TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Llamarble]

I certainly do.

VOTE: CES

[Llamarble]

woo*

Townpoints 'cause she didn't gather all her thoughts together before posting.

He was the fourth on the bandwagon, which is my breaking point for "bandwagon inflation". But more importantly, he made a comment that did not further any discussion at all and was kind of pointless. Other people either just voted or came up with a silly reason for voting. You asked Singer a valid meta-related question. CES just made a silly comment on the game itself that served no purpose.

Townpoints for scumhunting.

CES' first post comes off as null to me.

Bub's post and response strike me as townish.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Townpoints because I agree with this. CES plays the early game a pretty similar way most of the time and is tricky to read because of it.

4 votes on a player in a game where 7 is needed for lynch is still fine with me, heck I would even call it pro-town. As to your second point no real comment, but I view it as null.

Townpoints for 'heck' bit.

VOTE: Benmage

[Llamarble]

There's a reason why I chose Llamarble at the beginning. Scum would likely hop onto a bandwagon being pushed against someone formerly scum in a game like this in an attempt to fit in, assuming Llamarble is town (or possibly even if he's not).

Scumpoints for 'I cooked up this purposeful vote in my lab pregame.'
But townpoints for trying to figure out Zach.
And townpoints for this auxiliary introspection stuff:

It seems like convoluted reasoning but I'll make that judgment later on in the game.

Though it could be trying to disengage from something sticky.
And Zach minor hypocrisy was definitely a latchable thing.

I don't think my wagon was terribly informative because it consisted entirely of people who were probably going to vote me anyway because of last year and CES, who was probably going to vote the biggest wagon.

Benmage why did you pick this game?

[Llamarble]

I've noticed myself and others doing voteplanz more often as scum than as town at the start of a game.
I think scum think more about how they're going to play the early game than town do.

BTW I picked this game because I had a great experience last year and I like the setup.

[Llamarble]

VOTE: Captain Haddock

[Llamarble]

VOTE: Captain Haddock

Nope.

43 started off artificial and followed up with "you are wrong so I get to vote you"

I was voting Benmage because I think he would prefer a theme but would pick WF if it would allow him to be scum.
I still want to hear why he picked this game.

[Llamarble]

Catching up.

Zach, why do you prefer town over scum?
I got some 'GO LYNCH ZACH' from my QT.
QT also thinks CES town, Singer town, Bub probtown, Johhog scum.

Where I'm at right now:
TOWN:
Llamarble
Singersigner
Matias

Probtown:
Amrun
Bub Bidderskins

Weaktown:
Regfan

????:
TSQ
Sociopath - P. sure last year he said his reason for playing WF was to show scum could be caught in mountainous
Zachrulez
Benmage

Scumland:
CES
Johhog - Mostly talks about his gamechoice. Sticks to his Benmage vote in a kinda weird manner.
Captain Haddock

[Llamarble]

How is 1 not accomplishing 2? This is an illogical argument. Bub's probably town for it, though.

Hrm, I think this comes from scum SLIGHTLY more often than it comes from town.
And I do feel a little buddied by Amrun.
I wish Flash IV hadn't been eaten by the tigers.

[Llamarble]

I was talking about you pointing it out rather than him making it, actually.

[Llamarble]

Llarmable

, I disagree with almost all of your reasoning behind 'townpoints' handed out. Not completely thinking through a post before posting it is more likely to be player-related than alignment related and inclusion of words like 'heck' aren't town-tells in the slightest. I don't remember you ever handing out townpoints for things so meaningless, do you by any chance have a link to a game where you've done-so as town?

I don't think they were meaningless.
Scumposts tend to be crafted carefully and less likely to require additional info than thoughtdumpy town posts.

[Llamarble]

Okay.
I prefer town by a lot over scum too, but I played scum last year because I thought it gave our team the best chance to win and I figured I could still scumhunt in the other games.

[Llamarble]

Grey thought 22 by Zach really lacked bite.
Just kinda felt to him like:
"Here, have a null read on a very unreadable poster.
Here, have a town read on Bub.
Here, have some mafia theory."
I agree with him that Zach has been pretty passive / isn't working his vote very hard.

[Llamarble]

@Regfan:
1. That was also Grey. I guess he regards CES as notoriously unreadable but also read him as town.
Johhog scum was LLD; the rest from that list were Grey.
LLD thinks CES scum though. MoI has mild town on Benmage and CES.
Grey's Zachread is the one that was strongest and he says Zach got better / worse since then.
Grey also mentioned Bub's mother.
Our QT is fun and has many very sketchy ads.

2. I was reading Amrun at the time. Benmage buddying me more isn't particularly important to me figuring out Amrun.
I noticed exactly what you said while reading Benmage through later though.

[Llamarble]

So no reasoning for any of those, 'marble? And why did you put me in scumland?

Mostly it was 'look at X' or 'I have scummeta of CES bandwagon early' ... 'oh he always does that? Okay he looks decently town.'
I'll walk through my QT in detail if I'm run up.

