TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Nachomamma8]

I have a half an hour to catch up, so I'm probably not gonna get done by today.

He was the fourth on the bandwagon, which is my breaking point for "bandwagon inflation". But more importantly, he made a comment that did not further any discussion at all and was kind of pointless. Other people either just voted or came up with a silly reason for voting. You asked Singer a valid meta-related question. CES just made a silly comment on the game itself that served no purpose.

This is stupid. If you're making that argument, then I don't really see how singer/llamarble/amrun/captain did any more to get the game out of the RVS than CES did. I don't really like this because it seems like a failed attempt at a strong start.

Llamarble's #23 also seems like it's falling into the same trap.

I don't understand why Matias unvoted at the top of page two. Was it so he could brag that he predicted the Llamarble forming, or...? Not really liking how he's trying to push something on Haddock, but needs Zach's approval to do it.

Zach bringing up his own meta sucks. A lot.

I'm getting a pretty strong town read from singer based on how aggressively she's responding to Zach and Matias.

Matias is being stubborn as hell with the brilliance of his RVS wagon that he started on Llamarble, and I'm reading it as pretty distinctly townish. At least from the times I've played with him, he's been a lot more passive and reserved.

Sparing the long detailed explanation, the gist of it is that I'm terrible at scum.

I would like the long detailed explanation.

Fishing around for views on self instead of scum. This most is mainly just a defense asking for reasons why people think he's scum.

It's pretty standard procedure to ask why people are voting you if you are suspected and you don't really know why.

For the record I love me some lurking as scum, and I'm not stupid either.

But I thought you sucked as scum...

I really like how Captain Haddock is insistent in getting people to read his ISO in order to read his case on Matias. It shows that he's pretty damn confident in it, and that he's also confident that his ISO shows his towniness.

I like Johhog's #302. He could let the newbie card ride for a little while, but instead takes a hit right in the pride. If he were scum, I think the ego would translate more into a "I'll show you by crushing your entire team" rather than a simple fuck you.

1. CES' reads have been static for half the game so far. Maybe a top scumread stays the same for a long time, but all 3 top reads don't stay the same when you're looking for scum. Especially when you have a whole team's worth of people with new ideas.

I disagree, and I think that it's scummy you're trying to discount CES's reads because he's had them for a long time.

made it halfway through pretty much, will continue later
for now matias and singer and haddock are solidly town
bub and johhog and ben are pretty town

[Nachomamma8]

I've found a patch of wifi in this godless place, and so I will be opening all pages of the game I have left to read and saving them for my ride back home. Meanwhile, I'm going to catchup in my other games right now so all I have to worry about is this game.

[Nachomamma8]

Regfan is sketchier than I remembered, but I agree with him about most things.

Well, this is strange. Comes out of nowhere, no followup, someone no one else had brought up before... Just feeling out the waters?

^Town unless Johhog's scum.
Scum don't randomly spike plausible mislynches often, and especially don't put in a bunch of meta effort to do so.

VOTE: VOTE: Amrun
Basically same reason as Regfan/Haddock.

And now all of a sudden he's calling Regfan town and sheeping her, as if he never had a bit of doubt in the first place. Seems a bit odd to comment on it if you're just going to cast it aside a moment later.

The exchange between Matias and Amrun from #409-#414 is ridiculously confusing. Matias says that the only problem his QT has with Amrun is the fact that she is overexplaining her town reads too much, but that's pretty much null because Amrun did that in another game. He also says that Llamarble is his biggest problem with the Amrun wagon, and then votes her. Then, Amrun points out that she was a cop with an innocent on SV in that game, and Matias unvotes, pushing all blame for the exchange on Rhinox. I don't like this for two reasons. 1) If the biggest evidence you have is proved null and you have a problem with someone who just voted on the wagon, shouldn't that warrant not voting the person? Then, when it's proven to be completely valid, you unvote? Why?

Right now, I'm really not feeling the Amrun wagon. It seems mainly based on an off-hand comment she made that doesn't really mean anything. I'd much prefer a Haddock or Johhog lynch.

This makes it seem like he ignored the Amrun wagon completely. I don't really know why he dismissed it so easily, but I can't really assign scum motive to it so I guess I'll just move on and leave it here for now.

Last two pages... urgh.

TSQ has posted on site approx 40 times since this game opened, just so everyone is aware... and Amrun's the leading wagon?

I would have liked this more if you didn't outright ignore the Amrun wagon. Certainly you know it's sort of difficult to get lurkers lynched on posting elsewhere when being absent from the thread, so why didn't you do more to push it?

