TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[singersigner]

vote: Llamarble

[singersigner]

woo*

[singersigner]

Vote: Singersinger

White Flag's a vast departure from the theme you played last year. So why white flag this time?

I was just gunna respond with something along the lines of "cuzlolwifom" but I found a better opportunity to answer less sarcastically.

I

would

like to know what you hoped to gain from this question, and what exactly you expected my answer to be (answer below).

There's a reason why I chose Llamarble at the beginning. Scum would likely hop onto a bandwagon being pushed against someone formerly scum in a game like this in an attempt to fit in, assuming Llamarble is town (or possibly even if he's not).

This is dumb. Not everyone played in the same game or was in TM at all, so they wouldn't have any way of knowing who was what in which game. This is also a faulty theory that can't be proven (like it literally can't be proven until the end of the game, everyone flips, and we go back and analyze the very first wagon on Llamarble) and looks like you completely made it up to gain town points. Not to mention that I would seriously question someone's intelligence if that was their logic for "fitting in."

She didn't hate it enough to avoid playing it in Dram's game last year.

Do you think I'd willingly take a scum role pm?

(I'd classify my own meta the same way. Perhaps to even more of an extreme.)

You basically answered your own question. quadz was almost confirmed town last year because people know I wouldn't allow him to play scum if I could avoid it. Also, dram's theme wasn't nearly as convoluted as Vi's. You should look up my track record with how well I do in her games. >_>

Anywho, different team, different players, different preferences.

Though it's kind of weird that you brought up your own meta of not liking scum. In a weird way it sounds like you're trying to clear yourself, when with a rhetorical question like that, you make it sound like it should be obvious so you'd be "cleared" by someone else anyway, right?

Preview Edit:

I was voting Benmage because I think he would prefer a theme but would pick WF if it would allow him to be scum.

I still want to hear why he picked this game.

What would cause you to think this?
Furthermore, what are you hoping to find from his answer? (obviously if you need him to answer first, that's fine)

[singersigner]

Hell, you could go back at anytime and review the game itself. That scumteam was nominated for a scummy. There's plenty of reason to believe that Llamarble was going to be wagoned.

Are you seriously listening to yourself? A biiiiig pat on the back for Matias who correctly started a wagon on...the person he started a wagon on.

A wagon is a wagon. Pretending that you predicted some almighty scumhunting thingy ZOMGZIKNEWWHOPEOPLEWOULDVOTEFOR. Congrats, you voted for someone first and STARTED THE WAGON YOURSELF. >_>

You seem to have thought this through quite thoroughly. "What would scum do..." OH I KNOW.

unvote
vote: Matias

Preview Edit:
Well that was a cheeky response.

[singersigner]

Hell, you could go back at anytime and review the game itself. That scumteam was nominated for a scummy. There's plenty of reason to believe that Llamarble was going to be wagoned.

I really agree with Matias on this one. Anyone that played in last year's White Flag (me, Matias, singer very briefly), have an absolutely bone to pick with Llamarble.

This doesn't make sense either. This is basically like saying "we were town in that last one and you fucked us over as scum so you better not do it again." Which is something only town would say. Which doesn't follow Matias's logic at all.

HMM.

I played in White Flag because I have been trying to erase that game from existence all year and I really need to replace it with better memories. So if we lose, I hate everyone who is town. Basically.

No one asked you?

[singersigner]

Hell, you could go back at anytime and review the game itself. That scumteam was nominated for a scummy. There's plenty of reason to believe that Llamarble was going to be wagoned.

I really agree with Matias on this one. Anyone that played in last year's White Flag (me, Matias, singer very briefly), have an absolutely bone to pick with Llamarble.

This doesn't make sense either. This is basically like saying "we were town in that last one and you fucked us over as scum so you better not do it again." Which is something only town would say. Which doesn't follow Matias's logic at all.

HMM.

I played in White Flag because I have been trying to erase that game from existence all year and I really need to replace it with better memories. So if we lose, I hate everyone who is town. Basically.

No one asked you?

Why should I care if no one asked me? It's information we should be volunteering. And besides - it was meant to help explain why I agreed with Matias.

I don't really understand why you're separating Matias' logic from the logic above; they're slightly different, but come from the same place. Matias assumed that everyone else would feel the latent butthurt from the last game and decided to capitalize on it.

Do you really think scum Matias would go out of his way to explain his plan rather than go with the immediately understandable "Llamarble was scum butthurt RAWR?"

Amrun, how many people are actually playing in the same game again? Three of you? One of whom was the scum that you'd "like to get back at"? You can count me if you'd like, though I don't know why you would.

If you really said it to support your point with Matias, then I can settle with that, but don't spout shit like "this is information we should be volunteering." Nearly (I think) everyone has posted already and you're the only one who's offered up the information "voluntarily" after two people have been questioned by someone else anyway. Do you feel like everyone should've volunteered this information? Do you feel like those who haven't are scummy?

I think scum Matias would capitalize on his "plan" and continue to post how right he was and how "accurate" the outcome was. I think if it really came down to it, and if it was really such a townie thing to do, someone else could've easily pointed out how

townie

it really was.

He's tooting his own horn and it's giving me the heebeejeebees.

[singersigner]

I read both of these as "look at me and what I did and how awesome I am for doing something I'm convinced is the townie thing to do."

I'm saying that the RVS wagon at the start was most likely going to be on Llamarble, and it was. I voted first to kickstart that.

I was certain that Llamarble was going to be the first one wagoned in a sequel to the same format game last year in which he was scum. I don't like RVS.

Which actually makes me wonder...

Matias, don't you think that voting first actually skews the information you're getting? Like, I don't know about you, but all wagons form from the first vote (crazy, I know). Wouldn't your point have been better made if you waited for someone NOT in the first game to randomly vote for Llamarble and then see if a wagon formed from there? You manipulated your own theory by placing the first vote.

Preview Edit:
And yet another prime example...

But seriously, you're going on about the "RVS wagon" when you made it NOT RVS by having a specific goal in mind when you first voted, so it wasn't really random, was it? MY vote sure as hell wasn't random, but it also had nothing to do with last year's game, which immediately invalidates 1/3 of your theory.

Preview Edit Edit:
Oh hey Socio. Yes, I know what to do this time, and hopefully people won't be retarded about it

if you know what I mean

.

[singersigner]

@Matias...One of the problems I had (which Benmage noticed) was the comparison to "in a game like this" referencing Team Mafia specifically, when we have no previous meta to pull from. It's a completely fabricated

opinion

with no history to back it up. If zoraster does Team Mafia again NEXT year, however, this might hold some water if you're right.

Or do you mean in any white flag game ever?

Preview Edit:
Ok, so...I can see that, but I completely disagree with the way you went about it. Like, I feel like you really negated the outcome because you started it, but whatever, I see your point, however funny it seems.

Also, what was scummy about CES and not myself or Amrun?

Preview Edit Edit:
Woah seriously, too many lists.

Preview Edit Edit Edit:
SHUTTUP AMRUN I JUST WANT TO POST A THOUGHT AND NOT BE NINJA'D A GAJILLION TIMES.

adskjfgabldsiufghaweliugtfawret

unvote

[singersigner]

For the record, I'm still waiting for Haddock's response to my question on how he feels about CES mainly.

Let me just recap for those of you who don't get it.

So I joined this game. I looked at the thread when it started, because I've been busy with finals. I took a look at the playerlist. I saw Llamarble, but no mith or DGB. So, with that in mind, I figured that a Llamarble wagon would start because "u were totally scumzors during last WF" dumb logic. I thought, "what would scum do in this situation?" and came to the conclusion that they would most likely vote Llamarble as well to fit in. So I voted to influence a wagon on Llamarble to see who would join it.

Amrun, then singer, then CES. Zach, however, posted something that I wanted to know more about, so before I put my vote on CES, I analyzed him early game. Inconclusive, so I placed my vote on CES.