As for scumland, it was too much talking about things that aren't who is scum and why, vote sitting in one place for awhile instead of moving around aggressively, and the way you treated DH's vote on you as invalid because of your meta instead of invalid because you're town.
I'm not really feeling it right now though.

[Llamarble]

I was just reading your ISO and thinking pretty much exactly the things Bub said.
Also you have a lot of posts about not-relevant-to-who-is-scum things.

[Llamarble]

I AM IN HIGH SPIRITS TODAY.

Regfan I agree with your list entirely except I don't trust benmage.
His spaghettireads/posting reminds me of winvitational.
TSQ WHY DID YOU HAVE 14 POSTS ON MS BETWEEN GAMESTART AND NOW?

UNVOTE:
Haddock is harping on his 'matias was trying to subtlely direct lynchattention onto me' thing enough that he probably believes it.
Also his argument is grounded on the whole "I am town so how people treat me matters a lot" thing which towns use a bit more.

Also I am feeling CES scum again.
VOTE: CES
191 is BS because Johhog's team mafia related dealings are one of the sketchiest things about him because he spends a lot of time talking about it and scum LOVE talking about things they can be honest about.

As for scumland, it was too much talking about things that aren't who is scum and why, vote sitting in one place for awhile instead of moving around aggressively, and the way you treated DH's vote on you as invalid because of your meta instead of invalid because you're town.

All this still holds. And when CES did move his vote he put it on a lurker, AKA more safevoting.

[Llamarble]

Amrun has a really wide 'can fake this' range, so it is fairly hard to read her early.
She's a little squishier than usual but this is kind of a squishy game.

[Llamarble]

Vote Count 1.01

Llamarble (4) - Matias, Amrun, singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum
Benmage (2) - Johhog, Llamarble
Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - Benmage, Bub Bidderskins
singersigner (1) - Zachrulez

Not Voting (4) - Captain Haddock, Regfan, SocioPath, Thestatusquo

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

I literally could have predicted every single vote on this wagon pregame.
CES 'cause he always wagons and the others because players from last year's WF have made comments about how much I was obvious scum and should have gotten lynched all year. (Yes Singer it was a completely reasonable prediction by Matias)
So either scum were lurking / not eager to pile on or some of the people who were already going to vote me drew scum.

Vote Count 1.05

Matias (3) - Captain Haddock, singersigner, Benmage
Benmage (2) - Johhog, Zachrulez
Captain Haddock (2) - Llamarble, Amrun
Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - Bub Bidderskins, Matias
Johhog (1) - Regfan
Llamarble (1) - Cogito Ergo Sum

Not Voting (2) - SocioPath, Thestatusquo

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

Vote Count 1.06

Captain Haddock (4) - Llamarble, Amrun, Bub Bidderskins, Matias
Benmage (2) - Johhog, Zachrulez
Johhog (1) - Regfan
Llamarble (1) - Cogito Ergo Sum
Matias (1) - Captain Haddock
Thestatusquo (1) - singersigner

Not Voting (3) - SocioPath, Thestatusquo, Benmage

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

Vote Count 1.08

Captain Haddock (4) - Llamarble, Amrun, Bub Bidderskins, Matias
Thestatusquo (3) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez
Johhog (2) - Regfan, Benmage
Benmage (1) - Johhog
Matias (1) - Captain Haddock

Not Voting (2) - SocioPath, Thestatusquo

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).

Amrun / Haddock / CES scum each help make the VCs feel about right (big wagons ~1 scum), factoring in towniness of the people they spent time on wagons with. I think the most telling wagon here is TSQ's. Votes sitting on a player who hasn't posted yet just DON'T DO ANYTHING, and I would not expect a player who loves bandwagons and believes in the power of votes to make useful things happen the way CES does to just let his vote sit around on a lurker. It's frustrating trying to get anything done when 3 votes are sitting uselessly on a player who isn't interacting yet and 2 more are out of commission because the slots are lurking.

[Llamarble]

Each of you _individually_ would help the wagons make a bit more sense.
There isn't really any reconciliation necessary.
Particularly since wagon placement tells are usually more
'I feel good about my reads because they make decent wagonsense' than
'I am going to base my reads on what makes the most possible wagonsense'

[Llamarble]

Huh? Which one?

[Llamarble]

I was not saying that a team of Amrun + Haddock + CES would make the vote counts make sense.
I was saying that each of Amrun / Haddock / CES individually, by being scum, could make the vote counts make more sense.
Basically individual tell not team-tell, and not even a very strong one.

[Llamarble]

The most useful thing I got out of looking at the wagons was thinking about how out of place CES' vote on TSQ is.

[Llamarble]

Votes sitting on a player who hasn't posted yet just DON'T DO ANYTHING, and I would not expect a player who loves bandwagons and believes in the power of votes to make useful things happen the way CES does to just let his vote sit around on a lurker.

And your explanation is what?

Bud's case is silly.

