Newbie 1289 - Game Over!

[Tierce]

This first post is mostly stolen from Thor665. It includes an intro about my role in the game, duties and initial game stage. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here); if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

Greetings,

I am Tierce and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is, first and foremost, that I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on MafiaScum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC.
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I

highly

recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of, as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory and glossary. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice:

1. Don't self vote. (There are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is.)
   
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
   
3. It's a game--have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with, generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do than a town player).


A final note about me, not directly related to the game: English is not my first language. I should be able to understand you just fine, but I want to write better. I would welcome notes/corrections on my spelling and grammar, either as they occur or at the end of the game. In the same manner, please try to be understanding if I ask you to clarify a sentence for me.

To confirm what RedRabbit said, yes, you can change your vote throughout the course of the Day as many times as you want, PaperSpirit. Until a majority is reached, votes can be shifted around.

The town needs to lynch. If we no lynch, we go into night with virtually no information, since we don't have any flips. The lynch is the main instrument of the town in rooting out scum, and it's the kill that is controlled mostly by the town--giving it up because we don't have information at the very start is a bad idea. Players' posts can be mined or information and studied for whether they are more likely to come from scum or town, and that is how town should apply their votes.

In short: don't trust PRs to find out the scum for you without any input, either here or in larger games. Lynching a townie on D1 is better for the town than no lynching, because if nothing else, it already reduces the pool of scum suspects by one and we have better odds tomorrow. Make sense?


Airick has the right idea, but I prefer this one:

VOTE: Sylvant


As a final note for now--one of the things that might come up during the game is ISO(lation). Reading a player (or players) in ISO means using the bottom-most dropdown menu under the Quick Reply box, where it says "Display posts by user:". If you select a certain user who has posted in this thread (up to three users, click the "[ + ]" sign for adding user2 and user3) and click Go, the thread is filtered down to the posts by that user(s). It's useful for looking at certain interactions without scrolling through the rest of the thread.

I have a concert tonight, will probably only be back tomorrow. Remember, if you have questions about theory, feel free to ask them in-thread and I will do my best to answer them. If you have questions pertaining to your role, it's best to ask the mod via PM.

[Tierce]

buldermar, why so much corner case theory talk and no vote?

[Tierce]

RVS is not a necessity; I prefer to do away with it ASAP and my ovyo is not random. However, you are implying that you have no viable reads yet. I find that hard to believe.

You are talking about extreme corner cases. I don't support a cop accepting the lynch of his confirmed innocents, for example, even to avoid a no-lynch. Self-hammering minutes before the deadline MAY be acceptable, but again, this is a very corner case and better approached if the situation ever rises up. It was quite obvious that I was not talking about those corner cases, and your focus on it instead of actual events in this game is off.

I have no issues with being corrected, and the fact that I have my own opinions in theory does not make them Absolute Truth, but your correction is reading as an avoidance of matters that actually have to do with the game to focus on a theory discussion that does not relate to the current events. That is scummy.

[Tierce]

Worst of the voters on someone who is obvtown.

ovyo, who is scum?

[Tierce]

Then why are you voting someone you do not have a scumread on?

[Tierce]

Don't do that.
That's the first step to passive lurking. The best way to get things going is jumping on the action--if everyone sits around not doing anything, we won't get good interactions that players can be held accountable fot.

Which of Deltabacon or vendetta21 looks worse to you? Why? Vote them.

[Tierce]

Worst of the voters on someone who is obvtown.

It's up to you to be proactive, not for me to indicate what I think Town would comment on.

You are discussing a theory point that you dismissed as a situation in which I wasn't intentionally leading anyone astray. If you can't use it for scumhunting (i.e. you're not finding scum motivation in doing so), what is the point in focusing on that instead of addressing the rest of the game? There

are

plenty of things you could be addressing already or showing your opinion about, yet you haven't yet done anything that reveals interest in finding scum.

There is a difference between content and arguing for argument's sake, and my impression is that you are more interested in correcting people than in figuring out the intent behind their words and moving on. That makes little sense from a Town perspective.

[Tierce]

I quoted that on my previous post. PaperSpirit is obvtown and I didn't like your slot's vote on him.

[Tierce]

Because PaperSpirit

is

obvtown.

No, I didn't provide any explanation why I think that. That was intentional, as I don't see any need to do so at the moment other than to explain the vote on Sylvant/ovyo. (He's not in any risk of being lynched, so I have better things to do than explain a townread.)

Why does the lack of explanation of a townread make me scum?

[Tierce]

No one is voting PaperSpirit

. Yes, I deliberately avoided explaining why I think he's Town. Get used to it, people don't always explain their reads. It's one thing to not explain a scumread, but I don't need to burn towntells right now to explain why PaperSpirit is obvtown. I'll be willing to explain if he ever gets in danger of being lynched or, failing that, at the end of the game. But get over yourself--you're not going to bully me into unnecessarily explaining a strong townread on page 3. Not backing my viewpoint in a way you can understand does not make me scum.

[Tierce]

Stop trying to twist my words. What I said is that the fact that no one is voting for PaperSpirit means I don't have to bother myself explaining why he is town. And this is not 'avoidance', this is outright refusal to explain the reason behind my townread on PaperSpirit because I don't see how it favors town to explain it at this moment.

'Awful arguments'? Really now? What of my 'arguments' don't you agree with?

I've made quite clear that my vote on Sylvant/ovyo is not random and why.

You are trying to misrepresent my position. One, I haven't addressed BT. Two, I pushed lightly on buldermar and ovyo. The latter because she joined the game with a passive position and I want to get a better read on her, the former because he's discussing theory instead of addressing the game itself.

I've made quite clear that these two are scumreads. Your attempts at misrepresentation and trying to paint me as scum, apparently without even reading my posts in depth (or you'd see my reads and understand how I'm forming them) or trying to understand my motivation, mean you join them in the scum bin.

I have reads on several players and they are pretty evident. You read like eager scum trying to push something, but anyone who cares to read my posts sees your words are empty and false.

[Tierce]

It has nothing to do with BT, ovyo.

buldermar: you are acting like that is all I'm doing, which is an invalid reduction of my actions. I'm trying to understand why you would keep yourself apart from the game and assume content will be generated regardless with a low signal:noise ratio, and I'm not just going to drop it and let you continue to do so--when scumhunting a player, I need to understand why they're doing what you're doing.
In clipping our posts the way you have, you are giving an incorrect representation of the matters addressed--for example, your lack of proactivity was something I brought up in Post 58.
Theory talk, by itself, isn't scummy. Theory talk

to the detriment of addressing the present game

is

scummy, because you are willingly avoiding discussing this game. In addition, you seem to expect someone with an initial scumread on you to jump up and read your other game(s). I read lots of other games, but I don't have neither the time nor the patience to meta everyone I have scumreads on, regardless of how many games they have. Those are unreasonable expectations to have of someone who isn't even voting you.

Airick: vendetta is null so far.

BT: reads, please?

[Tierce]

You're still the same slot. I don't particularly care if you can't justify your predecessor's actions, they don't stop being scummy/townie because the player was replaced--your alignment didn't change between replacements.

[Tierce]

I'm here. I'll address this game tonight, worry not.

[Tierce]

Nevermind, that shall happen tomorrow. Let's try to do it before nightfall at any rate.

[Tierce]

Tierce:

Thinks that PaperSpirit is obvtown based on four posts. The only thing that is revealed in these posts, besides that PaperSpirit is obv

new

, is that PaperSpirit thinks that a no lynch is preferable to town on D1, something that Tierce herself doesn't agree with. Bases her vote on Sylvant/Ovyo because of his vote for this "obvtown" while conviently ignoring Vendetta21's vote. The more obvious target on this basis should have been Vendetta21 afaics. Refusal/reluctance to remove the vote after Sylvant had been replaced is suspect as Ovyo can't know why Sylvant placed the vote. The only reason I can think of that this would be reasonable is because

if

Sylvant was scum, he gave it away by voting second on a newbie and tried to pass it off as random. That's a loose read imo. Unless she knows he was scum!

