Judge, Jury, and Executioner - Over

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nocmen, I am not sure if this is intentional, but you are only supporting bottom-tier wagons. You took off the only vote on a likely lynch target. Are you intentionally wasting your vote? Why do you think Nero Cain is scummy?

It's been two days out of 21. I'm now forced to vote for the main wagons?

Vote: DoomYoshi, DoomYoshi, and DoomYoshi

[Mastermind of Sin]

By which I mean vote him twice b/c I forgot that was the max lol

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't understand why Thor got lynched. I'm willing to run up anyone who placed two votes on him to push that through.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Ser Panda

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yea, like I said, I don't understand why Thor got lynched. I ISO'd him and you're completely full of shit. Pretty happy with my votes on you right now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Nocmen you should vote DoomYoshi with me. Do it for great justice!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thank you for yet another voluminous contribution.

Oh, and for the record, this shit is ScumYoshi going out of his way to do anything he can to quiet and discredit dissenting opinions. There is no logical reason to make such a statement except as a mudslinging attempt at anyone who would dare question the Thor lynch. The game thread opened on Friday, and anyone who was paying even remote attention would know that I've been V/LA basically every weekend for the last two months, and that this one was no different. Even taking that general knowledge out of the equation, there was the fact that my account itself was labeled as V/LA for 3 days (handy, ain't it?), and the fact that despite having had no more than 20 minutes to spend on the site since coming back to town, I've still managed to post twice in this game. ScumYoshi's attack on me is a subtle OMGUS at best and at worst it's a deliberate attempt to imply that because I do not have as much time to spend spamming up this thread as everyone else that somehow my posts should be cast aside and disregarded simply because I kept them concise and to the point.

tldr - DoomYoshi is scum, let's lynch him and move on, please.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS - I appreciate the backup and buddying of the obv. town who got speed wagoned - that said, you're voting what appears to be the most likely town person who helped lynch me, so...whut? How is Ser Panda possibly worse than the others?

Of the 5 people who placed 2 votes on you, one of them is already lynched and I have two votes on another one. That leaves Quilford, Knight of Cydonia, and Ser Panda. KoC currently has no votes, so I flipped a coin between the other two. I'm more than willing to move my free vote to either of the others should there be interest, but really I'm mostly interested in lynching obvScumYoshi right now. Why did you choose to focus on my Ser Panda vote and not on the guy who I put 2 of my 3 votes on?

[Mastermind of Sin]

We can't lynch 2 more people, Thor. You and Arugula are already strung up, there's only one more lynch for today. I'd obviously prefer it to be DoomYoshi, but I figured I'd put my third vote on a possible alternative. I'm not really holding myself to it, though. That third vote is basically in flux atm.

I have no take on Shadow at this time.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I skimmed it. I don't recall seeing anything Shadow has said so far.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Don't you think that if you can't remember his posting it should be cause for concern?

Not really. I could say the same for you and about 10 other people in this thread.

That said, I just went back and looked at TheShadow's ISO. I think his claim is probably legit and I think it's hilariously stupid to want to lynch him Day 1 of all things.

Anyone who has read TheShadow's claim and thinks it's a good idea to kill him

today

is either scum or an idiot.

Take your pick.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@StrangerCoug: Upon review, I think I agree with Thor that Ser Panda is probably a raging idiot who doesn't know what he's doing, but he's town. (paraphrased) He quite clearly has no logical comprehension of anything Thor has done in this game so far, meta or otherwise. The fact that he's pushing it this vehemently and verbosely makes him more likely to just be retarded. Others on the Thor wagon are more likely to be scum in this case.

Unvote, Vote: Quilford

What do you think about ScumYoshi, SC?

Edit: Chill, SC. I can only get to things so fast.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Good man.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry.

Unvote: Ser Panda, Vote: Quilford

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote Count

TheShadow (10): DCLXVI, Axelrod, Gooner, Gooner, Nocmen, Axelrod, Thor665, Nero Cain, Sir Bastion, Nocmen

DoomYoshi (5): guille2015, DCLXVI, Mastermind of Sin, Mastermind of Sin, StrangerCoug
Sir Bastion (4): Teleporting Speed Hippos, vijay2vasandani, Gooner, Scott Brosius
guille2015 (4): Scott Brosius, Scott Brosius, Nero Cain, Nocmen
vijay2vasandani (3): Nero Cain, guille2015, Arugula
Ser Panda (3): StrangerCoug, StrangerCoug, Mastermind of Sin
Quilford (2): Sir Bastion, Sir Bastion
Nocmen (2): Knight of Cydonia, Thor665
Nero Cain (1): whispersilk
DCLXVI (1): whispersilk

The following players need to vote ScumYoshi:

whispersilk, Knight of Cydonia, Thor665, Sir Bastion, Nero Cain, guille2015, Arugula, Scott Brosius, Nocmen, Teleporting Speed Hippos, vijay2vasandani, Gooner

[Mastermind of Sin]

Deal.