Note: I'll be back to normal early D2.

I look forward to seeing this.

I've always appreciated the pure skill aspect of mountainous. See Zachs mountainous game.

It feels like too long since I've seen a good Ben post. It's been a bunch of back and forth with CES with CES occasionally doing other things, but Ben doing nothing.

CES vote from TSQ is unimpressive.

I can sum up the rest of his activity as basically challenging Regfan's scumreads, and then calling Amrun obvtown.

Hardly anything that screams at me to unvote. If nothing else, I want the pressure on him to remain so he doesn't just go and disappear for another week.

Cool story? You haven't exactly been posting much content lately.

I played with Benmage in Weather Mafia II (I *think* that's the only experience I've had with him) and he seemed to be just as loud and obnoxious as he is/has been here. Can you be more specific as to what feel "wrong"?

I wouldn't describe him as loud and obnoxious at all this game.

Why is that?

hey you are kind of being useless as fuck right now.

Looks like
...remainder actually.

In red?

If I put a town read in red, does that make it a scum read? No.
The fact you actually asked this question is ridiculous in a way that made me laugh.

Also, Johhog gets a few extra town points for bringing up Benmage's bullshit with not calling Shea scum, when he clearly did.

No, he didn't. There is a difference between a scumread and someone you don't have a townread on. A big difference, in fact.

socio since you're clearly town, can you vote CES or atleast give an opinion on him please.

mad trolling does not equal town. are you people afraid to attack him or something?

I like Bub's Zach vote.

LLamarble is an intelligent player. He is also a good player, touting an impressive win to loss ratio, and even going as far as listing himself an 8 or a 9 in terms of player skill. Although I can't find the thread, I remember his explanation of the reason vividly. Essentially, LLmarble's definition of a good player is the rate of turnaround when replacing into a slot. Turning a bad slot into a protown slot that lives to endgame is one of his primary criteria for viewing another player as "good".

Llmarble's cockiness is just the type of thing that would lead me to believe he chose scum again (given the option). However, that rests on the question - did he have the option? Given his play, I think so.

Llamarble is cocky, but so is everyone else on his team. Magna, Grey, and LLD, right? Unfortunately, I can't double-check it now since I don't have internet, but all 3 of those I consider more arrogant than Llamarble, and all are comfortable as scum. Even then, he's still pretty damn scummy to me at this point.

Uh, yes, I believe he's trolling you.

But why does trolling = town?

Honestly, given the amount of strong town reads I have I think there's a great chance of them both being mafia ignoring any connection between them. With that said my biggest worry is that I get NKed tonight to watch the town eat itself alive. I really cannot stress enough how confident I am in Bub/Matias/Captain and Johhog being town and to a slightly lesser extent to you, CES and Benmage. If I do die I want this reads section requoted over and over again.

I don't think that mafia would've killed Reg if any of the first 4 were scum, but that's just me.

Sorry, I am new to this site.

Three days until deadline, and Socio still has what feels like a throwaway vote on Johhog. This is terrible.

Is that why the only Open game on your wiki was one you replaced into? And even then it was hardly vanilla like this game? You chose this game ... an open game... over Closed Normal and Almost Normal, but you barely ever play in Opens?

You're also telling me that, given your proclaimed Town loss stagnation, that your team felt confident enough to give you a town game, reliant on the sole aspect of scumhunting, ignoring your above average winrate as scum?

I'd like to follow up on this when internet returns, but yeah. I find this extraordinarily strange.

After reading this post in context and his answer to my original question I feel like Socio is likely town.

FATE PULLED THE EXACT SAME THING LAST YEAR
THE SAME THING
"Oh yeah, this is different, I'm changing my ways and becoming calmer and blah, blah, blah."
People picked up on it, and so they called him scum. Then he reverted to old Fate, and people found it town. So, Socio will troll until people pressure him, and then he will be the old, active, awesome Socio and he doesn't even explain how he stayed alive so long. Fuck that.

I really don't want to reward TSQ's play/lack of play by allowing him to get any deeper in the game, especially when there's a really good chance that it's scum motivated on his part. (To all those arguments that it makes him town. Fuck you.) To me, that's a lot worse than lynching anyone else who's actually bothered to contribute reasonably today.

Vote TSQ in 2012!

You don't want to reward TSQ's lack of play by allowing him to get deeper in the game? Could you explain that, please?

Would take a Benmage or Llamarble lynch failing that. Any other wagon is a meh/avoid no lynch wagon.

oh hey this looks kind of familiar.
are you ces?

