TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Singersinger

White Flag's a vast departure from the theme you played last year. So why white flag this time?

[Zachrulez]

vote: CES

1. Bandwagon inflation
2. Not doing anything to try and get of RVS

Discuss.

Why CES specifically and not anyone else who posted before him? (More about number 2, but can apply to 1 as well.)

[Zachrulez]

CES' first post comes off as null to me.

Bub's post and response strike me as townish.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

[Zachrulez]

CES' first post comes off as null to me.

Bub's post and response strike me as townish.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

Null, vote was cast too early in the game for me to consider it noteworthy.

[Zachrulez]

There's a reason why I chose Llamarble at the beginning. Scum would likely hop onto a bandwagon being pushed against someone formerly scum in a game like this in an attempt to fit in, assuming Llamarble is town (or possibly even if he's not).

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

It depends on the context. If you want me to be honest, I didn't even notice Haddock until you asked me about him.

[Zachrulez]

unvote vote zachrules

Llmarable is my best town read thus far.

Zach how did you know that about Singer?

I played team mafia last year. I was in that theme game.

[Zachrulez]

So why'd you choose differently? (You can wait for Singer to answer first if you like)

Well, I'll point out the fact that she was scum in that game and I was town, so your argument with respect to me doesn't have the same tune as the one I'm making with her, because what I'm noting is that she chose a different type of game having been scum the previous year.

To answer your question though, the reason I took the role I did last year was because on a 4 town slate on our team, that game was the only one that had a power role, and the team considered me to be the least likely player to get nightkilled. That strategy failed because I was killed on night one, but anyway... I almost was slated for white flag. So I'm basically in the game that I would have ended up being in last year all things being equal.

[Zachrulez]

She didn't hate it enough to avoid playing it in Dram's game last year.

Do you think I'd willingly take a scum role pm? (I'd classify my own meta the same way. Perhaps to even more of an extreme.)

[Zachrulez]

There's a reason why I chose Llamarble at the beginning. Scum would likely hop onto a bandwagon being pushed against someone formerly scum in a game like this in an attempt to fit in, assuming Llamarble is town (or possibly even if he's not).

Scumpoints for 'I cooked up this purposeful vote in my lab pregame.'

How is that scummy?

[Zachrulez]

Singer if I had any expectation of what your answer was going to be, it wouldn't have been worth asking.

[Zachrulez]

Forgot singer replaced into this last year.

Well then...

Unvote: Vote: Benmage

Singer can graduate to null territory for now.

Hi Amrun!

[Zachrulez]

By this I mean white flag of course.

[Zachrulez]

Also, hi, Zach!

I was hoping to see Sotty here to make it up to her, but you're a good second best. (Sowwy.)

Hey now, I had to sit and watch that madness.

[Zachrulez]

Catching up.

Zach, why do you prefer town over scum?

Sparing the long detailed explanation, the gist of it is that I'm terrible at scum.

[Zachrulez]

Has Shea posted yet?

Nope?

confirm vote: Thestatusquo

Sure he has, if you're counting posts that aren't being made in this game.

Unvote: Vote: Thestatusquo

[Zachrulez]

Also Llamarble brought up GreyICE in the same sentence as scumread for me, so I'm ignoring that now.

[Zachrulez]

Also not feeling Johhoq-scum, just Johhoq-useless.

Not voting TSQ just for not posting.

I don't like when people have an on site presence and ignore this game. I like the fact that he's posted in the team mafia thread while continuing to not post here even less.

Benmage is also causing me to twitch and I'd be happy voting him at this point as well.

[Zachrulez]

Well I'm going off memory since the particular thread was apparently erased by the crash, but I believe he started or contributed to a thread where he wanted people punished for talking about ongoing games for pointing out the fact that paticular players were posting in other games while avoiding a paticular one. This suggests his own playstyle as scum follows that philosophy.

This MD post from him suggests that he would consider lurking like this as scum to be a viable strategy if the town was resistant to lynching lurkers. (You're already providing some.)

Also the structure of team mafia allows a player to be inactive for something like a week before they are forcibly replaced, and in a game with 2 week deadlines, that is going to be very hard to actively police with anything other than pressure.

Also what aids my thought process is that I'm not really getting any hugely strong scumreads off of anyone other than maybe Benmage. Given those kind of reads, it's not a huge stretch for me to believe that TSQ might be lurking out the day hoping that a wagon like Haddock goes through instead.

[Zachrulez]

For the record I love me some lurking as scum, and I'm not stupid either.

Also, it's never too early to burn the heathens.

[Zachrulez]

And yes, I'm weary of Socio's low activity as well. There was a game way back where I was on a scumteam with him where he maintained a very low activity level. This game was a while back mind you, but I remember him being more active/proactive in last year's white flag as well.

[Zachrulez]

kuribo pointed out that lynching any lurker D1 is stupid because being on a town lynch D1 docks us points. Lynching a lurker is just a crapshoot.

I had a brief paranoid thought that you didn't care about this because you're scum, but I forgot about it myself so I dismissed it.

Paranoia is a sign of the townie, so that's bodes well for my read of you at least.

I haven't really given much thought to the complexities of the scoring system beyond just doing what I can to win the game.

[Zachrulez]

Also Socio, didn't you pretty much singlehandedly catch the scumteam last year?

Not sure how you can "make the same mistake" in regards to that.

[Zachrulez]

Hey, I listened. But no one listened to ME.

Yeah, the town just ate itself.

Let's not let that happen this time.

[Zachrulez]

I really can't read Amrun, so I'm asking my QT for help. I relay that info back, but either way I think Haddock and Amrun are not scum together. Amrun started the whole wagon on Haddock. I don't see scum doing that on a buddy.

They're both town. If there's scum on the wagon it would be Matias. Given the point Haddock brought up, I wouldn't expect scum to touch that wagon with a 10 foot pole. (Aside from Matias who would have a defensive motivation to do so.)

[Zachrulez]

What does DDD think of Amrun, Zach?

Most of our back and forth in the QT so far has been agreement with my line of inquiry on Singer and support for my current scumreads. I made a note of the question in the QT and I'll let you know when he answers.

[Zachrulez]

What does DDD think of Amrun, Zach?

Most of our back and forth in the QT so far has been agreement with my line of inquiry on Singer and support for my current scumreads. I made a note of the question in the QT and I'll let you know when he answers.

He just got back to me and he's seeing her play as artificial and disagrees with my read.

This came with a few caveats as he pointed out he read her wrong in the one game he could recall playing with her and that the artificial feeling he's getting from her appearing to try hard could be her actually trying harder because of last year's game.

That's the gist of it anyway.

[Zachrulez]

He says in response to 254 that he had to actually check that you were actually in C9++ because he only remembers the streamrolling in that game, and in regards to Winvitational that he's been trying to repress all memory of that game. The game in question he says he read you incorrectly was Cold War Mafia, which you actually didn't mention, which was the one time the Amished tell didn't work for him.

