2V would be elated at a quicklynch it doesn't mean EVERYONE WHO IS TOWN should think the same way, and instead of finding real scum reasoning behind Newman's actions, he simply falls in line with this thinking and calls it a case.

The only thing to accuse V2V of is that he misrepresented Newman, as newman never said anything about a quicklynch; however I see the similarities between what Newman said and what V2V interpreted, so I will just take note of this and move on.

I disagree but okay...

He did show why he thought it would come from scum though, in post 73. No where does the "fact newman hasn't actually said the word quicklynch" is a reason to lynch him. Explain how Newman is an easy target who is incapable of defending attacks (rather, how V2V would have known that at post 73).

Giving reasons it 'might' come from scum while ignoring all reasons it could come from town without giving any real evidence to suggest the scum hypothesises hold weight does not constitute town play. I could list out multiple reasons V2V might be scum, but unless I back it up with evidence it means shit, right? Same goes for his case on Newman. No evidence, no case. Continual pushing that no case for eight pages = scum.

1) He wouldn't know it in post 73... My assessment of his case deals with the ENTIRE push on Newman, not simply the first post. Don't try to discredit my case with such a lousy assertion that you should know is a 'loaded question.'
2) Newman seems unable to actually understand the attacks on him or unwilling to actually answer it properly. He feels he has adequately answered the questions posed at him when in reality he missed the actual intent of those questions. In addition, he pulled the standard 'epic mafia' defense which around here seems easy to make a federal case out of. To vote Newman throughout this game required nearly no reasoning or backing and would have been accepted as normal by almost everyone. That is the definition of easy target and almost always has a scum or two circling it like vultures. (other variants of this would be the policy lynches, people who get bandwagoned just for who they are. Newbies in non-newbie games. People who make a fast l-1 vote because they are aggressive or new. etc, etc, etc... Pretty much anything that is socially accepted as 'suspicious play' without any real evidence of scum intent.)

And before you ask, there is a difference between pushing suspicious play in order to try and uncover the scum intent, and pushing it while just assuming it exists. V2V has done the latter, which is the one scum would do.

pedit: 1. Newmans' joindate says he has been here for a year. That is enough time to know site meta, even I know site meta.

So, I joined over three years ago, but have only been playing for half that amount of time. Join date and experience level are not the same. If V2V's problem was that he felt Newman was lying and KNEW things, he should have shown some interest in finding out if he did or didn't really know something. Instead he just told people what Newman did and didn't know and pushed a scum case from there. Town would have some interest in finding the truth, not simply pushing a case as far and fast as possible.

OPINIONS ON PEREGRINEV PLEASE KORLASH LIKE YOU SAID

But I don't wanna... wait, yes I do... It's that or cache diving... *shudder* I'll have that up in a second...

[Korlash]

lol... 8 posts in and Peregrine already seems smarter than me...

I won't go for the obvious, but Newman can only look protown for defusing the BV wagon if BV flips town. Since we don't really know that (except you seem to), how does Newman gain any protown points for "defusing" the wagon?

QTF. Was this answered by rat? lol, no... rat's response is to ignore it and start voting Peregrine... lolololololololol

Peargrin (so much easier to spell this way) goes on to question V2V and the validity of the entire case on Newman... I don't get his problems with Jun, seems to just be pushing his rvs vote. I dislike that he abandons the Rat vote to revote Jun... His 183 outlines it, but I dislike reasons for a vote coming after the fact.

His 183 is good and I agree with it, and while I still don't like howw long it took him to explain it I can understand his vote on Jun.

So, long story short, I like him because he is smart and while he isn't as content filled as I like to see my friends, I'm fine bowing at his feet and worshiping him as a god among men! Exaggerated as that is, I'm throwing him in the town category. His feelings on Newman and scum reads more or less match mine so as far as my perspective goes, he's totally town. The case on him was started by Rat in what I feel is an attempt to quell the stuff he was posting.

More reason to vote Rat! Hmm... Might have to do some time... But so hard to pick between him and V2V... both such obvious scum...

[Korlash]

EBWOP:

His 183 is good and I agree with it

Should read "His 185 is good and I agree with it"... This is why i don't deal in ISOs, too much page switching and number crunching.

[Korlash]

Korlash: You accuse V2V of only considering the scum intent side of things (not considering how Newman could act the way he did as town) but you are doing the same thing. I've found an explanation for why town-V2V would do the things he has done for the most part. Just because he may have been wrong in his assertions at some point on a logical level doesn't mean they weren't genuine assertions.

How so? There is also the subtle difference between me and him in that all my reasoning are based on past posts. I cannot influence that discussion, nor join those events, thus I cannot pose the same questions to V2V that he had the opportunity to pose to Newman.

What was your explanation for him as town again?

Post 73 is important though if you're making the claim that he picked NEWMAN to attack BECAUSE he was an easy target. If being an easy target was the reason he's attacking Newman (or a reason at least) then he must have known he was an easy target when he started attacking. If we only knew Newman was an easy target after the attacks began, then the point is nullified, as 2V2 couldn't attack Newman for having a trait he didn't know he had.

Newman's reaction towards the wagon gave V2V an easy target to vote. His reaction toward the votes he received made him an easy target to push for a lynch. It's two separate issues, and I'm only concerned about the push to lynch. He was completely valid for voting Newman, but as he progressed his 'case' became crap. Due entirely to the fact it never actually grew. His case for these last eight pages has been the exact reason he voted Newman, and that's a sign of a crap case.

I agree that 2V2's attacks on Newman are bad. They have a poor logical base, and don't take several important details into account; but they are arguments which could easily come from town. There are a lot of scumtells in the game of mafia, this isn't one of them.

I wouldn't call it a scum tell, but it is scummy. I need you to explain to me again how and why they could come from town. (my mind hurts from other games and I honestly can't remember XD)

Christ I wrote a lot.... Korlash this conversation is going to long to nowhere. If this doesn't convince you then I will concede that you can FoS 2V2, I just won't follow you on that wagon.

I know. We'll simplify it. Just tell me why V2V's actions seem to come from town. That's all I need from you. (I honestly wasn't trying to be an ass, I just posed the question each time so in an attempt to reduce the amount you have to respond to...)

He says that he had no reason to vote me all this time other than gut until after I asked him. Yes, he had no reason to vote me other than gut until AFTER I asked him for reasoning. He ditched his reasoning on Rat to pursue me based on nothing but some gut. PeregrineV is not from what I remember a gut-centered player. I don't know where you got the "peregrineV is smart" hook, but can you drop the fact that his reads align with yours (which isn't a towntell anyway)? I do agree that pappums rat should answer his question though.

I know, I don't like the way he went about explaining his vote on you either, but the reasons given seem valid enough at the very least. His ditching Rat made me cry, but like I said, his reasons for voting you make enough sense. He is smart for outing Rat (and from that V2V), and his reads do match mine (Rat and V2V) and while I don't see you as scum like he does, I did have suspicions of you throughout my reread, so close enough. it's not a town tell, but it certainly makes it harder for me to objectify my own read of him, wouldn't you say? If I can't disagree with him, it's hard for me to see him as scum.

And yes... Rat... answer your question sir!

[Korlash]

I already answered that here. (It's the first line under his quote, and I am responding to his link.)

Ah, I see. sorry, I didn't take the time to look that far ahead.

There's that word again... 'could'... Still, I get what you mean. Scum have a motive to defend others, while town technically do not.

What part of Newman's actions make you think it was about the defense, and not the defense simply being the byproduct? As in, why can't Newman actually believe what he said and simply have defended BV through those means?

I think Korlash is mainly suspicious of vijay and myself based on ideological grounds. He (as well as PV, RBT, and others) have waved around words like "discrimination" to refer to our opinions of Newman, which is a position that belongs in MD rather than a game. There is a way that mafia is played here, and judging by Newman's join date I thought he would know the meta here. (No I didnt look any farther into it than that.) Korlash has taken offense to this and has formed his opinions entirely around whether or not a player who has been on-site for one year should or should not know site meta and has ignored the other side of the argument. He even let this position interfere with his opinion of my case on PV which he didnt even read before saying that he disagreed with it. He has taken what he views as an indefensible case (the one on Newman) and has turned the same kind of logic I was using against me while stating that that kind of logic is scum-based. This is an emotional argument he has made based on ideological positions.

Hmm, so many misrepresentations here I'm not sure which to start with... Well I guess the one's I'm most sure of then.

1) Never said I disagreed with your Peargrin case before I read it, this is the second time you've falsely accused me of this so either prove it or shut up.

2) When have I actually accused anyone of being discriminatory towards anyone, and when have I ever used that to discredit or demean anyone's case?

3) Why have you boiled by entire opinion of you and V2V down to Newman's join date? It's a factor sure, but hardly something I built my entire case around. And what side of the argument have I ignored?

4) explain how my logic against you is anyway similar to what you've thrown at Newman. Seems a rather hard accusation to make without backing it up, so I'll give you a chance.

And this is a flailing response made by desperate scum. Lots of accusations with no body of proof, evidence backing it up, or reason to go along with it.