UNFORTUNATELY I am going to have to do this earlier than I would have liked, but ALAS this is the last chance I have to vote.

Unvote
Vote: Amrun

I don't care about anyone's cases are theories on Amrun, those are all fine and dandy, but here is the REAL KICKER:

It's magic! Socio, who doesn't do shit the whole game, magically shows up to help lynch Amrun!
No one bats an eye. No one flinches.
God, it would really suck if he was scum. But no one would believe that, would they?

I look forward to it.

I'm also curious as to why Amrun was the only person SocioPath bothered voting yesterday.

Oh thank god.

Feels like you're holding back, and I don't like it at all.

"feels like you're holding back"
what
what what what what what

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CES

yeah, why not bub? it surprising me a bit you shot for llama and ces instead of the guy who was your strongest read yesterday.

I find singer's push on shea very townie. Extending yourself out so far, putting so much into getting a lynch on a lurker slot... no. I seriously doubt it.

Because TSQ was lazy scum.

But you're right, we can see how Nacho plays. Knowing Nacho though, I'm expecting more of the same.

And when I end up actually doing something, will you actually make a case, or will you just sheep CES to the bitter, bitter end?

CES. Rectify this statement in terms of what your teammates have stated within the last 4 hours with relation to this specific tell.

My vote is now even more justified the fact that you can come to different conclusions regarding the same topic.

Oversoul, cut this shit out.

I wasn't bragging. I literally know nothing else as scum and it inevitably leads to me getting caught.

Well, that's interesting because I feel that you've been lurking a fair bit yourself this game while putting pressure on two specific lurkers (Benmage, TSQ), while ignoring the really, really obvious one (SOCIOPATH). Do you disagree with this?

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. He's basically called 5 people town-prob town, none of which included one of the most obviously town players in the game (in fact, he attacked him in his post).

If you're referring to Zach, I literally have no idea where you're getting that townread on him from. Everything about him screams LYNCH IT WITH FIRE.

As far as who is scummy, I think that Socio guy is scummy as hell.
He has lurked all game, and hasn't provided much content. (if ANY real content)
Hasn't been helpful at all, hasn't been cooperative with the town and clear townies out there.
Still alive D2 despite being on the returning champion's team with all the insight and knowledge that goes with that.
Has said ONE WORD today so far, which only looks to have been said to dodge prods.

I'm sure someone can come up with a better case for this guy.
I think a wagon on him would be very beneficial at this point to see where everyone stands and why.

Anyone who has called him town is scummy as hell, that is for sure.

BUT ENOUGH ABOUT THAT.

Wow, the first thing you've said that I actually agree with. Nice!

Did SocioPath regurgitate a read from mid Day 1 that is 100% outdated, using it as a vote for early to mid Day 2?

..Socio, do you really have nothing else to say about anyone else?

Yup.

Sorry about not posting. I've been following the game, but I don't really have much to say when my number 1 scumread right now is lurking. Do you hear that Llmarble? Get the fuck in here.

You know that thing about there being more than one scum that you mentioned before?
It still applies. Post.

So, right now, my two scumpicks are Socio and Zach. Socio is scummy as fuck for intentionally lurking his way through the game for ALL of Day 1, and only starting now. Add to that the opportunistic L-1 vote onto Amrun, and I'm feeling pretty good about myself. I also think it's important to note that no one had a scumread on Socio yesterday. Absolutely no one. Town ignores him because he did really good last year and they're hoping for a replay, and scum ignores them because he's their best buddy. If he's town, congrats, he's gained another day, but if that were the case, he could have given the BARE MINIMUM yesterday, and nudged the town in subtle ways that almost certainly wouldn't have gotten him nightkilled.

Zach, on the other hand, has been living in CES's shadow the entire game. However, he doesn't have the no-case, push push push playstyle that CES does, and I really, really find it difficult to believe that his and CES's opinions haven't strayed a bit from one another the entire game. Contrast this with singer, who might agree with CES on a lot, still somewhat suspects him, and took a special interest in getting the TSQ lynch. Zach, none of that. Add to that the self-given meta about him liking town more than scum ("even more than singer does!") is suspicious as fuck. I think that he took scum for WIFOM purposes, so he wanted to make damn sure everyone knew about his preference. Then, let's actually look at what he's done. Tried to lynch TSQ for lurking, and tried to lynch Benmage because he feels like he's holding back. While doing nothing himself. And while ignoring Socio who is clearly and obviously holding back and lurking and not giving a fuck about lynching scum in the least bit.

