TM2012: Scummies 2011.5 - Let the credits roll!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hello fellow Scummie holders! I think Gaoth and Captain Ajax are the only players here I’ve had exactly zero exposure to.

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My thoughts on the Scummie procedures … I think Day 2 each group of judges should out who is in their judging group. Scum is not going to be excluded by design from the QTs for obvious balance reasons so it is safe to say they will likely have access to all the information about the awards and powers. Likewise they will know what has NOT been distributed and thus will know what to look for. Lather rinse repeat Day 3 for the Day 2 awards.

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Hito: let's keep the judging groups secret. Not sure if it makes a difference, but the less the scum knows, the better.

Scum aren’t going to be excluded from judging groups (otherwise we have effective POE Day 1 and Day 2 that makes the game pointless) so this looks very much like empty “Look at me I’m Town” faux-posting.

VOTE: Captain Ajax

Also his “Are these players who seem chummy here always this way” in Post 29 looks to me like scum uncomfortable with the possibility of easy Town reads and the resulting Town voting block.

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Hito gets Town points for Post 13.

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@Quilford and Deas

– please indicate where this game was on your personal list of preferences BEFORE the role PMs from Zoraster! Thank you.

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Also it occurs to me that nobody selected for the first round of judging is likely going to get selected for the second round. So single-representatives are fine, but no full-group reveals. Not until Day 3. Just to be safe.

What makes you think this at all?

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@Zar

– Nothing you found actually vote-worthy before your first post?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for the clarification LB!

[MagnaofIllusion]

It is possible that random selection leaves one or more judging groups scum-free, no?

Also, why are you proposing keeping the memberships secret until D2, when your line of argument seems to me to suggest it makes no difference? What have I missed?

Of course it is possible scum aren't in a group via random assortment. No reason to operate under that assumption.

As for keeping membership secret to Day 2 - if you believe the first part then keeping the scum in the dark about the make-up of the Day 1 committee membership until Day 2 is the best way to minimize the possibility of 'Vote Tampering'.

In the end I tend to think conservatively ... don't assume scum are uninformed but operate in a way that would best benefit Town on things we have complete control in case they don't.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Basically, your suspicion of Ajax seems to me have little more than semantics to it: you also want to keep the group memberships hidden, but you're accusing him of faux-town posturing for taking what as far as I can see is essentially the same position: "Not sure if it'll help, but it might, so we'll do it."

For suspicion based on the first page of the game it strikes me at a gut level as suspect. He gave no reasoning just a “We should totally not do this”. If you disagree so be it.

Also, I suggest keeping them hidden for other reasons:

I'm almost sure that one of the scummie options is going to be Paragon, and that it's going to be some kind of investigative ability. The judges for that group will be effectively outing themselves as not-cop if they declare.

So exactly what about saying “Group A contained Player X, Y and Z” without indicating which Scummies were being discussed in any way gives scum information?

I’m not advocating immediately discussing what abilities were discussed or handed out. Just the groups themselves. Long term that information is likely to be powerful PoE wise.

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I think we should out the awards if a majority couldn't be reached in a group though.

I think we should probably ‘Kill with Fire” within the group that can’t come to a consensus in the time frame given all the warnings being given by the Mods.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So BB - nothing to comment on other than posts about you specifically?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod you should probably edit out that reference to an ongoing game by Ajax.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m fielding reads from all my team-mates and will be presenting them in thread tomorrow when I have a bit more time to post. Work was a bitch today.

I will give a slight preview and say both Reck and Quil are pretty much sweep ‘Town’ reads so far and I myself agree.

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My apologies. I guess this means I have no admissible evidence that I sometimes (as town) spend time during day 1 without voting.

So you were able to produce a link showing a grudge RVS vote from over 2 years ago and can’t find games from then showing said evidence?

I noticed one other thing: when you cast your vote for me, hito, we were tied for the most votes with 2 each. Your vote put me in the lead at 3. Looks like you were trying to take heat of yourself by making someone else the official bandwagon. I didn't think you deserved the heat at first, but now I wonder.

So you are basically dismissing all his concerns as some sort of OMGUS variant instead of actually addressing the content of what he posted regarding you?

I’m actually seeing this as a pattern now that you voted Quilford (who is painfully obv-Town which is another strike against you) for essentially the same basis.

Oh, by the way: I read Quilford's answers, and I'm satisfied with them. I'm sure that was understood, but I better make that explicit, or hito will probably jump on that too...

And you ding my scumdar again with the pre-emptive attempt to assert that any suspicion aimed at you is not warranted.

Let me ask you this, Quilford: what WOULD you have considered a protown response to hito? "Let's reveal the judging groups, let the scum know what's going on"? You're basically saying that ANY response to hito about revealing/not revealing judging groups would have been scummy. That's silly.

A ProTown response would have actually provided reasons other than saying “Oh, let’s totally not give scum info and stuff” which is what you did.

No consideration that the random assignment mechanic meant scum could possible know something about it already and consideration of what effect that would have on the process.

Nope just a “Hey look at me I’m Town for wanting to ‘Stick it to The Scum’ response” which I called Faux Town in my initial vote for you.

Which you ignored. Why not call me out on the same thing you are now calling Quilford out on?

Not that Fonz didn’t come riding to your defense.

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Never have playd with Gaoth before so unsure what exactly to make of this entry. Am asking my team-mates for any insight.

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They seem to be buddying each other quite obviously. This, I believe, is because exactly one of the two is scum: the scum wants the defense from the town, and it'll lead to incriminating evidence once the scum flips

I absolutely dislike setting up lynches on the prosect of Town flips.

Tell me TheAm – where did this game rank on your personal request list and do you like Town or Scum better?

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Also, the idea that defending other players is inherently scummy is the most ridiculous thing I've read in relation to mafia in years.

See it’s non-scum hunting fluff like this that has you earning Scum reads in the QT left and right Fonz …

Right, let's go lurker hunting.

Unvote, Vote: theamatuer

And to elaborate: it's not just that he's not posting much, it's also that he pops in and delivers a one-liner relating to the game theory discussion. What does this tell me? A) He's reading the thread, B) His priority isn't scumhunting.

Oh let me see … Fonz is attacking objectively one of the newest and weakest players in the game? Yeah, that doesn’t sit right with me at all given how Town-Fonz (in hydra with Pappums in JasonT’s first Large Theme TV Game) ran right to the defense of new players when I pressured them.

I’d say this strikes me as a pretty transparent attempt to get some viable counterwagon to Ajax going.

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Also, why is Quilford ignoring theamatuer?

Pop Quiz – why is Quilford the only one who should be drawing scrutiny for ‘ignoring’ TheAm?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok everyone - read Quilford’s Post 126. That’s a

BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE

moment right there and I don’t want in missed by anyone.

Furthermore Post 123 and Post 124 address some damn strong points about Ajax.

Oh and for the record I’ll just pipe up and say “Judging Group 1A” has completed their task. No-one from that group needs to say anything else on the issue.

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So my teammates thoughts on the game:

Grey

– early on found Quilford to be obv-Town for his play here. Says ‘scum Quilford’ is pretty easy to spot and I tend to agree with that sentiment.

He is leaning BBMolla as Town based on fairly weak direct experience with him in Divided Germany Mafia and Blood Bowl Mafia. Wants to see more.

Early had Ajax as gut Town but dropped that shortly after the “Vote Hito oops nevermind Vote Quilford” series of posts.

Calls Fonz scummy for his defenses of Captain Ajax (41 specifically was mentioned) and says that his “oh, Ajax was just mis-using terminology” in his attack on hito when hito is obv-Town.

Says KK is scum lurking out the early game. Also says that KK’s posts are terrible.

Finally he agrees with me that 108 is Fonzie trying to divert attention from the growing Ajax wagon.

Also he gives DeasVail +10 ‘Vollkan points’ for his “Quilford I suspect because he was scummier the last time I saw him as Town post”

LLD

– She wanted Quilford dead for the exact same reason Reck voted him … his early 180 on Hito.

Also wants BBMolla dead on principle since he’s “an unreadable slug”.

Says “Reck is 100% golden quality assured Town”.

Llama

- Agrees that KK is scum and Reck is Town.

Doesn’t think Gaoth is scum based on a number of reasons that I’ll just leave there for the moment.

Current sentiment in QT– If I could sacrifice myself right this second to carpet bomb Ajax / Fonz / KK that we would be taking out 2/3 of the scum team.

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Also, someone please explain the reck townread. Last time I thought he could be scum and everyone was going on about how he was town, he was actually scum, so I'm not going to just blindly follow people in regard to him.

Unless you have something tangible you want to point to I think this is not something worth pursing at this stage.

Reck is pretty solid Town for immediately backing off Quilford after voting him. Scum Reck does not let what I would term a fairly possible Town lynch to swing based on the playerbase go just like that.

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I'm trying to read as carefully as possible during times when I am NOT working, or cleaning house, or whatever. Inevitably, I'm going to miss some things.

This response is exactly why I think you are scum. You aren’t scum-hunting.

It’s been brought to your attention that I made the exact same comment as Quilford (who you called scum for it). And your response is this “Oops I didn’t see it”. No follow-up, no questions to me on the subject. Nada.

It’s as if you’ve been warned in your Team QT not to antagonize me because I have a tendency to go end up lynching scum who do that.

MoI, do you think the timing of hito's vote on me is suspect, or not?

Nope, not in the least. The functional difference between having 2 votes and 3 early in the game is pretty much exactly zero. And your “He’s scum for trying to divert attention from me” stance makes no sense in that it immediately attracted attention from you.

Let me ask – do you think Hito is still scum? If so why did you divert to Quilford other than his rather large case on you? Because your behavior looks like ‘shopping for a counterwagon’ to yourself as opposed to getting a read and pushing it honestly.

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@Fonz

– please link me to completed Town games (especially Mini Themes) where you espouce “lurker hunting” Day 1 as a good tactic to utilize.

Player attacks another player on the basis that defending another player is 'something scum like to do.' I point out that the attack is based on bullshit. And that's 'Non-scumhunting fluff?' Pull the other one. Whether players' attacks on each other are justified or not is the very essence of content.

No, adding in that post is fluff. You didn’t directly link it to any particular case being made and just left it out there as “Hmmm, this is a nice Townie looking post”. Which case specifically were you referring to in indicating it was ‘invalid’?

Also – scum can and certainly do defend partners as well as defend Town for ‘Town cred’. To suggest it doesn’t happen is pretty bad from a motivation standpoint. Futhermore in this game-setup the fact that scum have an entrenched interest to not bus (the bigger their win the better for their team’s chances) defending their partners is a pretty solid motivation.

Well, for starters, the wagon on Ajax is bullshit, so I have no problem with being labeled as 'counterwagoning' it.

Well aside from just handwaving it why is it bullshit? Not providing reasons makes your statement at best worthless and possibly scumtastic.

Secondly, your characterization of my play in TV Mafia is off the mark. What I objected to was the fact that you jumped on a newbie straight away, and ramped up the pressure constantly, causing him to flail about and panic like nobody's business, and you never stopped to think 'Well hang on, isn't panicking and flailing under pressure a common newbie thing?' What I wanted to see was if that newbie would scumhunt when the pressure was turned down a little. I don't object to attacking weaker players in general, otherwise you'd never catch bad scum.

See I think you are trying to slip hairs right here. You don’t object to attacking weaker players in general but in that instance my interest in Rodion was ‘too pressure intensive’? Nope you went into great detail about your grand theory of the "Newbie Escalator" and how you believed in it strongly.

In this case (and I'll take your word for it that TheAm is a weak player, I've never played with him before... though your playing the newbie card on behalf of someone who's been on site nine months is noted) it's precisely the opposite of what you were doing there, where a newbie said something weird and you just rolled from there. Here, TheAmatuer was under basically no pressure, and chose not to scumhunt, and seemed, KK aside, to be getting away with it. That's not 'What a newbie does' it's 'What a scum does.' When I scumhunt, MOI, I look primarily for lack of town intent. That describes TheAmatuer best of everyone in the game.

Yes, TheAm isn’t a strong player. You may not have played with him but I’m guessing someone on your team has. Did you ask them about him at all?

I hardly played the ‘Newbie Card’ here. I didn’t say he was a Newb. I said he as a bad player and it’s damn convenient that of all the low content players who really haven’t been scum-hunting (KK, TheAm, T-Bone, Gaoth) you managed to land on the one that is pretty much the weakest of the bunch.

It's noteworthy that your post contains no actual defence of TheAmatuer as playing in anything resembling a pro-town manner. Just the newbie card, and the sound of chainsaws revving so loudly you can hear it a mile away.

Oh I see … I’m chainsawing for TheAm by calling you scumastic for your jump. But you aren’t chainsawing for Ajax by excusing his every move, ignoring the evidence of his scummy play, and trying to find anyone else to lynch in his place.

Your hypocrisy is noted.

Oh yeah, one last thing before I turn in for the night: this troubles me. This isn't the kind of game where we're going to accept noob/VI 'I always do it' excuses. It's not our job to say why not voting is bad (although it is): it's yours to demonstrate that there is a pro-town thought process behind your behavior.

Why do you feel it is better for the town for you to not vote on D1?

And suddenly after having been called out on his ignoring / excusing Ajax you suddenly finds Post 55 suspect. A post he's had plenty of time to inquire about before.

Feeling like all your hardcore defense of your partner is catching up to you Fonz?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fonz

– In case you missed it – you didn’t discuss whether you had lurker hunted in the past as Town. If you can provide me links again that would be fantastic.

I'm happy to pull all the reasons together into a full rebuttal of the case, but it won't be immediately as I'm going out shortly.

Whenever you get back and get the time I’d be pleased as punch to see this. The fact that you were happy to call it bullshit without doing so still concerns me.

Isn't it obvious? Quilford calling Ajax scum because he defended Hito, saying that 'defending is something scum like to do.'

But that’s the point – you made a generic “Accusing people of being scummy for defending people is stupid” MD style statement.

Why, given you agree that scum do defend for various reasons (Town cred, etc) was Quilford’s specific attack on him scummy?

See, I think you're trying to create a nonexistent link between two completely different situations (not that this is unusual for you. What was that game where we were arguing about my application of a particular towntell in endgame?) My meta, in general, is to be extremely unforgiving of antitown play. The way you went after Rodion, you attacked him because he phrased something badly to make it sound like he was advocating getting roleclaims for the sake of getting roleclaims. You then started accusing him of appeal to emotion for describing himself as a mislynch. Basically, he was always the focus of attention and everything that he did to try to relieve the pressure just caused it to build.

Well we will disagree again (not that it is unusual, as you have properly noted).

Not specifically. I asked my partners at the beginning if anyone had any useful meta experience on what to expect from players in the other games that they'd played with before, and they basically didn't say anything.

So you know nothing of TheAm but loudly protest when someone who has both played and Modded Bad town TheAm says he is such. Ok, I understand you aren’t going to take my word but you seem unwilling to put in the legwork to determine for yourself. That I find is suspect.

I landed on the one who most clearly seems to have a non-town mindset going on, and I explained why that was.

Incidentally, KK seems to be scumhunting to me - he seems to be trying to get a wagon on TheAm, no?

T-Bone and Gaoth I've hardly noticed are in the game. That's not a good sign, admittedly

I want to specifically discuss the bolded statement because it bears examination –

Here are the links to KK’s posts at the point you made this – Post 20, Post 21 and [/post=99][/post].

I’d like you to point out where KK is ‘scum-hunting’ in trying to get a TheAm wagon in a manner that isn’t pure RVS.

In 20 he votes TheAm for OMGUS, policy, and buddying. I’d like you to characterize how that’s a valid scum-hunting effort since two of the three of those clearly aren’t scum-tells and buddying is pretty damn subjective (similar to defending which you don’t believe is a cart blanche scum-tell).

In 21 he comments to Hito sayhing that Post 13 is not Pro Town. No pushing of TheAm there.

In 99 he asks Quilford a question about why buddying makes TheAm Town, responds to my question calling himself an idiot, and asks Deas if he prefers scum or Town.

I’d like you to discuss what about these posts you find to be scum-hunting from KK that shows him pushing TheAm trying to get a wagon.

Well, no, because I'm openly defending Captain Ajax, while you're attacking TheAmatuer's attacker.

You attacked Quilford who was attacking Captain Ajax but that set aside – you are looking for an “exact definition” of chainsawing when the fact remains that you are doing your utmost to dismantle a wagon on Ajax and find a different wagon.

Given I find Ajax obv-scum (and so do all my partners) you aren’t getting the benefit of the doubt on that at the moment. As more information comes it I will continue to develop my reads.

*Sigh* That was the post I was coming to the thread to make when I got sidetracked by your latest piece of oral defecation. I forgot about it because I was pissed at you. I'm not going to not post things because you might attack them, because then I'd never post anything.

See this is a prime example of why we find you suspect. You could have posted this without the very insulting phrases like “oral defecation” and still made your exact point. The need for you to be insulting at this stage stems from two possibilities

1. Hoping to get me ‘riled up’ and focused on not making logical sense / getting into a mud-slinging contest.
2. Hoping to subtly undermine my perception with others.

Neither are Pro-Town. And that’s rather suspect given your self-professed “I hate Anti-Town play”.

On another note – why didn’t you enter this game with the “Town don’t lie” pact I have seen you, as Town, open with in the past?

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Hmm.. I get the feeling that Team Mafia is the only game condition in which you'd state that.

That’s not actually true as I’ve seen him indicate this in non-Team Mafia games myself.

Um.. Who cares? I mean, all due respect to the members of your group (seriously, I respect each one), but you are not confirmed town and therefore not a reliable liaison for their information/thoughts.

First, why should your teammates thoughts hold any water in this game at all? If you are scum, they will try to help you win as scum and will tell you anything to help you achieve your win condition. Or not. You could simply be making up their opinions and abusing their reputations in lieu of making your own case.

Second, I'm alive in 2 large (non-Team Mafia) games and I work at two jobs and I have a young family. This game is only 3 fucking days old and I'm accused of being "lurking scum" for posting once every day in a game that I haven't completely wrapped my head around? Are you shitting serious?

So again, all due respect to your group, but they can go fuck themselves because they are not only wrong, they are stupidly wrong. And that's the last word on the subject because I'm not going to waste my time arguing with what is the mafia equivalent of voices you're hearing in your head.

In regards to this –

1st and 2nd paragraph - Who cares about the input of 3 more pairs of eyes simply because I am not “confirmed Town”? This is a terrible, terrible post. If I ever die I wil become confirmed Town and thus the input of all my partners thus is input from 3 more confirmed Town which is very helpful. Pretending it makes no Pro-Town sense to not give this information is bad.

Furthermore you know who has reason to not be presenting their teammates reads in thread – scum. Because they either have to invent said reads since their teammates will not be scum-hunting since they are actually scum or get their teammates to fabricate reads.

3rd Paragraph – I’m also in a ton of games myself. And I have job and family also. The fact you’ve dropped in our opinion no actual scum-hunting is pretty much the reason you have drawn the read you have.

4th Paragraph – Yes, this is just plain terrible and Anti-Town. Your reaction is very vitriolic in comparison to the suspicion. But now I need to see whether your reaction is in line with Town KK or Scum. I don’t have any direct experience I can remember with non-hydra KK so it may take some time.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from 4:30pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties. And specifically this weekend with a charity golf Scramble on Saturday to help with and Mother’s Day on Sunday my posting is likely to be restricted to late nights if at all.

UNVOTE:

@KK and Hito

– have your groups finished judging yet? I don’t see evidence they have and want to be sure I haven't missed it.

@EVERYONE

– Although I think Ajax is scum I’d like confirmation from the Judging groups that everything is complete before we go ahead and lynch him. So please no more votes on him (L-2 is even a bit much thus my unvote) so as to not faciliate an 'oops hammer' screwing up the judging.

Lastly

– anyone who thinks Ajax is Town / doesn’t agree with Quilford’s Post 126 needs to explain who that isn’t clearly indicative of scum Ajax making up responses.

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@Hito

– regarding your post re: Insults. This is a Team game. I have more than my interests on the line. Before we even had roles the four members of our team got together and discussed Rage issues. Grey and I have had success very recently NOT raging at all and getting good results (the Tiger eaten MST3K Mafia for example had us sweep scum with only 1 Town casualty over 3 game days). I’m personally working towards a more calm meta as I recognize that the current site meta has moved my general game in a direction I’m not generally happy with. This is all I will say on the matter.

If Ajax flips scum, we lynch Gaoth tomorrow, no questions no compromise.

While I like where your head is out here I would honestly like to discuss the play strongly defending him as an alternate candidate (Fonz). I know you read him Town currently but his current play is pining my gut as similar to Seinfeld Mafia scum-Fonz. I’ll be re-reading that game to aquaint myself with why this weekend most likely.

That said if I was a Cop I’d be scanning either KK or Fonz tonight if Ajax flips scum.

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Molla's vote hop into Gaoth, OTOH, was a bit quick to and comes right after being questioned about keeping his vote on quilford.

Remind me again … aren’t you voting Gaoth at this point? Because I don’t find it very a Town oriented thought process to be analyzing the votes on a wagon you are still on from the standpoint that the wagon would be unsuccessful before a flip even happens.