Unvote:, Vote: pappums rat

Until you add some better content to back up these false claims of yours I think I'll stick my vote here. Besides, I think you'll ignore me less than V2V will. =P

[Korlash]

I'm tip toeing around the V2V issue with you right now Jun, I'd rather have this argument with him. I will say this though,

First makes sense if we assume the earlier detailed definition of quicklynch; second makes sense if we assume that Newmans' joindate means experience, although honestly I just looked at his topics list, and he has played a pretty good number of games..

You're doing a lot of assuming here mate. If V2V was town we shouldn't have to assume so many things about him. This part of your argument is countered by me simply saying "if we assume the opposite, he is scum"...

The biggest reason I'm after V2V is the fact his entire case was 'assumed' in a way. Don't do the same thing in order to defend him.

[Korlash]

Why'd you forget about this point Korlash? It's the best thing in that spoiler. V2V treated two people completely differently. I am not sure why no one else pushed on this before.

I didn't forget about anything, just waiting for V2V to get here.

Hey Korlash. Sorry if you think I'm ignoring your posts and case against me. It's just that when I join these games, I can normally keep up with the post lengths and count. Then somebody like you or Zorblag replaces in and I'm just tempted to go "tl;dr fuck it". Anyway, could you present your case on me in a concise manner, preferably one or two sentence dot points? that would be amazing. cheers

A likely story sir! but... a somewhat reasonable request, I'll see what I can do about it.

VOTE: Korlash

Somebody smack me if I don't give more content than this within 15 hours.

WHOOOHOOO! This is *sniff* my favorite moment in a game... Somebody who thinks they can actually keep up with me. ;_; happy days are here at last!

Jeez man, you just proved my point! It's all about assumptions, you say yourself that you counter it by assuming something else! It's all about looking at all reliable assumptions and deciding which in context is the most likely. I think that the negations of what I wrote are far less likely than what I think V2V was thinking. Remember that when I say "if we assume.." I really mean "I think that town-V2V easily would have assumed...".

And that's my point, I don't want assumptions from either of us. I want a pure simply theory with some hard evidence to suggest why Town V2V would push a case on Newman for so long without ever A) Expanding it or adding to it and B) Actually showing hard evidence that Newman is scum.

He has pushed the exact same 'assumption' this entire game and treated it like some sort of real scum push.

Be back later with said dot matrix case or whatever...

[Korlash]

you are, for instance, assuming that i am playing this game to some serious degree and will answer you
you are assuming that scum commit scumtells
you are assuming that quad was serious in that post, or unserious even

No I'm not. This is a game, I know you are a player, nothing more nothing less. I barely use the word 'scumtells' so assume nothing about this, I KNOW that players will commit suspicious acts and that regardless of other factors a scum will HAVE to play to their win condition in order for me to lose, so at some point a scum WILL commit a suspcious act. And three, I don't get voted enough. I assume nothing about his vote other than it should make the game more fun for me.

... You're move sir... >.> *puts on sunglasses*

[Korlash]

On a serious note, I'm not against assumptions. It is a part of the game. I am however, against the entirety of a discussion being assumptions. Such as, if you assume fact A which makes player B scum, you must have some evidence to support that assumption. V2V's assumption (or was it Rat's? Fuck, I can't distinguish between them anymore) that Newman was defending BV is a valid start, but he never once showed evidence to support this assumption. Never. Thus, the assumption is unfounded and falty.

I can go on, The assumption that Newman knows site meta and is lying is valid and partially supported by his joindate, BUT did anyone ever try to check said validity? Did anyone ask Newman how many games he had played? Did anyone ask him to show an example where he saw a quicklynch go wrong? Did anyone show him an example where a quicklynch went right and ask if that changed his opinion? No, they assumed something, called him scum for it, and sat on their asses doing nothing about it.

Town assume things, and use that to help find as near to the truth as they can, scum assume things and try to play those assumptions off as fact.

[Korlash]

It is possible that that was the case with Newman, but the way I have read his defense of bv and his subsequent defense of himself, he is more likely scum in my opinion. He was not able to adequately explain why bv needed his defense and gave no meta supporting himself regarding defending people on large early Day 1 wagons.

Wait, you actually saw him defend BV? Where? showmeshowmeshowme! That, my dear sir, would be evidence to back up your theory. That, good friend, would be a breakthrough! BREAKTHROUGH... These barriers of pain....

1. Yes, that is right you never said you disagreed with it, but you were making assumptions about it before you properly looked into it.

So you admit you lied in an attempt to discredit my character... tsk tsk tsk... We were so close to a breakthrough here!

2. Once again, you are right, it was RBT who used the word "discriminating", but your mindset is very similar to this. You are using your opinions of acceptable D1 play to get in the way of looking at my side of this.

Not really. I discriminate against people all the time, so I rarely have a problem with it. in a game of mafia, it's good to gang up on people for irrelevant details sometimes. BUt my opinion og acceptable D1 play doesn't factor into anything, because I don't have one. Where have I ever mentioned I did? When did I say "proper day one play is this... etc..." and got in the way of anything because of it???? where???

3. Because you keep railing about how Newman's join date doesnt necessarily mean he is experienced and have based a large part of your case against me on it. You have ignored the fact that it is reasonable to expect someone who has been here a year to know something about the site. Newman's own responses have shown that he is familiar with MS meta.

It is reasonable, but it is also reasonable for someone who is town and thinks player A is scum because of a join date to ask the question "How many games have you played?" Or "have you ever seen a quicklynch lose town the game?" or "Hey, look at this quicklynch. It caught three scum. why do you think it's bad play?" I mean you didn't even try. You went "Why do you think this is bad?" no answer... OMG he must be scum because of his joindate/stop actually looking for the truth and run with it!!!! Or, as it's called in Memphis, scum play.

4. I am speculating about Newman's way of thinking and you are doing the same about mine. Not that there is anything wrong with this, as it is how mafia is played IIRC. But you are setting a double standard here. And you talk a lot about assumptions, though mafia is a game all about making assumptions about other people.

Yes, but town back up their assumptions. You have not... You take an assumption, then stop doing anything and just push the lynch. I assume things, throw out questions, take responces, and mold those assumptions based on evidence. Absolutely no double standard.

LOL at "flailing response made by desperate scum". I'm not desperate in the least, before your vote no one was voting me. I was just explaining my opinions of your mindset in this game. And BTW... where is your evidence for your case? Looks to me we both did the same: we both laid out our suspicions based upon our opinions of things that are scumtells without any "proof" that it was actually the case. There is no such thing as "proof" in mafia until you get the flip.

Yeah, but I'm rather convincing when I say things and other people tend to listen. :3

My argument is you lack evidence, thus my evidence is your lack of evidence. It is in the thread, or more specifically not in the thread. You having no evidence would be a 'fact' thus evidence backing up my theory. And proof is just a word, like tell or suspicious act, or banana flavored jelly belly... Sure, you can argue that nothing is proven until the flip, sure, but until the flip happens all evidence can be used as proof of a person's scumminess, which is what's important when you lynch people.

I'm not saying I have proof you are scum, just proof you are scummy and should be lynched. See the difference? =D

[Korlash]

You do make some good points in this post, but you are assuming too much. I didnt look farther into Newman's experience because, quite simply, I did make assumptions about him based solely on his join date. Now the question is, "Is scum more likely to make such assumptions than town?" And when you ask that question, it is no different than me asking the question "should someone with a join date like Newman's know site meta?". Have you looked into my playstyle by any chance?

Yes, scum is more likely to make that sort of assumption. Scum just need pressure put on people and the possible mislynch to occur. Town need the be as accurate as possible and as close to the truth as possible. So scum won't see the need to question their assumptions, just push them. Town will feel the need to question their assumptions in order to help prevent a possible mislynch due to misunderstanding.

Obviously, the player in question should be taken into account. Which is why we're having this discussion. So I can tell what type of player you are and whether my assumption that you are scum pushing this is likely to be accurate. =D

[Korlash]

evidence of newman defending bv: he unvoted from bv's wagon and told people not to vote him

Did he say "don't vote BV" or did he say "L-2 this early is bad"? One might constitute a pure defense, the other does not...

Korlash, if you're about to claim that rats' actions came from town, then why haven't you read any of rats' previous games? That's an unfounded assumption! But no seriously just accept what I'm saying earlier in this post because this is MD which I see no holes in.

Pshh, I don't intend to use meta to attack him so I don't see a point in reading his past games. You're not seriously trying to strawman my arguments again are you? *wags finger* You silly bugger...

[Korlash]

You're frustrating, Korlash.

The implicit meaning of "L-2 this early is bad" when L-2 is achieved is "don't vote BV".

You are assuming that rat acts as scum the way that you associate with scuminess.

No, that's the side effect. It's defending by proxy, which is not defending a player. The implicit meaning of "L-2 is bad this early" is literally "guys, why are we at L-2 already?"

And I suppose I am, hence why I am discussing with him and inspecting my assumptions. I am looking for evidence to support those assumptions not just pushing him as scum because I say so.