[Mastermind of Sin]

[Mastermind of Sin]

I hope the hypocrisy of your last statement was on purpose, ScumYoshi. I really do hope that's the case.

"because I have reasons for them"[/b]

@Ser - I've admitted my vote wasn't RVS by your definition - the rest of my opinions hold solid.

@DoomYoshi - Why should I take the vote off even if it is RVS (depending on whose definition you use).

If I thought I should take them off then I wouldn't have cast them in the first place

- explain how that's scummy?

This is an absolutely ridiculous interpretation. No one in their right mind could possibly think that's what Thor was saying.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I love you Thor. Can we please be on the same team this time?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why do you think it's useless? And why do you think he'd make up a role like that as scum?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thor, from your posts it seems that you think his role is useless because even if he finds out who the executioner is there's no guarantee that the mafia chose one of their own that night. Is this correct?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I disagree. Why would we, on Day 1, eliminate what is potentially (for all we know) the only role that exists as a deterrent to all Executioners being scum?

Why the FUCK would you want that, Thor?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I haven't read his posts in depth, DCLXVI. I find absolutely no need to do so given the fact that his very role justifies the setup's existence and pulls it all together. What would be the point of having an Executioner who could never be identified be appointed by scum when you could just say that the scum get to execute/save a person of their choice and then send the other two to the judge and jury? The mere fact that the Executioner *could* be town justifies the existence of a role that forces the scum to think about whether they want to nominate one of their own to be Executioner. Otherwise it would be a no-brainer and the setup itself would be rather bland.

P-Edit: I don't think KoC knows what *unvote* means.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Honestly, I question whether you really understand how setup design works.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Either of you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So glad you aren't as dumb as I thought you were

[Mastermind of Sin]

You have 9 votes by my count, ScumYoshi.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think I am hammered....

I mean that Thor is already hammered.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Mastermind: What is your opinion of Shadow? Did anyone notice what Shadow just did?

My god. Have you even read the last two pages?

[Mastermind of Sin]

tell me exactly what things I've done wrong in this game.

I'd also like to point out, Thor does win a self-control star - huzzah Thor!

@Everyone - as amusing as it would be to lynch Shadow or yet another derp/scum off my wagon, how about we just speed lynch a lurker for lulz instead? There are a lot of sideline votes out there right now.

We only need 2 more votes to lynch ScumYoshi. Why are you not on board with this?

[Mastermind of Sin]

wtf shadow...we only need 2 more votes for ScumYoshi...he's the leading wagon and not even making an attempt to defend himself because he knows he's been caught. Get your votes back before some hopeless idiot (or scum) decides your self-vote is a scum claim and hammers.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hell of a coincidence, haha

[Mastermind of Sin]

BTW, I'm V/LA Friday through Monday.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And yet you still fail to acknowledge that the existence of TheShadow's role explains why the scum even need to choose in the first place.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If Shadow is telling the truth, you know how stupid it was to claim the role and give the mafia knowledge of that role? Whereas before, they would've been most likely chosen one of their members as the Exe, now it is pretty much WIFOM.

What could've actually been a a bit of a useful role is rendered useless with the mafia knowing of it's existence.

I didn't say TheShadow was playing optimally. Just that he's most likely town. If he was an incredibly skilled player who would think through his claim and not make that kind of mistake, chances are he also wouldn't have gotten run up that early on Day 1 either. The fact that he misplayed his claim like that doesn't make him more scummy...

[Mastermind of Sin]

No, that's completely wrong, Ser Panda. TheShadow's role makes him town because it *was* useful, and it makes the setup make sense. It has nothing to do with when he claimed it.

As far as the claim, many people are of different minds. In my personal opinion, PRs should avoid claiming whenever possible unless there is a direct benefit to the town in having them outed. However, some people believe that my policy is anti-town and think that PRs should claim whenever under pressure/threat of lynch. It's a delicate balance to which there is no exact answer. Arguing theory about what he *should* have done with his claim is rather pointless and has no bearing on his alignment or whether or not we should lynch him.

