TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Johhog]

VOTE: Benmage

[Johhog]

4 votes on a player in a game where 7 is needed for lynch is still fine with me, heck I would even call it pro-town. As to your second point no real comment, but I view it as null.

[Johhog]

Wait, quick question, are you Captain Greypatch?

[Johhog]

Do you read Benmage as town?

[Johhog]

And Haddock, just so we have this out of the way I'm a part of the hydra "hiphog". I'll try to not have any prejudices though.

[Johhog]

Johhog, I remember Isa making a comment somewhere that he wanted to be in white flag and his team mates didn't, so may I ask why you're here?

That's weird, because when we voted internally White Flag was on the bottom of both his and mine lists. To avoid flipping a coin though I volunteered, I decided that MetaMafia was too hard for me as I'm recently back to this site.

[Johhog]

Yeah fuck, Backroom or whatever. You know what I mean, the mechanic Mafia.

[Johhog]

Amrun, can you explain the Captain scum read for me please because I'm not getting it.

That's weird, because when we voted internally White Flag was on the bottom of both his and mine lists. To avoid flipping a coin though I volunteered, I decided that MetaMafia was too hard for me as I'm recently back to this site.

I vividly remember him stating that he liked the setup inside the live draft chat room (He was user 100). I tried going back to check but the spreadsheet is closed.

Here's our full choices, if it matters (not copy-pasted as that would be rule-breaking):

Isa:
Backroom (note, written as "MetaMafia")
Normal
Almost Normal
Scummies
White Flag

PeregrineV:
Normal
Almost Normal
Backroom
White Flag
Scummies

Zar:
Scummies
Backroom (also "MetaMafia")
Normal
Almost Normal
White Flag

Johhog:
Backroom (also "MetaMafia")
Scummies
Almost Normal
Normal
White Flag

[Johhog]

Why do you think that SocioPath is town Benmage?

[Johhog]

To be honest it was much of a tie-breaker, I trusted Isa more with the game than I trusted myself with it. It's not that I wouldn't be able to handle it.

I don't have that many strong reads yet but these is the ones that I have:

Town:

Bub
Llamarble
Zach

Null-town:

CES

Not a fucking clue:

Amrun
Regfan
Singer
Socio
TSQ

Null-scum:

Matias
Haddock

Scum:

Benmage

I've skimmed a bit too much though, I'll reread and see if I adjust something.

[Johhog]

Amrun: It's mainly a gut-read but his last posts about his reads hasn't improved my view of him, I'm going further into that when he answers my question. I guess it started though with his CES vote in RVS, I didn't like that at all as I saw that CES post as pro-town.

PEdit: In what order Matias? Town to Sum?

[Johhog]

Gut? :/
SocioPaths's only post quoted for convenience:

Consider this me asking everyone why they chose this game.

Consider this me answering why I chose this game.


Also, hopefully since singer started in this game as opposed to replacing in, SHE KNOWS THE RULES THIS TIME.

I can't see how that is indicative of alignment at all.

[Johhog]

Johhog: My list is town to scum. General middle area is null.

Yeah, sorry, just couldn't resist that terrible, terrible pun.

[Johhog]

Isa claims that he complained multiple times about the White Flag setup in the chat. Why would you lie Regfan?

And yeah, I want some firm reasons as to why I'm scum because I see next to none reasons even though several people read me as such.

[Johhog]

And yeah, why am I not surprised that LLD thinks that I'm scum?

[Johhog]

I'm happy with my vote and I'll not change it before we reach a consensus in the team. As of now the four of us have 3 scum reads together and it's only one of us who has a scum read on either, Isa thinks that Zach is scum, PeregrineV thinks that CES is scum and I think that Benmage is scum.

But yeah, your case is weak. Like extremely weak. I just can't see how asking for a case is scummy.

[Johhog]

I was just reading your ISO and thinking pretty much exactly the things Bub said.
Also you have a lot of posts about not-relevant-to-who-is-scum things.

That's how I post but don't worry, I'll post less from time to time. I tend to post little but explode and post several posts a day from time to time.

[Johhog]

I'm attacked = I defend myself.

And reread my posts. I've scumhunted a little bit (but not as much as some others, I'm aware of that). I've never done that though as I'm heavy on gut, I try to ask a few important questions instead of several unnecessary.

