TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Amrun]

VOTE: Llamarble

YOU KNOW WHY

[Amrun]

vote: CES

1. Bandwagon inflation
2. Not doing anything to try and get of RVS

Discuss.

How is 1 not accomplishing 2? This is an illogical argument. Bub's probably town for it, though.

Hell, you could go back at anytime and review the game itself. That scumteam was nominated for a scummy. There's plenty of reason to believe that Llamarble was going to be wagoned.

I really agree with Matias on this one. Anyone that played in last year's White Flag (me, Matias, singer very briefly), have an absolutely bone to pick with Llamarble.

I played in White Flag because I have been trying to erase that game from existence all year and I really need to replace it with better memories. So if we lose, I hate everyone who is town. Basically.

CES is being cagey and it makes me uncomfortable. Not sure why he's so avidly attacking early reads. What is so bad about Llamarble's Haddock read?

I like it, actually.

VOTE: Captain Haddock

p-edit: I wonder if this will be repeat of last year and I'll catch scum for how they attack Matias/DH.

[Amrun]

Hell, you could go back at anytime and review the game itself. That scumteam was nominated for a scummy. There's plenty of reason to believe that Llamarble was going to be wagoned.

I really agree with Matias on this one. Anyone that played in last year's White Flag (me, Matias, singer very briefly), have an absolutely bone to pick with Llamarble.

This doesn't make sense either. This is basically like saying "we were town in that last one and you fucked us over as scum so you better not do it again." Which is something only town would say. Which doesn't follow Matias's logic at all.

HMM.

I played in White Flag because I have been trying to erase that game from existence all year and I really need to replace it with better memories. So if we lose, I hate everyone who is town. Basically.

No one asked you?

Why should I care if no one asked me? It's information we should be volunteering. And besides - it was meant to help explain why I agreed with Matias.

I don't really understand why you're separating Matias' logic from the logic above; they're slightly different, but come from the same place. Matias assumed that everyone else would feel the latent butthurt from the last game and decided to capitalize on it.

Do you really think scum Matias would go out of his way to explain his plan rather than go with the immediately understandable "Llamarble was scum butthurt RAWR?"

CES is being cagey and it makes me uncomfortable. Not sure why he's so avidly attacking early reads. What is so bad about Llamarble's Haddock read?

Besides being based on silliness in part, he was trying to do this one-liner vote post with "hey, hey, that post is scummy, bam vote" subtext and I just felt it fell flat. That wasn't the kind of post that would induce such an immediate response.

I follow. I think it's more of a staple as LLamarble as a player, rather than Llamarble as scum. (Probably closer to the opposite, actually.)

[Amrun]

Also, hi, Zach!

I was hoping to see Sotty here to make it up to her, but you're a good second best. (Sowwy.)

[Amrun]

I think it's more of a staple as LLamarble as a player, rather than Llamarble as scum. (Probably closer to the opposite, actually.)

Which is why he would do it badly?

I understand what you're saying, I just disagree.

[Amrun]

I feel like everyone should have volunteered this information, yes, but since it was never made a point of, I don't feel like the people who did not are scummy, especially considering they're mostly newbies to team mafia.

Consider this me asking everyone why they chose this game.

So you think scum Matias would purposely draw attention to himself? Why?

And can you show me where you think he's tooting his own horn? I don't see that.

[Amrun]

Consider this me asking everyone why they chose this game.

Best set-up with the best player list.

You didn't know the player list when you picked the game, though - so why add that?

[Amrun]

Kuribo says, "The votes are all over the place." That's it so far, team-wise.

p-edit: Oh, Socio, I forgot to list you on the list of previous players. XD Nice to play with you again.

[Amrun]

By the way. Regfan is town. My team and I agree.

[Amrun]

@RegFan: Can you find that comment from Isa anywhere?

[Amrun]

I think Matias tried to encourage suspicion of me without comitting himself and he's asked for opinions without giving any.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

This is what I'm talking about. Not "early at all"! "After 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon" , like that was anything other than 3 rvs votes on the same person.

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

This post is just terrible. The point of Matias' post was not about Captain Haddock, but about discussing Zachrulez' motivation. This shows that Haddock is image conscious and lashing out at perceived threats.

[Amrun]

Team posts happen in real time, Reg. Discussion happened between posts 87 and 90. Although I should add that when I said "team" I did just mean kuribo and I, for now. The others are off doing Real Life things I guess.

Also we're deliberately not saying why we think you're town.

[Amrun]

You have one scumread in Benmage. Why?

[Amrun]

Why are we posting full reads lists on Page 5? Come the fuck on.

inb4 singer rages

[Amrun]

Unvote, Vote: Captain Haddock

. I'll take your word for it.

Why?

And especially why his over mine, when he was blatantly sheeping me?

[Amrun]

Okay. Then why the vote for CH?

[Amrun]

Oh, right, forgot. my bad.

[Amrun]

Bub has a history of making illogical arguments as town.

[Amrun]

I didn't buddy you in Flash IV that I remember, LLamarble. Nor its predecessor (def. not for that one, I tried to lynch you. FATE AND HIS STPUID AKDJ;AMASON ASLKJDD Still mad).

I'm also not buddying you here, but whatever.

[Amrun]

NO, Encouraging suspicion of a player you won't even vote is scummy.

It's not at all, actually. You think everyone is limited to one scum read per day and can only discuss the person they are voting? No.

[Amrun]

Also not feeling Johhoq-scum, just Johhoq-useless.

Not voting TSQ just for not posting.