For the record, my reply to Llamarble's "scum meta" comment was sarcasm. I couldn't give a damn about what his scum meta is and my actions falling under that, because it's his scum meta, not my scum meta.

Because it got lost in NINJAS this is the post I was responding to.

[singersigner]

Also, hey Shea, yo, yo Shea, I know you're around, come play with us, aaaaayeup.

[singersigner]

Slaxx has a strong town read on DH.

Whose DH?

Matias before he changed his username/profile.

Also,

vooooote: Thestatusquo

[singersigner]

Has Shea posted yet?

Nope?

confirm vote: Thestatusquo

[singersigner]

Also, Myo says that TSQ doesn't have a lurking meta as scum, and that he generally comes off as nice and likeable as scum.

Hey folks. Had a brutal few days at work. Time to get down to bidness in this game, probably tomorrow! So excited.

>_>

Anyway, this was a LoL day for me so I'll be catching up tomorrow...also with input from ~team~.

[singersigner]

Isa claims that he complained multiple times about the White Flag setup in the chat. Why would you lie Regfan?

And yeah, I want some firm reasons as to why I'm scum because I see next to none reasons even though several people read me as such.

FoS: Johhog

Fishing around for views on self instead of scum. This most is mainly just a defense asking for reasons why people think he's scum. Also, Johhog's vote has been parked on Benmage long passed its welcome. He's given no follow up pressure or reasoning behind his vote that I can see. His posts have mainly been weak questions without follow up or anything.

I agree with all of this post. But I still think Johhog's town.

Also not feeling Johhoq-scum, just Johhoq-useless.

Not voting TSQ just for not posting.

I don't like when people have an on site presence and ignore this game. I like the fact that he's posted in the team mafia thread while continuing to not post here even less.

A thousand times this. I question Amrun's resistance to voting for Shea simply because he's not posting in this thread. She's done her "research" before and I'm questioning why she didn't do it here.

I do remember that thread you're talking about. I take that to mean he just avoids threads regardless of alignment, though.

If TSQ continues to lurk for ANYTHING like a week, then yeah, we will probably just need to take care of that. But it's been like one or two days, and I'm not ready to lynch any lurkers yet.

Socio has posted what, once, and he's not getting any attention. It's too early for lurker lynches.

But it's not too early for pressure. Socio hasn't gotten any attention because he hasn't been active elsewhere (As far as I know), whereas Shea's been active both on and off the site.

The depressing thing though, is that we LOST last years White Flag mafia as well.
So may that as it may, I am not going to make the same mistakes twice.

Key plans for the future?

Hey, I listened. But no one listened to ME.

Yeah, the town just ate itself.

Let's not let that happen this time.

I'd like to point out that I totally pointed out mith's seriously scummy switch on me after calling me town. Just because I messed up...once I flipped, you should've paid attention to who capitalized on my lynch...just sayin...
/off topic
//no need to rehash old history

Well than, my initial reasoning for thinking you were town is no longer valid.

Who else is scum with you? I have an Amrun tingle.

(You didn't answer why I was scum btw)

What was your initial reason and why did it change?

Haddock, I'm definitely pushing you. I'd just rather not lynch you immediately until all arguments are on the table for Day 2, plus, Shea hasn't even posted.

This sounds a little forced...

Oh and Socio, we want all your teams reads on this game please and thank you.

I want none of Socio's teams reads.

Why not?

Other thoughts:
Hito and I find Socio's 204=forced.
I found Regfan's 217=town.
I found Captain Haddock's 219=scum, but I was reminded about the quickness of his wagon (unlikely on scum) so I'm gunna take a closer look at that first.
Hito thinks Matias, Regfan, and Amrun are town.
Nuwen and I are convinced there's scum in the nonvoters (oh hey look!).
(I also feel obligated to note that Shea hasn't been active in scumchat at ALL today...I'm taking that as a bad sign unless he can offer some other explanation)

[singersigner]

A thousand times this. I question Amrun's resistance to voting for Shea simply because he's not posting in this thread. She's done her "research" before and I'm questioning why she didn't do it here.

What research do you think I didn't do?

Finding out if he's avoiding the thread or just not around. There were at least two other people who noticed that Shea had posted around the site but not in this thread, and you still say "I'm not going to vote for someone simply because he hadn't posted in this thread." You have now been presented with evidence that he is not just not posting in this thread, he's actively avoiding it. What do you make of that?

The most useful thing I got out of looking at the wagons was thinking about how out of place CES' vote on TSQ is.

I dig it.

Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. So not sure why you're disagreeing.

Experience reads to me as "how long you have been playing", so

I mean, it's all semantics. Johhog to me is not an easy lynch. No one is.

I just didn't feel like getting into a huge diatribe. There are lots of factors. It's not really important.


Socio, it was cute but it's getting old. There is zero reason not to share your team's reads with us. ZERO.

The fact that you believe that shows how ignorant you are. Even more so that you're missing the fact that he's totally messing with you. If you want him to talk, do something about it.



The whole Bub/Haddock thing is really hurting my head. I feel like they're both severely misguided town for pushing people who are also town. Another self-reminder to look at Haddock's wagon since I haven't done that yet.

Also mentioned that I missed earlier: Regfan, why did you ask for hito's reads specifically?

[singersigner]

Not voting TSQ just for not posting.

This is exactly what you said. Unprompted, I might add, which shows that you were at least aware that he wasn't around.

Immediately noted by Zach that it wasn't just that he wasn't posting.

To which you immediately responded with a "too scummy to be scum" dichotomy. Which is weird because you admit that you knew he wasn't just not posting in this thread, but your previous post implies that you didn't. What was it?

I don't understand why you're ignoring the obvious pressure. You are ACTIVELY avoiding it and disagreeing that it's not worth pursuing.

Stop responding with stupid insults and answer my question in the previous post. No, don't just quote what you said before. Really think about why he hasn't given an explanation to why he's been active elsewhere and not here, why you don't think that's scummy, and why you're ok with it.

[singersigner]

You squirm when poked.

I was just curious about the difference in your responses (while yes, noting that you were already talking about it--who's not reading thoroughly now?). No need to get all shouty about it.

Also, don't say "that much is obvious." It's just a poor excuse to get out of explaining your discrepancies. You should be explaining yourself thoroughly if someone is confused by what you're saying, but,

that much is obvious

.

I CAN'T respond because my response now is different than it would have been then and I don't know if I'm allowed to tell you why.

I didn't realize that your previous comment was a follow-up to your response. This was all I needed.

Though saying it gives you "zero information" means you're not trying hard enough. What did you think of CES' jump onto the wagon?

[singersigner]

So shitty life things happened last night when I expected to devote time to this game, and I've been in the process of fixing them all day while celebrating friends' graduations and whatnot. I'll be heading home tomorrow morning-ish, so expect something then. Sorry, guys.

@Llamarble...that vote seems awfully opportunistic...

[singersigner]

I have something else I want to say about it that makes me possibly doubt my own conclusion, but my team and I are checking if I'm allowed to say it.

I want to hear this if you're able.

Also let me know what you think of Benmage, he's not being mentioned much, but he's bothering me a lot.

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

Wait, are people voting TSQ? That's stupid considering all the scum in this game that are actually posting.

Are you saying you're expecting scum to be among the most active players? If so, why is that?

No, I'm saying there are scum among the players that are actually posting, so its stupid to attack people who won't respond to you when there are scummier people who will.

I might have something to say about 354 once a certain ongoing game ends.

I meant that DGB and I were the only ones (to my recollection) that still thought he was scum AFTER the tracker thing. But it's not important. I don't remember all the details.

Well, you obviously didn't get the implication I was going for. And I do believe consistency is normally a scum tell, yes. So what do you conclude from that?