[Johhog]

I have some limited access tomorrow as I'm in Denmark most of the day.

PEdit: A serious WTF. C'mon Socio, you've posted two posts in all this time and none of them had any content.

[Johhog]

Why the hell is Johhog an "easy lynch"?

He's a player in this game that I'm currently interested in.

Seriously? Look at the player list.

Fuck all of you. Have I even played with you before?

I'll reread a little and hopefully put together a post this evening.

[Johhog]

Sorry, my post sounded harsher than it was meant to be, it was supposed to be half joke half serious. But yeah, I get what you mean.

[Johhog]

What? That CES is scum or that PeregrineV thinks that CES is scum?

[Johhog]

Why?

Zar also suspects him now btw.

[Johhog]

UNVOTE: Benmage
VOTE: Amrun

[Johhog]

I'm in basically the same situation on Johhog.

I'd pay to know what this is, it's pretty hard to defend yourself otherwise.

But I'll tell you one thing; if you suspect me for out of game reasons (lex Regfan) I'll be fucking mad post-game.

[Johhog]

Sorry for not posting earlier, weekend and all. I'll read up.

[Johhog]

There are 13 players in this game, of which three are scum. The chance of TSQ being scum is completely random, since we have 0 reads on him at all. Do you consider a 23% chance to be reasonable?

This IS a good point.

Also if you want a comment on something else I have a town read on Haddock and feel similarly about the idea of his lynch as you apparently do for a lynch of TSQ.

You're contradicting yourself here. Bub is saying that a TSQ-lynch essentially would be a random lynch but you say that you have a townread on Haddock. Can you please clarify this?

Grey thinks Amrun's TSQ scumtell she can't talk about is BS for reasons I can't talk about.
I'm open to the possibility we just missed something though. It seems an odd thing to fake.

I guess she could've gotten the idea from my Johhogtell though.
And I know she can fake odd things.

Can we just seriously stop this out-of-game related chat before someone gets hurt?

^Town unless Johhog's scum.
Scum don't randomly spike plausible mislynches often, and especially don't put in a bunch of meta effort to do so.

Pretty much this.

It's like they ignore context all by themselves.

Oh yeah? Please point out the context for me.

I dont know how the round picking works... I thought you just picked the 4 you wanted.. Didn't know they were ranked.

Prolly WF was 1st, simply because it was #1 (no?)... And Both MoS and I said 1-3 for us.

I don't buy this. The chance is extremely small that your whole team would misinterpret the rules. That brings up the question of why you would lie. A guess might be that one of your team mates wanted the game but when he got a scum PM/town PM (probs scum PM) he didn't want it and you got it instead.

Thestatusquo has been prodded.

Again? It's really time for TSQ to contribute now.

It seems mainly based on an off-hand comment she made that doesn't really mean anything.

How did you get to that conclusion? I see a lot of points brought up against Amrun.

TSQ has posted on site approx 40 times since this game opened, just so everyone is aware... and Amrun's the leading wagon?

It's alarming for the sake of the game but please explain; how does that make him scum? I know from experience (for example this game) that posting little does not equal scum, I've not had that urge to post myself which makes it easy to see him thinking the same way.

And fuck, this game sure died by the looks of it. Hopefully it'll be resurrected soon.

[Johhog]

Why do you think that TSQ is scum?

[Johhog]

Well, I interpreted that the wrong way then. Sorry, English isn't my first language.

[Johhog]

Because I hate theme shit.

Since when?

Put another way: If I am being voted because I was lurking, and now I am not lurking, it makes no sense to continue voting me, since the genesis of the votes is no longer a relevant cause It is preferable to not lynch me here because now you have a chance to read me as opposed to lynching me blind. If my new content makes me seem suspicious to you, then thats a fine reason to vote me, but barring new suspicion, voting a player for lurking when they are no longer lurking makes no sense.

And I do want CES's comment explained, back to game relevant material.

Isn't the reason that you're suspected that you're not posting content, which you still aren't? (Ftr, TSQ just got scummier in my eyes since he actually posted but with almost none content)

I am aware its not a non-serious wagon. I just think that as long as I remain here and continue to post content that it should not remain a serious wagon. Surely there are better candidates to lynch than someone who just got caught up in the real world for a little bit.