Singer, Matias, CES, and Captain Oversoul are still town all the way.
Ben is still probably town, but I want the dragon to wake up pretty soon.
Bub and Johhog and Llamarble need to post more.
Bub or Llamarble would be backup scum, but it doesn't matter quite yet.

For now,

Vote: Zachrulez

Zach's the stronger read for now, but I'm sure once the elusive "try hard socio" appears and actually responds to my posts, I'll have a lot more to say about that.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll also ask yet again why SocioPath isn't scum, because to me his lurking was ten times worse than TSQ's lurking but despite this TSQ was the only one to get called out for it.

What do you think of Zach?

[Nachomamma8]

Yes.

[Nachomamma8]

If Regfan had 6 strong correct townreads, then he would defend him. Killing him gets suspicion thrown on me and llamarble, and it means that scum can safely push people in that pool of 6 without getting too much shit for it.

see: Sociopath.

[Nachomamma8]

Regfan having 6 strong correct town reads and his 3 top scum reads all being wrong would be one heck of a coincidence.

And if I weren't pushing it, there'd be no extra suspicion thrown on 'marble and you (and people are ignoring me when it comes to that too). Let's not pretend otherwise.

Fair enough.

Tammy says I am wrong about you because you two have offsite experience.

Do you have any opinion on Nachos bad vote on Zach?

why do you think zach is town?

All that love from Nacho and he can't even look me in the eyes.

Zach won't get lynched without my intervention. You will.

[Nachomamma8]

To come to this conclusion you would have had to ignore day 1 completely...

You ignoring Amrun wagon:
Your two posts regarding Amrun on the end of the day were: #640, saying that you couldn't find a reason in Johhog's ISO for voting Amrun, and #664, which said that you were depressed about the Amrun wagon and you were satisfied with Johhog's reasoning with voting Amrun. The last time you called her town was in #224. The rest was just conversation with her, no actual commenting on the wagon itself.

If your point was that getting lurkers lynched wasn't hard, then you're really wrong and I shouldn't have to back that up.

Whatever you say.

Your entire ISO was you saying TSQ was scummy, saying you had a weird feeling about Benmage, and a townread on Haddock and Amrun. That's the full extent of all of your 40-something posts before that, and that's not really providing shit for content in my opinion.

Made you laugh cause you're scum? The whole thing in context is a sensible inquiry man.

You asked how Ben found CES and TSQ scum together.
Ben said he didn't have an opinion on TSQ yet.
You quoted a reads list where he put CES, TSQ, Amrun, and Bub under "remainders" in red lettering.
He noted the "remainders".
But you couldn't take that because he colored them red. Not because he had townreads on everyone else and because there were not many of them there, but because they were in red.

You couldn't be trying to have it both ways on this issue could you? Nah...

I was pointing out that I disagreed with the logic although I still found Llama scummy. Regfan pointed out the same thing after Llamarble's post in #642:

See, while I can follow your logic here I also think after last year and given his meta or liking pure scumhunting I think he would take white flag REGARDLESS of the role that his team had in it thereby nullifiying this entire line of logic or reasoning. Though I do think his play alone is scummy.

Hey, we've both been laying similar pushes on TSQ, so it should be entertaining to hear from you how you came to different conclusions regarding us. Don't worry, I have popcorn ready.

Spoiler: side by side

singer:

Has Shea posted yet?

Nope?

confirm vote: Thestatusquo

Zach:

Has Shea posted yet?

Nope?

confirm vote: Thestatusquo

Sure he has, if you're counting posts that aren't being made in this game.

Unvote: Vote: Thestatusquo

singer:

Gawdfuckingdamnit.

I'm doing the additions of thoughts to my previous post of quotes as we speak.

Shea's still scumscumscum. Notice how he came back to the game RIGHT as another wagon took off. Convenient. Also, his vote on CES is and he's only reading Amrun as town to discourage her from hoping on his wagon.

In the words of Team Skittles: KILL IT, KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Zach:

It's time for TSQ to burn.

How much more lurking do you need?

singer:

This is the only post in your ISO that DOESN'T have to do with you (minus one calling Amrun town?). Why is defending yourself the only important thing, when, as you say, you're not even "up on the chopping block" as far as you're concerned. If you don't think you're going to be lynched, then why is most of your attention on yourself?

See, the problem is no long that you're lurking, but that you're not contributing while insisting that you are, only concerned with yourself while claiming that you're posting "content," and repeating the same arguments...probably to make it look like you're posting more content than you are.