UNVOTE: Benmage
VOTE: Amrun

So, sad news: I can't share why I now suspect TSQ. I don't know if I'm willing to stake his whole alignment on what I wanted to share but cannot, but it does make me lean scum on him.

I'm in basically the same situation on Johhog.

I'd pay to know what this is, it's pretty hard to defend yourself otherwise.

But I'll tell you one thing; if you suspect me for out of game reasons (lex Regfan) I'll be fucking mad post-game.

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

I think what he means is that at this point, most onlookers to the Me vs. Haddock feud would narrow it down to town vs. scum. He just believes that Haddock is the town one. I think that's based on the fact that I told Haddock to search my replies to his case, because I'm not writing them down again.

Reg: I think Benmage was 100% meta on that flip. I was scum with him during a game before, and he knows I take the convoluted route as town (I have a crazy thought process and will throw myself into blah blah blah blah, you know this, as town. However, I'm more reserved and calculated as scum)

He just recognized this meta with DemonHybrid, not Matias.

Llarmanle, Amrun isn't making up that thing about TSQ. I noticed something the same thing she did too.

I can't work out your Johhog-thing but I did go and do a meta-check through all a bunch of his games. Didn't read them in detail and only came across one scum game of his but his play here and the 'changing votes without explanation' is something he seems to tend to do as town which is mostly what I wanted to look to see if it was the case or not. I did come across this and this post of his here he states he much strongly prefers town roles, though he was scum in that game. Looked a little further and found him saying essentially the same thing in this game so I'm nowhere near as comfortable lynching him anymore.

Amrun, why have you barely talked about me since your 19th post out of 63? And why haven't you called anyone scum since then? VOTE: Amrun

This was something I noticed and have been waiting for a response from my team-mates for a while but they all seem to have gone AWOL.

Unvote, Vote: Amrun

I asked them about TSQ but didn't get an answer quite yet. I have no clue what to make of his obvlurking. I don't even know if it's even inherently scummy.

My reads are a jumble after Haddock's last post

[singersigner]

I've caught up, I just don't really have the energy to say the things I want to say re: these posts so I'm posting them as a bookmark to actually comment. Sorry I'm a useless git right now.

Still like my vote on Shea thus far, but seeing the Johhog love. Not seeing Amrun, though I understand points brought against her.

Etc, etc.

/tired

[singersigner]

Gawdfuckingdamnit.

I'm doing the additions of thoughts to my previous post of quotes as we speak.

Shea's still scumscumscum. Notice how he came back to the game RIGHT as another wagon took off. Convenient. Also, his vote on CES is and he's only reading Amrun as town to discourage her from hoping on his wagon.

In the words of Team Skittles: KILL IT, KILL IT WITH FIRE.

[singersigner]

Bolding my responses.

I have something else I want to say about it that makes me possibly doubt my own conclusion, but my team and I are checking if I'm allowed to say it.

I want to hear this if you're able.

Also let me know what you think of Benmage, he's not being mentioned much, but he's bothering me a lot.

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

I played with Benmage in Weather Mafia II (I *think* that's the only experience I've had with him) and he seemed to be just as loud and obnoxious as he is/has been here. Can you be more specific as to what feel "wrong"?

Wait, are people voting TSQ? That's stupid considering all the scum in this game that are actually posting.

Are you saying you're expecting scum to be among the most active players? If so, why is that?

No, I'm saying there are scum among the players that are actually posting, so its stupid to attack people who won't respond to you when there are scummier people who will.

I'm taking this as a very blatant defense of those being pressured for lurking. I think it's foolish to ignore the obvious need to for EVERYONE to participate in this game.

I might have something to say about 354 once a certain ongoing game ends.

I'm keeping this noted because I'm very curious what you might have to say.

I meant that DGB and I were the only ones (to my recollection) that still thought he was scum AFTER the tracker thing. But it's not important. I don't remember all the details.

Why bring up a point that's meant to support your argument and then dismiss it as unimportant because you "don't remember all the details"?

Well, you obviously didn't get the implication I was going for. And I do believe consistency is normally a scum tell, yes. So what do you conclude from that?

What was the implication you were going for?

UNVOTE: Benmage
VOTE: Amrun

Why?

So, sad news: I can't share why I now suspect TSQ. I don't know if I'm willing to stake his whole alignment on what I wanted to share but cannot, but it does make me lean scum on him.

I'm really disappointed there isn't at least something you can share that would allow us to know what you're thinking. I can't think of many things you wouldn't be able to share and most I can think of shouldn't be affecting your decision much anyway.

I'm in basically the same situation on Johhog.

I'd pay to know what this is, it's pretty hard to defend yourself otherwise.

But I'll tell you one thing; if you suspect me for out of game reasons (lex Regfan) I'll be fucking mad post-game.

This is so scummy it hurts. "I don't know why you think I'm scum but I'll be pissed if you got lucky because of something that doesn't have to do with this game.

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

I think what he means is that at this point, most onlookers to the Me vs. Haddock feud would narrow it down to town vs. scum. He just believes that Haddock is the town one. I think that's based on the fact that I told Haddock to search my replies to his case, because I'm not writing them down again.

I'd seriously rather NOT hear answers to questions specifically directed at one person, from someone else. You really need to not to that.

Reg: I think Benmage was 100% meta on that flip. I was scum with him during a game before, and he knows I take the convoluted route as town (I have a crazy thought process and will throw myself into blah blah blah blah, you know this, as town. However, I'm more reserved and calculated as scum)

He just recognized this meta with DemonHybrid, not Matias.

Again, seriously need you to stop answering for people. There's a reason people direct their questions to individuals in particular.

Llarmanle, Amrun isn't making up that thing about TSQ. I noticed something the same thing she did too.

I can't work out your Johhog-thing but I did go and do a meta-check through all a bunch of his games. Didn't read them in detail and only came across one scum game of his but his play here and the 'changing votes without explanation' is something he seems to tend to do as town which is mostly what I wanted to look to see if it was the case or not. I did come across this and this post of his here he states he much strongly prefers town roles, though he was scum in that game. Looked a little further and found him saying essentially the same thing in this game so I'm nowhere near as comfortable lynching him anymore.

Amrun, why have you barely talked about me since your 19th post out of 63? And why haven't you called anyone scum since then? VOTE: Amrun

This was something I noticed and have been waiting for a response from my team-mates for a while but they all seem to have gone AWOL.

Unvote, Vote: Amrun

I honestly wish I knew why I pointed this out...

I asked them about TSQ but didn't get an answer quite yet. I have no clue what to make of his obvlurking. I don't even know if it's even inherently scummy.

My reads are a jumble after Haddock's last post

Do you think anything else about his play is scummy?

[singersigner]

What is there to answer? Those are stupid side snipes that mean nothing.

The 'snipes' don't mean nothing and had he not asked you 'who' you were referring to when you said 5 or so other players have done the same thing as you regarding being very active but not stating scum reads I would have asked it. I do want it answered.

I do think that ces making a comment like "shea lurks as scum." is something to look at because frankly, I think it's incredibly untrue, so I don't understand what basis he would have for such a claim unless he was inventing a case out of whole cloth to push on me.

Okay, I get it he stated that you lurk as scum and you don't think you do. That means very little to me, you don't have to post an entire reads list from town-> scum (Though I do think everyone doing so is actually optimal play but that's something for MD not here) but I do want to see a fuckload more content and reads from you.

Also I've narrowed down the pool of people I think are possibly scum to [Amrun, TSQ, Zach, Socio, Llarmable].

How can you possibly narrow down to just 5 possible subjects in 20 pages? You either are the most fantastic scum hunter that ever lived, or you are willfully blinding yourself to other possibilities. I understand the sentiment of, say "I am willing to lynch any of these X people today because I find them the most suspicious." but that's not the way you parsed it, and furthermore, your "list of people who could possibly be scum." seems to oddly parallel those that have been found suspicious of others.