Do you think you're posting content? Because I'm not agreeing. The only thing you've contributed is a vote on CES with some shitty reasoning.

I didn't really consider "very active" as part of the bargain. But still, then, we'll throw out TSQ, and even Sociopath, who is not "very" active. Johhoq came to mind - one scum read, Ben, no reasoning at all that I remember, which shows how good it was.

What? Perhaps that was true by page 5 but you should really reread.

Alright, TSQ is more active by this post but I still think my reasoning is valid as he didn't contribute at the time he wrote that post IMO.

[Johhog]

You're completely missing the point, everyone of you. I'm not saying that TSQ isn't contributing (which he is) but that he wasn't contributing at a time when he claimed to be, which means SCUM POINTS. But you want a straight answer to if I'd support a TSQ-lynch or not you can get one; I won't, not at this time. I read him as null leaning on scum.

[Johhog]

Well, obviously I'm talking about the ones commenting on that post of mine, not you. But I think you knew that already.

[Johhog]

He never claimed to be contributing when he wasn't. What?

#481 and #484.

Vote: Johhog

You're doing a ton of things that I don't like.

Not only are you crusading against TSQ for a stupid reason, you're backing off on a "null-scummy read" in order to pander to everyone. This is ridiculous and you're trying to backtrack.

I'm not backtracking off anything, I've never in this game been suspicious of TSQ until now (read my ISO). And did you seriously just say that I should vote my null-scum read TSQ instead of my scum read Amrun?

[Johhog]

Oh, is that really the catch? Because you're right, I might very well jump on his wagon if I can't get my scum reads lynched. What's the problem with that?

[Johhog]

I'm still not saying that he doesn't post content. C'mon now, I'm getting a little tired of this.

[Johhog]

I assure you it isn't. Believe me, in an utopia I would always get my top scum reads lynched but that's unfortunately not the reality. If I have to decide between lynching TSQ and say, CES, I'd choose TSQ any day.

[Johhog]

You don't think you could explain why I'm scum? I get that you misreading my TSQ comment is one point but there was others earlier, eh?

[Johhog]

Looks like
.... remainder actually.

Town:
Zachrulez
singersigner
SocioPath
Amrun
Benmage
Captain Haddock
Llamarble


Other:
Bub Bidderskins
Cogito Ergo Sum
Johhog
Matias
Regfan
Thestatusquo

Pretty happy with these town reads.

Town:
Zachrulez
singersigner
SocioPath
Amrun
Benmage
Captain Haddock
Llamarble
Johog
CES


Other:
Bub Bidderskins
Matias
Regfan
Thestatusquo

Pretty happy with these town reads.

FIXED

Town:
Zachrulez
singersigner
SocioPath
Benmage
Captain Haddock
Llamarble
CES
Matias
Regfan
Amrun


Other:
Johog
Bub Bidderskins
Thestatusquo

Pretty happy with these town reads.

FIXED

Lets try this again.

unvote vote Johog

Here's where I'm at:

Conftown via truth tells
Benmage
Zachrulez
singersigner

Most town looking
Regfan
Matias
Llamarble
Johhog

Other reasoning
SocioPath
Captain Haddock

Remainder:
Thestatusquo
Amrun
Bub Bidderskins
Cogito Ergo Sum

...

Seriously?

[Johhog]

Now look, this is the last time I'm explaining this and from now on you'll have to read yourselves. I'll try to explain it in a way that is easy to understand too:

A) TSQ posts a bit of fluff and a vote with zilch explanation.
B) When questioned TSQ says that he's been providing content.
C) Johhog calls TSQ out on it and tells him he hasn't.
D) TSQ provides content.
E) Everyone goes "Oh, Johhog, you scummy fuck, why did you say that TSQ didn't provide content when he clearly did?".
F) Johhog facepalms.

Seriously, that's how this conversation feels for me. It's idiotic and I won't explain it again.

[Johhog]

Yes it's a wall, suck it. I shouldn't get any further behind now because I'm all caught up (and don't need to catch up more, as the case was).

Also, Johhog gets a few extra town points for bringing up Benmage's bullshit with not calling Shea scum, when he clearly did.

@Matias...how do you feel about Benmage?