[Korlash]

Evidence that he defended BV would be something like "I think BV is town" or some post from BV that in turn 'defends' Newman either directly or indirectly since that would show possible partner links. You could show other proxies where he actually argues against attacks made towards BV(where he in some way poses or suggests a defense), instead of just arguing against the wagon.

Anything like this would support the assumption, Newman was Defending BV. But I have not seen anything of the sort.

[Korlash]

Whoa... Did things just get real... Ls got nothing on Near...

can't wait for the Korlash+Ice cream discussion... "Korlash with Ice-Cream would destroy everything and make the children happy, you however..." ha ha ha...

Oh man, that makes me giggle...

I'll make the thread; you will learn.

Deal, but smarter men have tried and failed to learn up some learning...

I don't find Korlash's case on V2V compelling.

I know, you said it twice ;_;

When Junpei questions Rat, he is subtly defending Newman, and he questions Newman, he subtly attacking him. Add to that the fact that meta says scum Junpei does things like this, and it's cause to be concerned.

So he is attacking both players? Kind of like how good scum hunting is done. Were either questions invalid? Was the defense of Newman the obvious 'intent' of his questions toward rat? Am I not allowed to question anyone for fear of defending another? My god man... how will I ever find the scum...

Oh come on. On day one, there is never a person proved to be scum. Asking for that is bullshit. Newman did something where there identifiable scum intent. He said that it's his play-style and that he can find examples of him playing like this. I'm happy to admit that if this is a point of view that he can demonstrate that he holds in general, that it would mean that him doing it is irrelevant to his alignment, but without that, the attacks on him are legitimate.

Really, the day one argument? You're the type of person to hang scumhunting in favor of cop investigations aren't you?

So he admits he can find examples. Did anyone ask for them? You admit they would change the outlook of his play and he says he has them... Why was there no clamor for them to be presented? Are you asking that even though you know there is evidence somewhere that may or may not exaunerate him... you're going to continue thinking he is scum until someone sets it on your lap?

I'll explain anything that you want.

Then... Why... didn't you? I mean, why tell me you'll explain it instead of just explaining it?

Korlash, you are a serious pain in the ass.

Aye sir. *salutes*

This is a blatant misrepresentation of what I was saying here and you know it. I was admitting I was wrong about that and clarifying what you were saying here.

Not really, saying I disagreed with you without actually reading it, TWICE, implies a big discredit to me. The fact you would bring it up more than once sorta suggest you actually read it somewhere. Saying "oops, I was wrong" certainly allows me a slight quip in your direction sir. =3

[Korlash]

Junpei, I'm voting quads because I think that slot has the best chance of being scum.

Why?

[Korlash]

No. He's not attacking both players. The questions are not "invalid" but they aren't exactly compatible. The rest of this is a bizarre exaggeration.

Not really. Simply questioning a person says nothing about your intentions nor your feelings towards them. For instance, I think Jun is town yet I hardly fail to scrutinize anything he writes for fear I am wrong. You cannot allow yourself to direct your questions solely towards one individual otherwise your chances for victory get cut considerably. Unless you find fault with his questioning it's hardly an astute observation calling them ingenuous.

I can't make someone post. Newman said that he'd look up the posts a week ago. Since that day, he's posted twice - once to say he was busy and once to request replacement.

So they were asked for? Brilliant! An actual argument to my assertions! This game is shipping up!

Plus what you had to say.

Right... The Ghostlin stuff... *scratches chin* Can't argue with that.

[Korlash]

(by the way, 3 of the 4 posts he cites for finding me suspicious came AFTER he voted me, and all four of them are based on meta when we've only played in one game together).

Oh snap, how did I miss that... Jun, you sir should talk more words of wisdom to us huddled masses...

But... that being said...:

The Peregrine I remember doesn't rely completely on gut

The Peargrin you remember... from that one game sir? Don't you think it's a bit off for you to attack his points for unreasonable meta when you are attacking him using meta as well? Can you link said game?

[Korlash]

Korlash – Ridiculous amounts of postings. He’s just as useless and unreadable as hiplop, for exactly the opposite reason. It’s a whole bunch of data, and almost zero information. Not to mention, I don’t understand how he can post a million things, and still not know basic information (yes, in fact, Newman was asked to present his meta) that relates directly to his cases / opinions. As I mentioned before, I don’t believe than town-BV would have placed a vote on Newman when he did, due to how weak the reasoning behind that wagon is. Scumread, and anti-town at the very best. Excellent lynch candidate.

Yup, that's me in a nutshell.

So your reasons for voting me are my predecessor was part of a wagon your predecessor was part of, and I miss tiny details that I specifically ask people to tell me. Cool. Have at it sir. I'm looking forward to seeing this warrior you speak of because you'll need it to lynch me. I'm like a cat, can't put me down without a fight. rowl!

Rinse your mouth out now!

lolololol, only speaking the truth here sir.

Post 231 reeks of scum not wanting to really be on the wagon, but having been on it to look like he was pushing it. Either knowing it was a mislynch or that he wanted to look like he put pressure on his partner.

... Why? how? What is this... Do you mean Z is scum voting his partner Quad? I honestly have no idea what you mean with this...

Korlash, I regress, Peregrine and I have shared two games. However both games were

Cool, I'll look into those when I have some time. I do sadly feel people play small games and large games differently so I don't expect to get much out of them.

And right now, I feel pretty strongly that Korlash, hiplop, or Vijay need to be the lynch today.

You have a lot to say about who to lynch, but very little about who is scum. Can you take a shot at responding to the things I posted in regard to Ghost?

[Korlash]

Naw mate, don't worry about me. You should know I'm active enough I'll be here four-hundred times still before deadline. =D

For now though, work time! Then food time, followed by pants time, nap time, and research time!

Then

... vote time...

[Korlash]

Eh... nice try at the misrep but no.

*scratches chin* not sure how it's a misrep. Seems to be word for word what you said, just with my own perception's spin on things...

Corlash, your predecessor is BV310. BV is a good player, who knows better than to jump on a weak wagon like Newman's as a town player. The only motivation bv has for that in this game is to try to build it into a mislynch. My predecessor, on the other hand, was Ghostlin, who was not on the wagon. Good try, though!

Ignoring the Ghostlin part, Isn't the whole building a wagon in RVS to start the game a common theme amoung this game's players? I realize your views on Newman match my own, but you admit his own reasoning was flawed, right? So why is Newman wrong in his thinking that L-2 is bad, but BV is scum for being part of that L-2? That doesn't make sense.

Tl;Dr: Are you saying you also think an L-2 wagon that early is bad? Unless you say yes, there is certainly another reason for BV to be on that wagon which you are ignoring. (either intentionally or not)

Oh, and as to your second point? When you argue against people, making "Why would this person do Action X, when no one asked him for Action X," the crux of your argument, him actually having been asked to do Action X is not a "tiny detail." And with the amount of detail and time you clearly take making each post, I simply don't believe you just missed it. You looked at the age/likely quality of the players in the game and said "I can get away with this."

Half right, I looked at the players in the game and knew I could play the game my way. The 'crux' of my argument is that they attacked Newman without actually looking for the truth, simply pushing the lynch. All they needed to do to 'counter me' is show me where they did in fact either A) Have evidence or B) actually tried to find some. Since the join date was a minor issue that I knew some sort of evidence existed for, I attempted to force someone to point it out.

The discussion then has relatively few paths to travel. Either A) no one points it out, my point is justified entirely, my case is strengthened. Or B) One of the people I attacked points it out, thus giving me the option to ask for evidence on a more serious topic, which they can't produce. My lesser point about the joindate would be forfeight, but my overall poiint would be proven. Or C) Someone other than the people I attacked points it out (I was betting on Jun). This gives me an opening against the people I am attacking and allows me to see better into the person who stepped up to do their work for them.

Obviously I knew there existed a place where someone asked Newman the question. (I didn't actually look for it, but I assumed it had to exist since Newman wouldn't have brought it up otherwise.) I'm a relatively good player, if I may say so myself, and as such I don't feel the need to play honorably as town just because I'm one of the 'good guys'. I play to win, I play to strengthen my cases, and yes... I play dirty. =D

Tl;DR: The joindate thing wasn't a 'crux' of my argument, just a single part of it. And yes, I knew what I asked for existed. So tell me, why did YOU have to tell me? Why didn't Rat say it? Or V2V? You had to step up and fight their battles for them... Why would you have to do that if they are town? (ignore V2V since I didn't actually post his case, so just blame Rat on this one.)

Please, don't pretend that your word vomit is actually legitimate content. Yeah, there might be a few bits in there, but simply spewing out every word you can think of? Not good for town. Period. Not scummy by its nature, but definitely anti-town, and combined with my previous point on leaving out important bits of information, I think that you're using it in a scummy way.

It's a valid point on both accounts. I can't replace into games without posting a crap ton up front. I have to catch up and it take me a while to integrate into games. Sadly, I'm a very active player and will always post a lot, it's just a lot more up front since I have 8 pages of content to post all at once. And yes, I tend to use 'scum tactics' regardless of my role because I tend to win more games when I play to my strengths. sadly you're missing that I didn't 'leave out important bits' but asked someone else to present them, which they failed at, which further suggests they aren't town since town have no reason to ignore giving simple and easy answers when asked for them.