For that matter, if you're making an argument to lynch someone you ARE talking about their alignment. You can't argue for someone's lynch and then be like "I wasn't really talking about his alignment". If that's really the case then you are admitting to not caring whether or not TheShadow is town and just wanting to achieve his lynch regardless of his alignment. Which really doesn't reflect well on you at all...

[Mastermind of Sin]

If he was an incredibly skilled player who would think through his claim and not make that kind of mistake, chances are he also wouldn't have gotten run up that early on Day 1 either.

*cough*


Though I still haven't claimed, for whatever that means.

Well, I think you got run up by scum, so that's different. You weren't doing anything remotely scummy, it's just that everyone who voted you is either an idiot or scum. TheShadow, on the other hand, did things that I can see others perceiving as scummy, even though I disagree. He dug himself this hole, but anyone who is paying attention should be able to pretty clearly see he's not the lynch for today.

[Mastermind of Sin]

And yet you still fail to acknowledge that the existence of TheShadow's role explains why the scum even need to choose in the first place.

Do you need to choose when the answer is obvious?

Exactly. If there was no role that could discover who the executioner was, then there would be no point in introducing a mechanic where the scum have to choose an executioner in the first place. Thus, the existence of the executioner justifies the existence of TheShadow's role, which makes him town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Okay, MoS, given that you appear to be "clearing" Shadow based solely on this assumption, let me ask you a purely hypothetical question.

Hypothetically

, if there were another, and different role that had the ability to determine who the Executioner was in a given night, would this change your attitude about Shadow?

That would be tantamount to a counterclaim, so of course I'd reconsider to see who I'd believe at that point.

What reasons are you voting me for?

I don't buy that "Thor took set panda on a circular logic tour."

wow.

SC. wow.

Explain to me how you don't think that?

Because frankly you're looking pathetic to me right now.

you're using pathetic reasons to place your vote.

The fact that you actually think SC is wrong is what's really pathetic, Ser Panda. Stop being stupid and wise up. Thor didn't do anything scummy and you fucked up by being an idiot about it.

The decision whether to lynch him or not should be based on his play, not his claim, since the claim could easily be faked. Like you, I believe the claim sounds legit. But his play has been so awful that I can only conclude it is a (mod-provided?) fakeclaim. Anyway, we can demand the executioner claims each night as WC suggested.

I completely disagree. It's incredibly naive to think that claims should not be factored into the decision to lynch someone.

@MoS, here is another example of Shadow's scummy play. Fine, it's on DY who you think is scum, but JUST LIKE his Bastion vote, it's latching onto the next-biggest wagon other than himself. Both of his votes have been self-preservationist and have not shown any degree of reasoning.

Self-preservation is not a predominantly scum trait, it's actually relatively common for both alignments imo and really depends on the player. Shadow's voting pattern holds consistent with his claim timing as well, so I'm inclined to think that's part of his playstyle.

Hmm. But couldn't it be argued that "Execute" is simply the flavour for the scum's modified NK? I don't see why the opportunity to select town means that there has to be a role to pick up on potential false positives. The potential for town Executioners allows scum to WIFOM; if someone claims to be an Executioner, do we think they are town? Couldn't scum claim they were made Executioner for towncred? Couldn't scum make us lynch a claimed (town) Executioner because of those concerns? I don't think that the presence or otherwise of Shadow's role makes the Execute mechanic any more or less bland.

I don't see what you could possibly be trying to argue here. The executioner may be a replacement for the scum's NK (we won't know until the first night), but it's NOT an automatic kill. So I don't see at all why you're trying to claim that it's just flavor, when we CLEARLY know it's not.

Both judge and executioner can freely decide to convict or acquit

'nuff said.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Arugula, why are you not voting ScumYoshi?

WrathChild, why do you have no votes placed currently?

[Mastermind of Sin]

No one is arguing that his role isn't weak or that it's not weaker now that he's claimed. However, that doesn't mean it's not an excellent weak town power to throw in to flesh out the flavor of the game and make the mechanics make more sense together.

Also, your mathematics are bullshit because it fails to take into account the fact that the odds improve as the game goes on. There will be an executioner every day until we get down to 4 or less people, which means that in theory (taking pure odds as you said before), it could get up to 1 in 9 chance of a successful bloodhounding. Also, if I remember correctly, the defendents can't be chosen as executioners, so that's 3 people that TheShadow knows not to target to be the executioner, which brings his N1 odds to 1 in 289 (.35% pure random chance), and they only get better from there. That completely makes sense to me as a weak town role, actually...think about Doctors who have to choose the person the Mafia is killing in a regular game...with 21 people they have 20 people to choose from and let's say 16 possible targets (5 scum)...that's a 1 in 320 chance N1 (.31%), which is actually WORSE than TheShadow's odds in this game! So I really don't see how your statistical argument has ANYTHING to do with the likelihood that his role exists. Hell, if anything you've just proven that the Bloodhound is in line with normal weak power role odds that depend on a mafia target to match up with the person they targeted...this applies to protective roles, watchers, and more...

