Mini 1349: Words with Scum (Game over!)

[whispersilk]

I’d like Hoopla specifically (and everyone if they please) to weigh in on the following topic –

Should Town pick letters without turning?

I don't think so. Yes, giving scum opportunities to snatch the letters they want is not ideal, but by not turning at least a few letters over, we'd be leaving the towns ability to use a good number of power roles almost entirely to chance.

[whispersilk]

@MoI Yeah, I could see some instances where it would be problematic for someone to take a certain tile.

For example if someone took three tiles in the first three days that added up to a cop ability.

Seeing as we've all been given 2 letters already, I doubt anyone would have to wait 3 days before gaining an ability. Despite the randomness, the fact that some power roles only require 2 letters, means there is a fair chance that someone has ended up with an ability before the game started. Also, everyone is going to be watching who takes which upturned letters.

[whispersilk]

VOTE: DCLXVI
for not remembering that he played with me before.

Also, I think it would be wise for town to pick without flipping. If they are flipped first, it might seem obvious that someone gained a PR based on the tiles they collected, and scum would probably kill them.

This is true, but scum have one kill a night (barring other gained abilities), so they couldn't take out every town power role each night. I think getting town to pick up the maximum # of abilities each night would be the best thing.

[whispersilk]

Vote:whispersilk

chiming in, but not voting

As for the tiles, we have another question.
When tiles are flipped, we think that whoever flipped the tile should have first shot at collecting it. That's our input.

I'm not much in favour of random voting, especially when discussion is going the way it is. I'll vote as soon as someone gives me a real reason to.

If I understand the rules correctly, I think anyone is free to pick any of the tiles at any time.

[whispersilk]

Whisper

– please link me to your last completed Scum and Town games please.

Sure, but I'm not sure how much good it will do. I haven't played a game in since last year, and I think my last 5 or so games were mostly lost when the site went down. Most of them don't go further than about 6 pages.

I think this was my last completed town game, and I think that Redemption large themed game that we both subbed into as scum was my last completed scum game, but I can't find it.

[whispersilk]

I want to suggest a rule.

All players should flip and collect the same tile in the same post.

I.E, If you want to flip tile E2, you must collect E2 in that same post.

Further, I want to lay down a policy of not collecting unflipped tiles.

Basically, my reasoning is that I don't want people collecting unknown letters. That will ensure people are locked down into claims later, AND let us track the scum fucking up our Night Actions etc.

The other reason for flipping+taking at the same time is so that scum cannot co-ordinate their letter taking. With 9 town to 3 scum, if people are taking letters without looking at them, there is a higher chance town will develop more usable abilities.

So basically:

1) You may not take an unflipped tile
2) You may not take a tile you have not flipped.
3) You must take a tile in the same post you flip it in.

Comments? Questions? Concerns?

While I agree with some of your reasoning, I don't agree with your methods. If there is going to be a set of guidelines that we all follow, then everyone has to be in agreement before we move forward. You can't just demand that everyone follow your rules without clearly outlining what everyone has to do going into night 1, and what your plan is ultimately going to achieve, and even then, we all should have a chance to talk it out, fix any flaws before people start flipping tiles. The fact that you suggested a plan is not bad, the plan itself is poorly thought out and I don't see how it's going to help the town. If structuring a plan for the tiles is the way to go (and I think it is), there could be a better way of doing so.

Before

anyone else flips/takes a tile, I'd like to hear thoughts on a potential tile massclaim and then following the tiles being flipped, we all decide who ends up with which roles, thus locking as many players as possible into a position where they cannot make a fake claim the next day. This would mean scum would be taking a huge risk if they lied about which tiles they already have. We could set it up the roles to either back up other peoples claims, or expose them as scum. Yes, this leaves scum open to knowing who has which role, but barring other abilities, they can still only kill one player at night, which they would be doing anyway. It seems to me that control is the name of the game, and the more control and knowledge the town have from the start, the more chance we have of making the best use of the available abilities, and limiting scum.

I don't support the idea of flipping and taking the same tile.

[whispersilk]

The point is scum will see what town has. Townpoints for not realising this though.

Of course I realised that. Who wouldn't?

[whispersilk]

Massclaiming and/or only collecting exposed tiles turns the game into more of a logic puzzle. I don't think the benefits are substantial enough to make the game boring.

Fair enough.

I don't agree with this. Whispersilk has games as town that parallel his opening play so far - I remember when Mayo Clinic was an open setup, he dedicated a lot of time to structuring a winning strategy for town. I think he likes the logic puzzle aspect of the game, so I don't really think "scum trying to appear townish" is accurate. I've also seen him powerlurk quite heavily as scum, and although it's too early to tell in this game, I'm not worried.

Please re-read her ISO. Her posts have nothing to do with logic puzzling.

One of my posts does, and other than our mod (who played Mayo 2), Hoopla was probably going to be the only other person to see exactly where I was going with it, because I believe she was one of the people who altered the Mayo setup after I broke it with a winning plan, and then I think decided to scrap it completely when I promptly broke the new setup with another plan. The plans were based on massclaiming and following strict night actions which forced scum and a SK to do what the town said, and we then used logic and deduction to catch them in two stunning, but somewhat boring victories.

I wasn't really expecting a thumbs up from everyone, because it's natural to be all like "whoa there" when faced with an idea that on the surface appears completely crazy, but sometimes I see potential flaws in a setup, and a part of me naturally wants to exploit them, even if it makes the game boring. I think this setup can be exploited to benefit the town, but as things have progressed this far, my idea is now moot and probably best saved for theory discussions.

That said,

Flip G2

[whispersilk]

I think the case on Arugula is based on the fact he posted a plan that was similar, but not identical, to one already proposed (apparently for town cred), while expecting to get criticised, and his subsequent reactions to the comments that followed. I think the more he tries to defend himself, the worse he makes himself look. I'm not buying it, mainly because I think his actions are a null tell, and apart from Amrun, who I have a town read on, the other 3 on his wagon are null reads for me at best.

[whispersilk]

VOTE: whispersilk

"null at best" implies one or more of the three on the wagon other than amrun is a scumread of yours. Yet you have no vote placed. Stop posturing and keeping your options open, scumbag.

I will place my vote when I've decided who I think is most likely to be scum. I was stating why I don't agree with the people that think Arugula is scum, and that I don't have town reads on 3/4 of his wagon. Since when is that scummy?

Where am I trying to mislead or impress anyone?

[whispersilk]

Whispersilk is scummy. I'm not sure your 'slip' is any actually a slip. Null at best means just that - his behavior isn't necessarily a slam dunk. My issue is the fact that Whisper doesn't have any significant Scum-reads that I can see and

doesn't seem to find issue with any of the non-Hoopla players on Arugula's wagon

despite her thoughts that Arugula's behavior is not directly scummy.

What does this mean?

[whispersilk]

@Whisper, "null at best" suggests you have a scumread -- it's not saying you don't have a townread. If you said "the rest are nullreads" I'd have had no problem with it.

So you're voting for me because I said that 3/4 of Arugula's wagon is either a null or scum read, including yourself?

Where am I trying to mislead or impress anyone?

Can you please answer this.

[whispersilk]

@Iceguy:

Please give your reasons for jumping on my baseless wagon.

[whispersilk]

@Iceguy:

So if you think it's not baseless, please state your exact reasons for voting me.

[whispersilk]

I will place my vote when I've decided who I think is most likely to be scum.

I’ve seen you float this exact reasoning when scum. Discuss why I should not vote you for this statement given that fact.

Because it's actually how I usually go about voting. I don't believe much in RVS, and as town I have previously gone an entire game day without placing a real vote. So I'd say your reasoning = null, and why would you vote for that when you've already pointed out players that are genuinely scummy?

I thought it was pretty straightforward. I’m saying your behavior regarding the Arugula wagon doesn’t look Town.

You are stating he’s being voted when his behavior is Null. Yet you don’t find anyone on his wagon scummy at all … everyone but Hoopla is “Null at best”. If he’s a sizeable bad wagon odds are at least one scum is on there. Yet you aren't willing to commit specifically to who in the 3 actually are scum.

I think you should read what I said again. I never mentioned Hoopla. It was Amrun that I said I had a town read on. As for the other 3, "null

at best

" means exactly that.

Who is the Null and who is the Scum of those 3 players then? You did a bang-up job of dodging actually committing to a position aside from Hoopla.

You mean Amrun. Calling 3 players either null or scum reads is not dodging anything. The reason I haven't voted any of them yet is because I haven't decided which one I find scummiest, and I certainly won't vote someone blindly and before at least giving them an opportunity to respond to some kind of a case, which unfortunately can be said of the people voting for me. We are only 72 hours into day 1, and there has not been much scumhunting - other than fighting over which plan should be followed.

[whispersilk]

@IceGuy:

Seeing as you haven't responded to my question directly, I'll quote your response to MoI.

I had already posted why I find her suspicious. I'm willing to vote both whispersilk and Hoopla; whispersilk had the larger wagon so I was voting her. Simple as that.

You mention me only twice (and never directly) before voting for me, the first time in response to MoI:

Had Whisper down as town, but on re-read I've noticed that most of her posts are generalities and repetitions, which moves her into the "scum trying to appear townish" category.

I fail to see where my posts (6 at the time) fall into either category. 1 was in reply to a vote on me, another linking games for MoI, and another in response to MoI's question he posed to everyone at the start of the game. So that leaves 3 posts that you could be referring to. Can you point out exactly where those 3 posts were generalities or repetitious so I may at least have an opportunity to defend myself?

I don't agree with this. Whispersilk has games as town that parallel his opening play so far - I remember when Mayo Clinic was an open setup, he dedicated a lot of time to structuring a winning strategy for town. I think he likes the logic puzzle aspect of the game, so I don't really think "scum trying to appear townish" is accurate. I've also seen him powerlurk quite heavily as scum, and although it's too early to tell in this game, I'm not worried.

Please re-read her ISO. Her posts have nothing to do with logic puzzling.

I responded directly to you regarding this right here, but you either didn't read it, or you couldn't be bothered to respond. Either way, the lack of response suggests that it wasn't important enough to you to open a discussion with me. What is scummy is that you're now suddenly claiming these two posts are your sole reasons for hopping on my wagon when you did, that and the fact my wagon is bigger than Hoopla's, you know, Hoopla the other player you'd be happy to vote for, and the player you've actually taken the time to address and respond to. If I'm the better vote, why have you not bothered to even ask me a single question regarding your suspicions of me?

[whispersilk]

The fact I'm one of them doesn't matter. I'm voting you because you said that 3/4 of Arugula's wagon is either a null or scum read but you are currently not voting anyone. You claim to be looking to decide which one is scummiest but afaict you have made no moves to figure out which one that might be.

Up till recently you were the frontrunner because of your comment directed at me, the one I asked you about here. If you had replied to me, you would have found out that I thought you scummy for giving me townpoints for

not

realising something that even an idiot would realise, but you didn't, and the next time you addressed me was when you voted me. So yes, I did make a move. You were my voting preference, but I wanted to hear what you had to say before laying a vote on you. I now find IceGuy equally if not more scummy, but I'm waiting for answers from him before voting either of you.

[whispersilk]

I don't think so. Yes, giving scum opportunities to snatch the letters they want is not ideal, but by not turning at least a few letters over, we'd be leaving the towns ability to use a good number of power roles almost entirely to chance.

Generality, i.e. everybody looking at the setup can figure that out immediately.

That was in response to a question that MoI asked everyone. Did you expect me not to answer just because the answer should have been obvious?

Seeing as we've all been given 2 letters already, I doubt anyone would have to wait 3 days before gaining an ability. Despite the randomness, the fact that some power roles only require 2 letters, means there is a fair chance that someone has ended up with an ability before the game started. Also, everyone is going to be watching who takes which upturned letters.

Same.

Which part?

Again, it was in response to DCLXVI, because I wanted him to understand the flaw in his statement. What is scummy about that?

This is true, but scum have one kill a night (barring other gained abilities), so they couldn't take out every town power role each night. I think getting town to pick up the maximum # of abilities each night would be the best thing.

First sentence: As before. Last sentence: That's even more trivial. You don't even need to look at the setup to say "the more PRs town has, the better it is for town".

Did you call out the other 2 people that said the exact same thing on the very first page

after

I made my post for stating the obvious and being repetative?

Again, that was in response to someone, and not a random post made to keep up appearances.

I'm not much in favour of random voting, especially when discussion is going the way it is. I'll vote as soon as someone gives me a real reason to.

If I understand the rules correctly, I think anyone is free to pick any of the tiles at any time.

The first part is a statement that's actually insightful, but still not really useful. Second part is again a trivial observation.

The first part was in response to the person that voted for me. So how is it not beneficial for me to give my reasons? The second part was a response to a question put forth by the same person in the same post. How is pointing out a rule to someone who wanted to limit people's choice of tile in a way that could greatly benefit scum a bad thing?

Since it should now be clear what I mean, I'm going to stop here with the quotes. Read ISO for context.

The only thing that is clear is that your reason for voting for me is non-existant and ergo scummy.

ISO #5: You attack LLD after everybody has attacked her with an insanely tl;dr post, recapping all of our arguments and not adding anything from your own.

My post directed at LLD was in no way an attack and was hardly too long. I just stated my thoughts politely, and in fact I agreed with aspects of her reasoning while disagreeing with her methods. I also shared my thoughts on how she should have presented her plan differently, instead of trying to force people into following. Can you be a little less vague with your accusation and specify where I am "re-capping" everyone else's arguments with the quotes to prove it? Thanks.

Also, the way you accuse me of "recapping all of our arguments and not adding anything from your own" made me ISO you again to read up your own personal arguments made against LLD and her plan. I think it's pretty hardcore scummy to accuse me of something that I am not guilty of, but something that you are! This is

your only

argument against or comment on LLD and her plan:

I agree with Hoopla regarding LLD.

VOTE: IceGuy

ISO #7: Against my accusation you weren't logic puzzling in this game, you defend by saying you did in another game and a general diatribe on logic puzzling.