And he clarified the trying hard point, which I was actually confused about. He said the point isn't that you don't try hard in other games, but that in general he finds pro-town play to be natural and effortless, and that in this particular game it feels to him as though you're working at what you're doing.

[Zachrulez]

Walls happen.

Meanwhile Benmage continues to set off alarm bells in my head and TSQ continues to provide nothing of value.

[Zachrulez]

I have something else I want to say about it that makes me possibly doubt my own conclusion, but my team and I are checking if I'm allowed to say it.

I want to hear this if you're able.

Also let me know what you think of Benmage, he's not being mentioned much, but he's bothering me a lot.

[Zachrulez]

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

[Zachrulez]

Second part of 335 is open to everyone to respond to btw.

[Zachrulez]

Can you be more specific than that?

I'd prefer not to be...

Do you have any experience with Benmage scum?

[Zachrulez]

Wait, are people voting TSQ? That's stupid considering all the scum in this game that are actually posting.

Are you saying you're expecting scum to be among the most active players? If so, why is that?

[Zachrulez]

Can you be more specific than that?

I'd prefer not to be...

Do you have any experience with Benmage scum?

It's is a meta read, and it's one I don't want to destroy if it's possible.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP *It is, not it's is.

[Zachrulez]

It's time for TSQ to burn.

How much more lurking do you need?

[Zachrulez]

I might have something to say about 354 once a certain ongoing game ends.

[Zachrulez]

More to the point there's even less of an excuse given that he should have team-mates who could have read the game and picked up the slack to at least some degree by now.

... seriously.

[Zachrulez]

I don't think you realize the fact that TSQ has pretty much been replacement dodging and not posting anything of value is a significant problem. You can call the lynch stupid all you want, but it actually does have more than a reasonable chance of hitting scum, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let him get deep into the game playing like this.

[Zachrulez]

I've also downgraded my town-read on zach because of him parking his vote on TSQ forever and not bothering to comment on much else.

You can do whatever the fuck you want, it's not going to influence me to play the way you want me to.

[Zachrulez]

I don't think you realize the fact that TSQ has pretty much been replacement dodging and not posting anything of value is a significant problem. You can call the lynch stupid all you want, but it actually does have more than a reasonable chance of hitting scum, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let him get deep into the game playing like this.

There are 13 players in this game, of which three are scum. The chance of TSQ being scum is completely random, since we have 0 reads on him at all. Do you consider a 23% chance to be reasonable?

You could make that argument for anyone in the game. You're also erroneously assigning his lack of action and his type of lack of action no value to his odds of flipping scum.

[Zachrulez]

Also if you want a comment on something else I have a town read on Haddock and feel similarly about the idea of his lynch as you apparently do for a lynch of TSQ.

Out of pretty much everything regarding the bandwagon, Haddock's own comments about Matias resonate the most with me so pretty much between everyone on the Haddock wagon and Haddock himself, I'd be most willing to lynch Matias out of any of them, and that's really not saying much as I wouldn't even say I have a scumread on Matias more than I would acknowledge that I think Haddock made the best points out of everyone there, you know those points you've kinda flung aside as him being too interested in stuff related to him and completely ignoring the value of the comments as genuine scum hunting.

That's the kind of stuff day 1 mislynches are made of.

[Zachrulez]

Bub - Zach has certainly been commenting on other things. Why would you say he hadn't.

Zach - I'm interested in what you mean by Haddock's scumhunting being genuine. Do you think he is RIGHT or do you think he is GENUINE?

More of the latter.

[Zachrulez]

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

The point about him fueling suspicion about Haddock without committing to it. I see it as a valid point.

I still have a town read on Matias for overall play, but I can see Haddock's position coming from a pro-town POV.

[Zachrulez]

Dodging the prod I'm probably going to receive tonight.

I'll get back to this tomorrow.

[Zachrulez]

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

The point about him fueling suspicion about Haddock without committing to it. I see it as a valid point.

I still have a town read on Matias for overall play, but I can see Haddock's position coming from a pro-town POV.

How is that a valid point? How do you see what he said as being accurate?

Fanning suspicion without it being noticed actually has some scum motivation. It's weighed against the probability that Matias' attempt to analyze me was genuine. (For this specific instance I find the latter the more likely possibility.)

[Zachrulez]

Last two pages... urgh.

TSQ has posted on site approx 40 times since this game opened, just so everyone is aware... and Amrun's the leading wagon?

[Zachrulez]

So what, you think my argument against a Haddock lynch consists of it being no better than random? I'm pretty sure I didn't make that argument.

Pretty sure I said I feel similarly about a Haddock lynch. (Which means similarly about the dislike for a lynch, NOT the reasons for the feeling.)

[Zachrulez]

Well, I interpreted that the wrong way then. Sorry, English isn't my first language.

I think I can see how you got that interpretation.

I feel pretty strongly about wanting TSQ/Benmage back to back actually. I think that slate has a good chance of ending the game outright.

[Zachrulez]

CES vote from TSQ is unimpressive.

I can sum up the rest of his activity as basically challenging Regfan's scumreads, and then calling Amrun obvtown.

Hardly anything that screams at me to unvote. If nothing else, I want the pressure on him to remain so he doesn't just go and disappear for another week.

[Zachrulez]

Got busy unexpectedly last night. Catching up.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wow, I just noticed that all of CES' top scumreads are on him now. That is fascinating.

[Zachrulez]

Bolding my responses.

I have something else I want to say about it that makes me possibly doubt my own conclusion, but my team and I are checking if I'm allowed to say it.

I want to hear this if you're able.

Also let me know what you think of Benmage, he's not being mentioned much, but he's bothering me a lot.

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

I played with Benmage in Weather Mafia II (I *think* that's the only experience I've had with him) and he seemed to be just as loud and obnoxious as he is/has been here. Can you be more specific as to what feel "wrong"?

Since you brought this up now, I'd strongly disagree with that assertion.

[Zachrulez]

1. CES' reads have been static for half the game so far. Maybe a top scumread stays the same for a long time, but all 3 top reads don't stay the same when you're looking for scum. Especially when you have a whole team's worth of people with new ideas.

New York 146 just came to an end, which was a game I was moderating so I wanted to comment on it.

Basically CES entered the game and threw down a vote for Tammy. Contribution was minimal because he was catching up on the game. The real core of his play came in lylo (the next day) where he presented static scumreads on Fitz and MOI. Those reads basically never changed. I'm just verifying that I have seen this type of play from town CES.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wow, I just noticed that all of CES' top scumreads are on him now.

That is fascinating

.

Anything of it?

I'm implying that the attacks on him look like they're scum motivated.

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

More to this than?

(imo, I just haven't awaken the dragon yet)

If that's what you're calling it, there's only one condition I know of that is the reason it ever sleeps...

[Zachrulez]

I'll have some more time tomorrow, but I'll just relay recent teammate stuff today.

