TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Bub Bidderskins]

vote: CES

1. Bandwagon inflation
2. Not doing anything to try and get of RVS

Discuss.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Trying to remain in a state of zero information is pro-town?

[Bub Bidderskins]

He was the fourth on the bandwagon, which is my breaking point for "bandwagon inflation". But more importantly, he made a comment that did not further any discussion at all and was kind of pointless. Other people either just voted or came up with a silly reason for voting. You asked Singer a valid meta-related question. CES just made a silly comment on the game itself that served no purpose.

[Bub Bidderskins]

woo*

Townpoints 'cause she didn't gather all her thoughts together before posting.

He was the fourth on the bandwagon, which is my breaking point for "bandwagon inflation". But more importantly, he made a comment that did not further any discussion at all and was kind of pointless. Other people either just voted or came up with a silly reason for voting. You asked Singer a valid meta-related question. CES just made a silly comment on the game itself that served no purpose.

Townpoints for scumhunting.

CES' first post comes off as null to me.

Bub's post and response strike me as townish.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Townpoints because I agree with this. CES plays the early game a pretty similar way most of the time and is tricky to read because of it.

4 votes on a player in a game where 7 is needed for lynch is still fine with me, heck I would even call it pro-town. As to your second point no real comment, but I view it as null.

Townpoints for 'heck' bit.

VOTE: Benmage

Why are you voting for Benmage?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Llamarble, why are you voting benmage?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Do you read Benmage as town?

I've got a null read on him at the moment. I'm just curious as to why Llamarble would switch his vote without any explanation or follow-up pressure whatsoever.

[Bub Bidderskins]

vote: CES

1. Bandwagon inflation
2. Not doing anything to try and get of RVS

Discuss.

How is 1 not accomplishing 2? This is an illogical argument. Bub's probably town for it, though.

It should have read "not doing anything

additional

to try and get of RVS". By hopping on the bandwagon and not trying to do anything else to try and get out of the RVS, CES was taking the path of least resistance.

Matias saying that Llamarble was a likely RVS wagon given last year's performance seems kind of pointless to me. I didn't participate in Team Mafia last year, so I can't speak to its truth, but if its true it doesn't seem like it accomplishes anything to me, but I can't really tell if its coming from scum or not.

Zach also seems town to me. He made relevant questions very early on to me and singer, and since then has been scumhunting.

I feel like everyone should have volunteered this information, yes, but since it was never made a point of, I don't feel like the people who did not are scummy, especially considering they're mostly newbies to team mafia.

Consider this me asking everyone why they chose this game.

So you think scum Matias would purposely draw attention to himself? Why?

And can you show me where you think he's tooting his own horn? I don't see that.

I like very vanilla setups. Themes and roles and crap bust my balls.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Matias, I've got a question: what was the point of bringing up the "Llamarble will get RVS wagoned" thing?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Just now, or when I brought it up in the first place?

Both.

Oh, and in my QT CooLDoG thinks that Zach looks like town. But he also thinks that Zach is she, so take that where you will .

[Bub Bidderskins]

Holy shit, I went through this entire game so far without realizing that Matias was actually Demon Hybrid.

Speaking of which, after Matias explained his logic to me, his early game actions make a lot more sense. Yeah, he was grasping at straws if he hoped to get any scum suspects, but it was the RVS, and those straws were scum. For that I think he's likely town.

Also, Amrun brought up an intersting thing about Haddock:

I think Matias tried to encourage suspicion of me without comitting himself and he's asked for opinions without giving any.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

This is what I'm talking about. Not "early at all"! "After 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon" , like that was anything other than 3 rvs votes on the same person.

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

I missed this completely, but now that I look back on it, Haddock's actions seem really scummy. In context, it seems like a very weird thing for him to say, like he perceived even slightest thing to be a threat. I don't like it.

unvote; vote: Captain Haddock

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub has a history of making illogical arguments as town.

That's more true than I'd like .

Llamarble, why does your QT think Zach is scum? I've got a pretty strong town read on him.

Oh, and CooLDoG wants everybody to stop using bullshit meta on last years game .

[Bub Bidderskins]

I think Matias tried to encourage suspicion of me without comitting himself and he's asked for opinions without giving any.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

This is what I'm talking about. Not "early at all"! "After 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon" , like that was anything other than 3 rvs votes on the same person.

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

I missed this completely, but now that I look back on it, Haddock's actions seem really scummy. In context, it seems like a very weird thing for him to say, like he perceived even slightest thing to be a threat. I don't like it.

unvote; vote: Captain Haddock

Subtle encouragement to vote me but no attack and voting someone else is no threat at all. Your logic applies more to Matias, as he took no issue with my reasons for voting him(ignored my case) but voted me. You and Amrun should be voting him.

No I shouldn't be voting for Mat. Why? Because he didn't perceive a non-existent threat. I'm not sure if you understand the case against you. I'm voting you because you thought there was some sort of threat against you in Matias' posting when there wasn't anything of the sort. That is self-centered scum play IMO.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Isa claims that he complained multiple times about the White Flag setup in the chat. Why would you lie Regfan?

And yeah, I want some firm reasons as to why I'm scum because I see next to none reasons even though several people read me as such.

FoS: Johhog

Fishing around for views on self instead of scum. This most is mainly just a defense asking for reasons why people think he's scum. Also, Johhog's vote has been parked on Benmage long passed its welcome. He's given no follow up pressure or reasoning behind his vote that I can see. His posts have mainly been weak questions without follow up or anything.

[Bub Bidderskins]

The quantity is not the issue, its the quality. You've spent a ton of time either defending yourself or talking about irrelevant things but zero time trying to find scum or pressuring the person that you are actually voting for.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm not voting for somebody who hasn't posted this early. Socio, what are your thoughts on Haddock and Jahudo?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Also, Myo says that TSQ doesn't have a lurking meta as scum, and that he generally comes off as nice and likeable as scum.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Socio, what are your thoughts on Haddock

Looking at him isn't as important as looking at his wagon.
He is much finer than those that vote him.

and Jahudo?

Johhog

, the way he responds to poking is going to be the determining factor here.