My plan was

based on using logic and deduction to catch scum

, and yet you still don't understand that despite what Hoopla said and my full explanation in the post you're referring to.

ISO #8 contains the first semblance of your own opinion, but you only have a bunch of null reads and a townread on Amrun who hasn't actually contributed enough to be read because of her V/LA.

No, I said null at best when referring to 3 people. That means at least one of them was a scum read.

Logic puzzling is not re-phrasing the role PMs or the public information. Logic puzzling is also not going through what other players have said before you and restate it.

What part of Hoopla's post do you not understand? She was obviously referring to my plan and not every single post I had made up till that point, and she was the one that called it "logic puzzling", not me.

You haven't formed a single non-null read that's somehow grounded in fact. You haven't even really taken part in the plans discussion after saying LLD's plan was bad when everybody else was already saying it.

Really? I think I've refuted the latter part of your post. I put forth my own plan for debate and didn't get much response. I've stated that I have a town read on Amrun, and null-scum reads on the other 3 on Arugulas wagon. When I have firm reads on everyone else, I'll post them. Where are your reads on everyone?

I still have no idea what plan you want to follow or who you think is town and scum.

I don't want to follow any plan, because it's too late to do so for any of them. Who is "following" your plan? It seems to me that most people are doing whatever they want, if they haven't semi-followed another plan already and messed up any chance of following yours successfully. I'm not getting involved in useless debates about plans that cannot work at this point.

EBWOP: Okay, a new post came in while I was writing this, in which you consider the people attacking you "scummy". Those reads are approximately as honest as the one on Amrun.

Fabricating reasons as you are is hardly town.

[whispersilk]

Because it's actually how I usually go about voting. I don't believe much in RVS, and as town I have previously gone an entire game day without placing a real vote. So I'd say your reasoning = null, and why would you vote for that when you've already pointed out players that are genuinely scummy?

So you have a behavior with no Pro-Town motivation and have displayed said behavior as scum before but it should be Null? Nope.jpg.

I have displayed it as town before. Seriously, if you're going to rely on my meta (as you always do) to attack me, then just my posting style and level of participation thus far should be enough to make you question your scum read on me.

You mean Amrun. Calling 3 players either null or scum reads is not dodging anything. The reason I haven't voted any of them yet is because I haven't decided which one I find scummiest, and I certainly won't vote someone blindly and before at least giving them an opportunity to respond to some kind of a case, which unfortunately can be said of the people voting for me. We are only 72 hours into day 1, and there has not been much scumhunting - other than fighting over which plan should be followed.

So once again – you call three players either Null or scum and hold off on actually making any sort of commitment to who is scummy and why. Scum can and do get caught and hung within 7 pages in Mini Theme games. Pretending you can't scum-hunt early is a fallacy.

I'm not pretending anything. I've not mentioned scumhunting. Your issue with me is the fact I didn't vote, and I stated that I was going to vote once I'd decided who was most scummiest. And I have.

[whispersilk]

My plan was

based on using logic and deduction to catch scum

, and yet you still don't understand that despite what Hoopla said and my full explanation in the post you're referring to.

What plan? You never posted a plan.

OMFG.

/facepalm

No, I said null at best when referring to 3 people. That means at least one of them was a scum read.

That's a creative interpretation. Still a cop-out, though.

Also, the point is not how many other people did whatever you did. The point is that you did almost nothing but.

The fact that you suddenly discover I'm scummy based on a post from a few pages ago just when I start to attack you doesn't help your case, really.

A cop out? You're joking, right? You've just ignored every single question I asked you, while hanging on for dear life to your lame attacks, You've completely failed to even

read the posts of mine that you are attacking

.

[whispersilk]

@Robocopter
I just forgot to unvote.
UNVOTE: Voidedmafia
Although it is strange that you are pointing that out and not Voided.

You need to rethink that stance. I don’t find Hoopla scummy.

Why is your vote idle if you find Hoopla objectionable?

Because I don't consider her scummy enough to want her lynched (especially as her towniness has been increasing with every subsequent post). I just don't want to give her a powerful letter at this point.

What happened to this? I thought Hoopla was getting more and more town, and not scummy enough for a lynch. What did Hoopla do between that post and now that made her lynch-worthy?

Also, Amrun has posted plenty to get a read on her. I personally think she is town, so most of your whispersilk case is false.

VOTE: IceGuy
And to everyone else,
Hoopla is not on my wagon. Whispersilk's 3 null reads are on the people on my wagon besides Amrun, not Hoopla.

Thanks for bringing this up. I noticed it in his ISO, and forgot to put it in my wall.

[whispersilk]

Did you actually read her posts? Or did you just make something up out of thin air so you could vote me?

Oh, the irony.

OMFG.

/facepalm

Link. Quote. Now.

I don't respond well to blatant rudeness, especially coming from someone who apparently ISO'd me for his case. Open your eyes and try reading for real this time. I'm not doing your leg work on a case against myself.

A cop out? You're joking, right? You've just ignored every single question I asked you, while hanging on for dear life to your lame attacks, You've completely failed to even

read the posts of mine that you are attacking

.

Good to know you don't have anything to say against my case. Otherwise you would instead of resorting to this.

Nothing to say against your case?

Where is the headbanging smilie?

I just spent an hour refuting every single aspect of your ridiculous case on me point by point. Are you fucking stoned?

Here is the link in case you missed it.

LINK

[whispersilk]

If I would have seen a plan, I wouldn't have asked you. It's just not there.

Weird that Hoopla saw it tho, huh?

All that stuff is irrelevant. I wasn't criticizing for doing that, I was criticizing you not doing anything but that.

Again: irrelevant. LLD's plan was already dead; no point in writing paragraphs about it.

Irrelevant. Not my point.

See above.

I don't want to follow any plan, because it's too late to do so for any of them. Who is "following" your plan? It seems to me that most people are doing whatever they want, if they haven't semi-followed another plan already and messed up any chance of following yours successfully. I'm not getting involved in useless debates about plans that cannot work at this point.

Again, a cop-out. I ask you for the plan you posted, you reply with fluff.

You didn't even know I had a 'effing plan until I wrote my rebuttal. Why? BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T BOTHER TO READ MY POSTS. This coming from someone using my posts against me is laughable.

Accusing me multiple times of various things to make me look bad, then shrugging those accusations off like they meant nothing after I've rebutted every single one is a joke.

Your main reason for voting for me was that my 6 posts at the very beginning of the game were generalities and repetitive. Now you're claiming it's because that is all I posted. That simply doesn't stand up when taken in context. Tell me, how long had the game been running, and how many posts had you made at the point you first criticised me?

[whispersilk]

YOU ISO'd me. You claim that all I posted was fluff and whatever. You're the one using my posts against me. You're the one refusing to answer my rebuttal against you. Why don't you read my posts again?

I can't decide if you're scum or just the VI.

btw, MoI read my plan too. I know this cuz he voted me for it.

[whispersilk]

Oh, and in the post above, the quote attributed to Amrun is one from whispersilk.

You know, just in case somebody calls me scum for "misappropriating a quote".

No, it was actually said by Voided.

You should've gone to specsavers.

[whispersilk]

More than half of us have already collected tiles. What would be the point in popcorning now?

Which 3 wagons do you think are decent?

[whispersilk]

In the future.

How would this benefit the town?

Ah I was reading on my phone and thought Hoopla was on 3 votes, not ICEguy. Not sure about his wagon. Yours and Argu's are decent (good), his is decent (sized) though.

In what way is my wagon good?

What do you think of the other two people voting for me, ie what are your reads on them?

[whispersilk]

Where am I trying to mislead or impress anyone?

Can you please answer this.

@AurorusVox:

You said I was posturing, and I've asked you twice to point out where I've done that. You've ignored me twice. Can you please answer me now?

[whispersilk]

Your wagon is good because you're scum.

Other than your sole reason for voting me, why else am I scum?

Popcorning is a way of controlling the picking process without making it too beuracratic.

I know what popcorning is. I was asking how you think the process is going to benefit the town? Other than not being too beuracratic, what other real benefits are there for the town?

And you were posturing by claiming people to be "at best null" but not following it up with a vote OR calling anyone scummy. That's pretty obvious considering it's the post I voted you for.

Do you know what posturing means?

The post you voted me for contained reads on 4 people, including yourself. You're right, I didn't specify which of the three on Arugula's wagon I found null or scummy, but at least I gave my reads at the time on 4 people, and then followed that post up stating I would vote when I'd decided who I found scummiest. I also stated here, a few posts before that I was not in favour of RVS voting and I would vote when someone gave me a reason to, so I don't understand why this is such an issue for you, and enough to vote me over other players that have shown real scummy behaviour.

Other than calling me scum, can you point out where you've given your own town and scum reads?

Also, can you answer the part of my previous post that you've not answered. Thanks.

[whispersilk]

No I can't because you're scum and this administration does not negotiate with terrorists.

Ok, you think I'm scum. I get it. How does refusing to give your reads on the two other players voting me benefit anyone, especially the rest of the town?

Your refusal to give reads on two players is far scummier than anything I've done or not done. You've also chosen not to answer two other questions in my post. What are your reasons for not telling me and everyone else exactly how your idea of popcorning the tiles will benefit the town? It's your idea, and not responding makes no sense.

Who do you THINK my scum reads are, bub?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking, and I'm asking about all your reads, not just scum ones. I can't see any reads in your ISO, just the two instances where you sheeped the Hoopla and Arugula wagons, before starting mine, and yes, you've called me scum. If I've missed them, then I apologise and I ask that you please point them out.

[whispersilk]

Hey IceGuy, all these accusations you've slung at me, you should have no problem backing them up with evidence.

So, please show me and the rest of the town where I copied from other players, with regards to my comments to LLD and with regards to my plan.

You've basically refused to answer or ignored every question I've asked you while defending myself. The least you can do is back up your claims.

[whispersilk]

Let's see:

While I agree with some of your reasoning, I don't agree with your methods. If there is going to be a set of guidelines that we all follow, then everyone has to be in agreement before we move forward. You can't just demand that everyone follow your rules without clearly outlining what everyone has to do going into night 1, and what your plan is ultimately going to achieve, and even then, we all should have a chance to talk it out, fix any flaws before people start flipping tiles.

Obvious and irrelevant stuff, i.e. fluff.

I disagree. I have some experience of presenting plans to a town, and convincing them to follow it. My comments were meant to be helpful and show LLD where she went wrong in that regard, and as far as I can see, no one else had said anything similar. There is no way you can justify calling my comments fluff.

The fact that you suggested a plan is not bad, the plan itself is poorly thought out and I don't see how it's going to help the town. If structuring a plan for the tiles is the way to go (and I think it is), there could be a better way of doing so.

#34, #35, #39, #42, #43, #45, #48, #49, #53 all criticize LLD. Actually, most of the posts in-between are from LLD herself. You could just have gone the route I did, saying "I agree with whomever regarding LLD's plan". You know, the towny thing to do.

I didn't repeat anything said in any of those posts (apart from saying it was poorly thought out which was vaguely similar to something MoI said). And I didn't go the route you did, because I didn't agree with everything that everyone else was slinging at her, in fact, I said that I agreed with some of her reasoning, and the rest of what I said was criticising the way she presented her plan and pushed it on the town. The latter part of it was an introduction into presenting my own plan. So show me exactly which parts of what I said had already been said.

Before

anyone else flips/takes a tile, I'd like to hear thoughts on a potential tile massclaim and then following the tiles being flipped, we all decide who ends up with which roles, thus locking as many players as possible into a position where they cannot make a fake claim the next day. This would mean scum would be taking a huge risk if they lied about which tiles they already have. We could set it up the roles to either back up other peoples claims, or expose them as scum. Yes, this leaves scum open to knowing who has which role, but barring other abilities, they can still only kill one player at night, which they would be doing anyway. It seems to me that control is the name of the game, and the more control and knowledge the town have from the start, the more chance we have of making the best use of the available abilities, and limiting scum.

I had already expounded my plan for town-controlled letter taking in #53.

The difference between my plan and your plan is the "fullclaim" part, which is impossible to verify because contrary to what you said, most powers aren't confirmable.

My plan in no way resembles yours, and to suggest otherwise now when no one, including yourself, accused me of copying it at the time the way everyone jumped on Arugula (who actually did), is ridiculous and scummy.

[whispersilk]

@vijay2vasandani:

I see your vote has been on Hoop since your first post in the game. I'd really appreciate your thoughts on exactly what makes her scum, especially why you favour her over the other 3 leading wagons, my own included. And any other reads you have would be awesome too. Thanks.

[whispersilk]

@Voidedmafia:

What kind of reads do you have on AurorusVox and DCLXVI?

[whispersilk]

Collect: D2

[whispersilk]

@2minds:

Your one and only effort at scumhunting, particularly trying to justify your vote on me is poorly thought out.

Confirm vote on whisper

Before

anyone else flips/takes a tile, I'd like to hear thoughts on a potential tile massclaim and then following the tiles being flipped, we all decide who ends up with which roles, thus locking as many players as possible into a position where they cannot make a fake claim the next day. This would mean scum would be taking a huge risk if they lied about which tiles they already have. We could set it up the roles to either back up other peoples claims, or expose them as scum. Yes, this leaves scum open to knowing who has which role, but barring other abilities, they can still only kill one player at night, which they would be doing anyway. It seems to me that control is the name of the game, and the more control and knowledge the town have from the start, the more chance we have of making the best use of the available abilities, and limiting scum.

Already been mentioned, but needs to mentioned again. The massclaim idea is a bad idea this early in the game. Even later in the game, mass claiming would be bad since the letters left over would be so few that any combinations will likely be easy to figure out, just by the letter being taken. Also, scum wouldn't be able to lie since its a vanilla based set-up and by going back and searching for what tiles they have collected, it would be easy to figure out which roles they could have had.