I'd really like you to address the questions that have been posed to you thus far, Shea, because I see you decided they were worth skipping.

Zach:

On TSQ's town reads. They are exclusively on people who were on the fence with him annoyed with his lurking, but not sure if it made him scum. I think that's all that needs to be said there.

singer:

Basically it comes down to this: Shea just said that the lurking case on his was bullshit, and now that he was around and posting, he should be lynched because of lurking...but the only things he was posting AT THAT TIME were defenses of his lack of lurking. It's a twisted circle, and I haven't seen him provide anything that's worthy of labeling as "content."

Zach:

I really don't want to reward TSQ's play/lack of play by allowing him to get any deeper in the game, especially when there's a really good chance that it's scum motivated on his part. (To all those arguments that it makes him town. Fuck you.) To me, that's a lot worse than lynching anyone else who's actually bothered to contribute reasonably today.

Vote TSQ in 2012!

singer:

I'm tired of empty promises from Shea. He promised his catch up analysis last night and what did he do for hours instead? JUST GUESS.

I was willing to be patient, but enough's enough.

vote: Thestatusquo

Zach:

I'm with you in spirit, but at the moment I am suffering from I only have one voteitus.

singer:

If you wanna play that game, can you simultaneously talk your mother out of kicking your brother out of the house and be in scumchat talking about this girl who won't get back to you about an "adventure" you were planning on taking her on THE NIGHT YOU PROMISE A CATCH UP ANALYSIS. No. You made a fucking commitment. Don't talk about "my mother this" while you plan a date the same night you promised content. Or were you planning on simultaneously doing those things together as well?

Fucking-A. All we wanted was an excuse, an explanation, something, anything, to offer up why you received three prods D1, why you didn't deliver last night, why you didn't replace out sooner. But you continue you waste our time, talk in circles, No, he overstepped his welcome. Sorry replacement, you can feel free to blame Shea for not even giving you a chance to pretend you're town.

Zach:

Or she's frustrated because she actually believes he (and his slot) are scum and can't get him lynched.

The main point against TSQ is that in showing as much site activity as he has, he clearly has time for this game and is choosing/chose not to participate in it. The real life issues he claims to have aren't relevant, the choice is.

So, in short, singer actually believed that TSQ was scum, made an effort to come up with new reasons as to why TSQ was scum, kept pushing the wagon the next day, and actually responded to him when he posted.
You parked your vote on him, brought the "he's not here but posting elsewhere" reason all the way to the bank, and dropped it after his wagon wouldn't work the first time.

There's a big difference.

Why does the idea of me sheeping CES bother you so? WHY?

you can sheep people, that's cool.
as long as you do something except for sheep them.
and all you do is sheep. that's it.

Me lurking? Are you serious? I think I'm going to have to laugh now.

Active lurking. Making a lot of posts, not really saying shit.
Also, why did you pressure Ben and TSQ while ignoring Socio completely?

You're well over the limit of mentioning how scummy socio is without doing anything about it at this point. WAY OVER THE LIMIT.

Sorry, I only have one vote. Socio doesn't shit all over the thread quite as much as you do.

Cool your narrative on Socio makes way more sense than your narrative on me... yet...

My narrative on you being scum makes less sense than my narrative on my other scumsuspect. Imagine that.

So I'm scum for WIFOM purposes? WOW.

That's not all I wrote, now was it?

There's literally no way Nacho comes to the conclusions he has if he's actually legitimately trying to read me. HIS case is literally I chose scum for WIFOM reasons. Cut through all the bullshit, and that's what it is.

because you doing nothing but sheeping CES is you choosing scum for WIFOM reasons
not doing shit while attackers others is you choosing scum for WIFOM reasons
you attacking TSQ and Benmage while ignoring obvious lurker Socio is you choosing scum for WIFOM reasons
seriously, how is this all you got out of my case on you?

[Nachomamma8]

Also on the OMGUS issue, I was voting TSQ most of the first day phase, and I haven't backed off on calling the slot scum... so OMGUS... right.

Seriously Bub... if you are town here, this is why you lose games.

welp, Bub's town.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho's activity level looks high compared to Nacho scum.
I like his catch up.
I think CES is a good chunk more likely to be scum than Zach though.
VOTE: CES

I'm going to look at Amrun's wagon though. CES wasn't on it.

Also last year I killed IPie Because he was obvtown and wrongly listed me as town and I didn't want to give him a chance to change his mind. There are a lot of possible reasons for Regfan to die and I'm going to reread his / Amrun's arguments.

