TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Matias]

Vote: Llamarble

.

[Matias]

CES' first post comes off as null to me.

Bub's post and response strike me as townish.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

[Matias]

Wait, really?

Who are your scumreads so far then? singer doesn't count; that logic is null at this point.

[Matias]

There's a reason why I chose Llamarble at the beginning. Scum would likely hop onto a bandwagon being pushed against someone formerly scum in a game like this in an attempt to fit in, assuming Llamarble is town (or possibly even if he's not).

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

[Matias]

Matias... I'm not familiar with White Flag history... assuming llama was scum there? Were you also in the game?

Correct, I was. Scumteam was mith, DGB, Llamarble.

[Matias]

There's a reason why I chose Llamarble at the beginning. Scum would likely hop onto a bandwagon being pushed against someone formerly scum in a game like this in an attempt to fit in, assuming Llamarble is town (or possibly even if he's not).

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

It depends on the context. If you want me to be honest, I didn't even notice Haddock until you asked me about him.

The question of the day for me is whether you came up with the "he posted too early" reasoning before my question about him or after. If it's the former, you're scum. It seems like convoluted reasoning but I'll make that judgment later on in the game.

I'm leaving this be for right now.

Singer hates being scum, going off of meta knowledge of her.

Vote: CES

. Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

[Matias]

I've noticed myself and others doing voteplanz more often as scum than as town at the start of a game.
I think scum think more about how they're going to play the early game than town do.

BTW I picked this game because I had a great experience last year and I like the setup.

Oh right, I'm sorry I did something that falls under your own personal scum meta. I'll refer to my fortune teller next time.

I was certain that Llamarble was going to be the first one wagoned in a sequel to the same format game last year in which he was scum. I don't like RVS.

I think Matias tried to encourage suspicion of me without comitting himself and he's asked for opinions without giving any.

I don't find bandwagoning scummy, avoiding bandwagons is something I'd see as more likely to extend RVS.

Then what are your thoughts on Haddock?

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

This is what I'm talking about. Not "early at all"! "After 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon" , like that was anything other than 3 rvs votes on the same person.

Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

What analysis? I just ISOed you and I can't see any. Notepad?

VOTE: Matias

...I was actually analyzing Zach, but okay.

[Matias]

There's a reason why I chose Llamarble at the beginning. Scum would likely hop onto a bandwagon being pushed against someone formerly scum in a game like this in an attempt to fit in, assuming Llamarble is town (or possibly even if he's not).

I don't agree with you. I don't think Haddock's "vote" was early at all. It was after 3 votes on Llamarble's bandwagon. Do you agree that, if you don't find bandwagoning scummy, that those that avoid bandwagoning are instead the scummy ones? Or do you feel like that isn't necessarily the case?

Unvote

It depends on the context. If you want me to be honest, I didn't even notice Haddock until you asked me about him.

The question of the day for me is whether you came up with the "he posted too early" reasoning before my question about him or after. If it's the former, you're scum. It seems like convoluted reasoning but I'll make that judgment later on in the game.

I'm leaving this be for right now.

Singer hates being scum, going off of meta knowledge of her.

Vote: CES

. Read my earlier post on my bandwagon analysis.

Haddock, if you had read this, you wouldn't believe what you are saying.

You're suspect. I have a firm belief that CES tried to blend in, however.

What are your thoughts on CES, Haddock?

[Matias]

This is dumb. Not everyone played in the same game or was in TM at all, so they wouldn't have any way of knowing who was what in which game. This is also a faulty theory that can't be proven (like it literally can't be proven until the end of the game, everyone flips, and we go back and analyze the very first wagon on Llamarble) and looks like you completely made it up to gain town points. Not to mention that I would seriously question someone's intelligence if that was their logic for "fitting in."

I don't really understand any of your logic.

I'm saying that the RVS wagon at the start was most likely going to be on Llamarble, and it was. I voted first to kickstart that.

I'm saying that as scum, wandering away from that wagon might make them suspect, so to feel safe, they would probably want to jump on in order to elicit a "oh, this is what a townie would post" response. What does anything you just said have to do with RVS wagons?

[Matias]

Hell, you could go back at anytime and review the game itself. That scumteam was nominated for a scummy. There's plenty of reason to believe that Llamarble was going to be wagoned.

[Matias]

Hell, you could go back at anytime and review the game itself. That scumteam was nominated for a scummy. There's plenty of reason to believe that Llamarble was going to be wagoned.

Are you seriously listening to yourself? A biiiiig pat on the back for Matias who correctly started a wagon on...the person he started a wagon on.

A wagon is a wagon. Pretending that you predicted some almighty scumhunting thingy ZOMGZIKNEWWHOPEOPLEWOULDVOTEFOR. Congrats, you voted for someone first and STARTED THE WAGON YOURSELF. >_>

You seem to have thought this through quite thoroughly. "What would scum do..." OH I KNOW.

unvote
vote: Matias

Preview Edit:
Well that was a cheeky response.

Are you people not listening? I said it was an

RVS

wagon.

If you all should know, the game started. I took a look at the player list, saw Llamarble and knew exactly what everyone was going to do. It wasn't some mad scientist scheme.

[Matias]

Singer, you're acting like people who are on RVS wagons want to lynch right off the bat. I'm saying that BECAUSE it's an RVS wagon, it's the "cool town kid" thing to do to vote for the person who won as scum last game, which I'm sure a lot of the people in this game know about, because this playerlist doesn't have a single incompetent person in it. That would attract scum to the late vote on the wagon.

Why the hell are you saying that this is some made up scheme as if the Llamarble wagon was serious? It was a joke wagon, but it had some semantic value.

[Matias]

I actually agree with Amrun; I think everyone stating why they took the game will provide at least some beneficial information. I took the white flag slot because my team consider me the stronger scumhunter inside us and because I really prefer games with minimal power roles involved in them.