Just like IceGuy, you seem either incapable of understanding what you are reading, or just simply failing to be bothered to read properly. If you don't like my idea, that's fine. I put it out there so I could get everyone's opinion. But what you've just said proves that you don't even understand what my idea was. My plan was to have everyone claim the tiles they already had, then flipping all the tiles we could, then setting up the roles for as many people as was possible so that we locked people into claims and roles that could be proven. One half of you has played in a Mayo Clinic with me, so my idea of massclaiming and using night actions to catch scum should not be new to you. So other than the part where you say a massclaim is a bad idea, everything else makes no sense as an attack on me, or proof that I am scum, because your statements have very little to do with the idea I suggested. I didn't suggest a late game massclaim. I suggested a massclaim right there and then, and even asked that my idea be discussed before anyone else took a tile. All you've done it take MoI's reason for voting me a while back, and recycle it as justification for what exactly? Keeping your vote on me... or the basis of your case on me?

The point is scum will see what town has. Townpoints for not realising this though.

Of course I realised that. Who wouldn't?

Looking for confirmation of town-cred

This is just complete rubbish. How could you construe that as me trying to get a confirmation of town-cred, when the very post indicates that I think it's weird that Vox is giving me town cred in the first place because it's something that everyone should have been able to see.

You did a piss poor job of reading my posts properly, because if you had, you would have seen this post:

Up till recently you (Vox) were the frontrunner because of your comment directed at me, the one I asked you about here. If you had replied to me, you would have found out that I thought you scummy for giving me townpoints for

not

realising something that even an idiot would realise, but you didn't, and the next time you addressed me was when you voted me. So yes, I did make a move. You were my voting preference, but I wanted to hear what you had to say before laying a vote on you. I now find IceGuy equally if not more scummy, but I'm waiting for answers from him before voting either of you.

So your insinuation that I was trying to grab double town points from someone I found scummy for giving them in the first place is just complete fail as an attack on me, and goes to show that you've put very little effort into making any kind of real case against me, or even reading my posts properly, and is a blatant misrep.

The whole debate with IceGuy seems justified, and if it weren't for the team tells we found, we might think whisper was town.

I seriously doubt that you've bothered to read any of my discussions with IG, because if you had, you would be unvoting me and voting him. His actions so far in the game have been terrible, and not only with regards to me.

As for interaction, I've interacted far less with many other players, yourself included. Asking people for reads is not scummy, especially when I'm asking someone who had has their vote stuck on the same person since the start of the game and has not jumped on any of the other 3 wagons, my own included. Did the fact that I think vijay could be scum distancing/avoiding my wagon ever occur to you? Probably not. I've also asked at least two other people for their reads on the people on my wagon and other players in general, including Voided, and in his case, me asking him for his reads was the first time I'd said anything to him all game. Linking me and vijay based on what you've presented is just fluff. There are no team tells.

Now that you've actually started participating in the game, some real scum hunting and cases that make sense would be nice.

[whispersilk]

You make a nice case. Well, case that recaps on all the other cases but you linked them together. However, I would like to ask, if you think that out of those three that if it wasn't for those three, you would think Whisper is town. Why did you want Whisper to be the first one to go?

That's a really good point. I'd like to know why too.

[whispersilk]

Whispersilk: Do you have an S?

What is your town motivation for asking me this, considering you seem quite certain that I am town?

Also, Town for AV and null/leaning scum for DCL. If you want reasons just ask.

I'd appreciate a breakdown of your town read on AV, thanks.

[whispersilk]

I was initially liking the prospect of IceGuy scum, but I always tend to second guess players who adopt the abrasive, no-nonsense approach in their posts - increasingly I've noticed these sorts of players are town and when scum take on a more rounded tone. IceGuy is capable of being a level above and playing this way as scum too to attract town points (it obviously hasn't worked this game if this is the case), but I suspect the wagon on him is bogus and taking advantage of the tone he has adopted.

I'm starting to have second doubts about IG, mainly because I don't think scum would be so blatantly stubborn and stupid, or try to push a wagon on town using such a poorly thought out bad case, and then ignore the responses to it. But I started off convinced he is scum, and I hate second guessing myself. It just drives me round in circles. What also worries me is the others that jumped on his wagon, and the fact he did come up with a plan to guide the town.

Coincidentally, you, Voided and Amrun make up the back end of the wagon, which roughly syncs with where I think a higher spread of scum are. I don't have any evidence against you (

Magna

) other than gut - I feel like you're just trying to say the right things, and leaving it there, rather than going beyond the surface. Players like you are very hard to read - if anything, the reason why I'm suspicious of you is because I have a lot of other town reads, but not one on you.

I have a null read on MoI. Part of me really wants to believe he is town, because for once, he is not pushing my lynch using meta as a reason. But then the other part of me thinks that he could be scum being careful not to do so, because in a previous game as scum, he tried to get me lynched on day 1 by telling everyone I was a lurker that played poorly. So they kind of cancel each other out. I have to say tho, that he is playing more like he did as town in Secret Society Mafia where I was scum, and less like he did in my one experience of him as scum.

2minds1soul's latest posts have been okay - be wary of them though, as Guy_Named_Riggs is a chronic lurker as scum, so I don't want to give them too much leeway.

I don't understand how you think his latest posts have been ok. Have you looked at him in ISO? What do you think of his notion that the scum team is made up of me, vijay and Arugula? What do you think of the point that Robocopter raised in this post?

[whispersilk]

P-EDIT: Largely because I'm worried about strongman. I am leaning toward that you actually don't, but it never overly hurts to be cautious.

You believe me to be town. I don't understand why you would be worried about a town player potentially having strongman, especially when it would be of no use to them on night 1 when using it without a second ability is pointless?

As for the AV read, I'll do that tomorrow either after work or when I wake up, depending on if I have the time.

Ok, cool.

[whispersilk]

@LLD:

Some reads and thoughts in general from you, especially regarding the IG wagon would be very helpful at this point.

[whispersilk]

Well given that S is pretty well established to be a Pro-Scum only letter your choice of M (which makes Strongman with S) makes that a viable question IMO.

I realise this, but it's not the only role M makes, and it could also be a very pro-town letter. In addition, my choice could have little to do with me trying to make up an ability, and more to do with preventing scum from snatching it today. The only person that knows why I chose it is obv me.

My question to you is – if you supported a Mass-letter claim initially why does Voided asking you about a specific letter (which doesn’t out your hand) bother you? I see your response but anyone having a Town read on someone doesn't mean they should not consider the possibility that their read is wrong.

My problem with Voided's question was the fact he asked it shortly after making it quite clear that he believes I'm town. He hasn't so much given me a town read as he has declared me town to other people - several times. So this made me curious as to whether he was now doubting my alignment, and if so, why would he make such convincing declarations over the last 24 hours, if all it took was me picking a letter that could be used by scum to hurt the town to start doubting himself, and why his first assumption was not that I was taking it to prevent scum from getting it.

Also, I started thinking about reasons why scum might point out my choice and ask me if I had the other letter to make up strongman, and how they could do it while appearing town-like. The first one that came to mind was the fact that scum know I am town, therefore they know I could not use a SM ability even if I had the S, because it would only leave me with one other tile, and that = no ability to use the SM with. So if scum knew for certain I had a S, then I would be a great target for a letter stealing ability, because I couldn't prevent it.

I'm not the only person to pick a letter that would benefit scum, but no one else has been asked about their other letters. This coupled with what I said just said, means there is a specific reason why I'm being asked, and the fact it came from the one person who seems to really believe I am town, and not someone else, say yourself for example, just doesn't sit right quite right with me. I expected Voided to either have nothing to say about it, or to express some kind of relief at the most. I still don't know if he's just doubting himself in a similar way to my doubts about IG, or if he's being clever scum. I'm still leaning towards him being town.

As for the massclaim part of your question. I would have had no problem at all coughing up my letters if we were all doing that, and then following my idea of structuring night actions, but we are not. And I see no reason why I should now be the only person to have to reveal either of their letters just because I chose the M. I won't be doing it because revealing either of my other letters will be a detriment to the town. That is all I'm prepared to say.

What also worries me is the others that jumped on his wagon, and the fact he did come up with a plan to guide the town.

So why don’t you detail the most scummy person who ‘jumped on’ Iceguy and pressure them?

Sorry, I should have used a different word. My problem is not that I think the people who joined his wagon after me are scum, it's that most of them are either town or null reads. The players I find scummiest are not on his wagon, which worries me somewhat. I have Amrun as a town read, both you and Arugula are leaning town, and Voided is a null - leaning town. So I'm confused at to whether this is a town driven scum wagon (with scum trying to divert attention to other people such as myself), or a town driven town wagon with scum distancing themselves. When taking into account the fact that IG came up with a plan, can you see why I'm doubting myself?

[whispersilk]

Voided how does whisper prove herself town? She calls 2minds out for misrepping but doesn't call them scum - look at the end of the post where she reveals she knows 2minds is town by pushing for actual scum hunting from them.

How does me telling a lurker to get in the game and do some real scumhunting instead of wasting his time making a case on me, make me scum? I'd love to know. Also, misrepping does not always mean scum. Yes, he did misrep me, but whether that is due to him simply not reading my posts properly because he's lazy or because he's scum remains to be seen.

As scum, do you always make a habit of creating shit out of nothing then slinging it at people you're trying to get lynched?

[whispersilk]

How does everyone feel about AurorusVox's refusal to answer the questions I've asked him now, and the ones from yesterday?

[whispersilk]

From my POV, yes. He is wasting time trying to connect dots between me and two other players when none exist. I didn't say he should stop investigating anyone else. I said his case on me was bad and I showed why.

[whispersilk]

No, this is what he said:

The main thing we noticed that made us believe this is the scum team is the interaction. There is almost no interaction between them at all. One thing odd about it is that argula has mentioned almost every other person, except vijay and whisper. The first time a cross mention is made is...

He then proceeded to show two instances of me interacting with vijay, and one of me with Arugula. So tell me, how does his theory of me being scum with those two make any sense given his it's based on no interaction between us, and he completely ignored the several other players that I had no interaction with at that point, yourself, Amrun and Voided included? He's only just started contributing to the game, and he comes up with a theory where I am scum, while not bothering to read my posts, and misrepping me at the same time. You'd either have to be stupid or scum to sheep him.

So which are you?

[whispersilk]

I realise this, but it's not the only role M makes, and it could also be a very pro-town letter. In addition, my choice could have little to do with me trying to make up an ability, and more to do with preventing scum from snatching it today. The only person that knows why I chose it is obv me.

All of these are reasonable points but none of them address why you feel answering “I don’t have an S” wasn’t viable or how Voided was not being Town oriented in his question.

It wasn't viable because I don't want to confirm or deny which letters I do or don't have. I don't recall you asking me how Voided was not being Town orientated in his question; you asked me why it bothered me, and I think I made it clear in my last response how I can see scum motivation in asking me, and also how I can see the town motivation, but I didn't expect the question to come from him because of his belief that I am town.

I'm not the only person to pick a letter that would benefit scum

, but no one else has been asked about their other letters. This coupled with what I said just said, means there is a specific reason why I'm being asked, and the fact it came from the one person who seems to really believe I am town, and not someone else, say yourself for example, just doesn't sit right quite right with me. I expected Voided to either have nothing to say about it, or to express some kind of relief at the most. I still don't know if he's just doubting himself in a similar way to my doubts about IG, or if he's being clever scum. I'm still leaning towards him being town.

Well given that multiple letters have both Pro Town and Pro Scum combinations makes the bolded dicey. Do you think anyone else has made a pick that can ONLY be beneficial to Scum (like S)? If so who are they?

What do you mean by "dicey"? It's fact that I am not the only person to pick a letter that would benefit them if they were scum. LLD blindly picked a "N", which obv doesn't mean she is scum, but N is what is needed for a Ninja. Did anyone ask her if she has a J? Unless I've missed it, I can't see it. Hoopla picked a "R". Did anyone ask her is she has a B? You took a "V", needed for a Vig. While these picks would benefit scum, they wouldn't

only

benefit scum, just like me picking the M could be of benefit to the town in several ways. So, no, no one has picked a letter that would

only

benefit scum. But I never said anyone did, so I'm not sure what your point is.

As for the massclaim part of your question. I would have had no problem at all coughing up my letters if we were all doing that, and then following my idea of structuring night actions, but we are not. And I see no reason why I should now be the only person to have to reveal either of their letters just because I chose the M. I won't be doing it because revealing either of my other letters will be a detriment to the town. That is all I'm prepared to say.

Revealing that you do not have an S is not the same as revealing your other letters and attempting to suggest they are is logically invalid. Thus any objections to saying “I don’t have an S” can’t be grounded in this logic.

I disagree. The S is obv important, and moreso now scum know I have a M. I would prefer to keep scum wondering what I have (as would every town player), and as I've already said, it would be detrimental to the town to reveal anything about what I do or don't have. I'm using my own judgement here and to me, it makes complete sense. I'm going to stick by it, because I feel it is best for the town.

Sorry, I should have used a different word. My problem is not that I think the people who joined his wagon after me are scum, it's that most of them are either town or null reads. The players I find scummiest are not on his wagon, which worries me somewhat. I have Amrun as a town read, both you and Arugula are leaning town, and Voided is a null - leaning town. So I'm confused at to whether this is a town driven scum wagon (with scum trying to divert attention to other people such as myself), or a town driven town wagon with scum distancing themselves. When taking into account the fact that IG came up with a plan, can you see why I'm doubting myself?

I understand your line of thought but can’t say I really ascribe to it. I guess this line of thought means regardless of whether you think Iceguy is scum there are FYPOV at least 2 scum off the wagon. I guess I would like your thoughts on those most likely to be scum (in two groups … scum diverting from a partner and scum simply staying off the wagon) who are not on Iceguy’s wagon.

I'm not going to answer this right now, but I will get to it before I go to sleep. It's nearly 10pm here. I need to think and re-read before giving you my thoughts. Just letting you know I'm not ignoring this part.