The only discussion that the TSQ wagon has produced is that I've called it a frustrating waste of vote-time, and that could've been accomplished equally well by you and the other players on it not voting at all. I think TSQ lurking and posting in other threads is scummy, but he can be voted later once he shows up and is available to actually interact with his accusers / provide something for people to actually talk about. And I would expect you of all people to feel the same way.

This post is also CES' third "I'm going to dismiss this out of hand with no particular explanation."
I don't like all the defanging of stuff without offering a useful alternative. It makes the game more passive.
CES is all oneliners and no push this game.

[Llamarble]

PeregrineV thinks that CES is scum.

GreyICE says this seems highly unlikely.

[Llamarble]

That Peregrine thought CES was scum

[Llamarble]

My explanation of your actions is that you're not trying to find scum but are instead doing things you think will look reasonable like voting a lurker and shooting stuff down.

Johhog I don't feel comfortable going any further down this line yet until I'm surer of the rules around talking about teammates.

[Llamarble]

I thought Benmage was scum in Winvitational too. A bunch of people did.
He got that tracker innocent to reset the reads on him to town and played well from there on out to not get lynched.

Shea-benmage-Llamarble is the scum team.

Your Amrunscumread sucks, Regfan.

SHEA-BENMAGE-LLAMARBLE 2012

Scum: Thestatusquo, benmage, Llamarble
Back-up scum: Bud Bibberskins, Captain Haddock, Amrun

We're lynching sheascum Today, so that seems very productive to me.

SHEA-BENMAGE-LLAMARBLE 2012

1. CES' reads have been static for half the game so far. Maybe a top scumread stays the same for a long time, but all 3 top reads don't stay the same when you're looking for scum. Especially when you have a whole team's worth of people with new ideas.

2. CES' refrain feels like MoI's "MORE MOS VOTES PLEASE" from when he was scum in Winvitational.
Appeal to repetition helps scum pretend to have strong convictions and it works as a persuasive technique.
Town ATR happens because they feel strongly and end up saying the same thing as they're trying to get people to listen.

[Llamarble]

I intend for my reads to be static throughout the game.

Why is your scumhunting so shallow, 'marble?

MoI says you've said consistency is overrated many times as town. It doesn't fit.

[Llamarble]

That is true.
VOTE: TSQ
GreyICE and MoI will be happier now.
Honestly, I've been intending to vote him when he shows up but he hasn't done that.
CES + Johhog + TSQ is making a lot lot of sense to me. The interactions all work.
It makes sense out of CES' TSQ vote as distancing by sitting his vote on his buddy for a long time and then defusing easily if TSQ stops lurking.

Town-
Llamarble
Bub Bidderskins
Singersigner
Matias - this read is out of date though

Probtown-
Regfan
Benmage

Need more reading-
Amrun
Zach
Haddock

Maybescum-
Socio - ridiculously different and less participation than last year, and he was awesome last year so why change.

Scumteam-
TSQ
Johhog
CES

[Llamarble]

I was busy reading.

I assume you meant 3 days isn't long enough for consistency to be scummy.
But you had a lot of posts in that time and it still doesn't feel right.

[Llamarble]

I thought you were being sarcastic about that.
It would be useful if you communicated in something other than oneliners.

[Llamarble]

So, sad news: I can't share why I now suspect TSQ. I don't know if I'm willing to stake his whole alignment on what I wanted to share but cannot, but it does make me lean scum on him.

I couldn't figure this out. Maybe one of my teammates will find it.

I'm in basically the same situation on Johhog.

[Llamarble]

Grey thinks Amrun's TSQ scumtell she can't talk about is BS for reasons I can't talk about.
I'm open to the possibility we just missed something though. It seems an odd thing to fake.

I guess she could've gotten the idea from my Johhogtell though.
And I know she can fake odd things.

[Llamarble]

Yeah, I find it at least as likely that you're scum whose teammate found something as it is that you made something up.

Regfan is sketchier than I remembered, but I agree with him about most things.

[Llamarble]

^Town unless Johhog's scum.
Scum don't randomly spike plausible mislynches often, and especially don't put in a bunch of meta effort to do so.

VOTE: Amrun
Basically same reason as Regfan/Haddock.

[Llamarble]

Hey Bub, why would your team send you out as town?

I'm stuck in a massive town losing streak. Due to the tigerpocalypse it's hard to tell how large exactly, but I think it's 6-8 town losses in a row. I just can't seem to figure out how to hunt for scum. I don't get lynched, because I've learned how play "townie" (hence my much higher scum win percentage), but I just can't find scum.

Right now I'm on a mafia break, and when I get back into a mafia game, I want my town game to be better than it is now. Is there any hope for me?

[Llamarble]

Blah, my reads keep changing every time I read through.
My time for this game is about to dropoff a lot, and I haven't found somebody who I'm confident WILL flip scum yet.
I'll do my best to check in and reread one person a day though / comment on what's topical.

