NY 160: Terrible Melodrama Mafia (Game Over)

[Gentlemen Bastards]

For those who don't know us we're a hydra account with the heads being Regfan and Empire (Satire). We've already caught up and had a discussion about most of our reads, there's about two or three reads that we're somewhat less sure on and want to do some meta research into but that'll have to wait a little bit.

Anyway here's where we're at right now (If you want anything explained in more detail just ask):

Town (Strongest to Weakest):

Jason

should never have fucking been voted. This dude is literally the-most-obv-town player I have ever come across. Ever. The fact that he even got one vote let alone multiple is shockingly disgusting. For those too blind to see it themselves or too caught up pushing on him out of play style annoyance here's what you've missed; The fact that he 'was going through' C+B and found a post he disliked at 1:19PM then had 'opinions' at 1:59PM proves he was scumhunting and reading peoples ISOs for 40 minutes on page 4, scum do not do that. Scum do not spend forever going through peoples posts only to make an 'opinion time post' to follow it. The fact that he stated that he spent too long doing it and it delayed everything else he had to do shows commitment that town give and his "It was difficult enough to try and justify mythoughs rather than just state what is my gut instinct." is so unbelievably genuine that it's not funny.

DemonCores

placement of the Piggy vote and case against her is literally spot on, the fact that she changed her stance on Jacob and then made up a 'slip' is incredibly damning and his paranoia of RedCoyote when he replaced in is legitimate and comments of 'Dropping of scumlist' 'Moving up townlist' are big town-tells.

PlanBs

reads and scumhunting is incredibly genuine as is the fact that he's shown he's willing to re-think reads and actually go over things again. We can explain this read in more detail if needed but think it's relatively obvious he's town.

RedCoyotes

normally extremely difficult to read and probably who we regard as one of the stronger scum players on the site but we're fairly sure we've correct on him being town in this game. We tend to find he's a bit more 'detailed' into things as scum and plays a weaker game as town and his catch up post this game sort of resembles his town manner of catching up. We pretty much like all of his reads and stances with the only exception being Jacob but Empire was telling me he said "As town he loves to push people who are indecisive" and thinks that's the case here with Jacob. Also love his interactions with Plan B.

Empkings (Theamateur)

replace in post of reads mirrors a lot of our thoughts, that being the fact that Jacob is obvobvtown and should never have been voted alongside Piggy/UT-Scum. His "Seriously Thea" is a pretty strong town-tell and Theams "Not seeing what Senaji did that makes him mafia" mirrors his stance on RVS from Scummies Mafia where he was town and caught a lot of flak from it, don't think it's something he'd do as scum.

4nxietys

read on Jacob as well as his thoughts on Senjai come across as very genuine. His comment of "If I die look at Doom" is the sort of comment I state as town a lot and seen a lot of townies do it in the past whereas it's something scum rarely state so naturally.

Adorkable is interesting. We both kept saying "Yeah Adorkable is town" "That post reads as town" on AIM to each other when reading through the thread but going back and ISOing them I'm not anywhere near as sure about this town-read as I was before. Think the main reason we found them town was that their push on Piggy was good and their tone and attitude when reading through the thread comes across as town.

Dooms early early game posts were quite bad but we think it just took him a while to get into the game as after then his reads and thoughts were a lot easier to follow and somewhat understand, wanted to do some meta research into him and in fact I'll put an (*) here to remember to do it later.

Nero Cains

annoyance with Senjai feels very genuine and the manner in which he claimed also reads as genuine, there's a few more minor things pointing towards him being town but biggest issue was in DVs last mini normal he had a jailkeeper, not a roleblocker and if he is the type to prefer town JK I somewhat doubt a town roleblocker.

Any potential way we can find out who reviewed the setup at all?

Overall though I still lean towards him being town but don't take that to the bank.

F-16 (C+B)

is probably one of our weakest town reads by far, pretty much revolves around their push on Piggy looking like they genuinely believe she's mafia, will be wanting to really go back and take a re look at this read though.

Scum (Strongest to Weakest):

Piggy

couldn't be any more obvscum, first of there's the fact that when I was reviewing DVs mini normal he wanted a Mafia Watcher in the setup and didn't get it because the setup was too scumsided at the time which means him wanting to stick one into this game is massively massively likely. Then there's the fact that her turn around on Jacob is massively opportunistic since he was the counterwagon, not just that but what she said was a 'slip' isn't even close to one, it's the sort of thing scum use to push fake cases all the time. Then she claims and states Post 274 "If people start lynch claimed PRs, with no counterclaims, I'm honestly going to stop playing mafia." when getting voted which is AtE but then when NeroCain claims later as a roleblocker she pushes his lynch, it's a massive massive contradiction and shows that she's literally lying between her teeth.

ToonFighter

really shouldn't have anyone having a town-read on him, he's also relatively obvious mafia and the fact that he hasn't really been legitimately pushed yet is shocking. We kept saying on AIM when discussing the game "Why the fuck aren't people turbolynching this dude" and it's a question that I really do want answered. He voted Senjai very early on, then used something that happened after his vote as justification for his vote, then used something after that even as justification for his vote and kept changing his reason behind why his vote was there, it was blatant 'do action, think of reasons to cover up action'. Not just that though but his Post 98 is so waffly that it's not funny, it's 'what you did makes me think you're more likely town but what you also did makes me think you're more likely mafia so I'm keeping my vote on you" it's not a town mindset, it's not a legitimate scumhunting thought process at all. He then jumps on Jacob when the wagon there is growing from memory then says that Piggy is bad and needs more opinions then states that "I'm expecting good reasons for moving my vote to piggy. But, for what I've seen so far, I'd be happy to put my vote on her." in Post 221 which is literally saying "If I have to buss my partner I will" progresses to state intention to hammer if no claim, then she claims and he jumps right of it stating that he's willing to believe her for a day but when Nero claims it's the opposite, he wants the lynch today. The double standards that he shows there makes it incredibly obvious of a Piggy-Toon scum-team.

UTs

done nothing other than prod-dodge and filler post which matches his scum meta to a tee. If you're interested in the meta here it is Abart, Scum, Lurking/Fluff Posting/Replaced, Almost Normal, Town, Very Active / Some Fluff Posting and Flash Mafia 3, Scum, Lurking/Replaced so you can tell a massive difference between the amount of effort and energy he puts forward in town games in comparison to scum games and right now he's meeting his scum meta, needs to be hung very soon.

N

is probably my biggest wrench-in-the-works read at the moment. To put it very simply his content and posts have been atrocious and he looks as if he's trying to slip under the radar as much as possible rather than actually scumhunt but the problem is he doesn't fit with my other scum reads. Like not at all. I'm relatively confident that Piggy/Toon are scum, like would bet on it at the moment and the fact that after Piggy was run up and claimed Toon voted N and N voted Toon points against them being a trio. Scum don't buss when a partner is already run up, not like that. I know this is a tin-foil-hat sort of theory at the moment but 15 player game doesn't work with 5-6 scum and with 4 scum it's too few so I'm thinking we're dealing with 4 scum and SK and I think Ns play works exactly as a SK. Know it's a high ask but want him roleblocked or investigated or something soon if two kills start happening.

---

Very very happy with either a Toon or Piggy lynch today. Other gets lynched tomorrow followed by a UT lynch and then a N lynch if there's multi-kills happening. This needs to be stuck to, don't want to die and watch a town failure occur when all three/four of them are fairly obvscum. Also if Jason ever gets lynched then we're going to hunt down whoever votes him and murder them in their sleep, same goes if DC gets lynched.

Unvote, Vote; PiggyGirl

[Gentlemen Bastards]

EBWOP: It's JacobSavage, not Jason that should be listed in that post.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Piggy, you say if Nero is town that he's very likely to be night-killed while at the same time stating that you're not going to follow Adorkables plan to watch Nero because you want to watch someone that's likely to die. It's a massively contradiction, if you wanted to watch someone likely to die you'd have no issue watching Nero. But we'll leave that for now and instead focus on explaining the following to me; You state that lynching an un cc'ed pr is 'blacklist worthy' and that you'll 'quit' if it happens yet are content lynching Nerocain who is an un cc'ed pr because you 'think his claim is fake' so how is that different from people believing your claim was fake earlier? It doesn't make any sense nor does it work and it means you're guarenteed to be lying one way or another, either that you think uncc'ed prs are non-lynchworhty and you're breaking your own rules or you think they are lynch worthy and lied when you stated such earlier as an attempt at emotional manipulation.

DoomYoshi, we're Senjai, or at least his replacemnt, he seems to have siteflaked. Also meta is the most effective tool to scumhunt with, some people (Maguatroll) would argue that without meta scumhunting is near impossible. Meta gives you a baseline of what to expect from someone, how active they are as scum or town, what their posting style is like, what their reaction towards pressure is as both alignments. You'll find that a lot of town or scum-tells people use on people are actually incorrect and are non-alignment indicative playstyle indicators for players and metaing them allows you to work out what parts of their play are null-tells and what aren't. I'd rather not go google hunting so if you could just tell me the name of sites you've played mafia at elsewhere that'd be much appreciated.

Toon, our scum-read on you is much more than just 'interaction-based' that's just one element of it and not sure how you could take it as being the whole thing if you read our paragraph on you. It also has to do with the fact that you threw down a vote on Senjai then continously justified it with actions that happened after the vote had occurred always changing the reasons. It's not a genuine scum-read on him at all but rather you just doing your best to maintain your prescene on his wagon. Similarily your 'I have a scum-read on Piggy' 'Someone tell me why to vote her' isn't something that makes sense, if you're happy to vote her and have a scum read on her you wouldn't need others reasons to convince you to do so. Long story short none of your scumhunting comes across as genuine at all and the fact that you're treating Nero and Piggys claims differently in the sense that you're going 'Leave till tomorrow' and 'Lynch!!' makes no sense.

Demon, if you have 'too many suspects' you should remove RC, he's town and you're just paranoid of him.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Only had a smallish chance to speak with Empire for about 15 - 20 minutes after the night ended, went through a lot of peoples ISOs and Doom ISO to work out who likely is/isn't partners with Doom.

Dooms interactions with Jacob pretty much confirms / strengthens him being town

due to posts such as Post 76, Post 168 and his attempt at re-getting the Jacob wagon going in Post 286 though that's not really needed, he's already incredibly obvious town.

It also points heavily towards Anxiety being town

as his "If I die I think X is mafia" is about Doom in Post 264 alongside with other interactions with Doom such as Post 295.

It also strengthens Empking-Town

given Post 337 and Dooms response in Post 339 but he's more town from non-interaction stuff than interaction related stuff.

Unfortunately Post 404 from Doom to UT means he's very probably town.

His 'self-preservationist play' comment leading him to 'not trust him later' really really doesn't look like scum talking to a partner at all which means that our UT-Scum read is probably wrong or at least means he no longer needs to be instantly hung and UTs response in Post 406 strengthens that, Empires somewhat paranoid about him potentially being a SK - speaking of which I'm thinking it might be optimal for a vig to claim if the vig was the person that shot Doom, would give us closure over whether it's just flat one scum-team or whether we're dealing with multi-scum or a SK in the game. Would need others opinion on this though because might be slightly early for it - initial gut instinct is that holding of until tomorrow is probably optimal.

Dooms interactions actually point heavily towards F-16 (C+B) being scum

, C+B never mention Doom at all and Dooms mentions of C+B are in Post 176 where he says that he understands what people mean about C+B and there might be something there, then stated the false conclusion was gotten to from other people, then stated he thought about it and there's nothing then. He really tries to decredit and belittle the case / reasoning behind people voting the slot. On a meta note, Empire says that he knows F-16s play fairly well and I was following along his town play in Stratego mafia and a few of his other town games, he's very active as town, very commited and very determined to get in and help and while he only just replaced in three - four days before yesterdays deadline his catch up post of Post 392 "I'll get to this this evening, very looking forward to it'" is bullshit since he's been active elsewhere on the site a LOT between that post and end of yesterday and again since start of today and now and given that we got "Day started" PMs it's impossible for him to have 'forgotten' about the game.