Tierce:

Thinks that PaperSpirit is obvtown based on four posts.

Is this something you find odd? I don't think it's difficult to see how she got to that conclusion.

I don't find it excessively odd, no. I can see how she might have come to that conclusion. That he's

obvious

town is a bit of a stretch I feel, but what perplexes me more is that she voted Sylvant and not Vendetta based on her assesment of PaperSpirit's townieness. I would think that Vendettas scumminess was more revealing based on some of his subsequent posts, the fact he voted second and that Sylvant's seemed random/jokey when Vendetta's was not at all random. Why not vote for Vendetta if the reason for voting Sylvant was because he voted PaperSpirit who is 'obviously town'? Is what I'm getting at here.

vendetta at least seemed to want to pressure PaperSpirit. A second vote on a townread doesn't mean that the player is scum, and I think Sylvant's seemingly random vote was worse because he ignored PaperSpirit's opinion on no-lynching and yet voted him anyway. In addition, your view on removing a vote because a slot has been replaced makes little sense. Your slot does not change alignment if you replace out, and while ovyo cannot explain Sylvant's actions, what makes me suspicious of ovyo continues being valid.

buldermar: you are acting like that is all I'm doing, which is an invalid reduction of my actions.

No, you're misinterpreting me. I claimed that you're equally responsible for the ongoing of our discussion.

The alternative is ignoring you, which I will not do--my goal is to get a read on you.

Reads, please. Your claim at 'communicating' with other players does not satisfy me, because you are still in this low signal:noise dance. There is little evidence that you are looking for scum as of this point.

Again, this is an allegation. I've not avoided discussing this game. I've responded to every question and commented on every post I found relevant to comment on. Once again, I encourage you to prove me wrong by providing me an example of something I missed (this is the 3rd time I request it btw).

And as I've said before, it's not up to me to guarantee you are proactive and discuss other things instead of just what is directed at you. I am under no obligation to point and say "discussing This and That would be town-action coming from you". I want to see you discussing This and That without being nudged in that direction. I want you to act in a way that isn't simply sitting on your comfort zone arguing theory and throwing buzzwords about.

In addition, you seem to expect someone with an initial scumread on you to jump up and read your other game(s).

Here you're utilizing a straw man tecnique. I assume it is based on this:

The same goes for your insistence that talking theory is a scumtell in conjunction with (I assume) the fact that you did not read my only other game.

I point out that your interpretation of me talking theory being a scumtell would be challenged by the fact that I talked theory in my other game where I was a cop. I never asked of you to read an entire game,

I found it peculiar and scummy that you wouldn't open the game and falsify the assumption that my theory talk is something unique for this game

.

You are saying that I would 'know' your theory talk isn't scummy if I bothered to look at your other game. This is false for several reasons: one, good scum play emulates town play. Two: while I read many other games, you cannot reasonably expect me to immediately read your other game and change my mind about you, especially since I'm not even voting you. The

bolded

(emphasis mine) is an outright lie. "Falsify the assumption that my theory talk is something unique for this game"? I did not do this. You are accusing me of something that never happened.

I read lots of other games, but I don't have neither the time nor the patience to meta everyone I have scumreads on, regardless of how many games they have. Those are unreasonable expectations to have of someone who isn't even voting you.

Once again, you're taking things out of context. I'm not expecting of everyone who votes me to read up on things. My point was made in lights of your claim that talking theory is a scumtell. In other words, it is due to the nature of your claim.

Though I don't find it scummy, your reasons are flawed as well. Townies aren't prompted to immediately read past games of people they're voting (although that would be nice), and her 'insistence' on her view of you doesn't strike me as scummy either. Don't forget to reply to this with your opinion on others.

As you probably can deduce from my response to Tierce, I have no such expectations.

Bzzt. You're backtracking. I made very clear that talking theory in detriment of the rest of the game (which you so 'nicely' dismissed as an "allegation") is scummy. You used the following as reasons to vote me:

[...]

It also doesn't add up why you'd think my behavior is scummy. Firstly, as BT already pointed out, theory talk is a null more often than not. Secondly, assuming that you actually do think I'm scum, I'd think you'd at least take the time reading my only other game. If you did so, you'd realize how flawed your reasoning is.

Repeatance of previously posed questions and made statements in conjunction with your claim that

I'm

responsible for the ongoing of this discussion appears scummy to me. The same goes for your insistence that talking theory is a scumtell in conjunction with (I assume) the fact that you did not read my only other game.

VOTE: Tierce

You used the fact that I did not meta you to see 'how wrong I am' as a justification to call me scum.

UNVOTE: ovyo
VOTE: buldermar

Let's see you eat rope.

Airick has the right idea, but I prefer this one:

VOTE: Sylvant

Here, you do not justify your vote with anything, you only state that it heightens the odds of hitting scum D2. But surely it's preferable to at least hunt for scum D1 rather than get someone out of the way?

What? No, I said that even mislynching town is better than no-lynch on D1. I did not imply, in any manner, that not hunting scum in D1 is a good idea. You are twisting my words.

You then proceed to say:

RVS is not a necessity; I prefer to do away with it ASAP and

my ovyo is not random.

But without explaining why it is not random. Is it because of the RVS

(That random vote that was pretty much his only contribution to the entire game)

? I'm pretty sure that nothing else could be derived from his other two posts that could possibly amount to anything, they were a request for help and a post to cancel the request because he figured it out. If he wasn't scummy, why did you vote him? To pressure him? If so, what about Oyvo is scummy? You said that I join them in the scum bin in your post 67, yet you say that you only push on Ovyo to get a better read on them. Is Ovyo scum until you get a better read on her? What about Sylvant's slot was scummy, and what about Ovyo has prompted you to label her as scum?

I've said, several times now, that Sylvant's vote was, in my opinion, the worst vote on a slot that I consider clearly town. THAT is what I consider scummy from the slot. Calling his vote 'RVS' does nothing for me--it was my best read at the time and the only way we get out of RVS is by analyzing so-called RVS behaviors.

I genuinely cannot see why you are being so obstructive to my probing, I'm asking you for your reads, but you're holding your cards close to your chest. I accept that you have a townread on Paper, I just don't see why? Has your position on him been reaffirmed or shaken by their most recent contribution however succinct it was? I need to know why you are doing what you are doing.

I've said that there is no town gain in revealing why I think PaperSpirit is obvtown. I don't have to appease you, and I'll be as obstrusive as I need to be for the sake of the Town, not for YOUR sake. I don't care how stubborn you are: pressuring me will not make me explain my read on PaperSpirit. If and when that read changes, you'll be he first to know. Until then, carry on.

Thats all I want to know: Why you have a townread on Paper (Other than not having any votes on him, which is an awful argument.) Why you have a scumread on Ovyo and if it has wavered any due to her recent posts.

"Not having votes on him" was never an argument for a townread on PaperSpirit, it was an argument for "he's not going to get lynched at this stage, I am not going to explain a townread since it's not necessary--due to the simple fact that he is in no danger of getting lynched". As BT said, that still stands, so you're not going to know the reason for that townread right now. Deal with it. My scumread on ovyo is due to that Sylvant vote on PaperSpirit, but it has been supplanted by my scumread on buldermar.

buldermar: You're doing a lot of empty posturing. What

were

your thoughts on Airick around Post 83-Post 86?

when scumhunting a player, I need to understand why they're doing what you're doing.

What I don't understand is how Tierce can say something like this, but then go about telling people point-blank the dispositions of others and expecting them to accept that. In this instance we are talking about telling DB that PaperSpirit is obvtown, and telling AirWick that I am null. I would like some clarification here.

I can be

somewhat

blunt. What clarification are you looking for?

Tierce's unwillingness to even contribute to other reads in any serious way serves only to reaffirm this.

How am I refusing to contribute to other reads? I've shared my opinions on players' alignments where I have them.