1. CES' reads have been static for half the game so far. Maybe a top scumread stays the same for a long time, but all 3 top reads don't stay the same when you're looking for scum. Especially when you have a whole team's worth of people with new ideas.

New York 146 just came to an end, which was a game I was moderating so I wanted to comment on it.

Basically CES entered the game and threw down a vote for Tammy. Contribution was minimal because he was catching up on the game. The real core of his play came in lylo (the next day) where he presented static scumreads on Fitz and MOI. Those reads basically never changed. I'm just verifying that I have seen this type of play from town CES.

MoI says that this is an apples-to-rocks comparison because in the game you mentioned he replaced in, then picked 2 out of 4 people as scum in lylo and stuck to it. Whereas here it's D1 and there are 3 scum in 13 players and the total amount of information available has been increasing between him restating his reads.

Well sure the gamestate is different, but I'm not arguing that it's a town tell, just null. If you want to convince me that it's a scumtell, you need to show me that his reads are only static in this game for strategic reasons. (Which means showing me evidence that his reads aren't static in early game in other games he has played.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach, you think all 3 of us are scum, voting CES?

-what would be the reasoning you're referring to?

Let's put it this way. I refuse to believe all three of you are all town.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP

Zach, you think all 3 of us are scum, voting CES?

-what would be the reasoning you're referring to?

Let's put it this way. I refuse to believe all three of you are

all

town.

[Zachrulez]

If CES was to flip scum, would that opinion change?

And llama and I are town, fyi.

Obviously, because if he flipped scum I'd be on the wrong damn planet in terms of thinking.

Why are TSQ and CES scum together?

[Zachrulez]

Better way of putting that is how do you end up with scum reads on both?

[Zachrulez]

You filed TSQ as scum here.

Here's where I'm at:

Conftown via truth tells
Benmage
Zachrulez
singersigner

Most town looking
Regfan
Matias
Llamarble
Johhog

Other reasoning
SocioPath
Captain Haddock

Remainder:
Thestatusquo
Amrun
Bub Bidderskins
Cogito Ergo Sum

[Zachrulez]

More literally speaking, if CES was scum, could we all be town?

It would certainly be more possible than I think it is now.

[Zachrulez]

In red?

[Zachrulez]

(woah, I'd been working on this post since last night, came in as read the last page today, and got my own ninja...weird...)

Hey Bub, why would your team send you out as town?

I'm stuck in a massive town losing streak. Due to the tigerpocalypse it's hard to tell how large exactly, but I think it's 6-8 town losses in a row. I just can't seem to figure out how to hunt for scum. I don't get lynched, because I've learned how play "townie" (hence my much higher scum win percentage), but I just can't find scum.

Right now I'm on a mafia break, and when I get back into a mafia game, I want my town game to be better than it is now. Is there any hope for me?

This is actually a good point. I feel as though his answer (I don't like themes, etc) doesn't really cover the options of the other two that are not themed.

I think it needs to be pointed out that all of this presumes that bub's team had any scum PMs to distribute to begin with.

On TSQ's town reads. They are exclusively on people who were on the fence with him annoyed with his lurking, but not sure if it made him scum. I think that's all that needs to be said there.

[Zachrulez]

(woah, I'd been working on this post since last night, came in as read the last page today, and got my own ninja...weird...)

Hey Bub, why would your team send you out as town?

I'm stuck in a massive town losing streak. Due to the tigerpocalypse it's hard to tell how large exactly, but I think it's 6-8 town losses in a row. I just can't seem to figure out how to hunt for scum. I don't get lynched, because I've learned how play "townie" (hence my much higher scum win percentage), but I just can't find scum.

Right now I'm on a mafia break, and when I get back into a mafia game, I want my town game to be better than it is now. Is there any hope for me?

This is actually a good point. I feel as though his answer (I don't like themes, etc) doesn't really cover the options of the other two that are not themed.

I think it needs to be pointed out that all of this presumes that bub's team had any scum PMs to distribute to begin with.

On TSQ's town reads. They are exclusively on people who were on the fence with him annoyed with his lurking, but not sure if it made him scum. I think that's all that needs to be said there.

unvote; vote: Zach

Why are you voting for somebody that you aren't sure is scum four days until deadline. I really don't like how your vote has been parked on the easiest wagon to get on.

Has Shea posted yet?

Nope?

confirm vote: Thestatusquo

Sure he has, if you're counting posts that aren't being made in this game.

Unvote: Vote: Thestatusquo

That was made on May 8. That vote has been there ever since, and it was after the wagon had started. That vote has been totally useless for over a week.

How would you know how sure I am anyway?

Not that it's possible to be 100% sure without actually being scum...

I haven't moved the vote because I haven't really had any reason to.

[Zachrulez]

I'm interested in why bub's specifically interested in my vote when it's technically the most recent of all the active ones. (Since that was his basis.) It's an issue in a case specifically crafted against me, but not used for anyone else.

And TSQ if you have to? After me and CES? What?

Also TSQ is posting now and clearly defending himself. So your response to 3 is no longer valid.

[Zachrulez]

BTW I picked this game because I had a great experience last year and I like the setup.

That's not what

I

think.

So enlighten por favor.

[Zachrulez]

I'm interested in why bub's specifically interested in my vote when it's technically the most recent of all the active ones. (Since that was his basis.) It's an issue in a case specifically crafted against me, but not used for anyone else.

Yes, it was last on the bandwagon. You put your vote on an easy, useless bandwagon and left it there uselessly. You haven't scumhunted much at all since that, since you could just say "TSQ's scum" and leave it there, since TSQ can't respond.

And TSQ if you have to? After me and CES? What?

Well, actually I forgot about Amrun. My lynch order would be something like Zach>CES>Amrun>>>>>>>>TSQ. I would say Haddock's replacement above TSQ as wel, but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Also TSQ is posting now and clearly defending himself. So your response to 3 is no longer valid.

Bullshit scum argument. That point was valid when you voted for it. "I murdered all those people because they were shitting in the urinal, but now nobody is shitting in the urinal anymore, so I'm totally absolved of murder, right?" You can't go back in time zach. Let's look at what you've said about TSQ, who is apparently your number 1 scumread, since he actually started posting:

CES vote from TSQ is unimpressive.

I can sum up the rest of his activity as basically challenging Regfan's scumreads, and then calling Amrun obvtown.

Hardly anything that screams at me to unvote. If nothing else, I want the pressure on him to remain so he doesn't just go and disappear for another week.

On TSQ's town reads. They are exclusively on people who were on the fence with him annoyed with his lurking, but not sure if it made him scum. I think that's all that needs to be said there.

Just that, and you made 18 posts since he came back. And all you said was: "I don't really want to unvote" and

"I'm not sure if he's scum"

. On your supposed number one suspect.

Emphasis bold. I never said that.