Want to talk with Empire a bit more about N / NeroCain / Adorkable before going into them but the brief bits we spoke

NeroCain interaction wise was slightly more likely to be scum with Dooms flip

and

N was slightly less likely to be scum.

Nothing changes with Toon, he still needs death.

Adorkable:

Can you explain to us the "Told you so" attitude from the clip given that we read through you and found little to no trace of you having a scum-read on Doom at all. Closest we found was you randomly voting him as a 'placeholder vote' stating you'll get to him in the morning in Post 373 and never actually following through on it at all. Also slightly unrelated question, went to do some meta'ing on you and apparently you're not a 'private hydra' but rather just Pie / Euso, is there any particular reason you've been refering to each other as 'that head' 'other head' ect. this game whereas calling yourself actual names in other games?

(Minor thing, Piggy, if you're still following along fucking claim your

full

role next time you claim, not doing so pisses me of to no end.)

Vote: Toon

- Very interchangeable with F-16 at the moment.

Pedit: Empking stop being a shitbag, actually read my posts, you'll notice that we're town and you'll notice UT as useless as he is, isn't scum.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Where did you say that?

About UT? We hadn't until the post above. The "read our posts" was about us mainly, hoping you really didn't miss it because it's been mentioned more than once but we're Senajis replacement, given that he was one of 'your 3' on your list stating that you're 'more confident that the three is mafia' means you think we're scum and I think if you're actually reading our posts alongside with the game there's legitimately no way that you'd actually think that (Plus the fact that Senaji was incredibly obvtown alone which is the main reason we replaced into the game. Instead of just blindingly seeing that he 'fluff-posted' at the start look behind the motivations behind his posts and you'll noticed he was relaxed and his 'gambit' for getting a read on Toon although completely stupid was obvtown, there's a lot of other tells but that alone with our play should be enough to prove that you're wrong and at least time to start rethinking - look at our Toon scum-read and F-16 too).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Town are more relaxed than scum, scum even though they have partners know that majority is against them and have something to hide whereas town have literally nothing to hide so can play much looser. But I'd rather not get into a theoretical discussion.

What about Dooms comment towards UT and UTs response do you think make them potential partners? Because while I hate it pretty sure UTs town from it.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

UT, you're going to have to cope with me constantly being annoyed that you're probably town here because it just reminds me of your shit from Sedilla all over again.

Would you be more likely to believe her if she'd claimed 2-shot? I personally would be less inclined to believe a day 1 claim that included how many shots. Claiming the full role makes you more likely to take the nightkill (although I see this might not be so useful d1). Scum fakeclaiming x-shot is more likely, because then they can be lazier.

I honestly don't know, I'd like to think it'd have impacted my opinion in some way (I know that DV had a lot of limited-power roles for town in his prior game but Doon also flipping limited shot probably means that line of logic would have been wrong even if it might have led me to the right conclusion) but I rather have full information available for me to get a read based on, town withholding anything at all literally anything when at L-1 is stupid.

PEdit: Empking, the same thing could be attributed to N / Toon / RC / Adorkable.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Undoubtedly at least one, and probably two, scum are in those five names. As I said, I've paid less attention to it than it deserves.

Thought you were being sarcastic. You should take a look into Toon again (Plus look at our read on him in Post 399 and Post 429).

it should be pretty clear by now that I'm playing a different game this time

I see little difference, you posted little to no content D1 and now are sitting on Empking for interactions with Doom that actually make him more likely town than scum. Plus the fact that the rest of his play is fairly damn townie. Also I don't care if you find my hatred of you scummy, it's unlikely to lessen.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Piggy flipping town pretty much meant the whole trio of Toon / Piggy / N not working thing became irrelevant but Empire found something in Ns ISO that pointed against him being a Doom-partner. I think it was Post 87 (?) but not certain if he was talking about Ns reaction towards Doom or Dooms question towards N or the overall interaction, I find the whole thing fairly weak but want to talk with him more about it and he can probably explain his thoughts better than I can - he's heading into a college lecture so he should be able to post in the next few hours. We really rushed over a bunch of people because he had to go.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I still want to see a plane get lynched

Me too.

Unvote, vote: F-16

Regfan and I talked for a little bit and we noted the fact that F-16 has posted pretty prolifically elsewhere in the site and not here. Hell, he's even gone so far as to /in for another game so he does have enough free time. Definitely a far cry from the eagerness to post and help out that I saw in Micro 53.

Empking, to clarify what Regfan brought up in our #455, it's primarily the way N reacts to Doom there.

Would love to hear from some other people who haven't posted yet.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

RC, 4nx is town. Like blatantly. He wouldn't direct a comment like #264 at his partner.

Remember this game? F-16 replaced into it, was very active and engaged almost immediately. The fact that he hasn't posted at all since his short replace-in post despite posting elsewhere should be ringing alarm bells to you right now, RC.

Vote F-16 with us.

@N:

What are your reads right now? Regfan and I have been looking at your ISO and you haven't given us much stance-wise.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Exhausted so will try and focus on this game tomorrow, think Empires just gone to bed so will be able to talk with him then too.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

F-16, your scum-read on Jacob is trash, it seems to pretty much be completely based around him 'whiteknighting' Piggy and then you're basing a lot of your other rads on your read on him. None of it is anything I can follow logically at all. Also while 'catching-up' into games as a replacement isn't the quickest thing in the world it doesn't take a week, especially if you claim that you were motivated to do it as well; and the games only 20 pages, that's relatively small.

Adorakable, don't think Post 339 about UT is a tell either way.

RC, Doom didn't 'push C+B' hard throughout the day at all, in fact if anything he defended them and was very waffly about them.

Seems there's more support over here:

Unvote, Vote: Toon

[Gentlemen Bastards]

What the actual fuck people? DY literally voted Jacob at #76 parking his vote there only switching when Piggy was getting run up (#262)and then immediately hopping back in #286. He also directed comments like #168's "Sorry, JS, but this is laughably horrendous. There are more problems but this is a trifecta of I can't understand how a goes to b." and #286's "I'm not sold on the towniness here." They're pretty blatantly not partners. To say he never actively pushed the JS lynch is complete bullshit. Vote Toon Fighter instead.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Uhhh no. Regfan calculated the amount of time DY had his vote on both players. DY had his vote on JS from Oct. 31st to Nov. 5th and then again from Nov. 6th to the 8th. DY had his vote on N from Nov. 8th to the 12th. By our count, that's 7 days on JS and 4 on N. Plus you're ignoring the fact that JS's play, on its own, is very very town.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@ Gentlemen Bastards and Empking

I'm comfortable with you guys in my Town reads pile. Could you explain how I might be wrong about Nero Cain?

I think it's entirely possible for Nero to be scum, I just don't find your case on him to be anywhere near as strong as the case on F-16 or Toon, think they're much much more likely to flip mafia plus I'm somewhat reluctant to risk mslynching another town pr again after yesterday. I think if there is a SK in the game they'll know that a roleblocker is a role that can seriously fuck them up as we can either PoE clear people via being roleblocked and thus confirmed not SK or they themselves get roleblocked and become confirmed so really I think if there's a SK they'll be forced to shoot Nero at some point meaning it's not worth focusing on for a while.

F-16_Fighting_Falcon's catch up reads to me to be coming from Town mindset. I disagree with the JacobSavage conclusion, but don't pervieve it as a scum motivated attack. Especially given that multiple players have espoused Town leanings on JacobSavage (including Demon Core who is known Town). New and different viewpoints expressed is more likely to come from Town as opposed to finding an easy path to blend in.

I don't find his reads to be that genuine at all and think his attack on Jacob ignores a lot of the reasoning that makes him very obvtown, it's as if he's avoiding that to just continue to push his case. And he's stated a scum-read on Toon so not seeing him as town here not moving across to the Toon wagon or at least hesitating when Toon joined him on Jacob. I really cannot see his play here as town and if we die at some point you need to promise us that he's strung up before lylo.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I think one of the major disagreements about JS seems to be whether to use associative tells or his individual behavior to determine whether he is scum. Let's look at individual behavior first: JacobSavage has yet to respond to or comment on my catchup post. He placed his vote on me and when I made two long catch up posts, one directly about him, he has ignored it completely and didn't change his opinion of me at all (whether I am more scummy or less scummy to him). I'd expect town to be analyzing the behavior of other players and responding to them especially when that player makes a huge wall dedicated to them. Instead JacobSavage relies on GentlemenBastards to do that analysis and mount a defense in his favor.

Actually, he's been voting your slot since well before your catch-up walls here on D1 and here on D2, both well in advance of your #478 so that is not true. As far as his lack of response and his inactivity are concerned, it's a site-wide problem if you look at the timing of his recent posts overall.

@ GB, why is JacobSavage town based on individual behavior? You seem be to pushing the idea that JS is obv considerably while he lurked like a CIA spy so far this day phase.

We already explained why here, first paragraph (ignore the typo). See above re: his lurking.

As GB has pointed out, the first instance of DY placing a vote on JacobSavage is on post 76. GB, you ascribe town motivations to that vote to support a Jacob-town conclusion but this doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Let's take a look at the vote count right above that post:

This was at the beginning of page 4. At that point, the game was just transitioning out of RVS as evident by the distribution of votes. Plan B had posted a non-RVS vote on JacobSavage, and Doom hopped on with minimal reasoning. He says:

"

why would town have a reason to be nervous? Wouldn't you agree that someone who is nervous during page 2 scum?
You also never answered 4nxiety's question.

"

This isn't a vote to lynch. It is evident from this reason for vote that Doom had not intended for JacobSavage to be lynched but to rather answer a question that he posed. The fact that he quickly jumped on when another player had voted JS suggests an early distancing tactic as opposed to scum voting town.

This is a stretch. If you're using the logic that votes in the early game portion of the game aren't to 'lynch' then any vote wherever placed could be considered 'distancing'. The idea is that a vote promotes pressure and attention, scum at that point are less likely to want to pressure a partner and more likely want to steer people's votes onto town to have them respond badly and lead to a lynch. Basically, scum often try to piggyback off the incorrect vote of a townie in the hopes that it leads to a mislynch.

This is the part that makes me question the associative tell on Jacob Savage a little because he was on JS's wagon as opposed to Piggy's. However, after Senjai voted Piggy to bring the vote count to 6-6, Jacob hops onto Piggy putting her at L-1 and a likely candidate for a lynch. This swings momentum in favor of a Piggy lynch making it more likely than Jacob's.

I assume you meant Doom hops onto Piggy and puts her at L-1? Him moving onto Piggy at that point means nothing there especially if you assume that both Piggy/Jacob are town since he's just looking to push a ML through.

The wagon on JacobSavage showed signs of dissipating as well when Doom voted on it. I can see it both from a JS-town perspective as well as a JS-scum perspective. If JS is town, Doom parked his vote on the next most likely mislynch to succeed. If JS is scum, Doom placed his vote on the dissipating wagon of his buddy hoping that he won't be implicated if someone else is lynched and flips scum OR that if his buddy is lynched (it could have happened considering JS was a Piggy counterwagon), Doom looks good.

No doubt if it is the former, JS gets a lot of townpoints. But Doom's earlier comments of setting up lynches based on JS's flip as well as comments he makes later make the possibility of distancing a likely one. Comments like this...support a JS/Doom scumteam theory when combined with the wagon-hopping shown by Doom as I displayed above.