I just realized that

And who on his wagon looks interesting to you? Come on Socio, get in the game here.

I really can't read Amrun, so I'm asking my QT for help. I relay that info back, but either way I think Haddock and Amrun are not scum together. Amrun started the whole wagon on Haddock. I don't see scum doing that on a buddy.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Haddock, what does your QT think about your reads?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Isa claims that he complained multiple times about the White Flag setup in the chat. Why would you lie Regfan?

And yeah, I want some firm reasons as to why I'm scum because I see next to none reasons even though several people read me as such.

FoS: Johhog

Fishing around for views on self instead of scum. This most is mainly just a defense asking for reasons why people think he's scum. Also, Johhog's vote has been parked on Benmage long passed its welcome. He's given no follow up pressure or reasoning behind his vote that I can see. His posts have mainly been weak questions without follow up or anything.

I agree with all of this post. But I still think Johhog's town.

Why?

Also, I'm re-reading Haddock right now, since others have stated townreads on him, I want to go back and re-evaluate my own opinion. Expect a wall soonish.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I think Matias tried to encourage suspicion of me without comitting himself and he's asked for opinions without giving any.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

This is what I'm talking about. Not "early at all"! "After 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon" , like that was anything other than 3 rvs votes on the same person.

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

This is the post that initially made me think Haddock was scum. Amrun pointed this out first, and then I read it again. I still don't like it. Haddock seems to jump at a shadow really. Matias wasn't even making a point about Haddock so much as zach. This looks like scum jumpiness, but it could be a misunderstanding as town. It's still scummy, though.

One other note, this is the first vote on Matias. Haddock isn't going with the flow, he's essentially starting the wagon on Matias.

His next to posts have little relevance, but then he posts this:

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

...I was actually analyzing Zach, but okay.

I know what you meant now but saying "early bandwagoning is scummy" isn't bandwagon analysis, what was your reason besides that? Because he wasn't the only one to do it.

What are your thoughts on CES, Haddock?

Quite towny.

VOTE: Captain Haddock

Nope.

43 started off artificial and followed up with "you are wrong so I get to vote you"

Why do you think it's artificial? I'm not voting him for being wrong, I don't think describing the 6th post "as not early at all" is geniune and the rvs "bandwagon" doesn't explain that to me. I'm voting him because I think he was trying make me suspicius and he was testing the waters.

I think Matias tried to encourage suspicion of me without comitting himself and he's asked for opinions without giving any.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

This is what I'm talking about. Not "early at all"! "After 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon" , like that was anything other than 3 rvs votes on the same person.

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

Your post is terrible. NO, Encouraging suspicion of a player you won't even vote is scummy. Matias didn't exactly use neutral language and he was telling Zach his logic meant he should suspect me. But since then he said I was scummy for voting him.

"Haddock voted him to lash out at a threat" is dumb, the thing to do as scum would be ignore him and let him vote someone else(which he did). But I'm town and I want him lynched.


Matias was testing the waters at the start, he didn't even give a scum suspect but asked for multiple reads. His first vote was the only real wagon(rvs doesn't count), and now he's hopped onto me. He hasn't given any reasons for voting me either he just wants to vote with everyone else, he doesn't want to try and get a suspect lynched, just bandwagon.

Let's break that up:

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

...I was actually analyzing Zach, but okay.

I know what you meant now but saying "early bandwagoning is scummy" isn't bandwagon analysis, what was your reason besides that? Because he wasn't the only one to do it.

Here, Haddock misunderstands Matias' point again. Zach said that early bandwagoning is townie. Matias asked zach what zach's thoughts were on Haddock, because Haddock was bandwagoning, too. Zach said it was too early, Matias didn't think so. There is no indication there that Matias was targeting Haddock, but Haddock still interpreted it as a threat. He also points to other people bandwagoning early.

What are your thoughts on CES, Haddock?

Quite towny.

Hmmm, before that, this happened:

VOTE: Captain Haddock

Nope.

FoS: Matias

And then he defended his "nope" here:

and followed up with "you are wrong so I get to vote you"

Pretty sure that's an artifact of spatial proximity instead of something Captain Haddock actually did.

P.S. My FoS in #56 is more general than implied.

CES defends Haddock and weakly supports Haddock's favorite bandwagon

without actually getting on it

(CES voted after Haddock's 43, but before Haddock's post that I'm quoting now). I smell a scumteam.

VOTE: Captain Haddock

Nope.

43 started off artificial and followed up with "you are wrong so I get to vote you"

Why do you think it's artificial? I'm not voting him for being wrong, I don't think describing the 6th post "as not early at all" is geniune and the rvs "bandwagon" doesn't explain that to me. I'm voting him because I think he was trying make me suspicius and he was testing the waters.

Confirm vote: Captain Haddock

Why in the hell did he feel the need to defend CES's argument? Because CES is his partner, that's why. He jumped in and gave a justification for CES' post.

Right now I'm going to break off the wall because I realize it's getting absurdly long, and I personally hate walls. However, I will say this: I think Haddock is scum now more than ever before. When I did this re-read, I thought I would find reasons for Haddock being town, in fact that was the whole purpose of this re-read. However, I've only found more individual evidence to support Haddock scum, and quite a bit of evidence to support a Haddock/CES scumteam. I haven't finished yet, but for now I've very happy with my vote on Haddock.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, picking up where I left off with this post:

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

...I was actually analyzing Zach, but okay.

I know what you meant now but saying "early bandwagoning is scummy" isn't bandwagon analysis, what was your reason besides that? Because he wasn't the only one to do it.

What are your thoughts on CES, Haddock?

Quite towny.

VOTE: Captain Haddock

Nope.

43 started off artificial and followed up with "you are wrong so I get to vote you"

Why do you think it's artificial? I'm not voting him for being wrong, I don't think describing the 6th post "as not early at all" is geniune and the rvs "bandwagon" doesn't explain that to me. I'm voting him because I think he was trying make me suspicius and he was testing the waters.

I think Matias tried to encourage suspicion of me without comitting himself and he's asked for opinions without giving any.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

This is what I'm talking about. Not "early at all"! "After 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon" , like that was anything other than 3 rvs votes on the same person.