Shoot. Correction to my previous post: Ghostlin was actually on BV's wagon. I ISOed the mod's votecounts, rather than Ghostlin. My apologies there. Nonetheless, my point about BV yet stands; Ghostlin was not nearly as strong or experienced a player as BV, and I don't believe that he would've been able to determine that the wagon was bad, whereas BV should have.

And my point also stands. Unless you can tell me you disagree that an early wagon in RVS can be used to start off a game, you cannot say it was purely a scum intent to be on that wagon, given the exact 'message' it was created over. In addition, Ghost's position and actions ON the wagon are a hell of a lot scummier than anything BV did so it seems kinda weak you pushing this as the main point against me. (Please don't take that personally, if it isn't your 'main' point I apologize, but that isn't the way I see it.)

On a side note, what are you basing this 'bv is a stronger player' attitude? I always considered Ghostlin a very strong player... If not that, at least overly experienced. Do you feel that you will be able to defend this attitude? (if I may take a page out of Rat's book, just for example, their joindates would suggest the opposite of what you say.) I checked their wiki but got nothing out of it, I assume due to the crash.

[Korlash]

Okay as long as you accept my conclusion and live with the consequence of that?; you aren't Tortoise and this isn't a fictional story.

What the hell is this? "You can think what you want as long as you eventually accept my way of thinking, or suffer for it."

I realize you're an aggressive and somewhat arrogant player (which is actually a good thing in this type of game if you can play it right) but this is purely stepping over the lines mate. Unless I've drastically misunderstood you here.

[Korlash]

1) What is the serious topic you would have followed up on?

2) What did you learn about me?

1) lolololol I knew you were going to ask me this... You're getting predictable. An example would be Newman defending Bv as a more serious topic than the joindate/site meta one.

2) Nothing, you didn't say it, quad did. And since he is voting me, i feel his actions are skewed by it. For instance, he chastised me for asking it because I 'should know' it was here, yet failed to point out exactly where it was, who said it, or when it was said. he didn't even bother to quote it. I learned quite a bit about him over it even if i can't rely on a lot of it. Nothing substantial or anything to do with his alignment that is, just more about him as a player.

I was meaning that Quadz can act on his own convictions, as long as he accepts my conclusion that Peregrine is indeed not scumhunting (since he implied that my case [a collection of premises] was valid). If Quadz wants to pursue someone else despite this (and he does) then so be it, but I don't forget things like this.

Oh..kay... I guess. Very poetic sir... I'm more of a concrete and iron guy instead of the stained glass and paper tapestries sort. Forgive me if some of your more elusive imagery flies over my head in the future as well.

You're not implying that just because someone agrees with you they should vote with you as well, are you? I'm kinda getting that feel from it.

[Korlash]

Also I knew you'd reference Newman defending BV I counter that whole ideology of yours with a simple request: Show me evidence that you are scumhunting.

Sure, I'll need you to define your version of scum hunting first please sir.

And the fact that I didn't say it should tell you something no? Think hard, Korlash, it isn't that difficult, draw a timeline and tell me what you find.

That you're too smart to fall for my trap? that you don't feel the need to step up to defend others? That you disagree with me to the point that of ignoring certain things I post? I can do this all day, but none of this is as important as the actual stuff I was looking for with Rat and the person who actually answered me, Quad.

[Korlash]

You're oversimplifying. L-2 is not bad that early. L-2 on a wagon that is built for reasons that are that awful, from a player that is better than being on said awful wagon? Not town.

And... your playstyle is to deceive and not be fully truthful on a regular basis? Haaaa ok you need death. A lot.

What page did said awful wagon begin on? How do you measure what is awful in that sense and what isn't at that time in a game? Secondly, did BV suggest he actually wanted to lynch Newman, or just wagon him? because an L-2 wagon that early just for the sake of having one that early doesn't really care about what reasoning is behind it. (At the time that is. Unless BV actually showed he was trying to Lynch Newman, I can argue he was just bandwagoning as much as you can argue he was scum hopping on an easy wagon. It's a he said she said, and I scream louder.)

And if that's what you believe mate, good on ya. but playing to my strengths doesn't make me scum. And while I may not admit to being 'fully truthful' very few people can say that with a straight face. Is a VT truthful? No, he hides himself and uses guile to try and protect the power roles. Is a power role truthful? No, for obvious reasons he has to blend into the shadows. saying you dislike my style so I should die might work on other policy lynch candidates, but I'm not one of them and it won't work on me. But if you want to allow me to walk you into that, thus making you resound your own case to simple white noise, please... Don't let me stand in your way sir. =3

They should have answered you, absolutely. I don't know why they didn't, so I did because I knew the answer and no one had yet answered you. More importantly, though, you shouldn't have asked if you knew already. And yes, they should have answered, but nonetheless, it's not "their" battle. It's our battle. Well, not yours, but you know what I mean.

There is no 'should' and 'shouldn't' in a game of mafia. Why shouldn't I have asked something I knew? It obviously bore fruit, no? You just admitted you have no idea why they didn't answer me, thus I have uncovered something suspicious, thus I have created new scum hunting opportunities and helped provide something for people to gauge their reads on. Explain to me why I shouldn't have done this? Explain to me why more information is a bad thing?

BV is a stronger player, from what I've seen. To answer your question, no I don't think I've ever actually played with either of them, but I have seen them both in games. BV is better.

Well I won't argue with your opinion, you are entitled to it no matter how much I may disagree with you. The fact is, you have used BV's meta to call him (me) scum, so I have to ask you to back it up. I'll even make it easy on you. Since the site shut-down may have messed up games, just explain to me two or three times you have seen him play in situations that you feel showed his experience, then explain to me how those situations are relatable to this one. Lastly, how many games have you seen BV play? How many of those were him as town? And how many of those had 'weak wagons' which you know he stayed off of?

[Korlash]

Lets see, Pear grin pear grin... hmmm...

Well for starters, Rat's case is crap. Honestly, him actually posting it hurts the chances of a peargrin wagon... The 'defense of Newman thing' is clearly a stretch with no basis. Contentless garbage is fine, but 'not scumhunting' is also a bit of a stretch. Both of those might be fine points but Rat manages to skip over every single one of Pear's posts that actually had 'content' in them, regardless of your own opinion on the matter. You add in the fact Pear had JUST asked a viable question which Rat 'conveniently ignored' to post this case only makes the posts he left out more suspect. *shakes head*

Luckily, I don't intend to base my read of Pear on this alone!

Jun's case doesn't look much better. "Opportunistic vote" on page one? *shakes head* Coming up with the reasons late is good, showing that those reasons came after the vote is also good. After an ISO of Pear I would agree there is a lack of scum-hunting and given the small amount of content I suppose the statement he 'isn't reading the thread closely' is more or less accurate. I would rather say something like "He isn't adding to the progression of the game in any meaningful way" to make it more encompassing and less based on a single point that can't really be argued by either side to much effect.

So while Rat's case is pure crap, Jun's isn't. Pear's ISO leaves me no reason to suspect he is necessarily town, but a few tid bits that could suggest scum. I would say his lynch would accomplish two things, 1) has a small chance of actually hitting scum. (Small being a percentage less than 40, although possible not much less.) and 2) getting rid of a player that isn't contributing to the growth of the game, or a.k.a. a 'policy day one lynch'. Unlike a normal 'policy lurker lynch' we would be lynching a relatively proven 'active lurker' far and above one of the best of the 'policy lynches'.

Really, as far as deadline lynches go, I see no reason not to be on Pear if one of the more likely scum players are not a competing wagon. Deadline is still over a day so I won't give up on actual scum yet.

So, let's forget this foolishness and lynch SCUM! A vote for Rat is a vote well used!

The fact the Pear case was started by his crap case is evidence enough that the case is likely 'scum motivated'. Obvious false accusations, obvious skipping of posts, hell and for no reason. Pear's ISO isn't all that great, so why skip the posts and claim they don't exists instead of arguing why they are crap? Because he's scum pushing a made up case and would rather say less.

[Korlash]

All right, now that that's covered. Time to catch up.

@Jun: Asking me to "Prove that I am actively searching in thread for clues as to who scum" isn't likely to produce anything of value. From my point of view, all of my posts are me actively searching the thread for scum. Unlike my question toward Rat, yours is too vague and without focus. I want a specific type of evidence, while you ask for anything in general. For the record my 187-189, my part in 192 where I delve into Rat's wording and what it implies, my 201 where I look into Pear's question and how Rat reacted to it, etc. All of these are good examples of me 'actively searching for clues as to who is scum' but like I said, you made it too vague to be of any help.

If you were trying to teach me a lesson, you went about it poorly mate. Just saying.

[Korlash]

This was the opportunistic vote. Also read closer, Korlash, particularly in my ISO where I talk about how I know peregrine isn't reading the thread. Someone else also noticed this, I forget who exactly though, perhaps pappums.