And while we're at that:
vendetta and BT are likely town.
PaperSpirit: Please vote someone. No Lynch will give us literally no information on this day phase. Who do you suspect? Vote them. Isn't there anything that is rubbing you the wrong way from anyone?
The pile of votes on vendetta should move to buldermar.

A few IC notes that I'd like to make at this point:

So to add pressure:

vote Tierce.

Pressure votes rarely work, and moreso when you deliberately call them pressure.

Obviously on day 1 the only confirmed town when you're town yourself

is

yourself. Hammering yourself (confirmed town lynch) is inferior to not hammering yourself (no lynch) in this setup.

This is actually statistically incorrect, as you can win without being alive. If you are the ONLY viable lynch with minutes to deadline and no one else is available to vote you, self-hammering may be a good practice to ensure the town has the information that yes, you ARE town. Flips are necessary to get better reads among the living players. Flips are important for scumhunting. That said, self-hammering is only a good idea in very extreme circumstances. We are not in such a situation. If we ever get to one while I'm alive, I'll wax as much theory as you want. Until then, I'm closing this line of discussion from my end.

I especially think the tone and message of Post 65 is uncalled for

I don't have any comfortable way of putting this: get used to it. Players in MS will not be kind when they are convinced you are scum or not pulling your weight. This is a community that is centered about people arguing with each other. I have a sweet and gentle side and I'm trying to contribute to an enjoyable experience for each of you, but I'm not here to coddle you: I'm here to teach you about some theory points and to show you what a typical MS game can be like. I don't resort to personal insults, but neither will I bow to your demands that I do something if I don't think it's beneficial to the town.
You need a tough skin to deal with some players here. It's not my intention to offend anyone. You're going to find players with big egos, players who are convinced their ridiculous views on theory are the One True Way of playing, players who are incredibly obvious scum even though they did not draw a scum PM. People will not easily bow to your demands if they are convinced it's detrimental to them or their faction; that's simply the nature of the community we are.
This message brought to you by someone who has had an amazing experience here so far. Don't expect coddling, don't expect kindness. People expect you to step up and pull your weight; accept this for what it is and don't be intimidated, it's just how we work.

No one is going to hammer.

They shouldn't, but you'd be surprised at how many times troll-hammers or mistaken hammers happen. Even when players really didn't mean to hammer, it happens.

[Tierce]

No need for that. My vote is already in the right place, but will be posting tonight after errands.

[Tierce]

Too many things at once, and the game with the longest deadline inevitably takes a hit, which is shameful when I'm ICing. Tomorrow without fault.

[Tierce]

Actually, that request isn't scummy at all. He is asking me to increase my activity level--how on earth does that read like scum to you, when a town IC that isn't pulling their full weight is one of the best gifts scum could hope for?

UNVOTE: buldermar

I have to reconsider things tonight, but rest assured, buldermar, I have full intentions of posting before bed (whenever that is >.>). I understand you're frustrated, but I'm not going to replace out, as I am capable and will be picking up my activity level with actual content.

[Tierce]

Lots of stuff snipped because it pertained to a scumread I'm no longer interested in.

[snip]

Reads, please. Your claim at 'communicating' with other players does not satisfy me, because you are still in this low signal:noise dance. There is little evidence that you are looking for scum as of this point.

You're asking me to comment or make reads on something picked at random that just-so-happens to fit your need. This is not going to happen - if you want something from me, ask for it. I've posted my opinion on various events throughout the game and, as opposed to you, actually not avoided answering questions. I don't give a flying fuck about the ratio of the content of my posts. If I had limited time to answer, I'd be more selective, but I don't have to when I have the time to answer anything I find remotedly relevant.

Again, this is an allegation. I've not avoided discussing this game. I've responded to every question and commented on every post I found relevant to comment on. Once again, I encourage you to prove me wrong by providing me an example of something I missed (this is the 3rd time I request it btw).

And as I've said before, it's not up to me to guarantee you are proactive and discuss other things instead of just what is directed at you. I am under no obligation to point and say "discussing This and That would be town-action coming from you". I want to see you discussing This and That without being nudged in that direction. I want you to act in a way that isn't simply sitting on your comfort zone arguing theory and throwing buzzwords about.

And as I'll say again, it's not my responsibility to guess what you want me to comment on. I've not "simply sat on my comfort zone arguing theory", as you put it. I've until recently discussed theory

while

responding to everything else I found relevant. Now I'm merely doing the latter.[/quote]I actually asked you for reads. I can be explicit and list the names of all players, but I wouldn't think that is necessary when I don't expect you to have reads on absolutely everyone. You claim not to avoid answering questions, but what you're doing is obtrusive all the same, buldermar--you're sticking to the letter of the law. Please don't do that. Pro-activeness is protown, as I'm sure you're aware, and having to cajole specific things out of certain players defeats a lot of the purpose in asking open-ended questions.

A few IC notes that I'd like to make at this point:

Obviously on day 1 the only confirmed town when you're town yourself

is

yourself. Hammering yourself (confirmed town lynch) is inferior to not hammering yourself (no lynch) in this setup.

This is actually statistically incorrect, as you can win without being alive. If you are the ONLY viable lynch with minutes to deadline and no one else is available to vote you, self-hammering may be a good practice to ensure the town has the information that yes, you ARE town. Flips are necessary to get better reads among the living players. Flips are important for scumhunting. That said, self-hammering is only a good idea in very extreme circumstances. We are not in such a situation. If we ever get to one while I'm alive, I'll wax as much theory as you want. Until then, I'm closing this line of discussion from my end.

I think this is low of you, Tierce. I say that out of the context of this game, I genuinely think this is abusing your role as an IC. One thing is your opinion of theory talk

within

the frame of the game, but to constantly be dissenting theory talk and then throw

this

from the position of an IC? And to make matters worse, you're immediately "closing this line of discussion"? Really? It can be proven mathematically that self-hammering is suboptimal in this setup for

anyones

alignment at the equilibrium state of the game, but you're effectively saying "I'm IC so I can state my opinion without it being classified as theory-talk

ingame

, but you can't answer me because

that would be ingame theory talk thus scummy

. On the other hand, if I don't answer, people will see this as weakness and perhaps conclude that you voting me must be on reasonable grounds. This means that you're effectively giving yourself an unfair advantage ingame by abusing your role as an IC.

That is certainly not what I'm doing. My job as an IC means that I will not lie about theory. However, when discussing it gets to a level of pointlessness, it's no longer about a theory point that is

relevant to the present context of the game

; it becomes a discussion fit for the Mafia Discussion forum. I have already given my IC input on the matter and, as a player, continuing that line of discussion is not beneficial for the town. So: my IC job is done, and my player job is not to continue it from my end; I can't keep you from talking about it, but I can choose not to respond (which is what I meant from "my end" in the post in question). There is no advantage-taking anywhere and I feel somewhat insulted that you would think so. Heck, if you think I am abusing my position, PM izak and/or singersigner, but I will not continuing debating a theory point that I see as irrelevant in the present game state.

I especially think the tone and message of Post 65 is uncalled for

I don't have any comfortable way of putting this: get used to it. Players in MS will not be kind when they are convinced you are scum or not pulling your weight. This is a community that is centered about people arguing with each other. I have a sweet and gentle side and I'm trying to contribute to an enjoyable experience for each of you, but I'm not here to coddle you: I'm here to teach you about some theory points and to show you what a typical MS game can be like. I don't resort to personal insults, but neither will I bow to your demands that I do something if I don't think it's beneficial to the town.
You need a tough skin to deal with some players here. It's not my intention to offend anyone. You're going to find players with big egos, players who are convinced their ridiculous views on theory are the One True Way of playing, players who are incredibly obvious scum even though they did not draw a scum PM. People will not easily bow to your demands if they are convinced it's detrimental to them or their faction; that's simply the nature of the community we are.
This message brought to you by someone who has had an amazing experience here so far. Don't expect coddling, don't expect kindness. People expect you to step up and pull your weight; accept this for what it is and don't be intimidated, it's just how we work.