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

Your post is terrible. NO, Encouraging suspicion of a player you won't even vote is scummy. Matias didn't exactly use neutral language and he was telling Zach his logic meant he should suspect me. But since then he said I was scummy for voting him.

"Haddock voted him to lash out at a threat" is dumb, the thing to do as scum would be ignore him and let him vote someone else(which he did). But I'm town and I want him lynched.


Matias was testing the waters at the start, he didn't even give a scum suspect but asked for multiple reads. His first vote was the only real wagon(rvs doesn't count), and now he's hopped onto me. He hasn't given any reasons for voting me either he just wants to vote with everyone else, he doesn't want to try and get a suspect lynched, just bandwagon.

I've already run through the first 3/4's of this post, so let me finish off:

I think Matias tried to encourage suspicion of me without comitting himself and he's asked for opinions without giving any.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

This is what I'm talking about. Not "early at all"! "After 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon" , like that was anything other than 3 rvs votes on the same person.

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

Your post is terrible. NO, Encouraging suspicion of a player you won't even vote is scummy. Matias didn't exactly use neutral language and he was telling Zach his logic meant he should suspect me. But since then he said I was scummy for voting him.

"Haddock voted him to lash out at a threat" is dumb, the thing to do as scum would be ignore him and let him vote someone else(which he did). But I'm town and I want him lynched.


Matias was testing the waters at the start, he didn't even give a scum suspect but asked for multiple reads. His first vote was the only real wagon(rvs doesn't count), and now he's hopped onto me. He hasn't given any reasons for voting me either he just wants to vote with everyone else, he doesn't want to try and get a suspect lynched, just bandwagon.

Sorry if the re-quoting annoys you, but I think its important to provide context while focusing in a particular part of a post. Anyway, this post again completely misunderstands both Matias and Amrun's points. Again, he thinks that Matias' posting was a veiled threat, while it clearly wasn't. He then light OMGUS' Amrun by saying that her post is bad. He also said that Matias hopped on to him, and that was part of Matias' initial "threat", which is silly. Next post:

I think Matias tried to encourage suspicion of me without comitting himself and he's asked for opinions without giving any.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

This is what I'm talking about. Not "early at all"! "After 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon" , like that was anything other than 3 rvs votes on the same person.

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

I missed this completely, but now that I look back on it, Haddock's actions seem really scummy. In context, it seems like a very weird thing for him to say, like he perceived even slightest thing to be a threat. I don't like it.

unvote; vote: Captain Haddock

Subtle encouragement to vote me but no attack and voting someone else is no threat at all. Your logic applies more to Matias, as he took no issue with my reasons for voting him(ignored my case) but voted me. You and Amrun should be voting him.

Oh God, quotes within quotes within quotes. This is the fucking inception of quote pyramids. But its also another example of Haddock digging deeper. He says that the "veiled threat" is scummy, and then gives as evidence the fact that Matias voted for him later. Clearly Matias' vote was in response to my (really Amrun's) point that Haddock was perceiving evils that weren't there. Its circular logic and hard to explain, so let me put it in easy to read format:

Zachrules: I think early bandwagoning is townie.

Matias: What do you think of Haddock; he bandwagoned early.

Zachrules: Meh, too early to be anything.

Matias: He was the third vote, that doesn't seem too early.

Haddock: OMG! He's trying to attack me, [votes Matias]

Amrun: Wow, that was scummy Haddock.

Me: Amrun's right.

Matias: Yeah

Haddock: See, Matias wants me dead!

Damn that looks prettier without a massive quote pyramid .

Meanwhile, CES votes for an easy lurker target:

Unvote, vote: shea

And yes, that is literally his entire post.

I'm putting another break in this wall since Haddock's next post is quite large.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm too sure Matias is scum to lurker lynch and the case on Johnhog is a lot weaker than Matias'. I'm sure Johnhog could've sheeped everyone like Matias if he wanted too.

Llamamrble, why haven't you said anything about me since post 57?

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

I missed this completely, but now that I look back on it, Haddock's actions seem really scummy. In context, it seems like a very weird thing for him to say, like he perceived even slightest thing to be a threat. I don't like it.

unvote; vote: Captain Haddock

Subtle encouragement to vote me but no attack and voting someone else is no threat at all. Your logic applies more to Matias, as he took no issue with my reasons for voting him(ignored my case) but voted me. You and Amrun should be voting him.

No I shouldn't be voting for Mat. Why? Because he didn't perceive a non-existent threat. I'm not sure if you understand the case against you. I'm voting you because you thought there was some sort of threat against you in Matias' posting when there wasn't anything of the sort. That is self-centered scum play IMO.

Matias obviously wasn't even going to call me scum because no one was interested so there was no threat at all! If you meant that I thought he was trying to encourage suspicion on me, yes and that's scummy if he would rather have no vote and not give an opinion till he found out how much support there would be. Since when did scum push people they percieve a threat rather than people they can lynch?

NO, Encouraging suspicion of a player you won't even vote is scummy.

It's not at all, actually. You think everyone is limited to one scum read per day and can only discuss the person they are voting? No.

He wasn't calling me a suspect, he gave no opinion of me. Why are you using the word scum read when he prefered having no vote to voting me? That question is misreping and loaded.

Haddock, I posted at least once of every thing in this game that you said I was lacking.

An empty "ur wrong"... Matias I don't care if you think you've corrected you play. If there was anything wrong with my reasons you could explain straight away.

Me voting him is no reason to vote me unless he hates the reasons, or is scum OMGUSing.

Or rather, things that you think doesn't make sense were explained. Final soon, I'll get more indepth later.

Open question: Does TSQ have meta on lurking as scum?

He explained nothing. If you have the time try and read our ISO's quickly side by side. This is a lie and he needs to hang for it alone. "I'll get more indepth later because I'm busy", 4 hours later he posts, it's not hard to be more indepth than this.

I should post a read list too. Ask if you have questions.

Singer
Regfan
Amrun
Llamarble
Socio
Bub
Zach
Johhog
Benmage
Haddock
CES

TSQ hasn't posted yet

I wonder if it's a coincidence that all the bandwagoned players are at the bottom?