[Amrun]

Also not feeling Johhoq-scum, just Johhoq-useless.

Not voting TSQ just for not posting.

I don't like when people have an on site presence and ignore this game. I like the fact that he's posted in the team mafia thread while continuing to not post here even less.

Benmage is also causing me to twitch and I'd be happy voting him at this point as well.

I don't like it either - and I noted in my team QT that TSQ posted in the Team Mafia thread after kuribo pointed out that singer probably suspects TSQ since he's been active in scumchat. I bet Elli's reading this and laughing because we're using his tell.

I don't like it, and it's so extremely scummy that I can't see scum doing it, ESPECIALLY when he has a team to poke his ass in gear.

TSQ is not an idiot. Would he really, as scum, decide not to post here but stay active on scumchat and post in the Team Mafia thread, making himself extremely conspicuous?

I realize this argument boils down to "too scummy to be scum," but, uh. That's how I feel. lol

Although I think it's too far to call him town off of this. I think it's null. For whatever reason he's staying out of this game, I doubt it has to do with his alignment because he's not that stupid.

I'd rather evaluate him after his re-entrance.

[Amrun]

Or, entrance, I should say.

[Amrun]

I do remember that thread you're talking about. I take that to mean he just avoids threads regardless of alignment, though.

If TSQ continues to lurk for ANYTHING like a week, then yeah, we will probably just need to take care of that. But it's been like one or two days, and I'm not ready to lynch any lurkers yet.

Socio has posted what, once, and he's not getting any attention. It's too early for lurker lynches.

[Amrun]

For the record I love me some lurking as scum, and I'm not stupid either.

Also, it's never too early to burn the heathens.

I understand the logic. It's not bad. I just felt obligated to offer the counterpoint. I'm internally conflicted. I'm just hoping he'll show up soon and we can judge him based off of play rather non-play.

[Amrun]

kuribo pointed out that lynching any lurker D1 is stupid because being on a town lynch D1 docks us points. Lynching a lurker is just a crapshoot.

I had a brief paranoid thought that you didn't care about this because you're scum, but I forgot about it myself so I dismissed it.

[Amrun]

So instead you're going to lurk as an attempt to win?

That is a fucking awful excuse.

[Amrun]

Hey, I listened. But no one listened to ME.

[Amrun]

Okay, so you think I'm faking rage about a game that happened a year ago and that it makes me scum?

I know you're bad at reading me, Regfan, but come the fuck on. lol

And I never said that TSQ was town for his lurking - I said that I think it is a null tell. How a null tell should lead me to think he is town I do not know. My team and I agree on this. I'm not going to restate our exact reasoning, but it's close to what I stated here.

Also, is your problem with Johhoq that he suspected two people going at each other and is therefore playing both sides of the field, or something else?

I really don't think what you're doing right now is pro-town, but you're town, so I'll just let you do whatever you want to do.

[Amrun]

No, I said he wouldn't use it as a scum tactic. (I don't remember my exact wording, but that is what I meant.) I very specifically said several times that it isn't relevant to his alignment in my opinion.

Do you really think early day 1 townreads have to make sense together as a scumteam?

[Amrun]

I know you're bad at reading me

, Regfan, but come the fuck on. lol

I just realized all the issues that I've had reading you ever has been based around games where I wasn't actually

in

the game but rather following on alongside (Winvitation + at least 10 or so others) but in the select 4-5 games I've played with you I don't think I've read you wrong, so where did you get the bolded from?

No, I said he wouldn't use it as a scum tactic. (I don't remember my exact wording, but that is what I meant.) I very specifically said several times that it isn't relevant to his alignment in my opinion.

Do you really think early day 1 townreads have to make sense together as a scumteam?

If he wouldn't use it as a scum tactic yet we know that he hasn't posted wouldn't that make him town? I really am not following your line of logic ending with it being a null-tell. Also can you rephrase your last line above because I don't understand it.

If you have time for that can you read my iso besides Matias' and comment? I even asked him his reason for voting CES and he didn't explain.

I'll re-look at it tomorrow when I wake up but be warned, even if you're right I don't think it'll change my mind. We have a strong meta town read on him.

I am specifically remembering the blowup from That One Game. You don't understand me as a person and my motivations when I post, so you clearly can't read me well. You can't have one without the other. You're not the only one.

Just like you still do not understand what I'm saying about TSQ. I'm saying specifically that I think he would do this as either alignment as a tactic, and that it's just a thing that happened and not a strategic move. That has nothing to do with him being town or scum.

What does DDD think of Amrun, Zach?

Most of our back and forth in the QT so far has been agreement with my line of inquiry on Singer and support for my current scumreads. I made a note of the question in the QT and I'll let you know when he answers.

He just got back to me and he's seeing her play as artificial and disagrees with my read.

This came with a few caveats as he pointed out he read her wrong in the one game he could recall playing with her and that the artificial feeling he's getting from her appearing to try hard could be her actually trying harder because of last year's game.

That's the gist of it anyway.

As much as reinforcing DDDP's scumread on me is probably stupid ... WHAT? I tried SO FUCKING HARD last year it's ridiculous. I'm not trying any harder this year. I am trying hard, but I usually do. This game does get a little extra dose of trying, but no more than last year's. I can't give more than I have. DDD isn't making sense. DDDP and I have played several games together - off of the top of my head, DH's C9++, which was a steamroll, and Winvitational, in which I definitely tried hard and don't remember him thinking I was scum, and last year's TM PYP, in which I do think he read me wrong. I suspected him as well (iirc) and died with an innocent on him. So what? What does that have to do with anything? Which of these games showed "less effort?"