I'm used to it, but I reserve my opinion. This applies to your current post as well where you're supposedly responding from the role of an IC. Stating "get used to it" is hardly conducive to a healthy learning environment. I'm not asking for everyone to be wonderful and kind to one another, nor am I asking for you to contribute to an enjoyable experience for each of us. As human beings, personal insults hurt whether they are within the context of a game or not. When someone asks you why you refrain from explaining a town read, stating "get over yourself" is just one of many ways to go about explaining it, and I thought that particular way of explaining it was uncalled for. I'm not saying that in the context of your role as IC btw. I think you got the wrong impression of what I called you out for.

I already explained, multiple times IIRC, why I would rather not explain that townread. It gets to a point in which the only thing I can do is shrug and say "tough luck, you're not going to get it from me". I know the concept of towntells is something important in the context of the game, and I am not hiding the reasoning behind this one to spite you nor to show you that people sometimes hide the reasons for their reads (which they do), as I will explain it post-game. I'm hiding that reasoning because, as I have said, revealing it at this stage is not, in my opinion, beneficial for town and I, like many other players you will find in MS, will not be easily intimidated into taking an action that I consider unhelpful for town (i.e. reveal the reasoning for my townread on PaperSpirit).

[Tierce]

This game needs so much more activity. If no-one contributes, then scum can safely hide amongst the lurkers, which sucks because then we're scuppered.

Basically guys, start posting.

"People need to post!

*crickets*

Really, people need to post!"

Compare to buldermar and Natural_river, who are actually trying to generate content even as they cajole others to post. This is grandstanding scum trying to look like he's doing something to improve the activity, when in truth he did nothing with that post.

VOTE: Deltabacon

Hi scum.

[Tierce]

To be honest, I can't blame him for wanting to find out, because I think everyone is pretty curious... just because you mention it's in the best interest for the town if you don't explain why, is not going to get people to trust your thought on this.

I don't necessarily expect people to trust me on this--but the fact is that we are talking about a slot (PaperSpirit/fish-riding-a-bike-2000) which had no wagon on it, therefore there was no need for me to explain that read; Deltabacon's insistence that I do so and that behaving otherwise was scummy is not a protown mindset. Curiosity is one thing, pushing my choice as scummy is quite another.

That, and the fact that you have the tendency not to explain hardly any of your actions, I can see that you are a more experienced player, maybe you know more about the
game than I do, but this alone is not going to convince me fully that you are indeed town, you might as easily be an experienced mafia.

?
Really? I thought I was explaining myself quite thoroughly so far when it comes to scumreads. It could be my perception, though--I don't play as many newbie games anymore and I'm not used to explaining my thought process every step of the way. Where did I not explain myself that you would like more detail about?

[Tierce]

Hey,Natural_river--quick post.

Please don't mention other ongoing games.

This is a forum rule and you can be hewed out for it--and rightfully so, as while some references can be harmless enough, drawing a line as to what can influence other games is a very subjective matter.

[Tierce]

So a call for activity, at a point when I was contributing more than Buldermar (who was still spewing theory out his nostrils at that point) makes me odds-on scum?

A jokepost as the first post of RVS makes me odds-on scum? That would make me laugh if it wasn't so tragic. Tierce, having been the subject of much of my discussion at that point, do you say I was contributing less than Buldermar, who was talking theory? Is me pushing on you not contributing in any way? No?

This

is deflection. And no, you weren't contributing that much more: you voted me because I wasn't explaining a read, and stuck to that vote. That is all you did, and painting it as if you were contributing more than that is a lie. You wanted to engage me, sure, but what about the other players in the game? That call for activity came at a time in which you weren't addressing anyone else and didn't bother to do so with what info you had.

Consider the case of the informed minority. Tierce knew that Paperspirit's slot was town, because she's scum. How, in any other way, could she know he was 'obvtown'?

You have to ask yourself if you're following the right person, ladies and gentlemen, because Tierce's unwillingness to co-operate with such a menial and unharmful issue shows that she clearly did not deduce Paper's 'obvtowniness' from tells, otherwise as an IC she surely would have put forward methods to help people learn.

No, I surmise that Tierce is scum, who slipped in letting it loose that Paper was (from her informed viewpoint) town.

This is nonsense. I don't

know

that the slot is town. But I have enough experience with players like him (I have 32 finished games on site) to be able to point out strong townreads at the start of a game. And

this

is blatant posturing. "Menial and unharmful issue"? When I've said that explaining it

during the game

is probably harmful to the Town?
(Also, don't expect scum to 'slip' in such way. It doesn't really happen unless we're talking about a really really really bad scum player.)

Furthermore, her case on me is derived from a single post from half the game ago, when I was calling for activity. Grandstanding? No, when I was able to keep up with the forums on an hourly basis at that time, and there was numerous hours between posts, I felt fully justified in putting out a standalone post calling for more activity. I don't see that as being any different than Buldermar requesting prods, except I was being more general. This makes me scum? Yeah, no. No it doesn't.

But you weren't posting at the time.

You chose to ignore the other players and focus solely on me, and instead of producing content with what was already posted (I have no idea about your reads on

anyone

but me), you just sat and complained about activity in general. Being "half the game ago" in no way changes the attitude/motivation behind that post; your alignment hasn't changed since, and if anything it has only become clearer that you aren't addressing the game at large.

Tierce could be scum and the informed minority, but there is another option. Her case for not telling what her read was specifically had little to do with what the read was or how she got it and more to do with the fact that she would not be bullied into giving somebody what they want just because they asked for it imo. I think this is the right move and goes some way to me trusting Tierce. It's actually why I called her on the exact same thing earlier. To see if she'd cave.

Mind you, obscuring info for the sake of obscuring info isn't good play. But obscuring info when you're convinced it's the right play to do

for the sake of the town

can be good play. And no, I don't have any special need to show I won't be bullied into explaining some reads, that was just a notice that you will get players doing so and it's not a scum-tell. In this case, it

does

have to do with the read and gamestate--there's no need for me to explain a read on a non-threatened player

and

explaining that read can be rather harmful to Town. I'd rather let scum wonder what is going on without any real certainty.

[Tierce]

I don't think scum partners are allowed conversation until night 1, but I'm not entirely sure. Tierce, can you confirm/disconfirm?

The scumteam is usually allowed to talk in their quicktopic during the confirmation phase, but not during Day 1.

Naturel_river has a point actually, why is it that you're so certain of paperspirit's innocents? it is my slot i know, but i'm just wondering how you could be so certain of you're conclusion without having to cheat the game.

...not this again. Go read my posts, I've explained why I'd rather not explain this. I am not going to explain this read when there is no threat to you. As for cheating, rest assured that my moral code is in good health and I would never do such a thing.

[Tierce]

It's not time at all. I'm not being voted, and neither is fish-riding-a-bike-2000--neither of our positions is an incentive to clear up that townread. Why is that one townread more important than the others I have given out?

[Tierce]

Partially because of the way I scumhunt. I don't just look for behavior I see as coming from scum, I look for behavior I see as coming from town

over

what would be beneficial for those players if they were scum. Therefore, townreads are something important; while you shouldn't anchor yourself to your process of elimination, having a decent number of players you consider town can help narrow down the field of where to look for scum. As with scumhunting, townhunting is fallible, but hey, that's why no one has 100% records after a certain number of games.

I believe what you are wondering about is

why

I stated this townread if I had no intent in explaining it. I only called out my townread on PaperSpirit in reply to the questioning of my initial vote for Sylvant/ovyo/MrJamesWatson:

[Sylvant]

is the worst of the voters on someone who is obvtown

[PaperSpirit]

.

I was explaining a vote, and would otherwise have no interest in showing this townread that early.

What I keep wondering about is why is this townread more important in several players' minds than the others I have given since. Is it because it was an early one? Was it because of the wording 'obvtown'? Feel free to go through my finished games; I defend townreads to the hilt, occasionally explain them, occasionally don't--and what is important here is that I said PaperSpirit was town

because I was asked about a scumread

.