Did anyone notice the size of my wagon? It makes me more sure I've caught scum.

Again, breaking that up:

I'm too sure Matias is scum to lurker lynch and the case on Johnhog is a lot weaker than Matias'. I'm sure Johnhog could've sheeped everyone like Matias if he wanted too.

Llamamrble, why haven't you said anything about me since post 57?

Dismisses a case on Johhog. Individually, I do have a scumread on Johhog, so this could show more buddying, but IMHO the CES/Haddock link is much stronger. Also, note how self centered he is, asking other players for reads on himself. Scum want to know where they stand with the town.

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

I missed this completely, but now that I look back on it, Haddock's actions seem really scummy. In context, it seems like a very weird thing for him to say, like he perceived even slightest thing to be a threat. I don't like it.

unvote; vote: Captain Haddock

Subtle encouragement to vote me but no attack and voting someone else is no threat at all. Your logic applies more to Matias, as he took no issue with my reasons for voting him(ignored my case) but voted me. You and Amrun should be voting him.

No I shouldn't be voting for Mat. Why? Because he didn't perceive a non-existent threat. I'm not sure if you understand the case against you. I'm voting you because you thought there was some sort of threat against you in Matias' posting when there wasn't anything of the sort. That is self-centered scum play IMO.

Matias obviously wasn't even going to call me scum because no one was interested so there was no threat at all! If you meant that I thought he was trying to encourage suspicion on me, yes and that's scummy if he would rather have no vote and not give an opinion till he found out how much support there would be. Since when did scum push people they percieve a threat rather than people they can lynch?

Again, pushes the idea that Matias sowed some sort of seeds of suspicion on Haddock, when that clearly wasn't the case.

Haddock, I posted at least once of every thing in this game that you said I was lacking.

An empty "ur wrong"... Matias I don't care if you think you've corrected you play. If there was anything wrong with my reasons you could explain straight away.

Me voting him is no reason to vote me unless he hates the reasons, or is scum OMGUSing.

"I'm right because you haven't said I'm wrong yet". Also in this post: a complete misunderstanding what what OMGUS is.

Or rather, things that you think doesn't make sense were explained. Final soon, I'll get more indepth later.

Open question: Does TSQ have meta on lurking as scum?

He explained nothing. If you have the time try and read our ISO's quickly side by side. This is a lie and he needs to hang for it alone. "I'll get more indepth later because I'm busy", 4 hours later he posts, it's not hard to be more indepth than this.

I should post a read list too. Ask if you have questions.

Singer
Regfan
Amrun
Llamarble
Socio
Bub
Zach
Johhog
Benmage
Haddock
CES

TSQ hasn't posted yet

I wonder if it's a coincidence that all the bandwagoned players are at the bottom?

Man is Haddock grasping at straws here. Seriously man, this case isn't lining up at all. Also note the soft defense of CES at bottom of list. The last part I've left to itself because I think its profound:

Did anyone notice the size of my wagon? It makes me more sure I've caught scum.

This is terrible logic. If the size of a bandwagon indicated towniness, then the town could never lynch anybody. Its just terrible and reeks of a scum defense.

One...more...post...

All this still holds. And when CES did move his vote he put it on a lurker, AKA more safevoting.

What about Matias just joining existing bandwagons? Isn't that safevoting?

Captain - Mediumtown

It'd probably be worthwhile to do a meta-check up on him and I'll likely do it in the next few days or so but I'd like it if someone else did it as well.

If you have time for that can you read my iso besides Matias' and comment? I even asked him his reason for voting CES and he didn't explain.

Or rather, things that you think doesn't make sense were explained.

He explained nothing. If you have the time try and read our ISO's quickly side by side.

Did anyone notice the size of my wagon? It makes me more sure I've caught scum.

I'd like your reads and thoughts on other players than Matias though because right now you're tunneling on him and I'm pretty positive he's town.

These reads are mine, not the teams: Zachrules town, CES quite towny, Johnhog slightly towny. Singer was fairly scummy but I will have a better read on her later. Bub is scummy because he played with me as "confirmed town" scum and his reason for voting me is: I voted Matias because

he might have a suspicion on me he's not pushing

! Amrun is less scummy but still scummy, a bit for her reason and I didn't like Amrun's question.

Here:

All this still holds. And when CES did move his vote he put it on a lurker, AKA more safevoting.

What about Matias just joining existing bandwagons? Isn't that safevoting?

He makes another weak point against Matias here. It seems like this is Haddock singular focus. Later in this post he makes some other reads but they're pretty much pushed to the side and not elaborated on at all.

Captain - Mediumtown

It'd probably be worthwhile to do a meta-check up on him and I'll likely do it in the next few days or so but I'd like it if someone else did it as well.

If you have time for that can you read my iso besides Matias' and comment? I even asked him his reason for voting CES and he didn't explain.

Soft defense of CES.

These reads are mine, not the teams: Zachrules town, CES quite towny, Johnhog slightly towny. Singer was fairly scummy but I will have a better read on her later. Bub is scummy because he played with me as "confirmed town" scum and his reason for voting me is: I voted Matias because

he might have a suspicion on me he's not pushing

! Amrun is less scummy but still scummy, a bit for her reason and I didn't like Amrun's question.

Not expounded upon much at all, and we wouldn't have even gotten them if Regfan didn't ask. Notice how his main scum reads are on people who made cases against him (me and Amrun). Also note his town read on CES, which is questionable considering the very nature of CES' play. It seems weird that you could get a solid read like that on CES. Also a questionable town read on Johhog. Again, possibly evidence for a CES/Johhog/Haddock scumteam, but the link between Johhog and Haddock is much weaker.

Well that's it. TL;DR?

Haddock and CES are scum together.

I'm going to bed now.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bud's case is silly.

This expansive argument of extraordinary logic is making me really doubt my case right now.

Confirm vote: Captain Haddock

Why in the hell did he feel the need to defend CES's argument? Because CES is his partner, that's why. He jumped in and gave a justification for CES' post.

What arguement?