Uhmmm can you quote be calling him scum... I wouldn't be that surprised if I did more as a PoE thing, due to town reads etc etc... all I see is him in "other and remainder "....

-johog, I fail to see the point of your post... can you say something with more substance please.

My point is that if you're really suggesting that your "remainder" part of your reads weren't scum reads you haven't had a single scum read this game. Hence the "...seriously?". I also think that you're grasping at straws here because you clearly thought TSQ was scum at the time and you have a hard time explaining it away. Thirdly I'm angry because I seem to be close to the only one that find you scummy.

Hello, my friends and enemies

I have just a few things to say
I am a Captain, here to stay
With moves like fire
a killer desire
No wonder the scum won't come out and play
Afraid of my prowess, they hide and quiver
My sheer presence makes them

SHIVER

You're

who

?!

I'm happy with my vote and I'll not change it before we reach a consensus in the team. As of now the four of us have 3 scum reads together and it's only one of us who has a scum read on either, Isa thinks that Zach is scum, PeregrineV thinks that CES is scum and I think that Benmage is scum.

But yeah, your case is weak. Like extremely weak. I just can't see how asking for a case is scummy.

He's happy with his vote, despite never explaining more like he said he would.

I was happy with it and I would still be (team believed that there's a higher chance of you being scum). See Amrun, you're confusing unwillingness to explain votes for my inability to pressure people. I'm just bad at it. I realise I could've tried a little more this game though and yeah - I've not played that great this game. But I think you're painting completely normal behaviour for me as scummy and this makes you scummier in my eyes.

I'm in basically the same situation on Johhog.

I'd pay to know what this is, it's pretty hard to defend yourself otherwise.

But I'll tell you one thing; if you suspect me for out of game reasons (lex Regfan) I'll be fucking mad post-game.

I really hate this post. I kind of skimmed over it at the time, but it's been bugging me. I'm not sure what it is about it, but I find it scummy. I thought about it a little bit and decided I think it feels like a "scum annoyed to be caught for the wrong reasons" post.

To me it looks like "town annoyed that Llamarble is using out of game reasons to justify scum reads". I believe you're just trying to find reasons that I'm scum by now. The wording "I'm notsure what it is about it, but I find it scummy" is revealing.

You're completely missing the point, everyone of you. I'm not saying that TSQ isn't contributing (which he is) but that he wasn't contributing at a time when he claimed to be, which means SCUM POINTS. But you want a straight answer to if I'd support a TSQ-lynch or not you can get one; I won't, not at this time. I read him as null leaning on scum.

This really annoys me. We've been talking about how I don't think it's a valid attack. TSQ CLEARLY meant, "I'm here, I'm posting, and I'm trying to play this game," but Johhog tries to twist it into a scumtell because TSQ didn't post long analysis yet. I showed before how he was WRONG to say TSQ had posted no content, but even if that HAD been true, it's taking the heart of what TSQ was saying and twisting it in a way that I find really scummy.

Oh my fucking... I refuse to believe that you're this bad at reading which makes me think you're scum but seriously, look at this:

I am aware its not a non-serious wagon. I just think that as long as I remain here and continue to post content that it should not remain a serious wagon. Surely there are better candidates to lynch than someone who just got caught up in the real world for a little bit.

I just think that as long as I remain here and continue to post content that it should not remain a serious wagon.

I just think that as long as I remain here and continue to post content

continue to post content

How on earth am I twisting anything when it's there, black and white?

Johhog has now talked more about why TSQ is scum than anyone else in the game, period. And yet, his vote is on me. Why? I don't know. I don't think Johhog knows. It reeks of opportunism, and he's setting himself up to get on the popular votee TSQ's wagon should that become viable in deadline.

VOTE: Johhog

Oh god. I've said multiple times that I read TSQ as null leaning on scum, not more and not less which means that I would prefer you or Benmage or probably even SocioPath over TSQ. The reason that I'm mentioning TSQ so much is because I have to reiterate the same thing again and again because half of the players in this game apparently are illiterate.

It's like you're not even trying Amrun. You're only worried about getting lynched and thus you jump on another popular suspect - me.

Which reminds me - Johhog, can you provide me with some scum meta, please?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=18487
The only one I can recall right now, I have a couple of scum games in hydras too, I guess I can dig these up if it's really important. Is it?