[Mastermind of Sin]

@KoC: Do you deny my math that TheShadow's role is just as statistically viable as a doctor or watcher? The ability itself is weaker (those are strong roles so obviously it would be), but statistically he has just as good of a chance to find the executioner.

I also disagree with your read of his latest post, because I've made posts like that all the time as town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You have a role like TheShadow's... but you think his role and yours can co-exist... *brain fries*

UNVOTE: DoomYoshi
UNVOTE: Ser Panda
UNVOTE: Ser Panda

I need time to think about the claim and its circumstances.

This. I'm incredibly leery about a claim that essentially counterclaims Shadow but also tries to couch itself so that if he dies and comes up town we don't automatically revenge lynch it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The shadow doesn't seem like he is a very strong player. I know a good player on my home site who likes to lurk until day 3 so that nobody kills him in the meantime and he can be alive near the end when it matters (and there is more info). I am not so sure shadow has the same day 3 and beyond quality. Even if he makes the decision totally randomly, and plays awful as many expect, I wouldn't support lynching someone who I think has a town PR. Even if some players do, he is unlikely to be killed overnight, so it would prob be a wasted lynch. The suicide and BWing me seems like badtown, not scum.

All of this is 100% correct and is why I don't give any credence to the people who actually think TheShadow's play itself is scummy. It's also thoughtful enough to make me rethink my DoomYoshi vote.

Unvote: DoomYoshi, Vote: Quilford

(joining my third vote and he still needs to stop lurking and contribute)

Unvote: DoomYoshi, Vote: Nocmen

(counterwagoning against TheShadow's wagon)

[Mastermind of Sin]

KoC, Axel was explicitly saying his role does NOT work like that...

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoS - actually - no, it isn't.

Huh?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Disagree.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You're welcome.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Or Quilford.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote: Quilford, Vote: Nocmen

[Mastermind of Sin]

V/LA for the weekend. Lynch Quilford or Nocmen idc.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why the fuck would anyone vote to kill Arugula? That was retarded...

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, I'm V/A until next Thursday.

[Mastermind of Sin]

There was no good case on Arugula to begin with. Anyone who thought he had a chance of being scum is officially an idiot.

Vote: WrathChild, WrathChild

[Mastermind of Sin]

Didn't occur to me. Kinda figured it was obvious at that point. The lynch on Thor seemed more scum-driven though, since town players are often suckers for VI lynches. After the fact, though, everyone and their mother should have known Arugula was town. Didn't think I needed to point it out.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Lurking is not a scumtell. Don't be stupid.

[Mastermind of Sin]

To you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

KoC's general hostility and referring to everyone as f****** ****** does not get him any points either. The burning rage seems a bit over the top.

This is retarded and should not be factored into your case.

[Mastermind of Sin]

To you.

Ahh ok then.

Well I never said you lurking was a scumtell. In fact i specified you never interacted with arugula's wagon specifically at any point during day 1, The most interaction you had with arugula was asking him to vote for yoshi. That's not lurking and I never insinuated it was.

to put simply is I'm wondering why now you feel the need to talk about the stupidity of the arugula wagon not once but twice today when you avoided it completely on day 1.

perhaps i thought you might want to discuss scum motivation behind the wagon but then you say

The lynch on Thor seemed more scum-driven though, since town players are often suckers for VI lynches.

So how influenced by scum do you think the arugula wagon is now? Do you think the jury vote was scum pushed as arugula suggested?

Where is the productive intent?

Actually I was talking about your insinuation that Arugula's lurking made him scummier. You were trying to justify your read from D1 with bullshit.

Who said I have productive intent? That would imply that I actually give a shit about doing more than saying how retarded you guys are.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm voting, aren't I?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Maybe it will make people stop repeating the same mistake again with KoC.

[Mastermind of Sin]

KoC's general hostility and referring to everyone as f****** ****** does not get him any points either. The burning rage seems a bit over the top.

This is retarded and should not be factored into your case.

[Mastermind of Sin]

TheShadow, why would you target DoomYoshi? Just curious.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't like either of the top two wagons. This is a counter vote.

Unvote: WrathChild, WrathChild, Vote: D3f3nd3r, D3f3nd3r

[Mastermind of Sin]

If the WC wagon goes anywhere I'll be back. Actually, I have a third vote so yea.