Tell me this, if you have concluded that the people who are possibly scum are in that list of 5 people, then what caused you to discount the other 7 people? Why can't they be scum?

This is the only post in your ISO that DOESN'T have to do with you (minus one calling Amrun town?). Why is defending yourself the only important thing, when, as you say, you're not even "up on the chopping block" as far as you're concerned. If you don't think you're going to be lynched, then why is most of your attention on yourself?

See, the problem is no long that you're lurking, but that you're not contributing while insisting that you are, only concerned with yourself while claiming that you're posting "content," and repeating the same arguments...probably to make it look like you're posting more content than you are.

I'd really like you to address the questions that have been posed to you thus far, Shea, because I see you decided they were worth skipping.

[singersigner]

Reading up on the last four pages. I'm beginning to think Johhog's pretty damn scummy, too.

[singersigner]

I'm curious as to what GreyICE doesn't like about shitty life things happening to me...

Oh wait, I bet I can guess.

[singersigner]

(woah, I'd been working on this post since last night, came in as read the last page today, and got my own ninja...weird...)

Hey Bub, why would your team send you out as town?

I'm stuck in a massive town losing streak. Due to the tigerpocalypse it's hard to tell how large exactly, but I think it's 6-8 town losses in a row. I just can't seem to figure out how to hunt for scum. I don't get lynched, because I've learned how play "townie" (hence my much higher scum win percentage), but I just can't find scum.

Right now I'm on a mafia break, and when I get back into a mafia game, I want my town game to be better than it is now. Is there any hope for me?

This is actually a good point. I feel as though his answer (I don't like themes, etc) doesn't really cover the options of the other two that are not themed.

I'm interested in a lot of this. Can you provide meta of shea lurking as scum (and any countermeta), for reference? Why do you think him picking White Flag is suspect?

See this post + Glrok told me he does. Him picking White Flag is suspect because I wouldn't really expect him to play in this one (also not to the extent that they'd pick it #2 at the draft) whereas it does seem to fit Ellibereth and Porochaz to a lesser extent. Ellibereth definitely prefers town, Poro I think does too and shea, if he doesn't prefer scum, at least is better at scum, so it would make sense for shea to grab this game if it had a scum PM.

I'm surprised at the post you linked to, but it would make sense with the way that he's been acting. He was allowed to lurk (people kept saying they weren't going to vote an MIA, even for pressure), so he did. Though "Glork said so" should probably be backed up with something, otherwise it's going to be just as empty as you saying "I just know, ok?!?"

Just give us a full read list, please.

So demanding. Also, stupid. How can you expect a full list if he's not even read the game to this point (as he says). The only way he could do that is if you assume he's been keeping up with the game, but deliberately not posting--how does that read to you?

In other news: my team and I are pretty on board with similar town reads, and that's awesome.

Kublai Kahn thinks Sociopath's noncontribution is bullshit and he deserves to be lynched for it, or voted until he stops.

What's the difference between Shea's noncontribution and Socio's, and why should only one of them be pressure voted for it and not the other?

Well, you could comment on it instead of ignoring it, now that you've figured out what I'm talking about.

You could comment on a lot of things in this game, instead of ignoring 80% of what has been going on...unless you haven't figured out what we're talking about...

Johhog, for real? that post is so bad. TSQ HAS provided content. He hasn't walled us to death, but he's here and trying to participate. He hasn't had a chance to read the backlog. What a copout.

Oh...oh gawd...it hurts. It hurts so bad...

You should really ISO him and point out

exactly

what content Shea's posted thus far that HASN'T had to do with himself. Please. Please do so and show me more than two posts he's made with anything other than I'M NOT LURKING ANYMORE SO ANY VOTES ON ME FOR LURKING ARE ST00PID (hint: I doubt any votes on him are for lurking now so he sure as hell think of a difference argument).

My teammates reads so far:

Rhinox says that scum is within Haddock, Benmage, Zach, TSQ. However, I don't think I agree with these. Reg, Amrun and Bub are town to him, the rest are null/lean town. I agree with Reg and Bub, not so much Amrun, who I'm still neutral with.

None of his reads are really strong except for Reg, Amrun and Bub. The TSQ read may be out of date.

iam and Fonz are still reading.

Don't disagree with your teammates publicly. This looks like a bad hydra getting away with having every read on everyone so ultimately they could say one of them was right.

To be fair, CES was an example, but it doesn't ring any less bullshit bells when it comes to his reasons on setting up his out on the TSQ wagon.

I want Johhog hung.

I agree with bullshit bells, but I'd rather see Shea hung first.

I seriously don't get the connection of TSQ's lurking to some ulterior motive, like wagons or whatever. I don't like this wagon pushing and I don't like the multiple people skirting around his lurking being "scummy"

Dude. You and Amrun, I swear... Just look at Shea's timing of entering the game. The "content" he claims he's posted since he came here. The misplaced defense of his "lurker wagon." The way people have avoided him like the plague. Tell me, do you think lurking is ok for anyone to do? Would you allow anyone to get away with it? What about when they come back? You the one who immediately pressed him for something,

anything

of value. Has he given that to you? Are you fully satisfied with his presence in the game?

If you answer "yes" to any of these, sdfjanbzl;ksnim fa;kdgjanerlgkjh.

I am also fairly confident that mattias is town. Gut read. I like his posts, and almost every one of them is one I would make myself.

Oh this is just BAD. How is this a

gut read

if you would make almost every one of his posts yourself...as...town? Question mark? Do you not feel that his posts are exactly the ones that you would be making town-aligned? So does that not give you something more than a "gut read" on Matias?

@singer's address to me re: the thing about Benmage: I did NOT bring anything about Benmage up to strengthen any point of mine. I was asked point blank about my experience and success with reading Benmage as scum.

Yes, so you made statements about it supporting your experience, which you then can't back up later because "you don't remember all that well." Don't say shit like "I was one of the two people who still thought blahblahblah" when you're only going to admit that you don't actually remember. Admit you don't remember, or

do your research

.

Oh wow, I just noticed that all of CES' top scumreads are on him now. That is fascinating.

It is, and a good thing to point out. It don't really know what I make of it, though, as I disagree with at least one of his scumreads (Benmage I have to reread after you brought up this next comment).

Bolding my responses.

I have something else I want to say about it that makes me possibly doubt my own conclusion, but my team and I are checking if I'm allowed to say it.

I want to hear this if you're able.

Also let me know what you think of Benmage, he's not being mentioned much, but he's bothering me a lot.

Well I'll just say I've played in several games with Benmage and his play in this game just feels wrong on just about every level.

I played with Benmage in Weather Mafia II (I *think* that's the only experience I've had with him) and he seemed to be just as loud and obnoxious as he is/has been here. Can you be more specific as to what feel "wrong"?

Since you brought this up now, I'd strongly disagree with that assertion.

Aaaaand now I'm going to reread, because I'll admit it was the feeling I got when he entered the game, but since he's needed to be prodded, I realize I haven't actually felt his presence in a while. The last exchange with you two, though, supports your assertion that he has not been the same as WMII. I don't exactly buy the whole "awaken the dragon" bit because in WMII he was definitely obnoxious of his own volition, and not because of anyone poking him.

Because it suggests he was waiting for that type of opportunity where he can just come in and respond to something. Like a pouncing tiger.

^5

[singersigner]

Yes it's a wall, suck it. I shouldn't get any further behind now because I'm all caught up (and don't need to catch up more, as the case was).

Also, Johhog gets a few extra town points for bringing up Benmage's bullshit with not calling Shea scum, when he clearly did.

@Matias...how do you feel about Benmage?

[singersigner]

Yes, I plan on letting myself get away with lurking.

As I suspected.

Oh well. You coming to SoL?

Preview Edit:
I was going to point that out, but his answer specifically notes that he doesn't like themes, when there are two other non-themed game options. It just seems weird that we would make such a big deal out of being so bad at town...