[Tierce]

You ask why it's not enough for me? Because it's screaming scumhood at me, and

Tierce's unwillingness to even contribute to other reads in any serious way serves only to reaffirm this

. I want to know why, and my vote will be stationary until I find out.

Wheeeee.

This

is a lie, and it gets better:

Does anyone know what reads Deltabacon has beyond me?
No?
Me neither.

Let's string him up.

[Tierce]

Hey buldermar--you should be voting Deltabacon. We can get his buddy tomorrow. I'm a huge not-a-fan of how Natural_river jumped off Deltabacon to make a larger wagon on you just now, and how he's trying to paint a personality quirk/posting style as something bad, so cooperate with me now and we can get two birds with

one stone

two nooses.

And yes, I've said that if the danger of not outing the reason for my townread on the fish-riding-a-bike-2000 outweighs the benefits of

not

revealing it (i.e. getting a townie in danger of being lynched--me or him), I will obviously explain it. No, it's not a made-up read, I have no reasons to lie as town and I don't do silly gambits like that to spark discussion just to smother it afterwards by saying I wouldn't want it discussed.

[Tierce]

That's a rather disgusting L-1 vote. MrJamesWatson, what are your reads on the other players?

[Tierce]

Funny. You seem to have ignored this altogether:

That, and the fact that you have the tendency not to explain hardly any of your actions, I can see that you are a more experienced player, maybe you know more about the game than I do, but this alone is not going to convince me fully that you are indeed town, you might as easily be an experienced mafia.

?
Really? I thought I was explaining myself quite thoroughly so far when it comes to scumreads. It could be my perception, though--I don't play as many newbie games anymore and I'm not used to explaining my thought process every step of the way. Where did I not explain myself that you would like more detail about?

My reads are explained quite thoroughly, and you are just throwing some vagueness as to how they aren't without being specific. You're trying to discredit me without showing in concrete why you think I'm wrong. That has scummy motivation behind it, because you're not really trying to figure out what I'm doing, just removing my credibility when you have no evidence that I'm wrong.

[Tierce]

I understand that one, and I wondered about it too.

@izak, can you please check buldermar's 235?

Also,

BULDERMAR IS AT L-1. ANY HAMMER WITHOUT GETTING A CLAIM BEFOREHAND WILL BE CONSIDERED A SCUMCLAIM.

[Tierce]

So. We're lynching Deltabacon, and if he flips scum, tomorrow we're going for one of Cheery Dog/Leonshade. Should

that

one flip town, we lynch the other. Sorry for that, replacement folks--it's not your fault at all, but it's pretty evident that one of you is scum and it's not JasonWazza.

Let's make this as painless as possible. This is pretty much assured a town win, so we should get that out of the way and on to other games.

[Tierce]

If Deltabacon flips scum and I die tonight, you lynch Cheery Dog and Leonshade until one of them flips scum. No questions asked, just do it. I guarantee that Deltabacon's scum flip will turn this into a town victory if you go along with this.

[Tierce]

Honestly I don't really suggest bothering to read the game, no. It feels somewhat dirty, but it's not the town's fault. Choo choo auto-pilot.

Please don't ask me to explain this situation, as I don't want to taint the game further. I'll explain my take on things in full after the game is over, but I would really not add to the mess right now. In addition, I'd like to state that I have no information the players currently in the game don't have as well, this is straight deduction work--I wouldn't stay in the game if I felt I had compromised information in comparison with everyone else.

[Tierce]

Oh, that one. I might as well out it now since you might actually get in danger of getting lynched if I die tonight and town derps a bit.

They've been asking me to explain this since ...8 pages ago? That sounds about right. Might as well since etc.

You are PaperSpirit's slot. That slot obvtowned by voting No Lynch at the start of D1. I have seen several newbie players doing that, and never,

ever

have I seen newbie scum do that. It's a fantastic paralyzed-newbtown tell. It was awesome because it kept me from reading most of what fish-riding-a-bike-2000 posted, and I can't say I feel I missed something.

[Tierce]

It's not your (or anyone's here) fault that those slots effed up. Feel free to read, I'm just saying there's not much point in

bothering

to read the game in full because this is very likely a town win should we lynch who I've said. (Either way, it's mostly me and buldermar going back and forth and we're now obvtown, sooo.)

Deltabacon has merrily misrepresented me on a few points by twisting my words. Then we have stuff like the fact that he has no visible reads at all except for me, when he said that having no reads was scummy behavior; he has spent all his time going against me, mostly for me refusing to explain that PaperSpirit (you) obvtown read, when I had repeatedly explained that outing that info could harm town (and now that I am getting into detail, I didn't want to explain that strong townread because of the following: I didn't want anyone else taking advantage by faking newbie behavior, which is relatively easy to do early in the game; people are out of excuses to do so with the present game state). Go read Post 208 and see how in Post 203 he complains about me taking "a single post from half the game ago" to call him scum. This is especially glaring when

he hadn't posted since

. It's whining scum.

In addition, once the slot found itself wagoned, Natural_river (Cheery Dog), who was until then just fine with the wagon, jumped off, jumped onto buldermar, and dragged MrJamesWatson (Leonshade) along, turning this situation:

Deltabacon (3) - Tierce, fish-riding-a-bike-2000, Natural_river
buldermar (2) - vendetta21, Airick10
vendetta21 (2) - ovyo, buldermar
Tierce (1) - Deltabacon
ovyo (1) - RedRabbit

into this:

buldermar (4) - vendetta21, Airick10, Natural_river, MrJamesWatson
Deltabacon (2) - Tierce, fish-riding-a-bike-2000
vendetta21 (1) - buldermar
Tierce (1) - Deltabacon
MrJamesWatson (1) - RedRabbit

If you don't think this is scum jumping on a counterwagon do defend his buddy, I have a bridge to sell you.

You're town, there's no frigging way I am scum with any of them otherwise this would be the stupidest, most contrived bus ever, buldermar is three levels of obvtown with that vote shift, Airick, RedRabbit and vendetta are probtown. Engage autopilot, sit back, wait for scum flips.

[Tierce]

Loving the crickets from both Leonshade and Cheery Dog. Especially that one from Leonshade. If you only read what's posted after you replaced in and you were Town, you might not be voting yet, sure, but how come that would not convince you of the plan when logically the scum in the plan are Deltabacon and Cheery Dog? Get to bussing or lynching scum already.

PEdit: You might as well claim while you are at it.

[Tierce]

Alrighty, I'm home and ready to go.

I have experimented with myself this game, potentially damaging town in the process. I'm aware that, from games from here and on other sites, I cannot play as a town-reading townie. I can never do it. I figured that instead of constantly searching for scum by being all 'conventional' about it, I would instead see if I could pull off a scumhunt on my own terms, which I believe has worked in some respects, utterly and completely failed in others.

By placing myself in the firing line (by tunnelling on Tierce), I have made myself out to be an erratic townie, who is potentially a strong distraction for scum. I believe that rather than go for an easy lynch and not have insurance D2, scum would rally to me and defend me. Whilst I haven't seen any glaring examples of what could be considered a strong chainsaw defense, I can see why I am an obvious lynch, and why scum, rather than hammering, are looking for me to lynch buldermar in an effort to preserve my own life in the game, making me an even more ideal lynch candidate tommorow. I will do no such thing. I believe, with a fairly high degree of certainty, that both scum are hiding in the buldermar train, and that all the players on my train are townies.

My strong townreads so far include Tierce, Jason and buldermar, and the other's are either null or leaning scum. In an ideal world, it'd be a smaller list to have to draw up, to make the potential probability of hitting scum higher, but I am looking at vendetta21, Airick10, Cheery Dog and Leonshade for my potential scum. The mafia are within these 4 people, from my point of view.

I believe that the lack of desire to lynch yet, shown by both Leonshade and Cheery Dog are the largest indicators of scum I have seen thus far in the game, and I am inclined to pursue a lynch on one of them today. A lynch on me will flip Vanilla Townie, so no great loss, however I think it would be a travesty to not get scum at this stage of the game, in such certain circumstances.