I have relatively strong town reads on Zach and Singer at the moment and a weaker ones on Bub and Captain. I don't find Matias plan as scummy, I think he'd do it regardless of his alignment. I do find his 'the question of the day is if you made it up or not, if you did you're scum' rant as scummy though, especially with it followed by 'leaving it for now'. Slaxx has told me he can read Matias like a book though so I'll wait for his thoughts.

Johhog

, I remember Isa making a comment somewhere that he wanted to be in white flag and his team mates didn't, so may I ask why you're here?

Llarmable

, I disagree with almost all of your reasoning behind 'townpoints' handed out. Not completely thinking through a post before posting it is more likely to be player-related than alignment related and inclusion of words like 'heck' aren't town-tells in the slightest. I don't remember you ever handing out townpoints for things so meaningless, do you by any chance have a link to a game where you've done-so as town?

Vote: Johhog

I'd like to know what Slaxx has to say about the playerlist in general, actually. It might give some insight.

I put the Zach question aside because it's not a question that's easily answered on page two of this game. It's worth noting later on.

Actually, does everyone want to relay QT related information about teammates' thoughts? I don't mind discussing what's up in my QT.

Amrun, you had a question about why we joined WF. I really like the setup; it highlights skill over luck. I would have joined Closed Normal had there been no WF.

[Matias]

Just now, or when I brought it up in the first place?

[Matias]

No quotes. Paraphrase.

One of my teammates sees scum in bub. Another disagrees vehemently, and I'm split down the middle. I can't analyze him on either end of the spectrum.

[Matias]

It's an RVS wagon in the sense of the following features:

1. It was made with absolutely no information in mind
2. It was made with no intent to lynch

I voted first to kick off the wagon, yes. If that's your problem, know that it was merely a theory at the time that Llamarble would even HAVE a wagon. I can't predict the future, but my money was on the fact that Llamarble was getting a wagon anyway.

It doesn't skew the information by just placing a first vote or even kicking it off in the first place. It creates the precedence and gave us information. We now know that we had a wagon on a person who was scum last game, and four people joined it. My theory from that is that scum would join in fear of being tagged as scummy and it would give them a better chance to blend in. My first vote has nothing to do with skewing that.

I understand where you got that viewpoint, however. You're just seeing it in a different light.

[Matias]

Just now, or when I brought it up in the first place?

Both.

Oh, and in my QT CooLDoG thinks that Zach looks like town. But he also thinks that Zach is she, so take that where you will .

Because, when I put down my vote, I had high expectations that a wagon like that would give decent information. It did, and I explained why. There isn't much else to it.

[Matias]

I think relaying information from the QT is fine in doses. The only real thought on the playerlist that Slaxx/my team-mates stated pre-game was that he thought you'd be more likely to rejoin this setup as scum rather than town considering how last year went down. Also that Zach would take a town slot and we agreed that most of the playerlist would have joined this setup regardless of alignment.

I understand. I'm not panning to meta, and I don't need to.

[Matias]

Ben, that post is weird. What kind of question is "Where did I get that opinion from"?

[Matias]

Ben, that post is weird. What kind of question is "Where did I get that opinion from"?

Why would you ever believe scum would push someone because they were scum in the previous game? Like legitimately push? Or RVS?

Did you not listen to the part where I said it was to blend in during RVS, or what

This is the kind of stuff people aren't reading.

[Matias]

For the record, I'm still waiting for Haddock's response to my question on how he feels about CES mainly.

Let me just recap for those of you who don't get it.

So I joined this game. I looked at the thread when it started, because I've been busy with finals. I took a look at the playerlist. I saw Llamarble, but no mith or DGB. So, with that in mind, I figured that a Llamarble wagon would start because "u were totally scumzors during last WF" dumb logic. I thought, "what would scum do in this situation?" and came to the conclusion that they would most likely vote Llamarble as well to fit in. So I voted to influence a wagon on Llamarble to see who would join it.

Amrun, then singer, then CES. Zach, however, posted something that I wanted to know more about, so before I put my vote on CES, I analyzed him early game. Inconclusive, so I placed my vote on CES.

For the record, my reply to Llamarble's "scum meta" comment was sarcasm. I couldn't give a damn about what his scum meta is and my actions falling under that, because it's his scum meta, not my scum meta.

[Matias]

Hopefully that clears up stuff like "why did you think scum would want Llamarble lynched" and "why do you believe that it was a serious wagon" strawmans

[Matias]

I should post a read list too. Ask if you have questions.

Singer
Regfan
Amrun
Llamarble
Socio
Bub
Zach
Johhog
Benmage
Haddock
CES

TSQ hasn't posted yet

[Matias]

Ben, that post is weird. What kind of question is "Where did I get that opinion from"?

Why would you ever believe scum would push someone because they were scum in the previous game? Like legitimately push? Or RVS?

Did you not listen to the part where I said it was to blend in during RVS, or what

I just don't understand how you come to that belief..... How is voting previous scum blending in... shit I think it would spur more spotlight.

I'm kind of stunned at how hard this is to understand for you. Try just ISOing me and then come back when you do understand. I've repeated myself like 5 times.

My placing is based purely on the "scum would blend in" argument that doesn't actually apply to me, right, DH?

Your vote on Llamarble was terrible in general. Why do you think it wouldn't apply to you?

Johhog: My list is town to scum. General middle area is null.

[Matias]

@Matias...One of the problems I had (which Benmage noticed) was the comparison to "in a game like this" referencing Team Mafia specifically, when we have no previous meta to pull from. It's a completely fabricated opinion with no history to back it up. If zoraster does Team Mafia again NEXT year, however, this might hold some water if you're right.

Or do you mean in any white flag game ever?

Preview Edit:
Ok, so...I can see that, but I completely disagree with the way you went about it. Like, I feel like you really negated the outcome because you started it, but whatever, I see your point, however funny it seems.

Also, what was scummy about CES and not myself or Amrun?