I think you are confusing the 'wins above replacement' statistic with me saying something about playing well as a replacement.

Nah, I remember you saying that thing too. I don't think it's relevant to your alignment this game though.

Also if Amrun flips scum I think the chances that Socio is scum is decreased by quite a bit.

Please explain. I don't see anything that would indicate this.

Just to reiterate; I want Amrun lynched and it's obvious that she's trying to misrepresent me because I'm also suspected.

[Johhog]

Could you please tell me who you are?

[Johhog]

It's not that he is willing to switch to TSQ at deadline ... That's not the issue at all. It's how he chose to push THAT more than he ever pushed anything else, like his LEGITIMATE SCUMREADS, supposedly. It doesn't add up at all. If he had said that same thing about TSQ and said more about me and Benmage, it wouldn't bother me as much (or at all actually).

It's not even worth arguing with you as you're clearly not reading my responses, but here goes once again: I've not pushed TSQ much more than you, it's that I have to reiterate the same argument over and over (is it the sixth time now? Something like that at least).

@Johhog: ONCE AGAIN, you quote post 184 of Shea's saying that he was providing content and say it was false. I have ALREADY PROVEN that it was, in fact, true, and that you are wrong, but you are ignoring that.

You haven't proved anything, the only thing that you've proved is that posting = content for you, a definition that I think neither I or the majority of the town agree with. In case you change your mind/or you're willing to see my definition, read his ISO. Because I'm not explaining at again.

I really really want an Amrunlynch, and it's so evident that she's just trying to save her own skin that it hurts. She voted me with next to none suspicion of me before just because I looked like a likely lynch and now when a TSQ lynch is imminent she switched to him.

Trust me on this one. Amrun's actions are NOT pro-town and I think that we have a higher chance of hitting scum here than on TSQ who's just a lurker at this point.

Also, @Falcon: I hope you out yourself ASAP because as it stands now you have an unfair advantage as the only one in this competition we can't meta. Your team mates outed themselves, too.

[Johhog]

Also, scumday. Woooo!

[Johhog]

Johhog, YES you have talked about shea more than me. As I pointed out, and Zach agreed, you've given exactly zero reasons why I'm scum. In fact, that's the FIRST POST where yoi address it all (and poorly). And now I've pushed you about it.

And NO, posting does not equal content, but talking about alignments and game happenings are, and I showed where he did that.

Look, I've already countered these arguments but you're like a robot who just go on and on without reading the game.

Question: Johhog, do you prefer scum or town? Which do you think you're better at? Why?

Yeah, RTFT.

[Johhog]

Read The Fucking Thread.

[Johhog]

Oh yeah, nice catch Regfan.

[Johhog]

This (and the following two hours or so) are the last chances I have to check in before the deadline. I'll not comment on anything now though.

Also,

Mod: I'll be completely without access between May 22 and May 24. Sorry.

[Johhog]

I'm back now. Reading.

[Johhog]

I have a bad gut feeling of the Llamarble wagon and I think it might be scum driven (I think the case is weak and there was no wagon yesterday).

I'll also ask yet again why SocioPath isn't scum, because to me his lurking was ten times worse than TSQ's lurking but despite this TSQ was the only one to get called out for it.

[Johhog]

I'll also ask yet again why SocioPath isn't scum, because to me his lurking was ten times worse than TSQ's lurking but despite this TSQ was the only one to get called out for it.

What do you think of Zach?

I think he's town but my team was mixed on him last time I checked. We see him as town more than scum though.

[Johhog]

Don't act so confused. Benmage ain't doing shit, and that's not the Benmage I know.

Are there any examples of ScumBenmage acting like that? (Hint: the answer is no)

Any examples of TownBenmage acting lackadaisical? (Hint: Yep)

Oh god, please stop with the WIFOMy self meta.

[Johhog]

VOTE: Benmage

He's blatantly lurking and his only defence is some WIFOM bullshit. I'm willing to leave SocioPath for now as his play this game has been consistent at least while Benmage was active earlier but now when he isn't getting any heat he's just spouting out one-liners to dodge prods.

[Johhog]

I gotta say that I agree with Zach on this one.

Unlike him I do however think that Ben denying this makes him scummy as he's trying to avoid responsibility for his TSQ-read.