Especially when your justification for said vote is effectively “tone”.

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And I've played games where I've seen you go a couple of days either not posting or skim-posting before jumping back in with a massive catch-up post. So I'm not understanding your attack.

Yes but you have done nothing in the way of scum-hunting at the point I made that post, at least to myself, Grey and Llama. I’ve already pointed out why I think that was the case in my last post (directed to Fonz who said you were scum-hunting but you certainly can respond if you wish).

Your reaction was not one that makes sense from a Town perspective IMO.

Actually, you don't have any experience with hydra-KK. I've only been in a hydra once and I don't remember any of your group being in that Mini.

My thoughts were mistaken – I recalled you in Blackest Night Mafia but thought you were part of the Stove hydra … as it turns out you played solo as Town there. My point remains – Town KK there seemed much more balanced and un-ragey.

There, easily faked. Even if I didn't fake it, does it actually hold any merit? If I were to die after posting that, should other people think that you are 4 times more likely to be scum?

Look, I understand where you're coming from. The reads of partners should be considered when you are weighing reads and considering your next post. But I'm saying that they aren't substitute for cases. You posted gut reads from your teammates that say I'm "scum" and "terrible". How the hell did you want me to respond to that?

Where did I ever suggest you were ‘4 times as likely’ to be scum? That reeks of a straw-man right there. I suggested that 3 members of our time directly found your play scummy. Players may take that for what it is worth but if I ever flipped Town they know that it is three players scum-hunting from an honest Town position that got said read of KK as scum. So your “IT SUCKS TO POST THAT RRAARSW” post strikes me as someone who does not want to have to deal with that possibility.

Ah okay. That makes more sense. The thought of a even-numbered group seems a little off. Okay. Let's wait for MagnaofIllusion.

I think it best to only confirm the exact number of players in my judging group tomorrow.

Lastly – you need to explain your ‘Quilford is scum’ read from Post 153 and what scum-slip you are calling out for Reck.

@BBmolla - re-write your post succinctly and with a point. Because it's just abstract goop at the moment.

See this furthers my ‘KK is scum’ feelings. That post, while large and filled with quote stripes, is far from unclear. Suggesting it can’t be parsed is terrible.

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MoI I think your Fonz meta seems to be stretching a bit. Link maybe?

It’s gut at this stage for me mostly combined with his strong defense of Ajax. I’ll be re-reading my Scum-Fonz game I played with him and try to get you some direct links to why I feel that way after the weekend if we haven’t lynched Ajax by then.

MoI are you actually getting anything out of your argument with Fonz other than proving you're right?

It’s helping me sharpen my read on him. I’ll know more when he responds regarding why Ajax is Town and why KK was scum-hunting from my last post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI you can answer a bit of those yourself if you read the last page, I asked KK about both those reads.

BB I had read the last page. I asked KK for a reason.

Why you gotta bust my groove?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ajax’s Post 194 further cements in my mind that he’s scum. It’s another in the long line of posts where he finds whoever might be the most promising target, puts together some vague reasoning as to why they are scum, and votes them. Meanwhile he pretty much has done a crack-up job of ignoring all his earlier suspicions. No follow-up / continuing calls of them as scum at all.

Judging deadline is in about 6 hours from this post. At this point I will be returning my Ajax vote tomorrow morning after the deadline.

Zar is also quickly rising on my list of potential scum.

Also I want to bring everyone’s attention to this last bit form the vote-count

theamatuer (3) - Kublai Khan, The Fonz, Captain Ajax

KK has parked his RVS vote on TheAm and done nothing with it. Still waiting for Fonz’s explanation for why KK was scum-hunting. And Ajax’s vote looks very much like someone manufacturing a reason to vote the most viable counterwagon to himself as opposed to actual scum-hunting.

This wagon, if it contains multiple scum as I suspect, is pretty much confirmed proof that TheAm is Town.

@Fonz

– I’ll happily wait til you have time to respond to my questions and points. That said – please explain why both yourself and Ajax have completely dodged the point made by Quilford in Post 126.

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MoI: What reason was there for you to focus on your team's reads and separate them from your own, apart from showing off how town you are?

Any reason you ask pointless questions Deas? I’m showing my teammates reads for the exact reasons I gave earlier – in the case of my demise all the remaining Town have access to the thoughts of 3 other players who become confirmed Town via my death.

Do you have a problem with that?

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Whoops, Post 133. And, yeah. Calling someone scum gets their attention after traditional "let me ask questions" fails.

Oh, so your stance that BB was scum was completely fabricated to get a reaction then?

What? I uncovered theamatuer-scum & Quilford-scum. My efforts are not appreciated.

Quil is obv-Town and your attempts to point to calling him uncovered scum as the ‘results’ of your scum-hunting pretty much shows why I think you are scum and not-scumhunting.

TheAm is meh as usual as bad players tend to be. That said you calling him scum, as pointed out above, makes him pretty likely Town at this stage in my read-book.

It's WIFOM for me to have to explain this thoroughly to you, but maybe I don't radically change my posting style to match my win condition? I mean, I'd be a pretty horrible mafia player if I was that fucking obvious.

Just saying...

Well you didn’t act like a brain-damaged rabid wolverine to suspicion in Blackest Night so perhaps your playstyle isn’t as uniform as you might think …

Wait, what? I said I have 3, hitogoroshi said 5. Does your group have 5 yes or no? Can we just confirm that scum *must* be in the judging groups instead of you acting like a queef?

What does confirming it gain? This is a rather stupid stance. You, if you were Town, would have been best just assuming scum had access to every group and acting today as such. Your continual focus on trivialities like this as opposed to scum-hunting is noted for the inherent scum point of view.

It seemed off. Upon re-reading, I'm problably wrong.

You’ve never actually explained what was as scum-slip about that post in the first place. Do that soon. Or die, I can be happy with either path.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First off now that deadline for Judging has been reached –

VOTE: Captain Ajax

--

@Kublai Khan: So, nothing? You said I scum slipped, waited for my reply, got it, then just let it go. Man the fuck up or go home.

I still want to see KK’s response also BTW.

--

MoI: Just in case they turn out not to be pointless. Do you have a problem with that? .... That's a reasonable answer, but I do have a problem, because it still looks to me like it's purpose was to make yourself look more town, especially the inclusion of GreyIce giving vollkan (or whatever it was) points to me.

Feel free to think what you want. I don’t think you are likely scum at this point so making this a back and forth about this isn’t something I’m going to bother with.

--

Magua you make me sad with Post 243. I mean you couldn’t do better than buddying and convienently suspecting

1. The player calling you obv-scum with Ajax.
2. The worst player in the game.

Hito is correct and you are scum, huh?

I especially think that anyone who quotes 126 and thinks its an actual scumtell is bad and should feel bad.

Nope.jpg. Here's what went down ...

Scumbag Steve says "I read player I previously suspected and his answers in his posts satisfy me"
Scumbag Steve later says "I really have only skimmed player I previously suspected posts"

How you come to any conclusion other than "scum crafting fake-responses" if you are Town I totally need diagram. And flow-chart. And blood-alcohol tests that show you aren't heavily intoxicated when you wrote that post.

That's why I'm not pushing against the Ajax wagon, but I was pushing on T-Bone's reasons for joining it.

Why aren’t you pushing against the Ajax wagon? You called him Town and thus should be doing what Town-Magua does … ridiculing the wagon as stupid.

But you aren’t. You are doing your best to ignore it while calling him Town. Gut says you be scum bro!

--

I called BBmolla scum? Where?

Implicit in the “Player is dodging my question and thus I took the next step and voted them” is the concept that you have to think they are scummy for dodging said questions. Even if it is very early (as it was) there is no point in voting someone you don’t think is at least a bit scummy for dodging. If they were not scummy for dodging then your question probably isn’t something they should be addressing to being with. Do you disagree?

Ah, so you disagree with me and therefore I'm scum. Ok.

Yes, I disagree with you. I think your play indicates not Town scum-hunting but scum looking for mislynches. Do you often try to straw-man away suspicion like this?

You wound my pride, sir. My game-load was less then. I'm a little more scatter-brained right now. Too many games and too much player-overlap. Once one of the other games goes to night, then I'll give you the focused scum-hunting you're looking for.

If you are Town I apologize for wounding your pride. But I don’t think you are Town.

--

MoI you were one of the more vocal pushers of this lynch, I must have missed the reason somewhere, what made you change your mind on that front?

Well you didn’t miss me changing my mind since Ajax is scum. Are you wondering why I’m not voting him? You might have missed the post where I unvoted because I did not want him in easy “Self-Hammer and fuck over the Judging” range which L-2 was.

--

I made a specific comment on a specific attack that was a major plank of the case on the player who was at the centre of the discussion at the time. Anyone who was paying attention should have seen that.

See and this is why I have such trouble seeing you as Town this game.

1. That was hardly a “major plank” in why Ajax is scummy and stating such is completely disconnected from reality.
2. Why didn’t you make your specific comment in a post highlighting Quilford doing just that? What you did didn’t serve any Town purpose IMO.

It isn't, and I didn't say it is. I said it was a ridiculous position to hold. That doesn't mean that Quilford doesn't honestly hold it.

Basically you aren’t even calling it a scummy position just a ridiculous one. So my initial thought was correct – this is posting designed to look Town as opposed to find scum.

Sure, but you know, it's his first post. Saying ANYTHING relevant at all (and buddying is a reasonable thing to believe to be a scumtell) shows scumhunting motive.

We disagree then … KK’s first post was empty of any significant scum-hunting IMO. He made three points with his vote on TheAm and only one of them MIGHT be considered scum-hunting.

He asks why Quilford is ignoring TheAm and asks DV about his scum/town preferences. Now, I initially read his TheAm comment the same way you did: a slightly odd comment, given that few people were talking about TheAmatuer. But... given KK's elaboration in 133, the meaning of that comment became clear: he's accusing Quilford of treating two players differently for very similar behaviour. He's saying that believing that Captain Ajax was buddying reckoner by pointing out a game which Reck won as town, while not mentioning that TheAm went 'OMG RECK THE LEGEND!' which is a much more blatant piece of buddying (if you even accept that Ajax was buddying in the first place, which I don't) suggests a double standard. This double standard may suggest a scum connection to TheAmatuer. This is scumhunting. Later, he tries to rally people to an Amatuer wagon.

So his scum-hunting on TheAm is not direct but he’s drawing inferences that Quilford is scum for being inconsistent and you are applying applying transitive associations to suggest he’s scum-hunting TheAm via attacking Quilford and seeing connections. Given I have a solid Town read on Quilford and don’t think TheAm is scum at this stage this line of thinking I don’t find compelling myself. I see KK as having dropped a lazy vote on TheAm, asking vague questions, and then blowing up when he’s called scum.

This is untrue, and it's not a minor point. You can disagree with someone without thinking they're scum. I don't get the impression that Quilford is insincere in what he's saying, even though I think he's very, very wrong. He appears to be clearly making an effort to scumhunt. I'm leaning town on him.

So effectively you are looking to undermine Quilford because you think he is wrong even if you think he is Town. If this is correct and you are Town we definitely disagree on what Pro-Town play is.

No dispute here, but that's not the point I was making. You have not made any kind of argument in favour of TheAmatuer actually being town here. Instead, you've impugned my motives for attacking him. It makes me feel like you're trying to intimidate me out of scumhunting. I have come out and said that I think the accusations made against CA are bogus.

I don’t need to make an argument why TheAm is Town to observe that I find attacks made against him to be scummy.

Ajax is scum IMO. I disagree 100% with your stance and efforts to undermine those who think so (even if you don’t think they are scum). That’s why I find you slot suspect.

I find it really hard to see how you can possibly think I am playing completely different to how I did there. THEY ARE BASICALLY THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT. You might not buy that line of argument, in fact I'm sure you don't. But to claim that these two quotes show completely different thought processes? Come off it.

I will say that is probably true after having reviewed TV Mafia. You did push Zinger (who was also Town) strongly while castigating me for attacking Rodion. And we were both wrong. Pretty much my problem is that I think your stances are fairly stupid given your results and the high horse attitude you take pisses me off.

So let me amend my stance – your suspicion of the weakest player (TheAm) in the game is terrible and I find it something just as likely to come from scum wanting to get mislynches as to come from Town.

I find your posting of your team-mate's thoughts to be a strongly 'look town' rather than 'help town' move. If one of your team-mates makes a good point, by all means use it. But the impression I got off that long post was not that your team-mates had noticed things that were useful that you wanted to share, but that you were trying toprove that your team-mates were helping you scumhunt, ergo that you were genuinely scumhunting and therefore town. It felt very fake to me. Mind you, Iam notes that you always come across as fake to him. (He also makes a somewhat nuanced defence of you that I need to take a careful look at to see if I buy).

Well this is a ‘You’ problem then and probably ego-driven IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yup, you are scum. Read that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll probably be making a codified case on Ajax later today.

But in the meantime Magua's little back and forth with hito has reminded me of the followin -

We are mass claiming the Judging Groups tomorrow. We are only claiming the members of said groups but we are mass-claiming the Day 1 groups. PoE is a bitch for scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So why you should hammer Captain Ajax –

1. Faux Town-posting.

I’ve already gone over this several times.

Hito: let's keep the judging groups secret. Not sure if it makes a difference, but the less the scum knows, the better.

As already stated – this is very much Faux posting. He states what is an obvious Town stance “Let’s keep the group secret. I don’t know if it matters but the less scum knows the better”. No-one can disagree that keeping the groups secret TODAY is a good move.

Yet this post doesn’t actually contemplate the possible benefits of claiming all or a portion of the information from the groups later. The groups will be re-shuffled for Day 2 so there is no inherent disadvantage to claiming membership Day 2. So he’s presenting a Town front without showing any evidence of the thought process behind the post.

2. Lack of scum-hunting.

Just reading his ISO should clarify this. The highlights –

Post 29 – Lays out soft-suspicion that Deas and Quil are scummy for being ‘chat-roomy’. No reasoning every appears as to why this is scummy.

Post 38 – states that Quilford is scummier than Deas but doesn’t vote him while unvoting his Reck RVS. At this point Quilford had an RVS vote from BBMolla.

Post 84 – Votes for hito based on the reasoning that hito’s vote for him (making him the top wagon with 3 votes) was scum-motivated as it was meant to ‘distract’ from the 2-person wagon on Hito. As stated before the difference between 2 and 3 votes when the lynch threshold is 7 is mostly insignificant.

Post 86 and Post 103 – At 86 he states that Quilford’s answers to questions ‘satsified’ him. Yet the only posts he references in 103 as reasons for his vote for Quilford there are Post 15 and Post 69. Both of which were made before 86 where he previously stated that he had read Quilford’s posts and that he was again ‘satisfied’. Not very reasonable to assume that Ajax wasn’t saying Quilfords posting was not Town in Ajax’s 86.

Post 115 – I’ve already explained why this post indicates he isn’t scum-hunting but it bears repeating – when I call him out for not calling me scummy for taking the same action he called Quilford scum for (calling out post 6) his response is “Oh, I must have missed it”. No reply about me being scummy for that or reconsideration of his stance. He simply states he missed it and never revisits the issue.

Post 131 – Here he’s back to voting hito for the same reason as before (post 84) with no further reasons than before.

Post 194 – Now he’s voting TheAm who he has prior to this post given zero attention to. And for the reason he isn’t “getting too deep into the game”. He later states that the reason is TheAm’s vote on BBMolla and that TheAm’s response was inadequate. No reasoning why it is scummy. Just a vote.

3. Post 126.

As I posted earlier today this point made by Quilford is gold and I cannot be more clear – no-one has even attempted to offer a reason why this post comes from Town at all. Magua ducked the issue hiding behind “I’m not reading your posts” after saying “Anyone who thinks this is scummy should feel bad”. Again – no reason for Town to be saying “Oh I read his posts and am satisfied” and then later say “I only skimmed his posts”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, your 261 looks like it needs a 3, and no one wants to play Hands Up If You See It with me, so: guess who's never ever had an explicit town-read?

3 is there it just snuck in on the tail end where it was easy to miss

[MagnaofIllusion]

There's fine reasons to be voting Ajax. I think Quilford's town, Quilford's voting Ajax, I think you're town, you're voting Ajax. Etc. But voting Ajax *because of #126* is bad, end of story.

Yes Mr. Straw-man the only reason why people are voting Ajax is 126

Seriously you couldn't be fence-sitting any harder on this issue. There are tons of reason to vote him but you think he is Town. And the only reasons you mention (ignoring my wall of scummy actions by Ajax) is that Town is voting for him.

Vote him Magua! Bus him for Town cred! You can do it!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Given a choice between lynching Ajax and lynching theamatuer, I'd rather lynch theamatuer.
UNVOTE: hitogoroshi
VOTE: theamatuer

Counterwagon Go!!!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

This was less than twelve hours ago. What changed?

His scum-buddy hit L-1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Given a choice between lynching Ajax and lynching theamatuer, I'd rather lynch theamatuer.
UNVOTE: hitogoroshi
VOTE: theamatuer

Do you see this TheAm?

If you are Town then you are the target counter-wagon "save Ajax's ass" choice.

[MagnaofIllusion]

For the record -

if Ajax flips scum as I expect I am mounting Magua's head on a pike tomorrow! You heard it here first.

Grey still wants Fonzie dead. We are currently discussing whether Magua / KK / Fonz makes for better possible partners pending the upcoming flip.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Captain Ajax claim please

What exactly do you expect pre-giving out of Powers other than "I'm Town Yo?"

[MagnaofIllusion]

This one's simple. I don't actually believe that scumslips exist outside of newb-scum. But I've seen, repeatedly, over and over, town lynched for saying things that are patently stupid that everyone takes for a slip and goes aha. "There's no way town wouldn't read their Role PM," "There's no way town would vote a townread over a scumread," "There's no way town wouldn't hammer someone they thought was scum," etc. The argument is bad. I can continue to harp on why this argument is bad, but etc.

Blah blah blah whut? You think scum-slips don't exist? How do you find anyone scum ever Magua?

Don't answer that I know you don't scum-hunt but Town-hunt so your answer will not be useful in any fashion other than to increase our back and forth word count.

But the fact remains -

Captain Ajax said about Quilford's posting "I read his posts and am satisfied with the response"
Later he votes Quilford over posts that were made PRIOR to the above line. Posts he was ostensibly satisfied with.
When questioned about his Quilford vote he says "I really wasn't actually reading him just skimming"

There is no way on God's Green Earth that you can say "Yes, that's not scummy as fuck" unless you think he is a VI of epic proportions. I mean a Foreseen Circumstance / Shotty level VI. Having looked briefly at Geezer Mafia there is no way you can claim that.

So no, I do believe he's slipped in that he's inventing his actions and motivations for his vote. And he needs rope.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It was the only reason that T-Bone gave for doing it, which is why I called T-Bone out on it specifically when I quoted it.

I understand that this context gets lost in your quote stripes, so I'm going to point it back out to you.

It may also be inferred from the fact that I called Quilford town as he was voting Ajax, etc, but I forgive you for missing that because it doesn't lend itself to scoring points nearly as well.

Thank you for throwing some bullshit to respond to. I appreaciate it while we wait for someone to hammer scum-Ajax.

On that end a quick question – do you think scum-TheAm being put up as a viable counterwagon to Town-Ajax dithers and delays this much before hammering him after the Case I put out?

But back to this post by you.

This was a response to my Post 270. Which was a response to your Post 268. Which you quoted but did not link but was from my Post 261

261 was my unified case on Ajax as scum. No mention of T-Bone at all. You took my point 3 from 261 and responded to it saying “this is simple I don’t believe in scum-slips / the Tooth Fairy / Santa Claus”.

Nothing in post 261 has anything to do with T-Bone or Quilford.

So this Faux “You are losing context” statement is bullshit! Thanks for playing!

My scum-buddy Ajax hit L-1, so my objectives changed from "try to see what people think about hito" to "get theamatuer lynched over Ajax." This is because Ajax is my scumbuddy I think theamatuer is more likely to be scum than Ajax, so would prefer him lynched.

Re: TheFonz being scum, you are so incredibly wrong it hurts to comprehend, MoI.

I’d like to see your unified case on TheAm. It would be good reading.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Magua while you are getting all geared up to be insulting and dismissive in your next post -

Why in the hell do you have a Town read on me? I'm completely serious in this.

You claim my number 1 scum-read isn't scum (although you are not disagreeing with me either).
You claim my read on Fonz (in a group with KK and yourself) as possible scum is absurd.
I'm calling your slot scum.

Why in the hell if Town-Magua sees all this from MoI does he think MoI-Town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Let's see. Other stuff: You want to see my case on theamatuer. Here's my response: No.

Lulz. He’s scum but you can’t actually be bothered to show why. Other than talking about Magic and Unicorns I’m sure.

But, no, seriously, I'm not going to explain my townread on you, because it is literally of zero help in any circumstance, whether I'm right or wrong, for you to know how I read you.

Ok, then I’ll just go with the working assumption you are scum who knows I’m Town because I’m not in your QT and roll with that until I have reason to think otherwise.