[Zachrulez]

He's voting for me, now, and I found zero reasons he thinks I'm scummy in his ISO. Literally zero. He hasn't mentioned Benmage since I ASKED him why Benmage was scummy - and when I mentioned that he had voted Benmage and Benmage was his only real suspect and he had little reasoning for it, he said that wasn't true.

But, yes, it IS true. In essence, Johhog has done exactly what he claimed TSQ did - say he provided content when he didn't. Johhog has now talked more about why TSQ is scum than anyone else in the game, period. And yet, his vote is on me. Why? I don't know. I don't think Johhog knows. It reeks of opportunism, and he's setting himself up to get on the popular votee TSQ's wagon should that become viable in deadline.

VOTE: Johhog

I just looked through his iso back to the point where his vote moved to you and I can't find one either.

[Zachrulez]

We're nearing the end of the day, we're going to have to start moving towards a lynch so it's not last minute scramble. Bub, while I think Zach has a decent chance of being scum given that his posts have really gone downhill in this game he's not being lynched today so move to Amrun please.

If you seriously believe that, I really don't know what to tell ya.

[Zachrulez]

Frankly right now I'm annoyed that TSQ is looking increasingly unlikely to be lynched despite slipping back into lurking, (Who just received yet another prod?) and the other major wagons (I'm satisfied with Johhog's response re: reasoning for voting Amrun.) just downright depress me. Not going to be happy if those are the only lynch options when deadline nears.

[Zachrulez]

Falcon is giving me a strong town read now, stronger than Haddock.

The wagon on TSQ is indeed pure shit.

Johhog or Amrun. I'll throw down the hammer vote, but you guys choose, because I'm not lynching anyone else at this point. Sorry.

Even if the alternative is a no lynch? That's just terrible.

I really don't want to reward TSQ's play/lack of play by allowing him to get any deeper in the game, especially when there's a really good chance that it's scum motivated on his part. (To all those arguments that it makes him town. Fuck you.) To me, that's a lot worse than lynching anyone else who's actually bothered to contribute reasonably today.

Vote TSQ in 2012!

[Zachrulez]

Would take a Benmage or Llamarble lynch failing that. Any other wagon is a meh/avoid no lynch wagon.

[Zachrulez]

Yo Ben, who's scum?

[Zachrulez]

Feels like you're holding back, and I don't like it at all.

Vote: Benmage

[Zachrulez]

Suspicions rest around TSQ/Benmage/Llamarble and I would be happy lynching within these 3, and less so with anyone else. (With the exception of maybe Sociopath if he doesn't start picking it up soon.)

[Zachrulez]

I'm tired of empty promises from Shea. He promised his catch up analysis last night and what did he do

for hours

instead? JUST GUESS.

I was willing to be patient, but enough's enough.

vote: Thestatusquo

I'm with you in spirit, but at the moment I am suffering from I only have one voteitus.

[Zachrulez]

Singer is town.

[Zachrulez]

I don't buy it. You, for one, should know how much easier it is to post around site than it is to get into a 20+ page game coming out of barely posting at the start. You still haven't answered how it's not the fact that it's TSQ HIMSELF doing this, but in fact, it's a product of him being scum. This is all stuff that could be scum behavior, but it's also stuff I see TSQ doing as ANY ALIGNMENT. You are ignoring that and if you are scum, you fucked up by not getting off of his wagon sooner. I'm betting that you fucked up. Even CES doesn't care about lynching TSQ any longer, and he's probably town.

You wanting TSQ gone isn't bothering me, it's because you don't even care to fucking wait around for a replacement and you straight up slipped saying that you want him replaced AND you want him lynched.

You keep telling me that I'm not reading, but you aren't

listening

because you're frustrated. I think that you're frustrated that you didn't get an easy lynch off. It's that simple.

Or she's frustrated because she actually believes he (and his slot) are scum and can't get him lynched.

The main point against TSQ is that in showing as much site activity as he has, he clearly has time for this game and is choosing/chose not to participate in it. The real life issues he claims to have aren't relevant, the choice is.

[Zachrulez]

And no, singer, the fact that you posted "I don't care" doesn't mean shit because the fact remains that posting that someone should replace out and someone should die in the same post is a MAJOR contradiction, you can't justify that.

It's really not.

[Zachrulez]

I've actually wanted him replaced since probably about halfway through day 1. It hurts the town not to have contribution from his slot. That's incidentally why I think he's more likely scum. There is a possibility that I'm wrong, and a replacement might be able to convince me of that, thus getting a replacement that might contribute to the game isn't a bad thing in that regard. (Said content can also strengthen a scum read.)

[Zachrulez]

We can't afford just lynching lazy players for the sake of them being gone.

I don't think I ever used the P word in arguing why TSQ should die.

[Zachrulez]

Well, maybe people should.

Nacho, another player, has taken over TSQ's slot, so we can see how he plays, if he plays any better at all. Why does he have to straight up die because TSQ was lazy?

Because TSQ was lazy scum.

But you're right, we can see how Nacho plays. Knowing Nacho though, I'm expecting more of the same.

[Zachrulez]

Just for a short brief time, I had hope that there'd be a viable wagon on Benmage scum...

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Llamarble

[Zachrulez]

I'd rather hear from Llamarble first before I make judgment on him.

I've heard a lot in the silence that has been coming from him since the end of day 1.

[Zachrulez]

I just looked at search on him and misread last post from tue as thu, so I might have jumped the gun on that. It's not my primary reason for suspecting him anyway.

[Zachrulez]

For the record I love me some lurking as scum, and I'm not stupid either.

But I thought you sucked as scum...

I wasn't bragging. I literally know nothing else as scum and it inevitably leads to me getting caught.

[Zachrulez]

I don't get it either.

[Zachrulez]

Oh christ.

[Zachrulez]

I had to open pandora's box.

[Zachrulez]

I am extremely annoyed now because I don't think I can talk about this without blowing up the proverbial mine.

[Zachrulez]

Basically just waiting for stuff to happen.

Can't talk about what Falcon brought up regarding CES, but this is me not moving my vote to CES.

[Zachrulez]

Last two pages... urgh.

TSQ has posted on site approx 40 times since this game opened, just so everyone is aware... and Amrun's the leading wagon?

I would have liked this more if you didn't outright ignore the Amrun wagon. Certainly you know it's sort of difficult to get lurkers lynched on posting elsewhere when being absent from the thread, so why didn't you do more to push it?

To come to this conclusion you would have had to ignore day 1 completely...

CES vote from TSQ is unimpressive.

I can sum up the rest of his activity as basically challenging Regfan's scumreads, and then calling Amrun obvtown.

Hardly anything that screams at me to unvote. If nothing else, I want the pressure on him to remain so he doesn't just go and disappear for another week.

Cool story? You haven't exactly been posting much content lately.

Whatever you say.

Looks like
...remainder actually.

In red?

If I put a town read in red, does that make it a scum read? No.
The fact you actually asked this question is ridiculous in a way that made me laugh.

Made you laugh cause you're scum? The whole thing in context is a sensible inquiry man.