That points out an interesting trend of CES not making real arguments, but I digress. CES responded to Llamarble's vote on you by saying "nope". Llamarble pointed out his reasons for voting me and then you stepped in and defended CES' position for him.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@Regfan, I can see what you're saying about Haddock sticking to his genuine read, but personally I think this is evidence of scum doubling down. At this point, I don't think Haddock can back off his read of Matias, he's gone too far down the road with it.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Oh and Socio, we want all your teams reads on this game please and thank you.

As far as present time is concerned, just consider everyone in my team to be a bunch of bumbling fools who know nothing of finding scum. Much like myself.
You'd think none of them have ever played mafia before.
Obviously no one has any insight on anything, and should be treated as such.

Given the fact that you are on the team that won last year, I find it hard to believe that none of them have any opinions on this game.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Or maybe I just don't know them well enough.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Wait, are people voting TSQ? That's stupid considering all the scum in this game that are actually posting.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Wait, are people voting TSQ? That's stupid considering all the scum in this game that are actually posting.

Are you saying you're expecting scum to be among the most active players? If so, why is that?

No, I'm saying there are scum among the players that are actually posting, so its stupid to attack people who won't respond to you when there are scummier people who will.

[Bub Bidderskins]

MOD: I will be V/LA until monday

I really don't like the TSQ wagon. It's just soooooo easy to get on it. All you have to do is say "lol, shea hasn't posted anything yet, must be scumz". I especially don't like zach and CES making their votes useless by putting them on somebody who hasn't posted yet. Does that make TSQ town? No. But let me put it this way:

TSQ IS NOT GETTING LYNCHED TODAY

I will be fucking pissed off if we lynch a lurker on D-1. Here's what we do, we lynch scum today, then TSQ gets the night to read back up on this game. If he doesn't post anything worthwhile, then we can start lynching him. But as for right now, a lynch on TSQ is stupid and easy and anti-town.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I've also downgraded my town-read on zach because of him parking his vote on TSQ forever and not bothering to comment on much else.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I don't think you realize the fact that TSQ has pretty much been replacement dodging and not posting anything of value is a significant problem. You can call the lynch stupid all you want, but it actually does have more than a reasonable chance of hitting scum, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let him get deep into the game playing like this.

There are 13 players in this game, of which three are scum. The chance of TSQ being scum is completely random, since we have 0 reads on him at all. Do you consider a 23% chance to be reasonable?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub - Zach has certainly been commenting on other things. Why would you say he hadn't.

Zach - I'm interested in what you mean by Haddock's scumhunting being genuine. Do you think he is RIGHT or do you think he is GENUINE?

It just seemed to me that he didn't do much else other than vote for TSQ. Now that's just anecdotal, as I haven't done a good read on Zach, so take that where you will. Regardless, I don't think Zach is the lynch for today, but I no longer think he's obv town.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I don't think you realize the fact that TSQ has pretty much been replacement dodging and not posting anything of value is a significant problem. You can call the lynch stupid all you want, but it actually does have more than a reasonable chance of hitting scum, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let him get deep into the game playing like this.

There are 13 players in this game, of which three are scum. The chance of TSQ being scum is completely random, since we have 0 reads on him at all. Do you consider a 23% chance to be reasonable?

My current distribution is something like 0.8 scum in {Johhog, Matias, Regfan, singersigner, SocioPath, Zachrulez}, 0.8 scum in {Captain Haddock, Bud Bibberskins, Amrun}, 1.4 scum in {Thestatusquo, benmage, Llamarble}. 46.67% is pretty decent odds.

That's not the chance of him being scum. You also need to factor in the very real chance that your whole distribution is complete bollocks.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Like seriously, how are socio and Johhog in the towniest bracket while TSQ is in the scummiest? What have they done more than TSQ?

[Bub Bidderskins]

MOD: I'm off V/LA now

Right now, I'm really not feeling the Amrun wagon. It seems mainly based on an off-hand comment she made that doesn't really mean anything. I'd much prefer a Haddock or Johhog lynch.

I don't think you realize the fact that TSQ has pretty much been replacement dodging and not posting anything of value is a significant problem. You can call the lynch stupid all you want, but it actually does have more than a reasonable chance of hitting scum, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let him get deep into the game playing like this.

There are 13 players in this game, of which three are scum. The chance of TSQ being scum is completely random, since we have 0 reads on him at all. Do you consider a 23% chance to be reasonable?

My current distribution is something like 0.8 scum in {Johhog, Matias, Regfan, singersigner, SocioPath, Zachrulez}, 0.8 scum in {Captain Haddock, Bud Bibberskins, Amrun}, 1.4 scum in {Thestatusquo, benmage, Llamarble}. 46.67% is pretty decent odds.

That's not the chance of him being scum. You also need to factor in the very real chance that your whole distribution is complete bollocks.

Nah. I spent some time calibrating that and I'm pretty sure it's an accurate representation of my beliefs.

It is also possible that your beliefs are complete bollocks.

[Bub Bidderskins]

How did you get to that conclusion? I see a lot of points brought up against Amrun.

Yes, and most of them are about that comment she made. Here's the problem I have with the Amrun wagon. Amrun has been fairly scummy all game long. Not nearly as scummy as Johhog or Haddock IMO, but still on the scum side of the spectrum. She was like the third or fourth suspect for a lot of people, but she sort of flew under the radar a little bit. Then, all of a sudden, she makes what I find to be a legitimate comment about not wanting to reveal some info from her QT. There are several legit reasons to do this, but all of a sudden, people are jumping on that as if its scummy in some way.

It's not that Amrun is scummy, its just that the wagon is even scummier. I mean, look:

Amrun (1) - Johhog

24 hours later...

Amrun (4) - Johhog, Captain Haddock, Regfan, Llamarble

Within a day Amrun went from one vote to four. And yes, some of that is based off "a lack of stated scum reads", but she had "a lac of stated scum reads" before that. I really don't like how this wagon ballooned out of nowhere.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Hey Bub, why would your team send you out as town?

I'm stuck in a massive town losing streak. Due to the tigerpocalypse it's hard to tell how large exactly, but I think it's 6-8 town losses in a row. I just can't seem to figure out how to hunt for scum. I don't get lynched, because I've learned how play "townie" (hence my much higher scum win percentage), but I just can't find scum.