I will happily answer any doubts you have about this post, please, feel free to ask questions at your leisure. I have about 3-4 hours left today to clarify anything, otherwise it'll be about 24 hours from now that I'll be able to post again.

UNVOTE: Tierce
VOTE: Leonshade

You know why I'm not buying this? Because even ailing town who is trying to do the "reactions, lol" of the "easy mislynch play" (most of them are actually scum) show a sign here and there of

trying

. Before the above post, you were not doing so, and I find it very ill-timed that you would "come clean" in that post and not on the one before it, where you were essentially whining at me and there was no actual sign of scumhunting.

In addition, you do realize that "Cheery Dog and Leonshade show no desire to lynch" is actually the only scumhunting commentary you have made about people the game aside for those about me? I would have expected town in this position to actually show what work they have been performing so far (like a player who is playing scummier than usual to avoid a night-kill because he is a power role, coming clean and playing normally after he claims his role).

In addition, and as an IC note, if you really are town: don't do that. Don't play for the "easy mislynch". You lied and misrepresented me at several points. You do not have a reputation on the site, in which case it might be possible to turn such a wagon around and dissect it for scum/town reads. The reason your idea doesn't work is that if you are playing scummy, town will jump on you, and scum have excellent reasons to jump on you. You cannot really distinguish between those without a lot more experience.
Essentially, this:

this looks like scum trying to weasel their way out of a lynch. As you must have realised would happen when you came up with the ploy.

If you were trying to act so scummy in order to see if scum wouldn't jump on your wagon so that they could keep you around as a diversion, then you forgot to take into account that scum only make up 2 of 9 players. The other 7 are going to want to lynch you for being scummy and scum will realise that in order to look non-scummy they should jump in too.

I like to look for scum one by one. I do not like to group them together, because scum typically won't like to be seen tied to each other. It's too obvious. If buldermar is lynched, you are correct in saying at least one of those who votes buldermar is indeed scum (majority vote).

Which is why I don't think Natural_river/Cheery Dog and MrJamesWatson/Leonshade are

both

scum. But jumping off Deltabacon's wagon and trying to push buldermar's wagon makes perfect sense if one is paired with Deltabacon and the player did not want to bus on D1.
Relationship tells on D1 are hard to analyze, and you should very rarely use them to judge a lynch's full worth. However, don't shy away from noting them down (not necessarily in the thread), because what feels like town/town, scum/town and scum/scum interactions on D1 may become important for analyzing the game later once there are flips and known alignments.

[Tierce]

But jumping off Deltabacon's wagon and trying to push buldermar's wagon makes perfect sense if one is paired with Deltabacon and

the player did not want to bus on D1

.

Noob question Tierce; What does the bolded bit mean?

"Bussing" or "to bus" is how we mangle the concept "throwing under the bus", which in this case refers to participating actively in the lynch of your own scumbuddy to give you a measure of town points. Scum know that if they defend each other throughout the game they will attract too much attention and, should one be lynched, the other is a visible culprit; that's why they will distance (express scumreads about the other one) and bus. Bussing is the extreme version of distancing, in which you actually get your partner(s) lynched to make it look like you are town.

Sometimes it work, sometimes it doesn't. It's a kind of interaction to watch for, though nowadays people are aware that scum can and will bus, so it is always a bit of a wildcard to see how the interactions make sense.

[Tierce]

That was the kind of post I was trying to avoid. It's not your fault, and no one (mod included) will blame you for posting it, as you are only using information that is freely available to you. However, I would really not like this discussion to take place during the game since it affects the experience you should be getting. I am open to discuss it with everyone post-game (and I believe we will be informed of what happened to some measure or another), but during the game it becomes somewhat of a distraction. This is not how games are meant to go, and I am so sorry for all of you, for izak and for singersigner. People breaking the rules is never fun, and I'd hate to be in Cheery Dog/Leonshade's position because

I

know how that feels--in one of izak's previous games, a player broke the rules and pretty much outed me as scum. Anyway, that's for later.

The way that Natural_river-Cheery Dog jumped off Deltabacon feels like someone trying to save a buddy, which is why I believe they (or, more unlikely but possible, MrJamesWatson-Leonshade/Deltabacon) are scumbuddies. I find it very unlikely that Natural_river would jump off from a L-2 wagon to build a L-1 wagon on you (buldermar) if Deltabacon was town, because he could have created a L-1 wagon on Deltabacon with only half the effort: by simply having MrJamesWatson vote Deltabacon. That would mean there was a L-1 (on Deltabacon) AND a L-3 (on buldermar) wagon on town (in this hypothesis, Deltabacon AND buldermar are both town). It is simply a matter of effort applied to it--why bother to move two votes to create the same situation (or equivalent, since the wagons are both on town in this hypothesis) when you can create it with a single vote move? It's far more elaborate than necessary when you are already juggling two accounts.

tl;dr: For both buldermar and Deltabacon to be town, the Natural_river/MrJamesWatson accounts' holder would be taking several steps to create a situation he could create with only one step. It makes far more sense, from a practical perspective, if he is protecting a buddy, and that buddy can only logically be the wagon he jumps off of to wagon buldermar: and that is Deltabacon.


In the unlikely situation that Deltabacon flips Town, I'd rather explain my plan Tomorrow, not Today. (If I die, lynch one of Cheery Dog/Leonshade; should that one flip Town, lynch the other on D3; then you're on your own to find the last scum.)

[Tierce]

Honestly, if there's something I'm relieved about in this game, it's that the two of you (Cheery Dog and Leonshade) already have experience and know games don't often turn out like this. I would be very sad if replacing into a game in this situation was your first experience in MS (and for the others, seriously, rest assured this is a huge abnormality, please don't assume this happens all the time, our players are usually quite good re: the honor system and general ethics).

I'd like to hear from those who haven't commented yet, but don't wait on me to hammer, I'm done with this day phase.

[Tierce]

It still does not explain why you were tunneling on a townread and making demands for that townread to show evidence that another player is Town. As purposefully scummy you might be making your play, this is deliberately getting in the way and hampering others' play (namely, mine). Do you not realize that "I was playing scummy on purpose, guyz!" is a call that will almost invariably get you lynched regardless of alignment, especially when all you have to offer for it are four scumreads that aren't even minimally developed and three townreads that are as safe as can be in this environment (since good luck ever lynching me, JasonWazza and buldermar)? You are offering nothing new, no new opinions, no change in visible attitude. That really feels like caught scum clutching at straws to explain his behavior.

[Tierce]

And surely scum would want to try and help out a 'useful distraction' possibly lead a lynch on town's arguably most productive member?

After playing mafia on and off for five years, I don't really see how you can 'surely' see that. I'm not easily lynchable, the last time I was mislynched was ten months ago in my second game on the site. This one is my 36th, so... Scum won't necessarily bother to try and get the IC when they can just off the player at night and focus on pushing lynches that are

actually viable

. You know, like lynches on

scummy townies

, which is what you claim to have been playing as. If you are town, there will be words of advice after the game, because honestly unless you have some pull in terms of capable scumhunting skills, that is a deplorable strategy and will neither get people to like you as a player nor get scum lynched in your watch.

That said, you are most likely to be scum, so... carry on wayward scummer, see you when you flip a nice shade of red, etc.

[Tierce]

Announcing intent to Self-Hammer.

DOn't do that. Well, if you're Town anyway, feel free to self-hammer if you're scum.

Tierce, I know that you don't share my opinion on this matter, but I'm not going to deviate from playing to my win condition for the sake of artificially tweaking the game experience so it resembles that of a conventional game. I'm sorry that we disagree, but I don't think you'll easily be able to change my mind, so please save yourself the trouble of trying to (feel free to blame me, though).

I'm perfectly fine with you making that post, I don't blame you, and neither does anyone involved in the game, I believe. My point is that it was the kind of post

I

, in particular, was trying to avoid writing, because I'm not just a player here, and that kind of approach to the gamepretty much defeats the whole idea of teaching how to play "normally". Do you see the difference?


I'll address the rest later, I haven't slept in far too long.