Last time you tried this, you didn't get CES lynched.
What new things are you bringing to the table?

[Nachomamma8]

Because SHEA'S lurking was SCUMMY. Socio wasn't ignored by any means, and he certainly was called scummy for it a couple times. I just believe that Socio had town motivation for doing so, and Shea had scum motivation for doing so (which I've pointed out several times).

but. he's. still. lurking.
and now he's attacking obvtown Matias, for no apparent reason.
How long will you let that go on? Until LyLo, when he kicks it into high gear? Fuck that.

This is shit. There was suspicion on BOTH of you from the start of D1, and as far as I can see, no one's even attributed the suspicion on the two of you today as being a result of the night kill (please correct me if I missed something). Sluffing off the suspicion on you to the night kill is 100% wrong.

That was my response to CES asking why I thought scum would kill Reg if me and Llama were both town. I wasn't blaming the suspicion on the night kill at all.

Also, also, Nacho, I'd like to know what you think of the CES wagon.

It sucks. Llama is probably scum on it.

How does Zach's alignment come into this, exactly?

He was making up bullshit reasoning in order to make Ben look like a liar after he said he didn't call TSQ scum. I find that scummy.

How far along with your read through are you?

I'm done.

He lurked as scum and postured when he did rarely post which caused others in the town to suspect him. He stated he finds being scum stressful which is something he didn't like.

What game was this?

This is faulty logic and continues on the path of no one really explaining why Bub is town.

Are you basing this comment on the fact that you think Zach is scum?

The quickest way to a man's heart is following his vote.
Bub is town for other reasons, though.

[Nachomamma8]

Why do you think that I'm scum?

[Nachomamma8]

You pretty much acknowledged that there were problems with what benmage was saying and stated that your problem was with what he chose to focus on (i.e. red text) which doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that'd be dependent on alignment.

There was a problem with Benmage's post. It wasn't the red text. It had nothing to do with red text. It's like saying a post is scummy because the grammar is wrong: the post might still be scummy, but the reasoning is blatantly wrong.

It's scummy that I'm confused about why he listed TSQ in red in a color coded reads list when he insisted (later) that wasn't what he was doing?

If that post had never been called into question, would you have interpreted TSQ in red as being anything BUT a scumread? (The issue here is vagueness in reads, not Benmage being a "liar.")

I'm having a really hard time seeing this line of attack coming from a town perspective.

He insisted later that TSQ wasn't a scumread, not that he didn't color TSQ's name red.
If that post had never been called into question, then I would have interpreted TSQ in red UNDER THE TITLE REMAINDERS as not a townread.

I gotta say that I agree with Zach on this one.

Unlike him I do however think that Ben denying this makes him scummy as he's trying to avoid responsibility for his TSQ-read.

So you'd have no problem with Ben's post if it wasn't color-coded?

[Nachomamma8]

Also on the OMGUS issue, I was voting TSQ most of the first day phase, and I haven't backed off on calling the slot scum... so OMGUS... right.

Seriously Bub... if you are town here, this is why you lose games.

welp, Bub's town.

This is faulty logic and continues on the path of no one really explaining why Bub is town.

Are you basing this comment on the fact that you think Zach is scum?

I think he's trying to say it's a scum slip on my part.

I already gave my reasoning to this.
Why did you ignore it?
Wait, that's all you've been doing with my posts. Right.

[Nachomamma8]

For Zach:

Why do you think that I'm scum?

Why do you think that I'm scum?

Why do you think that I'm scum?

Why do you think that I'm scum?

Why do you think that I'm scum?

[Nachomamma8]

He insisted later that TSQ wasn't a scumread, not that he didn't color TSQ's name red.
If that post had never been called into question, then I would have interpreted TSQ in red UNDER THE TITLE REMAINDERS as not a townread.

Ah huh.

Also I'm deliberately not answering 948. (A read of my play clearly answers the question already.)

so basically
TSQ and because you can't see how anyone could attack you from a town perspective?

[Nachomamma8]

He insisted later that TSQ wasn't a scumread, not that he didn't color TSQ's name red.
If that post had never been called into question, then I would have interpreted TSQ in red UNDER THE TITLE REMAINDERS as not a townread.

Ah huh.

Also I'm deliberately not answering 948. (A read of my play clearly answers the question already.)

so basically
TSQ and because you can't see how anyone could attack you from a town perspective?