[Johhog]

I like the push for Benmage, it's nice to see someone understanding it.

As for Llamarble, he reads null to me. I'm not sure I even understand what the case is against him. Lurking?

[Johhog]

That's... three? Wouldn't that be close to average of how many wagons people have pushed?

Or are you referring to wagons you started? Because then you did only start Haddock's wagon IIRC while I, for example, who hasn't been that active started both the wagons on Amrun and Benmage.

[Johhog]

The notion that Regfan'd get nightkilled while being wrong about all of you, Llamarble and benmage is silly, Nacho.

Can't we just stop the NK analysis? It's WIFOMy as fuck and I can't see us benefiting from it at all.

[Johhog]

Please note that Llamarble now is at L-1.

I still don't like this. I will not vote Llamarble if I don't have to because of an approaching deadline. Benmage isn't even trying, pressing his "I would never lurk as scum" agenda while the case on Llamarble is weak at best.

[Johhog]

Not in a single post, no, but you should try actually reading the game and you'll find plenty of points brought up against you.

Now, as for the Llamarble lynch... I think it's ~75% risk that he's town. But I'm crossing my fingers.

[Johhog]

I could, but I won't start doing it in twilight.

And seriously, RTFT. You gotta try to convince us that you're town at least because either you're scum or useless as fuck.

[Johhog]

I'm willing to leave Benmage for now. We shouldn't clear him because of this but it's unlikely that he's scum considering that he was the competing wagon to Llamarble.

I don't really have any big suspects for now so I'll ask my teammates. Hang on.

[Johhog]

VOTE: Matias

Teammates agree on this one... I'll post more later.

[Johhog]

Matias, 12 hours ago:

CES is a strange kill.

My list of suspects is extremely low. Just Benmage, and that's not even too strong after that flip (purely doubt of my own reads).

I'll wait for everyone to check in I suppose with their reads. I'm lost.

Matias, now:

Matias, read on Bub?

Ehhhh.

He started off completely null, started becoming more town by the end of Day 1 and the start of Day 2, but that has tapered off recently. Like null-scumish?

I can say that my scummiest read right now is Socio. I'd say that you, Bub, Ben and Johhog are behind but to a significant degree I guess. Again, though, I have shit reads this game so far, so I'm not putting too much stock into them at the moment.

Socio has posted once since Matias first post, it was a vote... on Matias.

I gotta say that you're looking desperate Matias. Do you have something to admit?

You still see Johhog and I as possible scum?

;_;

Everyone's "possible" scum. I thought I just finished explaining that.

WROOOOOONGGG ANSWEEEERRR

I thought I was your second scum read. Now I'm just "possible scum", as everyone else?

[Johhog]

Also, Matias choosing to focus on Falcon's questionable use of the term "confirmed" is terrible.

[Johhog]

Preview edit: Why?

Because you're discussing the definition of the word "confirmed" instead of actually contributing. If you were town you would realise that it's outright anti-town to focus on things like that instead of scum hunting.

Not only that, but you're also using it as a bad excuse to express suspicion of Falcon (As if using confirmed the wrong way would make him scum!).

[Johhog]

Preview edit: Why?

Because you're discussing the definition of the word "confirmed" instead of actually contributing. If you were town you would realise that it's outright anti-town to focus on things like that instead of scum hunting.

Not only that, but you're also using it as a bad excuse to express suspicion of Falcon (As if using confirmed the wrong way would make him scum!).

It's not. I believe I said "either you're scum for using it or you don't understand how White Flag works", the latter being entirely possible.

Don't go around nitpicking on your own word choices. I'm absolutely, 100% sure that you don't actually think that Falcon doesn't understand the setup. Do you really think that a player as experienced as him wouldn't read the setup?

And this reads to me like you being sarcastic and now you're pretending that you were serious.

[Johhog]

I haven't really been able to get a really solid read on him throughout the game, but I did manage to file him off as town without really being able to put a reason behind why that was. Looking through his play yesterday, he pushed back against the Llamarble wagon to the point of saying he thought it might be scum driven while stating a null read on Llama himself. (The candidates for scum on that wagon at the point he said it would be bub, myself, and CES. We know CES's alignment. I know mine, and I think Bub is town who is tunneled on me.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here but obviously I don't think that it's scum driven anymore (

intentionally

at least), it would be pretty stupid to bus this early with this setup.