No. You are pushing a deadline wagon, I am pushing a scum one. Don't give me a riddle or an errand to complete, give me something tangible. Don't ask me to 'read closer' SHOW ME. This is the part of the game that falls on you to push your side of things. I am pushing a wagon on who I think is scum, yours is my competing wagon. I have just done what I feel is sufficient research on the topic. Unless you are willing to show me something, I will not waste time looking it up and risk my own wagon failing because of it.

As far as opportunistic goes, there are posts in between his vote on Rat and his second vote on you that suggest his vote, while not justified, does not appear opportunistic. There is at least two instances of him 'reaffirming' his suspicions of you after unvoting. While this may not make his vote acceptable by any means, it certainly kills the idea he was being opportunistic. being opportunistic suggests impulse, and you can't vote on impulse if you showed interest in it earlier.

I'll make this clear so we don't waste our little time. I am not defending his vote, I am merely showing you it was not 'opportunistic'. If you would like to explain to me what part of your ISO is important and why exactly it is, I'll listen. However, if you are not willing to quote the info and repeat yourself at this stage, I cannot believe your interest in your wagon succeeding is real. (Thus must assume the wagon is not something I want to be a part of)

[Korlash]

Still catching up.

@ V2V:

*Your double standard with Ghost and Newman suggests your push on Newman was fake. Why did you ignore Ghost's obvious shout out over the wagon, yet focused ENTIRELY on Newmans?

*You assume a quicklynch will automatically catch us scum, which is false, and you base a scum read on Newman on this false fact. Why did you never consider that a quicklynch has just as much chance of causing the death of multiple townies, thus putting us in a fairly bad place?

*Why did Newman's time on site make any difference? (We'll need to talk about this for a while which is why I'm just starting the question off simply.)

I guess it's not really a case, and more of a laundry list of bullet points for you to respond to. Enjoy mate!

[Korlash]

Ha ha ha. You may think you're smarter than I am, but I'm certainly more experienced with this game then you are. You have a lot to learn sir. For starters, if you are pushing a competing wagon at deadline, don't make your entire 500 word essay about how you are smarter then everyone and we should listen to you. See, you failed to give any reason why we should be voting Peargrin in your last post nor did you make a single comment on Rat (the competing wagon).

Let me make this simple then,

1) If you truly cared about the deadline, you wouldn't have simply posted those quotes, you would have told us what was important about them in order to win people onto your 'side' and guarantee the lynch you want.

2) If you truly cared about getting a lynch today, you wouldn't be 'demanding' anything from me regarding Quad, since he is not one of the competing wagons.

3) Proclaiming how intellectual you are and telling me to just accept what you say is a sign you are egotistical. Egotistical in this game often means wrong, blinded, emotional, incapable of seeing others reasoning and logic, and above all stupid. This is a team game and you are obviously not a team player. I will not suffer you dragging me into a loss because you can't get over how big your proverbial dick is.

4) I have presented a case on someone who is likely scum while I have more than presented a counter on the case you presented. You show absolutely no interest in defending your case and choose instead to attack me personally. You have not only sullied yourself for the remainder of the game, good luck with that by the way, but have just assured my case to be the better. Learn to play the game before you act like an ass, I may not be as eloquent as you are but I'll end up beating you every time mate.

5) the next post of yours better be about why we should lynch Pear and, should you choose, why we 'shouldn't' lynch rat. Anything else is a waste of time. Anything else if further proof you care more about singing your own glories instead of ending this day in a proper lynch.

@ Everyone not on the Ray/Pear grin wagon.

I wont lie, lynching Pear is a more or less acceptable lynch right now but I feel Rat is more likely to be scum. Both of the people pushing Pear have shown their 'cases' to be faulty and not in the town's best interest. Rat's is obviously fake and thanks to post 288 we now know that Jun is more interested in proving he is better than the rest of us than he is in actually working towards a town goal. I will be back... multiple times throughout tomorrow. Should Pear's lynch be inevitable, so be it, but I hope recent events have shown how insanely stupid that would be.

Now I realize

my

post may have come off as rude and condescending, and while that is unfortunate and not the type of game I strive for I don't pull punches with people who think they can handle them. So when this is over, I'll extend to you a hearty hand shake and hope we can both walk away with smiles.

[Korlash]

How embarrassing... that's 'Rat'/Peargrin wagon... *shakes head*

[Korlash]

LOL @ your double standards. This reasoning is no different from the way I looked at my position on Newman.

How so?

[Korlash]

Istark Jun isn't one of the wagons...

Wait... oh god... Yes he is... WAIT! WAIT! NO! No today will suck eggs if we lynch him over Rat! Jun is simply anti-town, Rat is actually scummy!

Guys.... guys... come on...

Come on guys...

Guys!... Come on....

[Korlash]

We have less then a day mate. I reserve the right to feel a bit edgy. >.>

[Korlash]

Wow Korlash, you basically are 100% ignoring my request for evidence of scumhunting, aren't you? You have a massive ego by the way if you ignore every bit of advice I've given. We shouldn't lynch rat because rat has been consistent.

I gave you 'evideince of scum hunting' and you returned by demanding I give you an impossible and exaggerated version of 'scum hunting'. I won't play games with you, if you have a serious request I will do my utmost to fulfill it, but I will not play to an obviously insane person's whimsy.

Rat has been consistently scummy, thus, should be lynched.

1) Give me evidence that you are trying to discern if peregrine is scum or not

My 283 is evidence of this. i clearly and unbiasedly go over both yours and Rat's cases on Pear, and do my own independant ISO. I came to a conclusion and made appropriate actions based on that conclusion.

Here is a great quote. In this one you are both egotistical, condescending, and inconsistent with your claim that everything should be neatly laid out. Where is the reasons? You didn't go evidence by evidence explaining this is true. How dare you waste time with us.

Rat used the argument "if something happened" thus he is making a conclusion and pushing a case based on something that never happened, ergo shit he made up. I clearly went over this in the preceding paragraphs to the quote you snipped out of a post. Don't waste my time quoting half my argument and saying I'm missing evidence.

3) You weren't even considering a peregrine wagon for a large part of the time. You hadn't even read the case until last night! If you were scumhunting then you would have reviewed it in great detail as soon as you replaced in! I want to see you in a game with GreyICE and MoI, you try to play like them but ultimately fail because you don't know what you're doing.

I replaced into a game and was able to give relatively detailed reads on nearly every player in this game. I looked into the Pear grin case as soon as I was able too once it was mentioned as a route I should look into. No replacement is superman, and I am no exception. If you want to insult me for replacing into your game and trying my damndest to get caught up, be my quest sir. There are a great many people on this site who would burn you for attacking a replacement like you did here. Me, I'm just done with you.

4) I have made case on Peregrine and shown it to you several times; I have said that I don't want to vote pappums, I think your case is awful and I explained why. Learn to keep up, you may have played more mafia than me, but I study my play after each game, I improve much faster than you (oh, and I don't make hypocritical statements).

I've seen your case and it is lacking. If you disagree with mine, fine, that is your right.

PeregrineV & pappums rat, both look scummy for on reason or another.

Then vote one of them.

@ Pear: What will it take to get you to vote Rat? As much as it would please me to see Jun removed from this game, I find him being scum to be less likely than Rat.

[Korlash]

A quad lynch at this point would be ridiculous... How long are you going to wait to 'move your vote to prevent a no lynch'?

[Korlash]

*shakes head* I still believe Jun to be town and if me and him together will continue to cause these kinds of problems I can't allow it to continue.

Unvote:, Vote: Korlash

Please either vig, investigate, or lynch Rat. Force V2V to contribute more. And someone keep Jun on his medication, we'll need him eventually.

Peace homies! It might have been short, but I'm still glad I joined this game. LONG LIVE THE MIGHTY BADGER!!! (stupid hares get out of the way)

[Korlash]

Yeah, which is why I can't allow myself to actually hinder the game. This has assured we don't no lynch and that a major problem is solved. It'll also put a light on Rat in some way, which should eventually solve what I believe to be another problem.

Not the way I wanted today to end, but it should clear the vomit and keep Jun from getting as sidetracked as he has, which in turn will reduce the walls of uselessness. Add to that, me being alive would be a distraction tomorrow for a lot of people so I suppose, from your perspectives, my lynch has to be both acceptable and useful. *shrugs* Just, you better win it or I'll feel twice as bad you lot do when it's over.

No need to be a jerk about it.

Dude I just hammered myself, allow me some form of amusement... D=

[Korlash]

Doesn't matter, still the best lynch for good reasons.

go go go, less than a day. *badger time*

[Korlash]

Wait...

I just thought of something...

Unvote:, Vote: pappums rat

Back on scum for now.

[Korlash]

Aye, two of my favorite players they are.

But shhh, I'm waiting for V2V to post again... Quick, hide before he sees you and you ruin my experiment.

[Korlash]

HA! V2V is town.

Too bad Pear didn't get a post in while my vote was still on myself, would make this easier.

[Korlash]

Scum is Z-something and one of about four people. (Bet you can't guess who I'm placing my bet on)

There is no way we got this close to deadline without a clear cut dominant set or singular wagon without the scum having been manipulating the growth of said wagons.