Right now I'm on a mafia break, and when I get back into a mafia game, I want my town game to be better than it is now. Is there any hope for me?

Because I hate theme shit.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Yes, and most of them are about that comment she made. Here's the problem I have with the Amrun wagon. Amrun has been fairly scummy all game long. Not nearly as scummy as Johhog or Haddock IMO, but still on the scum side of the spectrum. She was like the third or fourth suspect for a lot of people, but she sort of flew under the radar a little bit. Then, all of a sudden, she makes what I find to be a legitimate comment about not wanting to reveal some info from her QT. There are several legit reasons to do this, but all of a sudden, people are jumping on that as if its scummy in some way.

It's not that Amrun is scummy, its just that the wagon is even scummier. Within a day Amrun went from one vote to four. And yes, some of that is based off "a lack of stated scum reads", but she had "a lac of stated scum reads" before that. I really don't like how this wagon ballooned out of nowhere.

No, they're not about the comment she made at all. The only person that used that comment as part of their reasoning was Socio and he didn't even vote her for it. The whole bandwagon or votes on her are for her not-scumhunting given the massive amount of posts she has alongside with her not mentioning her primary or well only suspect at all since her vote on him at day start. That's the reasoning that Haddock presented.

She was scummy before the comment and one person was voting for her.
She was scummy after the comment, and four people are voting for her for stuff she did before the comment.

Do you see the problem I have with this wagon? All those reasons could have been used earlier but they weren't, because Amrun wasn't a convenient wagon then.

Quote tag fixed. (Equinox)

[Bub Bidderskins]

Because I hate theme shit.

Since when?

Since I started playing mafia. The only reason I join theme games is if its a canon that I like or if I really don't want to play the mini normal in queue for some reason.

Put another way: If I am being voted because I was lurking, and now I am not lurking, it makes no sense to continue voting me, since the genesis of the votes is no longer a relevant cause It is preferable to not lynch me here because now you have a chance to read me as opposed to lynching me blind. If my new content makes me seem suspicious to you, then thats a fine reason to vote me, but barring new suspicion, voting a player for lurking when they are no longer lurking makes no sense.

And I do want CES's comment explained, back to game relevant material.

Isn't the reason that you're suspected that you're not posting content, which you still aren't? (Ftr, TSQ just got scummier in my eyes since he actually posted but with almost none content)

I am aware its not a non-serious wagon. I just think that as long as I remain here and continue to post content that it should not remain a serious wagon. Surely there are better candidates to lynch than someone who just got caught up in the real world for a little bit.

Do you think you're posting content? Because I'm not agreeing. The only thing you've contributed is a vote on CES with some shitty reasoning.

I didn't really consider "very active" as part of the bargain. But still, then, we'll throw out TSQ, and even Sociopath, who is not "very" active. Johhoq came to mind - one scum read, Ben, no reasoning at all that I remember, which shows how good it was.

What? Perhaps that was true by page 5 but you should really reread.

Alright, TSQ is more active by this post but I still think my reasoning is valid as he didn't contribute at the time he wrote that post IMO.

Weak support for TSQ wagon without wagon hopping or pressure is noted. Saying that he hasn't produced content is bullshit. He voted CES, he said Amrun was town, he defended himself.

1) Johhog is town via the meta-information that I found; that he strongly strongly prefers town and finds that he is a weak scum player. It might be nullified and 'wifom' brought into it had he mentioned the point himself however he never stated anything of the sort. Also I worked out what the whole Isa/white flag ect. thing has to do with and with that line of reasoning I no longer find his 'why lie for' statement as scummy and in fact find his 'finding me scummy for outside of game shit and i'll rage at you post game' as a town-tell. His change of vote and lesser activity seems to match his town player in the games I looked through and as scum he seems to attempt to post more.

That's 100% WIFOM and definitely not reason enough to call somebody town. There are many reasons why somebody would end up with scum when they wanted town or vice versa.

[Bub Bidderskins]

But he is posting content, and the fact that you are suspicious of him

now

that he has posted content more than before when he wasn't is either stupid or scummy or both. To say that TSQ isn't posting content now is disingenuous and reeks of scum trying to preserve what once was an easy wagon.

unvote; vote: Johhog

[Bub Bidderskins]

I assure you it isn't. Believe me, in an utopia I would always get my top scum reads lynched but that's unfortunately not the reality. If I have to decide between lynching TSQ and say, CES, I'd choose TSQ any day.

Vote Count 1.21

Amrun (3) -

Johhog

, Captain Haddock, Regfan
Cogito Ergo Sum (3) - Benmage, Thestatusquo, Llamarble

Thestatusquo (3) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez

Captain Haddock (2) - Amrun, Bub Bidderskins
Johhog (1) - SocioPath

Not Voting (1) - Matias

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

Permission to call bullshit, sir?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Try reading things, Bud.

Man, you're right .

Johhog spent so much time making up bullshit arguments for his null-scum read that I didn't even realize that his actual scumread was Amrun, who he was busy putting exactly zero pressure on. My bad!

[Bub Bidderskins]

She was scummy before the comment and one person was voting for her. She was scummy after the comment, and four people are voting for her for stuff she did before the comment. Do you see the problem I have with this wagon? All those reasons could have been used earlier but they weren't, because Amrun wasn't a convenient wagon then.

Okay, this is idiotic. No one and I mean no one who voted Amrun voted her even partially because of 'any specific comment' yet you INSIST that it's the case. Sure, some of the reasons for voting her could have been used to vote her earlier but that doesn't negate the strength or validity of them been put forward later, nor does it make the votes that followed it suspicious in any way.

Fine, just explain to me how Amrun got three more votes within 24 hours.

[Bub Bidderskins]

CES' reasons for voting TSQ are lol fail.

@Reg: give me one non-meta reason why Johhog is not scum. Just one.

[Bub Bidderskins]

unvote

I did a re-read of Johhog's iso, and for some fucking reason he looks town to me now. The main reason I thought he was scummy was because he didn't pressure any of his scum suspects. But looking back at his votes, none of them looked like scum votes. Scum either A) want to start a mislynch wagon or B) try to hop on an easy wagon unnoticed. Johhog's two votes were a random vote on Benmage that he later stuck with and a vote on Amrun when nobody was voting for Amrun. He didn't add much pressure to his vote, but he didn't use his vote in a scum-motivated way.