[Amrun]

Oops.

@Regfan;

What I was trying to say in that last sentence you asked me about was this: Do you think scumreads in early game have to make sense as a scumread?

[Amrun]

-.- *as a scumteam

[Amrun]

Oh, I forgot about that one. He does realize I was literally playing myy first game ever on-site in cold War, right?

But okay, I guess I understand his point, I just don't see how or why he would think my posting isn't natural etc. I'm one of thoise fly by nose people even as scum, let alone as town.

[Amrun]

Oh shit, also petspick, but he was scum that game, so.

[Amrun]

What I meant is that if you specifically always get confused about someone's motivations, then you are definitely going to have a hard time reading that person. I don't think I've ever - EVER - seen a post by you, about me, that was approaching anything near what I meant.

I asked about the scumteam thing because it seemed to me that you were criticizing Johhoq for suspecting both Matias and Haddock and I couldn't tell why that was an issue for you.

And my issue with explaining town reads in such detail - EXCEPT when it is vital in order to prevent that town member from being lynched - is long standing. A) It gives a map to scum for the NK. You addressed this earlier so I thought this was self-evident. Apologies. But there is a B) it allows scum to modify their behavior to engender town reads from the players they think that it is most strategically useful to engender town reads in. For example, if I said Player X is scummy because he's too passive, and Player Y is townish because she is so aggressive, Player X can try to act more aggressive to fit into my town reads.

[Amrun]

B is especially true in early game when everyone isn't fully established, I should note.

[Amrun]

Town tells aren't universal, Regfan.

[Amrun]

Oh and Socio, we want all your teams reads on this game please and thank you.

I want none of Socio's teams reads.

I do, though.

[Amrun]

A thousand times this. I question Amrun's resistance to voting for Shea simply because he's not posting in this thread. She's done her "research" before and I'm questioning why she didn't do it here.

What research do you think I didn't do?

[Amrun]

I don't really think Haddock and CES are a scumteam, but that post did bring something up for me.

Captain Haddock, why don't you suspect CES?

[Amrun]

How do you reconcile that that scumteam doesn't make sense from play?

[Amrun]

Can you restate that entire post?

[Amrun]

286

[Amrun]

I was not saying that a team of Amrun + Haddock + CES would make the vote counts make sense.
I was saying that each of Amrun / Haddock / CES individually, by being scum, could make the vote counts make more sense.
Basically individual tell not team-tell, and not even a very strong one.

OK.

[Amrun]

Why the hell is Johhog an "easy lynch"?

He's a player in this game that I'm currently interested in.

Seriously? Look at the player list.

[Amrun]

That wasn't meant as an insult, Johhoq. I was in the exact same position last year, and still somewhat this year. You and Haddock are just less experienced than the rest of this playerlist. Weakestt becomes quite relative when the overall level is high.

[Amrun]

kuribo says to tell you that it's because you're an unknown quantity so people would be more likely to lynch you. This is definitely true; I concur.

[Amrun]

Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. So not sure why you're disagreeing.

[Amrun]

Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. So not sure why you're disagreeing.

Experience reads to me as "how long you have been playing", so

I mean, it's all semantics. Johhog to me is not an easy lynch. No one is.

I just didn't feel like getting into a huge diatribe. There are lots of factors. It's not really important.


Socio, it was cute but it's getting old. There is zero reason not to share your team's reads with us. ZERO.

[Amrun]

IT IS AMUSING THAT YOU THINK SUCH.

I know your team is scumhunting, if you're town, and your other teammates are not concerned with talking about it. So why are you?

[Amrun]

Finding out if he's avoiding the thread or just not around. There were at least two other people who noticed that Shea had posted around the site but not in this thread, and you still say "I'm not going to vote for someone simply because he hadn't posted in this thread." You have now been presented with evidence that he is not just not posting in this thread, he's actively avoiding it. What do you make of that?

You're really, REALLY not reading carefully - like, the amount of not reading necessary for you to reach this conclusion is astounding.

I knew perfectly well that he was posting on-site and active in the Team Mafia thread. That was inherently relevant to what I was saying about him.

[Amrun]

I have something else I want to say about it that makes me possibly doubt my own conclusion, but my team and I are checking if I'm allowed to say it.

[Amrun]

If you had fully read my response to Zach, I noted that my team and I were ALREADY DISCUSSING that he had posted in the Team Mafia thread AND that he was active in scumchat during this time and we came to this conclusion WITH THAT IN MIND. In other words, even though in 193, I was short on time and didn't finish the sentence to say, "not posting IN THIS THREAD," that is what I meant, and that much is obvious. Also, saying you're not reading is not insulting you and I didn't intend it as an insult. I have specifically talked about the issue that you're trying to poke at me for and you're acting as if I have not clarified; the only conclusions I can come to is that you did not read very carefully, that you're stupid, or that you are purposefully miscontruing what I wrote. I know B isn't true, and C doesn't even have a good scum motivation, so it's almost definitely A.

I CAN'T respond because my response now is different than it would have been then and I don't know if I'm allowed to tell you why.

But my answer then would have gone something like this: I don't [didn't] think his ignoring this thread has been at all indicative of alignment; posting in MD, GD, and scumchat all require significantly less brain power than sitting down to really read an important game, and it makes sense for someone who is busy to do mindless things but not have the time or attention span required to put time into a game. I don't [didn't] think TSQ would use lurking as any sort of strategy and therefore that his lurking was coincidental, especially given the team nature of this game. I'm not "okay" with him lurking, but think that lurker hunting on Day 1 is a bad idea that is more likely to hit town than scum, which would both decrease my team's points and give us zero information for Day 2.