You are right … this was fun and enlightening.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@TheAm -

I'm wondering what is holding you back from hammering Ajax. You've now dropped two "Pause" items that had obvious answers as an excuse not to hammer him. Are you worried he will flip Town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can't wait for the avalanche of "Magua is trying to act Town by posting reads unbidden" statements

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes on phone give me one hour to get to my computer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fonz shockingly every thing I post is not about you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First thing is first - Ajax is now clearly scum and I’m surprised it took that horrible claim to get some people to agree with it.

Once he flips scum the odds that TheAm is scum WITH him is minimal. By the time the TheAm wagon got built Ajax was obv-scum and just coasting on time due to the judging process. So he wasn’t going to get any Town cred from bussing TheAm. So again – an Ajax Scum flip means TheAm is likely Town and should not be poked til endgame if at all.

Quilford, Hito, and Reck are also obv-Town. Anyone going at them will cause my ghost to rise up from the grave and wreck terrible vengeance upon them. BB also is a pretty strong Town read for me. Deas is sorta there but has not quite yet made the leap. PoE is looking very good for Town with an Ajax flip.

As a reminder the following players were on the counterwagon to Ajax –

KK, TheFonz, Ajax, and Magua

You can absolutely put it in the bank that at least two scum were on that wagon trying to save Ajax. Perhaps three but that I’m not sure if am willing to fully commit to that possibility yet.

Right now my personal reads about scum possibilities from there (aside from claimed scum Ajax) are in decending order

Magua > KK > TheFonz

Magua and KK are rather close and there is some current distance between Fonz and the others.

GreyICE on the other hand wrote a large (and this is coming from me so you know what size I am talking about) post in the QT basically saying that Post 212 was a complete wall of nothing, giving reasons, and ending with “Fonz needs to die”.

I will be gathering LLD and Llama’s thoughts on the Wagon o Doom and if I survive Night will give them in the AM.

This pretty much shows that KK is not 'too busy' for the game but is just avoiding it. Which is what I would expect for scum who has parked his vote on a counter-wagon and doesn't want to make a bad move in justifying his read on his buddy.

--

One of the reasons why I don’t think Fonz is as likely partners with Ajax is the following –

I'm almost sure that one of the scummie options is going to be Paragon, and that it's going to be some kind of investigative ability. The judges for that group will be effectively outing themselves as not-cop if they declare.

I've already got a Scummie. And I don't mean the "Best Town Performance Scummie" (and definitely not the "Best Mafia Performance Scummie"). I have the "Paragon of Mafia Hunters Scummie". I'm a cop. (And a horrible one, apparently.)

I find it very unlikely that Fonz as scum with Ajax would have dropped this suggestion WAY back on page 2 if it was going to be later used as the base for a fake-claim by scum under-fire. Even without Daytalk scum did have pre-game to work out these sorts of things.

--

Magua’s Post 311 and Post 315 are terrible as already noted as Magua reverts immediately to ‘Mod Meta’ as opposed to the clear and obvious contradiction to the claim given in the rules. It speaks to a manufactured reaction rather than an honest one … he had a back pocket “Ahah that’s a horrible claim” reaction ready to spring.

Futhermore his point about Faraday and Mina not using Cops is factually incorrect –

From Faraday and Mina games (or games they were Co-Mods with each other or another person) –

Storm of Swords had a Lannister (Town) aligned Rolename Cop which in a game where the Stark were known to be scum is the equivalent of a normal Cop.

Clash of Kings had an Innocent aligned NameCop, which like SoS is the equivalent of a normal cop in a game with clear scum factions.

Feast of Crows had a role in the randomized set-up that fell to Pine that was RoleCop times 2 and Cop times 1.

Mafiascum Camp has my role as DGB Fanboy which was a 1 shot Modified Cop (I got to choose two players and determine if they were Town or scum aligned and would get results indicating if both were as I tested or not).

So clearly Faraday and Mina have used roles that are effectively Cops (if not straight Cop if simply for the theme involved). Magua’s research clearly was clearly not accurate. Hell he even provided a Mafiascum Camp link in 315.

Magua’s play screams buddy. He replaced in and called Ajax Town while going out of his way to not argue that I (and others) were wrong. Town-Magua strongly believes in his Town reads. I know this from hydrating with him. It’s one of the reasons we chose to do so … he generates strong Town reads and I generate strong scum reads and we mix them together to destroy scum. The fact that he professed as Ajax is Town read and then backtracked to “I’m not saying he’s not scum, I just think TheAm is more scummy” does not fit with the play of Magua Town.

@Magua

– Sorry to say buddy but I’m going to have to grind you up tomorrow given how scummy your play has been. Wish we could have for once drawn the same side in a game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now with that said -

========[]
[]========

[MagnaofIllusion]

P.edit: MoI is here to back me up before I even said it, and also give me top of the page. Legit.

And you get my first official MS Bro-Fist hito ... cherish it!

Bro-Fist!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I note Magua’s response avoids addressing the fact that he’s not playing as he would as Town re: his Ajax Town read.

ASoS didn't have a "Rolename Cop", it had a rolecop. TROLOLOLOL over Zdenek being "Modified Nightkill Immune" ensued.

The Mod’s own list says the following –

24) Kast - Varys - Lannister Aligned Rolename Cop was killed Night 3

So am I lying?

ACoK did have a rolename cop, which is still not a cop in the same way that Gunsmith (which Mina used in NY 145) is not a cop.

Oh look who wants to play the semantics game.

Did said player not return “Percy is Asha Greyjoy” in a game where Greyjoys were scum? Yes or no? Thanks for trying to dodge around the fact that the role was indeed a Cop as IT DETECTED LANNISTERS AND GREYJOYS AND EACH FACTION HAD INVESTIGATION IMMUNE GODFATHERS!

You have to be scum to be posting this. You aren't this terrible.

I specifically looked at Mafiascum Fantasy Camp cause it's LB's only modded game so far, and saw your role, but holy shit, Magna, "Once during the game, you can give two names and two alignments and will be told if you're correct" is also not a cop.

Did you take stupid pills Magua? A role that can confirm either

1. Two players are scum.
2. Two players are Town.
3. Between two players we have 1 scum and 1 Town

Isn’t a Cop? Lulz, the fact that it is 1-shot doesn’t mean it isn’t a Cop. Flail some more.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Paging Lost Butterfly ...

Paging Lost Butterfly ...

You have a scum flip to Modpost

Paging Lost Butterfly ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI, can you explain this and link a pertinent game as quickly as you can?

Magua does not screw around with his Town reads. It's his MO. Specifically he gets Town reads and sticks to them.

The manner in which he called Ajax Town and then fence-sat on him the rest of the day does not fit with this.

The two best examples I know off the top of my head can't be linked. I'll dig to see if I can find others.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, fuck that shit. You want to lynch me for being Ajax's partner, fine, I can live with that. You want to lynch me for being stupid? Naw, shit, homie don't play that, son.

You seem to think I haven't given copious reasons why I think your play looks like scum-partner to Ajax. That could not be further from the truth.

[MagnaofIllusion]

To elaborate on this quickly: I think it's very likely one of Magua and KK is scum. I really don't think both are, and that if the first of that pair we lynch flips scum, we should look off-wagon before looking at the other one.

Well this dichotomy will probably get settled overnight.

My problem with KK as previously stated -

1. Lack of scum-hunting (from my perspective). I think his play has been pretty solidly reactive.
2. His top suspect is a terrible choice.
3. His avoiding the tread (as evidenced by my link above). His excuse of "I'm overwhelmed" doesn't really fit with the fact that he's pretty active all over site.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – as usual I’ll be LA from 5:00pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

--

First things first … we are going to claim our judging groups from Day 1. Not what we judged and handed out. Just who we judged with.

Group 1A was Reck, Quilford, T-Bone, Captain Ajax and myself. Anyone who wants to dispute this pipe up.

Second thing second … given Fonz’s flip I’d like all living members from Day 1A to claim who they voted to give the Best Newbie award to.

I vote for Hito.

--

I’m not voting immediately but will be voting for Magua or KK unless information comes out that makes me dramatically change my opinion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What did Best Newbie do?

Or is there a reason not to reveal that

Well if scum don't have Daytalk then likely the scum might not know what the Award does given that Ajax was lynched.

For that reason we are not discussing it yet.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Group 1A – Reck, Quilford, T-Bone, Captain Ajax, MoI
Group 1B – Hito, Magua, Zar, Theam, Fonz
Group 1C – KK, BBMolla, DeaVail

The last group is via deduction.

Anyone have any corrections to that? Pipe up!

Votes for Best Newbie –

Reck – BBMolla
MoI – hito
Quilford – ???
T-Bone - ???

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah, he complained that his partner Gaoth was not pulling his weight!

[MagnaofIllusion]

In seriousness he had one post where he said he disliked the award we chose.

It's another reason I found him scummy as fuck.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I've got about 10 more minutes before I start travelling. I will have a bunch to say about Fonz's death once we get info from Quil and T-Bone regarding who they voted for in the Awards Process. Thus I will probably need to do so in the evening this weekend or Monday morning.

I'll be focusing on my in-judging group QT until that point.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Last thing before I go …

I have a pretty solid Town read (for a number of reasons and if you are not in my Town list don’t both asking why right now) on the following slots:

Reck
T-Bone
Quilford
Hito
BBMolla

That leaves the following list of players in my “Hmmmm” pile –

KK
Magua
TheAm
DeasVail
Zar

Now TheAm is probably off-board today simply for being the ‘counterwagon’ to Ajax that developed when a perfectly good counterwagon of Gaoth / Magua already was building. I’ll be re-reading the day to look at vote flow but I’m pretty happy with that stance at this point.

So that leaves KK, Magua, Deas and Zar as my ‘PoE life sucks for you group’. Expect to be treated like a 45 year old at the Proctologist’s office today if you are in that group. That is all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't get the night kill. It only really makes sense if I'm scum...

VOTE: Magua

You do get that we are absolutely taking our time today since we are ahead of all the other games, right.

FOS away but just dropping a vote with no reasoning isn't cutting it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m going to split my discussion today into smaller posts because I’m fucking tired and that’s the easiest way to do it right now. More lengthy MoI-style posts to be expected tomorrow.

First topic

– Fonz’s death and the Best Newbie Kerfuffle.

With the votes that have been reported in thread (or lack there-of, I’m looking at you T-Bone) there is no easy way to get a handle on how the scum manipulation might work. If we knew if there was Daytalk it would go a long way to clarifying thoughts I have on the issue.

I will say that if there exists a possibility for scum to direct a Scummy to a Town player and then actively Nightkill them I will be very disappointed with the Mods as that is a TERRIBLE possibility in a game like this.

Suffice it to say each QT should ACTIVELY chose the recipient of each Scummie that everyone should be 100% required to vote on pain of death before the Scummie choice is hammered.

And Fonz was clearly chosen for a reason. I will re-read his ISO and mull that over later.

--

Second topic

– I think it impossible for scum to be ‘randomly’ distributed to a majority in any judging group. That would also be terrible Modding given the set-up and I refuse to believe that our glorious Mods would do that to us.

Thus for the moment I am making the following PoE statements for later in the game –

The following group has only 1 scum maximum – Reck, Quilford, T-Bone, MoI
The following group has only 2 scum maximum (yes, that’s redundant I know) – hito, Magua, Zar, TheAm
The following group has only 1 scum maximum – KK, BB, Deas

[MagnaofIllusion]

Next some questions before I really dig into ISOs –

Magua

–

For someone so terribly wrong yesterday your “Look at me be casually active” sthick makes me want you dead even if you are Town.

Let’s do this again – give my your Top 3 candidates for the last two Mafia today and at least a smidgen of why with each.

--

Zar

Yesterday you really avoided commenting in any way other than very weak “I don’t like his posts" statement. Please explain why you, as hypo-Town, avoided commenting on anything of Ajax’s play until he had already nailed down himself as scum with his terrible fake-claim.

Also please explain why Post 416 isn’t something that warrants to rope today. Because that is exactly the kind of post I expect to see from scum … a PBP ISO review that looks at each post for ways to consider it scummy and comes to a conclusion completely divorced from the actual realities of how the Day played out. Your unvote approximately 11 hours later to me is a big red-flag, especially if scum do have Daytalk.

--

KK

So you spent yesterday flailing around calling me out for suspecting you. You avoided actually doing anything in regards to Ajax other than saying “he wasn’t setting off alarm bells for you”. Your scum reads were TheAm, BBMolla (Town in my eyes even pre-flip), Quilford (obv-Town yesterday), T-Bone (weak play but not very scummy) and Reck (for the mythical scum-slip). Why shouldn’t reads that bad combined with pushing (and I’m using the term loosely given your general lack of content) the counter-wagon to Ajax result in your lynch today?

Second why shouldn’t I see your Town read on my while I was calling you scum that today morphed into a Oh, he’s probably Town but I just want to leave some nuggets I can claim are troubling me here to reverse the read a sign that yesterday’s read was appeasement given that I was one of the two biggest proponents of an Ajax lynch (with Quilford).

Lastly – you actually attacked people yesterday for pushing on Gaoth (you called Zar’s vote opportunistic which isn’t a Town attribute) yet today Magua becomes your top suspect. Should I not think you are Mafia trying to stoke those fires simply off the strength of hito / my end of Day statements about him being a dead man?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Hito

–

Dear Brofist Buddy …

Please re-read KK and Zar for me today. I know we both thirsted for Magua’s blood yesterday but I’ll like some serious due diligence done on those two as I think they very much could be scum also.

Thanks so kindly,

MoI

--

What makes you think I have no reasoning?

Well firstly the complete lack of any given with your vote. You are not a special snowflake and are not going to be ‘catching’ scum if you are Town by derping around and waiting for scum to attack you on bad points. This game is at a level you are apparently unused to. That sort of play isn’t going to work as evidenced by your “Fonz is scum attacking me” statement. Either adapt or just stay out of the way if you are Town. If you are not I'm pretty sure we will work it out sooner or later.

Not to mention that even voting at this stage is monumentally stupid given that we want to have EVERY LITTLE DETAIL of things ironed out in all Scummie QTs today. Which is why you should FOS instead. You should have been able to reason this out on your own.

What do people think of theam pretty much ignoring Ajax and the wagon on him?

I think that your reasoning on why he is scummy is pretty terrible and he should not be lynched before LYLO given how the wagons of the day worked.

Furthermore your complete avoidance of other players like KK and Zar who also pretty much ignored Ajax doesn’t inspire me with confidence.

--

I'm up for lynching Zar or Magua.

Actually at this stage I’m thinking I’d put Magua third on my depth chart behind KK and Zar. Yes heresay I know. But both the others are hitting my gut pretty damn hard. Especially KK given his overall-site activity versus his activity here yesterday.

Please re-read KK for me Quil. I’m not seeing anything remotely Town. And the fact that he has COMPLETELY avoided actually talking about his “slip” that he witnessed from Reck is making my desire to hang him grow and grow.

--

Everyone else falls into some shade of "null" and I'm willing to back off of MoI for awhile because everyone thinks I'm fucking insane and Fate has threatened to drive to my house and torch it if I don't stop letting the hate blinders take over (pretty much direct quote) and he's insane enough to fucking do it

If you still harbor some illusions that I could possibly be scum after yesterday where I ground Ajax into the ground you need to dispense with them immediately. I ignored your little “MoI is scum for thinking I’m Town” posts yesterday because responding would serve no Pro-Town purpose.

If you can’t work past your pre-conceived notions about me please don’t complain to me in any way post-game about that. That is 100% on you. I’ve done nothing this game but make sure that old wounds were not opened for scum to exploit after getting a solid Town read on you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What does "casually active" mean? I could be voting someone now, but there's no point until after the scummies are done.

Also, you shouldn't want me dead if I'm town. Less chance of winning + less points even if we do win. =P

Casually active means you’ve popped up to look like you are engaged (asking Deas questions) but are doing it in a way that isn’t related at all to finding scum IMO. And that you are playing it ‘cool’ given that you should have expected to be hit with a barrage of fire and brimstone today.

Town Magua should really have been more proactive trying to actually find scum IMO. You may disagree but it doesn’t serve Town’s long term interest for you to just not make your thoughts and feelings known even if you are eating rope today.

The last sentence's truth hinges on you being Town and quite frankly I have not a lot of faith in that right now.

We think that there was one busser on Ajax's wagon, which was probably BBmolla, and one scum off of the wagon, which is probably theamatuer or Kublai Khan.

I think if there is a busser on Ajax it’s you (and that’s really not bussing). The fact that you understand the ramificiations of bussing = less points for your Mafia team given the first quote makes this statement not very credible in my eyes. I'd like you to explain how BB's vote looks like bussing at all given the timing of it and the flow of the votes at that stage of the game.

I think you're town. Regfan's not sold but I dun really care. Of the people on the wagon, you're the most likely to bus, as well, but I don't think you would bus D1 because you tend to bus later for more towncred, and I think you're in this to win this and don't want to take the hit tot he D1 tiebreaker score. So.

Given that Regfan has never played with Scum MoI that I can remember this statement makes me want to change my opinion on you being the third most likely scum. I honestly can’t see a Town Regfan (aka Magua Town) as thinking this way at all given how yesterday developed.

So, when I replaced Gaoth, I threw a scumread of BBmolla into our team's QT, and Regfan told me that I was wrong, that that's just how BBmolla is (I've seen BBmolla as scum in Secret Society, and very, very, very, very briefly as town in Paranoia, never played with him). Regfan's come around to my view now.

You’ll need to explain what turned Regfan around on this because frankly I can’t see BBMolla as scum at this juncture.

Zar: I like his D1 play. D2 play so far is more meh, but I'm willing to overlook that until after the scummy judging is over and people start voting me. Reg repeats "look out he loves playing scum," but doesn't currently read him as scum.

What exactly do you like about his Day 1 play? Be specific because I don’t see much at all redeeming in it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

KK, I thought he town slipped early on in his ISO. He made a statement about scum in the judging groups as if he thought there was only one judging group. A sentiment I also had when the game started. Surely scum would know that there was multiple scum groups because they have to be in more than one right? Unless scum don't have daytalk in which case this could mean nothing.

I have my doubts about the viability of this ‘Town Tell’. First I really don’t put much stock in Town tells to begin with (call me the anti-Magua). Second KK is experienced enough and quite skilled enough (see his Best Serial Killer Scummie) that faking such a Town-tell is well within his wheel-house.

--

So you thought I just voted Magua because his name sounded cool? How low is your opinion of me as a player exactly? I don't think it's quite as low as you make it out to be, but I suppose it could be.

I really wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing something, but I don't see what's wrong with voting...

Did you read the post you are responding to? I ask because this portion of your post indicates you didn’t.

You gave no opinions with your vote. I don’t really care what your reasoning is … be it lazyiness, ineptitude or your own personal form of scum-hunting (which is what I credited you with in my first post BTW if you had bothered to read). I want reasoning with all votes and tend to treat players (even very skilled players like Faraday) who don’t give it with varying levels of disgust.

It probably should be clear since no-one else is voting … there is no need to rush down a vote until after all the Scummies sub-groups have done their thing. We are ahead of EVERY other game and given the fact Magua is very likely the lynch today there is rush to vote so early. Today is a great day to take our time and make sure everything gets properly hashed out and all opinions and options discussed. Town is in a great position.

I don't think I've said anywhere that theam is scummy.

Frankly this post where you say “If anything, theam is incriminated by the Ajax flip, because scum often make weak attacks on other scum.” seeks to disagree with this statement. You’ve registered your dislike of TheAm getting PoE Town treatment solely based on the wagon on him. It’s noted.

Personally said “Why is TheAm cleared” thinking reads to me as scummy. Scum absolutely hate PoE working in favor of weak players and giving them protection. At this point you are really outside my pool of lynches but your play isn’t striking me as very Town oriented.

Regarding Reck: I think he could be town if Magua is town because of his vote on Gaoth, which brings it to equal Ajax's sizeable wagon at the time. Wagoning someone who's posted once to compete with a wagon on a known scumbuddy? Is it just me, or does that seem incredibly uncomfortable?

So let me get this straight … you are unwilling to say that TheAm’s wagon (which frankly had only 1 player on it with even the slightest bit of effort in pushing it and that was Fonz) doesn’t make sense in clearing him but this is the reasoning you give for clearing Reck (who should be clear for many other reasons and yesterday you were very vocal about not liking the many Town reads on him)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@KK

– I’m going to ask you directly since you’ve avoided actually stating it despite being asked to numerous times.

What was the scum-slip you claimed you saw from Reck? You need to specifically point out what it was and why you thought it was indicative of a scum-slip. Failure to do so in your next post will be considered a scum-claim.

It's a big ask of me, I know. I played like shit on Day 1. No analysis, just off-the-cuff skim-analysis as I was too busy to really commit to the game properly. I sat down and read the entire game with the flips in mind, making notes as I went before I made my post. I can't erase any previous bad play, so all I can do is mea culpa and play better.

Um, what? Yesterday you were REAJHSHH, KK SMASH when I pointed out you were not scum-hunting. In fact you dropping this –

Ah, so you disagree with me and therefore I'm scum. Ok.

little bit when I called you out on suspecting both Quil and TheAm. So at that stage you were presenting your scum-hunting as a solid effort. You also commented that your efforts at uncovering "Scum-Quilford and Scum-TheAm were unappreciated". Now we get this response? Um, no.