[whispersilk]

Well given that multiple letters have both Pro Town and Pro Scum combinations makes the bolded dicey. Do you think anyone else has made a pick that can ONLY be beneficial to Scum (like S)? If so who are they?

I just realised I missed this. I don't think S is only beneficial to scum. Share and Steal could both be very useful abilities for the town.

[whispersilk]

Do you sincerely believe that S is a letter that can only be beneficial to scum?

Read Post 86. It has already been explained there.

Do you

NOT

consider S to be only beneficial to scum?

I read your post and I disagree to a degree. Steal could be beneficial to the town, for example: say your read on a player changes after a flip to scum, stealing their letters, even if it is just one letter, would stop them from having an ability the next night. Sure, this is not the only example, and it's certainly not the most powerful ability by a long shot, but if there is little else, then I can see how it could be useful to town. Likewise, sharing tiles with your strongest town read is something else that could be done, and is something I would seriously consider if I thought there was a good chance I would end up the scum NK.

[whispersilk]

ICEGuy is town because scum are pushing his lynch (Whiskers, MoI, You)

I ignored her questions because they're pointless distractions that won't lead to anything.
I'd answer her stupid questions if she was town for the sake of clarity. But she's just asking for asking.

I don't mind answering questions of scum (i.e. you). But I won't answer pointless ones that are aimed at distracting me and making Whiskers appear to be doing something.

If everyone ignored everyone else's questions just because they thought they answering wouldn't lead anywhere, then mafia as a game would suck balls. Saying my questions are pointless and stupid is a lame attempt to get out of answering them.

If you were town, you'd be doing everything you could to push the wagon of the person you believe to be scum, and the person you're voting, including rebutting what they have to say to you, and by answering their questions to prove them wrong. Doing so helps your case on them. That's me. Right now, you're doing nothing to convince anyone or strengthen your case against me. You just look scummy and like you don't want to answer me because you either don't have the answers, or you know your answers will make you look worse.

Here are all the questions of mine that you've refused to answer. I'd like an answer for each of them, or an explanation as to what makes them pointless or stupid.

Spoiler:

In the future.

How would this benefit the town?

Ah I was reading on my phone and thought Hoopla was on 3 votes, not ICEguy. Not sure about his wagon. Yours and Argu's are decent (good), his is decent (sized) though.

In what way is my wagon good?

What do you think of the other two people voting for me, ie what are your reads on them?

Your wagon is good because you're scum.

Other than your sole reason for voting me, why else am I scum?

Popcorning is a way of controlling the picking process without making it too beuracratic.

I know what popcorning is. I was asking how you think the process is going to benefit the town? Other than not being too beuracratic, what other real benefits are there for the town?

And you were posturing by claiming people to be "at best null" but not following it up with a vote OR calling anyone scummy. That's pretty obvious considering it's the post I voted you for.

Do you know what posturing means?

The post you voted me for contained reads on 4 people, including yourself. You're right, I didn't specify which of the three on Arugula's wagon I found null or scummy, but at least I gave my reads at the time on 4 people, and then followed that post up stating I would vote when I'd decided who I found scummiest. I also stated here, a few posts before that I was not in favour of RVS voting and I would vote when someone gave me a reason to, so I don't understand why this is such an issue for you, and enough to vote me over other players that have shown real scummy behaviour.

Other than calling me scum, can you point out where you've given your own town and scum reads?

Also, can you answer the part of my previous post that you've not answered. Thanks.

No I can't because you're scum and this administration does not negotiate with terrorists.

Who do you THINK my scum reads are, bub?

Ok, you think I'm scum. I get it.

How does refusing to give your reads on the two other players voting me benefit anyone, especially the rest of the town?

Your refusal to give reads on two players is far scummier than anything I've done or not done. You've also chosen not to answer two other questions in my post.

What are your reasons for not telling me and everyone else exactly how your idea of popcorning the tiles will benefit the town? It's your idea, and not responding makes no sense.

Who do you THINK my scum reads are, bub?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking, and I'm asking about all your reads, not just scum ones. I can't see any reads in your ISO, just the two instances where you sheeped the Hoopla and Arugula wagons, before starting mine, and yes, you've called me scum. If I've missed them, then I apologise and I ask that you please point them out.

[whispersilk]

Whisper it detracts from my focus to have you constantly chirping about shit that I know you're only interested in for scummy motives. I could answer all of your questions right now if I wanted to. But what's the point? You won't change your mind about me since you already know I'm town and are faking having a scumread. Other players have plenty rest to judge me on, and your questions won't add anything. And to say I'm not trying to get you lynched is laughable when I've been pointing out your scumslips all day.

What exactly is your focus?

I ask because looking at your ISO, it's really not clear. You're doing no scumhunting, and your last 10 posts are either to blow me off, or just plain fluff. As for pointing out my scumslips - there have been no scumslips, others have disagreed with you, so get over yourself. There is little for anyone to judge you on.

And if you are about to claim that lynching me is your focus, then I suggest you pull something else out of your arse.

As for me knowing you are town - I know you are playing really badly in this game, regardless of your alignment. If we were scum together, I'd be pissed as fuck at your play. Likewise, if you are town, then I'm equally as pissed, because you're making yourself look scummy for no reason and your content is shite. I've played just one game with you some time back. Your town play was nothing like this. You actually scumhunted and made long posts that actually qualified as helpful content. That's why I think you're scum.

If you're not scum, the quit being weak useless town.

[whispersilk]

I'm not confident that IG is scum anymore, and I'm not comfortable with the fact that so many players are just not posting. LLD, DCLXVI, 2for1, vijay are all either not posting all, or posting fluff that in no way can be seen as scumhunting or giving reads, or even an opinion on the leading wagons. DCLXVI is worst of all, because what little he is posting is a load of nothing. They've all be very silent during all the back and forth between me/IG/MoI. None of them are on IG's wagon - I'd wager that 2 scum are off his wagon, possibly even all 3. There is no way we should be lynching him while this is going on.

I think everyone else voting IG needs to re-read the last 3 pages, especially his discussion with MoI, because that is basically what's confirmed my existing doubts. His thoughts on the letter thing mirror my own, and he turned around and unvoted me. Scum would be pushing harder to lynch me, especially after robocopter jumped on my wagon, not abandoning it altogether. Hella town vibes coming from post #335. Also, look at the players I mentioned above in ISO. Thoughts, comments please from everyone on the IG wagon. If you are not 100% certain he is scum, then unvote him please.

UNVOTE:

DCL, what the hell is your problem with me? Did I take a shit on your pillow or something?

I think you are scum. Therefor my vote is on you. Acting all pissy like that at L-5 is not giving me much reason to leave your wagon.

Whats kinda funny is that I make a post about "x", and then you go off on me for not posting about "y".

Now if I had written a much longer post with reads (which I will be doing later) and had not mentioned the hoopla vote, that would indeed be a cause for concern. But with a short post like that, I don't think it is expect that I'm going to write about everything that has happened so far.

I would like to see the reads you keep promising.

Also, what good do you think your vote is doing on his L-5 wagon? Who else do you think is scum? I'm expecting your answer won't include IG or me, and if it does, then I'd want to know why your vote isn't on either of us i.e somewhere it's going to actually make a difference.

[whispersilk]

Shit, I thought I did after I unvoted. Thanks for pointing that out while completely ignoring last post directed at you. Again. It just makes you look more scummy.

VOTE: AurorusVox

[whispersilk]

IceGuy isn't getting lynched. The two town wagons are not going to reach fruition.

I'm not going to answer this right now, but I will get to it before I go to sleep. It's nearly 10pm here. I need to think and re-read before giving you my thoughts. Just letting you know I'm not ignoring this part.

Still waiting for your to provide your list of who is scum off the wagon.

Sorry, I fell asleep and then forgot about this today. Full set of reads incoming.

I just realised I missed this. I don't think S is only beneficial to scum. Share and Steal could both be very useful abilities for the town.

I think I’ve already covered this well with Iceguy but S is only possibly beneficial at all to Town is niche scenarios that are not likely to occur. Thus I’m classifying it as a Pro-Scum letter and will continue to do so.

Fair enough, you're right that it's only useful in the right set of circumstances, but I still don't see it purely pro-scum.

[whispersilk]

@Amrun:

What are your reads on IceGuy and Arugula?

[whispersilk]

@Amrun:

What are your reads on IceGuy and Arugula?

EBWOP: This was mean to be Roocopter and Arugula.

[whispersilk]

Scum

- DCL, Vox

Leaning scum

- MoI, Robocopter, vijay, 2for1

Null

- Amrun, Arugula, LLD

Leaning town

- Voided

Town

- IceGuy, Hoopla

My read on

Vox

is very similar to my original read on IG. But IG went from scummy - bad town - better town as soon as we stopped our back and forth. Part of me is telling me that Vox is scum, but another part of me knows that he is smarter than this, and smart enough to not play scum so badly, and that part is telling me he's just stubborn meh town. My read on him volatile. No matter what his read on me, I genuinely want to see more content from him, because the part that sees him as bad town knows he can do better. The recent interaction with Robocopter is

My read on

Amrun

has gone from town - null. I can only put this down to gut until I've had more input from her, particularly her read on Arugula and Copter. I'd also like to hear her updated thoughts on IG.

My read on

LLD

is subject to change. Previously I read her as town, and I agree with Hoopla that her entrance was townish. A lack of content from her is the only reason she is now null.

[whispersilk]

@Vox:

Thing is, I don't see it as meta (because we've only played one game together, and I have no idea how you play as scum) as I am simply using my knowledge that you can play town much better than you are now. So if you are town, I don't understand why you're not. Trying to survive scum NK's (as MoI) suggested is not a good enough reason, imo.

I'm tired of bitching with you.

[whispersilk]

It was the newbie one that robocopter modded, I think. I subbed in blind on day 4 at L-1 as the jailkeeper. Talked my way out of it, a big debate ensued, and we finally lynched Thor, who was the last scum. Remember?

[whispersilk]

My answer to what?

[whispersilk]

DCL, what the hell is your problem with me? Did I take a shit on your pillow or something?

I think you are scum. Therefor my vote is on you. Acting all pissy like that at L-5 is not giving me much reason to leave your wagon.

Whats kinda funny is that I make a post about "x", and then you go off on me for not posting about "y".

Now if I had written a much longer post with reads (which I will be doing later)

and had not mentioned the hoopla vote, that would indeed be a cause for concern. But with a short post like that, I don't think it is expect that I'm going to write about everything that has happened so far.

Still waiting for that long post with reads, DCL.

patience grasshopper

Reads:

Town:

Voided, ICEguy, LLD, whispersilk

Null

: Robocopter, Vijay, 2minds1soul, MoI, Amrun

Scum

: Auros, Arugula, hoopla


Now about that vote on me

DCLXVI is one of the quieter posters, bordering on lurking.

I didn't like his vote on Arugula - looked forced,

and he hasn't really done much since. I wouldn't be surprised if he's scum.

And how exactly did my case looked forced? Honestly that bolded part just looks like bs filler. Its just a buzzword without any meaning thrown in to make your case on me look better.

I don't recall doing a lot of hyping, but I'll add that last post of your to the misrep list.

The only one to misrepresent anything is you. Your #414 is pathetic, and after saying there was a long post coming with reads, we were all expecting more than something you could have typed out in about a minute and half and given us a long time ago.

[whispersilk]

It was the newbie one that robocopter modded, I think. I subbed in blind on day 4 at L-1 as the jailkeeper. Talked my way out of it, a big debate ensued, and we finally lynched Thor, who was the last scum. Remember?

I don't recall this ever happening. lol Link plz?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=17689

I hated you so much when you sent me my role pm and then I entered the thread about to be lynched.

[whispersilk]

The only one to misrepresent anything is you. Your #414 is pathetic, and after saying there was a long post coming with reads, we were all expecting more than something you could have typed out in about a minute and half and given us a long time ago.

I re-read the entire thread before giving my reads, just cause I didn't right an essay explaining them doesn't mean I didn't put time into them.

We know shit about how much time you spent reading the thread. You said you were going to be making a much longer post with reads, and when prompted again about it you told Aru to have patience, like you were

really

taking your time and composing something that would make up for your lack of content, then you posted something that basically tells us very little and does nothing to improve the towns opinion of you. Instead of doing the one thing you could have to prove you really did some reading, you

chose

not to. There is no explination of your reads, no back up quotes to justify them, or follow up questions to any of your null or scum reads except for your little bit at the end to Hoopla, which ironically looks

forced

and just tacked on because you had already been called up over not responding to her vote on you.

[whispersilk]

You're already voting him, you idiot. The fact you just thought you were hammering him though, without giving him the chance to reply as he said he's going to is hella scummy.

It's pretty funny how everyone that is actually around, has jumped off me and IG and straight onto Arugula without really giving good reason. vijay is probably the worst.

[whispersilk]

Arugula, who is scum?

[whispersilk]

Hey guys! Here is the real $64k question. Was Arugula just hella bussed, or did the town just get butt-fucked because half of it's population is either vla or posting useless utter shite.

[whispersilk]

Do you

really

need me to tell you that?

[whispersilk]

@MoI:

Useless shite: AV, MoI, DCL, LLD and to a degree Hoopla.
VLA: vijay, 2for1, Amrun - all three somehow managing to pull off both. When they are here, they post nothing helpful to the town.

I'm somewhat disappointed in Hoop. I thought she would be scumhunting much more actively than she has been. The back and forth with Amrun was just fluff, and the back and forth with you is equally as useless as it is annoying to read. I do however understand the comment she made about being better able to read people once there has been a flip. I am also better at reading and picking up on the little tells once there has been results, especially scum flips. Hoping she

Robocopter, IG, Arugula, Voided and myself are the only people who seem to be really invested in this game. Sure, at times we've been focusing on the wrong people, but at least we were making an effort to hunt scum.