[Amrun]

I do think it was obvious, but I did explain myself. (I never meant to imply I wouldn't clarify further.) Correct me if I am wrong, but you were implying that I did not know that TSQ was posting elsewhere because I did not bother to research it, and I was saying that that isn't true AND that you should have known that by reading what I wrote, since I talked about it.

Well, ZERO information was an exaggeration, but it clearly does not give us the optimal amount of information and has the added negative of hurting those of us that are town's points if the lurker target happens to be town.

CES' jump onto the wagon is probably the worst, but I have a townread on him otherwise.

p-edit: No real opinion of Benmage, tbh, which means I need to read him. My first reaction is, "He's getting a lot of negative attention but I don't really see why." I don't really have any reason that he should be town, though, besides that I thought his explanation of why he chose town to be wifom-y but nevertheless genuine-feeling. I'll ask my team as well.

[Amrun]

Can you be more specific than that?

[Amrun]

Can you be more specific than that?

I'd prefer not to be...

Do you have any experience with Benmage scum?

Me and DGB were basically the only ones to think Benmage was scum in Winvitational. (He was; he won.)

[Amrun]

I meant that DGB and I were the only ones (to my recollection) that still thought he was scum AFTER the tracker thing. But it's not important. I don't remember all the details.

[Amrun]

Bub - Zach has certainly been commenting on other things. Why would you say he hadn't.

Zach - I'm interested in what you mean by Haddock's scumhunting being genuine. Do you think he is RIGHT or do you think he is GENUINE?

[Amrun]

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

[Amrun]

Both have done significantly more than tsq. ???

[Amrun]

So, sad news: I can't share why I now suspect TSQ. I don't know if I'm willing to stake his whole alignment on what I wanted to share but cannot, but it does make me lean scum on him.

[Amrun]

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

The point about him fueling suspicion about Haddock without committing to it. I see it as a valid point.

I still have a town read on Matias for overall play, but I can see Haddock's position coming from a pro-town POV.

How is that a valid point? How do you see what he said as being accurate?

[Amrun]

For the record, it's not something I would have caught on my own. It's something from a teammate. But that would be a fucking stupid thing to fake. Like I don't even see the scum motivation for doing that.

[Amrun]

My teammates came up with this as the only huge problem with Amrun:

And my issue with explaining town reads in such detail - EXCEPT when it is vital in order to prevent that town member from being lynched - is long standing. A) It gives a map to scum for the NK. You addressed this earlier so I thought this was self-evident. Apologies. But there is a B) it allows scum to modify their behavior to engender town reads from the players they think that it is most strategically useful to engender town reads in. For example, if I said Player X is scummy because he's too passive, and Player Y is townish because she is so aggressive, Player X can try to act more aggressive to fit into my town reads.

This apparently is a lie because she was town in a game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3540935

She kept explaining her town read on Shattered Viewpoint in this game. Everyone found it weird because SV wasn't close to being lynched and she ended up being town in this game

She really has no problem as town explaining her town reads when the person isn't close to being lynched.

Both of these bring Amrun to a neutral-scummy, but I'm not sure I like how the wagon started.

Are you fucking retarded?

I was a cop with an innocent on SV in that game. Like, fucking seriously. That might be the dumbest thing I've ever read.


Also, my playstyle has evolved a lot and I didn't always ascribe to that theory. There's this thing called "learning" that happens.


ALSO, if you had not noticed, I have called TSQ scummy. I have lots of townreads, and several other reads that are leaning scummy in a more slight way, but no one jumps out at me as much as Haddock. I have been observing Haddock and seen nothing to dissuade me; the topic of his conversation has NEVER ONCE CHANGED, until about a post ago. He is STILL talking about Matias and the thing that happened way back then that I am still voting him for. And note - who does he vote for, but someone else that he perceives to be threatening him. Yeah, my vote is in the right place.

[Amrun]

btw, traveling tomorrow, idk if can post, etc

[Amrun]

I don't really care if anything I do may or may not be perceived as a scumtell by some. I'm working in my own way and I'm fine with that. This game isn't a normal game and I'm not playing it like one. I'm using my QT and I may or may not share all information out of it as I see pertinent. I don't really care how that looks because - shocker - I'm not scum. I've done several things already that would be very questionable for scum to do, but I'm not going to bother pointing them out as I think they should speak for themselves.

I do owe this game a good re-read, but I've been in the middle of end of semester and moving out (and am again am moving across the country for the umpteenth time this year, tomorrow).

Also, kuribo wishes to say that, as usual, he thinks Llamarble is retarded.

[Amrun]

It's like they ignore context all by themselves. I've been sharing most of what my team thinks, and I clearly have good reasons for not sharing it all, namely not being modkilled. What's your excuse?

[Amrun]

I think Haddock's attack on me is certainly more valid than his attack on Matias; still, I don't find it especially good. They're semi-valid criticisms that apply much more strongly to about 5 other people in the game. What's the difference between me and them? They're not attacking Haddock. Haddock has had interactions with ONLY people criticising him, exclusively, and I find it quite scummy indeed. I acknowledge that he's the weakest link on the playerlist (and pointed it out myself), but I'm not going to ignore scummy behavior from him. Most interesting is his interactions with YOU, especually because as I've said, I have an iron solid town rea on you. You break down concisely why his argument against Matias is bullshit, but say you think he is town. He treats you VERY differently than he treats me and Bub, who basically said the same things with the twist that Haddock is scum. Haddock is super image conscious and that's scum mentality 101.