So wait, you're saying it's understandable as town and as scum and you're calling it a scumtell? About those two quotes, we think 'chain lynches' is one of those scum-tells people use that are never actually true - sure it might give him reasoning to vote Plan B if the situation played out with Jacob flipping scum but it wouldn't mean that Plan B would get lynched. The entire "If he is scum I will vote you" comes off more as an attempt to appeal to Plan B to get back on Jacob rather than an attempt to set up future lynches. Basically, it's a sort of intimidation tactic.

Coming to GentlemenBastard's analysis that the fact that Doom directed comments like "

Sorry, JS, but this is laughably horrendous. There are more problems but this is a trifecta of I can't understand how a goes to b." and #286's "I'm not sold on the towniness here

." GB, can you explain why this necessarily means that they are not partners. To say that they are not partners based purely on those statements suggests that scum never bus. However, we all know that scum can and do bus especially when it seems like their partner's death is inevitable or highly likely. The fact that Doom tried to make false associations with Jacob while Jacob was going down actually

increases

the likelihood that it was an attempted bus. If Doom felt that Jacob couldn't be saved, the next best thing to do is bus and falsely declare that if your buddy flips scum, townie X is associated with them and must also be lynched. This is exactly what Doom has done.

Ok first off, the quotes are relevant in showing that Jacob is town because scum often try to unreasonably play up the potential scumminess of someone's posts in an effort to gain wagon support for a ML. Scum are less likely to do that with one of their own. Furthermore, as you quote, Doom's vote was the second one on the Jacob wagon -- his lynch was hardly an inevitability at that point. While we both perfectly understand that scum can and do bus, the timing of Doom's vote on the wagon, the rhetoric he employs in trying to get it going, and the persistence of his vote all heavily point against that being a bus.

One other thing: you say you have a scumread on Toon at the end of this post. Toon joins the Jacob wagon here, claiming that he likes your case and reasoning yet you don't comment on his vote at all. Where did your scumread on him go?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

It's not the fact that Jacob put forward effort that makes him town, it's the timing of when he put in the effort and the genuiness behind it. None of it even close to 'fake' and had he 'not looked into peoples ISOs' he wouldn't have had knowledge of what had occurred then. You're trying to manipulate and change everything he's done and push scum intent behind it when there is none. His play has been very transparent. Him not having responded to your case on him is very understandable given that from what I observe he's replaced out of an alternate game because he's busy and struggling time wise, we hinted towards this in our last post but you haven't given researching that an ounce of effort and instead are trying to push through this crappy case.

I'm not going to waste another half hour going through the rest of your points little by little, you're essentially saying that you understand how their interaction works as town, then you're saying you think they work as scum as well so therefore your 'case' on him as scum would be invalidated by the fact that it all happening would be a null-tell. The fact that you haven't even considered that, moved your vote or shown signs of consideration read heavily as you trying to push a mslynch through.

And it's not the fact that you've 'ignored' Toon joining your wagon that's the issue, it's the fact that you stated a scum-read on him before, he gets wagoned and then your scum-read on him gets no mention at all and instead you focus on stating a scum-read on Nero. At this point it's becoming blindingly obvious that you're scum with Toon and doing whatever possible to avoid him getting lynched today - your reads aren't genuine and both of you are hanging today and tomorrow and if by some chance we get night killed tonight I'll trust that RC and Empking will make sure that this wish is fulfilled.

UT, want to stop being a moron and voting with both scum now?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Yeah, Empire is saying that your play here is 10000000% different to your town-meta, as town you're open minded, considerate and 'peripheral' (Sadly not word means in context and he's afked) where as here you're hard-headingly trying to push this through. He'll go into a big meta case tomorrow I think.

We're leaning towards last scum being adorkable too at the moment.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

No, you're not making any sense with your Jacob push here at all. Him having been hunting through ISOs and bumping across a post such as in Post 90 isn't the way that scum fabricate reads and cases. His excitment in 'opinion time' and wanting to know what others think of his reads and thoughts is something that comes from noob-town a lot in Post 91. I mean how anyone can look through his ISO and get scum is something that's uncomprehendable. This line "I have nothing but shit unfourtunatly, there is really nothing much I can find, I have spent a good 2 hours going through each persons posts (don't think i got down to Tripod, I had to cook dinner and that took longer than expected) and it was difficult enough to try and justify my thoughs rather than just state what is my gut instinct." is something that Empire is saying is the towniest line he has ever read in two years of playing mafia and I agree with him on that completely. If you think that it's very plausible for it to be T-S and S-S then you shouldn't be pushing on Jacob confidently at all, especially if you're claiming to have a strong town-read on us and we're telling you he's not for lynching. Instead you'd be willing to move across to Toon given that he has a bigger wagon, more support and yes there is a case put up against him - are you really going to try and pretend that we haven't presented a case on why Toon is scum? Like seriously? It's in Post 399 and Post 429.

You calling my case "crappy" doesn't make it so. Two other people agree with me - you call them scum.

No, Toons scum, UT's just an idiot, we're pretty much just treating him as a scum traitor that we don't have to lynch to win.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

1) I can say the same for you. You are being very hard-headed on the JS-town issue despite being provided a mountain of evidence to the contrary. You are being hard-headed on the "TF should be lynched" issue as well. I don't mind lynching TF if the majority of players want that lynch. It just doesn't make sense to do so without hearing the perspective of other players. 2) In fact my voting pattern analysis was directed at players who wanted more information about DY-JS interaction to make an informed decision as opposed to the one slot that is uninterested in hearing any analysis that shows that JS is scum - ironic that you respond so quickly to it, and start calling players voting for him scum or morons. 3) Pedit: my scumread on JS is stronger than my townread on you guys which was considerably weakened given the intensity of your defence of Jacob. If you continue pushing the Jacob-town case, I doubt my townread on you will hold much longer. Now,

that's

a threat. I'll probably make a huge meta case on you tomorrow and get you lynched if JS flips scum You have not waited to see how other players have responded to my analysis. You have not waited to see whether the JS wagon will grow larger than the TF wagon. You are merely looking at the current state of the wagon which is a difference of one vote.

1) There's no 'mountain' of evidence against him at all, the analysis you've put forward yourself you've admitted to being only one angle of and state that it's also just as plausible to come from town, you continue to pretend that you have some 'strong' case or reasoning against him being scum but there isn't at all. There are some reads that I do need to hear others opinions on to really get a more informed decision and read and there are some that I don't. I don't need anyone to tell me what their read on Jacob is to be able to read him, it's very blatantly town if you read through his ISO but you're ignoring the reasoning we just put forward for why he's town and the fact that his 'cannot explain gut read' ect. comment from him being incredibly town.

2) Voting pattern analysis? You're just making things up now or as Empires saying it's just "a bunch of politician-style rhetoric". And the fact that you're trying to make our comment that UT is a moron and Toon is scum into something is just further proof that you're not reading the thread with a mind that's really scumhunting - if you were you'd have noticed we had a scum read on Toon before he voted Jacob and called UT a moron before he had voted Jacob as well.

3) It's pretty fucking clear that you're just desperately attempting to push this through and avoid a Toon scum lynch, you didn't even read our case on Toon that we posted before and just linked you to again. And not just that but you're attempting to de-credit us for defending our strongest town-read.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

1) No. I'm saying that you're ignoring a lot of the facts behind Jacob-Town and instead pushing onto him despite your 'second strongest' scum-read being the counterwagon with a lot more people agreeing on him being scum and support there and not just vote wise.

2) Again no, your 'evaluation' ignores a fuckload of what happened and is just you misrepresenting the events of yesterday to continue to push on him. Or as Empire is saying " His entire posts are just lame posturing and intimidation tactics like any politician. This guy is literaly Mitt Romney."

3) You're really attempting to ask us why we think our opinion is relevant and valid? Because the only reason to play this game is to scumhunt, state reads, catch scum and contribute, not here to play "Oh let everyone put their 2 cents on the table and we all stand around waiting in the meantime". You're also trying to say "Why are you defending your town-read, you don't have to comment on him" and the answer to that is simple and something you KNOW is true and that's letting town reads get lynched is the worst play possible.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Sigh, was going to just instantly respond telling you that your post is a bunch of shit but I took a break and calmed down and while I don't think Empires minds changed on you (He's gone to bed) and while I still don't see anything in your play resembling your town play I can see a few minor town-tells in the debate going back over it, will need to talk to Empire about them but if you're town then I urge you to read the entirety of this post carefully please. You're downplaying the town read on Jacob to something far less than it actually is. It's not solely an effort = town thing at all. Take a step back and re-ISO him reading his posts in detail and judging whether you think his scumhunting, thoughts and posts are genuine or fake because fairly positive anyone actually looking at his play objectively would notice that he's town - if you need an example take a look at Empkings replace in where Jacob is on a whole another tier because he really is that town. I've tried to tell you specific comments, posts and lines of his to look at and you're not looking at it so please, go back and look at him. Then if you still think he's scum you'll have to explain in detail to me how his play is fake or ingenuine because your interaction based case is incredibly weak.

I haven't 'ignored' your evidence at all - Likely regardless of how strong your case was it probably wouldn't have changed my read on him, with that said I did sit down and take a deep look into your case on him and it's a case where a lot of scum-tells are hinged on a prior thing being a scum-tell which is based on a prior thing being a scum-tell which is based on an inital comment being a scum-tell and that comment being something that is rather null or at least can go both ways. I know that you're saying you've looked into this and 'evaluated' but I don't think you have, or at least not properly. And frankly while what I may be doing is 'shoving' my town-read on him down your throat it's very rare that I get town-reads that are that strong and in those cases I don't hold up on them, if they're getting voted #1 priority is to do whatever possible to prevent it. If you need examples of where my strong strong town-reads have been right I'll provide them but I think if you're town just reading into Jacob alone will be all the proof you need.

And if you need more than my cases that I linked on why Toon is scum here's him posting elsewhere on the site and not even a mention or post in this thread.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

NeroCain and N, PlanB isn't going to get lynched, you should move to Toon.

so there is going to be a ceasefire on the wall war then?

Maybe. I make no promises though.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I need to have a discussion with Empire about this game when he wakes up by really think we need to take a step back and reassess, we have a town-read wrong somewhere it seems. I don't think it's UT though. Plan B and Jacob, let me know what you think of Dooms final comments to UT at the end of D1 because we're both very confident that the interaction doesn't work from partner-to-partner. Initial instinct though is that Adork or N might be the way to go today but still have to talk with Empire about F-16 some more because last we spoke he didn't fully agree with the town-tells on him that I have.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Out of all the votes and wagons today the only one that I think really has a decent shot of hitting scum is Adorkable; Their prod-dodges and "We'll do X later" and "We'll do ISOs" and "We'll do VCA" just read as empty promises and attempts to float through the day and given that I'm pretty sure that Toon vs Jacob yesterday were both wagons on town I think they'd try and restrict their activity there. Also think the vote on Doom with no follow through and the next days 'Told you so' was distancing, attempting to grab credit there as town makes little sense given they never attempted to 'tell us' or get a lynch on Doom.

Vote: Adorkable

Two things come to mind. One, now that Nero Cain is known Town, it's clear that DoomYoshi was able to deal out misinformation about Town players. If that's the case, it doesn't stretch credulity to believe he'd distance from a partner. He picked up the lurking thing against Untrod Tripod from your post followed by Untrod Tripod's answer. So, aligning himself with you in that way against a partner is not out of the question. Day 1 was almost over, so there was no real danger of creating a wagon on Untrod Tripod at that time. The second thing, and what gives me the most pause, is

DoomYoshi's use of the word "being" as opposed to "claiming". That does seem like a slip that reveals that Untrod Tripod is Town, or at least not partnered with DoomYoshi.