I've played with you enough to know that you avoid scum roles like the plague. I could have been wrong but your play has really suited my guess. Amrun was too early on the wagon.

I still don't think I negated the point, but I'm not going to argue semantics. I'm just happy people get it

[Matias]

Explain your scum reads Mat.

You, because you aren't reading that well. Haddock, because he completely took a selfish "don't target me" route with his logic when the whole discussion was about Zach. CES because of scummy RVS voting.

[Matias]

Explain your scum reads Mat.

You, because you aren't reading that well. Haddock, because he completely took a selfish "don't target me" route with his logic when the whole discussion was about Zach. CES because of scummy RVS voting.

Shitty X3.

As for me, looks omgusy. Scum or town are more likely to "not read well"?

Your logic was barely clear, though. I honestly had no clue why you would vote someone if you had so many questions that needed to be answered that could be if you 1. read clearly and 2. asked. Your vote was the 4th on me, too.

Edit: Yes, DemonHybrid. it's in my sig.

[Matias]

Your vote on Llamarble was terrible in general. Why do you think it wouldn't apply to you?

It doesn't apply to me because I always place my vote on the biggest bandwagon at the beginning of a game. Purest meta null tell you're likely to find.

Is that so.

Can you link examples then?

[Matias]

I'd look myself but I usually don't go much further than the wiki, and you have no games posted. The Llamarble RVS wagon is useless if you have meta of this.

[Matias]

Unvote, Vote: Captain Haddock

. I'll take your word for it.

[Matias]

That was directed to CES.

[Matias]

Sorry for not quoting. Im out to eat.

Edit: Zachrules, offense taken, blah blah blah? I made that argument the post after he made it...

[Matias]

Haddock, I posted at least once of every thing in this game that you said I was lacking.

[Matias]

Or rather, things that you think doesn't make sense were explained. Final soon, I'll get more indepth later.

Open question: Does TSQ have meta on lurking as scum?

[Matias]

Funny, I haven't really liked Johhog's play all game either

This is something my teammates and I talked about in the QT.

[Matias]

Haddock, I'm definitely pushing you. I'd just rather not lynch you immediately until all arguments are on the table for Day 2, plus, Shea hasn't even posted.

[Matias]

Final soon, but it's my last one. Will reply soonish, but it's mostly just terrible pinning of suspicion. I'm not sure if he forgot that my original argument against him was for taking my analysis of Zach as a personal attack on him.

I'm never opposed to analyzing others, though. I'm actually trying to figure out Johhog at the moment, mainly.

[Matias]

Why the hell is Johhog an "easy lynch"?

He's a player in this game that I'm currently interested in.

[Matias]

I don't think that's true, but to each his own. I just think it has to do with perception of competency and respect, not sign up date.

[Matias]

Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. So not sure why you're disagreeing.

Experience reads to me as "how long you have been playing", so

I mean, it's all semantics. Johhog to me is not an easy lynch. No one is.

[Matias]

Well, this game is off to a terrible start. My sincerest apologies. I am getting my butt kicked right now. I still haven't read anything, and I just received my second prod. I am sorry.

ಠ_ಠ

A big debate going on in the thread is because you're posting elsewhere but gave this no time. You realize that, right?

[Matias]

TSQ, Im taking that whole "getting butt kicked" as a lie until you explain why you arent getting your "butt kicked" enough not to be posting in other threads.

[Matias]

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

I think what he means is that at this point, most onlookers to the Me vs. Haddock feud would narrow it down to town vs. scum. He just believes that Haddock is the town one. I think that's based on the fact that I told Haddock to search my replies to his case, because I'm not writing them down again.

[Matias]

Reg: I think Benmage was 100% meta on that flip. I was scum with him during a game before, and he knows I take the convoluted route as town (I have a crazy thought process and will throw myself into blah blah blah blah, you know this, as town. However, I'm more reserved and calculated as scum)

He just recognized this meta with DemonHybrid, not Matias.

[Matias]

mm...I'm getting a second opinion on whether TSQ-lurking + TSQ-lying about meatworld problems + out-of-game posting = TSQ scum from my team. I'll give you guys an update because I'm at a loss.

[Matias]

But there is a good point in there about Matias somewhere? If so, I'd like you to point it out, because I dont' see it.

The point about him fueling suspicion about Haddock without committing to it. I see it as a valid point.

I still have a town read on Matias for overall play, but I can see Haddock's position coming from a pro-town POV.

Oh, didn't see this.

My two main arguments were against CES (now out of date) and Haddock. I'm just feeling around. Johhog, TSQ, Benmage all pique my interest but that doesn't mean I've forgotten Haddock.

This is Day 1, it's instrumental and I think we all know that.

[Matias]

Unvote

.

I'm not buying the Amrun wagon, but I like Haddock's observation.

Re-reading.

[Matias]

My teammates came up with this as the only huge problem with Amrun:

And my issue with explaining town reads in such detail - EXCEPT when it is vital in order to prevent that town member from being lynched - is long standing. A) It gives a map to scum for the NK. You addressed this earlier so I thought this was self-evident. Apologies. But there is a B) it allows scum to modify their behavior to engender town reads from the players they think that it is most strategically useful to engender town reads in. For example, if I said Player X is scummy because he's too passive, and Player Y is townish because she is so aggressive, Player X can try to act more aggressive to fit into my town reads.

This apparently is a lie because she was town in a game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3540935

She kept explaining her town read on Shattered Viewpoint in this game. Everyone found it weird because SV wasn't close to being lynched and she ended up being town in this game

She really has no problem as town explaining her town reads when the person isn't close to being lynched.

Both of these bring Amrun to a neutral-scummy, but I'm not sure I like how the wagon started.

[Matias]

I think my main issue is Llamarble's vote.

Vote: Amrun

It's something to keep in mind regardless. I want Amrun to explain herself.

[Matias]

Unvote

Don't shoot the messenger. Jeez, they brought up that context, not me.