If asked for my biggest towntell this game, I'd point to my behavior around tsq (regardless of whatever alignment he actually ends up being). I brought a lot of attention on myself arguing against his wagon before he'd posted, especially the particular argument I employed. Then, when the pressure on him had mostly dissipated, I said I find him scummy but not auto-scum for ~mystery reasons~ which may or may not be the same as yours (our team doubts they're the same). There are about 20,000 easier roads for scum than that.

[Amrun]

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

The point about him fueling suspicion about Haddock without committing to it. I see it as a valid point.

I still have a town read on Matias for overall play, but I can see Haddock's position coming from a pro-town POV.

How is that a valid point? How do you see what he said as being accurate?

Fanning suspicion without it being noticed actually has some scum motivation. It's weighed against the probability that Matias' attempt to analyze me was genuine. (For this specific instance I find the latter the more likely possibility.)

I agree that fanning suspicion etc. is a scumtell, but not that Matias actually did that.

Why do you think that TSQ is scum?

Shea lurks as scum + I think him picking White Flag is suspect + he's pretty much responding to the continued pressure as I'd expect lurkerscum to respond.

Pet theory: he's less motivated because benmage pushed for benmage-Llamarble crossdefending pre-game clearly implying (or quite possibly outright stating) that shea was the weak link in the scum team.

I'm interested in a lot of this. Can you provide meta of shea lurking as scum (and any countermeta), for reference? Why do you think him picking White Flag is suspect?

And as for your pet theory, why do you think benmage and llamarble's behavior backs that up? Can you show me?

[Amrun]

What is there to answer? Those are stupid side snipes that mean nothing. I haven't allowed Bub to do anything. I commented on his comments about you, disagreed with part and agreed with another part. Until just now, you've continued to talk about the same thing that was just as terrible and dumb as when I first said it was terrible and dumb. I was observing you to see if you'd widen your net, and if so, where. You chose to widen it to your next biggest attacker. I'm happy with my vote.

Llamarble - you've seen me fake aggression and dynamism that fooled you. You know that I can. I have plenty of town games that don't start off as aggressive, especially when distracted as I have been with finals and moving across the country. The aggression will come with conviction. More interesting is why you attempt to use this as a scumtell when it isn't - you claim I can fake a lot, and have SEEN me fake this exact thing, so why would I NOT do it as scum now with all these eyes on me?

[Amrun]

I don't actually want a full reads list, but I do want content, and don't act like you haven't openly ignored this game for a long time now. You owe us, and your teammates, quite a bit of content at this point.

[Amrun]

I am kind of concerned that when I asked CES why he said TSQ lurked as scum, his answer wasn't actually based in relevant experience.

[Amrun]

In other news: my team and I are pretty on board with similar town reads, and that's awesome.

Kublai Kahn thinks Sociopath's noncontribution is bullshit and he deserves to be lynched for it, or voted until he stops.

[Amrun]

I didn't really consider "very active" as part of the bargain. But still, then, we'll throw out TSQ, and even Sociopath, who is not "very" active. Johhoq came to mind - one scum read, Ben, no reasoning at all that I remember, which shows how good it was. singer - only TSQ, and literally only for lurking, while she has not been so active herself. Matias keeps withdrawing his scumreads and I've no real notion of who he actually thinks is scum right now. Captain Haddock himself as literally the exact same amount of stated suspicions as I do - and until he "suspected" me, he had one less.

I have a larger scum pool due to PoE, but night kills, especially the N1 nightkill, played a very vital role in last year's White Flag. I don't see any benefit in unveiling it at this time, and I won't do it, even if asked, except to my own teammates, ofc, who already know all of my townreads and overall agree, with a couple of exceptions, and have no strong conviction that anyone else is scum that I haven't noted in thread.

We've all noted the same team - this game, people are playing very defensively and close to the chest. No one is doing anything at all, really. It makes the game fairly opaque, for now. This is when I usually shake things up, but I haven't thought of a good angle that someone won't get immediately and therefore ruin the value of, with all these eyes on board.

[Amrun]

*all noted the same thing

[Amrun]

I'm a little confused. Was that directed to me?

Because those weren't my suspects. They were an answer to "five active people that don't have a lot of stated suspicion."

[Amrun]

I know, but I thought you were referring to the top part when you were actually referring to the bottom.

Nothing to see here, move along. >.>

[Amrun]

Well, I think his pool of scum is likely to be more wrong than right, and I know at least one is wrong.

But I can't argue that it's impossible.

I had actually pegged the scumteam by this time in last year's White Flag. Now, at this point, I didn't actually know that I had pegged the scumteam. A teammate was playing this game at the time, and I was posting the entire playerlist from town->scum in the QT as I followed along because I was particularly interested in the game. My top 3 never shifted, but the rest went all over the place. My top 3 were all scum.

I think this can be a somewhat useful tool in early game, but not late game, when associative tells become important.

I'm going to do it for our whole team's games when I get the time, but I haven't had it yet. I've been finishing finals and moving home, etc. First day home was today.

That's a really long answer that tells you a couple of things... a) I'm really tired and rambling, b) I think there is nothing inherently wrong with that number of reads. Mine is similar in number.

That comes along with the understanding that these reads are flexible and should change as more information comes to light. Even though I have a large number of townreads, only one of them is something that is strong enough to carry to late game, and even that is a rarity.

[Amrun]

I didn't include Benmage. Benmage has shared reads.