[singersigner]

I laughed out loud.

[singersigner]

lol, Amrun, you always resort to fear mongering instead of simply answering questions posed to you. Why? Am I "scummy" for not seeing the difference?

You're letting Socio troll you and it's

hilarious

.

Also, I understand your point about Johhog; however, you DID argue that Shea has provided content (as I had quoted), so I asked you to show me where. Please do so.

Preview Edit:
@Johhog...I *facepalmed* too. >_>

[singersigner]

Basically it comes down to this: Shea just said that the lurking case on his was bullshit, and now that he was around and posting, he should be lynched because of lurking...but the only things he was posting AT THAT TIME were defenses of his lack of lurking. It's a twisted circle, and I haven't seen him provide anything that's worthy of labeling as "content."

[singersigner]

unvote; vote: Zach

Why are you voting for somebody that you aren't sure is scum four days until deadline. I really don't like how your vote has been parked on the easiest wagon to get on.

Has Shea posted yet?

Nope?

confirm vote: Thestatusquo

Sure he has, if you're counting posts that aren't being made in this game.

Unvote: Vote: Thestatusquo

That was made on May 8. That vote has been there ever since, and it was after the wagon had started. That vote has been totally useless for over a week.

So your solution is to start a completely new wagon four days from deadline?

[singersigner]

Actually, a few things:

1. Do you think Shea is town?

2. Does not moving his vote make Zach scum?

3. Why do you think it's the easiest wagon?

[singersigner]

Actually, a few things:

1. Do you think Shea is town?

2. Does not moving his vote make Zach scum?

3. Why do you think it's the easiest wagon?

1. Yes
2. Partially
3. Because shea couldn't defend himself. Its the path of least resistance.

1. Why?
2. Better question: is Zach scum? What else other than him not moving his vote makes him scum?
3. Like Zack said, this is no longer valid reasoning because he's been around and posting actively (however empty) in this thread. CES and I have also not budged this entire time, and yet you're not criticizing our votes on the "easy" wagon.

[singersigner]

@Amrun...
"I have no read on Socio because he's making it fucking impossible, and I don't like that." Uh, yes, I believe he's trolling you.

Also, I never said you didn't answer the question, I said you had to resort to "WOW YOU MUST BE SUPER STUPID OR SUPER SCUMMY FOR NOT SEEING THIS." I'm tired of you saying everything is so fucking obvious and trying to use it as an excuse not to answer something, and then when you DO answer, you make it seem like the end of the world because, oh no, someone didn't know what you meant. Get off it woman.

Also, let's analyze those quotes, shall we?

Quote #1: "since when do I lurk as scum" is clearly in defense of himself. He lurked in WMII. There, example numero uno.

Quote #2: He hasn't even read the first 20 pages where Regfan is clearly scumhunting and showing his PoE of who he finds scummiest and who he finds town. This is an empty toss OF NOTHING into thin air that was able to trick you into thinking it was scumhunting (though I'm not surprised).

Quote #3: Stating an empty town read with nothing to back it up =/= scumhunting/content. Please don't be so naive to think it does.

Quote #4: Telling someone to comment on something when there have been questions posed to him in the pages of the game

that he hasn't even read yet

is not content. If anything it's hypocritical because he's ignored points brought up about him (that are not exclusively lurking related).

Please explain to me how Johhog's attack would still be "100% invalid" in your eyes if you didn't mistakenly see these posts as "content-worthy." Johhog's attack was "you're suspected because you're not posting content." Um, yes, Zach and I have both admitted (I don't remember if CES did or not) that we were no longer voting for Shea because he was lurking, but because he lacked content. So.

[singersigner]

Amrun finds me scummyyyyy...why, because I don't see these "obvious" things, as obvious as she does? Or because I keep pointing out when she's clearly misguided?

@Amrun...since when did you find Shea so scummy? You realize that two other people in your suspect pool are fighting quite hard to get a third one lynched, right? What does that tell you of the three of our alignments?
Also, where did Johhog say that he was providing content? Like, does he ever literally say "hey, I'm providing content guyz"?

@Regfan...can we pleasepleaseplease lynch Shea first? As shitty as her play's been so far, I'm having a hard time grasping at its scumminess outside of her connection to Shea. Basically Shea is scum regardless of Amrun's alignment, and I'd really like to see him flip first.

[singersigner]

My activity will be somewhat low this weekend as I'm visiting my family back home, but I'll still be able to check in on my phone and switch my vote if I have to (though I'd really prefer not to). I'd be ok lynching Shea (obvobv), then CES, then Amrun, though I'd prefer not to lynch either of those two. I'm just not feeling a Johhog lynch, as I feel there'd be just about nothing but a flip to gain from it. Anyone wanting to lynch Zach is just...bad...just bad.

[singersigner]

@Amrun...how do you not understand my question? It's pretty straight forward and the answer is QUITE obvious if you ask me.

[singersigner]

But really, you said that Johhog wa berating Shea for not posting content, while Johhog isn't posting content of his own.

The difference is that Johhog's never claimed to be posting all of this SUPER AWESOME content while Shea proclaimed it every other post.

Also, you never responded to/commented on my breakdown of the "content" posts by Shea you provided.

[singersigner]

Hey, I've read. I owe you guys some serious analysis, and that will happen before today (as in, this real life day, not the mafia day) is out.

Sorry about my work life being terrible

I look forward to it.

I'm also curious as to why Amrun was the only person SocioPath bothered voting yesterday.

[singersigner]

I'm tired of empty promises from Shea. He promised his catch up analysis last night and what did he do

for hours

instead? JUST GUESS.

I was willing to be patient, but enough's enough.

vote: Thestatusquo

[singersigner]

Again, the shea wagon would be dumb. He's sort of useless this game. He is NOT scummy.

Can you point to where it's ok to coast throughout an entire game while making empty promises that you'll contribute? I don't know about you, but this is fucking ridiculous. Get him to replace the fuck out. I don't care. I just know I'm not about to let someone just ride the follies of people defending his lack of participation. He needs to hang. Now.

[singersigner]

I'm tired of empty promises from Shea. He promised his catch up analysis last night and what did he do

for hours

instead? JUST GUESS.

I was willing to be patient, but enough's enough.

vote: Thestatusquo

Also, the answer to that is "talk my mother out of kicking my brother out of the house."

But sure, just guess. Singer, I like and respect you a lot, but never presume to know everything about what is going on in other peoples lives. It breeds resentment and hurt feelings. I fucked up with this game, but that comment is out of line.

If you wanna play that game, can you simultaneously talk your mother out of kicking your brother out of the house and be in scumchat talking about this girl who won't get back to you about an "adventure" you were planning on taking her on THE NIGHT YOU PROMISE A CATCH UP ANALYSIS. No. You made a fucking commitment. Don't talk about "my mother this" while you plan a date the same night you promised content. Or were you planning on simultaneously doing those things together as well?

Fucking-A. All we wanted was an excuse, an explanation, something,

anything

, to offer up why you received three prods D1, why you didn't deliver last night, why you didn't replace out sooner. But you continue you waste our time, talk in circles, No, he overstepped his welcome. Sorry replacement, you can feel free to blame Shea for not even giving you a chance to pretend you're town.

[singersigner]

singer, you just killed your town read with that post though, honestly.

I'm starting to see you, socio and benmage.

I killed a town read by wanting to threaten him with the lynch I'd been pushing for the past two days so he'd either post content or replace out...which I've been saying for the past two days?

UR SO GUD AT MAFIA.

He's scum, get over it. I caught him in a boldface BULLSHIT OF AN EXCUSE. Don't even bother with the replacement. Lynch his ass.

[singersigner]

Again, the shea wagon would be dumb. He's sort of useless this game. He is NOT scummy.