Take it as a compliment. I wanted to despretely put you in the Town column, but you're a good enough player that I'll focus on any doubt I have as being something of significance.

Nope I don’t take it as anything other than suspect play. As I mentioned before in my Deas response scum don’t like PoE at all. So you distancing yourself from your previously stated Town read on me due to a scum flip that I was half the driving force on makes my gut tingle. And not in the same way as when I visit an "All You Can Eat" mexican buffet and go hog wild on spicy food.

1) If I'm scum trying to get Magua mislynched today, that means you're suggesting that I was buddying to Goathof all people on Day 1? Keep in mind that Goath is one of the few people in this game that I've never played with before and therefore would least know how to manipulate. Or you're suggesting that I was "defending" Goath from a mislynch for towncred. Which is hilarious because nobody ever gets towncred for trying to failing to prevent a mislynch.

This is a terrible false dichotomoy you have set up. My thinking you are scum looking to hop on the popular scum-read from Day 1 isn’t at all a case of either “buddying or defending”. It’s pretty ludicrous to suggest those are the only options.

Here is what you said re Gaoth / Magua Day 1 –

Gaoth - One post and there's a wagon? Feels opportunistic as fuck. Null read, for what it's worth.

Yup … that’s it. That is the extent of your posting regarding the slot Day 1 as it pertains to his alignment. You basically fence-sit on him here in saying he’s a Null read. You do, however, find those people on his wagon to be scummy for it as shown in these quotes –

Zar - The Goath-vote and explanation feels opportunistic as hell.

I never said "leave Gaoth be". I just thought it was scummy that despite everything that was going on, you're hyper-tunneling on a guy who has one post and is being prodded. It's an easy way not to stick your neck out.

So yesterday you were more than willing to throw stones at those who wagonned Gaoth / Magua. In fact your Zar suspicion looks very much like distancing … attacking him very weakly making sure that your “suspicions” are on record but doing nothing to actually drive attention his way.

Magua’s flip as Town or Scum really don’t look good for you either way to be honest. I may have some confirmation bias going on here since you are scummy as fuck IMO but him flipping Town really strengthens my “KK was playing to set up attacks based on his inside knowledge that non-performer Gaoth was an ‘easy’ Town target” feelings. Meanwhile a scum flip from Magua means your “epiphany” overnight is just scrambling to distance yourself from your second teammate going down and that your more or less refusal to call either one anything (either Town or Scum) in Post 153 is another nail in the coffin.

You need dead and how well before endgame. That’s how I see it right now.

2) My suspicion of Magua developed organically as I re-read the game with the scumflip in mind. I had him down as scum way before I got to the bromance posts between you and hitogoroshi.

See this … this makes me chuckle. You are basically stating that “Well it developed honestly and naturally as I read overnight. Yeah, there is no evidence that it happened that way you will just have to trust me”. No, I don’t have to trust you at all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, there's no reason for the mods to put hard re-random conditions in place like that. If the scum manage to get, say, 2 scum mates in the 3 person group, there's a group they're completely blind about, and anyway we can still ask them to say where it went and etc. I imagine it's just normally random.

Well we are approaching MD territory here but I disagree. Scum clearly have some ability to monkey with distribution of Scummies (unless you think one of myself / Reck / Quil / T-Bone is scum with Ajax and lied about our vote). Being able to get enough scum into a judging group to outright control it means that they would have multiple way to screw over Town’s distribution of PowerRoles.

We have no idea if Scum have any power-roles outside the Scummies. Even assuming they don’t giving them the ability to control distribution of possibly 2/3s of Scummies per Night (rendering them useless to Town via Nightkill or granting to themselves) renders this a pretty much Mountainous game IMO. And 9-3 Mountainous is in no way balanced.

If I’m wrong post-game I’m wrong and will own that wrongness. But I’m going to work from the assumption that scum cannot have gotten a majority in any Day 1 judging group. If we ever see the appearance of a Vig power that’s even more likely to be true for balance reasons.

But hey, due diligence is due diligence, and if I'm right on Magua (and from the start Ajax being scum was always less sure in my mind than Magua being scum IF Ajax is scum), then it'll be a useful thing to have around D3.

Agreed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

One other note that I think bears mention here -

Lost Butterfly in today's Judging QT has mentioned that a player who is lynched still counts towards Scummie distribution if they cast said vote before they were lynched. So we can safely assume Ajax voted and scum in some way capitalized on it. Furthermore that revelation means that Mafia probably do have Daytalk as unless they have an outright re-direct or another scum was in Group 1A they wouldn't have known which player Ajax had voted for manipulation purposes.

Food for thought.

[MagnaofIllusion]

d) The eligible player with the most votes will win the category and be informed of his new role during twilight. We will use random.org to break a tie.

You may abstain from voting, but if no one votes, then this award is also undecided.

T-Bone you are not reading the right section. Undecided refers to Scummies that were not decided within the Judging QT (LB also made a post clarifying this at Post 39).

Per the rule set the player with the most 'secret' votes will win the category. In this case it's not possible for everyone who voted (Reck / Quil / Myself) to be scum lying about so Scum had to use some sort of manipulation.

The bolded specifically states the category is undecided only if No-one votes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

T-Bone –

Grey wants me to ask you some questions because he thinks you are scummy. In regards to the following –

Guys in 1A, I apologize. When I had that issue last week, I missed the opportunity to vote and did not submit one in time. I did submit a late vote on Zar though. I'll PM the Mod and see if they were lenient enough to count it or not.

In Post 242 you said that your two strongest Town reads were Fonz and BBMolla. This was your last explicit Town read give of the day. Yes, you did earlier call Zar Town ( Post 110) but at the very end of the Day you said both BB and Fonz were your strongest Town reads.

What changed after 242 that made you at the last minute vote Zar as opposed to either Fonz or BB?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’ll go ahead and pony up to be the rep of 2A today.

Today’s reps (as indicated in thread are) –

2A – MoI
2B – TheAm
2C – KK (claimed 3 person group)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Zar: I like his D1 play. D2 play so far is more meh, but I'm willing to overlook that until after the scummy judging is over and people start voting me. Reg repeats "look out he loves playing scum," but doesn't currently read him as scum.

Magua

- Llama has asked me to have you ask Reg if he has links that can help illustrate Zar's preference for scum and if so to post them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Meh. Asking questions *is* how I find the scum. As scum, I lurk and try to avoid notice. You can read my scumgames from the wiki; I think only GreyICE has actually played in a game with me where I was actually scum, but I'll tl,dr; my scumgame for you: I suck, and I lurk a lot.

Cyclical Experiment 2. How quickly you forget ....

Unfortunately all your content was eaten by Tigers but my recollection was not "lazy, lurking Magua".

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, you're making me break my rule about reading your quote stripes. I dun wanna do that.

Well to quote someone recently – “Man, do you want to take a guess as to the number of fucks I have to give about that?”

Other stuff: You think that if there's a busser on Ajax it's me. Well, seeing as how I know that's 100% incorrect, I'm not even going to address it as a hypothetical. Your baiting and rephrasing attempts to provoke a reaction are just grating.

I honestly don't give a fuck if you think my reads or statements look non-credible. I'm not particularly worried about being credible, I'm more worried about actually being correct. Strange, I know.

Well it is all well and good that you feel ‘baited’. The fact remains that I very much doubt bussing is going on here for a number of reasons. So I’m not going to be bothering looking at those who actually helped move the lynch along until another Mafia is dead. Life's tough ...

Ajax and my slot are at L-3 -- BBmolla is voting me.

Ajax calls my wagon "too easy," stays off of it. BBmolla says, "I hate that 'too easy'," in response to Ajax, specifically saying it means nothing, implying (again) suspicion of my slot as he defends his position on its wagon, complains *heavily* about Kublai Khan being scum, and then votes Ajax for, as far as I can tell, Ajax's reactions in the Ajax/Quilford scramble.

Then never really mentions Ajax again.

So you think that it is in scum’s best interest to abandon the direct counter-wagon to his partner, complain about another player being scum (said player having no votes IIRC and plenty of what I consider stupid Town reads from players), and choose to land his vote on his partner making the wagon even more viable and making your ‘mislynch’ even less likely.

Well suffice it to say I disagree and we can leave it at that.

Re: Regfan's BBmolla read. I replace in, I say, "Man, BBmolla feels off," Regfan's all, "That's all alignment-null for BBmolla, he's probably town due to meta." After Ajax flipped, Regfan says there's a severe lack of interaction between Ajax and BBmolla, and starts reconsidering my read, gives me shit for thinking that hitogoroshi was scum, and states that his suspects are Reckoner, theamatuer, Kublai Khan, BBmolla, Zar (in no specific order).

There’s a severe lack of interaction between MANY slots and Ajax. Including yours. So that evidence is rather whelming.

I forgot about that game. Also, we were scumbuddies in Open 302, which I had *completely* forgotten about, but only illustrates my point more.

Um, whut? You had the third most number of posts in that game. Hardly an example of your ‘lurking’. And given your self-meta of “I hate bussing” the fact that you did everything in your power to avoid voting for him until it was pretty much sealed doesn’t help your case for not being Ajax’s partner IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have something I want to check. Can someone give me an investigative role tonight?
I also play better with a PR so yeah

Are you trying to do everything in your power to make the people who don't think you are scum consider your death a bonus even when considering the Team Mafia points system?

Seriously ...

Stop pretending you can't play without a crutch.

Opinions on Zar / KK / Magua given the flips --- go!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey MagnaofIllusion, Just want to congratulate you. I think you're the first to actually state "Hey, look at his scummie, he's really good and we should watch out for him". Which I think is hilarious considering you just finished lugging around a scummie. How'd that argument ever sound to you?

Well considering I think I’m a better than average player I got used to it. And I think my having been on the receiving end of copious amounts of Burden of Proficiency arguments gives me a bit of freedom to use them on players who likewise deserve them. Life’s a bitch when you have the hardware that says “I’m good at this game, especially as Non-Town”, huh?

So there you go. DeasVail and BBmolla will confirm all the QT stuff that shows my train of thought.

Well let’s addrss this. You ignored the calls for explanation when both BB and Deas could confirm said train of thought Day 1 (or, from a KK Town perspective, get caught lying about it as scum barring both of them being scum) and still didn’t address it until I was annoying about it even though your post makes it seem like a pretty easy thing to explain?

What about that is Pro-Town at all? And the answer of “I’m scum hunting BB for his reaction” really isn’t meaningful to me since I think he’s Town and you are scum.

No, I was "REAJHSHH KHAN SMASH" over the fact that you might be hiding behind teammate's one-line reads. I'll defend myself against any case because I know I'm town and therefore any case against me is wrong. But it sounded like you were trying to use heresay as evidence against me and I still say that my rage was justified.

Nice deflection from the point I was making. Yes, I’m directly calling it a deflection. You haven’t addressed the fact that Day 1 you were bemoaning that your valid scum-hunting was being ignored. Yet at the start of today suddenly you claim to be doing a half-assed job Day 1. Those lines of thought do not coincide and the flip smells like scum poised at rep-rebuilding.

Right, that's my point. I don't understand your charge at all. Goath made a single post yesterday and got two votes with little explanation beyond "it feels wrong".

Now I appreciate you going through the trouble of pulling linkless quotes out of context simply because they mention the word "Goath".

My null read comes from the fact that Goath had made one single post. Since that one post didn't contain the words "I am Scum", I was curious as to how some players felt they could get away with calling it scummy enough for a vote and not commenting much on anything else at all (such as BBmolla at the time of my post you quoted, Zar had some other reads but he had just goaded BBmolla into voting Goath).

Things I want to point out about this response –

1. The bolded is a typical scum undermining technique. You don’t want to come out and directly say my method was scummy but you attack me for making ‘linkless’ quotes that are ‘out of context’. Are you suggesting that my pulling quotes which include the post number in the quote box without a direct link (because I form not using multi-quote but copy / paste into Word) is scummy? Are you suggesting those quotes don’t come from the posts I listed? Are you suggesting that when I am discussing your complete lack of read on Gaoth / Magua the entire day that finding your ONLY direct mention of him vis-a-vie alignment isn’t in context of our discussion? Please be specific about what is wrong with my point there. You didn’t include any reads on Magua either after he started posting.
2. You don’t understand how I can find your read on the Gaoth / Magua slot (null at only mention) which mimicked your Ajax read (saying he commited a bad post but otherwise you have no problems with his slot, which reads pretty much as Null to me) might be a sign that you were treating both your potential scum-buddies the same?

You can't have it both ways. You can't tell hitogoroshi that I'm skilled and experienced and then accuse me of being so bush-league that I would scramble to try to bus a scum-partner for town cred. You are admitting that you have some confirmation bias simply because even you realize that pushing a Magua lynch makes zero sense as a scum ploy. No matter what Magus flips, that would only buy me a day, max.

Yup, I have confirmation bias. I fully concede that I was making an argument in that vein their. I think you are scum. Honestly at this stage I’d rather hang you than him for a number of reasons.

Well, what the fuck are you expecting? I would fly you over and let you Vulcan mind-meld me to know I say saying the truth except 1) I'm not going to cover your travel expenses and 2) there's no such thing as a Vulcan mind-meld. There's no evidence of my re-reading the game beyond me saying that I re-read the game. And you're choosing to not believe me. So that's pretty much it.

If you are outright saying that no-one should believe your response (given no-one could be 'inside your head') what was the purpose of giving it other than to include trendy MS buzzwords like “organic” as a means to present a Town position?

Hey theamatuer,

Could you switch games with Bud Bidderskins or mykonian? You can do so since it's currently day 2 and your team hasn't made it's one switch. I'd like to play a game with someone who actually reads the game and can intelligently convey his thoughts.

Thanks,

- Kublai Khan

Translation – can you switch with a teammate who might not see me as scum? Very few aside from MoI suspect me and when he’s Nightkilled I’ll have an easier time coasting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

For those playing at home the other part of Post 471 that doesn't make sense from a Town perspective?

Why is KK asking TheAm to flip out with a 'more competent' member of his team if he still thinks he is scum? And he still is keeping that option open with today's "Is he dumb or scum" stance.

If KK is Town who still harbors some illusion that TheAm is actually scum why bring in a better player who likely will get a 'replacement halo' if they play in a manner that even resembles Town in the slightest given the general consensus that TheAm was a last ditch counter-wagon to Ajax-scum? Makes little sense other than frustration that TheAm is not playing the game 'the right way'. And at this stage hanging scum should be a bigger concern.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm sorry that you don't want to hear that your BBmolla read is wrong, but in all likelihood it is. Both DeasVail and BBmolla knew that my train of thinking was town as fuck. DeasVail spoke up for me and BBmolla didn't. My conclusion is that BBmolla isn't as towny as you want to believe.

I have yet to hear anything in the way shape or form of a case on BB from you other than “I was Townie as fuck in my stance and BB didn’t back me up” which rings pretty false to me. And the other points I have seen on BB as scum haven't really make much sense to me either.

You have something that might be convincing please by all means bring it to the forefront. Until then we’ve apparently gotten to the “No U” point of the discussion.

Are you serious? Even my bemoaning was half-assed yesterday. You've played with me before. When I'm "in" a game, I'm in it and I make my keyboard cry for mercy to prove my points, no matter the alignment.

So you should say that I should conclude you were bored Town Day 1 by virtue of your terrible reads and complete lack of scum-hunting?

You read my town-tell previous to this and could find nothing wrong with it (other than timing, apparently) so now you're just trying to re-convince yourself of your bias.

This is the only part of that whole paragraph that bears even discussing. What part of the phrases “I don’t really believe in ‘Town-tells’ in general’ and ‘KK could easily fake said tells as scum’ leads you to believe that said point had any bearing on my read on you?

Do you realize that you're telling me that you've calculated the area of a scum triangle with only one known point (Captain Ajax)?

You do realize that this is Mafia not Geometry so your attempt to state it impossible to find scum partners for Ajax from Day 1 isn’t really valid, right? Scum teams do get caught from relational tells to one partner. It isn’t some grandly novel idea.

The rest of this is just posturing and laziness. Re-generate your read on my given the new insight you've gained.

Re-generate my read on you whut? What new insights are you talking about?

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you don't care what my reasoning is, I don't see why I should provide it just to please you. I highly doubt that my reasoning is something no one else has realised, but if I need to convince people, I will.

Sure, if you want to self-select for me thinking you are useless by playing the “I’m not going to give my reasons until necessary” game then by all means go ahead.

I actually have a weak townread on theam now, but I do maintain that there is no way he is more town because of Ajax's flip. I do not like PoE that uses bad logic to clear people. It's noted that you're trying to paint me as scummy because of it.

1. It is simply your opinion that the PoE is bad. Most other people don’t believe so at this stage and we only have 2 remaining scum so it is hardly a case of only scum pushing that particular line of thought.
2. If you have a weak Townread on them your posts today bemoaning why other players have considered them Town are pointless. The only reason to keep going on about the issue is if you wanted to push a TheAm wagon. If you don’t understand how your stance is not Pro-Town given you have a Townread on TheAm it can be discussed post-game.

Er, have you read anything I've posted? Obviously the fact that The Fonz was the only one trying to get theam lynched supports theam-scum.

I’d love to have a gif-macro that says “No, no, no, no” to paste in here. You are completely looking at this backwards. The fact that Fonz was the only one actively pushing the lynch with scum-hunting yet TheAm had 4 votes is indication that he’s Town. Because the three other votes there (KK / Ajax / Magua) were made for questionable reasons. When you have people pushing a lynching without actually doing any substantiation it is a sign that it is a bad wagon … aka on Town.

Please enlighten with me with these supposedly abundant reasons for Reck being town. Slandaar and I were of the same opinion that people just wanted to think him town (which probably happens in every game where Reck is scum) with no good reason to think it. I'm not clearing Reck, but I think I have something which indicates Reck-town if Magua's town. And if Magua's scum, I don't really care because that means another scum is likely to be lynched. Instead of insulting me and pseudo-painting me as scummy can you actually be useful and tell me what's wrong with my reasoning?

Reck has made several posts that our QT have pointed out are Town Reck. That’s all I’m going to say on the matter. Honestly there is little to be gained at this stage by specifically giving behaviors out. He’s not getting wagoned today so there is no reason to go into detail to satisfy you. Live with disappointment on that today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Zar

– so first let me ask …. Why is your partner list made completely of Ajax to Other interactions from Post 480 and not based on interactions in both directions?

The Fonz Kill + players claiming to not have voted for Fonz to hold a scummie throws me off. Only somebody within Judging Group 1A could have known what award was being given out. Ajax was lynched, and unless scum have daytalk, there only way to tell his buddies about the award that was going to be given is if someone else within 1A is scum

I think it’s been parsed out pretty clearly that scum are more than likely to have Daytalk so going immediately to the assumption that there has to be scum besides Ajax in 1A is pretty poor.

Ajax was very much explored by everyone in here. His obvious lie of a claim was an evident hail-mary attempt to survive. I didn't end up voting him for the hammer because I wanted to post my Reck and DV when I got home. >.<

This is a complete non-answer. It doesn’t matter that Ajax was under fire by others. You specifically did not comment on ANYTHING about him until he had been put at L-1 and made his obvious fake-claim. No comment at all about the cases made by Quilford and I. Your complete lack of interaction in both directions fits the behavior of scum-buddies who don’t want to leave links to each other when 1 buddy is under fire (as Ajax was all day long).

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I did an ISO review of Fonz in the QT (too keep from cluttering the thread). If he was killed for reasons other than just snuffing out a PowerRole then I think those reasons would probably be one of the following if not a combination -

Mild suspicion of Zar ... it started the game strong but faded as the day went on.
Suspicion of Deas / TheAm
Last post where he specifically posted that he thought both KK and Magua aren't both scum together.

--

@Deas

-

That this game being your personal 5th choice for games a consideration should be given to your being here given your like for playing scum? I know specifically in Zach's game you outright stated you don't get lynched as scum. What were your partner's feelings on taking a possible scum role PM?

[MagnaofIllusion]

KK Short Case – why I think he’s scum.

1.

Complete lack of voting activity Day 1.

KK only made a single vote yesterday … a vote for TheAm in his first post that I have already said was suspect. The lack of votes does not fit with his ‘scum-hunting’ from Day 1.

He drops his vote on TheAm in Post 20. When is the next time he specifically mentions TheAm’s directly? Post 153 in his reads post where TheAm simply is gets the following line –

theamatuer - has yet to post anything pro-town.

He’s not calling him actual scum … simply saying that he hasn’t posted anything Pro-Town. Those are two different things. I think Deas’s posting today is completely Ant-Town but don’t consider him scum.

KK does in this same post call Quilford ‘scum’, say that Reck ‘scum-slipped’, and that he’s getting ‘scummy-vibe’ from T-Bone. And yet his vote is still parked on TheAm. More on Quilford and T-Bone below and note he never followed up with his Reck slip at all.

He instead makes attacking Quilford (who was on Ajax strongly), defending himself from me, and discussing judging with Hito between those posts. He then moves on to back and forth with BBMolla.