[Matias]

Rhinox posted that. I've yelled at him in the QT.

[Matias]

Oh oops, he mentioned it offhand like a post after that. Just ignore that, I really didn't check the end of the game for role clarification, I just assumed you were a VT.

Yeah I haven't a fucking clue, I'm not really reading my QT as closely as I thought.

[Matias]

Amrun is neutral to me now that I realized that she had a cop inno

Damn I'm more embarrassed than anything, I swear I'm not stupid, I just didn't check my facts

Edit: Nothing since Amrun. They're more concerned with Almost Normal, for good reason. This game is a little slow.

[Matias]

I asked them about TSQ but didn't get an answer quite yet. I have no clue what to make of his obvlurking. I don't even know if it's even inherently scummy.

My reads are a jumble after Haddock's last post

[Matias]

...do you have NOTHING else to say?

[Matias]

Just give us a full read list, please.

[Matias]

A lot of people have said that, IIRC.

[Matias]

You aren't obligated to do anything, but contribution would be pretty nice and that's a start, seeing as how you're up on the chopping block and I can't read a damn thing from your lurking.

[Matias]

Alright. If you say so. People are talking about lynching you; this isn't a non-serious wagon on you.

I offered a suggestion of a read list because it's easy for anyone to post and it gives us something to start with. I know how getting behind can feel. But if you can handle it, whatever. I just want to be able to have some content from you because you have my wracking my brain by simply not doing anything.

[Matias]

This shouldn't be an issue now, so whatevs. I should be getting sleep.

For the record: My teammates are posting reads, but not everyone has finished. I'll relay them when they finish.

[Matias]

Johhog, he barely got off the ground with the quotes that you made.

Can someone please explain to me why teammate-meta says Johhog is town?

[Matias]

My teammates reads so far:

Rhinox says that scum is within Haddock, Benmage, Zach, TSQ. However, I don't think I agree with these. Reg, Amrun and Bub are town to him, the rest are null/lean town. I agree with Reg and Bub, not so much Amrun, who I'm still neutral with.

None of his reads are really strong except for Reg, Amrun and Bub. The TSQ read may be out of date.

iam and Fonz are still reading.

[Matias]

I'd like Socio's read on TSQ when he comes back, too. He's starting to irk me.

[Matias]

Vote: Johhog

You're doing a ton of things that I don't like.

Not only are you crusading against TSQ for a stupid reason, you're backing off on a "null-scummy read" in order to pander to everyone. This is ridiculous and you're trying to backtrack.

[Matias]

Reg, I don't buy that Johhog is town this game. If the ONLY reason why Johhog is town is because of his preference for non-scum, that isn't enough.

[Matias]

No, I'm saying that you're full speed ahead on pinning things to TSQ that he's never done, but giving him the "benefit of the doubt" by saying that he's null in order to maintain a neutral stance on his wagon, which is a hot topic. It doesn't sit well with me, almost as if you're setting up an out to get onto his wagon should it grow. I don't like it.

[Matias]

Oh, is that really the catch? Because you're right, I might very well jump on his wagon if I can't get my scum reads lynched. What's the problem with that?

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm.

[Matias]

To be fair, CES was an example, but it doesn't ring any less bullshit bells when it comes to his reasons on setting up his out on the TSQ wagon.

I want Johhog hung.

[Matias]

Yeah, singer, it's funny how that conveniently came after his third fucking prod.

[Matias]

I seriously don't get the connection of TSQ's lurking to some ulterior motive, like wagons or whatever. I don't like this wagon pushing and I don't like the multiple people skirting around his lurking being "scummy"

Johhog is the worst ever and I wish everyone can see that

[Matias]

I'm here. On vacation, but still have access.

Reading the last few pages

[Matias]

Amrun's motivations are looking weirder but I'm not sure if they're necessarily scummy.

I will do some analysis when I'm not drunk.

[Matias]

P.S. people should start compromising onto the sheawagon soonish.

Actually I believe he's town at this point. I have no clue why you're so dead set on his lynch when your original arguments are pretty defunct and it seems like you're just grasping straws to keep it alive. However, you're probably simply stubborn.

[Matias]

The only two people I will compromise a lynch on is Johhog and POSSIBLY Amrun (it's not preferred; I see SOME town qualities in her but I can also see her as scum)

I will not vote Shea or CES. The out on Shea is fucking ridiculous, for the record.

[Matias]

The wagon on TSQ is indeed pure shit.

Johhog or Amrun. I'll throw down the hammer vote, but you guys choose, because I'm not lynching anyone else at this point. Sorry.

[Matias]

Unvote

[Matias]

I both think Shea is town at this point AND the wagon on him is opportunistic.

[Matias]

I both think Shea is town at this point AND the wagon on him is opportunistic.

Ok. Why do you think he's town?

Also if you want/don't mind an Amrun lynch and hate a TSQ one then you should be placing your vote down on Amrun now. Waiting for the hammer to vote is dumb.

Because the only thing people have on him is a late start. He's explained himself, scumhunted (though at a lesser degree) and just tried to get into the swing of things, but people keep throwing strawmans at him.

Amrun has too many holes in her cases, so I'm fine with her lynch. Certainly not as ideal as Johhog but this wagon is full speed and it's the only other one I'm okay with.

Unvote, Vote: Amrun

[Matias]

If you have anything to say, say it now. I don't want CES yelling about Shea anymore because that's a dumb fucking wagon.

[Matias]

Also, Benmage, should all parties be alive tomorrow, I want your thoughts like first thing. It's weird that you'd just show up at game start and then day end like this.

[Matias]

Benmage, your first post better be what I asked for.

[Matias]

Vote: Benmage

. Maybe this will be incentive. I didnt like your show of face at the end of the day while at the same time avoiding most of Day 1 past the first few pages.

[Matias]

It's not a pressure vote, it's a "I want you dead until you explain why you were gone for half of Day 1 if the reasons so suit my unvote" vote. Your uninvolvement was scummy.