MoI, it's been mentioned before by other people - Your posts and efforts at scumhunting (if you can call it that) appear superficial and little more than someone going through the motions. You've no

real

or concrete reads, and you've yet to build a decent case against anyone. You appear to be fence sitting to keep your options open. You've made half-hearted attacks on most of the town, but never followed through with any of them, often just dropping them altogether to move onto someone else. You ask lots of seemingly pro-town questions of people, but to me, it's like there is this air of scumminess about them, like you're just waiting for someone to say something wrong, or basically anything you don't agree with, so you can make another quick superficial attack. I agree with much that Hoop and IG have said about you.

Going to stop now, because I want to get this in before the thread is locked. If you want them, and if there is time, I can and will provide evidence from your posts to back up my points against you.

[whispersilk]

@MoI:

Useless shite: AV, MoI, DCL, LLD and to a degree Hoopla.
VLA: vijay, 2for1, Amrun - all three somehow managing to pull off both. When they are here, they post nothing helpful to the town.

I'm somewhat disappointed in Hoop. I thought she would be scumhunting much more actively than she has been. The back and forth with Amrun was just fluff, and the back and forth with you is equally as useless as it is annoying to read. I do however understand the comment she made about being better able to read people once there has been a flip. I am also better at reading and picking up on the little tells once there has been results, especially scum flips. Hoping she

proves my town read on her to be valid by participating more tomorrow.

Robocopter, IG, Arugula, Voided and myself are the only people who seem to be really invested in this game. Sure, at times we've been focusing on the wrong people, but at least we were making an effort to hunt scum.

MoI, it's been mentioned before by other people - Your posts and efforts at scumhunting (if you can call it that) appear superficial and little more than someone going through the motions. You've no

real

or concrete reads, and you've yet to build a decent case against anyone. You appear to be fence sitting to keep your options open. You've made half-hearted attacks on most of the town, but never followed through with any of them, often just dropping them altogether to move onto someone else. You ask lots of seemingly pro-town questions of people, but to me, it's like there is this air of scumminess about them, like you're just waiting for someone to say something wrong, or basically anything you don't agree with, so you can make another quick superficial attack. I agree with much that Hoop and IG have said about you.

Going to stop now, because I want to get this in before the thread is locked. If you want them, and if there is time, I can and will provide evidence from your posts to back up my points against you.

Posted accidentally. Added the part in bold.

[whispersilk]

Fail, I missed a whole page. Anyway, VM is town.

MORE THAN THAT, GODDAMMIT!

Whisper, I suppose I can agree to quick attacks from MoI, but I doh't think his attacking of IceGuy is superficial. He's been going at it for most of the day (or at least since IceGuy's wagon was nearing being lynched), and while I will admit that I might be looking through confirmation bias,

I just haven't seen much from IceGuy that dissuades me from thinking he's town.

Vote: IceGuy

Reasoning from yesterday still stands.

Does not compute.

AVox, I don't see Whip-scum advocating or supporting a kill on the person who was calling her town as much as I was. Not for N1, anyways. I really don't think she should be a lynch candidate for today.

Is this the only reason why I shouldn't be a lynch candidate for today?

Also, the way you are responding to people and linking to their comments is seriously impeding my ability to understand your ISO or pretty much anything you are saying. Several people have already asked you to please use the quote button. I don't see why you can't use it, or how doing it the way you are can be any easier. The multi quote button is very useful when it comes to quoting different posts from the same page. Please use it, because refusing to do so, and thus making it difficult for people to follow what/who you are responding to, is now bordering on ridiculousness.

Obv not paying attention (@2minds).

AVox, what do you want explained?

That's pretty rich coming from you.

Your voting?

[whispersilk]

OMG YOU CAN QUOTE.

Shame you forget to include the poster.

But what are you getting at? Vijay why did you say that? What has that got to do with anything? I'm confused.

[whispersilk]

Other than why he chose to say it at all, the only part that doesn't really make sense is "so I don't want it used against me".

[whispersilk]

Hey guys! Here is the real $64k question. Was Arugula just hella bussed, or did the town just get butt-fucked because half of it's population is either vla or posting useless utter shite.

List the population half that is V/LA or posting useless shit before I move forward ...

Do you

really

need me to tell you that?

Yes, I do. I want to see who YOU think is doing it.

@MoI:

Useless shite: AV, MoI, DCL, LLD and to a degree Hoopla.
VLA: vijay, 2for1, Amrun - all three somehow managing to pull off both. When they are here, they post nothing helpful to the town.

I'm somewhat disappointed in Hoop. I thought she would be scumhunting much more actively than she has been. The back and forth with Amrun was just fluff, and the back and forth with you is equally as useless as it is annoying to read. I do however understand the comment she made about being better able to read people once there has been a flip. I am also better at reading and picking up on the little tells once there has been results, especially scum flips. Hoping she

proves my town read on her to be valid by participating more tomorrow.

Robocopter, IG, Arugula, Voided and myself are the only people who seem to be really invested in this game. Sure, at times we've been focusing on the wrong people, but at least we were making an effort to hunt scum.

MoI, it's been mentioned before by other people - Your posts and efforts at scumhunting (if you can call it that) appear superficial and little more than someone going through the motions. You've no

real

or concrete reads, and you've yet to build a decent case against anyone. You appear to be fence sitting to keep your options open. You've made half-hearted attacks on most of the town, but never followed through with any of them, often just dropping them altogether to move onto someone else. You ask lots of seemingly pro-town questions of people, but to me, it's like there is this air of scumminess about them, like you're just waiting for someone to say something wrong, or basically anything you don't agree with, so you can make another quick superficial attack. I agree with much that Hoop and IG have said about you.

Going to stop now, because I want to get this in before the thread is locked. If you want them, and if there is time, I can and will provide evidence from your posts to back up my points against you.

@MoI:

You made a bit of a fuss about wanting to know exactly who I thought was posting shite, but then never followed up on what I said, or addressed my thoughts on you. Is there any particular reason why?

[whispersilk]

Everyone flips before anyone takes. Then, players say what they are going to pick before they do so and we organize who will pick what tile. If someone picks a scummy letter, [S, N, J, etc] (which nobody will since it would virtually be suicide) then we know they are scum. Since no one would pick these letters, we keep powers like Ninja and Strongman from scum's hands. Also, no one should pick an unflipped letter, as that is the only way that scum would get their hands on these powers. Scummy players will get the bad tiles.

This is really really really dumb.

What if the scummy letter is all that is left?
The scum would just pick the most powerful letters considered 'town'.

An entirely loss-loss situation for everybody.

I don't think this post is scummy, I think its just dumb.

PEDIT: @ Voided: But do you want to call her scum? So is LLD scummy or not? You seem to be avoiding actually answering it. Also, I got a potentially powerful letter, does that make me scummy but not able to be called scum?

Arugula, why the heck are you still voting Voided?

Your initial reasoning was terrible. Then it was crushed by Voided and Amrun. You even replied to their defense as, "Fair enough". Yet your vote remains. It seems more of an omgus vote than anything else. So why does your vote remain?

DCL, you are tunneling me like crazy. After that whole escapade, all you have to say is QFT for one of IceGuy's horrible points on me?

Let me ask you this question: Do you think Amrun is town or scum?

And Robocopter, chill out. I'll post more when I'm not on my phone, but you haven't been a shining star scum hunter either. You mostly yell at others to do things you aren't doing yourself.

Okay, I'll give you credit, your first sentence had a valid point. Even if I did just point out that point.

You asked the same question as the post above you but to a different person. Nice job.

I'm not frustrated or angry or anything, I'm just curious why you dig your heels in when you could easily put them in their place by proving it.

@ MOI's request

1. MagnaofIllusion - Nullish-Town
2. Hoopla - Town
3. AurorusVox - Null
4. IceGuy - Null
5. Lady Lambdadelta - Pretty Town
6. Arugula - Null-Scum
7. 2minds1soul - Null (Needs to post moar)
8. Robocopter87 - Obvsexy
9. whispersilk - Scum
10. DCLXVI - Null (Needs to post moar content)
11. vijay2vasandani - Null-scum
12. Amrun - Town
13. Voidedmafia - Town

Yes.

In fact, I don't know why I'm voting Whisper when Arugula is clearly the scummier of the two.

UNVOTE: Whisper
VOTE: Arugula

DLC: In the other game, Llama gave a reason, however terrible it was, for his town tell, right?

[whispersilk]

^that was a total post fail. Ignore the robocopter posts, they are meant for a post directed at him.

DLC, the question at the bottom is meant for you.

[whispersilk]

I was in the middle of organising a post directed at Robocopter, and forgot I had pushed the multi-quote several times to quote him, then ended up hitting reply after typing my question to you.

/spaz

I don't think it's irrelevant at all. Your town reads on two players in this game were called out for being bullshit only after you made a song and dance about the fact that your reads were based on a town tell that you insisted was going to be kept secret.

I doubt Robo would have called your reads bs if you had given him a legit reason for them. He called them bs because you refused to do so. That is not the same as you calling Llama's town tell bs, because he gave a reason for it, no?

So your gambit really wasn't a gambit at all, and I don't see how you could have hoped to gain any useful information from your results, when the results you got were a direct result of a lie that was always going to elicit disapproval from town as well as opportunistic scum - therefore null.

[whispersilk]

^@DCL

[whispersilk]

Can we please slow this right down? Despite the fact that DCL has been a scum read for me all game, he has exhibited significant town behaviour since he was wagoned. I think there are other people worth considering, and although flawed, his gambit has resulted in comments by other people that have led me to see things I didn't see before - of which I will be posting about tomorrow morning. I've been distracted all evening and haven't really had the opportunity to get on and compose lengthy posts.

[whispersilk]

@LLD

: It's been 240+ hours since you last posted anything that vaguely resembles scumhunting.

Flip: B3

So the exchanges between DCL/Robo/IG got me thinking about IG again, so I did an indepth ISO, focusing mainly on who he was voting for, his scum reads on day 1 and most importantly the timing of everything. Also, why did I originally have a scum read on him and what exactly was it that changed my mind.

IG spent all of day one arguing with either me, MoI, Hoopla and to a lesser extent Arugula, calling me scum and Hoop scummy. When he unvoted me and voted Arugula, he then gave a set of reads that suddenly put me, MoI and Hoop into the "probable town" category, and also put Robo as his only other scum read besides Arugula. My problem here is that until this point, IG had never said one word about, or directed at Robo, except in his second post in the game where he asks MoI what he thinks of him. There is absolutely nothing after that - no questions, no pressure, no case and no hint that he thought him scummy before he gave those reads, and he never comments on MoI's response to his question. This might not have troubled me enough to change my read on him again, except I read this post (which I had previously missed while reading the game):

Yeah right. That is a damned if you do, damned if you don't statement.

If you read her as scum, she appears town and you are wrong.

If you read her as town, you are scum because she is a safe townread.

No, it's a "

when you pull a read out of thin air and it shows you're scummy

" statement.

IG was the first person to post anything after Arugula posted the plan which earned him scum points from many of you, but interestingly enough, he didn't call him scum and he didn't vote for him.

IG's main problem with Arugula appears to be Aru's town read on Amrun, yet IG

didn't

raise this point or attack Aru for it until 4 pages later, in fact, he voted me in-between the post where Aru calls Amrun town and the point where he starts up on Aru.

Also, at this point Aru had just voted for IG. I find this interesting because of something that IG said to me:

The fact that you suddenly discover I'm scummy based on a post from a few pages ago just when I start to attack you doesn't help your case, really.

Hypocritical to say the least.

IG starts off day 2 by voting for MoI. This happens despite the fact that MoI was not on the Arugula wagon, indeed none of his "probable town" reads were on the mislynch. Great, except just 5 posts later he's unvoting MoI and wait for it...voting Robo? - his only other scumread from day 1 who also happened to play a pivotal role in mislynching Arugula. No. Maybe one of his leaning scum reads LLD or Voided - one of whom was also on the mislynch, and the other having her vote on one of his probable town reads ALL DAY? Nope. He's voting 2for1 (a D1 null read) for something he clearly thought scummy enough to make him change his vote from MoI, yet not really scummy enough because just 3 posts after that his vote is put back on MoI There is still absolutely no mention of Robo.

So when exactly does IG talk to Robo, his D1 scum read for the first time? Well he says this in response to DCL:

I've been running a gambit.

Not buying it. (Although I like the conclusion that Robo is scum, for unrelated reasons though.)

I see where you're going with it, but town would also call BS on a secret tell as long as you don't give a good reason to not share it.

We still don't really know why IG thinks Robo is scum. All we have to go on is this from D1:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Arugula

Other scum reads: Robocopter
Leaning scum: LLD, Voided
Neutral or need to post more: Amrun, 2m1s, vijay, DCL
Unfortunately probably town: MoI, Hoopla, whisper
Town: AV

Posting to say I fully stand by those reads, and I believe the latest posts of Robo and Arugula confirm them - they definitely read like scum being very annoyed that their mislynch probably won't go through as easily as they hoped.

Ok, IG obviously thinks that Aru and Robo are scum buddies, so which recent posts and which mislynch is he referring to? Well Aru is voting IG and think's I'm town. So he must be referring to his own wagon, and the only posts from Aru that I can see are directed at Vox. But seeing as we now know that Aru was town, this is all moot. What about Robo? Which of Robo's posts in-between posts 342 and 381 could he mean? This is a very very easy answer because Robo (who has his vote on me) only posted once during this period:

I don't like how Robocopter is reacting.

/facepalm

Alright. There is this thing. It's called reasoning. We use it when we wish to describe and support our statements.

Go back, quote me, and use explanation to describe why I am scum.

ICEGUY I THINK YOU'RE TOWN
DONT LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN

Town: AV

Cmon man. You said this like three posts after AV said his. You didn't even make the obvious buddying less obvious.

DCL, what the hell is your problem with me? Did I take a shit on your pillow or something?

I did have a bandwagon going, and EXCUSE ME if I didn't realize that all but one person hopped off. Nonetheless, IceGuy abandoned his case on whispersilk and moved onto someone who others had previously voted: me.

You have been tunneling me this whole game. Literally. After pages of posts, that is all you have to comment on? That is scummy as hell.