Next we get the following in Post 170 –

@BBmolla - Re: Quilford - I posted an observation and question to him in Post 131, he posted twice since then and didn't answer it. I figure calling him scum would get his attention. I didn't really expect it to attract your attention so strongly.

Here he’s saying that his calling Quilford scum wasn’t because he actually thought he was scum but to ‘get his attention’. He further elaborates in this post that his the pharases he used in Post 153 like ‘non-Town vibes’ were not meant to indicate actual suspicion. So he’s basically move away from calling anyone actual scum in 153. I think that’s important as it shows that he was not actually Town posting reads in 153 but scum putting out content after being pressured about not scum-hunting.

2.

Interactions between KK and Ajax.

From Post 133 we have the following chainsaw defense of Ajax in attacking Quilford –

Well, the thing is. You mention that Captain Ajax is attempting to buddy to xRECKONERx by flattering him (Post 67) which is a hell of a stretch. But theamatuer blatantly states "OMG its reckoner. He's like a legend." but that gets no reaction from you at all. Except after the fact where you mention that pretty town due to the enthusiasm involved.

The rest of your analysis in Post 4033077 seems to just another episode in a series of "Let me interpret anything said as a sign of scuminess". For fun, could you analyze MLK Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech for scumminess?

Here he is trying to handwave away suspicion of Ajax by Quil as an effort to just find scummy things as opposed to specifically addressing why posts (such as 125) were wrong. He also tries to portray Quilford as inconsistent for his disparate treatment of Deas and Ajax ala buddying.

Next in Post 153 we get the following read on Ajax –

Captain Ajax - His hitogoroshi vote was horrible. Both times. Overall though, he's not setting off any alarms.

The essence of fence-sitting. He points out behavior that he dislikes (the hito votes) but says that Ajax isn’t ‘setting off alarms’. No comment that he’s actually Town. It’s the perfect springboard to go any direction.\

That is the full extent of his Ajax interactions. Some attempts to defuse the wagon but nothing concrete at all regarding making an alignment commitment or showing posts from Ajax that showed Town / Scum intent.

As for Ajax’s interactions with him? None at all. KK does not merit a single mention in Ajax’s entire ISO.

3

. Response to being called scum by me Day 1.

I’ve already gone over this in detail. His vitriolic reaction to suggestions he was scum don’t really mesh well with a Town mindset. It’s one thing to suspect every player who looks at you with suspicion aka Deas. It’s another to go off on a rage tangent. If he is scum with Ajax the prospect of 2/3rds of his team being identified early Day 1 would certainly explain his over-reaction.

4

. His “There is no benefit to giving reads from your Teammates” stance.

Again … there is no downside to giving out the thoughts of your teammates in thread. If you are scum and flip such those thoughts can easily be ignored. However someone who flips Town will have those 3 other voices that can be considered also sets of Town eyes when players are considering who is scum. The only people who could possibly not think this is a good idea is the Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magua

- what has happened to your Hito suspicion from yesterday? You were pretty vocal about his judging block reasoning being bad. Also you never addressed my concerns that no-one else in your group seemed to have them.

@Zar / TheAm

- please weigh in on this without giving any direct details. Did you find hito's logic in the Day 1 judging QT to be suspect?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So, why are you bothering doing all this work bringing up a case on me? You've admitted that your critical thinking skills are deeply flawed, so predictably any and all attempts I have made to reason with you have failed. You are town. You are annoying. And you aren't as good at mafia as you think you are.

So what the fuck is this dog & pony show for?

Group 2C is done judging.

Vote: Magua

Let me summarize this portion of your post.

1. Insult insult insult empty rhetoric. Your attempt to undermine me by lying (as I have never said my critical thinking skills are deeply flawed, nice strawman there) and throwing mud (oh, I'm not as good as I think I am). The last part doesn't really speak well for you since I was at least able to catch Ajax while you, if Town, were derping it up attacking Quilford.

2. What's the best way for scum who have had a case made on them to try to avoid it? Dismissing it out of hand and not addressing any of the points. Which is exactly what you did with a nice extra touch of mudslinging (again) by calling it a 'dog and pony' show. If you want to discuss why all those points don't indicate scum intent in your play feel free. Otherwise this is "Hmmm, I can't actually refute that so let's just insult MoI".

3. Voting simply because your group is done yet no sign that other groups are? Yeah, I think that's scummy as fuck given what happened with the Best Newbie yesterday.

Consider my vote on KK the minute all groups are finished.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Let's everyone note that Magua is at L-3 right now.

My group is

DEFINATELY not

complete judging.

Any more votes for Magua put him within "Oops, wasn't paying attention wink wink nod nod" range to fuck the Judging process over. I don't think he's Town but I don't see the point in rushing today off until everything is tied up nicely. Hell two of the other games are still in N1.

Please give us the two days we have left before judging deadline to get this accomplished. We

REALLY

do not want scum free to decide this set of Scummies!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why do you expect me to have a townread on Reck when the reason you do is your QT?

I don’t expect you to have a Townread on things posted in my Team QT. I expect you to have a Townread on Reck for his posting in thread. Those posts are the things that led to our QT discussion. If you don’t then we can sort out that issue down the line if necessary. I really don’t see the point (much like why I didn’t see the point of going on and on about TheAm) given that Reck is not going to be lynched today.

Where did you get 5th choice from? I would have liked to be scum here, but I didn't have the choice to be scum and I'm not sure whether I would have taken scum if I did.

I got it from here …

Well fuck I have no idea where I got it from. In my memory someone else made mention of that fact and it reminded me to ask you about it given that I know you prefer scum.

But looking back I can’t find it. Perhaps I’m losing my mind …

Consider it not asked.

MoI: Slandaar wanted me to ask, why do you think the counterwagon on theam makes him town, but that the Gaoth counterwagon does not make his slot more likely town?

Let’s examine the course of events with Ajax / Gaoth / Magua and their wagons.

Gaoth’s first post comes when Ajax has picked up an early 3 vote wagon and is the leading vote-getter. Hito is in second place with 2. He immediately chooses to post the following regarding Ajax –

My one question so far is the scum read on Ajax. Seems premature. Are some of these still RVS that haven't moved?

Ajax is only at 3 votes. He’s hardly gotten an RVS wagon the likes of which we tend to see on this site. And given he’s posting on Page 3 it is entirely likely that he does have some RVS votes. But why is he worried about it?

Now fast forward to page 6. Ajax’s wagon sits at 4, Gaoth has gotten 3 votes (Zar, T-Bone, BBMolla). Ajax is on a Quilford wagon of 2 (and TheAm also has 2 votes).

Ajax says the ” This Gaoth lurker-wagon is far too easy.” . First off the ‘too easy’ part doesn’t make much sense given Gaoth barely has a wagon to being with. Secondly what motivation does scum Ajax have for staying away from the most viable counterwagon to himself. I can think of two reasons.

1. He doesn’t want to vote for his partner.
2. He was trying a ‘Town Cred” by not jumpin on a lurker wagon to show he’s not ‘despereate’.

Next at Post 148 Ajax says this about the slot –

Sadly, I don't think this wagon will pressure him to do much of anything. This looks like the classic flake-out. Perhaps I'm wrong, and the mod prod will get Gaoth back into the game. But more likely, he'll be replaced, and we'll be back to square one.

It's the age-old question: should lurkers be bandwagoned, or not? I think it's pretty pointless, personally.

Why does someone flaking mean that we have to go back to square one? That looks like he’s paving the way to say “Oh, that person replaced in so we have to give them every benefit of the doubt”

Scum generally don’t look for excuses to not to be able to push on Town players. Again, the outside possibility exists he was looking for ‘Town Cred’ as Gaoth had just picked up a 4th vote from Reck. But if that is the case I would expect at least one of his partners to be really trying to move the wagon on Gaoth forward. But in fact the opposite happens. BBMolla jumps ship from Gaoth to vote Ajax by page 8 making the wagons a 5-3 split. Additionally this is one of the strong reasons BB is very unlikely scum.

He unvoted Gaoth at Post 155. He specifically says he’s reserving his vote for Ajax but asks the Mod questions about lynch thresholds being unclear. And in the same post he also states that KK would be a great vote.

So if Gaoth and Ajax are partners why would hypo-partner BB hop from one to the other when BB specifically says hypo-Town KK is a great vote? No reason.

And if Gaoth and Ajax are not partners he has little reason as an Ajax Partner to leave the best counterwagon at the time to vote for his partner given the format of Team Mafia where bussing by scum is discouraged.

He further explicitly says that Gaoth’s inactivity is a Null tell in the same post while voting TheAm for lack of activity in the same post. The dichotomy is telling given that he already said in 148 that he didn’t personally believe lurkers should not be bandwagonned.

Lastly we have Magua’s initial reads Post 243 where he calls Ajax Town.

I think that the dueling behavior by the slots (both calling each other Town / defending the other / trying to reduce their wagons) is more likely to come from partners in this game. Yes, it is possible that the Gaoth / Magua slot as Town just honestly made a poor choice of words in initial post, flaked, and Magua bit big-time on the WhiteKnighting Ajax did when he replaced in. But at a gut level I would put those odds at 80-20 in favor of partnership.

--

You should re-read my posts from Open 320. The amount of posts I was able to make that had absolutely nothing to do with that game is actually quite impressive.

Well now I’m going to be a dick and say that you were Active Lurking via posting non-relevent content and not ‘lurking’. I specifically differentiate those. If you don’t then great we have ‘Semantics Wacky Shenanigans’!

Again … the fact that you didn’t bus there as scum is meaningful to the “Ajax and Gaoth / Magua” discussion at hand.

If you mentioned being concerned about no one else in the group being concerned, I missed that in your wall. I still don't agree with the choice that was made in group 1B, but at least half the people who made it have to be town, so, bleah. I don't agree with the strategy of trying to minimize losses rather than maximize gains, but I'm no longer willing to lynch hito over it.

Yes, I am. Here’s your discussion of why hito was scum when you replaced in.

My strongest scumread is hitogoroshi. Half of this is expected meta, and at least part of it is me drawing parallels to the play I saw in Metamafia[1] -- specifically, hito (who is, like me, a strong mechanics player) lobs it open with a question ("Should judges be secret?"), pokes at it a bit, but never goes deeper and never takes anything from it. It strikes me as more of a bone thrown to his own meta than actual thought.

Secondary example: hito thinks that the groups are divided 5, 5, 3 in #150, which would mean that the scum have perfect knowledge of who is in what group

(they're in at least two, so would know who's in the third by omission if nothing else).

But doesn't even raise his original point again or bring it back up. It's reactive, not proactive.

I’ll summarize this as the following –

1. Meta for Hito matching MetaMafia.
2. Hito thinking groups are in 5-5-3 means his early suggestion was not valid.

The first point I find bad as Hito had posted far more than simple mechanics during the game before you replaced in. Just looking at ISOs side by side and you can easily tell that Hito’s Post 47, Post 75, Post 113, and Post 138 at a glance show he’s delving into others to get reads and making pronouncements about alignments based on the thread itself. Hito was hardly ONLY posting regarding mechanics.

The second point is weak as if it is true that one group was “UnScummed” then scum would at best have to wait to see what Awards that group was giving out even with Daytalk. If scum on the off chance don’t have Daytalk (I think they do, but that’s not relevant to the point) and a group with a single scum member has that member lynched then scum are going to be very much in the dark about the make-up of both groups. Sure, they will know the totality of those players in the groups but will not have clear picture to help them with Nightkills.

No harm in keeping things secret as Town doesn’t benefit in knowing the groups the same Day. So keeping things under wrap during the Day can’t hurt and has a small chance of helping.

Did those reasons (which I disagree with) disappear also? Because simply ‘taking it all back’ at Post 315 after Ajax was a walking dead man isn’t something that makes much sense from an honest scum-hunting position.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well after looking at the Gaoth & Magua / Ajax wagon and interactions I’m pretty comfortable that Magua stands a good shot at being scum. And two scum lynches in a row puts this game on PoE to Victory mode.

@Magua

– Don’t bother waiting to claim anything important you think you have to claim as a matter of formality. I will hammer you when you are at L-1. Probably best to put anything you have to say out on the table for discussion purposes.

So if Magua does happen to flip Town I want KK dead by at worst Nightfall 3. Do NOT forget this fact if I die. Listen to dead Townies for once.

Group 2A

is

not yet

officially done for the record. I’ll let you know the second we are.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I see that KK has said Group 2C is complete.

@TheAm

- what is the status of group 2B?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have something I want to check.

What is it you wanted to check? Please be specific.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Zar

- curious why you stopped your PBPA reads with TheAm and didn't do KK despite saying that was the way you read players and never returned to it?

I'd like you to actually do that and post your actual thoughts on KK before today ends.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Group 2A has now completed it's judging process.

Still waiting for TheAm to confirm 2B is complete.

[MagnaofIllusion]

We're done

VOTE: KK

I'll be voting Magua the second he hits L-1.

Claim anything of note (including final thoughts) before I see that fact and hammer you if you aren't scum Magua.

[MagnaofIllusion]

For the record he is at 3 votes now.

I see 2 more in thread and

[]==========
==========[]

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, Regfan says if you hammer before he can reread the game this weekend and give his reads, he'll eat your babies.

Tell Regfan he's had 6 days to be reading the game. Why just now is he interested in re-reading?

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is essentially what happened, though I didn't 'white-knight' Ajax so much as I thought that the reason some people were giving for voting him was stupid and, by extension, scummy.

No, basically I was saying he WhiteKnighted your slot when Gaoth accumulated some votes and you ate it up like a Newb.

Eg, I never questioned yours nor Quilford's reasons for voting him, because they weren't based on that one thing that I still don't consider to be a slip.

Meh, the fact that you don’t consider scum-slips valid matters little to me given I do think they tend to be valid (as evidenced by Ajax being Obv-scum due to said slip among other things).

Because outside of inexperienced newbies, meta is the only reliable tell. Relatively certain I've posted this repeatedly in Mafia Discussion.

And pretty clearly you are wrong. Yes, I know this is MD material but I just wanted to take the chance to gloat. Yes, I’m being a jack-ass!

He has read the game. He wants to re-read to get his final words in.

This ‘turn of events’ is hardly unexpected. You’ve pretty much been the default lynch based on yesterday since the Day started. Why hasn’t Regfan been spending the last 6 days preparing his ‘last words’?

I think both scum are in (Zar, Kublai Khan, BBmolla). I know you (being MoI) are not a fan of BBmolla-scum, but I'm not seeing the reasons that you're seeing.

Sooo … why not KK as opposed to Zar?

And if you’d like to point out why my ‘BB isn’t scum’ which I posted a summary of in my post to Deas re: Ajax / yourself feel free. Otherwise I really don’t see reconsidering my position if you do flip Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I more or less agree Magua's analysis. I think theres only one scum among the three though

Stop skipping my questions to you TheAm.

You are starting to annoy me.

Why do you think there is only 1 scum among BB / KK / Zar?

Who is the other scum BESIDES that person?

What specifically did you want to 'check' with an Investigation role?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Magua

L-1

Grade A content BB.

Who is Magua's partner?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't really like KK as scum unless by some serious shenanigans Magua is town. Part of it is just this spat with MoI, which seems out of character for a scumbag looking at a long, long game, I guess.

I understand your thinking on this but don’t necessarily agree. KK as scum isn’t really in position to do anything but go toe to toe with me. I called him scum Day 1 while lynching Ajax. Clearly appeasing me by calling me Town isn’t going to work so his only options are to

1. Ignore me (not a good idea as scum)
2. Fight with me

Now that being said – what about my ‘KK case’ as presented do you think isn’t good (independent of the whole Fonz / Magua element, of course)?

We know Fonz was town; for all we know he might've even been killed for this thought. (Who's the one who brought it up? I think MoI but don't remember)

I was the one who originally theorized this. I’ve thought about this and honestly don’t think it is probably true.

Here’s what I’ve concluded.

1. Scum have some way of monkeying with the process.
2. The process ends BEFORE a lynch occurs.
3. Scum have to be able to do said monkeying BEFORE a lynch occurs.
4. The only way this can happen is if scum have daytalk.

So I’m really more of the mind Fonz was killed to kill off the Best Newbie Award (which scum obviously know what it did).

Hey, can I be hammerkeeper since I wanna do a bit more and Ajax --> Magua is my baby?

I’m fine with that. I’ll keep my vote parked on KK-scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hmm. If Magua is scum, then Zar 11 is a pretty bright mark on his record. Ajax/Gaoth-Magua/Zar would be pretty weird. Not impossible because Zar hopped on BBm later and called Gaoth a dead end, but still.

Yeah, I tend to agree.

That said that post makes Zar far more likely to be scum if Magua does flip Town since Zar is attacking someone preemptively for making a 'bad vote' on the wagon Zar was also on.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because I think theres scum somewhere else.

I have an idea, but I'd need to check to be certain.
Hence I want the investigation. I believe I've found a certain scum, but problem is theres not much evidence, and the person is good enough to discredit and ignore any accusations or cases I make against him.

Well maybe you should voice your suspect. Who knows, scum might Nightkill you tonight to silence your epic levels of scum-hunting.

Yes, engage full on sarcasm blasters for that statement.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Magua ... you are telling me that in all the detailed reads that Reg didn't have direct details about either KK or myself?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also for the record - KK having less total posts than Ajax at this stage of the game combined with his general activity strikes me very much as scum trying to keep their head down and out of the spotlight.

I'd really like a KK lynch. Or a big fat bullet in his brain tonight.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod – I’ll be LA from today at 5pm EDT until Tuesday morning for usual weekend family duties. It is extended from the usual Monday return due to the holiday

--

@Hito

– I know you want to be hammer keeper so I’m specifically not hammering Magua right now. Please do not wait past Saturday night unless you have significant reasons to do so since I would hate to come off my LA to sitting in Nighttime. Yes, I’m being greedy.

--

Also, he hates reading your posts.

This is why Reg and I get along.

Ok. Tell Regfan I hope he dies of painful syphilis!

--

Yes. And, what's the problem with that, again?
List of possible scenarios in which an evil Molla could have hopped into the same wagon:
#1) Bussing and distancing.
#2) Gaining town cred by hopping into a wagon early on.

The problem is that you started drawing conclusions about BBMolla’s vote on Gaoth before Gaoth had already flipped. And you didn’t do it in a way that was conditional (i.e. saying “If Gaoth flips scum I’m looking at BBMolla as partner for his weak hop that demonstrates blah blah blah …”). You immediately took after in a way that says to me you know Magua’s alignment before he flips.

That said – your response here indicates that you are looking at BBMolla as scum distancing from a partner. What if Magua flips Town? What does that say of BBMolla then?

I also agree with Magua in that Post 519 does look very much like I forced you to comment on your partner. No conclusion about him being scum … just a list of things you feel need commenting on. I get the sense you never would have completed your read on KK if I hadn’t called you on it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

same goes for everyone who gave out best newbie. I think most of you already did but I have a final in eight hours so I'm not gonna scrounge around and check.

This has already been done.

Reck gave to BB
Quil and I gave to you
T-Bone claimed a late vote to Zar
We don't know who Ajax gave to.

[MagnaofIllusion]

All groups need to give their Day 2 members.

Group 2A was myself, Quilford, T-Bone and Zar.

Also all members who gave out the Best IC should indicate when it happened and if Quilford getting it was the group approved decision.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Hito - what was your suggestoiin in Post 20?

[MagnaofIllusion]

First some information dump –

Judging Groups with Alignment Color Codes

–

Group 1A – Reck,

Quilford

, T-Bone,

Captain Ajax

,

MoI

: Gave Best Newbie
Group 1B – Hito,

Magua

, Zar, Theam,

Fonz

Group 1C – KK, BBMolla, DeaVail

Group 2A - MoI,

Quilford

, T-Bone and Zar.
Group 2B - TheAm, hito, BBmolla, and

Magua

: Gave Best IC
Group 2C – KK, Reck, Deas

Final Day 1 Vote Count with Alignment Color Codes

–

Captain Ajax

(7) - hitogoroshi,

Quilford

, DeasVail, BBMolla, T-Bone,

MagnaofIllusion

,

Magua

theamatuer (3) - Kublai Khan,

Fonz

,

Captain Ajax

Magua

(1) - xRECKONERx
BBmolla (2) - theamatuer, Zar

[MagnaofIllusion]

So what do I take from those bits –

I think KK is the best lynch for today. Aside from thinking he’s totes scum (as my case indicated) his flip either way gives us valuble relational information –

1. Him flipping scum clears BBMolla, DeaS and TheAm. You can argue with me if you want but no way that both unknown scum were in the 3 player group Day 1 or both remaining scum were in the 3 player group Day 2. Also KK and Ajax scum both being on TheAm when BB was a viable alternate wagon to TheAm means all three aren’t partners.

2. Alternately him flipping Town means that TheAm actually makes a very good scum possibility since Captain Ajax’s jump onto TheAm was with 3 confirmed Townies (Magua, Fonz and KK-Town). Odds are that was last second distancing given he could have also moved to BBMolla if he actually wanted a Town counterwagon.

So after I finish responding to the rest of the thread I’m probably dropping a KK vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

and why the hell did you guys go and lynch Magua

See it is posts like this that are making me re-think my “TheAm shouldn’t be lynched today”. Because there is no Town motivation in posting this but plenty of scum motivation in grabbing “I was right” cred.