Zdenek (1): riceballtail
HellloooNewman (2): vijay2vasandani, bv310
Junpei (3): Zdenek, PeregrineV, hiplop
PeregrineV (2): pappums rat, Junpei
Not Voting (2): HellloooNewman, quadz08

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch and 5 to no-lynch.

This is T-minus 4 days to deadline. 3 competing wagons, Jun wagon just hit lead. What happens? Z-Something moves his vote to newly begun Peregrine Wagon. Progress stalled.

Zdenek (1): riceballtail
iStark (1): vijay2vasandani
Junpei (2): PeregrineV, hiplop
PeregrineV (3): pappums rat, Junpei, Zdenek
pappums rat (1): Korlash
Korlash (1): quadz08
Not Voting (1): iStark

This is T-3 days to deadline. Peregrine wagon is favorite, what happens? Z-Something immediately moves his vote off of it. Progress lost.

iStark (1): vijay2vasandani
Junpei (2): PeregrineV, hiplop
PeregrineV (2): pappums rat, Junpei
pappums rat (2): Korlash, riceballtail
Korlash (1): quadz08
quadz08 (1): Zdenek
hiplop (1): iStark

This is T-1 day to deadline. What happens next? Pere kills the Jun wagon and bolsters the Rat wagon. Progress. What happens next? Z-Something immediately creates A THIRD WAGON by voting me. progress slowed.

Nearly four straight days of Z shuffling his vote around to ensure maximum wagons and minimum progress. Scum manipulation.

My favorite pick for partner is RBT (sadly). Vote stuck on Z-Something until the tenth votecount where she creates a third wagon on Rat. actually... she had her vote... on... Z... the whole freaking game...

My god... I was wrong... twice...

Alright, I found you the scum Jun. Now show me some of that teamwork I talked about before and get them lynched. I'll go out with my dignity and let ya'll actually lynch me, until then:

Unvote:, Vote: Zdenek

Vote on the actual scum...

[Korlash]

Explanation and reasoning for both 'reaction tests' please.

Self vote for awareness of vote count. V2V for scum intent.

KORLASH IS AT L-1 NO ONE HAMMER YET

You show clear failure in keeping track of the votecount, (I was at L-3 btw, way off mate.)

what was that?

Korlash, you're town right?

As you can see, V2V also not following the vote count.

Faced with the choice to drop an easily faked town-tell, or push a lynch he believes in, Korlash chose to drop the town-tell. There is no way he could have actually thought that he was at L-1.

Proceed with the lynch.

Clearly Z-Soemthing IS following the vote count. Scum has been manipulating the wagons for a while now, they have to be aware of the votecount. Sadly, the mod interfered too early and all I got was V2V and you to post.

Weird. Intent to hammer here.

I was at L-2, this appeared to me to be yet another failure to keep up with Votecount. (I took it as him saying he was tempted to hammer me, impossible at the time)

I created an opening for him to vote me and he didn't take it, thus, not scum. (scum would have NO reason not to vote me at that point.)

Now that my hypothesis had bore results(I needed to get PoE down to a somewhat managable size, which is why I wanted Pere as well), I could start tracking down the people responsible for the stall in wagons. Rat doesn't move his vote enough, Pere moved his early for advancing progress as did quad later on, and Z moved his to stall progress. One scum down. At this point it's kinda hard not to notice RTB since it's only her, Hiplop, and istark left.

The only possible scum left would be Hiplop, but I'll take the plastered Bus vote over the not so active lurker vote any day.

[Korlash]

i don't know how you don't hit those two key things in your post of yours if they actually were reaction tests.

Because they were used to POE down the scum pool, not to actually 'find' the scum. Different result pools, you're the one who said I needed to simplify things mate. >.>

[Korlash]

I had crossed you off as town... Let me run you through the computer and see.

Naw, you tie with rat. Don't move your vote enough, and when you do it's in the interest of progress (my wagon). Town.

So, since I'm out of things to do now, why did you say I was at L-1?

[Korlash]

lololol

Well you know what they say about great minds...

... Yeah, big freaking hats...

[Korlash]

Hey Jun, you noticing what I've noticed yet?

I personally think it's a bit weird that in a theme game, this close to deadline, with a wagon that at least believes it has a legitimate 'scum read' on the person... That no one has bothered to ask me for a claim...

God, wouldn't this suck if I did all this only to catch one scum and call the other town... I wouldn't be able to live it down...

[Korlash]

Naw, I wouldn't have done this if I hadn't resigned myself to death. I just find it weird that no one else has asked, as you say a claim 'could be viewed' as a way to change the reigns of the wagon. In my mind, scum would avoid asking for it in order to prevent that from happening.

I have been in many a theme game where i ended it based off the theme itself, see Clerks or Fire Emblem for instance. And I know enough about the lore that I do regret not getting to see how a massclaim might have worked out. Man that would have been fun times.

I'm Abbess Germaine by the way. Doubt I would have actually done anything with my X-Shots anyway. I suck when given too many choices ;_;

-edit-

What did you learn about V2V from the pappums' vote?

That he was town. scum would have no reason not to vote me given the circumstances. Stalling the wagons pale in comparison to the free mislynch I had presented. V2V didn't, thus isn't scum.

[Korlash]

Like I said, I already resigned myself to it. I won't vote someone I've mathematically suggested to be town just to save myself. My mislynch won't end us the game and Z-something can't survive for very long after I'm in the ground.

[Korlash]

I have a question for you: You are willing to throw away all of your scumhunting for Vote Count Analysis?

I'm really good at vote count analysis. Although this day one shtick isn't nearly as heart warming as my nearly foolproof day three with a dead scum stuff is. I don't normally do it until we have a scum flip and I can actually link voting patterns to real proven scum, but in a pinch I can PoE a scum pool.

Besides, given the situation we find ourselves in, I trust the conclusion my Analysis has given me just as much as I would trust any other form of scum hunting I might do.

[Korlash]

I know I've already said it publicly so it can't be trusted, but I'm going to take Pear's last post as evidence he is also town. Where were you a page and a half ago mate? Would have saved me a bit of heartache...

[Korlash]

All right guys, i need to hit the sack. *puts on gloves, fuck you sack... Prepare to die!* I fully expect the game to be in night by the time I get up, even if it's not I'll be at work for deadline. ;_;

So last words:

@Quad: If you got a badger role I'll hunt you down and murder you... That was suppose to be my slot you lucky lucky bugger. *shakes fist 'but =D'*

@ Whoever is Bella: I'm afraid you're about to lose your spirit, mate. Hope you can use this to your advantage someway. (obvious guess on my end but seems the most logical conclusion)

@ Korlash: You are one hot and handsome fella and I enjoy your company! <3 (Same goes to V2V rowl) [Sorry for those nightmares now]

[Korlash]

Oh my fucking god guys. Glad I checked my phone before i left work.

Jun, I didn't tell what my x-shots were because I feared this might happen and if we were to suffer through a no lynch, I wasn't going to give any info the scum might use to plan out their night actions. Seeing as how my fears have been validated with us hitting deadline and me only at l-1 I hope you can see where I was coming from.

Unvote:, Vote: Korlash/b]

If twilight is still up when I get home ill comment more, if not good luck mates I believe in all of you!

[Korlash]

Damn... I factored in you and Pere but figured Hiplop would miss out. *shakes fist* Oh well, this is just as good really. But I really wanted to use my investigation ;_;

Good luck mates! I noticed Riceball online just now... yet no comment here? And Z-Something? A worthless slander of me instead of commenting on the point I posed. Tsk tsk, guess he needs the night to make up an excuse. Promise me you'll take care of these guys, and in the event one happens to be town, lynch Rat for me.

V2V *bows*, Jun *nods head*... other guy *blank stare* it's been an honor.

[Korlash]

Just imagine if Darth had been here... But, plans cannot account for everything.

Sadly, not scum. And yes, you can take from that what you will. But overall I'm happy with the result.

[Korlash]

Korlash, if you are town I really don't see what you were trying to accomplish with this, especially IIRC you would have settled for a PV lynch. A hiplop lynch would have also been better, since he is entirely null from my POV and if he is town he will lose the game for us in LYLO.

Naw, I've already found the scum so we can leave them alone. Pear is probably the SK role if one exists, so should it come to that, yeah lynch the bastard. But hiplop is our good luck charm so we should leave him alone.

And I rarely attempt to accomplish anything. I just play the game in any way that lets me smile when it's over. Why do things we do have to be about doing stuff... and things... and also tangible outcomes...

[Korlash]

Z-Something is scum, RBT is his obvious partner. Pear is a third party scum if one exists. (or a specific character, I can't tell which)

I would put Rat and... Hiplop I guess, as the wild cards for if I'm wrong about Riceball. iStark takes runner up in the wild card stakes as the most unlikely scum, but the lowest likely town.

Town would include you, Jun, and thirdly Quad. Pear takes fourth place if no third party scum exists.

Anything else you need good sir? =3

[Korlash]

Naw. Just shouldn't run this many games at once. I lose focus and that's not good because my posts get lost in me just babbling on and on and on and on without remembering everything I'm talking about.

Couldn't resist though... Badger badger badger... Mushroom! =D

[Korlash]

Yes, but you won't agree with me.