[Matias]

Benmage/Johhog/Socio maybe? is my call.

[Matias]

Again, the shea wagon would be dumb. He's sort of useless this game. He is NOT scummy.

[Matias]

Again, the shea wagon would be dumb. He's sort of useless this game. He is NOT scummy.

Can you point to where it's ok to coast throughout an entire game while making empty promises that you'll contribute? I don't know about you, but this is fucking ridiculous. Get him to replace the fuck out. I don't care. I just know I'm not about to let someone just ride the follies of people defending his lack of participation. He needs to hang. Now.

Vote: singersigner

Wanting him to replace out =/= wanting him to hang. Which is it?

[Matias]

Matias, has The Fonz commented at all on this game?

Singer, shea is Tomorrow's wagon. Llamarble is Today's scum flip.

Not as much as the others. He can comment a bit more on this game now, though, so I'll ask him.

[Matias]

singer, you just killed your town read with that post though, honestly.

I'm starting to see you, socio and benmage.

[Matias]

nope. singer, you did it fucking again.

Is this a SHEA problem or an ALIGNMENT problem? Answer me.

[Matias]

No, that's not my problem with you. My problem is that in the same post, you demanded him to "replace out" AND "hang".

You obviously don't care about his alignment. You care about the player. Yell until you're blue in the face for him to replace out, but you made it clear that you're frustrated that you didn't get the slot lynched.

[Matias]

That being wildly different than what you posted in 775, by the way.

[Matias]

*777, not 775.

I apparently can't subtract

[Matias]

My stance has ALWAYS been "How the fuck do you know it isn't just Shea himself", which everyone has failed to explain. "Promising content and not delivering" is not MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE to scummy behavior and in the post that I didn't like, you slightly crossed over to the side of "Shea should replace out" while still retaining "Shea should die".

I don't have to pressure a person who I know probably wont post content because he doesn't feel like he CAN for whatever reason.

[Matias]

This is team mafia for christ sakes.

You're saying that someone decided to pick a scum role when they could have given it to someone else, lurk for days, give bullshit excuses about their family and make a thinly veiled attempt to scumhunt in TEAM MAFIA. And you really truly believe that?

Unless 3-4 members of his team drew scum, I HIGHLY DOUBT that Shea would throw himself onto the scum role in such conditions. Do you really believe what you are saying, singer?

[Matias]

I don't buy it. You, for one, should know how much easier it is to post around site than it is to get into a 20+ page game coming out of barely posting at the start. You still haven't answered how it's not the fact that it's TSQ HIMSELF doing this, but in fact, it's a product of him being scum. This is all stuff that could be scum behavior, but it's also stuff I see TSQ doing as ANY ALIGNMENT. You are ignoring that and if you are scum, you fucked up by not getting off of his wagon sooner. I'm betting that you fucked up. Even CES doesn't care about lynching TSQ any longer, and he's probably town.

You wanting TSQ gone isn't bothering me, it's because you don't even care to fucking wait around for a replacement and you straight up slipped saying that you want him replaced AND you want him lynched.

You keep telling me that I'm not reading, but you aren't

listening

because you're frustrated. I think that you're frustrated that you didn't get an easy lynch off. It's that simple.

[Matias]

I fell asleep, sorry

I simply don't think Shea would put himself into this kind of position as scum. It doesn't seem right to me. I can argue all day about how much it's easier to post around site than it is to commit yourself to a game which I honestly think he tried to do (and gave me a town read as a result).

And again, I believe you're scum because you now have showed that you don't care about the alignment of the slot, you just care about lynching TSQ without realizing or caring that he could be doing this as town. I really can't say much else other than that other than you made that clear in the post I voted you over. He was 3 votes from being lynched yesterday and I think the frustration spilled over to today.

[Matias]

I'm going to see how Nacho plays. This may turn completely around. Bad play and laziness doesn't mean someone is scum when someone is obviously somewhat lazy in general (sorry Shea)

[Matias]

I want to hear more from Socio and Llamarble.

[Matias]

Not really? The ultimatum at the end of yesterday was Amrun and TSQ.

Vote Count 1.30

Amrun (7) - Johhog, Regfan, Bub Bidderskins, Llamarble, Captain Falcon, SocioPath, Matias

Thestatusquo (4) - singersigner, Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Amrun
Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - Benmage, Thestatusquo

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

The deadline is Monday, May 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM EDT (UTC-4).[/area]

Mod Notes

Amrun is V/LA until May 21.
Johhog is V/LA from May 22 to May 24.

Scum frustration for not getting everyone to lynch TSQ today makes perfect sense when all singer has been doing around Amrun was throwing rhetorical questions towards her and just simply saying Amrun is acting weird around Shea. She hardly made a committed read on Amrun all day yesterday.

[Matias]

You'd think that scum singer would be happy with the way the Amrun wagon took off on it's own, basically.

[Matias]

Meaning that she was frustrated yesterday when the TSQ lynch didn't automatically happen, happy when Amrun took off (and kind of coached it along by arguing with Amrun a bit) and THEN was equally frustrated when someone (me) fought against the TSQ lynch today.

I really don't see a problem here. You probably don't see it because you equally hate TSQ, but at least you aren't saying that he should be replaced and lynched in the same post.

[Matias]

Like I'm saying, it's not the crusade against TSQ that got me, it's the fact that singer hinted that he should be replaced and then said that he needs to hang.

Again, the shea wagon would be dumb. He's sort of useless this game. He is NOT scummy.

Can you point to where it's ok to coast throughout an entire game while making empty promises that you'll contribute? I don't know about you, but this is fucking ridiculous.

Get him to replace the fuck out. I don't care.

I just know I'm not about to let someone just ride the follies of people defending his lack of participation.

He needs to hang. Now.