Vote: WrathChild

[Mastermind of Sin]

The V2V vote is also good.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DoomYoshi voting v2v for being a jester. *facepalm*

[Mastermind of Sin]

KoC: 2, WrathChild: 0

[Mastermind of Sin]

Axelrod, I would

love

for you to explain how my comment about Arugula comes from a scum motivation. This will be rich.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote: WrathChild, Vote: Nero Cain

[Mastermind of Sin]

WrathChild and Defender look especially bad from that transcript, but I don't know why WC would incriminate himself on purpose like this.

[Mastermind of Sin]

If the v2v wagon goes through and flips town there is no fucking way that its a pure town wagon.

That's really insightful considering that I've seen like one pure town on town wagon in my entire history on mafiascum (~140 games), and it was in a 50 player game where we only need 10 to lynch. (and there was only like 7 mafia).

Way to say something without really saying anything, Nero Cain.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Nero Cain: I did read the rest of your post. It was your closing argument that was the weakest link and betrayed that you didn't actually have any important conclusions to make after all that setup.

P-Edit @WrathChild: Because your arguments are (and were) terrible. No one in their right minds would think that was a legitimate argument for scum. Playing poorly != being scum, and in fact by the general site definition of "playing poorly", that person is much more likely to be town. That's a relatively simple conclusion to make, so I am having a hard time deciding if you are just stupid or were willfully ignorant.

[Mastermind of Sin]

are we just repeating the same discussion I had with MOS 5 pages ago?

Yea basically WrathChild scum felt like it was ok to ignore things going on in the thread until they directly threatened him. So now he's rehashing the exact same argument that just happened.

Also, of his 6 "arguments" against Arugula, the strongest one he has is #5, which he claims is his weakest. Lulz, so bad.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I've read through the thread and I think I have found a scum

MOS today comes into the thread saying that the Arugula lynch was stupid. However he did not mention anything like this yesterday. It seems to me like a scum who thought that he had held a position yesterday and then mistakenly said it in the thread. I also can find no town motivation for not saying that he disagreed with the Arugula wagon yesterday. It makes no sense to me.
VOTE: MOS
VOTE: MOS

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

UNVOTE: Nocmen
VOTE: Sir Bastion

His comments in the jury QT are scummy and

I thought we were not allowed copy/paste the qt here?

is not a town reaction to said QT being outed.

This is a null reaction at best. It's a clarification of the rules, and honestly I thought the same thing in my head when it was posted.

[Mastermind of Sin]

ITT WrathChild reveals that he actual thinks mafia is a game of logic arguments. That's just sad.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes it does. You thought the Arugula lynch was a poor one and you didn't state it yesterday. Therefore I'm thinking that you are a scum who thought that he held an opinion yesterday, knowing that Arugula was a poor lynch, when you didn't actually say so in the thread. The fact that you have failed to explain your actions from a townie perspective only heightens my suspicions.

If this was part of some grand plan to get me townie points I would have been all over that Arugula lynch D1.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yes it does. You thought the Arugula lynch was a poor one and you didn't state it yesterday. Therefore I'm thinking that you are a scum who thought that he held an opinion yesterday, knowing that Arugula was a poor lynch, when you didn't actually say so in the thread. The fact that you have failed to explain your actions from a townie perspective only heightens my suspicions.

If this was part of some grand plan to get me townie points I would have been all over that Arugula lynch D1.

Explain why you didn't say anything about the Arugula lynch yesterday.

I already did. Explain why you aren't paying attention.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You said it was because you didn't care about the town and you couldn't be bothered. If you want to avoid the lynch that isn't going to cut it.

Explain, as a townie, why you thought saying nothing would benefit the town?

As a townie, I don't expressly judge my actions to see if I think they benefit the town,

because I already know my alignment

. Trying to only take actions that "benefit the town" is a thought process for scum, not town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why are you asking me questions you already know the answer to? Do you think I'm suddenly going to say something different? See below, for the umpteenth time:

Didn't occur to me. Kinda figured it was obvious at that point. The lynch on Thor seemed more scum-driven though, since town players are often suckers for VI lynches. After the fact, though, everyone and their mother should have known Arugula was town. Didn't think I needed to point it out.

Has anyone noticed how Axelrod suddenly dropped off the face of the earth after being asked to justify his accusations?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why are you asking me questions you already know the answer to? Do you think I'm suddenly going to say something different? See below, for the umpteenth time:

Didn't occur to me. Kinda figured it was obvious at that point. The lynch on Thor seemed more scum-driven though, since town players are often suckers for VI lynches. After the fact, though, everyone and their mother should have known Arugula was town. Didn't think I needed to point it out.