I don't believe lurking to be a scum tell since I play this game for the purpose of playing this game. I cannot fathom why anyone would play it for the sake of 'not playing it'. I'm blind to even such blatant active lurking sadly... It costs me more games... *Trails off and sighs*

That being said, he didn't have to add his vote when he could have just stayed away and let the no lynch happen, so that is some small measure of positive points provided to his person. But like I said, he is one of the wild cards so feel free to list him among the scum until otherwise informed.

[Korlash]

Well this is going to be fun.

@ Quad: I respect your balls for taking this initiative mate, but you need some practice with fake claims. When you claim something that actually outright suggests you're lying at a time when any sane town would stay silent... yeah... Definitely not the best choice. Just between us, what do you guys have? Some way to hide my flip? Some way to make me flip 'scum'? Honestly, tell me, I'll keep it a secret.

Vote: Quadz

I actually have two abilities 'Spirit Healer' and 'Lessons of Loamhedge'. Spirit Healer acts like a one shot doc, I'm able to use my power to heal someone from all wounds inflicted upon them that night and nurse them back to full health by morning. Lessons of Loamhedge works as a one shot cop. Due to the disaster at my former abbey I have learned to be more vigilant and keep a more watchful eye on the place and the people in it to help prevent any similar disasters. So I'm able to investigate someone and find out if they are or are not an actual inhabitant of Redwall. (obviously, I can only do one per night)

I choose to investigate Z-something last night and got no result back. I take that to mean the scum have a RB which only pisses me off that I didn't keep my mouth shut after I was 'lynched'.

Now, on to Quad's fakeclaim.

I am a modified rolecop; my role gives me the ability to see the abilities any player's role PM states. One of Korlash's abilities allows him to decide during confirmation stage to be either NK-immune or return Redwall-aligned to investigations.

So the scum(me) have an ability(choice) to become investigation immune, but the town cop(you) investigates in such a way as to make that immunity worthless? Bullshit. Given the size of the game, I can understand the mod throwing in red herrings to keep the scum guessing, but to actually fuck them over in that way is beyond awful.

And 'redwall-aligned'? Is that what it actually says because mine talks about inhabitants and non-inhabitants.

I also now think a massclaim may be in the town's best interests.

I think we should mass role claim so I can have a say on it before I'm lynched. I honestly am fairly good at figuring out a games flavor. I expect the scum got safe claims, but I'd still like the chance to have a shot at it if I may.

Yes, those are the implications. In fact, I'd submit that the Vijay kill is likely to be a vigkill, NOT a scumkill. I don't remember there being many people who considered him town, and I think everyone thought he was useless.

Really? Trying to cover up the kill... Sad really... Who besides me actually thought he was scum? Who?

[Korlash]

Quadz shouldn't fullclaim, Korlash can but he's our lynch today 100%.

As obvious a fakeclaim as his is, sadly I have to agree. Especially after yesterday. However, I would caution you to take anything that happens with a grain of salt because I fear the scum have some trick up their sleeve with this.

[Korlash]

QQ more, Korlash.

What are you, twelve? Come on mate, you 'claim' to have tantamount to a guilty on me and I 'know' you're lying. Why do you have to resort to childish games? Can't it just be about the game?

I think we should mass role claim so my partner has a better chance to kill a PR tonight.

Don't forget, I'm not the one that brought it up. You have to at least pretend to actually be looking at everyone who suggests it if you want people to think you're against the idea.

See the use of "Redwall-aligned?" THANKS FOR PLAYING TRY AGAIN NEXT TIME

Well Mine deals with 'inhabitants' but it's nice to know where you got the idea to say what you did.

I was going to decide to lynch Quadz, until Korlash made a post suggesting a mass claim because he's "good with flavor" even though he thinks "some scum got fakeclaims". "some scum", emphasis on some, how many more scum are there than "some", which implies more than one or at least 2?

Jun mate, I never said "some"... *shakes head* Don't beat yourself up too much here, but at least reread what I post before jumping to conclusions next time, all right?

Also, I've won multiple games (Clerks and Fire Emblem for reference) Due entirely to flavor speculation BY ME. Given how much I know this series I know I can give some insight and help weed out those Fakeclaims. sadly, a full mass claim would be ideal but I'm not suggesting we go that far. Since my investigation I fought to use gave us nothing, this is all I can offer anymore.

[Korlash]

EBWOP: Ok, 'entirely' was a bad word to use... In part would be a better phrase, or "At LYLO" maybe. I don't intend to sound like I was a one man army in those games, but my speculation did lead to the last scum in both games being caught that probably would have slipped by otherwise.

[Korlash]

Unvote.

Full claim would probably only be flavor, so it doesn't matter to me. It'll matter more once we have a Korlash flip.

Why did you unvote? You've been acting real strange during my wagons... >.> what is up with that?

[Korlash]

Korlash, I dont think you have claimed your name yet, please do so.

I claimed it yesterday. I'm Abbess Germaine.

Scumpal.

To who? Me? Why would I point it out? His actions yesterday certainly read anti-town, but they didn't match up to scum's either. The only conclusion I could come up with was he was a third party of some type or he was the character I expected was looking for me as a spirit, thus didn't want me to die. Why would scum have avoided such an easy mislynch yesterday?

Mass flavor claim makes just a little sense. I thought someone said there were so many characters in this series that it'd be simple to fake a flavor claim? Besides, it could hint at peoples' roles. We are NOT doing any mode of claiming. The only one claiming is Quadz.

All right, all right. Easy... Jeeze. Just trying to help. By the way, the fact there are so many characters is what makes it so easy for me to distinguish. give a scum too many options, and it's easy to tell them apart from the others. But i get it, we've already lost a power role and caught a scum so no worries. But if I catch the scum before you lot do once they claim, I'm haunting your ass. =P

[Korlash]

And why would scum-quadz attempt soemthing that would surely be counterclaimed?

... Well getting me mislynched while simultaneously outing the real cop sounds like a rather good days worth of work... In my humble opinion that is. Plus, he claimed 'ability cop' which is very unlikely to be countered by anything other than a 'real cop' which can easily be argued why both could exist in the same game.

Why would town-quadz have claimed at all? Seriously, what 'cop' outs himself to lynch a player

that was lynched the previous day

??!?!? It was fairly certain a wagon would form on me immediately and almost assured that I would be lynched... So why would any town reveal themselves unless it became apparent it was needed? none. No town power role would do that.

[Korlash]

He also never mentions the ability to talk to a scum partner. Obviously I can see why this would be left out, too great a risk of accidentally revealing partner, but it still would be an 'ability' of the scum.

I think both this and the killing thing are irrelevant though. Wouldn't you agree "ability" refers to role specific actions, not alignment specific? Thus, a vanilla town wouldn't reveal "ability to vote" which would distinguish it from the mafia Goon, which normally isn't given that as a mentioned 'ability'.

Back to game relevant things, a power role is a power role regardless of what they do. Him outing himself like he did is still illogical and I don't like that you just attempted to give him a possible out to the question.

[Korlash]

I just pointed out a flaw in his claim. How is that an out?

The part where you talked about why an 'ability' cop would want to claim. The idea that he would be useless aside from what he is doing is clearly a possible out for him to use...

Traitor scum wouldn't have QT ability. And it's a given. And it can't be RB. The NK can be.

The RB thing is a good point. But isn't the kill also a given?

[Korlash]

*yawn*

So that proves the scum are given safeclaims. I do like the irony of Martin attacking Germaine though, saved his ass and he stabs me in the back. *shakes head*

Also, since it seems to be necessary: I am Martin the Warrior. My ability is called "discerning the soul;" basically, due to Martin's ability to weigh a creature's innate sense of right and wrong, it allows him to determine what their unique abilities are. I am a Spirit.

The ability to weigh a creatures 'sense of right and wrong' equates to discovering their abilities? what? That clearly suggests you learn their alignment... I don't argue Martin as a cop though, personally I feel Vig would be more obvious but I think cop makes more theme sense. I applaud your choice there.

Your reasons just sound like 'I dislike playing town so why even bother playing correctly' so it simply boils down to my opinion being different than yours. I won't bore the thread with a worthless conversation over them.

I chose Korlash because he was my biggest scumread, for reasons mentioned previously. Certain abilities are more likely to be town- or scum-aligned, so I figured I might try to see if I got something out of it, as well as giving me an idea of whether or not his ability was worth dealing with his obnoxious-as-hell dayplay if he was, in fact, town.

Two questions, does this mean if I had a less worthwhile town ability, you wouldn't have 'dealt' with me? And what do you mean "dayplay"? Isn't it just 'game play'? I'm not trying to imply anything with this, just find it strange wording.

There you have it. Who is lying?

There you go again, acting not town regarding this. Why pose this question to everyone else instead of stating your own opinions on the subject?

[Korlash]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.... *almost passes out*

Z-Something just outed himself as Quadz partner. Oh shit, that's funny.

Alright, my guess is scum were able to communicate during Confirmation. Ghost tells Z-Something his plan to set up a cop claim, and when Quadz replaces in he sees it and continues the trend.

There is a chance that they are both scum, but we can consider that tomorrow.