For them to be partners, DoomYoshi would have had to intentionally use that phrasing with the hope that it would preserve Untrod Tripod. That's something of a stretch, I know. I'm not sure that's enough to get me off wanting to lynch Untrod Tripod, though. I do think there's a high probability of scum in the five unknown alignment players I mentioned earlier, and Untrod Tripod is the scummiest of all five of you from my perspective.

It's not the fact that he shows suspicion towards UT that makes me think he's not mafia but rather the manner and tone it was done in - the bolded is very much what I'm talking about. I don't see mafia talking to a partner like that and the whole thing really really points strongly to UT-Town for us.

Also heads up: VCA is very very much overrated and generally quite useless. The only time when it really has some effect is when a strong scum power role is lynched ect. but with a town lynch it's rather inaccurate to use. I've seen D1 wagons where it's all town, I've seen D4 wagons and lynches where it's all town. I've seen all scum on the D1 lynch before and I've seen all of them voting together D4. So I think your 'Out of the 5' is something you're giving too much weight towards.

Empire, you should probably post and give your reads. Right now, all I hear is Regfan saying "Empire is saying this, Empire is saying that, etc."

I'll get him to post tomorrow when he wakes up. I generally tend to just jump in and post our thoughts rather than letting him do it.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Empire, you should probably post and give your reads. Right now, all I hear is Regfan saying "Empire is saying this, Empire is saying that, etc."

Hi.

As it should be apparent from our posts, F-16, I think you’re scum. I’m actually reasonably confident you are. Your play here is miles off from what I’ve seen in games like Stratego I and Mafia in Triplicate. In both those games, you were very open minded and considerate of every angle (see: Stratego, where you went from initially townreading MoI in your first catch-up to eventually voting him in the second). Here, you basically decided early on that Jacob was scum and tried to pivot everything off of that especially off of things that you’ve admitted to be alignment neutral at worst. The entire case reads like you’re trying to shoehorn scum intent into his posting. I find the notion that you have/had so many null reads hard to believe as well (compare the catchup here to your catchup in this game – I think the difference is clear).

As far as adorkable is concerned, I very much agree with Regfan’s vote and reasoning. To add a little more, both heads have been posting pretty prolifically elsewhere as you can see here and here. Something else to note – one of the heads posts that they’ve had enough time to watch two seasons of a TV show yet they claim to be too busy to post here. If they watched two seasons of a TV show in a week, they cannot possibly be so swamped that they can’t get to this game at all. I think their excuse of "not being able to get to the game at all" is complete bullshit - they

have

been together and they

have

had some free time.

I was on board with N-scum until I checked out his first, recently completed scum game. Regfan and I were both proceeding under the assumption that N was lurker scum here but his super tryhard attitude in that game gives me pause. It’s possible N’s just a guy who is overwhelmed by the size of large games generally hence his low content here.

Jacob, Plan B, 4nx, Empking, and UT should still not be lynched.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

RC, we both found Post 600 very 'wtf' from you. Empkings reads list is in Post 337, you claim to have a strong town-read on us which makes his prior Senjai scum-read wrong, Piggy flipped town thus it's a read wrong, Doom was correct and UT I'm fairly sure is also wrong but lets say for the sake it's in the balance. That means his reads at the moment are 1/3 correct re; scum-reads so you just brainlessly sheeping him for 'good reads' isn't like you at all.

A)(In order of how they were in the post)
1) Nero gets suspicion because they did that. (But dies N2 so w.e)
2) UT is clearly town. I'm still deciding what that implies for DY but given the scum read on Emp i'm actually leading town there too and probably UT/DY should reassess each other, neither of them are helping town whilst probably both being town.
3) Town: DoomCore, UT and probably DoomYoshi

B)1) The Gentleman-B slot and the 4nxi3ty slot look like they need rope; super sketchy jumping the Nero wagon for the Piggy wagon.
2) Day 2's lynch just makes me want to heap the rope on GB and 4anxi3ty.

Starting with A1) shows that you've seen who dies and the manner and timing of where you put it in there shows that you've learned through looking at the OP rather than just bumping across it when reading through the game later. And if you've looked at the OP you'd have realized who else was dead - DoomYoshi and DemonCore however you list both of them as alive. Not just that but you've listed DemonCore as DoomCore, the entire thing comes across as a very forced attempt to fake-town-tell by 'pretending' not to know who was dead.

As for B) again if you'd have caught up properly you'd have noticed that we replaced in two days or so before the deadline with our predecessor having his vote on Nero whereas we didn't share the scum-read that he had on the slot but rather had a scum-read on Piggy, something you said earlier in your post that you'd have likely shared in the situation. So you attempting to claim to find our 'move of vote' towards Piggy upon replacing in as a scum-tell makes zero sense whatsoever and is just you bullshitting reads and pre-planning to push back on us given that we'd put a case against your predecessor. Factor in that 4nxiety is also pushing your slot with us and you've just claimed scum-reads on everyone pushing you.

1) Empire, your suspicion on me based on meta doesn't make sense as you haven't actually linked a scum game of mine. I play differently as town every game. Lack of a scum game for comparison invalidates most of the meta research.

2) Regfan, why do you feel that scum would restrict their activity when there are two wagons on town as opposed to at any other time? Not sure I follow that logic as that seems to be your case on the adorkable slot.

3) GB's 442, you ask Empking why Empking finds UT/DY interactions scum-scum but why do you choose to ask that question to Empking as opposed to asking the question to UT about why he feels that Emp/DY team makes sense? As far as I can see, UT is the one who was pushing DY/Emp far more than Emp was pushing DY/UT pairing. Makes sense to pose the question to UT, doesn't it, if not to both players?

In regards to 1) you do have a scum-game that we're comparing your play to (Hint; It's on your main) and he thinks your play resembles that more than any of your town games by a mile, if you want us to link it we will but figured we'd show some restraint and not just post it. Re: 2) When there's two town wagons that means that if nothing were to change throughout the day then scum have avoided the lynch for sure, it's a guaranteed thing however if something changes then odds are at least one of them remain and can be pushed through from scum, that means they don't need to do anything drastic throughout the day and instead can just make sure they don't fuck themselves by going against the grain or putting themselves in the spotlight. In situations when it's not competing town wagons though then scum are in risk of being lynched and thus have to be active to attempt to avoid it or manipulate it to save a partner. 3) is something that should be fairly obvious; I don't think UT would respond with anything worthwhile nor change his mind, I consider him relatively useless whereas I know Empking actually plays logically and second thinks things when he's not completely set in a tunnel.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Been busy with final exams coming up next week and the other head's been away, will get a post in replying to Nostredeus soon but suffice it to say that his posts should pretty much be cementing your votes that way.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Empire was meant to take over this game for the weekend while I was busy but he seems to have got swept up in finals studying plus he's a lazy ass so I'll get to this game in a few hours. I do have a few offline snippet messages from him though which just amount to him still being very confident in Nost-Scum and harbouring paranoia about RC - he can expand on those himself if he turns up in the next day or so.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

The game that was eating up all my spare time is finally over so now I'll have plenty of time to get to this one tonight.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Elements of Nosts Post 646 specifically the last paragraph and "If you can't see why Emp needs rope we've got more problems than me posting a mistaken draft" comes across as genuine frustration. Need to look at it again when it's not near midnight but for now I'm not as confident that the slots mafia. I want to do a massive go-over of a lot of players in the game because right now my PoE means that I have one or two things wrong likely and need to work out where it's at.

Unvote

F-16, can you explain what happened to your strong scum-read on Jacob, it seems to have dropped of after yesterday; does it have to do with you just being more confident in Nost being scum or did you actually listen to us and re-read him in a different light noticing the genuineness inside his posting.

PlanB, of DemonCores list in Post 425 out of everyone there that's still alive the person I'm most confident about being town is UT or N. Regarding UT I think you need to really think a lot more on the interaction between Doom because while I know you're stating it's your only hesitation it's a relatively big point to him being town plus his play and interaction with us after D2 onwards comes across as town, don't think he'd be 'ignoring us' if he was scum and we were town-reading him. And regarding N now that Black Flag Mafia is over where N was scum that game combined with the other scum-meta he prior linked point heavily, and I mean heavily towards him being town here. I'll explain the difference in his play here vs there if you want in detail tomorrow but I think skim-reading his ISOs in the other game and then re-looking at him here should suffice in showing that he's probably town. So that means on the list we're looking at likely scum inside of RC and Adorakble (Nostredeus) so want to hear your thoughts in quite some more detail on those two because I'm growing less certain on my reads inside them at the moment and now that Empires vanished for exam period I'd rather hear have somewhere to bounce reads of.

RC, I have no issue with you taking into account your town-reads reads but the degree you're weighing them above your own is the issue I have and sure I'd love examples of you doing that as town in the past so if you remember doing so in any particular games then link me the situations. And I'd like an updated reads list from you or at least the scum->town thing you do with a little bit of reasoning behind the stronger reads. Need to understand where your heads at and see if I can follow your line of thought at all. Also I know this is an odd kind of question but can you explain what you think the difference between your scum and town meta is.

---

So A rests on the assumption that I read the OP made up some crap about Nero that just happened to be what my slot thought then miss spelt demoncore even though it explicitly says the correct spelling in the OP and then tried to leverage that? Yeah, err, okay then... Alternatively I might have miss spelt demoncore because there is a player called doomyoshi and I've just read 25 pages in a ridiculously short period of time. But w.e I'll let the town decide which is more likely. If B was true why would I be voting for empking right now? I'm sure you've got something convoluted to say about that too right?(As for the vote swap based on your predecessors, that's nice for you but to paraphrase another player from a different game "This isn't church, the sins of the father aren't absolved because you replaced in".)

I want you to slow down and explain all of this in real detail for me. Help me understand what I'm missing here. You replaced in, looked at what page first? 1? The most recent one? Looked at the OP? Typed your post, then looked at the OP? I need to understand the order in which you did things here because you knowing that NC had died means that you should know that DoomYoshi and DemonCore had died too so your reads on them and commenting on them but not on NC comes across as a fake attempt to town-tell. Sure, lets say the typo is nothing - it was a weakish element to why we suspect you anyway and much smaller than what you attempted to make it out to be in Post 633 of yours. Okay; lets say your scum-read on 4nxiety and us isn't based solely on us having a scum-read on your slot and pushing it, explain to me slowly why you think we're scum because the scum-reads and your entire reads come across as just an OMGUS and attempt to de-credit your attackers, stating 'voted x/y' or 'your predecessors sins are yours too' doesn't explain any of it. At the same time you can explain your read on RC that you've been avoiding that 4nxiety has requested. Also about your Post 646 where you're stating that Empking had no justification for voting Doom. In Post 450 he stated there's very likely scum inside Demons list, in Post 453 we pointed him towards our Toon scum-read explanation and told him to join us and that he should look at our read on Toon. He followed up on that and voted Toon in Post 476 so I don't think his change of stance on Toon is that bad at all.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

We're not lynching UT or Nost today. I need to reasses on a few other people today, will be doing a stack of reading tonight and want to look into a little bit of meta onto two or three people but everyone needs to unvote, state their thoughts on others and all up increase the content in the game. Right now there's far too much of people coasting along and being just active enough to dodge prods.

It is more of an appeal than a frustration. the more you doubt Nost the more likely UT is going to get lynched, just so you are aware.

I think it's actually genuine, as is his recent posts and I got a message from Empire today with him saying that he thinks Post 652 is townish and I completely agree with him on that. And really, I don't want another day where it's two wagons that end up being on town so I rather step back, reassess and read everything rather than just pray that my doubts are wrong. Also the attitude of 'unvoting means other wagon goes through more' is bad, there's plenty of time to go today. And yeah, just finished reading through Nosts Post 658 slowly and holy fucking shit that's genuine. It also explains a lot of his stances and comments that he made in his catch up post and the 'wanted to put himself in the game as if he was there when reading it' is a massively town thing to do.