Are you willing to comment on this or just chalk it up to "town" frustration? Her being frustrated that TSQ didn't get lynched is a supplement to my case, this is the real crux. And I'm saying that there's a HUGE difference between wanting him to replace out because of player frustrations and wanting him dead because he's scum (which I think the arguments here are bullshit).

[Matias]

And no, singer, the fact that you posted "I don't care" doesn't mean shit because the fact remains that posting that someone should replace out and someone should die in the same post is a MAJOR contradiction, you can't justify that.

[Matias]

Well, I think it would. I think it's just an easy argument to make and a vote to fall back on, so we can agree to disagree there.

You honestly think the contradiction is pro-town irrationality, though?

Preview edit: Can someone fucking explain this to me then? Saying that "oh, but singer is town because anyone who's frustrated and town can make the mistake of wanting someone dead and replaced out at the same time" is a fucking red herring.

[Matias]

I want to know why wanting a player replaced out and wanting a slot dead is not something that contradicts each other in the sense of "I think it's the player" and "I don't think it's the player, it's the alignment".

[Matias]

If I see a convincing enough argument, I will back off, but I have not seen a single one. Town frustration isn't good enough. Prove me wrong.

[Matias]

We can't afford just lynching lazy players for the sake of them being gone.

[Matias]

Well, maybe people should.

Nacho, another player, has taken over TSQ's slot, so we can see how he plays, if he plays any better at all. Why does he have to straight up die because TSQ was lazy?

[Matias]

Vote can stay on singer for now. Until someone gives me a sufficient answer at least. I'm not infallible, but I think that if she's willing to have TSQ be replaced, it undermines everything she is attacking him for in the sense of TSQ's slot being scum.

[Matias]

I'd rather hear from Llamarble first before I make judgment on him.

[Matias]

Me too, kind of, but I'd rather have him catch up.

[Matias]

Oh good, for a second, I was doubting you were townish, but I like that.

[Matias]

Fonz got back to me.

He hasn't been on MS a lot since he died in his game. He hasn't been checking up lately, but he will see what he can do. He really doesn't like the WF setup at all though.

[Matias]

I understand what youre saying, but if youre willing to have him replace out or have someone convince you otherwise, THAT is why Im not liking your stance on it, because it sounds like youre targeting the player, not the slot. This is what I mean. Its that youre WILLING to have him replace out, not that you asked him to (though thatd be much worse)

Im on my phone, so I have to reread this entire argument.

[Matias]

Oh look, nachomamma is posting a lot more than TSQ, how

strange

, right singer?

[Matias]

Did SocioPath regurgitate a read from mid Day 1 that is 100% outdated, using it as a vote for early to mid Day 2?

..Socio, do you really have nothing else to say about anyone else?

[Matias]

My read on Haddock/Falcon is straight up null at this point. That argument is completely outdated and it has no relevance for today.

[Matias]

Also, if that has anything to do with my lynching Amrun, remember that my vote on Amrun was not ideal in the slightest. It was just the only one I could compromise on, because like fuck was I going to lynch TSQ.

[Matias]

Posting but this is a prod dodge, im in pittsburg and blahggguh

[Matias]

Unvote

while I sort out the last few pages

I'm back by the way

[Matias]

I'm leaving singer alone due to Nacho's replacement and her backing off of him.

I'm also not sure what the case is against Llamarble. I know this is a short statement, but I really can't comment on anything else except for the Zach vs. Nacho back and forth, in which case I'd need to look at that somewhat closer.

[Matias]

Socio, I'm also not sure why you backed off on your read on me. It feels fake because of that.

[Matias]

Sorry I haven't been around for the record, I haven't been home for a while and I didn't really want to catch up right away on this game.

[Matias]

Waiting for llamarble to answer singers question. Im going to the city today, so I wont be on much. Right now, if its between llamarble and benmage, Im still for a benmage lynch, I dont really have many other suspects at this point, other than socio being weird (Johhog kind of redeemed himself as of late)

[Matias]

CES is a strange kill.

My list of suspects is extremely low. Just Benmage, and that's not even too strong after that flip (purely doubt of my own reads).

I'll wait for everyone to check in I suppose with their reads. I'm lost.

[Matias]

The flip that I'm talking about is Llamarble's, by the way.

[Matias]

Vote: Matias

Llamarble being scum really seals the fate of Matias.
His responses yesterday were also so, so terrible.
Boiled down to 'what I did before is irrelevant and my shit doesn't stink.'
And the even better 'you are calling me scum with this guy other guy but you vote this other guy why no so back off on me.'

I'm still waiting for an answer on that, why did the read on me magically disappear? Your post seemed dead set on me being scum and then, poof.

I'm also confused about how Llamarble being scum seals me being scum. The cases on him were semi-weak and I simply didn't believe he was scum at the time. You're acting like I would be this obvious as scum, and do you really think so?

[Matias]

I'm also sorry I haven't been around a ton. I've been a diablo addict (and I've traveled to three different cities in the past month @_@)

[Matias]

Oh and Matias, now that you're here, who's scum?

I said I wasn't too sure. My read on Benmage weakened after that flip because my read on Llamarble was so cloudy, and people saw something that I didn't.

I honestly think Socio has been putting down easy stance votes. I don't like how he expected his vote on me/Bub to go -anywhere-.

[Matias]

Sorry, hit submit because I just woke up. fweh.

So if anyone, probably him, but my reads have been kind of shit this game.

[Matias]

Sorry, hit submit because I just woke up. fweh.

So if anyone, probably him, but my reads have been kind of shit this game.

Yup.

You're scum.

He makes this comment about Socio's "easy" vote on Bub when Matias had an "easy" vote on SingerSinger.

What did Matias do after easy voting Singer?

He unvoted and then never placed a vote again, after 6 vote counts.

Until Llmarble died.

singer's an easy vote? I remember I had to fight against a ton of people to try to get someone to see on my level, and I've since backed off because she wasn't a viable lynch at the time + she backed off on her read on TSQ/Nacho since his catchup.