[Llamarble]

Note: I'll be back to normal early D2.

[Llamarble]

If I sheep anybody it'll be my teammates and maybe Regfan, but when I say sheep I mean read the person they want me to off and vote if it seems reasonable.

CES' pet theory is pretty wat.
I know TSQ in real life, so I doubt he'd lurk this much if we were scumbuddies.

[Llamarble]

Well as for the suddenness of the wagon, I for one definitely liked the idea of making it 3 votes in a row simply to help smash things up / push things forward. Had there not been any other votes on Amrun, I'd probably not have voted her at that exact point, but I've been wary of her for a while because she just hasn't been as aggressive/dynamic as usual.

[Llamarble]

I feel much better about Amrun now.
VOTE: CES

[Llamarble]

I'll have some more time tomorrow, but I'll just relay recent teammate stuff today.

1. CES' reads have been static for half the game so far. Maybe a top scumread stays the same for a long time, but all 3 top reads don't stay the same when you're looking for scum. Especially when you have a whole team's worth of people with new ideas.

New York 146 just came to an end, which was a game I was moderating so I wanted to comment on it.

Basically CES entered the game and threw down a vote for Tammy. Contribution was minimal because he was catching up on the game. The real core of his play came in lylo (the next day) where he presented static scumreads on Fitz and MOI. Those reads basically never changed. I'm just verifying that I have seen this type of play from town CES.

MoI says that this is an apples-to-rocks comparison because in the game you mentioned he replaced in, then picked 2 out of 4 people as scum in lylo and stuck to it. Whereas here it's D1 and there are 3 scum in 13 players and the total amount of information available has been increasing between him restating his reads.

Grey doesn't like Singer's 407 and mentioned that she picked scum last year.
He says 439 looks town though because of the 'useless git' bit.

Grey doesn't like TSQ very much, and he also thinks he's scum.

He also doesn't like Matias 410, which he thinks is townflip-preparation.

[Llamarble]

Actually, my reasoning could fall under his umbrella term "I like the setup", but I will oblige you Zach.

LLamarble is an intelligent player. He is also a good player, touting an impressive win to loss ratio, and even going as far as listing himself an 8 or a 9 in terms of player skill. Although I can't find the thread, I remember his explanation of the reason vividly. Essentially, LLmarble's definition of a good player is the rate of turnaround when replacing into a slot. Turning a bad slot into a protown slot that lives to endgame is one of his primary criteria for viewing another player as "good".

Llmarble's cockiness is just the type of thing that would lead me to believe he chose scum again (given the option). However, that rests on the question - did he have the option? Given his play, I think so.

I think you are confusing the 'wins above replacement' statistic with me saying something about playing well as a replacement.
My whole team is cocky, hence 'three dicks.' I'm not sure what that would have to do with choosing games though.

I am way behind on sleep (headache-point), so I can't do any real digging tonight.
MoI supports a Zach flashwagon.

[Llamarble]

I read Zach and don't want to lynch him. I also have no interest at all in lynching Bub.
CF / Bub, can you put your votes on your favorite of the 4 viable wagons?
There are two days until deadline.

[Llamarble]

Bub :is: town. Also Bub is voting for Amrun right now, so I doubt that they are scum together.
It was brutally difficult winning after DGB got lynched D1 last year.

TSQ wagon is bad. His response to being run up is town and the lurking his wagon was based on seems unlikely to be strategic.
He's been unapologetic/righteously-annoyed at his wagon in a town way since getting back.
He called Amrun town, and scum don't often call likely alternatives to themselves town.

VOTE: Amrun
I would still prefer CES, but I reread and 680, her wagon vs TSQ's wagon (CES doesn't want to lynch her but Regfan does), and just going through everything again I think she's decently likely to flip scum.
I will hopefully be able to check in one more time before deadline, so if there is a CES wagon at that point I'll move my vote back.

[Llamarble]

I was entirely off the internet the last couple days. I'll catch up soon though.

[Llamarble]

I HAVE RETURNED.
If anybody actually thinks I was lurking tactically, I am happy to provide a list of the things I've done in the last 10 days.

[Llamarble]

My choosing scum in spite of preferring town last year was certainly partly for WIFOM reasons (the overall reason being I thought it gave our team the best chance of winning).
OMGUS comes from both alignments and you have to look at what kind it is, but yeah Nacho OMGUSed Zach more than the other way around.
Also Singer's page 34 stuff looks town.

[Llamarble]

Nacho's activity level looks high compared to Nacho scum.
I like his catch up.
I think CES is a good chunk more likely to be scum than Zach though.
VOTE: CES

I'm going to look at Amrun's wagon though. CES wasn't on it.

Also last year I killed IPie Because he was obvtown and wrongly listed me as town and I didn't want to give him a chance to change his mind. There are a lot of possible reasons for Regfan to die and I'm going to reread his / Amrun's arguments.

[Llamarble]

I HAVE RETURNED.
If anybody actually thinks I was lurking tactically, I am happy to provide a list of the things I've done in the last 10 days.