Oh and N, your play

is

that different.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

F-16, I take it that your avoidance of answering N's question about N1 report means your 'investigated Jacob' was just a way of saying you re-read him.

4nxiety, I wish I could explain this much better because it's not just a gut feeling about his posting but his entire reaction towards being lynched, and while it may be a 'don't do it' sort of appeal it's coming across in a manner where he feels desperate and alone and wants to point us in a direction after his death re; empking and that entire angle feels very town. I haven't forgotten Adorkables posting but at the same time their posting was just 'bad' and I'd throw ToonFighters posts into the 'bad' category and we were wrong on him too so while their posting might be disguistingly bad I have too many reservations from Nosts replace in for that to be a good lynch at all. And momentum means nothing, there should be no 'lock' between lynches, we desperately need to lynch scum today and that requires everyone to open their mind and actually share and discuss thoughts rather than locking their vote down somewhere.

I have a few hours of this afternoon/evening and will be getting a mass-re-read done then. Should have my thoughts and reads up tomorrow morning.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

F-16, we were the only people to have unvoted other than N so I don't think it's a case of him 'sheeping others' but rather seeing Nost as town. Also I don't think 'holding back information' is a good idea at all. It's a concept I've never really agreed with; Scum already have signficantly more information than us so every piece of information we get even if they get it as well bring the ratio of information known vs information not known closer to us having the advantage.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Finishing up on some work stuff and then I'll be unloading a bunch of thoughts that I had from a discussion with Empire. Apologies in advance if it's a massive wall.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hopefully this will help settle me down and help work out where I've gone wrong because I have too many crack pot theories and scum teams floating around in my head at the moment. So if parts of this comes across as difficult to understand feel free to ask us to explain it in more detail, it'll probably help us sort things out as well. Last thing I want is this game to devolve into a game like Slaxx's Flame Warriors and elements of it is already starting to seem that way. I've tried to make this a bit more reader friendly because after my last game I got some comments about people not reading my 'block of text and walls fully' and at this point if anyone disagrees with any of these reads or the reasoning behind it we need to know as soon as possible. Scum lynch is seriously badly needed.

The one thing that we are completely certain on is that no matter how much paranoia is impacting our alternate reads

Jacob is town

. So that means straight away we're at the following

Jacob,

N, 4nxiety, Empking, Plan B, RC, F-16, UT and Nost

. Working through that one at a time:

N's meta here in comparison to his scum games point towards him being town, as does his interaction with DoomYoshi in Post 85 and Post 87. His reads and 'it'll be good for me to write it down' in Post 471 is also a fairly strong town-tell. So all up I'd say

N is town

and move onwards.

Anxietys Post 264 of 'If I die tonight I think Toon is scum' is still a decent town-tell and his reads earlier on Senjai, Jacob and N are minor town-tells too. Not sure I like his lack of reads stated on other players though, no comment on his opinion of RC until he starts pushing him and no read whatsoever on Plan B, F-16 or Empking as well as a few others. So all up I

lean towards Anxiety being town but want to talk with Empire

about him when his exam finishes tomorrow in more detail.

Empkings noticing and stating that Jacob is on a whole another level of town in Post 337 is a relatively decent town-tell. As is his Post 338 comment of 'Seriously, Thea' it's a very natural way for him to play as town. His pointing towards DCs list as well as willigness to re-look at his reads based on it is a decent town-tell. Also from memory his scum meta is a lot more intense than this. All up pretty willing to say that

Empking is town.

So updating:

Jacob, N,

4nxiety,

Empking,

Plan B, RC, F-16, UT and Nost

.

Sorry, I don't have time to finish doing the reading and elaborating on the rest as crickets in the morning and I need some sleep but I'll finish this tomorrow when I get back from it. Long story short though is I want to make sure that I don't have anyone in a massive blind spot and want to look into Plan B because of it - also the vig ect. rambling is a long story and hard to explain but the gist of it is that if it was a vig that shot DY N1 then odds are it isn't a 1-shot vig meaning they would have shot last night but given there's only one kill either it was a doublekill on NC or someone was roleblocked. We think it's slightly less likely for scum to shoot NC so fast given a lot of people suspected him but can kind of see a vig shooting him or a sk shooting him. That means the scums kill is missing and we looked at NCs ISO and the person he makes the most sense roleblocking is Plan B so yeah really want to make sure we haven't blind spotted scum this entire time. Short story of the rest is that I'm leaning townish on RC overall mostly because his play here ressembles his town meta and I need to re-look at Nost but still feeling he's town but again need to look into the whole thing a lot more. And short story on F-16 is that we think he's scum here, none of his play looks like he's actually attempting to scumhunt but rather coast through the game which is absolutely nothing like his town-meta and he's been posting a lot elsewhere and I mean a lot. We had a mini convo segment which was that Plan Bs strong town read on F-16 looks entirely misplaced since the entire basis is 'he has different views' when his views aren't that different at all and that having different opinions isn't a town-tell, can see scum town-reading a partner that way. And woops, just realized none of this is a 'short story' at all. I really need to work on culling down.

Spoiler: Random unfinished notes

[READ INTO] Need to look at Plan B - potential that if vig shot NC that NC would have roleblocked Plan B(?) making Plan B scum in that case. Like a lot of his D1 posting and his reads though but his town-read on F-16 and the strength of it comes across as misplaced in a way that doesn't make any sense - look back into F-16/Plan B interaction. Plan B scum would also explain what we're missing at the moment but seriously need to focus on reading into this.**** [/]

[READ INTO] RC, metawise I think he's playing slightly more towards his town meta here, his post of reads and reasoning behind 'X is good, Y is good, Z is good' comes across as a lot more of what I know from him as town. Need to look at his interaction with F-16 too. Also need to check to see if Empire still thinks he's scum* [/]

[READ INTO] F-16, the "Jacob is town" "Not explaining more to draw nightkill" feels very paper thin, it's very obvious that he's not an actual investigative role, if he claims one he's scum without a doubt* and I don't see him thinking that the 'gambit' would actually work as town. Feels a lot more like scum attempting to do that hoping it'll draw peoples willingness to lynch him of a little more. He's playing super to his scum meta here, avoiding this thread but posting prolificly elsewhere, entire push on Jacob was trash but not sure of the complete scum motivation now that Toons town behind it. Feels very very very much of, will let Empire metarape him though if he still thinks he's scum*]

UTs interaction and conversation with DoomYoshi in Post 412 and Post 413 still comes across as DY slipping revealing that he knows UT is town every time I go over it. I also think UTs play after D1 matches his town meta a lot more closely and find his angle of discussion such as 'drop the attitude it's one scum have ect.' in Post 445, Post 452 and Post 619 are decent town-tells, as scum he'd be happy that we're town-reading and defending him and wouldn't be trying to decredit or shun us. And while I think he's wrong his whole Empking and DY are buddies ect. that he was pushing on D1 and D2 is a town-tell. So overall

UT is town.

[READ INTO] Nosts predecessor adorkable reads as super scum, their excuses for dodging this game were blatant bullshit but not sure if they'd flake like that as scum given what a good position scum seem to be in, need to look at their scum meta a bit more to see if Pies more interested in scum or town but I think I replaced him as scum in Nikandors game that was abadonned. Nosts posting though comes across as super genuine as is the way he's approached the pressure today but SERIOUSLY need to look into him because if he's town than DCs list is fucked up. [/]

Ok. So that leaves me with:

Jacob, N,

4nxiety,

Empking,

Plan B, RC, F-16,

UT

and Nost

.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Yeah, that's a complete mess of a post. Hopefully you can follow the gist of what I'm saying in it though.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hey, I just got back from my week long absence due to exams. Only got to talk for a little bit with Regfan but I'll make a post here in a couple of hours sharing my thoughts. The thrust of it will be this: I really don't think an RC or UT lynch is the way to go at all and would much rather lynch F-16.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Ok only have a very small amount of time to put this together, literally being rushed out the door right now. I've been catching up on and rereading certain players - here's what I have so far:

Jacob is still a very strong townread and should never be lynched ever. Feel also pretty strongly about Empking being town for the reasons Regfan mentioned. UT doesn't make much sense at all as DY's partner as we've been saying over and over (Regfan summarized it pretty cogently in #707).

The more I'm looking at RC's ISO the more I think he's actually town despite the weirdness of his play. As scum, RC tends to care a lot more about the image he gives off and about looking really pro-town. Take a glance at #319 and the way he describes his N FoS and compare it to how he targets CDB in Micro 34. In the latter, I see him as trying to play up CDB's scumminess and here I don't get that impression at all with regards to his FoSes - I think as scum, he'd try to play up his indignation and try to grab some cred. I just don't see him being as image conscious here. Him being super unmotivated also points to him being town - his self-meta in #694 is very much on the mark. He tends to lose interest very quickly as town which matches his play here. Also, as scum, he's very much concerned with setting himself up against someone at endgame (see: Equinox/Kondi in The Chosen One, MichelSableheart in Micro 34). What similar strategy is he employing here? (I don't see any).

Rereading 4nx, #264 still looks like a pretty slam dunk towntell given DY's flip. Only problem is that it seems to come a bit out of the blue and his justification for it in #295 doesn't seem to support that kind of read ("some of Yoshi's comments about me felt off."). Interaction-wise, he doesn't fit: Looking at DY's ISO, the entire "fishing" accusation in #286 + #300, and #404 ("4nxiety's vote switched wagons directly. I am still trying to figure out what this means, but it seems like an opportunistic as hell wagon.") doesn't seem to be him addressing his partner.

Adorkable's posts are still pretty fucking terrible and that slot makes a lot of sense as scum given that they were on DC's scum list but I agree in that some of Nostre's posts feel genuine. Regfan's probably much more capable of explaining why than I would since I haven't given him as close of a read as I have some of the others in the roster. Only skimmed Plan B, don't think his strong townread on F-16 makes much sense but I gotta give him a closer read too.

Still think F-16 is scum largely for the reasons I laid out in here. Will lay out a more detailed explanation later tonight since I really don't have time right now.

Would greatly appreciate it if people would at the very least hold off on the hammer until I get back. Something is off here and I want to make damn sure it's figured out.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Only have a few minutes but will be printing out a bunch of the reading I need to do to take with me on the train (It's 2-3 hour train trip) so hopefully I'll be done all of the raeding by the time I get back on tonight.

@ Gentlemen Bastards

If you're right about Untrod Tripod, Nostredeus, and N, it means that RedCoyote was the only read Demon Core possibly had right in his final list. And, of all of them, that was the most throwaway read. I know Demon Core wasn't necessarily killed for accuracy of his reads, but scum killed him for some reason, and if he was that wrong, then why?

@ Gentlemen Bastards

I think you may have talked yourself out of a good scum read through paranoia of getting it wrong. Tell me what you think about the above re:Nostredeus. Your opposition to the Untrod Tripod lynch has caused me to second think my read on him. Mostly, it's the fact that to account for the DoomYoshi interaction, the theory has to get more complicated to fit the facts. That's a red flag when the simpler explanation that they are not partners also fits the facts.

Inside of DCs reads list I'd say my confidence in them being town is the strongest on RC, UT and N rather than Nost. I also did a little bit more hunting and found out that they /Inned for another game so their "Don't have time for the game" excuse to replace out is bullshit. So at this point if there's no support for an F-16 lynch then I'm much more comfortable with a Nost compromise with an RC or UT lynch, I don't think either have any chance of flipping mafia. That said I feel something is wrong here, something is very very wrong. It's possible that it' the fact that I was wrong on Piggy and Toon that has me second guessing a lot at the moment but bleh I'm not confident in that slot flipping scum, it's just a better shot than the alternatives.