[Matias]

I still haven't placed a vote down, by the way.

[Matias]

singer's an easy vote? I remember I had to fight against a ton of people to try to get someone to see on my level, and I've since backed off because she wasn't a viable lynch at the time + she backed off on her read on TSQ/Nacho since his catchup.

Why would her backing off TSQ/Nacho be a reason to think she's less likely scum? (Not being viable certainly isn't a reason for backing off of thinking she is.)

I am interested in particular because that's where her interest is right now.

I realize that she's voted Nacho today.

Remember that my case on her was that she didn't care whether TSQ replaced out or not but she would rather see him hang regardless, which I saw as her attacking the player, not the slot (I didn't believe TSQ's actions meant him being scum). After Nacho replaced and he caught up, she unvoted.

Today, she's voting for a different reason, which I think is completely valid given that Nacho was a big part of Day 2's back and forth. I don't fault her for that.

[Matias]

I'm also not saying she's explicitly town; I'm saying my reads are fucked.

[Matias]

I'm also not saying she's explicitly town; I'm saying my reads are fucked.

Which is not a good excuse to not have any reads now.

My lack of good reads doesn't stem from my prior suspicion of singer o_O

CES was not a strange kill. In fact I would have expected Zach, CES, or Ben to die given the fact that they were all likely to be confirmed town and just another obstacle for scum to overcome/manipulate.

Your statement of waiting for everyone to check in with their reads says to me "Well, I don't really have any good suspects anymore, might as well wait for the next opportunity lynch to present itself"

You're already laying the groundwork for a mislynch on Sociopath as seen in this post below.

I have a few problems with this.

1. First of all, Ben is not even close to being a universal town read, so I think your list of town reads are way off.

2. Your usage of "confirmed" town is kind of troubling.

3. How the hell do you know Socio is town?

For the record, the basis of my weird feelings on him has a lot to do with the fact that he mentioned some interaction that I had with Amrun as the basis on his first vote on me and then never again mentioned it. How can you say that finding that weird is "setting up a mislynch" when you don't even know Socio's alignment in the first place?

[Matias]

No one is "confirmed" town, and not ever. Believing that either means you don't know how White Flag works, or you're scum (because you understand perfectly how terminology like that can affect a game like White Flag with two scum left).

[Matias]

I also failed to touch up on the "waiting for others' reads so I can tag along", which isn't true and is speculation.

My reads so far have been Johhog scum, a weaker Amrun scum, a prior scum read on you, scum read on early Day 2 singer, "I haven't a fucking clue" on Llamarble and "scummy I guess" on Benmage. So far, one was wrong right out, and I didn't have an explicit scum read on Llamarble, which causes me to cast away what I've thought so far and start fresh with whatever information is on the table so far. That doesn't mean that I plan on being on an opportune lynch anytime soon, it means I'm lost.

[Matias]

You didn't really answer anything.

I would like to know how many people thought Ben was town at the

end of Day 2

.

You also disregarded my point about how dangerous that terminology is in White Flag. It's not just an "exaggeration". You can BELIEVE people are town, sure. But "confirmed town" is potentially harmful.

Regardless, thanks for explaining what you were referring to, and I don't see the problem. How is something like that "slightly scummy"? He parked a vote on me for a reason that he never brought up again, then he parked a vote on Bub and then completely disregarded -either- wagon.

For the record: I agree that all of those reads are bad. But especially the one on Amrun. That's why I'm taking a step back and re-evaluating.

In WF, it's worse to have too many strong town reads. Read last year's game for an example.

[Matias]

*he disregarded either wagon, meaning Llamarble's and Benmage's. Did he expect a miraculous Bub or Matias lynch yesterday?

[Matias]

Matias, read on Bub?

Ehhhh.

He started off completely null, started becoming more town by the end of Day 1 and the start of Day 2, but that has tapered off recently. Like null-scumish?

I can say that my scummiest read right now is Socio. I'd say that you, Bub, Ben and Johhog are behind but to a significant degree I guess. Again, though, I have shit reads this game so far, so I'm not putting too much stock into them at the moment.

[Matias]

Why was Amrun's so bad in particular?

He connected you two as teammates and given his self stated meta on Day 1, obviously he was not going to go out of his way to attack you both seeing as it would make him a potential target which to my knowledge is the entire reason he is playing the way he is.

Amrun's is bad because it was simply a matter of "I didn't like this wagon. I'd rather go with this other one because at least I can SEE how she can be scum at this point". It was a terrible read in general.

[Matias]

You still see Johhog and I as possible scum?

;_;

Everyone's "possible" scum. I thought I just finished explaining that.

[Matias]

I posted that first post before Socio voted me. I admit that I overlooked his Bub vote. His vote on me made me look at him.

My mindset at the beginning of the day was focused on the Benmage vs. Llamarble wagons of the day before, where Benmage still didn't look any better (and still doesn't, but now I recognize that Socio placed his vote twice on people who were in no danger of being lynched, so he took the lead).

You should realize that the people who I didn't mention on that list are people who's lynches at this point have completely no merit whatsoever, but could in the future.

I also just got done explaining that "possible scum" means "not confirmed town". ANYONE can be scum, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to actively pursue everyone who I listed.

Preview edit: Why?

[Matias]

Straight up, that kind of thing lost us the game last year. I'm not going to sit here and listen to "Benmage is confirmed town" when the mod didn't fucking confirm it.

[Matias]

Preview edit: Why?

Because you're discussing the definition of the word "confirmed" instead of actually contributing. If you were town you would realise that it's outright anti-town to focus on things like that instead of scum hunting.

Not only that, but you're also using it as a bad excuse to express suspicion of Falcon (As if using confirmed the wrong way would make him scum!).

It's not. I believe I said "either you're scum for using it or you don't understand how White Flag works", the latter being entirely possible.

[Matias]

Preview edit: Why?