You notice I wasn’t voting for Magua yesterday. I thought KK was a better choice. But that doesn’t make me think Magua was a bad lynch given how Day 1 played out.

But this … this “How could you do that he was soooo Town” coming from a player who did NOTHING to prevent said lynch (your contribution was sheeping onto Zar). Nada. You plopped down your vote and just cruised.

Because Of a reason that I'll explain in- depth later

Well why don’t you consider later now!

oh right. We have a secret double voter here. I'd like that double voter to vote me just to confirm his/her existence, just so scum can't abuse it lylo/mylo or something

I myself would love to know how you came by this conclusion.

--

please read this fragment and tell me what conclusions you draw.

Um, whut?

You are asking me to draw a conclusion based on information I am not privy to from a single post from Magua?

Conclusions I can draw –

Magua had a Town read on you given his willingness to follow your suggestion and not seeing any strong scum-motivations in it.

Quilford’s reads Day 2 may be better than mine if scum if Quilford was killed blind.

There may be a scum leak in your group between TheAm and BBmolla since Quilford (who was ostensibly the first choice for the power) was taken out.

[MagnaofIllusion]

People in the 1a scummies judging group: I know how the votes fell (at least how everyone claimed they fell), but what was the discussion about votes in the QT? ie, can you list who claimed to be voting who when the QT closed, who claimed to be voting within a list, and who never claimed their votes?

I'll field this ... there was no actual discussion about who to give it to in the QT. I take the blame for that (shared by Reck and Quil to a small degree as they were also voting) as I didn't read up on the QT specific rules and hammered the Best Newbie before discussion about who to give it to started.

It's one of the reasons I sort went batshit yesterday about 2A not being complete. I wanted to make sure I didn't participate in another Judging that didn't fully get it's shit together before deciding the award officially.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The "Quilford gets a PR then dies" happenance is suspicious as fuck. If I have any credibility at all I'd say that the scum are within {theamatuer, Zar, BBmolla}.

Why Zar in that set?

[MagnaofIllusion]

My group has a scum-read on him. They think that the Fonz's kill was a attempt to remove a lurker-hunter from the game. They feels that Zar (along with theamatuer & BBmolla) fit the profile of "possible lurker-scum".

Well let’s discuss two specific elements of this –

1. Regarding Fonz dying to prevent ‘lurker hunting’ –

First of all who in your group espouced this. Is it a universal stance?

Second – your group theory is that Fonz was killed to snuff out a known lurker-hunter (which he claimed was true Day 1) and the scum just happened to get lucky that he was also assigned the Best Newbie Scummie?

2. Your group’s ‘possible lurker-scum’ –

Why is it that your lurker-scum group includes Zar (37 posts), TheAm (31 posts) and BBMolla (49 posts) but does not include T-Bone (20 posts)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Hito

– please confirm that Group 1B gave out a Secret Doublevote Day 1 as TheAm has indicated. Also … is there any reason why he would NOT know who had it based on QT discussion?

@Deas

– yesterday you were all up in arms, as they say, about how I was no longer a Town read. What about yesterday after our back and forth changed your mind?
--

VOTE: KK

I’m not seeing anything in these responses that deters me from my initially posted thoughts today.

I explained my town-read on T-Bone a while back. His longest post (Post 242) was where he gave his reasoning for jumping onto the Captain Ajax wagon. If that was a bus, then it's the least bussingest bus that I've ever seen.

I explained at Post 510 (in my answer to Deas as to why TheAm made sense as a counterwagon to Ajax) why BBMolla makes little sense as scum given his vote flip to Ajax. You seem happy to eliminate the player with the least posts in the game as possible lurker-scum but ignore the reasoning on others. Do not care for.

What's your read on xRECKONERx?

Town. Scum Reck would not have passively let partner Ajax get lynched when he had a chance to further push the Gaoth / Magua wagon he was on for a time Day 1.

Add in his Quilford vote / retraction and other elements (his QT play Day 1) and he’s solid Town.

--

Alright, so... I got a secret double vote thingamajig from the first round of judging.

So this explains TheAm’s comment.

1) If scum have some kind of "steal scummy" ability, I sure as fuck do NOT want them with a doublevote.

I will chime in and say “I doubt they do”. One of the Scummies we had to choose from Day 2 in group 2A was just this – a scummy stealing ability. After getting Mod clarification it was quickly eliminated from contention as it had no Town upside.

I don’t think that scum would have the potential to get access to multiple versions of the same ability. Especially with the limits on awards we have seen (especially Best Newbie from Day 1).

@Reck

– can I get some input from you regarding my “KK is today’s best lynch” reasoning from Post 592? What do you and your team think of that line of thought?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@hito

– I’d like your thoughts on what way you think we should proceed to lynch today. Also – who did you officially vote for yesterday?

@Zar

– who is scum. I see your posts today are filled with comments but no real push to actually call out anyone as scummy.

--

MoI: Why are you considering theam as possible scum now and not yesterday?

I find it interesting that yesterday I was trying to say theam wasn't necessarily town, and no one listened to me and now theam being possible scum is a popular belief.

Because Mafia is a game of incomplete information. My TheAm as possible scum is driven by the information provided by the alignment of those on his wagon. Multiple scum (Ajax + another) makes him a terrible lynch for reasons already stated.

Magua who was one of those on the wagon (until he hopped to hammer Ajax) who I suspected of being scum. KK is the other. If both of those players end up Town then the implications of the late push on TheAm and the impliciation of Ajax’s hop changes.

This was already explained to you. Why are you asking about it now. Do you not understand the process of how reads shift based on new information?

Also you didn’t answer my question – why did your MoI is no longer a townread. I'm going to reconsider. statement vanish at the start of today?

--

I posted my thoughts early in Day 2. Nobody cared much except for MagnaofIllusion. I'll re-read and post new thoguhts later tonight.

And if I don't agree with my teammates, then I don't post their thoughts.

Funny, because I thought that posting thoughts of teammates was a scummy action. No-one asked you originally what your teammates thought of Fonz’s death. Yet you are suddenly happy to share what your QT has after going freaking crazy Day 1 when I did the same.

@KK

– I’d certainly like you to give your actual list of who is scum at this stage sometime soon.

--

If anyone wants to look into all players off the Ajax wagon, a complete list is more useful than one with players that have been removed from it.

Do you think the rest of the playerbase is incapable of looking up said list themselves or recognizing that a Town player has no reason to place themselves on a list of possible scum as they know they are Town?

--

I do think it's a little unsafe to declare "these people are cleared if this person is scum", because it's not 100%. I really want a lynch on theamateur, but I'm not married to that and could be easily swung to KK if that's majority/half opinion.

While I understand your point I am at a place that a KK scum-flip means (in the wording of Llamamarble) I’m confident enough in my analysis I’d be willing to be lose the game if I was wrong regarding those clears.

My problem with a TheAm lynch today is that he is always pretty damn terrible and I’ve got that old ‘Furc’ itch in the back of my brain regarding terribad Town. Then again after DC Universe Mafia perhaps it is better to get the VI out of the way early.

I’ll mull …

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Zar

- Still waiting in your reads list ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@BB

– who is scum? I want your top three suspects with reasons why (at least three sentances) in your next post.

Also I hate your ‘coinflip’ reasoning for who you have the Scumie to. Not getting a unifed front in QT Day 1 ended up allowing scum to manipulate to get Fonz the Scummie and kill him. Leaving that possibility open from your Day 2 group is horrible play.

@EVERYONE

– I want you to look at KK’s posting and tell me that comes from Town. He’s still posting on site while ignoring this game. And yes, posting in GD and other places takes less effort than games. That doesn’t mean it’s not indicative of scum who don’t feel like faking the effort of pretending to scum-hunt. He overall has fewer posts than Fonz (who died Night 1), Magua (who replaced late Day 1 and was lynched yesterday) and the Mod. He barely has more posts than scum lynched Day 1. I posted a case on his behavior that I think indicates scum intent. Please tell me what about my case isn’t compelling and convincing at this stage of the game. His response has been basically “MoI is a poopyhead for making a case on me”. Remember … KK has voted for two players this entire game. 1 of which has flipped Town.

@T-Bone

– do you think KK is scum? Please answer in your next post with reasoning.

--

Why was Quilford killed anyways? The only reason seems to be because of the PR.
Also this is a proddodge. Will have something interesting up soon that is not my long and important case but will help it.

Urge to lynch TheAm rising …

--

I still think that, of the players off the Ajax wagon, KK is most likely partnered to him.

Then why are you not voting for him?

--

I think his posts demonstrate that he doesn't relate to me as town.

So? Honestly your play hasn’t been spectacularly sparkling Town. Is this an extension of the “only scum would suspect me” stance you have floated in the past? Because clearly Fonz’s flip shows that to be a deeply flawed theory.

-I didn't intend to cancel out any opinions, except perhaps with BBmolla. But the key issue here is, how is stating uncertain reads (along with reasoning for being uncertain) not helping town? I, unlike scum (perhaps including you), can not make myself certain of reads.

You have yet to establish how stating uncertain reads helps Town at all. All you are doing in those large reads posts is telling us basically nothing. It’s one thing to adjust your reads each Day based on new information. It’s another to give reads that, as Zar has demonstrated, don’t appear to come to any definite conclusion on players.

-I've been demonstrating town intent all game. It is up to you to recognise it. To specifically try to demonstrate town intent would be scummy.

This is basically “No U”. You can’t just say you have been showing Town intent and not expect people who don’t see it to just go “Ok, nevermind”.

--

I voted for you to get the scummie. Magua did too. That's why I'm really wondering why it went to Quilford. And I think that we can connect this to the Fonz getting Best Newbie if we work it through. But I need to hear from BBMolla and theam (anytime with your in-depth reason) before I can try to game it out. I'm gunshy about setup speccing too hard after Ponybash Invitational but I want to look at this at least.

There isn’t much to really delve into on this IMO (and from your latest post I think you agree). Regardless of whether scum was in your QT or not there is every reason to think that with everyone there being Town and telling the truth about their votes that Quil just won a Coin-flip over me to get the Scummie. His death still gives the possibility that there was scum there and the scum manipulated the results to assure the Scummie died at Night. If that is the case then the question still remains – why choose to funnel to Quilford over me. Or outright just kill him over me with no Scummie consideration? I think we both had pretty strong overall general “Town” reads from the playerbase. So that leads me back to thinking his reads might be more accurate than mine.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It also doesn't mean it's not indicative of town who doesn't feel like putting effort into the game.

Logical fallacies, I don't think you get them

It's hardly a logical fallacy.

I'll put it simply. Town was put in a very good position Day 1 with the Ajax lynch. Any Townie who isn't completely made of fail should be very interested in doing their utmost to find the remaining two scum and win this game for themselves, their Town, and their Team.

I don't think by any stretch KK is made of fail as a general player. He certainly doesn't have a Best Serial Killer scummie for being incompetent at this game.

Yet his play here by no stretch of the imagination shows any hint of 'Town wanting to find scum' IMO. His Day 1 reads were pretty universally terrible (TheAm being the only unknown ... he was clearly wrong about Ajax and Quilford). Day 2 he hopped on the Magua express to mislynch Town. Today he's done nothing.

I appreciate that you take one small part of my post and straw-man my statement. Yes, that's sarcasm.
You've stated you think KK is very Town for his QT play. That's fantastic. I can't see said play and based on his in-thread play I don't see him as Town.

If you want to demolish my case on him feel free. But just throwing this down isn't helpful.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I see Kublai is continuing to spread out his posts to a prod-dodge level and continues to hope that others who actually post in the thread get attention and thus lynched. Classic scum lurking.

@Hito

– Post 665 is very intellectually lazy and I’m quite disappointed. You’ve vaulted T-Bone to your top suspect simply based on a single post today. When you get back I expect you to move your vote to KK. You got your Magua wagon yesterday when KK was much more likely to flip scum. Furthermore you are going to have to really sell lynching a second player from Group 1A given we have already got a scum flip from there. So just vote KK.

@T-Bone

– vote KK. A KK flip more or less rules TheAm out as the third scum. KK’s been obv-scummy all game.

--

MoI: I'll address anything else later, but I'm afraid I'll have to disagree about my uncertain reads. They've generated a lot more discussion than my read on Zar, for example. Also, it's only Molla that I haven't reached a stance on.

How shocking that you disagree with someone’s assessment that your play isn’t very Town oriented

I’ll be frank … this is pure fluff and pointless posting.

Also, I don't have an everyone is scum who suspects me theory.

That’s quite funny. Because you specifically indicated that Fonz was suspect in Post 336 and Post 337 for having suspicion of you despite calling him Town / Null all Day 1 prior to that. Your stance moved him to scum only after he called you out.

You ‘retracted’ my Town-read Day 2 because I dared call you out for your Anti-Town behavior.

As to you suspecting Zar before he started in on you let’s look at that from a factual standpoint.

Post 195 – He’s specifically null and ‘to be worked out later’. Sorry, that’s not suspicion that’s “I can’t be arsed to commit to anything”

Post 250 –

There's a reason why I think Zar is town, but I want to wait before revealing it.

That sure as hell doesn’t look like suspicion to me. In fact it’s the opposite.

Ok, if Zar's post voting for BBmolla was serious, then he's scummy, but saying BBmolla is lurky, probably can't come from scum. Can it?

Look .. more lines of post that mean nothing.

Post 509 –

Magua: I will have a decent townread on Reck if you flip town, yes. Zar is my weakest townread, so I guess I'd look at him. I'm not quite sure who else though. Why did you want to know?

Oh look again – he’s your weakest Townread. That’s still not suspicion.

Post 590 –

Zar- I think he could be scum. How he comes around to thinking Magua scum does seem suspicious. 558 is like "I voted for Magua so I better start attacking him", but sometimes he seems genuine. Question: Why were you so dramatic in your vote for Molla Day 1? Why did you leave yourself in the lists in 408?

So only after Day 3 starts do we have any sign of Zar not being scum. So your ‘I suspected Zar way before he began in on me’ hardly is a stance that you aren’t trying to retrofit.

And Ajax defended me if anything.

Your point?

MoI: I do not recall being overly impressed by your case on KK and the stuff about him in 656 is particularly unconvincing, so it does little to override my reasons for thinking him town.

Well honestly we are at an impasse because I think your ‘Town tell’ reason for saying KK is Town is monumentally stupid. You want to point out what is wrong with the case I wrote Day 2 have at it. Given you just want to handwave it away and keep defending my strongest scum-read I’m really not all that interested in your theories at this point.

Why are you attacking me when Zar is saying that I should try harder to look like I have town intent?

It’s called scum-hunting. Why are you so shocked that you would be suspected? There are two scum left. You are one of my non-Town reads. Further you keep ardently defending my top scum-read KK. Your little back and forth with Zar leads me to believe that the two of you aren’t partners.

You sudden interest in T-Bone prompted only by Hito’s suspicion when prior to Post 667 you have consistently called him Town also dings my scum-dar.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It really shouldn't considering what you know of me.

No, flippant one-liner responses don’t fly at this stage. What, exactly, should I know about you that would make your sudden suspicion understandable from a Town perspective. I’d like an actual explanation.

I suspected (and even voted for) someone who defended me! Shocking, I know.

Again, your point? Do you think the possibility that scum partners would take disparate routes of treatment of each other is unusual given Zach’s game where I distanced heavily from fitz and he constantly called me Town?

Please explain to me why your vote on Ajax wasn’t the weakest of all non-Magua votes on the wagon. With links if you are up to it!

Thanks for reminding me about that reason I had for calling Zar town. I've actually forgotten completely what it was. I may try and work it out.

Oh, so you had a secret reason for Zar being Town that you’ve forgotten and only when I reminded you of it do you feel the need to ‘reasssess’?

So you think I'm scum with KK, or....?

Also, what do you think of KK asking my alignment preference considering I know both Amrun and Kuribo would have reason to think I'd take scum?

Have you been reading? This is a serious question.

I clearly don’t think you are scum with KK. My “these players are pretty solidly clear” statement when discussing his hypo-flip at the start of the Day laid that out clearly.

Your play in calling him Town is pretty damn inexplicable to me at this stage. You are basically ignoring the entirety of his play that is scummy in thread based on your ‘Town tell’. That stinks to high heaven of an invented ‘Town read’. If KK is Town I think you shoot to the top of my list (along with TheAm) for scum. You are treating him like I treated you in Zach’s game – sticking with a Town read for no good reason.

I want KK dead first as he’s to me the most obvious scum in the thread by far. I can buy you Town being terrible in reading Scum-KK (much like Magua was in reading Ajax) by far more than I can buy you Town having a Town read on Town-KK.

I don’t think anything of him asking your alignment preference. I’m not sure what your point is on that.

Oh and my point was that he didn't call me scum until after I started calling him scum, and my suspicion on Fonz wasn't just because he suspected me. I thought my reasoning was decent.

Clearly the flip shows your reasoning on Fonz was terrible.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd still like to discuss the 2B thing as a contingent plan. MoI, what are your thoughts about someone in that group being scum, since Quilford was killed with a scummie?

I think it is impossible to tell honestly if there is a member of that group that is scum or not. Thanks to Captain Coinflip and TheAm claiming to split with Hito / Magua and those statements lining up with the QT discussion (from the posts in thread) we really have no way to conjecture. Now had all four members said “I gave it to MoI” then we’ve to something to chew on.

That reminds me … I need to review the order of claims made about who voted for who at a later date.

--

It's a jailkeep.

See now I want to lynch you out of spite for not giving it to me. Yes, I’m about half serious in this statement.

--

I've... done that already. theamatuer, BBmolla, Zar (prob), xRECKONERx (poss).

@TheAm / BB / Reck

– he thinks you are scum. Vote for him to prevent him from pushing mislynches on you!

@hitogoroshi - Your T-Bone vote is bad and you should vote better.

Agreed. He needs to vote you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's false. And misleading considering Day 2 wasn't a typical mafia day (what with all the judging going on).

That's right ... Day 2 you shouldn't have made cases and tried to lynch those players you suspected. Nope you should have just dropped a vote on Town like you did and avoided posting as much as possible

Can we please just lynch this pile of scumminess?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The brand-spanking new KK is scum case

–

1. Terrible voting record

Here’s a summary of every one of KK’s votes this game –

Post 20 –

VOTE: theamatuer
1) OMGUS
2) policy
3) xRECKONERx-buddying

His only vote Day 1 is made in RVS.

Post 494 and Post 565– His Day 2 votes for Magua, split up when I beat him about the head voting before all judging groups were complete.

Post 585 – Day 3’s herp-a-derp back on TheAm.

That’s it. Aside from Day 2 where he slid right onto the obvious choice for the day (and on Town FTR) his vote has been stranded on TheAm the entire game. This moves into the next point …

2. Complete lack of actual scum-hunting.

Let’s examine the scum-hunting that KK has done to support his TheAm votes.

I’ve already posted a link to 20 and his original RVS vote for TheAm. Clearly it’s RVS since none of the three points are actual scum-tells. So let’s examine the supporting scum-hunting he did to support keeping said RVS vote on TheAm and support making his Day 3 vote on TheAm again …

Post 153 –

theamatuer - has yet to post anything pro-town.

Yup, this is the next mention of his thoughts about TheAm as they related to TheAm’s alignment (not using TheAm to attack others like he did with Quilford in Post 133). Yup, he’s saying absolutely nothing. And as already addressed he didn’t move his vote to either of the players (Quilford or Reck) he called scum in said post 153 (and we have already addressed how he back-tracked on those being actual scum reads which further demonstrates he’s scum).

Now let’s examine Post 165. Why you ask? Because here he does an PBPA ISO of BBMolla to specifically show that BB is scummy. No vote for BBmolla or hint of a TheAm similar case. That’s of course because he’s scum faking it as opposed actually scum-hunting.

Now onto Post 210 –

What? I uncovered theamatuer-scum & Quilford-scum. My efforts are not appreciated.

What a cheeky fucking scumbag we have here. Notice he uncovered TheAm ‘scum’ with an RVS vote and did nothing with it. And here he is calling obv-Town Quilford scum since his partner Ajax had yet to flip.

And that is the entirety of his scum-hunting on TheAm related to Day 1. What you say … there was none? That’s why he needs rope.

Post 429 – Now Day 2 we get the closest to actual scum-hunting from KK regarding TheAm in the following …

theamatuer is a wildcard. He's been absolutely useless. I mean, I know he's a VI, but 219 is ridiculously bad. Plus he's the only one that asked for a claim, then seems to honestly consider it to be valid (310). So it's the age-old question of "dumb or scum?"

And what’s most funny is that he’s not even willing to commit to TheAm as scum. He fence-sits calling him a VI and wildcard. Note that he calls Post 219 ridiculously bad without bothering to actually explain why.

Then in Post 471 we get KK asking TheAm to replace out. Here’s a question for you … if you think a VI player is scum do you ask them to replace out for a competent teammate to take the slot making the job of lynching scum more difficult? Mull that over while you read the rest of the case on KK …

And that’s it for Day 2. Where is that case again? No-where to be seen.

Day 3 opens with another vote for TheAm with no support at Post 585.