Why do you feel the need to offer that?

Maybe this?

Sorry about not posting. I've been following the game, but I don't really have much to say when my number 1 scumread right now is lurking. Do you hear that Llmarble? Get the fuck in here.

Or possibly something from another game and I got mixed up.

[Llamarble]

My play has been empty today because I have had very little time for this game.
I'm catching up / rereading how we got from 4 3 vote wagons to a lynch yesterday right now.
Also CES town sitting his vote basically the entire game on people who simply have not been present to respond does not compute.

[Llamarble]

I'd rather hear from Llamarble first before I make judgment on him.

I've heard a lot in the silence that has been coming from him since the end of day 1.

This was probably what I was thinking about when I said I could account for my time, ftr

[Llamarble]

My play has been empty today because I have had very little time for this game.
I'm catching up / rereading how we got from 4 3 vote wagons to a lynch yesterday right now.
Also CES town sitting his vote basically the entire game on people who simply have not been present to respond does not compute.

You're saying he was expecting you to be inactive? Because that's a pretty ridiculous accusation to make really.

I'm saying I expect him to do something productive in the meantime, or have a read that changes ever.
His D2 play is pretty much sitting his vote on me and arguing that the NK points to me.

[Llamarble]

I'm not sure whether most of the scum were on it. That is what I am figuring out.
Falcon looks pretty darn town.

[Llamarble]

I don't find anybody in the middle of the Amrunwagon scummy.
Socio / Matias wouldn't have had any particular motive to protect TSQ since by the time they voted Amrun was already probably the lynch (TSQ never even placed a 1v1 survival vote).
Overall Nacho is probtown and scum likely didn't care which of those wagons lynched.

CES, Socio, Johhog, Benmage is where the scum live.

[Llamarble]

I'm saying I expect him to do something productive in the meantime, or have a read that changes ever.
His D2 play is pretty much sitting his vote on me and arguing that the NK points to me.

This is wrong.
If I were you, I would get to catching up and stop talking about things you clearly haven't read.

I looked through and other than him calling Singer town I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I'll get through a deeper readcycle tonight.

[Llamarble]

My #3 and #4 reads are also inactive fucks, 'marble, so what do you expect from me?

@CES...what do you think of Nacho's play today? You dropped Shea's push yesterday for Llamarble today...what's different now?

My read on that slot has only strengthened. But I've always had both of them as scum; I just went after Shea Yesterday because Llamarble didn't seem feasible.

If you're town I expect you to stop misreading me and vote someplace useful.
Town don't cop out to who is feasible instead of trying really hard to find the one person who :will: flip scum and lynching them though.
Especially not for a long period of time while the player they chose to vote isn't even there.
You are doing your CES be terse and snarky thing but there isn't townmind behind your path

[Llamarble]

The path I don't like is instead of trying really hard to find the scummiest scumbag and lynch them and then compromising as lynchtime approached, you voted for the easier lynch on a lurker for a long time which had no votee to respond and made the day more boring. So you were practical about lynchchoice prematurely and impractical about helping smash things up / making the day useful.

[Llamarble]

Well I had some votes on me when I came back and figured that might be related to lurking or saw some people had said some things.
Don't precisely remember my mind-state, honestly.

[Llamarble]

You're going through the same motions you usually go through as town, but instead of smashing things up you've been sitting your vote in places that weren't biting back because it's easier.

Scum want to be on losing wagons that they can look like they legitimately believe in, and voting lurkers who are likely to show up and push the lynch away are good options for that.

[Llamarble]

If X is scum for Y then why isn't Z scum for Y is a usually useless argument that pretty much always has the same answer.
Context.
To put it bluntly, I expected more from CES than sitting his vote for flimsy reasons on people who aren't posting and never reevaluating.
You-town aggressively tunneling TSQ despite him having basically no posts I can buy, and you have a lot of other town-feeling posts.

[Llamarble]

I went and read some of your other games a couple weeks ago.

Singer, I've called you or things you've done town at various points throughout the game I'm pretty sure.
I don't feel any particular need to explain townreads on people who have done similar things to people I think are scum.

[Llamarble]

I went and looked for your recent scumgames and some recent towngames.
I don't really remember the names of the games though; I was looking for tone and how you used your vote and stuff or something.
I'll probably look through again soonish, but I have a lot of other people to reread.

[Llamarble]

I'd say it was 2 or 3 scumgames and 3 or 4 towngames, looking mainly at your ISOs except when figuring out what something was about.

Shea didn't even vote Amrun, so the wagons weren't :that: close.
I tend to change my mind a little more violently than most people.
What do you think was unnatural about my shift on TSQ?

[Llamarble]

Well it was.
He dropped a couple of town-being-run-up tells.
If anything I'd expect scum to try and drive a lynch home and town to be more likely to rethink things, but that doesn't really matter.

[Llamarble]

I do remember having to go back far for scumgames.
I might have missed Marius and Sulla because there isn't any trivial place where your alignment is identified.