That's extremely fucking narrow. I'm p sure I have most, or at least close to the most, posts in the game, and you are trying to only classify "active" as "someone with as many posts as me." That's ridiculous. None of those players have received prods; all of them have posted content. That's an insanely impossible standard.

Captain Haddock re-stated his read because it's so wrong that people keep poking holes in his logic; some simply chose the longer route of doing so. I said, very simply and concisely, why his logic was wrong and scummy. He spent another ten years talking about; nothing changed. I had nothing more to say on the subject. I was paying attention to how he treated people, but sometimes, it's time to get in there, and sometimes, inserting yourself will change the outcome.

No one hounded me about my read on Captain Haddock because it wasn't fucking stupid, so I didn't have to explain it 10,000 times.

[Amrun]

Johhog, for real? that post is so bad. TSQ HAS provided content. He hasn't walled us to death, but he's here and trying to participate. He hasn't had a chance to read the backlog. What a copout.

[Amrun]

He never claimed to be contributing when he wasn't. What?

[Amrun]

He hasn't once stated a weakened read on Amrun and is content with his vote on her

Serious question: why is that okay for Johhog but not for me?

@singer's address to me re: the thing about Benmage: I did NOT bring anything about Benmage up to strengthen any point of mine. I was asked point blank about my experience and success with reading Benmage as scum.

@Regfan: Not wanting to give up meta tells is really common. If you know someone does something as X or Y alignment, telling them about it ruins it forever. I don't know what this meta tell is, but whatever, I get the principle.

[Amrun]

Quick question - I do remember your entrance to that game now, CES. Why is it a scumtel for shea to come in and vote for something while he catches up?

[Amrun]

I don't agree, but okay.

[Amrun]

What's the difference between Shea's noncontribution and Socio's, and why should only one of them be pressure voted for it and not the other?

There's a humongous difference, and it's disturbing if you don't see it.

Socio has been here from the beginning, going NANANANA I'M NOT GOING TO PROVIDE CONTENT WHEEEEEEEEEEE~ and saying things that are blatantly false (which I wish I could explain, but I can't because of RULEZ), while TSQ was straight up lurking and saying, "I will provide content in the future."

And it's not that both don't need pressure, but TSQ already had/has been pressured over it, while Socio has been completely ignored.

And I'm NOT arguing that TSQ has a lot of content. You are completely ignoring the context. TSQ said, "I don't have time to catch up so I'm going to play from this point onwards and start providing content," and then did that. Johhog came on like two posts later and was like, "YOU PROMISED CONTENT AND THERE ISN'T ANY!" That wasn't true and didn't make any sense at all. TSQ didn't say, "Hey, I've read the thread, here's my catch up: Amrun is town." Johhog acted as if that was the case. I can't tell if he is just not reading and pushing something stupid, or pushing something stupid on purpose.

[Amrun]

Wait, for real. Since when do I lurk as scum? Please post examples. You can't just say things in an attempt to get someone true that have no objective basis in reality.

Vote: Ces

What is there to answer? Those are stupid side snipes that mean nothing.

The 'snipes' don't mean nothing and had he not asked you 'who' you were referring to when you said 5 or so other players have done the same thing as you regarding being very active but not stating scum reads I would have asked it. I do want it answered.

I do think that ces making a comment like "shea lurks as scum." is something to look at because frankly, I think it's incredibly untrue, so I don't understand what basis he would have for such a claim unless he was inventing a case out of whole cloth to push on me.

Okay, I get it he stated that you lurk as scum and you don't think you do. That means very little to me, you don't have to post an entire reads list from town-> scum (Though I do think everyone doing so is actually optimal play but that's something for MD not here) but I do want to see a fuckload more content and reads from you.

Also I've narrowed down the pool of people I think are possibly scum to [Amrun, TSQ, Zach, Socio, Llarmable].

How can you possibly narrow down to just 5 possible subjects in 20 pages? You either are the most fantastic scum hunter that ever lived, or you are willfully blinding yourself to other possibilities. I understand the sentiment of, say "I am willing to lynch any of these X people today because I find them the most suspicious." but that's not the way you parsed it, and furthermore, your "list of people who could possibly be scum." seems to oddly parallel those that have been found suspicious of others.


Tell me this, if you have concluded that the people who are possibly scum are in that list of 5 people, then what caused you to discount the other 7 people? Why can't they be scum?

imo amrun is pretty clearly town, by the way.

It was not directed to you. It was directed to the person who just said he had deduced that the scum were among 5 possible people, oddly enough.

Well, you could comment on it instead of ignoring it, now that you've figured out what I'm talking about.

Because I hate theme shit.

Since when?

Put another way: If I am being voted because I was lurking, and now I am not lurking, it makes no sense to continue voting me, since the genesis of the votes is no longer a relevant cause It is preferable to not lynch me here because now you have a chance to read me as opposed to lynching me blind. If my new content makes me seem suspicious to you, then thats a fine reason to vote me, but barring new suspicion, voting a player for lurking when they are no longer lurking makes no sense.

And I do want CES's comment explained, back to game relevant material.

Isn't the reason that you're suspected that you're not posting content, which you still aren't? (Ftr, TSQ just got scummier in my eyes since he actually posted but with almost none content)

I am aware its not a non-serious wagon. I just think that as long as I remain here and continue to post content that it should not remain a serious wagon. Surely there are better candidates to lynch than someone who just got caught up in the real world for a little bit.

Do you think you're posting content? Because I'm not agreeing. The only thing you've contributed is a vote on CES with some shitty reasoning.