As for your town-read on F-16 that you explained in Post 710 it's blatantly wrong. While Jacob had a few people town-reading him there was also a lot of people scum-reading him at the time, quite a lot so he wasn't 'widely considered as obvtown' and him stating suspicion and pushing on Jacob gives him a mslynch later in the game when we're dead and unable to defend him and no offence to Jacob but he's a 'weaker' player and thus easier for scum to get a mslynch on. So no, him pushing Jacob isn't a town-tell in the slightest, it's rather the opposite. Do us a favour and re-ISO F-16 here and then look at any of his other town games (Empires linked some in our ISO or you can just check his game history) you'll notice a massive difference in his play here to any of those. Empires said he'll be going into a massive meta rapage case soon on F-16 though so if you're really lazy you can probably wait for that. But F-16 does not live to lylo, I want that promised to me because I'm very confident that slot is scum and I don't have that level confidence with any of my other scum-reads at the moment.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Oh fuck me. I thought deadline was in 15ish hours and was about to go for a few hour nap so I could get up when Empire was on.

Vote: Nost

About the only lynch that I think has any chance of flipping mafia. F-16 needs death tomorrow though, the 'meta difference' in his play is not just him not having unvoted Jacob which he's trying to make out it is. Read his games elsewhere vs here and you'll notice or hope we live through the night so Empire can absolutely destroy him.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Jacobs browsing the thread right now, that should be one.

So we only need one more vote.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

DV really should have had a 'countdown to deadline' thingy.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

This is what I'm talking about:

I don't see how you jump from that to a conclusion that I am scum here because I didn't change my mind on Jacob just because you said so.

It's not even close to what the meta thing is that we're talking about. None of your play this game has been genuine scumhunting and hunting for peoples true motives, questioning them, pushing for information, stating reads, making sure the game doesn't go under. None of that at all and it's what I've seen you do as town in MORE than one game so it's not a case of 'small sample size' at all.

Also we just need to one of RC, Empking or UT to get online and vote in the next uh 19 minutes.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

No, you really haven't at all. If you rule out posts that involve back-and-forths with us you have posted nearly nothing in the game other than the 'catch up' post that you delayed on doing for a long time. None of that resembles your town play at all.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm voting Nost not because I'm confident he'll flip scum but because the other two wagons are on strong town-reads of mine. There's no good alternative whatsoever. And black flag is a different thing entirely, Arthur was doing the big amount of posting for you in that game plus absta had already conftowned your slot up, not to mention during that game I thought a lot of your play there of posting less was an attempt to play two-games-at-once, in other words I think it was an attempt to nullify your scummy behaviour here by doing it there.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

8 minutes left.

Not looking good.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

You have no proof that I would do anything of that sort in any game.

I don't have any proof but I'm fairly confident it's the case.

And I'm not deadline lynching RC.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Yes, I rather no lynch than lynch someone we're both fairly sure is town.

And "now I feel certain you're scum" you just town-read us about 5-6 posts back and Empire meta case hasn't been posted because he was at his law finals until 2 days ago.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Jesus if anyone reads the last 2 pages and doesn't realize F-16 is scum from it they're incredibly bad.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Deadlines already passed 1 minute ago.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

First of if it's a vig and not a sk then they're completley retarded, both Jacob and UT were incredibly obvtown.

Second of we're lynching F-16 today, end of story. There's no one even remotely as scummy as he is. Empire and I were in the process of writing out a case on him overnight then paused it because we thought there was a decent chance he'd nk us to give himself a chance and didn't want to waste time so I'll put together what we have at the moment and we'll finish it of later.

One of the most important and damning points is the fact that his read on our slot and on us changes depending on what our read on him is. I'm not even kidding, if we're not pushing him or hardcore stating he's scum then we're 'town' in his reads list and when we're hardcore stating preference for him to be lynched then he states we're scum. I'll show some examples, in his initial catch up post Post 478 he states that Senjai reads town to him and that his play is very much from a town mindset. He states that some of Senjais posts - #52 are very pro-town and ends it with stating Senjai as one of his two town-reads. We state massive amount of confidence in our scum-read on F-16 in Post 537 he turns around and says that his town-read on us is dying and that he potentially wants us lynched later in Post 540 and Post 542. Now lets get this right, his reasoning for having a scum-read on us at this point is that he's saying that we're partners with Jacob and that was the sole reason but then on D2 he comes out saying that Jacob is town so that line of reasoning would have had to have died. In Post 726 he states that meta wise and play wise he has a town-read on us, context wise at this point the wagons were something like 4-3-2 on other people and we weren't pushing his lynch. In Post 730 we state a strong scum-read on him and state he has to be lynched and hanged tomorrow, we point out his lack of scumhunting and actual real motivation hunting which he tries to call bullshit (Read his ISO and without the back and forths to us he only has a few posts that consiturte real content, then compare it to elsewhere). In Post 754 he states that he now feels 'certain' that we're scum despite his last mention of us being a town-read on us and the reasoning for it is that we don't want to switch to RC and lynch a town-read just to compromise on deadline. Lynching a town-read has little to no benefit and is actually harmful majority of the time but it was him desperately trying to find some reasoning to state a scum-read on us.

I'll put up the rest of it later.

Vote: F-16

Pedit: EMPKING, not fucking around today, we're lynching F-16. Read his interaction with us. It'll become VERY obvious that he's scum. That said we did a massive amount of interaction analysis with F-16 and others and there's a few things that do point towards him being partnered with Nost but F-16 today and first.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

If the above isn't enough to prove to people he's scum (It really should be) his 'I investigated him' comment in Post 657 followed up by his 'I didn't want to reveal too much information and wanted to keep scum guessing' in Post 679 is him attempting to create a reason or risk of 'danger' to prevent people pushing or vigging him. That being the whole "Oh he might actually be an investigative role" worry when then entire thing is very see-through bullshit, if he were an investigative role with a report on Jacob that 'cleared' him then he would have stated his alternate information and not have been dismissive about requests for it. Especially given that there's a dead watcher will be very very very likely be the only protective role in the setup. His claim and comment there has no town motivation behind it whatsoever - not just that but the fact that he went from strong scum-read on Jacob to strong-town-read isn't natural at all, if he truly did he would have come out stating that he'd re-looked at him, reassessed and realized he was wrong and not just that he'd be significantly more confident we were town due to but he didn't at all, he attempted to slide through the day without elaborating on it or stating anything relevant or helpful towards it.

Not to mention that his Post 724 is blatant self-preservation thinking. At the time there were 0 votes on him but the post above Post 723 was Empire stating that he wanted a F-16 lynch rather than the others, F-16 knows that Empire is super accurate and can make massively damaging cases and knew that Empire having nailed him meant that he had to be open up options for himself to vote, he instantly stated being okay to lynch RC a null-read of his rather than a scum-read, it's not a thought-process or line of thinking that meshs with an experienced town player at all, it's him being frantic as scum.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Oh and Empking, if you're around (Change your vote to F-16) we were trying to work out what the potential setup is re; number of scum, if it's a SK we're fairly sure that it's two scum left maximum but if it's a vig do you think it's plausible for there to be three scum left because balance wise I think it is but it seems very iffy.

Also (Change your vote to F-16).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also just remembered Empire pointed out that Post 316 and Post 317 mean that Plan B is town and I don't have a clue how I forgot that. So PoE is really really point towards it being F-16 + Nost / MAYBE 4nxiety, still want to do some reading into him in more detail.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

F-16 isn't a 'bad player' at all. Take a look at his games elsewhere or wait for Empire to wake up. He doesn't know how to handle us and knows that we're strong at lynching our scum-reads so he's trying to scum-read us whenever we show confidence in wanting to lynch him so he has an out of push-back-on-us.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I don't think it's possible for it be lylo given that there's a second killing role so if there is somehow 4 scum a vig or sk shot hitting mafia tonight brings the game back into balance but we think we have the setup figured out (Or at least I do) and I'd say there's very likely only two scum remaining with it being F-16 + Nost (Still have some doubts on Nost though but deal with that tomorrow).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Yeah, I'm still having massive issues with him. Adorkables play and statements of them not being able to post / discuss things together / get to this game and their replace out due to lack of time followed up by them joining multiple other games read really really really bad but I find that entire bit of Nosts play genuine, it's why lynching F-16 today and then working out what's wrong tomorrow is the best way to go.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Empking is a dead end, he's not mafia. That much we've very very very confident in.

Join us on F-16.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Oh if I haven't read into Nosts meta (Particularly his replacing into games) in the next 24ish hours and Empire doesn't remind me to get to it then remind me.

Want to look how he normally approaches it compared to here.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Empire told me that F-16s scum meta is to buss. Plus the way he just stood on the Nost wagon without really pushing it ever and stating that he was happy to jump to RC so easily works with distancing / bussing partner in an attempt to grab town cred from it later tied with giving himself outtings to jump elsewhere if it didn't kick off.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'll see if I can find the game he pointed out about it in our logs.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

He didn't link a game but said that F-16 faked a guilty on his partner in the game and it had Venrob and Paschedale in it so bussing isn't unlikely from him.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Greetings everyone! Here’s the moment you’ve all been waiting for (took a longer time than it should have due to law school exams but here it is).

F-16 FIGHTING FALCON META CASE:

First a little bit of background information. Given that F-16 evidently doesn’t seem to mind, I’ll fill you guys in on his main. F-16 is rapidcanyon, a user who has quite a bit of experience both here at MS and offsite. As you will now learn, his town play and scum play are vastly different. As town, F-16 is very thorough and probing. He leaves no stone unturned and his reads generally have a lot of meat to them. Tonally, he also comes off as more uncertain in a genuine way that is very difficult for even seasoned scum players to replicate. As scum, F-16’s scumhunting is a lot more superficial and narrow-minded. He is also generally a lot more defensive and reactive. When he pushes on players, there is a twinge of confidence that comes from an informed perspective, which is greater when he pushes his partners. He also evidently loves bussing as scum. After taking a look at several of his games, it’s pretty clear that he is playing to his scum meta in this game.

TOWN:

Micro 57 – Main thing I want to point out here is to take a look at how he approaches replacing into this game. In #219, he details his thoughts on all of the players in the game up to around the first half of the game at that point. He’s never fixated on solely one player. He is also very willing to reconsider his reads in #238, where he switches from finding MoI town to finding him scum for his prolonged and unreasonable push on Carbon. His later case on MoI during their essential cc battle in #354 and #363 is very thorough and actually focuses on scummy behavior/motivations.

Micro 70 – A game where he was town and I was scum (free me-scum meta if people are interested). Right off the bat, you can see a huge difference in his play. In #39, he puts forth some talking points on Shmugen that actually read like he’s genuinely trying to discern people’s alignments and not shoe-horning scum intent into their posts. The way he progresses from pushing on Shmugen to pushing Konowa in #103 and #126 feels completely natural. Generally speaking, as you can see here, he’s a lot more thoughtful and willing to push/pressure and consider every single player in the roster.

BONUS: Open 463 (Black Flag Nightless) – A game where myself, Regfan, and F-16 were all town albeit in hydras. #1018 is his first heavy content post and it’s super in depth and detailed (look at how much analysis this dude puts in for 9 fucking pages). The remainder of his ISO contains the same open-minded and thorough thinking he demonstrates in the other games.