I like Bub's Zach vote.

I'm sure you do.

LLamarble is an intelligent player. He is also a good player, touting an impressive win to loss ratio, and even going as far as listing himself an 8 or a 9 in terms of player skill. Although I can't find the thread, I remember his explanation of the reason vividly. Essentially, LLmarble's definition of a good player is the rate of turnaround when replacing into a slot. Turning a bad slot into a protown slot that lives to endgame is one of his primary criteria for viewing another player as "good".

Llmarble's cockiness is just the type of thing that would lead me to believe he chose scum again (given the option). However, that rests on the question - did he have the option? Given his play, I think so.

Llamarble is cocky, but so is everyone else on his team. Magna, Grey, and LLD, right? Unfortunately, I can't double-check it now since I don't have internet, but all 3 of those I consider more arrogant than Llamarble, and all are comfortable as scum. Even then, he's still pretty damn scummy to me at this point.

You couldn't be trying to have it both ways on this issue could you? Nah...

Uh, yes, I believe he's trolling you.

But why does trolling = town?

Honestly, given the amount of strong town reads I have I think there's a great chance of them both being mafia ignoring any connection between them. With that said my biggest worry is that I get NKed tonight to watch the town eat itself alive. I really cannot stress enough how confident I am in Bub/Matias/Captain and Johhog being town and to a slightly lesser extent to you, CES and Benmage. If I do die I want this reads section requoted over and over again.

I don't think that mafia would've killed Reg if any of the first 4 were scum, but that's just me.

Nightkill speculation. Very valuable insight.

Sorry, I am new to this site.

Three days until deadline, and Socio still has what feels like a throwaway vote on Johhog. This is terrible.

And what are you going to do about it? Worthless throwaway comment.

After reading this post in context and his answer to my original question I feel like Socio is likely town.

FATE PULLED THE EXACT SAME THING LAST YEAR
THE SAME THING
"Oh yeah, this is different, I'm changing my ways and becoming calmer and blah, blah, blah."
People picked up on it, and so they called him scum. Then he reverted to old Fate, and people found it town. So, Socio will troll until people pressure him, and then he will be the old, active, awesome Socio and he doesn't even explain how he stayed alive so long. Fuck that.

Again, put up or shut up.

I really don't want to reward TSQ's play/lack of play by allowing him to get any deeper in the game, especially when there's a really good chance that it's scum motivated on his part. (To all those arguments that it makes him town. Fuck you.) To me, that's a lot worse than lynching anyone else who's actually bothered to contribute reasonably today.

Vote TSQ in 2012!

You don't want to reward TSQ's lack of play by allowing him to get deeper in the game? Could you explain that, please?

What's there to elaborate on? I think the stance is pretty clear as stated. I think TSQ's lack of activity was scum motivated and I don't want the slot (IE: You) to get deeper in the game because I think it benefits a scum wincon.

Would take a Benmage or Llamarble lynch failing that. Any other wagon is a meh/avoid no lynch wagon.

oh hey this looks kind of familiar.
are you ces?

No, but I think we're both town and on the same wavelength... does that bother you? I wonder why.

UNFORTUNATELY I am going to have to do this earlier than I would have liked, but ALAS this is the last chance I have to vote.

Unvote
Vote: Amrun

I don't care about anyone's cases are theories on Amrun, those are all fine and dandy, but here is the REAL KICKER:

It's magic! Socio, who doesn't do shit the whole game, magically shows up to help lynch Amrun!
No one bats an eye. No one flinches.
God, it would really suck if he was scum. But no one would believe that, would they?

Yet again, put up or shut up.

Feels like you're holding back, and I don't like it at all.

"feels like you're holding back"
what
what what what what what

Don't act so confused. Benmage ain't doing shit, and that's not the Benmage I know.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CES

yeah, why not bub? it surprising me a bit you shot for llama and ces instead of the guy who was your strongest read yesterday.

So what? Is he scummy for this or what? (Hint: He's town, and this is a ridiculously pointless jab.)

I find singer's push on shea very townie. Extending yourself out so far, putting so much into getting a lynch on a lurker slot... no. I seriously doubt it.

Hey, we've both been laying similar pushes on TSQ, so it should be entertaining to hear from you how you came to different conclusions regarding us. Don't worry, I have popcorn ready.

Because TSQ was lazy scum.

But you're right, we can see how Nacho plays. Knowing Nacho though, I'm expecting more of the same.

And when I end up actually doing something, will you actually make a case, or will you just sheep CES to the bitter, bitter end?

Why does the idea of me sheeping CES bother you so? WHY?

I wasn't bragging. I literally know nothing else as scum and it inevitably leads to me getting caught.

Well, that's interesting because I feel that you've been lurking a fair bit yourself this game while putting pressure on two specific lurkers (Benmage, TSQ), while ignoring the really, really obvious one (SOCIOPATH). Do you disagree with this?

Me lurking? Are you serious? I think I'm going to have to laugh now.

As far as who is scummy, I think that Socio guy is scummy as hell.
He has lurked all game, and hasn't provided much content. (if ANY real content)
Hasn't been helpful at all, hasn't been cooperative with the town and clear townies out there.
Still alive D2 despite being on the returning champion's team with all the insight and knowledge that goes with that.
Has said ONE WORD today so far, which only looks to have been said to dodge prods.

I'm sure someone can come up with a better case for this guy.
I think a wagon on him would be very beneficial at this point to see where everyone stands and why.

Anyone who has called him town is scummy as hell, that is for sure.

BUT ENOUGH ABOUT THAT.

Wow, the first thing you've said that I actually agree with. Nice!

PUT UP OR... ECT.

Did SocioPath regurgitate a read from mid Day 1 that is 100% outdated, using it as a vote for early to mid Day 2?

..Socio, do you really have nothing else to say about anyone else?

Yup.

You're well over the limit of mentioning how scummy socio is without doing anything about it at this point. WAY OVER THE LIMIT.

So, right now, my two scumpicks are Socio and Zach. Socio is scummy as fuck for intentionally lurking his way through the game for ALL of Day 1, and only starting now. Add to that the opportunistic L-1 vote onto Amrun, and I'm feeling pretty good about myself. I also think it's important to note that no one had a scumread on Socio yesterday. Absolutely no one. Town ignores him because he did really good last year and they're hoping for a replay, and scum ignores them because he's their best buddy. If he's town, congrats, he's gained another day, but if that were the case, he could have given the BARE MINIMUM yesterday, and nudged the town in subtle ways that almost certainly wouldn't have gotten him nightkilled.

Cool your narrative on Socio makes way more sense than your narrative on me... yet...