Once again, I don't buy that. It clearly wasn't obvious to a lot of townies because we were telling people to execute Arugula on sight. Most people came to the consensus that he was the scummiest of the 3 candidates for death. Why did you not say anything when it was clear that a lot of people held a different opinion to you?

Probably because I was V/LA when the day ended. Maybe I'd have noticed/cared, dunno...

[Mastermind of Sin]

nope.

I think there's very little reason to bring this up unless you have a scum read on the Nocmen slot. Which you did right? When then get upset when I asked you why you were not voting nocmen?

I

had

a scum read on the Nocmen slot
The actions of the people who very quickly re-wagoned him without, for instance, considering the fact that the Judge must have had a damn good reason not to find him guilty changed that rapidly

I agree with this. However, I'd caution us against starting to make too many assumptions about what happened there. It could just be that the judge is someone who wasn't on the Nocmen wagon. I agree that he's not the play at all today, but we shouldn't let him slide just because the Judge pardoned him (unless we get more information from either of them on why it happened, of course, which isn't really necessary right now).

[Mastermind of Sin]

This stuff happened a long time before the day ended. I think.

When I went V/LA we didn't even know who the third candidate was going to be yet...

You think I am

ducking

you? That's absolutely hysterical. I made a rather obvious point which something like three other people have also made, and you dismissed it with "show me how that makes me scummy." Well, thanks but no thanks, I feel no need to try and convince you that you are scum.

I might, however, make a push to try and convince some

other

people if/when I get the time/energy. The idea that Argula was so obviously Town to you that you assumed he was so equally obviously Town to everyone else that you just didn't feel the need to say anything at all about him (either before he got run up, during said run up, or afterwards before the day ended) is ridiculous.

I'm not asking you to convince me, because I already know that you're wrong. However, just saying something is scummy repeatedly doesn't

make

it scummy, and if you can't come up with even a reasonable explanation that puts my actions behind a possible scum motive, then you need to shut the fuck up and stop making a fool out of yourself.

[Mastermind of Sin]

So in other words, in a 21 player game... let's assume 4/5 scum depending on what other PRs they have, shall we?
You basically think that you have picked out the entire scum team with 80-100% accuracy on Day 2... neither of your heads is that good, man. No-one on this site, or indeed any mafia player ever (who isn't a cheater on EpicMafia) is that good.

P-Edit: Sheeping you doesn't make him less useless, it makes you a double voter for however long he entertains that idea and him even more useless because we don't know what he's thinking more than usual

It's not impossible. I've picked out an entire scum team with 100% accuracy on Day 1...and been completely serious about it. That said, I rarely try to call out teams that early anymore because it *is* generally a sinkhole of tenuous connections.

However, I think Ser Panda has a decent list to work off of, although I still like my Nero Cain vote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Results:

Scummier than KoC

, less than D3fender and Shadow. FoS: SC

Emphasis mine.

Knight of Cydonia (5): WrathChild, WrathChild,

Nero Cain

, Axelrod,

Nero Cain

...

Unvote: Defender, Vote: Nero Cain

[Mastermind of Sin]

...why would you EVER self-vote?

[Mastermind of Sin]

All right, I don't have any votes out at the moment, so no need to unvote.

A few things that have stuck out to me in the last few pages:

Results:

Scummier than KoC

, less than D3fender and Shadow. FoS: SC

Emphasis mine.

Knight of Cydonia (5): WrathChild, WrathChild,

Nero Cain

, Axelrod,

Nero Cain

...

Unvote: Defender, Vote: Nero Cain

Did I miss something here? Nocman and Nero Cain are different people, right?

Whoops. Thanks for the catch.

Unvote: Nero Cain, Vote: Defender

This stuff happened a long time before the day ended. I think.

When I went V/LA we didn't even know who the third candidate was going to be yet...

Thor and Argula were hammered pretty early on, weren't they? Let me check. Yep, hammer was by #172, and you didn't announce your V/LA until post #438

How does that have anything to do with my statement that we had multiple candidates vying relatively equally for the third spot when I went V/LA?

[Mastermind of Sin]

See what you're doing here? This is even more proof that you're scum. It's the town thing to do to admit you need to go to the defendants table, instead, you're getting all pissy about it.

Here's a case for you:
1. You claimed you pardoned Thor
2. Town-Thor was killed
3. You are lying.

THAT'S A FUCKING CASE!