I feel like he actually thought that Benmage and Amurn were scum at the time. And then there's the meta stuff that Reg brought up. I think he may just be town...

[Bub Bidderskins]

(woah, I'd been working on this post since last night, came in as read the last page today, and got my own ninja...weird...)

Hey Bub, why would your team send you out as town?

I'm stuck in a massive town losing streak. Due to the tigerpocalypse it's hard to tell how large exactly, but I think it's 6-8 town losses in a row. I just can't seem to figure out how to hunt for scum. I don't get lynched, because I've learned how play "townie" (hence my much higher scum win percentage), but I just can't find scum.

Right now I'm on a mafia break, and when I get back into a mafia game, I want my town game to be better than it is now. Is there any hope for me?

This is actually a good point. I feel as though his answer (I don't like themes, etc) doesn't really cover the options of the other two that are not themed.

I think it needs to be pointed out that all of this presumes that bub's team had any scum PMs to distribute to begin with.

On TSQ's town reads. They are exclusively on people who were on the fence with him annoyed with his lurking, but not sure if it made him scum. I think that's all that needs to be said there.

unvote; vote: Zach

Why are you voting for somebody that you aren't sure is scum four days until deadline. I really don't like how your vote has been parked on the easiest wagon to get on.

Has Shea posted yet?

Nope?

confirm vote: Thestatusquo

Sure he has, if you're counting posts that aren't being made in this game.

Unvote: Vote: Thestatusquo

That was made on May 8. That vote has been there ever since, and it was after the wagon had started. That vote has been totally useless for over a week.

[Bub Bidderskins]

So your solution is to start a completely new wagon four days from deadline?

My solution is to lynch scum. If this wagon doesn't pan out I'm willing to lynch CES or TSQ if I have to, even though I think Shea's town.

Actually, a few things:

1. Do you think Shea is town?

2. Does not moving his vote make Zach scum?

3. Why do you think it's the easiest wagon?

1. Yes
2. Partially
3. Because shea couldn't defend himself. Its the path of least resistance.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm interested in why bub's specifically interested in my vote when it's technically the most recent of all the active ones. (Since that was his basis.) It's an issue in a case specifically crafted against me, but not used for anyone else.

Yes, it was last on the bandwagon. You put your vote on an easy, useless bandwagon and left it there uselessly. You haven't scumhunted much at all since that, since you could just say "TSQ's scum" and leave it there, since TSQ can't respond.

And TSQ if you have to? After me and CES? What?

Well, actually I forgot about Amrun. My lynch order would be something like Zach>CES>Amrun>>>>>>>>TSQ. I would say Haddock's replacement above TSQ as wel, but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Also TSQ is posting now and clearly defending himself. So your response to 3 is no longer valid.

Bullshit scum argument. That point was valid when you voted for it. "I murdered all those people because they were shitting in the urinal, but now nobody is shitting in the urinal anymore, so I'm totally absolved of murder, right?" You can't go back in time zach. Let's look at what you've said about TSQ, who is apparently your number 1 scumread, since he actually started posting:

CES vote from TSQ is unimpressive.

I can sum up the rest of his activity as basically challenging Regfan's scumreads, and then calling Amrun obvtown.

Hardly anything that screams at me to unvote. If nothing else, I want the pressure on him to remain so he doesn't just go and disappear for another week.

On TSQ's town reads. They are exclusively on people who were on the fence with him annoyed with his lurking, but not sure if it made him scum. I think that's all that needs to be said there.

Just that, and you made 18 posts since he came back. And all you said was: "I don't really want to unvote" and "I'm not sure if he's scum". On your supposed number one suspect.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Actually, a few things:

1. Do you think Shea is town?

2. Does not moving his vote make Zach scum?

3. Why do you think it's the easiest wagon?

1. Yes
2. Partially
3. Because shea couldn't defend himself. Its the path of least resistance.

1. Why?
2. Better question: is Zach scum? What else other than him not moving his vote makes him scum?
3. Like Zack said, this is no longer valid reasoning because he's been around and posting actively (however empty) in this thread. CES and I have also not budged this entire time, and yet you're not criticizing our votes on the "easy" wagon.

1. He jumped on an easy bandwagon and kept his vote on an spot. Also, read my previous post.
2. I think Zach is scum, again, see above post
3. He was the third on that easy bandwagon. It was an easy place to slide onto the bandwagon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Fair enough. You pointed out what you admitted to be a null tell. That really furthers your case on TSQ. My case still stands.

[Bub Bidderskins]

This:

MoI supports a Zach flashwagon.

And this:

Thestatusquo (4) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Llamarble

Make me think that a Llamarble/Zach scum team is impossible.

[Bub Bidderskins]

But, on that note, my scumread on Haddock is lessening. I like Captain Falcon so far, and even though I know it doesn't matter at all, I can't help but feel less passion for that Ajax flipped scum. I'm trying to reason myself with statistics that I know. I did think Haddock's replace out was a minor town tell, though.

The chance that Falcon's team got 2 or more scum PMs is 89%, I believe. Of course, its almost certain that at least one team got 2 or more PMs, so we can't clear him just based off of that.

We're nearing the end of the day, we're going to have to start moving towards a lynch so it's not last minute scramble. Bub, while I think Zach has a decent chance of being scum given that his posts have really gone downhill in this game he's not being lynched today so move to Amrun please.

If there's no support for a zach lynch by tomorrow evening, then I'll switch to Amrun.

[Bub Bidderskins]

There are scenarios where team mates flipping scum or town would be meaningful, but I really don't see how Captain Ajax's alignment is supposed to be linked to Captain Falcon's. It's null.

MoI supports a Zach flashwagon.

And this:

Thestatusquo (4) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Llamarble

Make me think that a Llamarble/Zach scum team is impossible.

Really? Impossible? Because MoImarble throws some suspicion his way and they happen to have been on the same wagon at some point?