[Llamarble]

^ Semantic Bull Crap.
Recent as in I go search your topics and go through your games until I find a few where you were scum and a few where you were town. I remembered having to search for awhile after you reminded me.

If anything this whole line of inquiry is a symptom of me not immediately going back and looking at the games again, which pretty much confirms me as town simply because I don't play off the top of my head as scum when I don't recall something clearly. When I'm scum, I am very good at reconstructing a clear thought process behind everything.
Townies who are voting me really need to vote actual scum.

MoI also just reminded me that he offered me Dr Who mafia when I was looking for stuff.


VOTE: Benmage
THIS IS THE PATH.
Benmage has been passive all game after shifting his reads list around some on D1.
He keeps his vote on CES without pushing, CES lists him as scum without voting him.

Ben

, can you explain the Amrun, Johhog, CES and Socio town reads for me?

CES for his reasoning why Johhog is town, double confirmed them both.
Amrun because he feels genuine. I mean shit he looks real obvious.
SP gut.

He didn't read what CES said about Johhog carefully but called both of them clear town for it.
He has been buddying me for unclear reasons all game.
I haven't had access enough to be obvllamatown till now.
And he does love being scum.

[Llamarble]

Ugh, I am actually in danger of getting mislynched again.

I could be convinced to lynch llamarble.

Why?

[Llamarble]

It wasn't inadequate, it just took a bit more time than usual to find, which wasn't something that stuck as an important part of the metaing experience. I was extremely unspecific about the metaing I did. Do you really believe I'd go back and look things up again and then give as minimal specifics as I did about it?

I said I was in danger of being mislynched, not that it will actually happen.
I don't really have the spare time to masspost but I really really hate getting lynched.
I got mislynched in Nomination Mafia and Bedtime stories. I had gotten really used to not ever getting lynched prior to that.

@Llamarble...what makes CES's vote/push on Shea any different than mine? I never once moved my vote after that and pushed rather consistently/hard, yet that doesn't seem to be a problem for you.

This argument was entirely retarded and I have explained why it was so. If you are unsatisfied then explain why and I shall go into greater detail.

Though I do agree with wondering why Llamarble felt the need to specify that he could provide "proof" of his absence...

I third that notion.

VOTE: Llmarble

This argument was entirely retarded and I have explained why it was so. If you are unsatisfied then explain why and I shall go into greater detail.

I'd rather hear from Llamarble first before I make judgment on him.

I've heard a lot in the silence that has been coming from him since the end of day 1.

I did not have access. I flew from here to MA, drove to Maine from there and back, flew to CA for awhile and had basically zero access, then flew back. I saw my sister graduate and helped her move, played F2F mafia, foosball, got interviewed by the AP, helped hang 300 keys from a breezeway for a Harry potter puzzle and helped set up a lazer maze. I played starfarers of Catan, Dominion, caught up with people I hadn't seen in a year, went to a ball, Caught up with Family, lost basically all excess weight from sheer activity, found 3 people interested in joining my company, saw an a capella concert, and various other things. It's not like I was posting elsewhere on the site.

Scum want to be on losing wagons that they can look like they legitimately believe in, and voting lurkers who are likely to show up and push the lynch away are good options for that.

I posit to you that the shealynch would've gone through if Amrun hadn't been V/LA at the end there, so I very much question the relevance of this.

You can get more basic than that and say his vote was key in getting Amrun lynched and in avoiding Shealynch.

TSQ's own vote wasn't even needed, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Llamarble]

Ugh, I am actually in danger of getting mislynched again.

You can still do the "post up a storm" thing if you're town, right? And why the "again" here?

Why do you think that I am scum?
Regfan dying makes sense from almost anybody, which is about the extent of what you've said D2.
Your D1 stuff is all just disagreeing with me or claiming I haven't analyzed your motivations accurately.

[Llamarble]

It wasn't inadequate, it just took a bit more time than usual to find, which wasn't something that stuck as an important part of the metaing experience. I was extremely unspecific about the metaing I did. Do you really believe I'd go back and look things up again and then give as minimal specifics as I did about it?

If you believe I'm scum here, then it's fairly obvious it's inadequate since my play here is distinctly different + year old meta is just not that reliable in general? And yes, I do believe that; it looks townier to look like you didn't look it up.

@Llamarble...what makes CES's vote/push on Shea any different than mine? I never once moved my vote after that and pushed rather consistently/hard, yet that doesn't seem to be a problem for you.

This argument was entirely retarded and I have explained why it was so. If you are unsatisfied then explain why and I shall go into greater detail.

? You answered this in #1002 and your answer was certainly meaningful enough to justify the question.

I don't think your play here is as different as you seem to. Older meta isn't nonuseful.
You think that I went back and looked things up but did not notice that they happened a long time ago?? what?

As for the second part I was looking up why people are voting me.
I meant that it was dumb when understood as a reason I was scum, not that it was a useless question.