[Tierce]

*shrug* As I said, I'm not blaming anyone for using the information they have access to, it's fine and may well be playing to the town wincon. I'm saying that as an IC it would probably be somewhat underhanded of me to present that kind of stuff to push a case.

[Tierce]

So... nothing new on the horizon?

As a note, http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4411825
This does not change the townread I had on the slot to begin with,no matter if it's the same guy playing all three accounts.

Leonshade/buldermar, please hammer this. Airick is not going to vote Deltabacon, he will not hammer himself, vendetta is MIA.

[Tierce]

EBWOP: The above townread comment is about PaperSpirit/fish-riding-a-bike-2000, obviously.

[Tierce]

It's possible. Again, it's pretty pointless to dwell on at the moment, since that slot is pretty clearly Town as of now. We'll see what Tomorrow brings.

[Tierce]

I have to review a few things. As of now, I am not interested in lynching Leonshade; I'll have to mull on things a bit to see if I would ever support a Cheery Dog lynch.

The alternative explanation is that the guy holding both slots was an idiot. Considering he was a cheater, I do not feel the least bad thinking unflattering thoughts about the way his mind works.

The RedRabbit kill is interesting, taking into account that I was eyeing him as a potential suspect for the way he was (without checking, this is from memory) too eagerly following me around with a strong voice. This means I have to review things in full.

[Tierce]

I am. Time goes by so fast~

Are you scum, Great Cult Leader?

[Tierce]

There's a difference between cheating in an attempt to win and... whatever he did. I'm not sure we can know what he was trying to do. Was he going for a town win or a scum win? Was he just doing stuff for kicks?

That's my problem. I tried to apply logic to it, but with a Town flip from Deltabacon, I don't know anymore.

buldermar--I'll address your stuff asap, I'm exhausted today. Mostly, from memory, it was about RebRabbit's vote patterns; he seemed incisive about the people I was already being incisive about. It felt somewhat like overkill. Regarding Leonshade/Cheery Dog, I did say I'd have to reassess things Today should Deltabacon flip Town.


Jason: Hi. Yes, I'm the IC and I'm alive. In case you didn't notice, I led what turned out to be a mislynch yesterday. It's no surprise I am alive because of that and because scum might have feared a blocked kill (PEdit: There you go). Can't argue that line of thought further since I'm not in their minds; what I can do is analyze RedRabbit's death instead. Which I'll do when my bed isn't singing like a siren.

This game is problematic in that we went into night with more than three experienced players. That pretty much does away with the "one of the SEs is scum" idea, since a good chunk of you

do

have experience regardless of your slot's.

I'm rambling. I really need sleep, I flipped my sleep schedule around last night and am nodding off.

[Tierce]

^^ That is, he always loses with at least one slot and, as such, can never truely be playing to win.

...He was cheating, I think the play to win concept went out the window ages ago. What I was trying to do was get the reasoning for acting a certain manner and push a certain alignment's chances over the other. ...I think this isn't English anymore, I'm past semi-poetic stream of consciousness onto inane rambling. See you tomorrow.

[Tierce]

2) Tierce, well I'm realizing I misread your posts but I'll ask the question. Can you explain your shift from Post 243 to Post 325?

Deltabacon flipped Town. Post 243

made it very clear

that that plan was to take place pending a

scum

flip from his slot:

If Deltabacon flips

scum

and I die tonight, you lynch Cheery Dog and Leonshade until one of them flips scum. No questions asked, just do it. I guarantee that Deltabacon's scum flip will turn this into a town victory if you go along with this.

Question #2: Why am I here and not in bed. >.>

Going, going...

[Tierce]

If

[Tierce]

is scum, she likes to off those who suspect her.

*squint*

You know my scum-kill meta and that's not it.

[Tierce]

Since ever.

[Tierce]

It's simple enough, I kill obvtown and people I suspect of being PRs.

[Tierce]

It never rains but it pours. Came down with something yesterday, give me a couple of days to get my bearings and actually know what I'm posting.

[Tierce]

...7 days? I didn't realize the deadline was down to 14. Post later tonight.

[Tierce]

Alright, let's do this. Been a struggle to find time and patience for this game, and that's something I shouldn't be doing in the IC position. Should be done now that I'm caught up.

I'm not going back on this read on PaperSpirit/JasonWazza; I've seen the newbie No Lynch Towntell in a lot of games and it still has to prove me wrong.

I had a Townread on BT. Namely, things like this:

I do not agree with your [Tierce's] read on Sylvant/ovyo, but it is still early. I do find it odd that Sylvant voted PaperSpirit after PaperSpirit's post about a no-lynch.

You disagree but you find it odd. Which is it? 'Odd' needs elaboration.

show that he is actually trying to perceive motivations, and then he follows up in this kind of thing. It's a steady flow of interaction, shows thought on a deeper level than superficial fakeness.

That read flipped because I thought Natural_river's behavior was indicative of scum should Deltabacon be scum; but his Townflip throws that theory to the dust, and I frankly can't make sense of Natural_river/fish-riding-a-bike-2000/MrJamesWatson to figure out any potential different alignments there. The latter two are likely Town (Jason and Leonshade--go reread ovyo, that is a lost Town newbie), but Cheery Dog? BT Townread would say so.

I want to call buldermar Town as well; even though the Deltabacon theory fell through, I do still like the way he behaved before and throughout it. I can't look at Post 281 and think scum knowing Natural_river/MrJamesWatson/fish's alignment would look at things that thoroughly.

This leaves me a possible BT/Cheery Dog, vendetta/Xalxe and Airick.


Noting that Airick unvoted vendetta at L-1; he didn't follow up on vendetta after the latter spoke up, instead just declaring V/LA.

Post 177 shows that Airick is now completely ignoring vendetta, who he had aavote on until he went on holidays. I don't think this is a natural progression; buldermar was at L-3, so was vendetta, and Airick ignores the reaction he was allegedly waiting for and jumps on buldermar. The only comment he has on vendetta is:

I suspect there is one scum between buldermar, Tierce, and vendetta. The other scum is quietly letting them take over the game. Let one scum stir the pot and distract the town, while the other just waits.

So... why ignore the scumread you were previously voting for? While vendetta didn't post in the meantime, it's glaring that Airick is now paying attention to events that have happened since his last post, but did not mention once in Post 202.

I know this looks like a scummy move, especially to Delta's eyes as I'm backing off the buldermar lynch and not voting on Delta. Frankly, I do not have a solid scum read at this point and as I said, I don't want to vote on somebody who I do not think is scum.

What happened to his Tierce and vendetta reads?

And he doesn't really go about Xalxe in any significant manner. :/

An aside:

Tierce or mod (whoever can answer this) - since vendetta was replaced during the night, let's say vendetta had a night action available. Would vendetta or Xalxe have the chance to perform the night action? If it was vendetta, then I can assume he was inactive and did not do any night action?

I don't see any Town motivation to ask this, as we know there was a kill and whether or not vendetta performed it is irrelevant since there are two scum. I am, however, kind of tempted to call Airick goon to Xalxe/vendetta's rolecop.

Since Delta turned town, I will go along with his theory and try to find one scum.

Since I am town

, I will vote for the other half of the buldermar/unvote group.

Vote: Xalxe

I will have to assume vendetta did not perform any night action, but his partner obviously is in tune to the Delta & RedRabbit alignment discussion.

This is

posturing

and an easy excuse for using someone else's reads. There is also no way Town can be sure (or should even assume) that vendetta was not active during night, or that izak didn't allow the slot's partner to perform an action for him in case Xalxe/vendetta is scum.


On RedRabbit:

Why

did a newbie die? Was there some kind of power role hint? I don't think so. He was not clearly Town. He went after vendetta and buldermar, and has Post 272 where he shows suspicion of Airick.


Alright, let's tackle this:

But i'm kinda confused with the kill, Tierce is leading the charge mostly in this game so most scum would have likely killed her (not to mention she is the IC that is like newb kill central) yet she is still alive, which makes me concerned for 3 reasons
1) The obv-town read on my slot may not be from experience but a mix of experience and prior knowledge
2) That she lead a lynch on Delta, even though she said it was more likely to be scum in CD/Leon
3) Is steering as far away from a CD/Leon lynch in her recent posting.