He lays a ‘TheAm was lazy Day 2’ attack on at Post 596 (that I agree with from the standpoint that TheAm was a useless bastard about the Magua lynch).

Yup … that is the absolute extent of his scum-hunting on TheAm. I’ll summarize his case for you …

1. RVS
2. TheAm is a VI
3. TheAm didn’t fight Magua’s lynch hard enough.

That’s it. Hard to believe Town-KK has parked his vote on TheAm for basically 2 full game days based on that.

I could do the same and analyze his ‘Magua’ suspicions if necessary. But I think this is enough for the moment. He’s not actually scum-hunting but instead flailing on defense.

3. Captain Ajax links (yes, this is copy / pasted from my first case)

From Post 133 we have the following chainsaw defense of Ajax in attacking Quilford –

Well, the thing is. You mention that Captain Ajax is attempting to buddy to xRECKONERx by flattering him (Post 67) which is a hell of a stretch. But theamatuer blatantly states "OMG its reckoner. He's like a legend." but that gets no reaction from you at all. Except after the fact where you mention that pretty town due to the enthusiasm involved.

The rest of your analysis in Post 4033077 seems to just another episode in a series of "Let me interpret anything said as a sign of scuminess". For fun, could you analyze MLK Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech for scumminess?

Here he is trying to handwave away suspicion of Ajax by Quil as an effort to just find scummy things as opposed to specifically addressing why posts (such as 125) were wrong. He also tries to portray Quilford as inconsistent for his disparate treatment of Deas and Ajax ala buddying.

Next in Post 153 we get the following read on Ajax –

Captain Ajax - His hitogoroshi vote was horrible. Both times. Overall though, he's not setting off any alarms.

The essence of fence-sitting. He points out behavior that he dislikes (the hito votes) but says that Ajax isn’t ‘setting off alarms’. No comment that he’s actually Town. It’s the perfect springboard to go any direction.\

That is the full extent of his Ajax interactions. Some attempts to defuse the wagon but nothing concrete at all regarding making an alignment commitment or showing posts from Ajax that showed Town / Scum intent.

As for Ajax’s interactions with him? None at all. KK does not merit a single mention in Ajax’s entire ISO.

4. His reactions to pressue and his reaction to being called out by my teammates –

Read points 3 and 4 from Post 492 if you need this point to convince you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So read the above.

If you have a problem with it tell me why in reasons that aren't batshit insane.

Otherwise hang KK.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from 4:00pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Something that’s been in the back of my mind and I want to discuss before I die …

Judging QTs and Movement …

Group 1A – Reck,

Quilford

, T-Bone,

Captain Ajax

,

MoI

Group 1B – Hito,

Magua

, Zar, Theam,

Fonz

Group 1C – KK, BBMolla, DeaVail

Group 2A -

MoI

,

Quilford

, T-Bone and Zar.
Group 2B - TheAm, hito, BBmolla, and

Magua

Group 2C – KK, Reck, Deas

The make-up of these groups points directly to the probability that the groups were not randomly determined. Why you say? Because the fact that we don’t have more mix-up in the groups Day to Day. Here are the changes to the groups total from Day 1 to Day 2 that are NOT based on removals via death.

Reck – moves from 1A to 2C
Zar – moves from 1B to 2A
BB – moves from 1C to 2B

That’s a nice little rotation. And if you buy into the concept that scum can’t be put in position to control any group then we have the following possibilities eliminated as far as scum-teams are concerned –

KK – BB
KK – Deas
KK – Reck
Reck – T-Bone
T-Bone – Zar
TheAm – hito
TheAm – BB
Hito – BB

I think looking into VCA and dayplay and you can really narrow down the possible partnerships further.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Deas

– I see Post 686. Suffice it to say your list can be summed up as follows –

1. Town-tell. Don’t buy said explained tell.
2. WIFOM junk.
3. WIFOM junk.
4. Asking about you alignment? Um, whut?

Yeah given you have said not one thing to dispute my post explaining his scumminess I’ll declare our discussion at an end regarding KK.

--

I don't think it's a good idea to rule that possibility out. I think scum would gain little benefit of acting against town will in the Judging QTs, since, were they majority within a category:

1) forcing a non-consensus would make them obvscum.
2) forcing a pro-scum role would also make them obvscum.

I really don’t care whether you think it is a good possibility or not to be frank.

This is a 10-3 set-up. 10-2 Mountaineous is balanced. 10-3 is not.

All possible Town Power-roles are controlled by QT. Giving scum complete control of the destination of any Power-role via controlling the secret votes is poor game design / management. For example … say scum controlled group 3A Day 1 via a 2-1 distribution. They could control the destination for said scummy regardless of what Scummie was chosen and automatically give it to their partner. They further have access to a second group’s information to possibly manipulate said Scummie to prevent Town from using it (via Nightkill or manipulating it to a Scum member in 3A if possible). That’s giving scum the possibility of controlling / eliminating 2/3rds of the possible Power-roles from Day 1 when Town can still possibly mis-distribute the third.

The game as it stands is more difficult than normal 10-3 Power-role set-ups as it requires an additional level of accuracy in not only lynching but also in effectively distributing the available Power-roles. Further allowing scum to possibly control 2/3rds of the Day 1 Powerroles isn’t good game design.

I can make all sorts of arguments via statistics that further show it unlikely. But the fact that they chose 5-5-3 instead of 5-4-4 tells me that the distribution was NOT 100% random. As is the make-up Day to Day of the Judging QTs that showed minimal movement of players.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Anyone object to me using my secret vote and hammering KK whenever we're ready to end the day?

Nope, not at all.

I think the only thing we are perhaps waiting on is for BBMolla to get his reads realigned.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I do too, obviously.

Zar makes a good point in Post 699.

unvote

vote: BBmolla

Hey look ... I'll make a vote with the only reasoning being someone else's post. So much for my well established TheAm case that I've parked my vote on for 2 days. Oh that's right ... said case doesn't exist.

Obv scum is obv!

[]========
========[]

[MagnaofIllusion]

2. Sucessful rolecop.

Very doubtful this is a Scum ability. It was an option to give out for Group 1A.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wouldn't scum do better?

Lulz wouldn't scum do better.

Stop being abjectly terrible Deas.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I had a large post written up vis-a-vie the Cognitive Dissonance between KK calling BB scum for using a coinflip to decide where to send the Scummie while agreeing with a basically identical plan in his own QT Night 2 but apparently he has been hammered.

I will say that a Coinflip plan was incredibly Anti-Town as it only served to assure that scum could more easily manipulate the votes in a 3 member group but at this stage it isn’t worth screaming about.

--

At least it means I'm not scum

Nope, not at all. Scum can be abjectly terrible in their play just like Town.

Here’s the facts – none of the arguments you’ve made for KK as Town are meaningful at all to anyone not Deas. You threw down lots of pointless WIFOM. You didn’t address how the points I made for him being scum come from a Town perspective. You’ve basically said “HEY GUIZ MY JUDGING BUDDY IS TOTES TOWN LEAVE HIM ALONE” which is useless.

Now if you are Town and did this go back to the drawing board on how you play the game.

If you are scum looking for “told you so” cred on a KK Town flip you pretty much assured that you will get none.

--

Go ahead and hammer. Ask me something if you want.

Who is actually scum? Post 728 has a bunch of “I don’t like this” statements with no analysis of alignment from thos statements.

--

MoI wouldn't know a town reaction to anything if it bit him in the face. Which saddens me becauseit means ill never sheep him in the future.

What Town reaction would I be missing?

Your complete avoidance of Ajax as scum Day 1?
Your failure to do anything as far as actually scum-hunting regarding your ‘top suspects’ all game long?
You terrible “SCUM ONLY WANT TO SHARE THEIR PARTNERS INPUT” screaming fit Day 1?

Yeah if those are Town reactions they are VI Terribad Town reactions. I personally don’t think you are a terribad VI. Sue me if I was wrong on that front.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is my official “I am back and have access” posting. I will be getting caught up in all my games in the next 24 hours and posting content based on importance of the game (for example Team Mafia is a top priority for obvious reasons).

--

I’ve got a bunch to say about this game. Expect some serial posting as I gather my thoughts. I do need to update some of my work in the Team QT now that two other games have ended during my V/LA.

Suffice it to say with a KK Town flip I’ve pretty much wiped the slate clean on reads. I did some Day 1 VCA work before my V/LA and will post that in my next post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Day 1

VC 4 and 5 –

Captain Ajax (4) - MagnaofIllusion, hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail
Quilford (1) - theamatuer
theamatuer (1) - Kublai Khan
Zar (1) - The Fonz
Gaoth (3) - Zar, T-Bone, BBmolla
hitogoroshi (1) - Captain Ajax

Not voting (2) : Gaoth, xRECKONERx

Captain Ajax (4) - MagnaofIllusion, hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail
Quilford (2) - theamatuer, Captain Ajax
theamatuer (2) - Kublai Khan, The Fonz
Gaoth (3) - Zar, T-Bone, BBmolla

Not voting (2) : Gaoth, xRECKONERx

This is an interesting VC transition. Ajax has a singleton on hito. Magua is an available counterwagon. Yes, we know he took the stance that the ‘wagon was too easy’ but he didn’t have to. The other wagons at the time were Quil / Zar / theAm. And he chose to pass by both of Zar and theAm to build the wagon on Quil (Town). Also he chose to avoid Gaoth / Magua with might indicate a partner on that wagon.

Possible indication of Zar / theAm partnership.

VC 6 –

Captain Ajax (4) - MagnaofIllusion, hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail
theamatuer (2) - Kublai Khan, The Fonz
Gaoth (4) - Zar, T-Bone, BBmolla, xRECKONERx
hitogoroshi (1) - Captain Ajax
BBmolla (1) - theamatuer

Not voting (1) : Gaoth

Another interesting transition. Rec adds a vote to Magua’s slot to make it tie with Ajax. Ajax once again passes over theAm (which has 100% Town on it) and Gaoth (Town) to vote hito again. It doesn’t seem like he wants to start a viable counterwagon to himself. Again that doesn’t make sense on TheAm (both players on him Town) or Gaoth (Town) unless one of the Goath voters is scum with him.

VC 8 –

Captain Ajax (4) - hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail, BBMolla
theamatuer (3) - Kublai Khan, The Fonz, Captain Ajax
Gaoth (2) - T-Bone, xRECKONERx
BBmolla (2) - theamatuer, Zar

Not voting (2) : Gaoth, MagnaofIllusion

The one take-away I have from this is that theAm and Zar are both on BBMolla. I had unvoted Ajax to give players time to set their Judging so Ajax was down to 3 votes. BBmolla moved from Town to Ajax. Ajax finally moves to theAm. Zar moves with theAm on BBMolla.

We know the theAm wagon was 1 scum 2 Town at that stage. If scum really wanted to push a Town counterwagon that would be the logical place to move. theAm is pretty much always scummy.

Yet Zar doesn’t make a move to theAm. Need to review Zar’s stance on TheAm Day 1.

VC 10

Captain Ajax (5) - hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail, BBMolla, T-Bone
theamatuer (3) - Kublai Khan, The Fonz, Captain Ajax
Magua (1) - xRECKONERx
BBmolla (2) - theamatuer, Zar
hitogoroshi (1) - Magua

Not voting (1) : MagnaofIllusion

I think this is another telling vote count. T-Bone moves to Ajax knowing that I’m waiting in the wings to make him L-1. Only way that T-Bone is scum with Ajax is if theAm is also scum. Because I believe that Magua had made it know he would prefer theAm to Ajax. No reason for T-Bone scum to chose the dominant wagon unless bussing was a prority when he could also vote theAm-Town and make the wagons 5-5 effectively.

Conclusions I can draw from Day 1, if any:

Early vote counts indicate either Ajax / Zar / theAm is possible. And point to theAm as a strong partner possibility. Also possible that scum is in Zar / T-Bone / BB
Possible scum in Zar / T-Bone / BB / Reck.
Review Zar’s Day 1 in regards to theAm.
T-Bone is only scum if it is Ajax / theAm / T-Bone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The MoIputer says that T-Bone and TheAm should be where I vote today. And I will not be voting T-Bone unless I see a TheAm-scum flip.

Still working in QT ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So looking at flips from all completed games, analyzing probabilities, and lots of mumbo jumbo I also think Zar is most likely scum (based solely on this), Deas and theAm less like, and Reck and BB very unlikely ....

So next step is for me to catch-up today's posting, look at Zar's Day 1 (and general posting) regarding TheAm, and go from there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First things first – no Fake Scummie here.

@BBmolla

– please summarize the Day 1C group’s discussions for me. Also, who did you vote for to receive the ‘Best Replacement’ scummie?

Zar’s Partnership pairing as opposed to scum-hunting on behavior pings my scumdar.

also the reason you changed your methods on the second one is because i pointed out it was fake/phony to put your name in the first time

so you consciously didn't do it the second time

slamdunkscummotivations

@Zar

– why did you change your process?

@TheAm

– you’ve been stringing along this “I have a theory I am holding on to till later” for awhile. You need to actually give it ASAP.

Night 2 I recieved the "Professor Mafia" scummie. Basically it says that I write a bunch of theory but nobody reads it, and implicates me as a sort of superior thinking being. Due to how uptight and better I am, I get offended when someone is nominated for a non existant scummy. So each night I can check someone to determine if they have a fake scummy or not. That night I checked DV, and was told he did not have any fake scummies. Last night I missed deadline by like 3 hours because I've been busy and it slipped my mind. Had it gone through I would have checked Zar.

Last night I got Best Performance in a Losing Cause fake Scummie(It tells me it's fake.) It makes fun of it not being an actual award anymore, and causes me to lose all my scummies I recieved and all future scummies, basically permanantly vanillerizing me.

More on this in my next post …

@BB

regarding Post 823 – Zor confirmed that all games are 3:10 or 3:9 publicly.

--

First things first, if you're town, that means you have to stop insulting me at every opportunity and we actually have to play this game and start working together.

The problem is, I'm still not sure that you're town.

Deas this is the only time I’m going to address this concept. Don’t expect any futher internet ink on the subject -

Saying that I find your reasoning to be unconvincing and possible scum driven is hardly insulting. If you find it so either toughen up or get a new perspective on what compromises “insults”.

His pushing on Ajax is strong and probably town, but Ajax was looking pretty likely to die at that stage anyway, so I wouldn't be surprised by MoI bussing there.

Funny that you stage it this way. Please review the thread and tell me again that my push on Ajax happened “when he was likely to die anyway” with a link to when I started my push.

I didn't vote for Quilford to receive Best Replacement. I remember on page 2 I was planning to because I had a townread on him and thought he would be an unlikely scum kill, but then I thought he was too pro-town, so I voted for T-bone.

So you voted for T-Bone before the Day 1 lynch for Best Replacement?

Also, I forgot to submit my vote between Molla and T-bone, so it must have been a random decision.

So you are specifically claiming Day 2 you ‘forgot’ to submit a vote before Magua lynch between Molla and T-Bone?

BBmolla: I smell a fakeclaim.

This is scummy. Further elaboration …

First, the way he claimed it is not town fakeclaiming it, because of the detail he provides in explaining the role and his saying I should vote him for it.

I think it is unlikely that it would be in the game at all. It feels out of place and seems to just give more power to scum when town weren't very powerful to begin with considering the limitation of the roles given out and scum's ability to interfere with the judging process.

Why would Town fake-claim anything in an open setup (we still have enough people alive to confirm / deny it happened)?

Furthermore giving said Power to scum helps Town. So the whole second paragraph is a mild Appeal to Fear.

All-in-all this very much smells of scum who know BB was Vanillaized and wants to push on him for that. As a reminder Lost Butterfly specified scum may have other, unknown powers.

I’ll be re-reading you in full next ….

-theam asking for an investigation role
-theam asking why we lynched Magua
-theam being obviously unhelpful

Please explain to me the Town motivation for all of these.

Also … do you think TheAm is incapable of making a ‘fake’ Town-tell as scum?

--

When SpyreX drew scum with Lady Lambdadelta and fucking chesskid, we all got our morale docked even further.

Funny … I had the exact same reaction seeing LLD pull scum with Chessderp and Llama pull scum with TSQ and Socio …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Judging QTs

Group 1A – Reck,

Quilford

, T-Bone,

Captain Ajax

,

MoI

: Gave out Best Newbie (N1 only Cop) to Fonz
Group 1B –

Hito

,

Magua

, Zar, Theam,

Fonz

: Gave out DOUBLE VOTE Scummie (can’t find proper name ATM) to Reck
Group 1C –

KK

, BBMolla, DeaVail: Gave out Best Replacement (Bodyguard) to Hito

Group 2A -

MoI

,

Quilford

, T-Bone and Zar.
Group 2B - TheAm,

hito

, BBmolla, and

Magua

: Gave out Best IC (Jailkeeper) to Quilford
Group 2C –

KK

, Reck, Deas : Gave out Professor Mafia (searcher for ‘Fake Scummies, unknown at time of release) to BBMolla

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Zar / TheAm

– please provide me with a Summary of your Day 1 discussion. Did you decide in QT (per Hito’s suggestion Day 1) as to who the Scummie was to go to?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Reck: Well, Magua-town --> Reck-town was because of you voting Gaoth at the time you did. Magua-scum --> Reck-scum was because I have townreads on everyone else, your vote on Gaoth makes a fair bit of sense if you're scum with Magua and other little things make the idea of you being scum together appeal to me. That and I'm a bit more sure of Magua being scum than I was.

So Deas ... you said this yet Magua has now flipped Town and yet you have kept the "Reck is scum" door open. What happened to this stance from Day 2?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Zar

– Thank you for the summary in Post 909

@TheAm

– first please tell me if that summary is accurate.

Then based on this point …

theam said he preferred Reck

Please explain why you posted the following from Post 587

oh right. We have a secret double voter here. I'd like that double voter to vote me just to confirm his/her existence, just so scum can't abuse it lylo/mylo or something

--

Favorite Game(self-redirecter I think)

@BB / Deas

– please explain more fully what this was.

Also please confirm that BB voted to give the Scummie to Quilford and Deas to T-Bone. Also please confirm that no discussion of who to give it to was made in QT ( which I think Deas already said but confirmation can't hurt)

--

I didn't think I'd ever say this, but... THANK GOD MOI IS BACK TO BE A BASTION OF SANITY.

You remember Day 1 when you were all “MoI calling me Town doesn’t sit right with me”? Well right back at you. Yes, bitterness is seeping right here …

--

MoI: I think you're town, don't worry. Also, yes to the questions you asked, and regarding Reck, one thing that I think makes him town (and I'm not even sure about that) is not enough to sustain my townread considering I find him scummy otherwise.

Look, a nice little piece of Dodge with a side of Ignore.

Here are all the questions / statements you not-so-deftly avoided from my post. Answer them in your next one …

Please review the thread and tell me again that my push on Ajax happened “when he was likely to die anyway” with a link to when I started my push.

So you voted for T-Bone before the Day 1 lynch for Best Replacement?

So you are specifically claiming Day 2 you ‘forgot’ to submit a vote before Magua lynch between Molla and T-Bone?

-theam asking for an investigation role
-theam asking why we lynched Magua
-theam being obviously unhelpful

Please explain to me the Town motivation for all of these.

Also … do you think TheAm is incapable of making a ‘fake’ Town-tell as scum?

--

After doing the Vote Analysis, I noticed and mentioned in my Team QT that all the D2 wagons were innocents.

But that’s not an answer to my question. Why did you shift your process from ‘Including yourself in the questionable pile” to “Not including self”.

Reck makes a very good point that you behavior does very much look like someone who is taking actions that they want to be deemed as Town not actual Town actions. You will NEVER catch Town me putting myself in a PoE position where I am analyzing myself as scum. Regardless of whether anyone thinks it is scummy or not. Town you knows you are Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@BB

– since Deas is acting like a pouty 12 year old I’ll remind you to please explain in more detail what the “Self-Redirector” Scummie option was. Thanks!

--

Gonna blatantly prod dodge here. If someone needs me to address something point it out to me and I will at some point tomorrow.

List your top 3 scum suspects and why in some detail. I don’t need MoI style walls but I do want some reasoning.

We have effectively 2 lynches to hit scum. You cannot coast along anymore.

--

It seems to me, however, that the only reason you were so pushy about this, after I had repeatedly called you town, is so that I could prostrate myself before your great town-ness.

Nope.jpg.

Your play smells of scum who are carefully moving their “suspects” Day to Day based on opportunism and public perception.

Your start of the Day “I want to see what others think of MoI” reads exactly as a fishing expedition to see if the “Hmmm, I might be able to sell a MoI push if other people are receptive” play would pass.

I’ll explain more in my Summary of Why I Would Lynch Deas that is coming (along with my Summary on everyone else alive).

ugh, sorry, I shouldn't have done that.

VOTE: Deas

You can have my vote for the moment simply for this “Oops, being antagonistic might get me negative attention” post which my gut says comes from scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Deas

– I’d like you explanation of the following –

Regarding your Reck read

– You’ve kept him on your ‘suspicion radar’ the entire game. Yet I don’t see a single vote for Reck from you. You’ve managed to drop votes on Zar and BBMolla in the past 2 days. Why is Reck always floating around in your ‘secondary suspects’ pool (you linked him to Magua Day 2 and are linking him to BBMolla today) but never someone you are actually demonstrating a push for?