Because your points against me are just utter crap that scream of scum looking to mislynch a player that any reasonable person would read as town. (Kinda like Amrun yesterday.)

(then why didn't you attack anyone on Amrun's wagon yesterday...?)

[Nachomamma8]

I'm saying I expect him to do something productive in the meantime, or have a read that changes ever.
His D2 play is pretty much sitting his vote on me and arguing that the NK points to me.

This is wrong.
If I were you, I would get to catching up and stop talking about things you clearly haven't read.

For the record, Zach was not the only one who disagreed with the Amrun wagon, nor was he the only one to express its shittiness.

He didn't express its shittiness yesterday.

This whole argument re: Benmage coloring Shea in red when everyone else in red was a scum read and then claiming to never say/think Shea was scum is ridiculous. No he did not EXPLICITLY SAY that those in red were scum, but any reasonable person would assume that's what he was talking about when everyone else was mild-null scum. I could be convinced to move to Benmage today.

Three scumreads, lurker as backup.
That doesn't mean he should be forced to justify lurker and scumsuspect A as scum together.

[Nachomamma8]

Thank you, that was basically my ENTIRE problem with it. Nacho's trying to turn it into me saying Benmage lied about putting the name in red or something stupid so that the entire context of the argument gets lost and makes it easier for him to paint me as scum.

I don't think it's fair to say I'm ignoring the entire context of the argument.

You asked how Ben found CES and TSQ scum together.
Ben said he didn't have an opinion on TSQ yet.
You quoted a reads list where he put CES, TSQ, Amrun, and Bub under "remainders" in red lettering.
He noted the "remainders".
But you couldn't take that because he colored them red. Not because he had townreads on everyone else and because there were not many of them there, but because they were in red.

[Nachomamma8]

Zach, do you have recent scum meta of you as a lone wolf?

[Nachomamma8]

Zach, do you have recent scum meta of you as a lone wolf?

Please stop intentionally or unintentionally ignoring my questions.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho can wait til tomorrow even though I'm grumpy that this slot is getting away yet again.

Do you find me scum because I'm voting Zach?

even though I thoroughly disagree

Just because he was the first to bring up Shea was posting elsewhere?

Also, regardless of which games you looked at exactly, I'm pretty sure my play this game would compare positively to scum games of mine from a year back.

Wait, why?

which pretty much confirms me as town simply because I don't play off the top of my head as scum when I don't recall something clearly. When I'm scum, I am very good at reconstructing a clear thought process behind everything.

Would you self-meta as scum?

Can I get some more Benmage votes or responses?

Why Benmage and not Socio?

[Nachomamma8]

Zach, do you have recent scum meta of you as a lone wolf?

Please stop intentionally or unintentionally ignoring my questions.

What does this mean? A game where I was the only remaining scum? You'd have to go WAY back if that's what you're asking.

Where you were scum as Zachrulez, and not hydraing with Sotty.

[Nachomamma8]

P.S. the notion that MoS being on benmage's team is somehow incongruous with him being useless is nonsensical. And the person I'd most expect to care would be benmage if he were scum.

Thank you. Anyone worth 2 cents should have written me down as conftown long ago.

That said, quite comical I get some votes after promising to get my act together this weekend.

The deadline is Sunday, June 3, 2012, at 7:08 PM EDT (UTC-4).

[Nachomamma8]

YEAH. I'm awesome in those town games.

And 100X more awesome in those scum games. WTF. Those scum games. Confmetown.

Okay, I'm literally just tired of reading this crap.

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Llamarble, while still defending himself in the same "oh yeah, this is my town meta" bullshit way, is at least doing something. You aren't.

[Nachomamma8]

It's no fun if you make your partnership that obvious, nacho...

If you can give me one reason why Benmage is town that's not "oh, he'd do better as scum", I will switch my vote here and now.
But it frustrates me that you are writing him off because he cares about scum more and he's not doing anything here. This is Team Mafia. This is a place for people to prove themselves, and I seriously, seriously doubt that Benmage would just throw the game away like this. In the Scummies Winvitational, Benmage pulled out all of the stops to secure a win because he loved the challenge and he knew he could pull it off, and I don't think that his performance would be so ridiculously different in a similar game. So, he's doing it for a reason. And he's making that reason abundantly clear.

I'm noticing a distinct avoidance of the llamarble wagon from very distinct people. Nacho, why is that the one post that's causing you to change your vote from Zach? What about his posting makes Benmage scum? Why does llamarble "doing something" make him less scum than someone who's not around/posting crap? Does that make Socio scum for the same reasons?