Well, highly unlikely (nothing's impossible...). But I find it unlikely that scum would vote after a buddy on a wagon. Just my opinion.

Also, lol at Falcon calling my vote on Zach a "wagon".

[Bub Bidderskins]

Well, clearly the zach flash wagon isn't getting anywhere, so I'm going to make my vote useful.

unvote; vote: Amrun

Willing to lynch CES as well. I really don't want to lynch TSQ as I think the wagon on him is pure shit, but I'd vote for him given no other options.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Singer, get off your plz.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Singer, get off your plz.

Fuck.

EBWOP: Singer, get off your fail wagon plz.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Would take a Benmage or Llamarble lynch failing that. Any other wagon is a meh/avoid no lynch wagon.

This makes me think Amrun is scum with zach.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I did some reading, and looking back I don't like how Llamarble seemed to be on every major wagon. I'm questioning my scum read on zach right now, though, since it would seem weird as scum to continue to push TSQ when Amrun was an easy wagon. That's all WIFOM, of course, but I said before that I find it unlikely that Llamarble and zach are scumbuds.

vote: llamarble

Falcon's case on me in D-1 and his vote on Llamarble is making me lean town on him now.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Singer, what are your thoughts on other players? Your singular focus on TSQ is anti-town. Why aren't you all over socio's case?

Speaking of which, socio, get in the fucking game.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Bub Bidderskins has been prodded.

:looks at messages: Um, no I haven't.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Sorry about not posting. I've been following the game, but I don't really have much to say when my number 1 scumread right now is lurking. Do you hear that Llmarble? Get the fuck in here.

Also, socio's reads are total bullshit. He called two the consensus most townie players scumbuds. But to me, it almost seems like Socio's trying to make himself look townie by saying stuff that scum would "never" say. Like calling himself scummy. Like attacking two players with no votes on them. It really seems forced to me, but that's just a gut read

[Bub Bidderskins]

It doesn't really affect my opinion. It's almost certain that at least one team got two or more scum role PMs. Along with other factors that might make me lean town on him, but so far that is the only thing going for socio-town.

[Bub Bidderskins]

unvote; vote: zach

That case on nacho is terrible. The whole thing is total fluff that's been trumped up with quotes to make it look like something. It basically boils down to "y u voting me when u say socio scum, too." Which is stupid. The whole case is OMGUS.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I HAVE RETURNED.
If anybody actually thinks I was lurking tactically, I am happy to provide a list of the things I've done in the last 10 days.

Why do you feel the need to offer that?

Also Bub, my post wasn't a "case." It was more tearing Nacho's crap down.

Wait, did just admit to voting for nacho without a case?

Singer, get out of your TSQ rut. Seriously. Is nacho's posting townie or scummy?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I HAVE RETURNED.
If anybody actually thinks I was lurking tactically, I am happy to provide a list of the things I've done in the last 10 days.

Why do you feel the need to offer that?

Maybe this?

Sorry about not posting. I've been following the game, but I don't really have much to say when my number 1 scumread right now is lurking. Do you hear that Llmarble? Get the fuck in here.

Or possibly something from another game and I got mixed up.

You haven't answered the question.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, right now I think singer, matias, nacho, falcon, and johhog are town.

I could be convinced to lynch any of zach, llamarble, CES, socio, or benmage, with a preference to zach or llamarble.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Ugh, I am actually in danger of getting mislynched again.

I could be convinced to lynch llamarble.

Why?

I really didn't like your jump on the TSQ wagon on D-1. I felt it was very weak and convenient. Then you jumped on the Amrun wagon when it got large. I really don't like those wagon hops.

[Bub Bidderskins]

unvote; vote: llamarble

This zach wagon isn't getting anywhere.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I'm willing to leave Benmage for now. We shouldn't clear him because of this but it's unlikely that he's scum considering that he was the competing wagon to Llamarble.

My thoughts exactly. It seemed like Llamarble was pushing that as an alternative to himself.

Right now I'm looking at Socio and Zach. Zach was bouncing around between the wagons, and he may have got on the llamarble wagon when it was convenient to bus. However, he did have some interactions with llamarble earlier that made me think he and llamarble are not scum together. Socio was, well, being socio.

[Bub Bidderskins]

The one thing that makes me lean town on nacho is llamarble's interaction with TSQ D-1. One of the main reasons I thought Llamarble was scum was his wagon hop onto TSQ.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Matias, we get it. Nobody alive is confirmed town. Now stop with the bullshit semantics and tell us strait up: do you think benmage is town or scum?

I don't like how Matias ducked and dodged around people asking him his reads by saying "hey, nobody's

technically

confirmed." Personally, I think Llamarble's vote on Benmage makes it unlikely that benmage is scum. With that, we have the remaining playerlist:

Falcon
Bub
Singer
Benmage
Zach
Johhog
Nacho
Socio
Matias

Falcon is town in my eyes. Singer also looks town. Her constant push on TSQ/nacho reads as genuine to me. Earlier I did think Johhog was scum, but I changed my mind when I looked at his iso and saw that he had some reads and pushed them with what I found to be valid logic. Benmage is likely town as I've already stated, and I'm town because of my role PM. That leaves:

Zach
Socio
Matias
Nacho

That is an acceptable lynch pool, I think.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

Wow, that was a lazy vote.

vote: matias

Because of this, I can definitely see a nacho/matias scumteam now. Matias is avoiding mentioning nacho and voting the next most viable wagon.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

Wow, that was a lazy vote.

vote: matias

Because of this, I can definitely see a nacho/matias scumteam now. Matias is avoiding mentioning nacho and voting the next most viable wagon.

What the fuck is this? Just fucking lynch Nacho then. If anything YOU'RE the one avoiding the larger wagon and trying to hop on some stupid bullshit. Matias makes one vote that I call lazy and you completely overlook any desperate pleading to get this one fucking person out of the game. Nacho's never going to be nightkilled. Matias can easily be PoEed town in lylo if we make it there. Nacho cannot.

Comeon now.

Seriously.

Nacho now. If that doesn't end the game, I give up and y'all can have whatever the fuck lynch you want.

I'm willing to lynch nacho, but the lazy vote by Matias caught me.