I didn't really consider "very active" as part of the bargain. But still, then, we'll throw out TSQ, and even Sociopath, who is not "very" active. Johhoq came to mind - one scum read, Ben, no reasoning at all that I remember, which shows how good it was.

What? Perhaps that was true by page 5 but you should really reread.

Alright, TSQ is more active by this post but I still think my reasoning is valid as he didn't contribute at the time he wrote that post IMO.

See those quotes above? Those are TSQ's non-defensive content posts that came BEFORE Johhog's attack on him. EVEN IF there had been zero content by that point, Johhog's attack was still 100% invalid.

lol, Amrun, you always resort to fear mongering instead of simply answering questions posed to you. Why? Am I "scummy" for not seeing the difference?

You're letting Socio troll you and it's

hilarious

.

Also, I understand your point about Johhog; however, you DID argue that Shea has provided content (as I had quoted), so I asked you to show me where. Please do so.

Preview Edit:
@Johhog...I *facepalmed* too. >_>

Fear mongering? Those words do not think what you think they mean. Like, what?

How did I not answer the question posed to me? Yes, you are scummy for not seeing the difference because it's OBVIOUS, and posing the question to me like it's not obvious seems like an attempt to "trick question" me hoping I'll trip up in my answer.

I am not letting Socio troll me. I know exactly what he's doing. I just think it's bullshit. I have no read on Socio because he's making it fucking impossible, and I don't like that.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Benmage

Do you read Benmage as town?

Why do you think that SocioPath is town Benmage?

To be honest it was much of a tie-breaker, I trusted Isa more with the game than I trusted myself with it. It's not that I wouldn't be able to handle it.

I don't have that many strong reads yet but these is the ones that I have:

Town:

Bub
Llamarble
Zach

Null-town:

CES

Not a fucking clue:

Amrun
Regfan
Singer
Socio
TSQ

Null-scum:

Matias
Haddock

Scum:

Benmage

I've skimmed a bit too much though, I'll reread and see if I adjust something.

This is EVERYTHING that Johhog ever said about Benmage, leading up to his only scumread being Benmage.

I ask him why he thinks Benmage is scum. He answers:

Amrun: It's mainly a gut-read but his last posts about his reads hasn't improved my view of him, I'm going further into that when he answers my question. I guess it started though with his CES vote in RVS, I didn't like that at all as I saw that CES post as pro-town.

PEdit: In what order Matias? Town to Sum?

Isa claims that he complained multiple times about the White Flag setup in the chat. Why would you lie Regfan?

And yeah, I want some firm reasons as to why I'm scum because I see next to none reasons even though several people read me as such.

But when someone suspects him, WHY DIDN'T THEY POST REASONS?!

I'm happy with my vote and I'll not change it before we reach a consensus in the team. As of now the four of us have 3 scum reads together and it's only one of us who has a scum read on either, Isa thinks that Zach is scum, PeregrineV thinks that CES is scum and I think that Benmage is scum.

But yeah, your case is weak. Like extremely weak. I just can't see how asking for a case is scummy.

He's happy with his vote, despite never explaining more like he said he would.

I'm in basically the same situation on Johhog.

I'd pay to know what this is, it's pretty hard to defend yourself otherwise.

But I'll tell you one thing; if you suspect me for out of game reasons (lex Regfan) I'll be fucking mad post-game.

I really hate this post. I kind of skimmed over it at the time, but it's been bugging me. I'm not sure what it is about it, but I find it scummy. I thought about it a little bit and decided I think it feels like a "scum annoyed to be caught for the wrong reasons" post.

You're completely missing the point, everyone of you. I'm not saying that TSQ isn't contributing (which he is) but that he wasn't contributing at a time when he claimed to be, which means SCUM POINTS. But you want a straight answer to if I'd support a TSQ-lynch or not you can get one; I won't, not at this time. I read him as null leaning on scum.

This really annoys me. We've been talking about how I don't think it's a valid attack. TSQ CLEARLY meant, "I'm here, I'm posting, and I'm trying to play this game," but Johhog tries to twist it into a scumtell because TSQ didn't post long analysis yet. I showed before how he was WRONG to say TSQ had posted no content, but even if that HAD been true, it's taking the heart of what TSQ was saying and twisting it in a way that I find really scummy.

He's voting for me, now, and I found zero reasons he thinks I'm scummy in his ISO. Literally zero. He hasn't mentioned Benmage since I ASKED him why Benmage was scummy - and when I mentioned that he had voted Benmage and Benmage was his only real suspect and he had little reasoning for it, he said that wasn't true.

But, yes, it IS true. In essence, Johhog has done exactly what he claimed TSQ did - say he provided content when he didn't. Johhog has now talked more about why TSQ is scum than anyone else in the game, period. And yet, his vote is on me. Why? I don't know. I don't think Johhog knows. It reeks of opportunism, and he's setting himself up to get on the popular votee TSQ's wagon should that become viable in deadline.

VOTE: Johhog

[Amrun]

I have no read on Socio because he's making it fucking impossible, and I don't like that.

HOLD UP.
What do you mean, you "don't like that."?

I mean it's annoying and I don't like it. I don't understand your question.


@Regfan: Yes, I am - and the fact that I said that myself should tell you I don't give a rip - and has zero scum motivation. I'm going to vote whomever I think has the highest chance of flipping scum. I also have scumreads on TSQ and singer, but I think they have lower chances of flipping scum than Johhog.