Zach, on the other hand, has been living in CES's shadow the entire game. However, he doesn't have the no-case, push push push playstyle that CES does, and I really, really find it difficult to believe that his and CES's opinions haven't strayed a bit from one another the entire game. Contrast this with singer, who might agree with CES on a lot, still somewhat suspects him, and took a special interest in getting the TSQ lynch. Zach, none of that. Add to that the self-given meta about him liking town more than scum ("even more than singer does!") is suspicious as fuck. I think that he took scum for WIFOM purposes, so he wanted to make damn sure everyone knew about his preference. Then, let's actually look at what he's done. Tried to lynch TSQ for lurking, and tried to lynch Benmage because he feels like he's holding back. While doing nothing himself. And while ignoring Socio who is clearly and obviously holding back and lurking and not giving a fuck about lynching scum in the least bit.

So I'm scum for WIFOM purposes? WOW.

Singer, Matias, CES, and Captain Oversoul are still town all the way.
Ben is still probably town, but I want the dragon to wake up pretty soon.
Bub and Johhog and Llamarble need to post more.
Bub or Llamarble would be backup scum, but it doesn't matter quite yet.

For now,

Vote: Zachrulez

Zach's the stronger read for now, but I'm sure once the elusive "try hard socio" appears and actually responds to my posts, I'll have a lot more to say about that.

AND YOU VOTE ME ON THAT BASIS. ON WIFOM. WITH A STRONGER CASE ON SOCIOPATH. GOOD LORD!

Unvote: Vote: Nachomamma8

I kind of have to since all this bullshit points to Nacho/Socio. (With Socio being the recipient of a bus if necessary.) It indicates I may be wrong about one of my scum reads.

[Zachrulez]

There's literally no way Nacho comes to the conclusions he has if he's actually legitimately trying to read me. HIS case is literally I chose scum for WIFOM reasons. Cut through all the bullshit, and that's what it is.

[Zachrulez]

unvote; vote: zach

That case on nacho is terrible. The whole thing is total fluff that's been trumped up with quotes to make it look like something. It basically boils down to "y u voting me when u say socio scum, too." Which is stupid. The whole case is OMGUS.

Have you ever caught scum who's voted for you before? It is possible. Lumping everything where someone else votes the voter first as OMGUS is a really narrow way to play the game.

[Zachrulez]

Also Bub, my post wasn't a "case." It was more tearing Nacho's crap down.

[Zachrulez]

Also on the OMGUS issue, I was voting TSQ most of the first day phase, and I haven't backed off on calling the slot scum... so OMGUS... right.

Seriously Bub... if you are town here, this is why you lose games.

[Zachrulez]

Nacho, I didn't join the Amrun wagon because I thought she was town strongly. I'm pretty sure I stated that pretty clearly. I DID push TSQ for day one. My ISO will show this.

Also on the OMGUS issue, I was voting TSQ most of the first day phase, and I haven't backed off on calling the slot scum... so OMGUS... right.

Seriously Bub... if you are town here, this is why you lose games.

welp, Bub's town.

That's pretty much the read I've had since early day 1.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, maybe not as clearly. But my town read on Amrun was stated here.

[Zachrulez]

I also ask Nacho and Zach to stop cross voting since that accomplishes nothing and is flooding the thread with ego driven walls.

I wrote one wall and I'm done responding to him in that fashion now because that's what it will turn into.

[Zachrulez]

Also on the OMGUS issue, I was voting TSQ most of the first day phase, and I haven't backed off on calling the slot scum... so OMGUS... right.

Seriously Bub... if you are town here, this is why you lose games.

welp, Bub's town.

This is faulty logic and continues on the path of no one really explaining why Bub is town.

Are you basing this comment on the fact that you think Zach is scum?

I think he's trying to say it's a scum slip on my part.

[Zachrulez]

He was making up bullshit reasoning in order to make Ben look like a liar after he said he didn't call TSQ scum. I find that scummy.

It's scummy that I'm confused about why he listed TSQ in red in a color coded reads list when he insisted (later) that wasn't what he was doing?

If that post had never been called into question, would you have interpreted TSQ in red as being anything BUT a scumread? (The issue here is vagueness in reads, not Benmage being a "liar.")

I'm having a really hard time seeing this line of attack coming from a town perspective.

[Zachrulez]

He insisted later that TSQ wasn't a scumread, not that he didn't color TSQ's name red.
If that post had never been called into question, then I would have interpreted TSQ in red UNDER THE TITLE REMAINDERS as not a townread.

Ah huh.

Also I'm deliberately not answering 948. (A read of my play clearly answers the question already.)

[Zachrulez]

He insisted later that TSQ wasn't a scumread, not that he didn't color TSQ's name red.
If that post had never been called into question, then I would have interpreted TSQ in red UNDER THE TITLE REMAINDERS as not a townread.

Ah huh.

Also I'm deliberately not answering 948. (A read of my play clearly answers the question already.)

so basically
TSQ and because you can't see how anyone could attack you from a town perspective?

Because your points against me are just utter crap that scream of scum looking to mislynch a player that any reasonable person would read as town. (Kinda like Amrun yesterday.)

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, all aboard the Llamarblewagon.

Oh right.

Unvote: Vote Llamarble

[Zachrulez]

Though I do agree with wondering why Llamarble felt the need to specify that he could provide "proof" of his absence...

Less bothered by that than I am the sheer emptiness of his play today.

[Zachrulez]

He insisted later that TSQ wasn't a scumread, not that he didn't color TSQ's name red.
If that post had never been called into question, then I would have interpreted TSQ in red UNDER THE TITLE REMAINDERS as not a townread.

Ah huh.

Also I'm deliberately not answering 948. (A read of my play clearly answers the question already.)

so basically
TSQ and because you can't see how anyone could attack you from a town perspective?

Because your points against me are just utter crap that scream of scum looking to mislynch a player that any reasonable person would read as town. (Kinda like Amrun yesterday.)

(then why didn't you attack anyone on Amrun's wagon yesterday...?)

I figured I would need to clarify immediately after saying that. I was alluding to the precedent of a terrible lynch on a player people shouldn't have even been thinking about lynching, not that I thought it was heavily scum pushed. I think you're seizing on the fact that the town might possibly be willing to do that again.

[Zachrulez]

My play has been empty today because I have had very little time for this game.
I'm catching up / rereading how we got from 4 3 vote wagons to a lynch yesterday right now.
Also CES town sitting his vote basically the entire game on people who simply have not been present to respond does not compute.

You're saying he was expecting you to be inactive? Because that's a pretty ridiculous accusation to make really.

[Zachrulez]

Nacho's activity level looks high compared to Nacho scum.
I like his catch up.
I think CES is a good chunk more likely to be scum than Zach though.
VOTE: CES

I'm going to look at Amrun's wagon though. CES wasn't on it.

Also last year I killed IPie Because he was obvtown and wrongly listed me as town and I didn't want to give him a chance to change his mind. There are a lot of possible reasons for Regfan to die and I'm going to reread his / Amrun's arguments.

Your statement about wanting to look at the Amrun wagon indicates you think most of the scum were on it. Is that what you think and if so who are they?

Also if you think that your vote is clearly in the wrong place cause only two scumlynches are needed to win.