There is no POSSIBLE WAY to excuse this. You need to go to the defendants pool. You are lying scum at worst and a huge liability at best. TOWN-KoC would recognize this and turn himself in. You are SCUM-KoC and are fighting feverently to avoid the Town thing to do.

There is so much logic flowing through this stance and you tell ME I'm sitting there with my ears plugged?!

WrathChild, that makes ABSOLUTELY no sense whatsoever. Scum KoC would never have bothered claiming he was the executioner in the first place.

Also, town players should NEVER want themselves sent to the gallows, even if it means they might get pardoned. It's not at ALL protown to accept that you might die, when there are scum out there who could take your place and hopefully get executed.

WrathChild dies tomorrow. No exceptions.

Right now we need to finish off Nero Cain and Defender, though.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Note to all games: I'm probably not going to post much (if at all) for the next 24 hours or so. I need to step away from the site for a bit. I'll reevaluate when I get back.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unlikely.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Unvote: Defender, Unvote: Defender

Vote: Nero Cain

========[]

Unfortunately, I'm starting to think that WrathChild is too daft to be scum. He wouldn't be pushing such a terrible case THIS hard if he was scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

(modkilled) (10): Quilford, Quilford, DCLXVI, DCLXVI, Nocmen, Nero Cain, D3f3nd3r, Sir Bastion, (modkilled), (modkilled)

I just want to draw attention to the fact that there are only five people on this wagon. If

Shadow

Nero

does flip town, they need to have a long hard look at themselves.

Vote: N

[Mastermind of Sin]

(modkilled) (10): Quilford, Quilford, DCLXVI, DCLXVI, Nocmen, Nero Cain, D3f3nd3r, Sir Bastion, (modkilled), (modkilled)

I just want to draw attention to the fact that there are only six

five

people on this wagon. If

Shadow

Nero

does flip town, they need to have a long hard look at themselves.

Vote: N

Fixed. You're missing the point if THAT is what you choose to comment on.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Do you read the thread? That would help a lot.

Let me direct you to a few posts that might be a good explanation.

My post where I vote him. post 1198
TSH post 1180

Also this

[Mastermind of Sin]

Exactly my point.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wow you

are

dumb. Are you new or something?

You made a point out of saying that you thought the small numbers on the Nero wagon meant he *had* to have scum on it (which is kind of an absurd idea to begin with). You based this conclusion off the assumption that Nero was town and that his wagon did not have very many people on it. Yet you completely ignored the similarly-sized wagon that was on a player

who has already flipped town

. Shadow wasn't scum and he's been pretty obviously not scum for quite some time now (which I pointed out

at length

on Day 1), yet you made a specific point of white knighting Nero instead of using that same theory on the proven information we have to work with from our flip today.

That's not a protown thought process. At all.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Are you new or something?

That 2012 join date is hard to spot.

That sarcasm is hard to spot.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Someone hammer this fool. Let's rid ourselves of some scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

v2v, why would you not just hammer him?

[Mastermind of Sin]

He's calling it horrible because the player is bad and he's too dumb to be able to read bad players. Which kinda calls all the rest of his reads into question as well, doesn't it?

[Mastermind of Sin]

He's calling it horrible because the player is bad and he's too dumb to be able to read bad players. Which kinda calls all the rest of his reads into question as well, doesn't it?

Why are you answering Nero Cain's question for him?

Why can't you recognize an insult when you see one?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Hey, MASTERMIND OF SIN!

ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION

VOTE: Mastermind of Sin

Just because you put a question mark at the end doesn't mean there was actually a question there.

[Mastermind of Sin]

WrathChild (7): Knight of Cydonia, Knight of Cydonia, vijay2vasandani, N, DoomYoshi, StrangerCoug, vijay2vasandani

This wagon makes me REALLY reconsider how I feel about WrathChild...he's probably town now.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: Quilford, Quilford

V/LA until Tuesday evening.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote: StrangerCoug

[Mastermind of Sin]

MoS has two votes on Quilford, the main instigator of one half of the Coug case... but is happy to vote for Coug. Ooookay.

Quilford is responsible for the case on StrangerCoug?

VOTE: StrangerCoug
VOTE: StrangerCoug
VOTE: Sir Bastion

Was on the jury, more on that in a bit.

You might wanna check your facts bro.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That actually looks like weak bussing more than anything else, to be honest.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Do you actually understand how to make it look like you're trying to get someone lynched while actually making sure that no one gives your posts/cases any credit, KoC? Quilford is doing a pretty damn good job of it so far.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The point is, typing something in caps lock is not going to make it any more likely that people listen to you if they already think your contributions are worthless (which seems pretty typical of people's opinion of Quilford so far this game). It only makes it look like you tried harder to the observer who goes back and looks at a post in hindsight.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Such a good job of it that he got Coug lynched.
...
Waaaaait a minute.