Awww, cute! =D he even leaves in a bussing opportunity! You two make a fun pairing!

For wasting yesterdays lynch you need to die today.

How did I 'waste' the lynch? I think that's a bit harsh blaming me for the entire thing. ;_;

[Korlash]

You stopped your math early, we would end up in 4:1 actually if I'm mislynched today.That gives us one lynch before LYLO, an advantage sure but I wouldn't say highly 'significant'.

I'm glad you're finally showing your true colors about this Vig bullshit though. How can you do math and not factor potentially two kills a night into it if you really think a vig exists? Unless you're saying you don't think scum have the ability to kill.

[Korlash]

b) I've seen Korlash play as scum before (he was singersigner's IC in one of her SE games).

Is this the only game you've seen me in?

[Korlash]

But essentially, the only real game you've looked into in any great detail is the one where I played with Singer right?

[Korlash]

For us yeah, I suppose it is. I already know you're lying but now know the reasons you stated for 'not trying to build a wagon one me' were based on a non-truth. we could go about this all day with me tearing apart your fakeclaim and you spouting numbers... Like I said, this was going to be 'fun'... *sigh*

The game sorta looses it's appeal when your actions start becoming 'academic'... that's the only real reason I would want to see you hang today, just so tomorrow's activities don't get cemented in stone. Well that and lynching scum is always better than a mislynch, but honestly you're dead either way I just don't like the idea of us playing into your hands.

As ever, any questions or concerns, please let me know.

I'm concerned I may be purchasing the wrong sort of cat litter. I mean, with two of the little buggers I obviously pick up the multi-cat, but I feel like fresh scent might provide the same level of comfort but add in a pleasing aroma as well...

Do me (and all the other people with cat allergies out there) a favor and get a dog instead. ~DY

[Korlash]

Anyone voting for Quadz needs to take a hard stance on Korlash in their next post and needs to say exactly what they think Quadz' scum motivation is for claiming the guilty on Korlash

I outed you and had posted potentially the best attacks/case on Quadz slot, I was at the time a claimed 'X-Shot investigation role', and I'm rather hard to get rid of... Your RBer can hold my power at bay but you can't really kill a claimed investigation role while the possibility of a doctor still existed, and after yesterday my mislynch might not appear super easy to you two. And if left alone to do my thing, you know I'm bringing the heat your way, so all in all, sacing one of you to get rid of me and possible out a cop/vig sounds like a rather good plan given the situation.

I still think you should have told him to wait and make sure I wasn't getting lynched first though. That was a dumb move on his part.

P-EDIT: Thank you, Zdenek, for making sense. Jeebus. If I'm lying then shoot me tonight / lynch me tomorrow. My action is confirmable, AND since Korlash's role implies that there is an alignment investigator, they can target me tonight too if they feel it's necessary. Don't be stupid.

So a miislynch and a wasted investigation... Naw, can we have any other, hopefully I'm not the only one, investigation roles target someone besides the outed scum please? Z-Something perhaps... Pere if you feel the need... Just don't bloody waste it on Quad.

We already fucked things up once by not lynching yesterDay; don't fuck it up again.

You all notice that both Z and Quadz are pulling this stick now? Trying to brow beat the town over our supposed 'failure yesterday' and push the lynch through fear. "Don't fuck it up again guys! remember last time" blah blah blah, that never works mate.

[Korlash]

if thats the case then why do people go to church??? >_>

Wine, crackers, singing, and giving money away. It's got all the makings of a rave party with none of the fun. Who doesn't want that?

[Korlash]

Either way, we would pretty much have to lynch the other person tomorrow because they would be almost-confirmed scum.

Whoa, red flags... Either way? Are you saying you know for a fact we're both town?

[Korlash]

Just promise me you'll go after Z once he's dead, eh Jun?

[Korlash]

Once he (Quadz) is dead.

Why do I need to flip town for you to 'fully look into Z-something's actions'? Come on Jun, I didn't know you looked into people based on situational circumstances... Tsk tsk, disappointing man. =D

[Korlash]

Are you saying you're not town?

*shakes head* Nothing of the sort. merely questioning Jun's phrasing.

[Korlash]

Because Jun's phrasing suggests he isn't currently looking at Z-Something, nor would in the hypothetical situation in which I did flip town. It means he is limiting his 'suspects' which is something I find strange for him to do.

And why would I bother to questions strange phrasing from another player if I were town? *looks at you* Come on mate, that should be an easy one...

[Korlash]

Sorry sorry, didn't bother to preview that one, Should read "in the hypothetical situation in which I flip scum". I was staring at Starky-Boys post while writing and miswrote that.

[Korlash]

... Have you confused Z-Something with Quadz? It seems like you have... Z-Something hasn't claimed anything. Quadz will be immediately lynched, Z gets to skip off into obscurity.

And what about my phraasing looks strange? From Jun's perspective he doesn't know I'm town nor does he know Z-Soemthing's alignment, thus I'm questioning why 'me flipping town' is his condition into looking at Z-Something more fully. I was using Jun's own phrasing to question him in my 493, it was not 'my' phrase, it was his. You need to stop letting your suspicions of me cloud how you read the thread mate. You're making too many mistakes.

Pre-Edit: Don't worry about hypothesis things since his claim is scummy enough that he would be getting lynched today if it wasn't for your stunt yesterday as far as I'm concerned.

Remember, Z is not Quad... Please realize that, and then refactor this entire conversation to make sure you understand everything I've said. Thanks, =D

[Korlash]

... *shakes head* You blame my fluff for you confusing two other people? You should learn to take responsibility for your own short comings mate, it's the only way we're able to learn from our actions.

And no, you can't just replace Z with Quad, because Jun wasn't talking about Quad so your response wouldn't make sense.

I don't get what you mean with your second part...

[Korlash]

Post hammer 'bah' post which is both surprising and unexpected (Yes, it can be both!)

Let us come, and make a toast
while we listen to this post!
To the town I say adieu,
and to my friends, good luck to you!

*bows*

I leave you with one final message, Rats may not be as cool as Badgers... but there isn't really a way to finish this sentence... >.> *puts on shades*

You haven't seen the last of me!!!!! *fades away*

[Korlash]

While I like the ending, I do think the game should have went to night. Riceball 'could' have no killed or attempted to kill Z and failed... But I suppose the chances of it happening were slim. Anyway...

BAM! Never lost faith in ya Riceball... Nope... Not once did I ever maybe possibly waver that perhaps the win was not in the bag... >.> *tears up request to change partners to Z* Yup, knew it all along...

[Korlash]

Looking over the roles I feel the town was a bit underpowered in all honesty. The mafia got a full time, multiple use, unstoppable kill and the town got a few one shot abilities as the 'potential' for more one shot abilities.

In my opinion either the poison barb needs to be dropped to a one shot as well or the seekers need to have some sort of guidance to find their target (or multiple targets). The odds of finding your actual target is literally 'random' since you can't even use flavor to figure it out. So it makes perfect sense no ability was actually activated.

So what i think we've learned is that you have to keep flavor intact for this type of mechanic. Put in a rule to help avoid massclaim if you feel the need, but really for it to work the flavor needs to be there.

[Korlash]

A fair point. I thought a rule to avoid massclaim would have been even more inelegant, but if there is a way around it that would have kept the flavor fully intact, I am all ears.

You could do what I do. I have modded a few heavily flavored games off site, so to prevent a massclaim from breaking the setup I just give the scum a super convincing fake claim. I realize this is what you did, but I would actually have tailored it specifically for the mechanic.

Such as, take two townies and give their 'obviously themed' counterparts to the scum as fakeclaims. Then, if the town mass claims, they net three of their links but prevent the fourth from happening. This also gives the scum a chance to actually screw with the town as well.

You may think this doesn't solve the issue, but it does. it's a self balancing equation. In order to do this, the town have to out themselves, thus they gain the partner links but all their mostly likely power roles are free for the scum to pick off. This fact alone will make mass claiming an idea the town really has to think about before undertaking.

And, if you possibly suggest that a massclaim could have disastrous results at the beginning, but don't actually ban it from happening, most likely the town won't do it until late game anyway.

The point is, the town really needed that flavor for this mechanic to work, so implementing this type of setup would allow them to use it if they wanted, but not overly break the game as the scum gets an upperhand as well.

Just my two cents.

[Korlash]

Forgot this one:

I will also say that in balancing, I considered that 4 of the townies having limited neighborizing abilities to be a PR in and of itself--not necessarily a a strong one, but that was part of their power. Earlier incarnations of the setup were actually too town-sided, so it is entirely possible I overcompensated.

I would say they were actually a detriment to the town in all honesty. Since it wasn't made clear how the powers worked, these neighborizers didn't understand how their powers worked and thus it screwed with them unjustly. For instance, if someone thought they could only connect with their target and no one else, they may mistakenly think a player is town or is in fact their target if they connect. Or, if someone thinks they can only target town, and fails to connect, they may think the person is scum because of it.

These would count as powers but only if it is made crystal clear how the ability works at the start of the game. and even then, paranoia of being able to connect with scum will prevent it from being much use in all honesty.