I'm not sure what you mean about quoting acting up.

I don't feel that my reasoning has been overly simplistic, but it is true that I have not had the time to dig as deep as I normally like to. I'm starting to get there now though.
I've been on a lot of different wagons, now including both of your favorite ones other than me?
I've talked about you quite a bit. Not quite as much to you as about, but I was already starting to run low on time when the 'I should be pushing a lynch' time was going on yesterday.

[Llamarble]

Me: Do you really believe I'd go back and look things up again and then give as minimal specifics as I did about it?
You: I do believe that; it looks townier to look like you didn't look it up.
Given this and the fact that it is fairly clear I did not immediately recall how long ago the games were, you did say that.
Perhaps you meant something else?

I am not seeking to get on your good side.
I am pointing out that you saying my wagon choices have been bad doesn't make a lot of sense.
What beyond OMGUS did you mean when you said that?

Dr Who isn't insanely long ago and you have several behaviors that felt like here.
Snarky terse posting, 'nope' type posts, a scumteam call, and some vote yup let's lynch x stuff.
I didn't get any "Oh I'm wrong about this he doesn't do his townie things here as scum" from your meta so much as 'ok this pretty much fits with what he can fake', which is most of what I use meta for.

Zach's mafia world looks different than that. You are thinking about things instead of distilling down to the most basic things that you do. Certainly more different from your play this game than Dr Who.

[Llamarble]

VOTE: Benmage
THIS IS THE PATH.
Benmage has been passive all game after shifting his reads list around some on D1.
He keeps his vote on CES without pushing, CES lists him as scum without voting him.

Ben

, can you explain the Amrun, Johhog, CES and Socio town reads for me?

CES for his reasoning why Johhog is town, double confirmed them both.
Amrun because he feels genuine. I mean shit he looks real obvious.
SP gut.

He didn't read what CES said about Johhog carefully but called both of them clear town for it.
He has been buddying me for unclear reasons all game.
I haven't had access enough to be obvllamatown till now.
And he does love being scum.

Can I get some more Benmage votes or responses?
He just put poked some reads around early D1 like unwanted food and then did not care who we lynched.
And that lack of interest was despite the lynch being between Amrun and TSQ,

both of whom were in his remainder pile after labeling everybody else town.

I don't buy that much disinterest in this game being real, particularly with partners like Yos and MoS who care a lot about mafia.
Whose reads on this game we have seen nothing of, for that matter.

The whole waking the dragon thing feels like scum saying "I am going to lurk until I run up and then smash people in the face trying not to get lynched," and for some reason you should think this is town behavior.

[Llamarble]

Engineered placement of a sentence? What would even be the point of that?
It was added when I realized there was actually a legitimate possibility of me being lynched today.
Also why are you voting me and what do you think of Benmage?

Can I get some more Benmage votes or responses?

Why Benmage and not Socio?

Did you even read the sentences immediately before and after that one?

[Llamarble]

which pretty much confirms me as town simply because I don't play off the top of my head as scum when I don't recall something clearly. When I'm scum, I am very good at reconstructing a clear thought process behind everything.

Would you self-meta as scum?

I self metaed as scum in Consulmaker mafia and then said that I only use self-meta as town, but that game has been eaten by the void. I generally self meta pretty heavily when I've been run up and am running through the reasons I should be seen as town.

If you think mescum planned out intentionally saying things off the top of my head instead of refreshing my memory and then using the meta that I only behave that way as town, that is ridiculous.

[Llamarble]

I move my vote around a lot more than most people because I rethink things pretty often.
If you look at my ISO you'll note that I was wary of both of them for some time before I voted them.
I liked that the Amrun wagon was growing fast and that my vote made 3 in a row because it smashed things up and made the game less boring, which helps town. It was obviously going to get me attention, so I don't think my vote was 'convenient' at all. Same goes for my TSQ vote which came before / after I was attacking his wagon and the people on it.

Go look through my ISO. I have tried to figure out this game and have cared who got lynched.
I have been a starter or primary driver of several wagons because of this.
I've attacked and annoyed a lot of different people including hard to lynch don't-want-them-after-you players like CES.
My reads have gone back and forth on people in a way that has little or no point for scum and is hard to fake.
I think a lot of specific thought processes I've gone through are unlikely from scum and will start running through them if needbe.
These are a lot of the biggest real differences between town and scum these days, and Benmage has done zero of these things.

[Llamarble]

Captain Haddock wagon I started.
CES wagon I have been the primary pusher of all game.
And now Benmage.

[Llamarble]

Once I am threatened with being lynched, I ask people to actually read my stuff I've done and stop being stupid?
What an incredibly scummy thing to do!
Surely I haven't done that practically every time I've ever been run up as town.

That statement was more of an 'okay better get my ass in gear' than it was anything else.
My annoyance was due to the fact that I've been run up several times recently and don't really have time to properly defend myself.
I have no idea how getting people to see motivation behind posts is relevant.