But, on that note, my scumread on Haddock is lessening. I like Captain Falcon so far, and even though I know it doesn't matter at all, I can't help but feel less passion for that Ajax flipped scum. I'm trying to reason myself with statistics that I know. I did think Haddock's replace out was a minor town tell, though.

And you should know that half of a meta means nothing. What did you find in his scum meta? Does he switch votes without reason there?

I'm not really caring about him switching votes without reason, though. I'm caring about his hypocrisy and image consciousness.


Which reminds me - Johhog, can you provide me with some scum meta, please?

[Amrun]

There IS scum motivation to push weaker players. There ISN'T scum motivation to go, "HEY THESE PLAYERS ARE WEAKER AND HERE'S WHY - OH HEY I'M GOING TO PUSH THEM."

I will compare Johhog's meta, though. It's possible that I'm finding his playstyle scummy and that he's missing some things with English being a second language and that adding up in my mind as scummy. I will have a hard time doing this before deadline, though - my summer weekends are usually 18-20 hour work days. I'll try, but I'm not sure how crazy it is going to be.

It's not that he found TSQ's contribution lacking that I find scummy. It's the way he expressed himself about it. It looked to me like he was trying to find a scumtell, and found something he could construe as a scumtell. And he demands reasons that people are suspecting him, and yet doesn't give any of his own.

I also don't like that his strongest reasoning for scum is about TSQ, and yet that's not where his vote is. I have scumreads on them both, so I noticed that immediately.

My preferred lynch pool is {Johhog, TSQ, Haddock, singer} in that order, and I would compromise on a couple of others.

[Amrun]

But, yes, it IS true. In essence, Johhog has done exactly what he claimed TSQ did - say he provided content when he didn't. Johhog has now talked more about why TSQ is scum than anyone else in the game, period.

And yet, his vote is on me. Why? I don't know. I don't think Johhog knows. It reeks of opportunism

, and he's setting himself up to get on the popular votee TSQ's wagon should that become viable in deadline.

The bolded bit is the scummiest thing in the entire thread so far. I touched on it earlier but didn't go into it enough; You state that he's being opportunistic, which is one of the most used 'buzz' words that people use to enhance the strength of a case. Had you read his ISO, any vote count or anything at all you'd KNOW for a fact that his vote could not be opportunistic since placing an unexplained vote on someone that has 0 other votes on them is almost the opposite of opportunistic.

I actually meant that Johhog's push of the TSQ without a vote was opportunistic, not his vote on me. That was poorly worded, though, so I can see how you came to that conclusion.

Amrun finds me scummyyyyy...why, because I don't see these "obvious" things, as obvious as she does? Or because I keep pointing out when she's clearly misguided?

@Amrun...since when did you find Shea so scummy? You realize that two other people in your suspect pool are fighting quite hard to get a third one lynched, right? What does that tell you of the three of our alignments?
Also, where did Johhog say that he was providing content? Like, does he ever literally say "hey, I'm providing content guyz"?

@Regfan...can we pleasepleaseplease lynch Shea first? As shitty as her play's been so far, I'm having a hard time grasping at its scumminess outside of her connection to Shea. Basically Shea is scum regardless of Amrun's alignment, and I'd really like to see him flip first.

No - it is not even mostly because of that. It is because of your poor pushes on TSQ and Matias. You were pushing TSQ for not providing content (without even explaining why) while providing almost none of your own.

I've found Shea scummy since my team brought my attention to the thing which shall not be named. I stated it. I wish I could explain it. I can't.

And no, my top suspects do not make sense as a scum team and I am A-OK with that on Day 1. Why shouldn't I be?

And I don't understand your Johhog question at all.



@Johhog: ONCE AGAIN, you quote post 184 of Shea's saying that he was providing content and say it was false. I have ALREADY PROVEN that it was, in fact, true, and that you are wrong, but you are ignoring that.

V/LA this weekend

I thought I could do it, but I can't. Probably v/la EVERY weekend. I will try to post once a day, though, at least. In this game especially because of the deadline.

[Amrun]

It's not that he is willing to switch to TSQ at deadline ... That's not the issue at all. It's how he chose to push THAT more than he ever pushed anything else, like his LEGITIMATE SCUMREADS, supposedly. It doesn't add up at all. If he had said that same thing about TSQ and said more about me and Benmage, it wouldn't bother me as much (or at all actually).

That being said, meh, I actually think 669 by Falcon is a good point, and a quick skim of meta reveals that Regfan's representation of Johhog's meta is pretty accurate. Also my teammates don't really think Johhog is scum. They don't have a town read on him, really, but not convinced he's scum.

Ugh why are scumreads so HARD this game. I don't know what it is, but this game is like trying to read words written in sand for some reason.

Given the nearness of deadline and my limited access, I'm going to...

VOTE: TSQ

I think TSQ has a decently good chance of flipping scum, and his flip will tell me a lot. A lot of lower-end reads would be improved by knowing his alignment.

[Amrun]

Johhog, YES you have talked about shea more than me. As I pointed out, and Zach agreed, you've given exactly zero reasons why I'm scum. In fact, that's the FIRST POST where yoi address it all (and poorly). And now I've pushed you about it.

And NO, posting does not equal content, but talking about alignments and game happenings are, and I showed where he did that.


Question: Johhog, do you prefer scum or town? Which do you think you're better at? Why?

Regfan, if you really think my team would tell me to vote Johhog at deadline, or AnYONE because he's a leading wagon, regardless of alignment, then LOL.

[Amrun]

"Replying" does not equal "countering." I've read the game, and probably more than you have.

What does RTFT mean?