Can you point to where it's ok to coast throughout an entire game while making empty promises that you'll contribute? I don't know about you, but this is fucking ridiculous. Get him to replace the fuck out. I don't care. I just know I'm not about to let someone just ride the follies of people defending his lack of participation. He needs to hang. Now.

If you'll note, I was questioning YOU about what kind of commitment to a game YOU'RE willing to deal with (which you ignored). If you need him to replace out to pay attention to the slot, then fine, but he needs to die regardless of who takes over. He's scum, plain and simple.

People aren't seeing how fucking scummy he is with his claims of "content" and bullshit excuses,

which is why I want him dead

, but worse is that they aren't even looking at the fact that he's done NOTHING in this game. Pressure votes get people to talk or figure their shit out and replace out. You've been willing to do neither: see that he's scummy, or pressure him enough to get his shit together.

[singersigner]

FFS, it wasn't even "I want him to replace out or die" it was "I want you to figure out what the fuck you're willing to pay attention to but either way he needs to die."

Fucking read.

[singersigner]

Promising content and not delivering while giving false excuses as to why IS scummy, though. It's like you didn't even read the post that very clearly called him out on a BOLD FACED LIE.

Taking a leaf out of Shea's book, ask yourself what the SCUM motivation is for Shea's play. For his absence, lies, and talking in circles about the "content" he's been posting. It's very clearly motivated by a scum role PM. He cay say work got in the way all he wants, but his timing is suspect, he lied about LAST night's absence, and the way that he's been clearly online and available to contribute to this game since day fucking one is telling of the fact that he can't even defend against something he knows is true. Life gets hard. I get it. But don't pretend that you haven't had the time when you clearly have. Own up to it.

[singersigner]

Ninja'd. Yes. I feel that if his team even got ONE scum PM, Shea would've been the first to hop on it knowing how cocky he feels about his play.

For the record, I don't think Shea's lying about his mom. I hope no one thinks I'm attacking him for that, and I apologize if I came across that way. What I think is bullshit is the fact that when he promised content yesterday, he was proclaiming the date he was making with this one girl in scumchat (during the time I assumed he would've been working on his analysis), and up for hours talking with various people in scumchat, shootin' the shit, doing whatever he was doing. I was more than willing to wait to vote him if he felt he could supply something that would prove me wrong in all my suspicions, but...welp.

The fact is he comes in with this story about his mom, which sucks, I get it, but to blame it solely on that when he clearly had another agenda and other availability to provide this analysis is scummy as fuck.

Preview Edit:
I fucked up because I want Shea lynched and I seem to be the only person who fucking gets it? (that's not entirely true, Regfan was behind me after Amrun, and Zach still gets it--also, false, CES never said he doesn't care about Shea, he just said not til tomorrow)

Matias...why do you now think that Shea's an "easy lynch" when you're so clearly convinced that he's town? Does that not imply that you see and realize that he's scummy as fuck? Let me tell you, I've seen Shea play scum and he's pulling the same fucking "lurk if I can, rhetoric, rhetoric, rhetoric" bullshit he did in Weather Mafia II (which I thought I mentioned at the end of D1, but couldn't mention until the game was over). Can you show me examples of where he does this as town?

And yes I've argued how it's SCUMShea doing this. My entire fucking case is built on how Shea is fucking doing this because he's scum. What's his town motivation for omitting reasons why he hasn't been around? For wasting almost three weeks' worth of time on scumchat instead of devoting it to a game he committed to? For publicly advocating that lurking is ok as long as you can get away with it. People like you are EXACTLY why he could get away with it.

Also, no, you're reading, fine, but please

understand

it. I never said I actually wanted him replaced. I said the town should at the very least pressure him into getting replaced instead of letting him continually slide into the back burners.

[singersigner]

Please, show me the TOWN motivation for his actions, and how that disagree with scum's actions.

[singersigner]

While you're at it, can you please explain singerscum motivation for tunneling on Shea, this supposed "easy lynch," when there were clearly several other "easier" lynches yesterday and at least one today?

It's like you're making shit up and it's annoying because my whole team thinks you're town and convinced me to back off of you yesterday because they showed me where we were misunderstanding each other. Geebus, maybe they'll be kind enough to do it again.

[singersigner]

I want to know why wanting a player replaced out and wanting a slot dead is not something that contradicts each other in the sense of "I think it's the player" and "I don't think it's the player, it's the alignment".

You keep saying that

*I*

was the one who wanted him to replace out, which is why you're having conflicting reads. Just because you continue to misread/misinterpret what I said, and repeat it over and over again, doesn't make it true.

It basically boils down to this: I wanted votes on him. I was telling people to pressure him into either replacing out or give me something that would change my mind. I really don't understand how you're still not understanding that after I've said it at least twice (three times) now.

It's like you're trying to capitalize on seeing one thing that you see as a contradiction, while not reading anything else I've said. You certainly haven't bothered responding to anything other than saying BUT SEE HERE IN THIS ONE POST.

[singersigner]

I'll have my own thoughts re: your Amrun comments later, but I'm traveling straight for the next two days (driving 8 hours today, then flying 14 hours tomorrow), so it'll have to wait til I have internet again. I'm already late. >_>

[singersigner]

Oh look, nachomamma is posting a lot more than TSQ, how

strange

, right singer?

He made one post?

So strange...

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. He's basically called 5 people town-prob town, none of which included one of the most obviously town players in the game (in fact, he attacked him in his post).

Also, I see you've changed your stance to me ASKING him to replace out to me being WILLING to have him replace out. Sure, I'm willing to have anyone replace out if the situation calls for it. That doesn't mean I'm going to find his slot any less scummy all things considering (half of which you are not). Yes, I said Shea could

possibly

change my mind if he delivered, but he didn't, in any way, shape, or form.

Also, also, I'd like to know what you have to say AFTER rereading the argument.

[singersigner]

In any case, Zach, Matias, Johhog, Falcon, and Bub are my strongest town reads that are in all honestly not likely to change. I'd like to hear what Socio has to say about the happenings of Day 1, most importantly where he's placing his vote. Rereading Benmage after what Zach had to say about him.

CES, Llamarble, Socio, and Benmage are the people I'd like to hear most from today.

Nacho...sorry dude, that first post wasn't very convincing...

[singersigner]

EBWOP: he stated 6 town reads, my bad.

Also, I'm mooching off of crappy airport internet, and my flight's about to board, so see you guys on Sunday.

Nacho, it's still worth catching up. I'd really like to hear what you have to say about the rest of the game.

I'd also like to hear what everyone's opinion of Socio is at this point in the game.

[singersigner]

BAH ALSO REREADING REGFAN LAST POST I SWEAR.

[singersigner]

CES. Rectify this statement in terms of what your teammates have stated within the last 4 hours with relation to this specific tell.

I think it's mostly null with a team like Captain's. Like I said, you need to have beliefs about how the team assigns its role PMs before you can really draw meaningful conclusions from it.

And where did you say this exactly?

I was referring to the comment you quoted. ("There are scenarios where team mates flipping scum or town would be meaningful, but I really don't see how Captain Ajax's alignment is supposed to be linked to Captain Falcon's. It's null.")

Yup.

You die.

Confirm vote: CES

Wait, I don't get it. What did you conclude from his answer?

(airport internet so trolly. Must. Post. From. Phone)

[singersigner]

Adjusting sleep schedule. -_- Asked team about Socio's post/vote.

[singersigner]

Voting doesn't break rules, just do that and the train of thoughts will follow.


As far as who is scummy, I think that Socio guy is scummy as hell.
He has lurked all game, and hasn't provided much content. (if ANY real content)
Hasn't been helpful at all, hasn't been cooperative with the town and clear townies out there.
Still alive D2 despite being on the returning champion's team with all the insight and knowledge that goes with that.
Has said ONE WORD today so far, which only looks to have been said to dodge prods.

I'm sure someone can come up with a better case for this guy.
I think a wagon on him would be very beneficial at this point to see where everyone stands and why.