You didn't even address Hoopla's vote on you.

Whoa man.

This is pretty vicious towards DCL. Yeah DCL has been doing crap for content (And you were not the first to point this out. i pointed it out and you resaid it multiple posts later.)

It was a ridiculous question to ask him nonetheless. He thinks you are scum. This game is called Mafia. You find Mafia. You kill the Mafia.

However he does need to post more content. But again, this has already been stated.

Sorry about this post, I made a better one like this. Except a lot of crap happened and I lost it. first post I've ever lost, I think. So this is just a quick recreation of it.

So the post that IG is using to back up his claim that Aru and Robo are scum together is a post where Robo attacks Aru twice. It's also noteworthy that Robo then unvotes me and votes Aru a few posts later and Aru unvoted IG and voted Robo. So, the two buddies are now voting each other. Oooooook. So does IG now consider that perhaps his theory of Aru/Robo might be wrong, or that maybe Robo is bussing Aru? I don't know because with Aru at L-1, IG goes into lurker mode, popping in to tell me that Vox was faking the hammer on Aru and to say this to MoI:

MoI, all I see is you accusing almost everyone else in the game with pretty much made-up reasons.

(I still think you're town, though.)

Back to lurk mode, then pops in again only after Amrun hammers Aru:

Aside from the fact that I hardly have suspected “everyone”. Thanks for playing.

You suspected LLD, whisper, Aurorus, vijay, Arugula, Hoopla, DCLXVI, and me. That's eight players in a three-scum game.

And you just recently said you'd lynch all of them except for whisper and Hoopla, which you dropped without an explanation.

You have never posted a read on Amrun, Voided, or 2m1s. You've actually completely ignored 2m1s.

In the end, you're giving and retracting scum reads without rhyme or reason, while remaining ambivalent enough so you can safely lynch everybody when time comes.

I think I have to re-think my "MoI is dumbtown" stance.

Here's a hint for next time: You probably should have dropped that point before I actually looked up the facts instead of posting from memory.

So here is the moment where IG reveals why he has a scum read on Robo (noteworthy: this only happens after DCL has connected IG and Robo as possible scum):

Are you implying that I was not running a gambit, or are you saying you disagree with the conclusions drawn from it?

Both. I think you weren't running a gambit, and I disagree that only scum calls out unexplained townreads.

@ICE, also why do you think robo is scum, a quick read-through of your posts throughout day shows that you haven't shared that information with us.

Mostly because of his reactions around my and Arugula's wagon yesterday, also MoI as one scumbuddy focusing on me and Robo almost completely ignoring me fits well, and a heavy dose of gut.

Hold on, that's not what you said yesterday (not that you really said anything about Robo). The only time you mention Robo-scum is when you called him buddies with Aru. You never talk of Robo-MoI scum. You had MoI as probable town (not that stopped you from wasting all your time arguing with him and ignoring Robo completely).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Arugula

Other scum reads: Robocopter
Leaning scum: LLD, Voided
Neutral or need to post more: Amrun, 2m1s, vijay, DCL
Unfortunately probably town: MoI, Hoopla, whisper
Town: AV

Posting to say I fully stand by those reads, and I believe the latest posts of Robo and Arugula confirm them - they definitely read like scum being very annoyed that their mislynch probably won't go through as easily as they hoped.

So robo magically becomes a scumread for you (which you have NEVER commented on all of day 2) despite that fact that you do not believe I attempted a gambit on him?

Not "magically". He already was a scumread in my reads post on D1, and on D2 I focused on MoI.

(Oh, and I see what you're trying to do here. No, it won't work.)

But hey, you must think MoI and Robo are scum buddies now.

And finally, this is the first thing you've said to Robo all game long:

Robo, what do you think of MoI?

I hope we all get to read Robo's findings before anyone is lynched.

IG's is completely ignoring his only other D1 scum read Robo (despite calling him scum again today with bs reasoning) in order to vote someone who up until the moment Aru was lynched was probably town and was not on the mislynch wagon.

This makes no sense.

VOTE: IceGuy

IG's AtE yesterday had me completely fooled and I can only assume he unvoted me either because he knew I wasn't going to get lynched, or to distance in case I was lynched. Also noteworthy: IceGuy resorted to AtE when he was close to being lynched. Aru actually posted right up until he was lynched, giving reads and input. I'm now going to go read Robo again (which I was doing the other day, then lost track after focusing on IG). Will be back a little later with an ISO breakdown. I don't know how this all fits in with DCL yet. I need to give him more thought, but for now I don't think he should be the lynch today.

[whispersilk]

You mean that was't a rhetorical question? Wow.

VOTE: whispersilk

"null at best" implies one or more of the three on the wagon other than amrun is a scumread of yours. Yet you have no vote placed. Stop posturing and keeping your options open, scumbag.

[whispersilk]

This is a bit much coming from someone who has refused to answer pretty much everything I've asked of him.

You think I'm scum because on day 1, I called 3 people "null at best" and you thought it scummy that I wasn't voting any of them, even tho I stated

[whispersilk]

wtf

even tho I stated I would vote someone when I decided who was most scummy.

Other than that I have no idea because you refused to answer anything. Maybe you can fill me in now.

[whispersilk]

And now off to the next person who made a "case"!

IG spent all of day one arguing with either me, MoI, Hoopla and to a lesser extent Arugula, calling me scum and Hoop scummy. When he unvoted me and voted Arugula, he then gave a set of reads that suddenly put me, MoI and Hoop into the "probable town" category, and also put Robo as his only other scum read besides Arugula. My problem here is that until this point, IG had never said one word about, or directed at Robo, except in his second post in the game where he asks MoI what he thinks of him. There is absolutely nothing after that - no questions, no pressure, no case and no hint that he thought him scummy before he gave those reads, and he never comments on MoI's response to his question. This might not have troubled me enough to change my read on him again, except I read this post (which I had previously missed while reading the game):

Robo was always my secondary or tertiary suspect, and there was never a chance I could get him lynched.

Saying there was never a chance of getting him lynched is completely redundant when you made zero effort to make any kind of case against him or simply state for the rest of the town why you thought he was scum. There is a reason it's called scumhunting. There is a reason you build a case against someone.

There were always targets that were more likely scum (such as MoI today) and where there was an actual possibility I could get them lynched.

I'm talking about yesterday - the day where you thought MoI was town. So who else did you spend time on yesterday... and I mean other than the two people you claimed were scum at first, then said they were town?

Basically, your one firm scumread was the only one you neglected to make a case on the entire day, oh other than mislynching Aru along with your only other scum read.

Therefore, efforts on Robo would've been wasted.

Wasted like when you wasted an inordinate amount of time arguing with MoI, who according to several comments you made throughout the day, was town?

You got your facts wrong. The correct timeline is:
#86: Arugula posts an Amrun townread.
#193: I attack you for your Amrun townread.
#201: Arugula votes me and reaffirms his Amrun townread.
#342: I vote Arugula.

No, I didn't get my facts wrong. I never brought up your attack on me regarding my town read on Amrun, because I was referring to your attack on Aru for the same reason, which did not happen until some 4 pages after he gave his read. But now that you mention it, why did you make such a big deal of it when attacking Aru and not with me?

But thumbs up on completely ignoring my point - which was that you called people scummy for doing things that you were guilty of yourself.

tl;dr: I pressure voted 2m1s and put my vote back on MoI when it became clear it wasn't working. Just as I said when I did it.

Just as you said what? You never said your vote on 2for1 was a pressure vote when you voted him or when you unvoted him.

I doubt your vote was for pressure, because you didn't even give 2for1 a chance to reply before you unvoted him again. In fact, you unvoted him before he even came back to the thread.

Again, tl;dr: I have a scumread on Robo and have not followed up because it doesn't like he's going to get lynched, and there are people with stronger scumreads I could get lynched.

Again, your excuse is that "it doesn't look like he's going to get lynched". That's just lame. Who else besides Robo and MoI is scum?

tl;dr: Nah this is actually completely irrelevant.

Stop saying tl;dr. It's completely relevant. You claimed something, and I've just made a point against your claim. Either refute it or admit your actions.

Reads change. With good reasons like this one.

Convenient how that happened right after Aru was hammered and set things up nicely today for you.

Point?

I explained my read on D2 from a D2 standpoint, not from a D1 standpoint. If somebody flips and/or I change a read this obviously has repercussions for drawing connections.

So your entire point seems to be: I sometimes change reads based on new facts and re-evaluate other reads based on new connections those new reads could bring. Also I don't waste my time with secondary or tertiary scum reads where I don't have a chance to lynch them.

Sounds like a description of good town practices.

Again, you're completely ignored the point. You only mention Robo after DCL made the link between the two of you.

Mostly because of his reactions around my and Arugula's wagon yesterday, also MoI as one scumbuddy focusing on me and Robo almost completely ignoring me fits well, and a heavy dose of gut.

But yesterday while Robo was ignoring you (lol btw, as you've basically admitted to completely ignoring him as a scum read), you had MoI as a town read.

Yesterday you said that you thought Aru and Robo were scum buddies. Now that Aru has been mislynched, it's MoI and Robo. Except you've neglected to make a case against Robo two days running (despite the fact he was on the mislynch wagon), using the excuse that you wouldn't be able to get him lynched, and instead gone after your other sudden convenient scum read.

What kind of response do you expect to get from Robo regarding MoI, and what was really the point in asking it anyway when you think they are scum buddies?

[whispersilk]

Why the effort if you can lynch a suspect with a higher priority more easily?

So when and why did Arugula become higher priority?

At different people at first, then mostly with defending myself against a clear fake attack.

A fake attack from whom?

No, that wasn't a "firm" scumread. I only had the Robo scumread relatively late in the day.

Did you suspect Robo when you asked MoI what he thought of him?

Wasted like when you wasted an inordinate amount of time arguing with MoI, who according to several comments you made throughout the day, was town?

What?

You claimed that making a case against Robo would have been a waste of time. So I've asked you would that have been a waste of time in the same way that you wasted a significant portion of yesterday arguing with a town read?

My attack on you is relevant. Arugula mentioned the attack on you as reason for why he didn't think you were scum. That's also why I mentioned it later, honestly I had already forgotten Arugula's early read at that point.

So you went from wanting to lynch me, and possibly Hoopla, to calling us both probable town, to then jumping on the Arugula wagon after your scum read Robo kicked it up the arse?

So why did you vote for Arugula again? I don't recall you giving a reason when you voted.

And you're calling me scummy for changing reads, when your read on me has changed from town to scum back to town and now to scum again.

And with good reason, which is something your actions are sorely lacking.

Pressure votes are rather silly when announced beforehand - and I announced it later when I moved my vote back to MoI.

Other than that, what could have been the reason of the vote? There is really no alternate interpretation that makes sense.

You mean you announced your pressure vote in this post?

And no, I didn't disengage from you.

I voted 2m1s to show him his behavior was inacceptable and to possible get a reaction, which succeeded.

I moved my vote back to you when it came back to lynching actual scum and not shitty lurkhydras.

A reaction from whom?

As mentioned, Voided and DCL are other suspects.

Really, so with DCL being a scum suspect at L-1 and your MoI wagon going nowhere, you probably intend to hammer DCL once everyone has picked their letters, right?

Of course it's irrelevant. You stated a number of game happenings in a confusing way and claimed that somehow made me scum. Two suspects of mine voting each other doesn't make me scum, just as stating I have two suspects doesn't mean the entire scum read is based on connections, they can be independently scummy.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Arugula

Other scum reads: Robocopter
Leaning scum: LLD, Voided
Neutral or need to post more: Amrun, 2m1s, vijay, DCL
Unfortunately probably town: MoI, Hoopla, whisper
Town: AV

Posting to say I fully stand by those reads, and I believe the latest posts of Robo and Arugula confirm them -

they definitely read like scum being very annoyed that their mislynch probably won't go through as easily as they hoped.

You wording clearly illustrates that you thought they were scum together, and you said "mislynch", not mislynches, like they were working together to get one person lynched. You also said they had made posts which portrayed them as annoyed. So my reason for quoting the one and only post that Robo made during this time frame, was because in that post Robo attacks Aru TWICE. How did attacking the person you thought was his scum buddy lead you to believe he was annoyed scum?

Actually, reads have changed throughout the game.

What was it exactly made you think MoI was scum after an entire day of fighting with him while calling him probable town?

Again, you're completely ignored the point. You only mention Robo after DCL made the link between the two of you.

I already mentioned Robo on D1. I explained more when asked.

Mostly because of his reactions around my and Arugula's wagon yesterday, also MoI as one scumbuddy focusing on me and Robo almost completely ignoring me fits well, and a heavy dose of gut.

But yesterday while Robo was ignoring you (lol btw, as you've basically admitted to completely ignoring him as a scum read), you had MoI as a town read.

What's so hard to grasp about the concept of "reads change, flips happen, connections get erased and drawn"?

Nothing. My problem is this: your "connections" might be getting erased and drawn, but the one constant is Robo - someone you've said two words to all game and have failed to attack in any way shape or form. My problem is that you're calling him scum while placing no pressure and going after people you claim are his buddies while at the same time trying to imply that just because you two people are scum doesn't mean they are scum together. Give me a break.

Also, the fact that you call Robo scum distancing by completely ignoring you, while his partner MoI tunnels you, is ridiculous considering you've been ignoring him to the same extent.

You mean the "sudden convenient scum read" that came after a bunch of wallposts and a particularly egregious example where incompetence was no longer an excuse?

Could you please quote exactly what MoI did or said to make you think he was scum.

Whisper, here are three questions for you.

1) When a read changes due to happenings in the game, is that a scumtell?

No, unless the read changes without good reason, or seems convenient and well timed.

2) When one revisits an earlier day and starts drawing connections with the new information, is that a scumtell?

It is when you completely ignore the constant (Robo) and go after the alleged connections (one who flipped town), just like you're doing.