Regarding your Day 2 Scummies no-vote

– You are really going to have to explain how you managed to ‘not vote’ and allow random.org to make the choice given what we saw with scum Manipulating the Best Newbie Day 1 from a Town perspective.

I don’t like that per the QT you were specifically given the deciding vote by KK and Reck and ‘forgot’.

You avoid directly commenting on Fonz’s death and the ‘Best Newbie’ scum manipulation other than your ‘hmmm, that kill only makes sense coming from me” start of Day fluff and your “Fonz dead points to TheAm scum” at Post 479. It was clear as Day that leaving votes split allowed scum to more easily Manipulate the results of Scummie distribution. Yet you said not one thing about it.

Also I made it increadibly clear in Post 513 that Group 2A was not complete. KK had previous to this said that Group 2C was complete (as evidenced in Post 514.

You made Post 522 V/Laing afterwards. No reason for you to NOT have made you PM to Lost Butterfly at that time.

And your first post of content Day 3 basically you were rethinking your BBMolla read. I’d like to highlight that portion of your post …

BBmolla- This is one of my reads that I find myself having to reconsider. I originally had a bit of a scumread on him because he didn't really seem to know what to do in our Day 1 judging group and posted there well after his first post in the thread.

He doesn't seem to show much thought regarding Ajax, and seems to jump straight to supporting his lynch. Until the claim of cop, I never felt at all sure about Ajax (although maybe that's just a me thing).

First this clearly doesn’t reflect what you posted in thread Day 1. You never call him scum and at Post 195 call him a Town read (with reservations).

I also find the bolded interesting because that bit fits your play regarding Ajax to a tee. You followed Quilford onto Ajax, never questioned him, and parked your vote the entire time. That doesn’t track with someone ‘unsure’ of Ajax’s alignment pre-claim.

This says you had suspicions about BB well before Day 3. Yet you didn’t bother to vote for the player you claim you did Day 1 (T-Bone) to assure that the ‘SEKRIT POWERS’ of Professor Mafia didn’t get into a Town read’s hands.

I think you are lying.

[MagnaofIllusion]

TheAm

– you have questions / discussion in the following posts you need to answer or risk my vote.

Post 902
Post 921

[MagnaofIllusion]

921- Zars accurate, but like I said. It wasn't just a deathmiller, it was a 1-shot vig that caused you to flip as SK if you died before you used it.

Why did you specifically out the existence of a DoubleVoter Day 3?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pedit- I wanted the identity of the double voter to be secret. I just wanted to prove the existence of one.

Why?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Regarding your Reck read – You’ve kept him on your ‘suspicion radar’ the entire game. Yet I don’t see a single vote for Reck from you. You’ve managed to drop votes on Zar and BBMolla in the past 2 days. Why is Reck always floating around in your ‘secondary suspects’ pool (you linked him to Magua Day 2 and are linking him to BBMolla today) but never someone you are actually demonstrating a push for?

Questioning why Deas has never voted Reck.

Seriously MoI?

Here’s his ‘no answer’ post.

Vote: Reck

And here he looks briefly at Zar’s ISO and then does what I just knocked him for not doing despite his read … voting Reck.

Does anyone else see this and not thing scumtastic?

--

So, um, I think I made it clear that I forgot to vote for someone to receive a scummy. I was planning to vote T-Bone but I wasn't decided and I don't know why I didn't. I just completely forgot about it.

Yeah. So you were specifically made the deal-breaking vote between BBMolla and T-Bone in the QT. And started Day 3 saying you had some issues with BBMolla back to Day 1. And you ‘just forgot’ to vote to give the Scummie to T-Bone who you’ve been calling Town as opposed to BBMolla who you had issues with. The Scummie with ‘HIDDEN MYSTERY POWERS’. After the problems that happened Day 1 with Fonz getting Best Newbie …

Deas if you are Town this is exactly why I should have such a low opinion of your play. Because that is fucking abysmal on the level of Furc / DrShotty.

--

@MoI: Do you think it's more likely for DV to be scum than Zar? If so, who do you think is most likely to be buddies with DV?

I’ll be frank. No clue. I wasn’t lying when I said I was back to square one. I still am having a hard time grasping how both Magua and KK (who are not scrubs by any stretch) could both be so terribly wrong about Ajax. Unless TheAm is scum I just can’t get it.

I’m digging through things today. Maybe I’ll have something more to go on later.

--

...Uh we didn't discuss in 1C, but I voted to give out the scummy in 1C to hito.

I voted to give out the scummy to Quilford in 2B.

This is why I asked … I’m probably going to need to put together a Google Doc Excel spreadsheet on this to keep claims straight.

--

MoI, lets talk some VCA.... first, we have some other voting methods and quite a bit of information on those votes, would a VCA on judging groups be appropriate?

If you are asking if a VCA of votes in the Judging Groups based on claims would be helpful … absolutely none. The backbone of why VCA work can be useful stems form the fact that it is Mod Confirmed Correct information. Obviously scum are going to lie if they need to about their Judging Group votes so it is a useless exercise.

First I don't understand why that vote count shows a Zar/Theam relationship. It could show a Ajax/Theam relationship as has been implied, or perhaps an Ajax-Zar/Bone/BB relationship. Also your conclusion amounts to "there must be scum in the other players left alive' (okay you do omit Deas here) but still

I assume you are talking about VC 4/5 form Post 899. I’ll give some more of my thoughts ..

Again Ajax started as a Singleton vote on Hito. At that time the other possible counter-wagons to him were Gaoth (3), Zar (1), TheAm(1) and Quilford (1).

Now Quilford was stupid-obv Town. So the question is – why did Ajax pass over Gaoth, Zar, and TheAm and choose Quilford to push?

We know Gaoth was Town. And at VC5 the players on that wagon are the same as VC4. First thing that comes to mind is that a partner was already on the wagon but he might have also been fishing for Town-cred in not directly pushing the most obvious option.

Again … this is looking strictly at vote counts. So in responding to you I’ve gone back to look at TheFonz moved his vote in relation to Ajax’s move to Quilford.

In looking at it Ajax moves to Quilford at Post 103 and Fonz moves his vote to TheAm at Post 108.

So my original premise still stands … Ajax specifically chose to move to Quilford with 1 vote over either TheAm or Zar with one vote.

This, combined with Zar’s presence on the Goath wagon, is what is giving me the Zar / TheAm possible partners thoughts.

Is it rock solid? Nope. But it is worth considering.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So here’s my issue with TheAm

–

His ISO is pretty scummy, as is the norm. Things that at this stage stand out to me …

Post 9 – Now that KK is dead-Town his “Obv-Buddying to Reck” point can be reconsidered as valid scum-hunting.

Post 151 – To further strengthen KK’s stance … look at his reasoning for voting Quilford here –

I think a scum's buddying a town for towncred from the town and a possible mislynch if the scum flips.

Aside from the fact that Quil is Town … here he’s attacking Quilford for buddying when he did that in his very first post. Cognitive Dissonance.

Post 216 – This “Wagon me is Meh” stance struck me as odd at the time. Ajax, who was Scummy McScumpants had just jumped on at Post 194. Yet TheAm’s reaction is subdued. No “Scum looking for a mislynch” or anything. Just that the wagon is Meh. Possibly not wanting to point fingers since a partner just made the wagon viable?

Post 310 – He’s the first post after Ajax claims and asking questions to see if he can extricate the wagon.

Post 431 – One of many posts (in this case “Trying to work out if scum have daytalk” where is looks to purposefully trying to showcase lack of inside knowledge. While making mistakes about set-up isn’t inherently scummy the number of times he does it is so blatant my gut is saying “Faux Townie Posting” aka Captain Ajax. Post 467, Post 643 are other posts of those ilk.

Post 470 – I’ll comment on this later …

Post 544 – I want this addressed …

I have an idea, but I'd need to check to be certain.

What was your idea?

Post 576 – Already addressed who much I hate this post.

He also has no Ajax interactions at all and as I have gone over before the vote movement and MoIputer both say he is a good lynch.

My big hang-up is that I know TheAm is a VI. It’s one of the reasons I assumed he was getting counter-wagonned to Captain Ajax. But at this point we have two lynches to get another scum (barring Lulz, double Kill from Scum mechanics). I’d honestly rather get him out of the way now even if he flips Town. I also do think interaction wise him flipping either Town or Scum advances the game for tomorrow more than others.

UNVOTE: Deas
VOTE: TheAm

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also on TheAm - let me add that he was on Fonz's suspects lists which makes a "Kill Fonz" N1 a double bonus for scum along with Snuffing out the Best Newbie ...

Will not be voting T-Bone ever for several reasons. I had a discussion with GreyICE in Team QT Day 3 about why I thought he was Town (as Grey wanted him dead) and the reasons I used still hold even with a KK-Town flip.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Right then. Note deas does not give a defense at all, yet moi unvotes him anyways.
Anyways, I am absolutely certain that the scumteam is deas/ Moi. There was a scumslip in deas's post, where MoI immediately appended to bus him to avoid it. Deas then goes WTF and tries convincing MoI otherwise.
I doubt I'll survive to post my full case on Moi. Basically their plan is to have deasviel quickhammer me, bus deas To death tomorrow, then use his pro-town leaderness to mislynch the final person (zar?) easily and win.

Lulz. I'll just point out that you aren't voting either of us ... why is that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: theam

dafuq

BB loves me more than you Reck

In all seriousness - what do you think about TheAm. If you don't think he's Zar's partner who do you think is?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI will come around if I badger him enough, you're down, I'm down.

Maybe. Give me the weekend to re-read Zar and look over a few other things.

Also I'm asking you to make a pact

- if we do lynch Zar and he's scum please kill TheAm before T-Bone. I have every reason to think he is Town. We've essentially got 3 lynches for 2 scum at this point.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@T-Bone

- Why don't you put a vote on TheAm. I'd like to see where things go from there ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Deas

– I see your case. I’ll do a better re-read later. That said – who is Reck’s partner if he is scum?

--

Which leaves me with TheAm, Zar, and T-Bone. I'm pretty sure Zar is scum, which means one of the other two is the buddy, here. I'm just way more sure on Zar than I am willing to turn around and do this whole coin flip business, because even the 50/50 chance relies on me being right about Zar and right about all of my town reads.

Well we are at an impasse here then. I feel that the scum-teams of TheAm/Zar or TheAm/Deas can work and would rather take out TheAm today for the same reasons.

T-Bone isn’t scum.

--

You lynched KK because he didn't have enough basis behind voting me, and now your giving out his points as your points. Theres really something wrong here.

I lynched KK based on his ignoring of Ajax and his push on you. I know you are a VI so I consider a strong push on you from a strong player a possible scum-tell. Yet we’ve now seen that you were not a scum-driven counter-wagon to Ajax (KK and Magua were strong pushers).

Do you consider it scummy to re-evaluate reads based on new information? Especially since KK was indeed Town.

@310: I already told you my reasons behind asking Ajax.

Yes. That really doesn’t mean I can’t think you are scum lying to me about your motivations regarding Confirmed Scum.

470: The idea was you scum. I hinted at this multiple times in thread and the judging QTs in fact.

So the only reason you publicly state this is that I vote for you? Ok, noted.

@fonz. I'd also like to note that Fonz was the ONLY person that remotely suspected you. And guess what. He died.

He also suspected both you and Deas. But his mild suspicion (which pretty much evaporated when he was Ajax was scum as demonstrated in Post 345 of me is the reason he died? Lulz.

MoI gonna say yes, b/c zars town and hes scum

So you will not be voting Zar today regardless of the wagon on you, right …

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m going to do my Zar re-read next but wanted to respond to things from the weekend first.

@Reck

– LLD wants me to lynch you as she thinks you are scum. I just want you to address one thing that has been bugging me.

Post 122 really is still bothering me. You were in the same position as me Day 1 – we both knew that the other had two scum partners via them being teammates in other games (Socio / Llama and Spryex / LLD). The first and foremost reason I had an immediate Town-read on you is that I know the odds of a single Team Mafia group drawing three scum roles is significantly less than drawing 2 (and much more significantly less than drawing 1). Yet you didn’t appear to put any of that level of thinking into your day 1 post. Why exactly did you not consider the reason for my solid Town read without referring to posts in relation to that fact?

--

I don't know.

If you can’t put together a logical group of partners to Reck at this stage with as much wagon and flip information as we have I’m not surprised no-one is taking your case seriously.

Maybe you want to spend some time working on that.

--

MoI: Thoughts on Molla?

Very likely Town. First because his play reads like BB-Town to me. Secondly because he already has two scum Teammates. The odds of tripling up much less likely than the odds of not. Especially given the number of double-ups we have so far.

That second part goes towards Reck also FTR.

--

MoI, what makes you feel this way? I know I've based my town read on T-Bone exclusively on the position of his vote on the Ajax wagon, but I'm starting to see hito's POV about it.

This is a post, pre-re-read, that makes me want to vote for you. Why are you focused on my T-Bone Town read? I have already said I revisted my reasoning in my QT and found it valid. I’m not going to waste the time elaborating at this juncture.

The fact that you are doing little to actively scum-hunt really bothers me. Your last 5 or so post are all defensive and weak. And you aren’t voting 5 days from deadline.

What is your read on TheAm?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't understand why this is so important.

Not sure what I can do to help you with this. We are on Day 4. There are tons of Dayplay relational data, VCA work that can be analyzed, full information on the make-up of the Judging Groups, and Nightplay results on which to analyze / rule-out / suggest scum pairings.

For example I think TheAm should be the lynch today. I can easily see groups with TheAm / Zar and TheAm / yourself based on dayplay and Judging Groups.

Currently you aren’t really motivating anyone to join your case with the information provided. You need to make more of an effort if you expect people to trust your scum-hunting over their own.

--

I don't get the reasons as to why an innocent would miss the chance to ensure a scummie does not go into the hands of a player they don't trust.

This is one of the reasons for suspecting T-Bone? Because that line of thinking in my mind applies much more to Deas (who was specifically given charge of the Day2 decision for 2C) over T-Bone (there was no discussion in QT in Day 1 group 1A about who to give to, also this group was 5 instead of 3).

Also, if there's a chance that scum do not have daytalk in this game, then somebody other than Ajax within 1A that must have wanted Fonz' role gone.

Let me stop you right there. Before I go into any further discussion about this – are you seriously suggesting there is any chance scum DON’T have Daytalk. Scum have an ability to meddle in some fashion with the Judging Groups. How do you expect that to even operate in a manner that is reasonable if the Scum team can’t communicate during the day given that all voting decisions for Judging QTs are made and processed

BEFORE

the lynch occurs?

Of the remaining players, based on play alone, I have trouble seeing you as scum. From that group, that leaves me with Reck + T-Bone. I doubt the scum were all allocated on one judging group within D1. That would have made them all potential recipients of at least 1 of the scummies + the complete control of another judging category.

Nothing about has anything to do with why T-Bone should be suspected. You says you doubt scum are all in the same group. I agree. Ajax was already in Group 1A. You aren’t giving me any reason why you don’t think there were scum in Groups 2A or 3A. This is a terrible line of logic on which to suspect T-Bone.

Also, for yet unexplained reasons, everybody and their cat has expressed suspicion about me at some point or another in this game, except for T-Bone.

Wait, whut? You are Hypo-Town. Everyone but T-Bone has suspected you. And that means you suspect him?

Before abandoning me to solitude, all of my team-mates and myself agreed on the feeling that it's very unlikely that theam is scum.

And yet here is the situation we have –

TheAm and yourself are the two leading wagons (mind you the phrase leading wagon isn’t very strong given that those wagons are 2 as opposed to 1). You don’t think he is scum but aren’t pressuring or voting anyone else as a viable wagon.

Do you see the disconnect I am having with your play?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So here's the deal.

I don't really see myself as moving my vote from TheAm.

He makes sense from a MoIputer standpoint.
His relational tells (or lack thereof) with Ajax make sense for a partnership between the two.
His general Day-play makes sense as scum.
My theories about Judging Groups align with him as a viable scum candidate.

Lastly, if I'm wrong (I don't think I am but I was wrong about KK so it's clear I'm not infallible) about TheAm I'd rather find out today as opposed to LYLO.

Zar and Deas look like the most likely partners. It is pretty telling that there has been no turbo-push on either of Zar or TheAm this game-day. Both have been sitting pretty much as the wagon leaders since the votes went on. I don't think scum would be content to let Town sit ripe for the picking like this as deadline comes to a close thus I don't think it possible for them both to be Town.

Honestly we have 3 lynches left. I think TheAm followed by both Zar / Deas nets Town a win at this juncture.

Vote TheAm. Thank you!

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: Eh, the last time I heard from my QT members they all expressed disagreement about me voting theam. We think he's bad town. I know I am town, so no, I don't think there was scum along the members of group 1B.

Well as deadline approaches it looks like it is going to either be TheAm or you ...

If you are so confident in TheAm being Town you are willing to get lynched instead of him I'm not sure what exactly that says ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prodding BBmolla and theamatuer.

It's hard for TheAm to drop scum posts when he is lurking out the pressure on him

[MagnaofIllusion]

Uh, you can't honestly tell me he'd screw up his fake claim that bad with daytalk. I don't think scum have daytalk.

DERP. Seriously BB ... did you read what I wrote. Here's I'll channel Fate to get it through your head ...

BB YOU MORON. SCUM HAVE TO HAVE DAYTALK FOR THE SET-UP TO MAKE ANY SENSE. HARD TO FUCKING MANIPULATE THE RESULTS OF JUDGING GROUPS WHICH ONLY HAPPEN DURING DAYTIME WHEN SCUM CAN'T DAYTALK.

STOP BEING DERP.

Now then - Zar is not a proper answer to "Who is Zar's partner?"

[MagnaofIllusion]

BB - vote TheAm. You think he is scum. It will put him at L-1. He can make any claim he needs and then die.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And k, I don't see the daytalk thing worth arguing about so whatever.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: theam

Yeah, well I need something to do while we wait for scum-TheAm to be lynched ...

Still not lynching Reck.

What do you think of T-Bone?

T-Bone is Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's BS. The only game where most people thought you were scum and you happened to be town was the Wittlich game, and it was mostly because of the interactions the flipped killer had with you. The only other game where this happened was the R'hllor game, and you were scum in that one. The rest of the games people have had a meh opinion on you.

Why are you wasting time arguing about meta from a site that I'm guessing both you and BBMolla are the only players who play there?

Are you trying to say BB is scum? Why aren't you voting him if so? If not you are active lurking and not actually hunting scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So at this stage TheAm has been on MS and made posts since he was prodded but avoided coming to the thread.

At this stage I'm going to take that as a scum claim.

If TheAm flips scum as expected - lynch through Zar and Deas with the two remaining lynches we have and win the game. Remember that when I'm gone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Actually you are correct. I mis-read the timestamp on the Mod Prod announcement post. So you are right. You are just scum prod-dodging in general.

=========[]
[]=========

The time has come for a second scum flip ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, I'll flip town, you'll go "oh my, I need to reread things again, I'll just go afk for a while, then come back and use the deadline to quicklynch zar and win the game"

=========[]
[]=========

Scum is begging for it!

[MagnaofIllusion]

" I'm going to flail about in a desperate AtE attempt to forstall my lynch hoping that my scummy play and complete lack of pushing my partner Ajax will be overlooked. I'll also throw in some OMGUS since I can't actually scum-hunt in a single-scum set-up"

[MagnaofIllusion]

where was 1043 AtE?

Saying “I’m gonna flip Town” is the absolute standard of AtE.

I know you're here. Stop lurking because you cant think of an answer, and decide to wait until DV comes and quickhammers

Well let’s chalk this up to yet another thing you don’t know since I was up in bed by the time you posted this crap. I appreciate you have the gall to lurk for three days and then accuse me of dodging a response after you showed up finally. Quite cheeky which is the current fad in being scum here on MS.

The fact that you aren’t even aware of the fact that Deas could ALREADY have hammered you at Post 1031 kinda blows up your theory, doesn’t it?

--

So everyone not on TheAm’s wagon have now made a post now that Reck weighed.

So the only ways TheAm is still sitting at L-1 and not hammered as Town is if scum don’t feel threatened in the least by suspicion in the least and are happy to just let deadline do it’s magic or all the scum are in [MoI / T-Bone / BBMolla].

Someone hammer already …

[]===========
===========[]

[MagnaofIllusion]

And 12 hours later nothing ...

I think we've got about 2 days left. TheAm never did make his big "IMMA GONNA PROVE MOI SCUM VIA EACH DAY" case did he. Hard to put in effort when you know it will be completely ignored when you flip scum ....

I'm going to stop looking at the thread until someone other than myself provides content ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So you self-hammered and that is a sign you are Town? Lulz.

Now we just need Lost Butterfly to make that scum flip.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, the subsequent town flip is sign I am town.
Also forcing an NL is bad and I dont trust scum not to do so

So you think DV is scum who said "I'll hammer soon", keep saying you are Town, and think Deas-scum would choose to not hammer Town?

Lulz