Anyone who has called him town is scummy as hell, that is for sure.

BUT ENOUGH ABOUT THAT.

So I get that you were downsizing your play D1; was catching everyone calling you town for no reason part of the plan?

[singersigner]

I can't explain without point deductions.

Let me just say CES has two different opinions.

I'm tired of people using ~reasons unknown~ to either vote for someone or call them scummy (Amrun did this yesterday). If that's the only thing you have going for you and you can't even explain it, then how is that ANY better than someone who places an empty vote?

As far as who is scummy, I think that Socio guy is scummy as hell.
He has lurked all game, and hasn't provided much content. (if ANY real content)
Hasn't been helpful at all, hasn't been cooperative with the town and clear townies out there.
Still alive D2 despite being on the returning champion's team with all the insight and knowledge that goes with that.
Has said ONE WORD today so far, which only looks to have been said to dodge prods.

Add "goes after easy targets" to that list. Matias is probtown.

How in the world is going after Matias an "easy target"? You admit he's one of the towniest players, by far...would that not mean it would be even harder to convince people to lynch him?

Did SocioPath regurgitate a read from mid Day 1 that is 100% outdated, using it as a vote for early to mid Day 2?

..Socio, do you really have nothing else to say about anyone else?

It's not the read, it's the contradiction. Reads can change and not be indicative of alignment, but making contradictions while making/changing them is scummy.

Also, if that has anything to do with my lynching Amrun, remember that my vote on Amrun was not ideal in the slightest. It was just the only one I could compromise on, because like fuck was I going to lynch TSQ.

And I still don't understand how you weren't willing to take a second look at it. Especially today when I called him out on a lie that you're still disregarding. You also haven't given me evidence of Shea acting like this as town when you say it's not indicative of alignment...even though I've asked twice now.

Sorry about not posting. I've been following the game, but I don't really have much to say when my number 1 scumread right now is lurking. Do you hear that Llmarble? Get the fuck in here.

Also, socio's reads are total bullshit. He called two the consensus most townie players scumbuds. But to me, it almost seems like Socio's trying to make himself look townie by saying stuff that scum would "never" say. Like calling himself scummy. Like attacking two players with no votes on them. It really seems forced to me, but that's just a gut read

Matias, yes. You, no.

I have a bad gut feeling of the Llamarble wagon and I think it might be scum driven (I think the case is weak and there was no wagon yesterday).

I'll also ask yet again why SocioPath isn't scum, because to me his lurking was ten times worse than TSQ's lurking but despite this TSQ was the only one to get called out for it.

Because SHEA'S lurking was SCUMMY. Socio wasn't ignored by any means, and he certainly was called scummy for it a couple times. I just believe that Socio had town motivation for doing so, and Shea had scum motivation for doing so (which I've pointed out several times).

If Regfan had 6 strong correct townreads, then he would defend him. Killing him gets suspicion thrown on me and llamarble, and it means that scum can safely push people in that pool of 6 without getting too much shit for it.

see: Sociopath.

This is shit. There was suspicion on BOTH of you from the start of D1, and as far as I can see, no one's even attributed the suspicion on the two of you today as being a result of the night kill (please correct me if I missed something). Sluffing off the suspicion on you to the night kill is 100% wrong.

All that love from Nacho and he can't even look me in the eyes.

And?

Don't act so confused. Benmage ain't doing shit, and that's not the Benmage I know.

Are there any examples of ScumBenmage acting like that? (Hint: the answer is no)

Any examples of TownBenmage acting lackadaisical? (Hint: Yep)

I was wrong. The only experience with you (that I can remember) is from Weather Mafia II where you were town, and I must've gotten a weird vibe from you at the beginning, because Zach's right, this isn't the aggressive town Benmage I saw there (sleeping dragon aside >_>). Can you give me evidence of you doing this as town?

unvote; vote: zach

That case on nacho is terrible. The whole thing is total fluff that's been trumped up with quotes to make it look like something. It basically boils down to "y u voting me when u say socio scum, too." Which is stupid. The whole case is OMGUS.

Zach's already pointed out why this is the worst ever. He's had suspicion on Nacho's slot since the beginning of time, so if anything Nacho's case is OMGUS. Just because you don't place the first vote, doesn't mean you weren't the first to cast suspicion.

Ok, so I know Nacho's been doing catchups in walls (as have I), but I haven't read his and Zach's exchange in full yet. I DID note the spoiled thing in his most recent post, and to be fair Zach was the first one to bring up that Shea was posting around the site but not in this game. I had only his activity in scumchat to reference. There was another thing that I noticed but I can't remember it right now.

Notes:
-Amrun's something that I need to reread or do something about that I'm too lazy to go back and see what Matias was talking about again...
-Nacho/Zach stuff that I'm too lazy to read right now.

Oh, and this CES wagon is crap, too.

[singersigner]

Also, it's funny that Nacho and Zach used the same reasons for not switching votes (only have one). lulz.

Also, also, Nacho, I'd like to know what you think of the CES wagon.

[singersigner]

1. Showing how wrong someone is doesn't make a case, but if being wrong makes them scummy, then you sure as hell better vote/suspect them. You basically just slung suspicion on him without acknowledging there was still purpose to his line of questioning/poking/etc.

2. Did you see me unvote?

Though I do agree with wondering why Llamarble felt the need to specify that he could provide "proof" of his absence...

[singersigner]

Though I do agree with wondering why Llamarble felt the need to specify that he could provide "proof" of his absence...

Less bothered by that than I am the sheer emptiness of his play today.

What do you think of Socio's "emptiness" of play, with no explanation, nor offer of any reason for his absence/lack of participation?

For the record, Zach was not the only one who disagreed with the Amrun wagon, nor was he the only one to express its shittiness.

@CES...what do you think of Nacho's play today? You dropped Shea's push yesterday for Llamarble today...what's different now?

This whole argument re: Benmage coloring Shea in red when everyone else in red was a scum read and then claiming to never say/think Shea was scum is ridiculous. No he did not EXPLICITLY SAY that those in red were scum, but any reasonable person would assume that's what he was talking about when everyone else was mild-null scum. I could be convinced to move to Benmage today.

[singersigner]

The path I don't like is instead of trying really hard to find the scummiest scumbag and lynch them and then compromising as lynchtime approached, you voted for the easier lynch on a lurker for a long time which had no votee to respond and made the day more boring. So you were practical about lynchchoice prematurely and impractical about helping smash things up / making the day useful.

I think keeping the pressure up on shea was plenty useful - certainly more useful than a lone vote on you or benmage (second vote on benmage, I think, but no meaningful associated pressure). It's not like I had shea that much lower on the totemscum pole either +

pretty sure I got pretty close to grinding out a Shealynch.

@Llamarble...what makes CES's vote/push on Shea any different than mine? I never once moved my vote after that and pushed rather consistently/hard, yet that doesn't seem to be a problem for you.

bolded:

You certainly got SO CLOSE. -_-

My #3 and #4 reads are also inactive fucks, 'marble, so what do you expect from me?

@CES...what do you think of Nacho's play today? You dropped Shea's push yesterday for Llamarble today...what's different now?

My read on that slot has only strengthened. But I've always had both of them as scum; I just went after Shea Yesterday because Llamarble didn't seem feasible.

I'm assuming this means you find him equally, if not more, scummy...though maybe I shouldn't assume because clearly that upsets people >_>). Do you not feel a Nacho lynch is equally feasible today? What about his play do you find scummy?

@Socio...I'm not quite sure I follow this:

There are several players, whom, if called town by a player, that player is more likely to be scum.

It works the same way if they call me scum.

[singersigner]

Oh...I was talking about Nacho the whole time...

But ok, same page...understood, and agree re: attack on Zach.

unvote

Now that I've been paying more attention to Benmage, I could strongly be convinced of Benmagescum. I don't like that he lumped Shea in with "others" while proclaiming that 3/4 "others" were scum reads (colors aside), then denying any sort of a read on Shea.