SCUM:

Micro 36 – You can tell something is off almost immediately. His #166 is him tossing out easy reads for shallow reasons. He townreads ShadowDancer, gorckat, and PiggyGal for the most shallow of reasons, focusing mainly on their “longer, detailed posts” and “enthusiasm”. His scumread on njoseph (his partner) is also remarkably shallow, focusing only on his “little substance” though he quickly drops this vote once other options arise. Also to note is his #247, where he rushes to defend himself with shitty WIFOM arguments.

Open 448 – The certainty with which he tosses out his reads in #53 and #81 jive with coming from an informed perspective. I think that confidence reaches a fever pitch in #97 – The certainty with which he expresses his rationale behind his Paschendale FoS (his partner) is, to use his word, “unnerving.” #184 is more ultra-defensive nonsense upon being called out by malp where he tries to shut down the point with hyperbolic rhetoric and bad WIFOM arguments. Also to note is the sheer amount of null/scumreads contained within. His FoS on Venrob in #186 (coincidentally, another partner) is also very shallow and fake. Also, note that he is not above ultra bussing, as shown by his #1150, where he guilties his partner.

Now to take a look at his play here.

Take a look at his catchup posts (#478 + #479). Take a look at his reads list here and you can immediately see something is off. He has a huge number of null/scumreads which is just unnatural, especially given his replace in posts in the town games I mentioned and much more matches his catch-up posts in Open 448. The next thing to note is how he tries to shut down Nero Cain’s posting by painting it as laughable and unworthy of credibility (“I find it funny that Nero Cain…” / “The fact that Nero Cain considers multi-posting a scumtell is hilarious.”), which fits strongly in line with how he dismisses posting as scum. The confidence with which he attempts to push Jacob as scum is also unnatural given how he usually plays as town in the above games.

His case against Jacob in #532, as we have pointed out, reeks of trying to shoe-horn scum intent into Jacob’s posting. He basically admits that everything he comment on in that post is null at worst in #534 and his proclamation that he is trying to present a neutral and unbiased portrait of Jacob’s play in this game makes no sense given the context and the slant behind his posting. He seems convinced that Jacob is scum and tries to pivot everything around that.
#584 + #610 is once again him trying to discredit unfavorable posting (“Right now, all I hear is Regfan saying "Empire is saying this, Empire is saying that, etc." / “Empire, your suspicion on me…”) by shutting down my meta-based arguments pre-emptively. #732 is another attempt discredit my meta-read on him by missing the forest for the trees – yes, him having a one track mind as scum is one of my arguments but it’s one of several. #746 is yet more discrediting nonsense. #754 is hilarious – he knows damn well from Black Flag Nightless that my meta cases take a very long time to compile (especially considering that he knew from that game that I had a busy week that week). It’s just another cheap shot attempting to pre-emptively discredit me before that case ever comes. The rest of his posts past D2 are just basically really superficial attempts to scumhunt – a bunch of aimless questions that really head nowhere and is just attempts by him to seem contributory and active.

#724 – I want every single player alive to read this specific post in context.

THIS IS A SLAM DUNK SCUMTELL: HE HAD ZERO VOTES ON HIM AT THE TIME AND WAS IN NO DANGER OF BEING LYNCHED. WHY THE ULTRA DEFENSIVE SELF-PRESERVATIONALIST ATTITUDE HERE?

Anyway, if you’ve made it this far (~1,120 words), I’m really fucking hoping that you can see the astronomical difference between how he plays as town and how he plays as scum. Hopefully, you’re now aware of how obvious he is and are now willing to vote him.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm not particularly interested in getting into a wall vs wall argument with F-16 since I think it'll kill the little activity the game is getting from other players and last time I got into an argument with scum everyone just ignored us and ruled it out as 'town vs town fighting' without putting any weight into the content of it so I'll go through this briefly and if Empire wants to go into more detail he can. 1) In games not ALL your reads have changed but there have been changes, new information had led you to re-evaluate reads or re-reads did and the reasoning behind the changes of reads allowed us to follow where your head was at, this game there was none of that at all. 2) I can't really comment much on this, I didn't read the scum-games, Empire did but stating that your depth of analysis is 'indistiguishable' is bullshit, everyone likes to think their differences between their town and scum play are minimal but it's not actually the case. 3) The jester game we or at least I treated as a trolololgame and not something serious when reading through it, didn't think meta comparison to it was useful and the other games haven't read. 4) The whole "this is a large harder to get reads than a micro" is bullshit, there's just as much information, maybe the strength of reads might differ due to process of elimination being harder to use at times but you'd still have town leans and scum leans the very same way, you're just making up excuses for not taking multiple initial stances. 5) Self-preservation

is

a scum-tell because while town don't like being lynched they know that they'd rather the lynch be between them and their scum-reads, not them and their null-read which is why you instantly stating willingness to vote RC to prevent your own lynch rather than push a scum read is scummy.

And 6) which is the most important one you've gone through this whole thing stating that Empire is 'twisting information' but refrained from stating a hard-read on us and it's because you know that you can't call us scum and get away with it, there's no chance of you getting our mslynch any-more and stating a bad stance against us will reflect badly on you so instead you're just avoiding just as you avoided my entire case on you, you only refuted Empires meta section and even then you avoided an important paragraph about de-crediting us and our reads and comments pre-emptively.

Okay, wow, that was meant to be much shorter than that. Sorry guys.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also Empire wanted to refrain from stating this because he didn't want to scare Nost of from bussing but Nost yesterday stating a scum-read on Empking, 4nxiety, RC and us, that's four living players that he has a scum-read on yet today he votes F-16. Entire thing comes across as F-16 saying to him at night 'We're fucked, don't defend me we have to buss each other to have a chance". We're lynching one today and the other tomorrow when they flip scum and I really really prefer we do F-16 first because I think once we die he might pull some crap out of his ass to evade the lynches.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Because I'm not scum, lunkhead.

I can't believe Nost managed to squeeze through yesterday. The scumteam obviously had a hand in sparing his life there.

GB has made a strong, steady case, but that's par for the course with them. F-16 is yesterday's news. Nost is what's happening.

Vote: Nostredeus

I would've done this yesterday, but I truly wasn't here. I work a graveyard shift. I didn't check the thread until a few hours after the lynch took place.

F-16 was hardly yesterday's news. The guy only had one vote on him (ours) through most of the day and was in no serious danger of being lynched. If anything,

Nostredeus

was yesterday's news -- he was the one who nearly got wagoned to a lynch. If you think our case is "strong and steady", why aren't you voting F-16?

Would like to also point out that Nostre's #803 is really really genuine which means we fucked up somewhere with our townreads.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I see no mention of you having a scum-read on UT, only see you saying there's nothing unusual between him and DY. There's little other mention of him and your change on Nost was at a time when there was a wagon growing on Nost so your change there isn't 'naturally explained' but rather a sheeping of things brought up by other people. Again will let Empire talk about the meta-based stuff but the jester game is a trollolgame because optimal scum-play is to be playing in a manner that makes the town uncertain whether they're town mucking around or jester trying to get lynched which in turn makes the town play a different level, it's not a normal mafia game at all and makes getting accurate meta of it near impossible.

And you have tried to discredit us at multiple occasions, the 'BoP' thing is just plain crap not to mention that you're now saying that your scum-read on us is based around us being 'wrong' on you which means it's just an OMGUS and given that you've seen us be incorrect as town before it makes no sense for you to have that stance at all. You also avoided stating a stance today, your entire defence didn't mention a read on us and yes, not stating it plainly has a lot of scum-motivation since scum-reading us requires you to actually back-up that read and forces you to 1 v 1 us whereas ignoring it means that you can try and play around the bush.

As for what's genuine about 803, the below is incredibly genuine and means we probably have a read wrong on 4nxiety or maybe RC.

On this: If I'm lynched and when I flip town continue to lynch F-16. (Then move on to Emp/RC)

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Posting to say that it's my birthday today and I have plans both today and tomorrow so I won't be able to post much if at all. I think Regfan's out for a couple of days too. Will get in a full response to F-16 when I come back though.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Haven't had internet the past few days, no idea where Empire is but initial instinct is the claim is fake.

Want to go for a shower, relax a bit and then hopefully get another read through the recent pages though.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Empire here, I've fallen behind a bit. Need some time to catch up and talk some things over with Regfan especially re: F-16's claim.

Please hold off on any hammers before that happens.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hey all, Regfan and I just had a talk about what's been going on this game, our thoughts should be up in a few hours.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Sorry about our lack of activity lately, real life commitments and partying should slow down for a while.

Anyway, had a discussion with Empire and about the only things we're super-super confident in right now is that Plan B, Empking and N are town. I also think Nost is town, Empire isn't as confident as I am about that but his play reads as genuine here and if this truly is his first scum game I don't think he'd have handled his explanation about how he replaced into the game, took notes and them moved them across so well, there's also a multitude of other reasons but I'm exhausted at the moment so remind me to go into it in more depth tomorrow*, if I haven't say 24 hours from now please yell at me to.

We read back and F-16s claim / investigation target makes sense with a 1-shot usage and the blatant statement of 'investigated him' makes sense with a 1-shot cop to a fairly large degree in that it would be done to make sure that the result couldn't potentially be 'confusing'. That said I still don't find his commitment to this game, reads and thought process to be natural or genuine at all so fairly split on him at the moment. Need to devote more time to taking a look at it all with fresh eyes.

Leaning towards 4nxiety being scum at the moment too, I know Empire is still harbouring worries about RC at the moment too but I really don't think 4nxietys intention to hammer before we posted earlier makes sense given his play. He stated I'm relatively spot on reads wise and has a town-read on me but knows I think Nost is town so him being willing to hammer before hearing from us in depth about the current situation feels like scum rushing for a mslynch before the possibility of it evaporates. Also thought looking back at at his DY mention of 'if i die', it was very out-of-the-blue so not sure how that sort of thought process or need to mention that arose at all, especially given that he wasn't voting or pushing or even suggesting DYs lynch at the time.

But for now while there's still a lot more we need to do.

Unvote

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also I know that Empkings already said it but it warrants another comment: We're not mass-claiming today. Tomorrow potentially, but not today.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Now that I have more time (I'm on the bus on the way home so no internet connection so excuse the lack of links and quotes inside this post) I can explain in some more detail where our heads are at (Didn't get around to finishing it but will do so later):

Town

N's play here is nothing like what we've seen of his scum meta anywhere - that being his newbie game, the nightless and a recently completed micro hosted by Tierce, in all of those games there's not a deep deep level of emotional or human connection from his play, there's just him coasting by and not attempting to stop, reassses and look into things. His play this game on the other hand has him elaborating into reads and reasoning behind them to a fairly deep level, doing reserach to find out who was online near deadline and actually questioning people in a manner to get reads. There's a few comments of his that we found extremely town as well, I'll link them in [here] when I get home. - Particularly Post 774 and Post 471.

Plan B is someone I was slightly paranoid about for some part of yesterday but his interaction with DY where DY blames Plan B and says he'll vote him if Jacob ends up flipping scum does not read as partner interaction at all, nothing like it. His reconsideration of his reads to step back from pushing Nero Cain and also again on UT both read as fairly big town-tells as well but all up just from his interaction with DY alone very much happy to rule him out as scum.

Empking is probably the more difficult read to explain but his replace in reads post alongside with the comment of 'really theam' is one of the most genuine things I've seen, it's a comment I expect from Empking-Town and not at all from Empking-Scum specifically as well. There's a few other reads we're pretty positive he's town but will go into that later when I'm back at the internet or I can just pawn of explaining this read to Empire.