Singer, starting wagons and jumping ship quickly is something I'm much more likely to do as town.
There just isn't an incentive to abandon perfectly good wagons as scum.
I've been Flaky about CES? WHAT
Maybe I Obama Peaceprized a bit on Benmage, but my point was that I have not just picked my favorite of the day's viable wagons and attempted to make a lynch out of it but rather have come to my own conclusions and tried to force them through. Benmage wagon had one vote when I joined it.
What is your opinion of Benmage and my case on him?

Zach, what do you find unimpressive about my Benmage/CES cases?

[Llamarble]

Well you may as well vote him then and deadline in a few days will make either me or him get lynched, so there's not really anything to lose.

[Llamarble]

Once I am threatened with being lynched, I ask people to actually read my stuff I've done and stop being stupid?
What an incredibly scummy thing to do!
Surely I haven't done that practically every time I've ever been run up as town.

The fact that you realize this means you can manipulate it. Haven't you heard of that opinion about meta? Once it's realized it no longer becomes relevant due to the fact that it can be manipulated, or do you not agree with the premise?

Uh, you said that I was scummy because I asked people to reread my stuff, which is just wrong. I do think self meta can be relevant when it is pervasive and hard to fake though.

Benmage's lurklurklurk oh I'm town for lurking because as scum I would care is BS.
HE CLAIMED HE PICKED THIS GAME BECAUSE HE WANTED A SKILL CHALLENGE / pure scumhunting.
I don't see following that up with not even trying to play the game.
Lurking as scum is horrible but lurking as town is fine? No.
Benmage lynch has the MoI seal of approval. Coasting while not being heavily attacked is Benmage scum.

[Llamarble]

LLD is focusing on other things than mafia right now. My QT has quieted down a bit and we're mostly playing our own games while doing our best to sanity check each others' lynches.

[Llamarble]

Hm, my last statement sounded more team-general than I intended. bleh

I think most people care a lot about team mafia.
I think Benmage cares about this game and chose to coast and cash in on the 'more active as scum' card.
He certainly has showed up when poked, which is exactly what MoI expected himscum to do.
I have played to cash in on differences between my town/scum meta before, and that's what I think he is doing.

[Llamarble]

We killed Socio last year because there was no way he was getting lynched and he was running things / had driven the lynch on DGB.
I'm not sure him wanting to lynch me/Mith even factored into it, though it may have and I am not going to go check.
The same thought process would still probably have me killing Regfan this game anyway though, so sure that kill would make sense from me, but I think it also is the most likely kill from pretty much everyone else.
Benmage and CES weren't on Regfan's DON'T LYNCH THESE PEOPLE list; they were in the lukewarm area.

[Llamarble]

A Matias or Zach lynch is more conceivable than a Regfan lynch, and Regfan is one of the few people with enough clout to get somebody like you lynched.
Also Regfan was wrong about his top scumread yesterday, so it's fairly likely he'd have rethought things.

[Llamarble]

I was trying to lynch you, obviously.

[Llamarble]

I've attacked and annoyed a lot of different people including hard to lynch don't-want-them-after-you players like CES.

P.S. this presumes that I'm town, which is weird if I'm your #1 suspect.

I am arguing that I am not scum. The people I have attacked have been uncharacteristic choices for scum.
You should know that.

I was trying to lynch you, obviously.

And yet you've made 2 arguments now in which you implicitly acknowledged that that was never going to happen.

It's not happening :today:
I normally think of my ability to make lynches happen as stronger than anyone's ability not to get lynched because that's who I am.
I haven't had as much time as I'd have liked for this game.

[Llamarble]

Zach you just put me in Benmage-hammer-range.
Please unvote and reread me some.
Just because Benmage says he doesn't think lurking is awesome scum strategy doesn't mean he wasn't scum and got lazy knowing he would have that business as justification. Lurking as town is INFINITELY lamer than lurking as scum, so him saying he finds lurking as scum lame does not make it more likely that he is town given his lurking.

[Llamarble]

Zach, as it stands, Benmage won't be lynched without Nacho, 'marble and Sociopath uniting. Llamarble doesn't look like he's bussing nor does Nacho, although to a lesser extent. Make the right call.

I think I actually would have had a pretty good chance of getting it, but I've got some cold feet regarding it now for various reasons. (1100 has some to do with it, the players on the wagon have some as well.)

Matias said he prefers a Benmage lynch, so if you vote Benmage it's just up to Sociopath.
We're still in no danger of no-lynching.

[Llamarble]

Well I was town, obviously.
I need to change my town playstyle back to what it used to be or something.

[Llamarble]

MoI says Benmage lurks as scum and him saying he doesn't is ridiculous. He also says Benmage scum complains about being called out for lurking.
LLD says Benmage is town.
MoI says CES killed Regfan for being poor-reads-unlynchable and is being pretty obvious about it.

[Llamarble]

I was really proud of starting the wagon on you.
I thought that would've given me more townpoints for driving stuff than it did.