@Zach...I feel like we could learn information from 3/4 of those...I have a fairly strong town read on Socio, and while I felt that he was entirely accurate last year, I don't feel like lynching him is the right choice. I'd rather lynch Bub, in all honesty.

vote: Benmage

[singersigner]

Also, I don't think anyone noticed this, but for the sake of less confusion later, in my post 976, I meant that he was calling everyone else mild-null TOWN*, not scum.

[singersigner]

@Llamarble...what makes CES's vote/push on Shea any different than mine? I never once moved my vote after that and pushed rather consistently/hard, yet that doesn't seem to be a problem for you.

[singersigner]

This just in: CES reads are Nuwen-approved.

unvote
vote: Llamarble

Nacho can wait til tomorrow even though I'm grumpy that this slot is getting away yet again.

[singersigner]

I find that usually if two people are doing the "same thing," people are at least able to distinguish between the two and comment on them accordingly. At least Nacho had specified why he felt Zach was different than me, even though I thoroughly disagree, whereas you simply brought up one person. It seemed suspicious that you DID only bring up one of us.

It sounds like you think me asking "why him and not me" was completely irrelevant, though.

[singersigner]

Okay, right now I think singer, matias, nacho, falcon, and johhog are town.

I could be convinced to lynch any of zach, llamarble, CES, socio, or benmage, with a preference to zach or llamarble.

You could just hop on Llamarble's wagon since it's the only viable lynch of the options you've provided for yourself.

[singersigner]

He has the :SHIFTY EYES:

[singersigner]

I have been a starter or primary driver of several wagons because of this.

Can you list exactly what wagons you feel you've had a crucial part in starting and/or pushing?

[singersigner]

Captain Haddock wagon I started.
CES wagon I have been the primary pusher of all game.
And now Benmage.

I completely disagree with Benmage. I really feel like Johhog has been both the primary starter and pusher of that wagon.

Captain Haddock, you started, but also jumped ship relatively quickly...to Shea, whom you left for Amrun as soon as Shea's wagon was bigger than hers.

I'll admit that you have been focused on CES at least somewhat the whole time, you've also been very flaky about him.

[singersigner]

@Socio...I'm not quite sure I follow this:

There are several players, whom, if called town by a player, that player is more likely to be scum.

It works the same way if they call me scum.

Scum call certain people town to keep them at bay and off of their asses.
Or use it to blindly dismiss a scum buddy.
Regardless of how that "town" player is behaving.

Its one of the reasons why I love lists of reads from peoples so much.

Can you explain what your reasoning is for voting people who have exclusively called you scummy, then? It seems like it would be the opposite, as in, you're looking for the people who dismiss you as town for seemingly no reason...

[singersigner]

I'm noticing a distinct avoidance of the llamarble wagon from very distinct people. Nacho, why is that the one post that's causing you to change your vote from Zach? What about his posting makes Benmage scum? Why does llamarble "doing something" make him less scum than someone who's not around/posting crap? Does that make Socio scum for the same reasons?

[singersigner]

I'm noticing a distinct avoidance of the llamarble wagon from very distinct people. Nacho, why is that the one post that's causing you to change your vote from Zach? What about his posting makes Benmage scum? Why does llamarble "doing something" make him less scum than someone who's not around/posting crap? Does that make Socio scum for the same reasons?

[singersigner]

Regfan was townie as fuck and obvious at that. There wasn't a single person to my recollection that was even suspicious of him. He was the obvious NK from that level, but I don't think dismissing the fact that it could've meant something other than that is a good idea, and certainly not wifom-y. The fact that Nacho and Llama still think it's to "frame" them, and not because they're entirely scummy outside of that, is seriously reaching (Nacho more than Llama, but let's be real here, I'm semi-compromising on Llama to get people to lynch the fuck out of Nacho tomorrow).

@Llamarble...you explained why you killed Pie last year...why did you kill Socio N1?

[singersigner]

Er...that kind of didn't make sense...

I mean that attributing the NK to "obv frame" is a weak defense considering how scummy both of you have been independently of that.

I'm also bored and feel like we should just fucking lynch one of Llamarble or Nacho already (maybe Benmage but that's a stretch considering both Llamarble and Nacho are on his wagon right now). Deadline is...tomorrow. ;_; Johhog, Zach, come to the dark side and have ALL OF THE LYNCHES!

[singersigner]

As if I wasn't going to push Nacho... I'm insulted...

Vote: Nachomamma8

No repeat case necessary. I have a 3 hour plane ride coming up and I'd like to see a lynch by the time I get back. Comeon now, people. Chop, chop.

[singersigner]

This disappoints me. GET THE FUCK IN HERE EVERYONE AND VOTE FOR NACHO KTHX.

[singersigner]

Pleasepleaseplease help me lynch Nacho. I don't care what happens, if we don't win the game flatout, I promise I'll take a harder look at Matias even with the town read my entire team has on him.

I even bargained with CES and compromised on a Llamarble lynch (it was secondary to a Nacho lynch) to get a Nacho lynch next (then look who died). I swear I will do the same thing tomorrow if Nacho flips town; he just needs to die now.

[singersigner]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

Wow you're lazy.

[singersigner]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

Wow, that was a lazy vote.

vote: matias

Because of this, I can definitely see a nacho/matias scumteam now. Matias is avoiding mentioning nacho and voting the next most viable wagon.

What the fuck is this? Just fucking lynch Nacho then. If anything YOU'RE the one avoiding the larger wagon and trying to hop on some stupid bullshit. Matias makes one vote that I call lazy and you completely overlook any desperate pleading to get this one fucking person out of the game. Nacho's never going to be nightkilled. Matias can easily be PoEed town in lylo if we make it there. Nacho cannot.

Comeon now.

Seriously.

Nacho now. If that doesn't end the game, I give up and y'all can have whatever the fuck lynch you want.

[singersigner]

Feel free to hammer away.

[singersigner]

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[singersigner]

Moreover Shea was pretty limited on the site at the start of team Mafia, and I doubt he'd take a scum role for that purpose.

But he wasn't really limited, and then when he claimed to actually be, it was "didn't expect work to be overwhelming" which is an unforeseen circumstance...in which case he would totally take a scum role thinking he could rock it.

Problem is, I think he realized he couldn't coast anymore, and when he was finally here, the shit he was posting wasn't flying so people called him out on it.

Seriously? I'm gunna be really mad if we're just wasting 4 fucking days on "well it might be Nacho but it's more likely Socio"...THERE'S TWO FUCKING SCUM LEFT. LET'S LYNCH THE ONE I WILL BE MORE UPSET ABOUT LOSING TO IF YOU PEOPLE DON'T GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER.

[singersigner]

WHY AREN'T YOU HAMMERING.

Stop being a stubborn dipshit and do it. If he's town, fine, sucks for us, we can interrogate Bub about the lack of hammer later.

EQUINOX IS AROUND AND I WANT A FUCKING FLIP.

[singersigner]

YOUR stalling is making me angry.

CAPTAIN FALCAN AND JOHHOG MATIAS HAS MY PERMISSION TO HAMMER SO IT'S NOT HIS FAULT IF NACHO FLIPS TOWN. HE'S MADE HIS STANCE QUITE CLEAR AND SHOULD BE CLEARED OF ALL HAMMERING SUSPICIONS SO SINGER CAN HAVE HER LYNCH.

[singersigner]

If anyone's hammering Nacho, it's bub or bub alone. I'd much rather a Socio lynch, but if this is happening, go for it.

Bub/Nacho is what I'm most worried about

and is the only thing I see if anything at all including Nacho.

Like, how can you say something like this and continue to avoid hammering Nacho...

[singersigner]

I'd legitimately like to hear TheStatusquo's thoughts on the game if he's willing to come back and give them...