All this makes me think that the scum are in CD/Leon/Tierce, cause Tierce would then have reason to steer lynches away from the 2 slots.

With all that crap out, i am somewhat confident in this vote

VOTE: Tierce

1) Not much I can tell you on that one except that you are wrong, and that while I have remarked on such newbie Towntells before as scum, being aware that they exist also helps me spot them as

Town

.

2) Cheery Dog/Leonshade + Deltabacon team was dependent on Deltabacon's flip, as he was the keystone. If my mind goes that the scumteam is either {Deltabacon, Cheery Dog} or {Deltabacon, Leonshade}, I will lynch Deltabacon. Makes perfect sense as a decision in such circumstances.

3) Deltabacon flipped Town and I am not convinced BT/Cheery Dog or ovyo/Leonshade are scum.

(Please do give me some credit, if I was bussing I would not balk at it like that, it's a silly idea.)

The RedRabbit kill is interesting, taking into account that I was eyeing him as a potential suspect for the way he was (without checking, this is from memory) too eagerly following me around with a strong voice. This means I have to review things in full.

Could you provide quotes of his supposed following you around?

The following two:

I think I'm actually starting to see how Tierce came up with the "obvtown" on Paper/Fish.

The way I'm seeing it is: If Paper was newb and town and didn't really know how to play the game then it is more likely than not that he would have voted no lynch/waited to vote. It's a rookie mistake when playing this format.
If Paper was newb and scum and didn't really know how to play the game he would have voted randomly just to try and get a lynch of a townie or would have been instructed by his scum buddy to do so (i.e. not vote no lynch).

That he wasn't informed by someone else leads me to think that he was on his own, therefore town. Tierce could be scum and the informed minority, but there is another option. Her case for not telling what her read was specifically had little to do with what the read was or how she got it and more to do with the fact that she would not be bullied into giving somebody what they want just because they asked for it imo. I think this is the right move and goes some way to me trusting Tierce. It's actually why I called her on the exact same thing earlier. To see if she'd cave.

Ok, I'm buying it. I still have a scum read on ovyo/Mr.JamesWatson/Leonshade, (stronger than before), but I'll join your wagon in order to get the lynch today.


UNVOTE: ovyo
VOTE: DeltaBacon.

Note: DeltaBacon is now L-1.

It's not much, no. And now that I've reread him somewhat, he had some pretty innocent questions that were quite indicative of newbTown in hindsight, but those still don't explain very well why he was the chosen kill--things like who he suspected might be more fitting, and that final D1 interaction with Airick might be telling.


As for the Xalxe and buldermar debacle: please, buldermar. This is a game, and tempers may flare. I am quite certain that Xalxe didn't mean anything personally, and denying us valuable interactions hurts the Town. Save it for post-game. As for you, Xalxe, you should know better. Newbies aren't necessarily thick-skinned and they are trying to learn. Please be kind.


VOTE: Airick10

[Tierce]

Cheery Dog: Stop carrying the banner for a dead case. It's no longer valid and you are better than that. Who is scum?

Leonshade, you can do better.

Xalxe... oh wait, you're probably scum.

[Tierce]

I count two people already who could be accompanying me in this Airick wagon instead of voting for that yellow-eyed feline.

[Tierce]

That "I am not joining a wagon led by someone who led a mislynch Yesterday" logic is bad. You did not seem any more convinced than I was that it was going to hit Town, so stop acting like people don't have the right to make mistakes. Going after Leonshade just because Deltabacon flipped Town and he suspected Leonshade is nonsensical, Deltabacon's Townflip does not make his reads correct, it just gives him a clean motivation. Why are Deltabacon's inherited reads better than your own?

[Tierce]

By the by, how do you feel about the fact that I just saw Airick come in, look through one Road to Rome thread (he's only playing in this game) for quite a long while, for a period long enough to say something... but he didn't?

Scum typically avoid certain moments of discussion. Someone doesn't want to come out and address the points brought against him.

[Tierce]

Those listings aren't always correct. Click a few people in the Who is online section at the bottom of this page, then see if the hours match the present. They often don't.

Okay, seriously, explain in full why you think Leonshade is scum, because that's not making any sense.

[Tierce]

Airick10 Reading topic in The Road to Rome Mon 29 Oct 2012 00:10:08

Want more proof he's around?

[Tierce]

If scum would split up off the buldermar vote and one goes to CD/LeonShade and one stays on buldermar or unvotes, then you have to look at those two pairs with one scum hiding in each. I am not scum, therefore my vote lies with Xalxe (the vendetta slot).

This division doesn't always happen.


@Cheery Dog: That logic is actually quite interesting--you're saying that our lovely cheater kept replacing into the game until he got a scum slot, to then eliminate the scumteam through his Town ones?

Yeah, you can be Town now (some more). But I still think you are very wrong about Leonshade and that that is not what happened. I don't have any clue what

did

happen, but I don't think that's the case.

[Tierce]

but then I guess anygame you play that has Thor in it is probably different to any other game you have..

*snerk*

You are more right there than you'd know.

[Tierce]

2) But considering you were more confident of CD/Leon being scum, shouldn't they have been one of the one's you lynched?
My logic may be a bit off, but wouldn't lynching the more likely to be scum be better then the scum based on another player being scum?

No. Sometimes one does not vote the strongest scumread--voting the scumread whose flip gives

more

information can be a good decision. The point of the game isn't just to lynch scum, it is to eliminate

all

the scum. If we had lynched Cheery Dog and he flipped Town, for example, today we would still be considering a Deltabacon/Leonshade team, and it could lead to another mislynch.

For example, in the just finished Open 453, the Town had narrowed the scum to three people--me and two others. They did not think the other two were scum together, so they lynched

me

first and then hunted for my partner (who was actually neither of the two, but that's beside the point), because the only way the game made sense was with me being scum. That was the logic I was applying to that trio.

To balk:
1. To stop short and refuse to go on: The horse balked at the jump.
2. To refuse obstinately or abruptly: She balked at the very idea of compromise.

[Tierce]

If scum would split up off the buldermar vote and one goes to CD/LeonShade and one stays on buldermar or unvotes, then you have to look at those two pairs with one scum hiding in each. I am not scum, therefore my vote lies with Xalxe (the vendetta slot).

This division doesn't always happen.

Therefore it simply just can not happen?

I did not say that. I just think your vote is cheap and uses poor justification altogether, as the reasons you are presenting for voting Xalxe are based on math alone and you have long dropped whatever his predecessor did that was bugging you. My conclusion is that you 'lost' interest on an inactive slot because you didn't have weight to make a bus look good there and had rather see a mislynch go through. For someone who so opposed the Deltabacon lynch as you apparently did, there was a remarkable lack of pushing on

anyone else

, vendetta/Xalxe included. You were not voting at the end of D1.

[Tierce]

I know you aren't asking for differentiation, I was simply explaining that Newbie games are usually handled quite differently in what is expected behavior from experienced players. The goal is the same (win the game), but putting off people who are not used to the site (and some egos) on their first games is something that we do not want to do.


Regarding the above posts: The parenthesis on 282 involved me dying. I did not, I have Townreads on both of them, I have no interest in pursuing a plan that no longer makes any sense given Deltabacon's Townflip.

[Tierce]

Hai Xalxe.

[Tierce]

*crickets*

Still fine with this lynch.

@mod, please prod JasonWazza.

[Tierce]

I don't believe airick and Xalxe to be a likely team

Why?

Tierce is the main pusher of your lynch, and I can possibly see that team.

Which team--me and Airick? ...by all means, help me 'bus' then.

[Tierce]

Oof. A pity, because to Cheery Dog buldermar was confirmed scum. There was no need to force the Other Scum lynch Today. I understand his position, but ouch.

Congrats, scum. I'll try and post some detailed analysis later.