[Johhog]

I haven't really been able to get a really solid read on him throughout the game, but I did manage to file him off as town without really being able to put a reason behind why that was. Looking through his play yesterday, he pushed back against the Llamarble wagon to the point of saying he thought it might be scum driven while stating a null read on Llama himself. (The candidates for scum on that wagon at the point he said it would be bub, myself, and CES. We know CES's alignment. I know mine, and I think Bub is town who is tunneled on me.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here but obviously I don't think that it's scum driven anymore (

intentionally

at least), it would be pretty stupid to bus this early with this setup.

Yeah, I'm curious about the thought process at the time, not the thought process now.

I did not see the case against Llamarble (I

still

can't see it in retrospect but well, we were lucky) so when I saw the votes piling up against him I thought it was scum trying to jump on an easy target. That's it, basically.

Preview edit: Why?

Because you're discussing the definition of the word "confirmed" instead of actually contributing. If you were town you would realise that it's outright anti-town to focus on things like that instead of scum hunting.

Not only that, but you're also using it as a bad excuse to express suspicion of Falcon (As if using confirmed the wrong way would make him scum!).

It's not. I believe I said "either you're scum for using it or you don't understand how White Flag works", the latter being entirely possible.

Don't go around nitpicking on your own word choices. I'm absolutely, 100% sure that you don't actually think that Falcon doesn't understand the setup. Do you really think that a player as experienced as him wouldn't read the setup?

And this reads to me like you being sarcastic and now you're pretending that you were serious.

I've been serious the whole time.

You can sit there and be like "Oh, white flag. Once you lynch two scum, you win. Cool, I understand it", but when mith voted Llamarble last year, everyone went around saying that they couldn't be connected and I doubt a single townie understood the intricacies of how this setup works. I was the same way. Shit like that can be harmful, because it is

how we lost last year

.

But that's not what we're discussing at all! It's simple really, you're not confirmed if you're not either dead or confirmed by a now dead sane cop. Buses doesn't matter at all here.

[Johhog]

I haven't really been able to get a really solid read on him throughout the game, but I did manage to file him off as town without really being able to put a reason behind why that was. Looking through his play yesterday, he pushed back against the Llamarble wagon to the point of saying he thought it might be scum driven while stating a null read on Llama himself. (The candidates for scum on that wagon at the point he said it would be bub, myself, and CES. We know CES's alignment. I know mine, and I think Bub is town who is tunneled on me.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply here but obviously I don't think that it's scum driven anymore (

intentionally

at least), it would be pretty stupid to bus this early with this setup.

Yeah, I'm curious about the thought process at the time, not the thought process now.

I did not see the case against Llamarble (I

still

can't see it in retrospect but well, we were lucky) so when I saw the votes piling up against him I thought it was scum trying to jump on an easy target. That's it, basically.

Yeah, but who did you think WAS the scum pushing the wagon then? The thought process is fine as town if you have a particular suspect in mind, but with no clearly seen mindset of who's the likely scum pushing the wagon, it's just an empty comment meant to put a bitter taste on the wagon for anyone that's considering putting a vote there.

While what you're saying does make sense I'm not going to lie, I did not have any particular suspect in mind (I did intend to reread later but I was, well, too lazy). I did have some suspicions about all of you though. I had a strong town read on you but someone in my team (Isa IIRC) did have a scum read on you at the time. I read CES as town too but the rest of my team thought he was scum. Meanwhile I had second thoughts about Bub, someone who I've had a strong town read on all game. I do now not consider him more than null.

In short: I did believe that at least one scum were pushing the wagon but I did not know who.

[Johhog]

Actually.

UNVOTE: Matias
VOTE: Nachomamma

We talked this over in our QT. I'll admit that we're not sure in our scum read on him but it's so tempting to read him as scum. So many connections...

Bub/Nacho
Matias/Nacho
Socio/Nacho

[Johhog]

Nacho has been pressuring Socio all game without placing a vote on him. Until now, when there's like 5% a Sociolynch will happen. Then he'll use that as a way to deny connections with him etc. later.

Tired as fuck but go ISO him and CTRL+F Socio if you want to know now. I'll be back tomorrow.