It's not one post, it's all of his recent posts. He's not posting anything at all. He's just throwing down the self-meta card over and over again, and acting like he just can't believe it when we don't buy the bullshit. That's not town posting. At all.

Llamarble doing shit, cool. That's wonderful. He's been thinking, he's been scumhunting, and he's working to get the wagon off him as opposed to just sitting there and saying "oh, I would never do this as scum in a million years, so get off me now." Also, I don't really think Llamarble would have to kill Regfan if he were scum (CES), and the shallow scumhunting charge is kind of shitty. Why do you think he's scum?

[Nachomamma8]

CES, who's your third pick right now?

[Nachomamma8]

If you can give me one reason why Benmage is town that's not "oh, he'd do better as scum", I will switch my vote here and now.

offer still stands, CES.

[Nachomamma8]

If you can give me one reason why Benmage is town that's not "oh, he'd do better as scum", I will switch my vote here and now.

offer still stands, CES.

Llamarble doesn't look like he's bussing, natch.

He most certainly doesn't. This doesn't help me though.

[Nachomamma8]

LLD is focusing on other things than mafia right now. My QT has quieted down a bit and we're mostly playing our own games while doing our best to sanity check each others' lynches.

LLD isn't focusing on mafia right now?
That's not actually true, you know.

[Nachomamma8]

Have you considered just blindly sheeping Regfan, Nacho? He's pretty okay at this game.

Sometimes. Only problem is I really don't like self-voting

[Nachomamma8]

I've always found lurking as scum horrrible.

i've always found lurking as town horrible
try again

[Nachomamma8]

The notion that Regfan'd get nightkilled while being wrong about all of you, Llamarble and benmage is silly, Nacho.

ooor

[Nachomamma8]

It means scum killed Regfan for different reasons.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know. I can see that the scumkill makes sense from Llama's perspective. But if you're killing Reg for his reads, why kill him if he's right about 1/3?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Sociopath

This needs to happen now. At the end of the day, where was Sociopath? Alone on Bub, with no real explanation. Where is Sociopath today? Sitting on Matias, with no real explanation. Part of winning Team Mafia is being a presence in-game, and Sociopath hasn't done that in the least bit. If he's scum, though, he hasn't really been forced to take any strong positions on wagons (he ignored the entire Ben-Llama debate yesterday). I'm pretty sure this the first vote he's gotten. All in all, he hasn't done shit and he's still getting away with it.

[Nachomamma8]

If you go back to Nacho's vote at the end of day 2, Llamarble was at 4 votes at the time and Benmage was at 3. He opts to vote for Benmage despite his previous suspicion of me and the fact that I happened to be on that wagon... yeeeeeeeeeeah...

You were on the Llamarble wagon first, and you stayed there longer. Benmage was also acting a hell of a lot scummier than Llama the entire time.

Sociopath has no excuse to continue playing the way he's been playing since the next scum lynch is a town win, if he doesn't pick it up at this point he's an acceptable lynch as well.

He still hasn't picked it up. Are you still going to let it slide?

I mean this isn't exactly rocket science. CES' next suspect was clearly going to be Nacho. Now that CES is dead, all you need to do is take a look at how likely it is that the remaining players in the game are to actually lynch Nacho. (As opposed to simply leaving CES and his influence alive if Nacho was town.)

I think you can do better than this is finding reasons to lynch me.

As if I wasn't going to push Nacho... I'm insulted...

Vote: Nachomamma8

No repeat case necessary. I have a 3 hour plane ride coming up and I'd like to see a lynch by the time I get back. Comeon now, people. Chop, chop.

No repeat case? What was the original?

Glad I'm conftown now... though wrong on both CES and llama

...

This confirmed townie thing is annoying because it already gets used way more often than it actually applies in non mountainous setups as it is. But this discussion isn't going to help us find scum either... so...

Right, I agree. I'm defending my position, is all.

I'm waiting on Socio to come back.

Why?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nacho

Fine

Do you not have a case either?

[Nachomamma8]

This is adorable.
And wrong.

Why do you think Bub is scum? Why do you think Matias is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Your reasoning for Bub is because you love 884, and your reasoning for Matias being scum is because he encourages suspicion without encouraging suspicion himself, even though he already said that he found Haddock scummy and then later voted him?

Just making sure.

[Nachomamma8]

It was interesting to watch Nacho try the White Flag gambit with a town that was clearly not going to have any of it.

The White Flag gambit?
You mean the not get lynched gambit?