[Zachrulez]

What do you think of Socio's "emptiness" of play, with no explanation, nor offer of any reason for his absence/lack of participation?

I have a slate of four players that I think lynching gives the town a very strong chance of winning. Nacho, Llamarble, Benmage, and Sociopath are all on that slate. I'd be willing to lynch Socio with a viable wagon on him.

This whole argument re: Benmage coloring Shea in red when everyone else in red was a scum read and then claiming to never say/think Shea was scum is ridiculous. No he did not EXPLICITLY SAY that those in red were scum, but any reasonable person would assume that's what he was talking about when everyone else was mild-null scum. I could be convinced to move to Benmage today.

Thank you, that was basically my ENTIRE problem with it. Nacho's trying to turn it into me saying Benmage lied about putting the name in red or something stupid so that the entire context of the argument gets lost and makes it easier for him to paint me as scum.

[Zachrulez]

For the record, Zach was not the only one who disagreed with the Amrun wagon, nor was he the only one to express its shittiness.

He didn't express its shittiness yesterday.

Nope. Totally Didn't.

It was pretty clear what I thought of it and that I didn't want to support it.

This whole argument re: Benmage coloring Shea in red when everyone else in red was a scum read and then claiming to never say/think Shea was scum is ridiculous. No he did not EXPLICITLY SAY that those in red were scum, but any reasonable person would assume that's what he was talking about when everyone else was mild-null scum. I could be convinced to move to Benmage today.

Three scumreads, lurker as backup.
That doesn't mean he should be forced to justify lurker and scumsuspect A as scum together.

He should just be allowed to be as vague as possible, because it makes people like me easy to attack when we try to interpret it, right?

[Zachrulez]

I also find the notion pretty hilarious that Nacho wants to argue that I could have prevented Amrun's lynch by being more vocally against it. If that was the case, then I should have also been able to get his slot lynched, but clearly that didn't happen either... (I WAS vocal about that one.)

[Zachrulez]

Scum want to be on losing wagons that they can look like they legitimately believe in, and voting lurkers who are likely to show up and push the lynch away are good options for that.

I posit to you that the shealynch would've gone through if Amrun hadn't been V/LA at the end there, so I very much question the relevance of this.

You can get more basic than that and say his vote was key in getting Amrun lynched and in avoiding Shealynch.

[Zachrulez]

I was expecting him to vote for Amrun if he had the chance though.

I'm basing that opinion on pure bandwagon analysis. TSQ was the leading wagon when he tied it up, which made Amrun a viable lynch.

Having a lot of trouble reconciling his stance on TSQ in that post vs this one.

The shift looks very unnatural to me and is the biggest thing that bothers me about Llama right now.

[Zachrulez]

Basically the whole suspect em when they lurk and then call them town when they become active is not something I have an easy time finding examples for from town, but a lot easier to find when it comes from scum. (Because what leads you to suspect a lurker is not likely to be something that will be completely alleviated with one spat of activity.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach, do you have recent scum meta of you as a lone wolf?

Please stop intentionally or unintentionally ignoring my questions.

What does this mean? A game where I was the only remaining scum? You'd have to go WAY back if that's what you're asking.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, do you have recent scum meta of you as a lone wolf?

Please stop intentionally or unintentionally ignoring my questions.

What does this mean? A game where I was the only remaining scum? You'd have to go WAY back if that's what you're asking.

Where you were scum as Zachrulez, and not hydraing with Sotty.

In that case it would be Paranoia Mafia. I was in the game as Sottyrulez, but I was the only one playing.

[Zachrulez]

I haven't seen Llamarble make anything close to a convincing argument about why CES is scum. Ditto Benmage.

Kinda at that point where I really don't have much more to say and anything I would say would pretty much be filler...

... Lynch Llamarble, ect.

[Zachrulez]

I'm unimpressed with you calling CES scum. I don't mind lynching Benmage. (Actually prefer it, but I'd be dividing the wagons without a clear path to a Benmage lynch.)

[Zachrulez]

... Screw it. Best way to find out if it's viable is to put my vote there.

Unvote: Vote: Benmage

Mind you I think Benmage AND Llamarble are both great lynches, it's just a preference issue at this point.

[Zachrulez]

P.S. the notion that MoS being on benmage's team is somehow incongruous with him being useless is nonsensical. And the person I'd most expect to care would be benmage if he were scum.

Thank you. Anyone worth 2 cents should have written me down as conftown long ago.

That said, quite comical I get some votes after promising to get my act together this weekend.

That's not a significant factor in my vote.

[Zachrulez]

P.S. the notion that MoS being on benmage's team is somehow incongruous with him being useless is nonsensical. And the person I'd most expect to care would be benmage if he were scum.

Thank you.

Anyone worth 2 cents should have written me down as conftown long ago.

That said, quite comical I get some votes after promising to get my act together this weekend.

That's not a significant factor in my vote.

Im assuming you don't mean the bolded. So, what do you think of CES's point?

And what is the significant factor?

No I wasn't referring to the bolded. The bolded means nothing to me. Team meta factors aside and the arguments they do or do not bring, it's your play that is driving my vote, it's ringing all the alarm bells in my head. The type of play you are bringing to this game is not consistent at all with the town Benmage I know, but it is consistent with the scum Benmage that I know.

[Zachrulez]

but it is consistent with the scum Benmage that I know.

What game are you referring to?

In terms of town experiences I would be referring to games like Apennine mafia and Stars aligned III. (I can't remember if I've played with Benmage town in other games.) In terms of scum experiences I would be referring to The Simpsons theme game, and Mafia Invictus.

[Zachrulez]

Here are the links to the games if anyone wants to actually look them up.

Apennine Mafia
Star's Aligned III
Mafia Invictus
Simpsons Theme

[Zachrulez]

Your meta is actually kind of backwards to what I tend to expect from players, but is staggeringly easy to distinguish once you know what you're looking for.

[Zachrulez]

Gosh zach you gonna make me find town games of me being lackadasical?

You dont believe my I can't pick scum spiel?

I don't really buy the basis of the argument, cause you can make it whether or not you actually do decide to select scum.

[Zachrulez]

g2g lil bros graduation, gosh zach get it together.

I'm pretty sure I have it together. But go ahead, tell me who I should vote. Convince me. You haven't even really tried to do that with any vote you've made the entire game.

[Zachrulez]

Argh

Unvote: Vote: Llamarble

[Zachrulez]

Zach, as it stands, Benmage won't be lynched without Nacho, 'marble and Sociopath uniting. Llamarble doesn't look like he's bussing nor does Nacho, although to a lesser extent. Make the right call.

I think I actually would have had a pretty good chance of getting it, but I've got some cold feet regarding it now for various reasons. (1100 has some to do with it, the players on the wagon have some as well.)

[Zachrulez]

Have my doubts about Benmage being scum in light of recent events.

My eye is firmly in the direction of Nachomamma and Sociopath.