3) When one has a rather low-level scum suspect that never has a wagon on him and there is the possibility to lynch a player who is more likely scum, is it a scumtell to focus on the latter?

You didn't focus on Aru. You spent all day arguing with MoI, me and a bit with Hoopla. You attacked Aru when it was convenient for you to jump on his wagon which had picked up again.

So what is your point in asking this question when it doesn't apply to my point against you?

Actually, a fourth question I just remembered:

4) When one has several scum suspects, can the read be based on anything else but connections between them?

Of course. Some scum are perfectly capable of distancing/buddying, so reads are often based on other things. What is your point?

[whispersilk]

When his wagon became the prime wagon (except for me).

So he only became a scum read when he had more votes than you?

Cool.

Did you suspect Robo when you asked MoI what he thought of him?

When?

/sigh

As I've already said, you only mention Robo once, where you asked MoI what he thinks of him and LLD. Did you think Robo was scum when you asked him that?

This was not "wasted".

So arguing bullshit for pages and pages with a town read is not wasting time? Is that what you are saying?

I had various scum reads in the beginning. I had different scum reads later.

Yes, you had me as a scum read, which changed when you realised I wasn't getting lynched.

So far, you have completely ignored why when I change reads it's scummy

, but when you change reads regarding me it's perfectly fine.

No, I don't think I have.

So why did you vote for Arugula again? I don't recall you giving a reason when you voted.

Because I had a scum read on him.

A scum read that appeared out of nowhere when you voted him, yes I'd noticed.

You mean you announced your pressure vote in this post?

What are you referring to with "this post"?

lol, the post of yours that I quoted directly beneath? Here, I will quote it again:

And no, I didn't disengage from you. I voted 2m1s to show him his behavior was inacceptable and to possible get a reaction, which succeeded. I moved my vote back to you when it came back to lynching actual scum and not shitty lurkhydras.

A reaction from whom?

2m1s obviously, maybe MoI.

So, you claim you laid a pressure vote to "obviously" get a reaction from 2for1, and you claim your vote succeeded in getting that. Can you please quote the reaction from 2for1 that you are referring to.

You also said they had made posts which portrayed them as annoyed. So my reason for quoting the one and only post that Robo made during this time frame, was because in that post Robo attacks Aru TWICE. How did attacking the person you thought was his scum buddy lead you to believe he was annoyed scum?

"Annoyed" as in "annoyed their easy mislynch is going away". Also, how is the whole "Robo attacks Arugula" stuff relevant? Do you immediately drop two scumreads when they attack each other? Never heard of bussing especially as an Arugula wagon wasn't completely outlandish?

No, this is precisely why I asked you earlier what you thought about the fact they were voting each other and did you think it was a bus. But you ignored that question.

Nothing. My problem is this: your "connections" might be getting erased and drawn, but the one constant is Robo - someone you've said two words to all game and have failed to attack in any way shape or form. My problem is that you're calling him scum while placing no pressure and going after people you claim are his buddies while at the same time trying to imply that just because you two people are scum doesn't mean they are scum together. Give me a break.

No, Robo is not the "one constant". The Robo scumread came relatively late on D1 and he was always a minor suspect as compared to others such as Arugula and MoI. Is that so hard to grasp?

How the hell could Robo have been a "minor suspect" compared to MoI when you gave Robo a scum read and MoI a probable town read? What rubbish. And as for Aru, you only gave him a scum read when you voted him. Until then, you'd never called him scum. You didn't vote for him until his wagon surpassed your own. Robo is clearly the one constant in your scum reads from yesterday and your reads from today.

Also, the fact that you call Robo scum distancing by completely ignoring you, while his partner MoI tunnels you, is ridiculous considering you've been ignoring him to the same extent.

That was an associative tell. What you're doing is again circular reasoning.

No, it's me pointing out you're accusing Robo of ignoring you, while completely ignoring him. That's called scummy.

Well timed such as your sudden change to "IceGuy is scum" when a DCL lynch was imminent? Doesn't that look like "well timed"?

Are you implying that my case on you was aimed at saving DCL?

It is when you completely ignore the constant (Robo) and go after the alleged connections (one who flipped town), just like you're doing.

What? That doesn't actually make sense.

I give up.

Can't you distinguish between "attacking" and "responding to attacks"? That the only reason I posted so much with regard to MoI and you was to defend myself from attacks, but my attacking went elsewhere?

Ok, I can see the difference. Where did your attacks go?

My point is that your answer here contradicts your "case" on me above. You claim my scumreads are made invalid by connections between them.

No, I haven't claimed anything of the sort. I'm saying that your actions and voting makes no sense given that you have had a constant scum read since yesterday, yet you've not attacked him or even said a word to him. You attack the people you connect him to.

[whispersilk]

Fuck it. I'm having doubts again.

I really hate this game.

Vox, why is IG town?

[whispersilk]

Seriously, LLD and 2for1 need to either get the fuck in this game, or get the fuck out and let someone who actually wants to play replace in. This is getting ridiculous.

Amrun and vijay are almost as bad.

[whispersilk]

unvote

[whispersilk]

Collect: B4

[whispersilk]

Ice, it looks like Amrun hasn't collected.

[whispersilk]

Day 2

>>>

DCLXVI

(5) vijay2vasandani, Robocopter87, MagnaofIllusion, Lady Lambdadelta, Voidedmafia

<<<

MagnaofIllusion

(2) IceGuy, AurorusVox

Robocopter87

(1) DCLXVI

Not Voting

(3) 2minds1soul, whispersilk, Amrun 

However, voided did that afterwords with blatant disregard to what I could have done if I was scum. I would say that this shows he is coming from a scum perspective because scum obviously do not have to worry about a townie self hammering. So if he were scum he would know that it would be safe to put me at L-1 which is a move that a townsperson should not make until everyone has collected.

Because at the time, the amount of damage that DCL-scum could do by self-hammering was getting to a point where it wouldn't exactly be a feasible option for him? Nearly 3/4ths of the playerlist have collected by now, so at this point you wouldn't be stopping a whole lot in that regard.

But if you insist:

Vote: IceGuy

VOTE: IceGuy

IG's AtE yesterday had me completely fooled

I’m having a hard time reconciling this Whisper. Here’s what I am seeing …

Yesterday you vote for Iceguy. He’s wagonned to L-2 and stays there for a bit before he begins his AtE and lurking.

You unvote and call him Town for “Townie reactions”. Yet now you are effectively saying Arugula’s reaction (keeping posting under pressure) was a Town reaction.

And today you call for a slowdown on DCL (who you said was a general scum read because he has had Townie reactions under fire. And then you completely re-assess Iceguy and vote him when there is no wagon momentum.

Do you expect Iceguy to actually get lynched over DCL? Frankly I’d rather Iceguy hang than DCL as I think the case on him is much stronger. But I do have a scum read on DCL and am not about to derail the wagon especially since the links between then (both calling each other scum today without voting each other) point to partnership when Iceguy isn’t really viable as a counter-wagon.

Frankly I’d rather Iceguy hang than DCL as I think the case on him is much stronger.

I agree. I'd much rather see ICEguy hang then myself.

VOTE: ICEguy

Yes. In the end, it boils down to three people who did not derail my wagon jumping on Arugula's wagon once it became the dominant one, none of them hammering me or putting me on L-1.

This is absurd. You are trying to present it as there was a mass exodus from your votes and then suddenly the Arugula wagon appeared independantly.

That's crap of the highest order. For those interested in what ACTUALLY happened here's my summary of vote flow AGAIN from Post 559 -

Whisper unvotes him at Post 374. At this point the wagon composition (as shown in Post 375 are such –

IceGuy (4) Arugula, Voidedmafia, MagnaofIllusion, Amrun
whispersilk (3) 2minds1soul, AurorusVox, Robocopter87
Arugula (2) DCLXVI, IceGuy
Hoopla (2) Lady Lambdadelta, vijay2vasandani
DCLXVI (1) Hoopla

Not Voting (1) whispersilk

So Iceguy has 4 votes, Whisper 3, and Arugula and Hoopla 2. Here’s what happens next and demonstrates to me why Iceguy is being bailed out by his partners.

Whisper votes for AV at Post 377. First line of evidence that she’s Town in my scenario … she chooses to vote a singleton and not fuel the coming mislynch.

At Post 384 AV directly asks Robo is he would lynch Arugula over Whisper to keep Iceguy from being lynched. Both are voting Whisper at this stage but moving to Arugula would make his wagon equal with Iceguy’s. At Post 385 Robo votes Arugula and Post 386 AV votes Arugula. It’s important this interchange for multiple reasons.

1. In Post 382 Robo lists both Ice and AV as Null reads with Arugula as Null-scum and Whisper as Scum. Why is Robo so eager to work with a Null read AV to save Null read Iceguy to lynch Null-scum Arugula over his previous most scummy read Whisper? I could understand if he was willing to work closely with a strong Town read but AV was Null to Robo. Furthermore we’ve never seen any explanation why suddenly Robo has Arugula as more likely scum than Whisper.

2. AV has pretty much been focusing on Whisper after giving Arugula some cursory focus very early in the day. Yet he’s suddenly willing to shift only after Whisper (who is scum to him) unvotes Iceguy. Note that this doesn’t change his read on Whisper at all (as evidenced by today and post-hammer).

So the timing of this two-step is suspicious as fuck.

DCL pops in and keeps his vote on Arugula while not really commenting on anything other than Hoopla voting him at Post 414.

Vijay drops a Arugula vote at Post 430. This moves Arugula ahead of Iceguy by a score of 5-3 (Arugula had already moved his vote to Robocopter by this point).

So in a grand total of 45 posts Arugula went from a wagon of 2 to a wagon of 5 (with a 2 vote clearance from Ice-scum). And this coincides with Iceguy having been at L-2 for over 100 posts and his AtE flailing as a last ditch effort to keep away from the noose.

Couple that with Iceguy’s scummy play that got him that L-2 wagon in the first place Day 1 and you have the clear recipe for scum bailing out their partner ..

Iceguy can't actually argue any of the above so he keeps pretending repeating "WAK ITS ABSURD" like a brain damaged parrot is refutation of my theory.

VOTE: Iceguy

This should have happened yesterday as opposed to that terribad wagon on Arugula ...

This thread needs Amrun to actually post some content as opposed to posting “Content coming” and disappearing from the thread while posting elsewhere.

2for1 also needs to do some posting

I think it is pretty clear that Iceguy is playing 100% reactive. When he is under pressure he does exactly what he accuses me of doing … walling with said person in an attempt to start a War of Attrition.He did it with me yesterday and now he is doing the same with Whisper.

When he’s not under direct scrutiny he’s lurking and fluffing (look at his posts when DCL was wagonned) as opposed to scum-hunting.

We simply need two more votes and we can correct the mistake that was made yesterday in letting him off the hook …

Let's lynch MoI today.

VOTE: MoI

[whispersilk]

can you explain how MoI just claimed scum. I don't see it.

He's taking normal town behavior (voting a player I'm willing to lynch who has a large wagon and a high possibility of getting lynched) and insinuating it makes me scum. This is not scumhunting in good faith, that's not even refined manipulation, this is a primitive attempt at trying to get my mislynch wagon through so his partner doesn't get lynched.

...Still not a scumclaim.

Whisper: Don't see it. Why should I lynch MoI?

First, he insinuates I'm scummy for again changing my read on IG (nevermind the fact that it changed back to a scum read and he also thinks IG is scum), and in an even more subtle way, he's saying that I'm somehow trying to save DCL (who is a scum read of mine).

Then despite saying he wants to lynch IG more than DCL, and the case on IG is better, he really does not want to derail the DCL wagon.

Then, after DCL and Voided vote IG, he jumps off DCL and votes IG.

Why is this scummy? Well, first his comments directed towards me just scream that should IG get lynched and flip town, then basically, I'm the one that is going to get the blame tomorrow, because I was the one that derailed the DCL wagon that he wanted to keep intact, and by purposefully making a show of waiting for 2 other people to jump on IG, he has a good excuse in saying that since the DCL wagon was derailed, he had no option but to vote for IG, his main scum read. Except only one of those people (Voided) was on the DCL wagon (DCL obv not voting himself), so basically, his song and dance meant nothing. What happened to not wanting to derail the DCL thread?

Now Voided's vote on IG is terribad too. Voided ditches the case he's had on IG since day 1 (except he hasn't really had a case of his own, mainly sheeped other people) to vote DCL, who is also trying to push a IG lynch, but the way he does it is like he's trying to ditch the responsibility onto someone else.

MoI is acting scummier than IG has all game. His recent post combined with what I said about him yesterday is enough for me to vote him.

@Amrun:

If you could stick around for like 5 minutes to answer something: Why is IG scum?

@Vox:

IG? Town? Quotes? Yes? No? Bub?

[whispersilk]

Oh look another mystery wagon that springs out of nowhere to save Iceguy from the noose ...

Color me not shocked ...

Yes, of course, I started a wagon on you to save the guy that I started a wagon on.

Colour me lol!

[whispersilk]

Made it to page 25, will have to finish up when I finally get home as I'm about to get back on a train.

Thoughts so far:

-IceGuy still scum. What's really funny is that he's saying MoI "ramps up" a person's scumminess, which is totally true, but is NOT a scumtell... It's actually a TOWNTELL for MoI. And it's doubly funny because IceGuy also does this, but I've never observed him doing it as town.

Really? Cuz in a game I played with him where he was scum and I was town, he hella ramped up my scumminess and spent all of the first two pages pushing a policy lynch on me by telling everyone I was the worst player around and was power-lurking scum. Except he can't pull that in this game cuz I'm obv town playing completely against my lurk-scum meta. Which thankfully Hoopla pointed out for everyone.

[whispersilk]

Dammit, stupid palm.

Whisper, why did you include my vote on IceGuy and could you please explain what you're getting at here?

Oh look another mystery wagon that springs out of nowhere to save Iceguy from the noose ...

Color me not shocked ...