Again, you're fucking crazy if you think Quilford was at all responsible for the SC lynch other than placing his two votes on him at the beginning of the day.

But seriously, playing the "do you even understand this" card might work on the new kids, MoS, but no dice here. The fact that you're trying to even use that against me when there was a point where I was one of the most prolific Mafia players on this site a couple of years ago is actually kind of hilarious.

So what you're saying here is that you *should* know better. Is this a scum claim?

Your only previous Coug interaction was an exchange over you insulting Nero, and... you agreeing with him early on in the game.
Care to explain how you went from almost completely ignoring Coug to suddenly being willing to hammer him? Incidentally, why exactly did this wagon go sour for you? You never actually explained and since you've hammered someone who was on it, now might be a good time.

Sheeping Ser Panda, obviously. Baaaaaaaaa.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why was SC hammered before anyone asked for a claim? I get that hammering here isn't a complete death sentence but that's risky move there MoS.

Because I don't really believe in claiming to the public when you can claim to the person making the decision and limit the information scum potentially have.

Edit: SC you dumbass.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry, but I'd already been hammered. I can't guarantee my survival after today, and town does not need to be in the dark after something like this.

If you died your role would have been revealed anyway...why give that information to scum to help them know where they want to send you?

[Mastermind of Sin]

It does if they find out someone has a power role and send them to the executioner. Claiming VT just helps them PoE on the other two candidates, so it's STILL not a good idea.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Someone hammer Quilford so I can lurk through the rest of the day.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Defender is still town.

DoomYoshi is still possible scum.

Gooner is probably scum.

WrathChild is probably town due to me having absolutely no faith in anyone who voted him today or the end of the day yesterday.

Axelrod needs to come through with Executioner info sooner rather than later.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Quilford's posts on page 63 makes him very obviously scum at this point. Anyone who acquits him is a fucking idiot.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why the fuck are we lynching Defender? He's so obviously VI.

DoomYoshi and Gooner are much better options. I'm going to make it a personal mission to go after anyone who is stupid enough to lynch Defender at this point. And nobody has the benefit of telling me that I should've pointed out the obvious before he got lynched (like they did with Arugula), because I've been saying this for a while now. Don't be an idiot, put up someone who actually has a chance of being scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't think I need to repeat that this setup was completely scum-sided to the point where we barely had a chance. That said, I'm curious. How did you guys figure out I was the judge, or was it just a lucky guess?

In other news, I'm an awesome judge for correctly pardoning town both times!

[Mastermind of Sin]

We were able to narrow it down by noting who was in the jury and ruling them out as per the game mechanics.

Yea I thought that would be the case:

You have been called upon to judge nobody.

Sleep tight!

Is it possible for the judge to ever become part of the jury?

No:

Defendants, Judge and Executioner are not called up for jury duty.

Gay. That'll make it really easy for scum to figure out my role when I never get called up.

I tried really hard to obfuscate my role so the scum couldn't guess it, but at the end of the day there was always PoE.

MoS is the Judge?!?

Dang, shoulda gone with six goons. Then they'd actually stand a chance.

<3. Too bad the setup made it really easy to find the Judge and I was unlucky enough to have that target on my back. :/

[Mastermind of Sin]

this is the post that gave you away to me

I actually thought that way before I ever saw my role...so it wasn't really a breadcrumb.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Especially since on multiple occasions other players (than myself) had mentioned that Nocmen must have been pardoned Day 1 because he claimed something to the judge...I don't see how my repeating the obvious conclusion from that made me the Judge other than by PoE lol

[Mastermind of Sin]

Gut read said they were town. Given how ridiculously easy it is to mislynch in mass quantities in this game, I felt that it was my duty as judge to reverse a decision if my gut said we'd made the wrong choice.

[Mastermind of Sin]

What might have been a better mechanic for the judge to have to select someone to be the executioner each night. (obviously not allowed to choose himself)

It takes the power out of mafia's hands, while not randomizing it or clearing a townsperson.

Letting the mafia choose the exec all the time was op for them.

Another option would be to have the mafia and the judge switch off each night in choosing the exec. Balance wise that might make it a little easier on the town.

I'm not so worried about the executioner bit...but the ability to kill the judge at any time while making it incredibly easy to figure out who the judge was thanks to the jury? That was OP.