Because you're discussing the definition of the word "confirmed" instead of actually contributing. If you were town you would realise that it's outright anti-town to focus on things like that instead of scum hunting.

Not only that, but you're also using it as a bad excuse to express suspicion of Falcon (As if using confirmed the wrong way would make him scum!).

It's not. I believe I said "either you're scum for using it or you don't understand how White Flag works", the latter being entirely possible.

Don't go around nitpicking on your own word choices. I'm absolutely, 100% sure that you don't actually think that Falcon doesn't understand the setup. Do you really think that a player as experienced as him wouldn't read the setup?

And this reads to me like you being sarcastic and now you're pretending that you were serious.

I've been serious the whole time.

You can sit there and be like "Oh, white flag. Once you lynch two scum, you win. Cool, I understand it", but when mith voted Llamarble last year, everyone went around saying that they couldn't be connected and I doubt a single townie understood the intricacies of how this setup works. I was the same way. Shit like that can be harmful, because it is

how we lost last year

.

[Matias]

wat

That's exactly what I'm trying to explain. Because of that, you can't go around using terminology like "confirmed".

People can be lemmings, and they can bite on terminology like that and use it as their reads. That's potentially harmful.

[Matias]

This confirmed townie thing is annoying because it already gets used way more often than it actually applies in non mountainous setups as it is. But this discussion isn't going to help us find scum either... so...

Right, I agree. I'm defending my position, is all.

I'm waiting on Socio to come back.

[Matias]

Matias, we get it. Nobody alive is confirmed town. Now stop with the bullshit semantics and tell us strait up: do you think benmage is town or scum?

I don't like how Matias ducked and dodged around people asking him his reads by saying "hey, nobody's

technically

confirmed." Personally, I think Llamarble's vote on Benmage makes it unlikely that benmage is scum. With that, we have the remaining playerlist:

Falcon
Bub
Singer
Benmage
Zach
Johhog
Nacho
Socio
Matias

Falcon is town in my eyes. Singer also looks town. Her constant push on TSQ/nacho reads as genuine to me. Earlier I did think Johhog was scum, but I changed my mind when I looked at his iso and saw that he had some reads and pushed them with what I found to be valid logic. Benmage is likely town as I've already stated, and I'm town because of my role PM. That leaves:

Zach
Socio
Matias
Nacho

That is an acceptable lynch pool, I think.

Obviously Johhog doesn't. It's not fair that you're saying that it's "bullshit semantics" when I'm defending myself. I wouldn't even be fucking talking about it if Johhog didn't try to make a fucking mountain out of a molehill.

Not all reads are town or scum. Benmage is someone who I'd be okay with a lynch on. Moreso than the other 3 I listed, but I'm looking at Socio.

But this is wrong.
Because both were alive.
Connecting alive scum to alive scum means nothing when one of them dying means the game is over.

I'm not explaining this because I feel like I've already said my peace on it.

Why is that?

Because it shows that you don't care about who gets lynched? You hardly even pushed the both of us.

[Matias]

And yeah, my gut tells me that Matias is a bad lynch.

This.

Only he's dead wrong on SP.

How?

[Matias]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

[Matias]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

Wow, that was a lazy vote.

vote: matias

Because of this, I can definitely see a nacho/matias scumteam now. Matias is avoiding mentioning nacho and voting the next most viable wagon.

Actually, I've said probably the most about TSQ/Nacho's slot out of anyone this whole entire game, if you were paying attention.

[Matias]

I also wonder whether you would have called it a "lazy vote" had singer not done so, which I disagree entirely, but whatever.

[Matias]

Here's the deal. I don't have Nacho on my list of scum, at all (however bad my read list may be). He never got any scummier since TSQ replaced out and he caught up. So, obviously I'm not going to vote him. I have no reason to.

You want to lynch him? Be my guest, but I'll be no part of it. I honestly think Socio coasted late Day 2 and that's all I have to say about that.

[Matias]

Here's the deal. I don't have Nacho on my list of scum, at all (however bad my read list may be). He never got any scummier since TSQ replaced out and he caught up. So, obviously I'm not going to vote him. I have no reason to.

You want to lynch him? Be my guest, but I'll be no part of it. I honestly think Socio coasted late Day 2 and that's all I have to say about that.

Do you think his wagon is scum driven?

No.

[Matias]

Explain the Socio and Nacho connection, unless I'm an idiot and missed it.

[Matias]

He actually explained that to Zach, though.

[Matias]

It looks to me like he had a bigger fixation on Zach. First thing he does Day 3 is vote Socio.

It's actually weirder to me that he's not pushing Zach more.

[Matias]

Bub/Nacho though, maybe.

[Matias]

Also, looking over everything, I think I'm ready to do this:

Vote: Socio

Looking over everything, this makes me happy.

You're being so useful! What a unique statement to make.

[Matias]

If anyone's hammering Nacho, it's bub or bub alone. I'd much rather a Socio lynch, but if this is happening, go for it.

Bub/Nacho is what I'm most worried about and is the only thing I see if anything at all including Nacho.

[Matias]

Sorry, not happening.

My logic is that if he's scum, the game will end and that's fantastic. I just think Socio is much scummier. It's not to stall the game, it goes against what I believe.

[Matias]

Bub, where's that hammer, bro?

[Matias]

If anyone's hammering Nacho, it's bub or bub alone. I'd much rather a Socio lynch, but if this is happening, go for it.

Bub/Nacho is what I'm most worried about and is the only thing I see if anything at all including Nacho.

^

I'm not being a stubborn dipshit, I think he's not scum.

If I hammer him and he flips town, next thing you know, you'll have fucking Captain Falcon and Johhog picking that shit apart baselessly. I want Bub to do it. His stalling is making me angry.

[Matias]

Because if Nacho is scum at all, that's ALL I see.

But whatever. If they don't listen to 1280, then I'll be fucking pissed.

Unvote, Vote: Nacho

If the game doesn't end, fucking lynch Socio for the love of god.