If you go back to Nacho's vote at the end of day 2, Llamarble was at 4 votes at the time and Benmage was at 3. He opts to vote for Benmage despite his previous suspicion of me and the fact that I happened to be on that wagon... yeeeeeeeeeeah...

Vote: Nachomamma8

Sociopath has no excuse to continue playing the way he's been playing since the next scum lynch is a town win, if he doesn't pick it up at this point he's an acceptable lynch as well.

[Zachrulez]

Derp.

[Zachrulez]

I mean this isn't exactly rocket science. CES' next suspect was clearly going to be Nacho. Now that CES is dead, all you need to do is take a look at how likely it is that the remaining players in the game are to actually lynch Nacho. (As opposed to simply leaving CES and his influence alive if Nacho was town.)

Like... come on.

[Zachrulez]

The one thing that makes me lean town on nacho is llamarble's interaction with TSQ D-1. One of the main reasons I thought Llamarble was scum was his wagon hop onto TSQ.

That interaction is worthless because Llamarble backed off that read later and called the wagon horrible. It's important to consider that he did this in a situation where his Amrun vote was key to making her lynch viable.

When you look at interactions you need to look at whether the interaction you are seeing is one where a player actually wants to see another lynched. In Llamarble/Nacho, you never see that, from either side.

[Zachrulez]

This disappoints me. GET THE FUCK IN HERE EVERYONE AND VOTE FOR NACHO KTHX.

Sadly I can't do it more than once...

[Zachrulez]

Strange. Sotty made a comment in our team QT about liking Johhog's Matias vote which indicates that she also likes Matias for scum. Personally I don't get it.

[Zachrulez]

Well kill analysis seems to indicate it's not him unless he likes killing people that have town reads on him. I just don't see it. (I do see his play being weak and disappointing, but I just don't think it's because he's scum.)

[Zachrulez]

Oh and Matias, now that you're here, who's scum?

[Zachrulez]

Sorry, hit submit because I just woke up. fweh.

So if anyone, probably him, but my reads have been kind of shit this game.

Yup.

You're scum.

He makes this comment about Socio's "easy" vote on Bub when Matias had an "easy" vote on SingerSinger.

What did Matias do after easy voting Singer?

He unvoted and then never placed a vote again, after 6 vote counts.

Until Llmarble died.

Got that part in iso. Probably the strongest argument in favor of Matias scum, but I'm not sure how strongly I feel about it. I was kinda hoping for something in elaboration that I missed.

[Zachrulez]

singer's an easy vote? I remember I had to fight against a ton of people to try to get someone to see on my level, and I've since backed off because she wasn't a viable lynch at the time + she backed off on her read on TSQ/Nacho since his catchup.

Why would her backing off TSQ/Nacho be a reason to think she's less likely scum? (Not being viable certainly isn't a reason for backing off of thinking she is.)

I am interested in particular because that's where her interest is right now.

[Zachrulez]

I'm also not saying she's explicitly town; I'm saying my reads are fucked.

Which is not a good excuse to not have any reads now.

[Zachrulez]

Why was Amrun's so bad in particular?

He connected you two as teammates and given his self stated meta on Day 1, obviously he was not going to go out of his way to attack you both seeing as it would make him a potential target which to my knowledge is the entire reason he is playing the way he is.

Which is fine if you buy the explanation at face value and don't think he's actually playing that way to be able to explain his survival in the game because he's actually scum.

And further, he has no reason now to continue to play to that strategy as town, because all the town needs to do is lynch one more scum to win, and there's no threat of a nightkill following that which would lead to last year's result.

[Zachrulez]

This is kinda bothering me so I have to ask.

Why is Johhog town?

I haven't really been able to get a really solid read on him throughout the game, but I did manage to file him off as town without really being able to put a reason behind why that was. Looking through his play yesterday, he pushed back against the Llamarble wagon to the point of saying he thought it might be scum driven while stating a null read on Llama himself. (The candidates for scum on that wagon at the point he said it would be bub, myself, and CES. We know CES's alignment. I know mine, and I think Bub is town who is tunneled on me.)

[Zachrulez]

And yeah, my gut tells me that Matias is a bad lynch.

[Zachrulez]

I haven't really been able to get a really solid read on him throughout the game, but I did manage to file him off as town without really being able to put a reason behind why that was. Looking through his play yesterday, he pushed back against the Llamarble wagon to the point of saying he thought it might be scum driven while stating a null read on Llama himself. (The candidates for scum on that wagon at the point he said it would be bub, myself, and CES. We know CES's alignment. I know mine, and I think Bub is town who is tunneled on me.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here but obviously I don't think that it's scum driven anymore (

intentionally

at least), it would be pretty stupid to bus this early with this setup.

Yeah, I'm curious about the thought process at the time, not the thought process now.

[Zachrulez]

I haven't really been able to get a really solid read on him throughout the game, but I did manage to file him off as town without really being able to put a reason behind why that was. Looking through his play yesterday, he pushed back against the Llamarble wagon to the point of saying he thought it might be scum driven while stating a null read on Llama himself. (The candidates for scum on that wagon at the point he said it would be bub, myself, and CES. We know CES's alignment. I know mine, and I think Bub is town who is tunneled on me.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here but obviously I don't think that it's scum driven anymore (

intentionally

at least), it would be pretty stupid to bus this early with this setup.

Yeah, I'm curious about the thought process at the time, not the thought process now.

I did not see the case against Llamarble (I

still

can't see it in retrospect but well, we were lucky) so when I saw the votes piling up against him I thought it was scum trying to jump on an easy target. That's it, basically.

Yeah, but who did you think WAS the scum pushing the wagon then? The thought process is fine as town if you have a particular suspect in mind, but with no clearly seen mindset of who's the likely scum pushing the wagon, it's just an empty comment meant to put a bitter taste on the wagon for anyone that's considering putting a vote there.

[Zachrulez]

This confirmed townie thing is annoying because it already gets used way more often than it actually applies in non mountainous setups as it is. But this discussion isn't going to help us find scum either... so...

[Zachrulez]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

Wow, that was a lazy vote.

vote: matias

Because of this, I can definitely see a nacho/matias scumteam now. Matias is avoiding mentioning nacho and voting the next most viable wagon.

With your support a nacho lynch can totally happen.

[Zachrulez]

Here's the deal. I don't have Nacho on my list of scum, at all (however bad my read list may be). He never got any scummier since TSQ replaced out and he caught up. So, obviously I'm not going to vote him. I have no reason to.

You want to lynch him? Be my guest, but I'll be no part of it. I honestly think Socio coasted late Day 2 and that's all I have to say about that.

Do you think his wagon is scum driven?

[Zachrulez]

I'd be pretty shocked if Nacho/Socio doesn't get it done.

[Zachrulez]

LET THIS BE THE END PLZ.

[Zachrulez]

It was interesting to watch Nacho try the White Flag gambit with a town that was clearly not going to have any of it.