That is quite the coincidence, though. Even ignoring DCL's wagon (since at the time it was considered to be another wagon on scum), should this kick off this would be the second time IceGuy's been saved. Incidentally, he's being saved by the same people who went to Arug yesterday: himself, robo, and AVox.

That's too similar to just be coincidence.

Wtf, I derailed the DCL wagon by starting the IG wagon, which I then derailed to start the MoI wagon.

Are you on acid or something? Do you see the idea he's trying to push and why he's completely wrong?

[whispersilk]

You say you only use things that are legitimately scummy, but as we've covered earlier, I only consider one of the points you brought up legitimate.

It's not about presentation, IceGuy. You are clearly concerned about how you are perceived in this game; every single post drips with it. That's a trait found FAR more often in scum.

To give an answer to both of your points...

Why don't you give an example?

If those traits are so pervasive they're in almost every post, where is your problem with pulling out one of those posts and explaining your point?

Is it because the whole house of cards would fall apart? Because it would force you to commit to a specific position I could disprove instead of throwing out accusations?

I literally just gave you like 5 examples. What the fuck are you smoking.

@Amrun:

No, I think IG was asking for examples of what I've bolded in your post above, of which you haven't given any (your deflection being immediately obv). I'm highlighting this for two reasons, (a) IG is now being made look scummy for his arguing with you, when in fact you're the one not backing up all your points against him and (b) I'm curious to see what you're talking about because in my experience of discussion with IG (especially on D1), he's come off as either stupid, rude or just plain stubborn. He's defended himself pretty well against me today, but not in the way you've claimed. The more I've pushed him, the more I've liked his responses.

MoI had you and DCL as scumreads. With DCl's wagon beginning to derail at the time, why is it scummy for him to jump back to you, since again both of you are scumreads to him?

@Voided:

I've already pointed out why MoI was scummy in my reply you. He made a song and dance about my IG wagon having no momentum and the fact that he refused to derail the DCL wagon by switching votes. All it took was one person unvoting DCL (you) for MoI to throw that out of the window and vote IG. This is not switching wagons because the other guy has more votes and is thus more viable than the wagon you're one, because IG still had fewer votes that DCL. MoI's unvote on DCL did more damage to DLC's wagon than your unvote did, and is the opposite of what MoI said he was prepared to do.

The idea that scum is derailing a wagon on IG-scum?

Exactly. Who unvoted IG when he was at L-1 and started a counter wagon?

[whispersilk]

You've done scummy things, but what you were worried about certainly wasn't one of them.

@DCL:

You said this to IG. What scummy things has IG done exactly? In your own words please.

[whispersilk]

Well, for the post in question, it seems he's calling you out for a contradiction in what you call "town reactions": Namely that IG AtE's a lurks which made you call him town, but Arug reacts and posts actively, which you also call him town for.

I never said the fact that IG lurked when at L-2 was towny. In fact, I said the opposite in my case against him today. Yes, his AtE post felt towny yesterday, but that was not the main reason I unvoted him, not even close. I stated quite clearly my reasons for the unvote in post #374. After Aru was lynched, and taking into account how he (Aru) reacted to it all, I realised that IG's AtE wasn't nearly as towny as I thought, but now I don't believe is it proof of being scum either. I've resorted to AtE as town. I brought it up when voting IG again, because at that point, I was back to thinking he was scum, and it fit as scummy behaviour. Now it's just null.

Then despite saying he wants to lynch IG more than DCL, and the case on IG is better, he really does not want to derail the DCL wagon.

Well, he did call crap on others for derailing the IG wagon, and while this may be against his own style, I don't find it that bad that he doesn't want to catch himself in his own contradiction.

Except he did.

Now Voided's vote on IG is terribad too. Voided ditches the case he's had on IG since day 1 (except he hasn't really had a case of his own, mainly sheeped other people) to vote DCL, who is also trying to push a IG lynch, but the way he does it is like he's trying to ditch the responsibility onto someone else.

I admit to sheeping some, yes--though IIRC I did profess the points in my own words and didn't just do nothing but sheep MoI--but since DCL and AVox were getting all wound up about (AVox, mainly), I just decided to give them their requet. I suppose the post in question can carrying that implication, but I was perfectly willing to revote DCL once the majority of people had collected/flipped.

Why do you care what the hell Vox thinks or wants? Yesterday, you said that he could hang today for his scummy behaviour. And why do you care what the hell DCL thinks or wants? You think he is scum and you were just voting him.

Do you make a habit of sheeping your scum suspects and giving them what they want?

MoI is acting scummier than IG has all game. His recent post combined with what I said about him yesterday is enough for me to vote him.

...No, I don't think that's true.

If that is the case, then I would love to read your reasons, in your own words, for why IG is scum.

[whispersilk]

@Amrun:

If you could stick around for like 5 minutes to answer something: Why is IG scum?

I have found him extremely scummy starting from yesterday; I dislike how he questioned Arugula's townread on me while NOT having a scumread on me. In general, most of his reads don't gel in this way. This is a hallmark of "looking for things to attack" rather than genuinely scumhunting, and undermining town reads like that is a favorite scumtell of mine.

Yes, it's interesting that I raised this in my case against him, except he explained his reason for the attack pretty well. He brought it up only after Aru brought it up. Some 4 pages of the game had passed since Aru had called you town. If IG was "looking for things to attack", you think he would have jumped on that before then.

But that's quite interesting, because you have just done the same thing. I cannot comprehend your jump from IceGuy to MoI. It makes zero freaking sense.

MoI has been this little nagging thing in my gut, and I made a post at the end of yesterday explaining why I found him scummy. I've went from voting IG to MoI, because of MoI's actions and the way he abandoned the DCL wagon.

Also, looking back at the voting patterns from earlier today, it makes no sense that MoI would abandon his awesome case and vote on IG to jump to DCL, when IG and DCL had an equal # of votes.

I really liked your case on IceGuy, and then you ruined that nice town sense I had of you by changing gears so suddenly and now I'm conflicted. It's one thing to change your vote, and quite another to suddenly vote for the person your previous scumread has been pushing, with whom the arguments with were the basis of your original suspicion.

Where did I ever say that the IG/MoI arguments were the basis of my original suspicion vote on IG? Link please.

Also, I've had a null-leaning scum read on MoI since yesterday, so it's not like I've pulled the vote out of my arse. He's just done and said enough to be my top scum read.

Made it to page 25, will have to finish up when I finally get home as I'm about to get back on a train.

Thoughts so far:

-IceGuy still scum. What's really funny is that he's saying MoI "ramps up" a person's scumminess, which is totally true, but is NOT a scumtell...

It's actually a TOWNTELL for MoI.

And it's doubly funny because IceGuy also does this, but I've never observed him doing it as town.

Really? Cuz in a game I played with him where he was scum and I was town, he hella ramped up my scumminess and spent all of the first two pages pushing a policy lynch on me by telling everyone I was the worst player around and was power-lurking scum. Except he can't pull that in this game cuz I'm obv town playing completely against my lurk-scum meta.

Which thankfully Hoopla pointed out for everyone.

That's not my experience with him as scum. I'm sure he does it sometimes as scum, as well - my point was that it's not a scumtell.

Awesome! If you're sure he does it sometimes as scum, where is your justification for the underlined part in your post above?

The bolded really pings my scumdar. It has all the hallmarks of "teehee I killed Hoopla so nk analysis wouldn't implicate me! Now I can use her meta tell on me as legit and no one will question it!"

If my read on IceGuy wasn't so strong, I'd be voting you.

Thanks for misrepping my point.

[whispersilk]

Okay, can't do it, too tired, but I see at least one iceguy vote and I feel so lame without voting.

Vote: IceGuy

I tried and got like 2 pages in. Blegh. Finish tomorrow.

ICEguy is at L-1 with this vote. You should check the amount of votes on a person the next time you vote them.

You took the time to point this out but didn't bother to unvote. Why is that?

[whispersilk]

Well this is interesting. Amrun put IG, her top scum read at L-1, with no concern for the fact that she has yet to collect her tile for today.

[whispersilk]

^has=had

[whispersilk]

On an unrelated note: is anyone else having issues with bolding text, or reading text that is supposed to be bolded as normal?

For me, when using the bold tags, the text just previews as normal, and I'm seeing a bunch of votes, flips and collects showing up in normal font weight. This has only been happening today.

[whispersilk]

Example -

[whispersilk]

I'm semi VLA till tomorrow night. Will try to post later tonight.

[whispersilk]

That was my idea, and I think it probably would have broken the setup.

/sigh

Why Voided?

[whispersilk]

IceGuy (5) Voidedmafia, DCLXVI, MagnaofIllusion, Amrun, AurorusVox
MagnaofIllusion (4) whispersilk, IceGuy, Robocopter, LLD
vijay2vasandani (6) Robocopter87, AurorusVox, DCL, Voided, Amrun, MoI

Pere, Whisper and Vijay need to pipe up.

But so far we can get a compromise lynch on vijay but not on MoI or Ice.

Hence, as I said, Vijay is a suitable deadline wagon.

The fact that neither IG or MoI have been lynched today, and some random "compromise" wagon has appeared on vijay is really troubling me. I'd rather lynch Robo or LLD over vijay.

I am seriously going to laugh my arse off if both IG and MoI turn out to be scum.

[whispersilk]

MoI ffs, that is where my vote is right now. I have serious doubts about Voided, and tbh, if I had a vig shot to spare, I'd probably use it on him, so I guess I'd vote him too.

[whispersilk]

Yes, I am bothered MoI. Because if here were town like I think he is, then why didn't scum just push and lynch him? Probably because they are all already on his wagon, which means town is off his wagon and unwilling to vote him.

Why haven't you been lynched? Probably scum is too busy chillin' on IG's wagon to vote their buddy.

And IG has had a null-scum read on Voided since yesterday. Do you have a problem with his vote?

[whispersilk]

Yeah, you guys are probably scum together.

MoI's theatrics are just too funny for words.

[whispersilk]

Yeah, you guys are probably scum together.

MoI's theatrics are just too funny for words.

Well then vote for Iceguy and try your best to get me lynched tomorrow.

By the way ... where are your answers to my questions? I'm waiting.

I won't have enough time to answer anything at length until later tonight. I just popped in to say Bravo!!

[whispersilk]

Out of the two, I'd rather lynch IG. At least we'll learn something from his flip.

[whispersilk]

However, most of the people on his wagon are scummy as fuck

[whispersilk]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: IceGuy

[whispersilk]

I've had some shitty internet over the last few days. Catching up now.

[whispersilk]

Ok, sorry. I've had real problems with my computer for several days and I've only just got back online. Just posting quickly in my current games so I don't get replaced.

Will catch up and post once I've assessed which game needs the most attention.

[whispersilk]

Wow, way to self-hammer without checking who still had to claim letters. I haven't taken one yet either.

[whispersilk]

So scum are Amrun, MoI and either Vox or vijay.

I'm going with Amrun.

VOTE: Amrun

[whispersilk]

Flip: F1

[whispersilk]

@Hoopla

- so besides your lurker vote who is scumz?

Right now, I think most of the scumteam is within Voidedmafia, Amrun, you and DCLXVI.

I was initially liking the prospect of IceGuy scum, but I always tend to second guess players who adopt the abrasive, no-nonsense approach in their posts - increasingly I've noticed these sorts of players are town and when scum take on a more rounded tone. IceGuy is capable of being a level above and playing this way as scum too to attract town points (it obviously hasn't worked this game if this is the case), but I suspect the wagon on him is bogus and taking advantage of the tone he has adopted.

Coincidentally, you, Voided and Amrun make up the back end of the wagon, which roughly syncs with where I think a higher spread of scum are. I don't have any evidence against you (

Magna

) other than gut - I feel like you're just trying to say the right things, and leaving it there, rather than going beyond the surface. Players like you are very hard to read - if anything, the reason why I'm suspicious of you is because I have a lot of other town reads, but not one on you.

Totally blazed

[whispersilk]

Collect: A3

UNVOTE:

VOTE: MoI

[whispersilk]

What is there to say? I'm not confident that Robo is scum, and thinking about it even more, I'm not confident that vijay is either. Why would scum set up their own lynch the next day by claiming a guilty? It just seems like vijay was dumb and everyone is now squabbling over the ins and outs of his poor play.

Now MoI is suddenly attacking me. Why? Because my activity in the game has tapered off somewhat since the first two days. So what? No one is posting much at all. I'm fed up with this game and my motivation has gone down the toilet. Lurking and inactive town members doing stupid stuff have hurt this game from day 1. LLD, 2for1, DCL... all chronic lurkers throughout and all town. He also calls me scummy for quoting Hoopla from day 2? Big fucking deal. I quoted her because I have more faith in her experience than I do any town that are left in this game. I voted Amrun because of her placement on the wagons, and the fact she's lurked throughout the game. Whatever. I refuse to believe that every lurking player in this game is town. I think there are 2 taking an active role in day to day play and influencing the town, and then there is Amrun. She's been on the sidelines the entire game except to attack IG and jump on mislynch wagons. She contributes nothing, and the fact that other far more experienced players are letting this slide is crazy. I don't believe she is town, but no one seems to be interested in her at all. Surprise surprise. We should be lynching MoI and Amrum.

I feel like this is Ninja Mafia all over again, except this time I'm town and it's scum having a great time mind-fucking us all. Karma is a bitch.

[whispersilk]

That's not an appeal to you. I answered your question, then went on a rant aimed at the entire town in general. Hence why I said "we" should be lynching Amrun and MoI. Stop trying to paint me as scum.

[whispersilk]

We should have lynched MoI. He's setting up things up nicely to win the game for scum.

[whispersilk]

You realise that if vijay flips town, and you lynch me tomorrow based on guilty from Robo, then it's game over. gg scum.

[whispersilk]

Bah. I miscounted and thought there was 8 of us left.

[whispersilk]

God, I just went through the players in my head and miscounted. Why are you making a big deal out of a simple mistake?

[whispersilk]

Well I'm town, so scum is MoI, Amrun and Voided? For some reason I still don't think Robo is scum.