---

4nxiety, can sort of understand the 'your reads have lost value in this game' since we've been dead wrong on ToonFighter and Piggy but other than those reads I don't think we've been that far off elsewhere, we were right on UT and Jacob being town as well as leaning towards Nero being town as well. So instead of completely discounting our opinion slowly explain to me what we're missing about Nost. I do agree that adorkable (the predeccessors) play was completely terrible and that their 'called it' mention of DY despite never actually stating him as a scum-read looks like an attempt to grab some cred and their lurky play and excuses for it are bullshit but what about

Nosts

play specifically do you find scummy and the more detail you go into the better.

F-16, we need to see a fuckload more of your thought process and reads in the thread.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Actually can someone unvote please.

I don't even want there to be the possibility of the day ending early. We have 10 days until deadline and there's a lot we still want to clear up and get done.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

In the middle of family birthdays and christmas parties, noticed that Empire is currently spamming our thoughts qt so you probably will hear a post from him soon.

I need to dedicate some time and read through 4nxietys Post 856 when things cool down.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Sorry for the inactivity on my part but this head (Empire) is going to be V/LA up to the 26th due to holidays. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

No one is hammering.

Sorry about our inactivity, tis the season to be busy it seems but I have some time of later tonight so I'll probably pull an all nighter reading through the past few pages and everything again because something really really screams to me that Nost is a msylnch and his above post is again something that is very genuine. I've read a few of Empires QT posts and he's not been much help but I'm hoping he pops on AIM today sometime and talks about this with me when I go through everything. Did do a fuckload of setup speculation about whether F-16s role balances in and i lean towards it being so. Here's a snippet of what I got around to of him when I was on the bus the other day but didn't want to post at the time.

Spoiler: Null and Scum

(This really should be two separate categories but at the moment our reads in this area are very jumbled up, I think Empire is leaning towards F-16 + RC at the moment and I'm just completely not sure but think it's probably 2 of F-16 + RC + 4nxiety since I can't see anyone else as scum)

F-16 is a bleh spot for me at the moment. Going over his play again with his claim explains a lot of the issues I've had with him - the lack of instant long detailed catch up makes sense from a cop that doesn't want to potentially be nightkilled and gives him time to step away from the game, read it and then get the 1-shot investigation in on N2 and his choice of investigation may be really stupid because Jacob was obvtown but it fits with his reads and play through D2. Him coming out and blatantly stating he investigated Jacob also makes sense for two reasons, the first being that him being only one shot would only be something he'd know thereby he'd be trying to draw the kill after using his shot from the mafia leaving a confirmed town alive in Jacob and it makes sense so we don't confuse his investigation report with a different read. So all up his play makes a lot of his play look town, the massive issue I'm having is that I do not understand how F-16 town would suspect Jacob at all nor do I understand his read on us, neither of them make sense from what I know of his competence level and his lack of really pushing for information and analysis to actually progress the game or get a stronger read on anyone or even state strong reads on anyone is really bad. (Laptop seems to be overheating at the moment, will have to get back to this later).

Team:
Batsman (From best to worst):
1. Aldam Rowlands (k)

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Excuse the cheesiness of this post, it's Christmas eve and I've drunk a bit. Okay, lets start at the very begining, a very good place to start, when you read you begin with a-b-c, when you scumhunt via process of elimination you begin with Empking, Arc and N are town.

4nxiety, I finally read through Post 856 of yours and can see where a lot of your points are coming from, just disagree with the conclusions that you're reaching with them. I think Nosts post of 'so i'm getting voted for the misspelling' is understandable given that it's something that was mentioned a few time so while it may not have been all of the reasons for the votes placed on him, him being very 'what-the-fuck' about it is natural. I don't like how his scum-reads change, they're not super natural at all, you're right about the drop of scum-read on us and the lesser of it on Empking but I'm probably partially biased but I think him having read more into us or our posting would have naturally led to a change or lesser of scum-read on us, about Empking though I'm less sure. Initial instinct with Nosts F-16 vote coming out of nowhere was that it was him being told to buss F-16 because it made little sense otherwise, have issues with it for sure but I think a lot of it is him being a newer player, seeing that it's essentially between him and F-16, having a slight scum-read on F-16 and thinking that he's best of voting for a scum-read that has a chance to get lynched instead of just letting himself be the sole leading wagon. Won't argue about that too much because I can see potential scum motivation for him there but all up I don't think it's all that scummy. All up if you think that his interaction with RC + him is scum-scum interaction you should be more than happy to lynch RC at this point, plus PoE is pointing heavily towards him.

Yeah okay, reading through Post 859 right now and I think I'm spot on about why he voted F-16.

As for Nost I really wish I could explain this better than 'genuine feelings' because it's so much more than that but all of the following posts read supertown.

Spoiler:

Okay here's how I do things when I replace in.

First of all I didn't read the OP Alive/Dead list before reading the game instead this time I opened up a wordpad document and started reading. As I go through games I write down my thoughts along the way meaning town get a feel for what I would have thought in those situations versus what my predecessor would have thought. So I started reading (at speed, less than an hour for 25 pages is on average 2 minutes per page assuming I didn't spend any time writing, which I did, or re-reading certain parts, which I did; try and bear that in mind here, post time stamps will objectively confirm this.); as I came to the end of D1 I saw the hammer/lynch of piggy and put my thoughts in the wordpad document (the first comment and the second comment) I also agreed with my predecessor in post #394. The next thing I did was look at the swap from Nero at the last minute to Piggy and think it was scummy (The third comment) which is why you got a load of suspicion from me, I then presumed Nero would be scum too or you two would have had less reason to bail on Nero but that wasn't the main read there it was solely implied; I later noticed Nero got killed N2 and went back to add the bit in brackets to avoid confusion (The 4th comment). I then skipped to the N2 lynch and read backwards since I had a basic impression of everyone already, I really don't need to see every post. When doing this I decided the way you and anxiety pushed for a Toon lynch was horrible, but more importantly the way Empking pushed for it with zero justification and sheeped you when in reality Emp had Toon as a Town read set off crazy alarm bells everywhere (This is why Emp gets added to the scum list). I then came across a tonne of quoted posts of interactions between UT and DY (Who at this point I hadn't seen was dead because I left that bit until last) and interpreted them both as town wasting each others time (which explains the next comment). Emp continued to coast along adding no content (which explained the comment after that) and then I see RC congratulating Emp on a load of reads/votes which Emp didn't justify; it was clear buddying with a tonne of straight up lies about the quality of Emp's play. (Hence the last post about RC)

So that's where I got to with the reads, exactly how it happened. I next looked at the case against my slot and responded before putting down a summary of the scum, FoS, Town reads that I had. After doing this I copy and pasted my wordpad document over to the Reply box and went back and read through to see if anything was missing (which is where I saw my DY mistake) and corrected it in the wordpad; and this is also where I derped, I posted the reply before copying across the new draft, that's where this massive distraction has come from. Then, as soon as UT pointed out the mistake I corrected it and DID NOT leverage any of that mistake to try and reinforce or gain town cred.


Now either that convinces you, in which case yay. Or it doesn't in which case meh you're on my scum read list anyway so I don't expect it to.


As for Emp, all those two quotes show is one really nebulous comment that means very little and is certainly not reason for a vote and one comment that allows Emp to sit on both sides of the fence after the vote goes south. I'm anything but convinced.

On this: If I'm lynched and when I flip town continue to lynch F-16. (Then move on to Emp/RC)

Throws the town into disarray at the lead up to deadline for no stated reason; making sure RC lives and making sure the only outcome is a no lynch or me dead, which as you'll no doubt end up seeing would have been a mis-lynch. The scummiest people in the game are chilling out on my wagon as plain as day; I suppose if I do die it wont all be a total waste, it might get people to look at them.

Awesome, if you think you're right then hop on the RC wagon with me; either way you get to lynch scum right? Only this way I get to put town back on track before I get mis-lynched.

I'd appreciate an opportunity to post once more before you hammer so if you could whack down an "intent to hammer" post I'll drop that in before you do; basically just to collect my thoughts all in one place for town's reference tomorrow to avoid any twisting that might occur. As for my case; I've made my point about RC, there's not much more for me to say here until others chime in.

That leaves 4nxi3ty, RC and F-16. F-16 I really really want to think is scum because his play this game makes little sense as town, he's been obtuse when it comes to giving out reads, stances and really been prod-dodging and low on activity for a large portion of the game, a lot of things that don't reassemble his town playstyle plus the fact that his read on us and interaction with us makes so fucking much sense as scum but with his claim I can see a way that it fits as town especially given his claimage of how he used it. We have an idea on what the setup is though and with mass-claim tomorrow if we make it there we can be pretty sure if he's town or not though, especially when we iron down the type of claim we're expecting to happen.

Speaking of which. RC's whole "Shall I claim" comes across as a PR soft-claim since he doesn't ask as such as VT, he refused to claim as town as a VT in a prior game I think Abarat Empire said and him being a PR doesn't fit

at all

with what we think the setup is. Literally has no chance of fitting, so that tied with the fact that process of elimination with him points heavily to scum and that his play today has been really weird makes him probably the best lynch which is sad given that I was really really hoping he was town and thought he was earlier. But Empire also says that DC kill makes a lot of sense for RC, I'll grab the quote explaining why later but from memory it had something to do with RC being scared of opposition as scum and killing people that suspect him a lot more often then most.

4nxiety I'm mixed on, his explanation behind his Nost scum-read and comment in Post 869 of "waiting on people to start playing so I can move on" is a lot more like what I remember his town playstyle to be like and absolutely nothing like in Eddarks Starks game so not comfortable lynching him at the moment.

So for now;

Vote; RC

I'm going to be doing re-reading of this game in snippets for the next few hours and will be on AIM so Empire message me if you read this.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Woooo. Empire actually turned up.

Anyway he thinks 4nxietys last few posts, specifically the thought process behind his reasoning on Nost is town so RC + F-16 is where we both lean.

Either way RC lynch today is by far the best move. People should start moving over asap so a deadline lynch on Nost isn't forced.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I can't believe Nost managed to squeeze through yesterday. The scumteam obviously had a hand in sparing his life there.

Pretty much anyone that wasn't on his wagon, me excluded of course. It's rare enough for a no lynch, but it's super rare for it to stagnate so long.

The above comments from RC make no sense at all given that the VC was:

Vote Count 3.09

Nostredeus (5)- F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Plan B, Gentlemen Bastards, N, JacobSavage
RedCoyote (3)- 4nxi3ty, Untrod Tripod, Nostredeus
Untrod Tripod (2)- Empking, RedCoyote

Not voting: No one!

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

No lynch has occured.

Which means the only people that could fit as 'the scum that saved Nost' would be 4nxiety and Empking who below;

[

Town

]-------PlanB-Emp---4nx--JS-GB-[

∙

]F16--N---Nost-UT---------[

Scum

]

He claims to have town-reads on making his statement and repeated of it make zero sense whatsoever, if he were town he'd have gone back looked at the VC for analysis and realized that it was only his town-reads not on it, either reassessed his town-reads or retracted his statement instead of restating it.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Yeah, I'd say RC is scum here.

4nxiety, N and Empking, you guys need to move over.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

The below also look really bad, the vote on F-16 to only unvote 12 hours later with information that's provided previously which makes no sense not looking into when he originally voted but instead when he wanted to unvote, it was moreso justification for him to move rather than him moving because of legit reasons not to mention the reasons aren't legit. Plus him sticking F-16 behind two people who flipped town reads as distancing there.

I don't necessarily agree that 4nx is likely town because of that, but I also don't feel all that comfortable with my scumreads right now.

Unvote

;

vote: F-16_Fighting_Falcon

GB, what do y'all say to the fact that DY was pushing C+B suspicions pretty hard throughout the day? You don't think it was too hard?

I'm starting to think Toon might be the way to go today... but I feel like every player I look at leads to grasping at straws to find a solid connection to DY. The thing about Toon is that they had one little handshake early in the game and that was it. I'm also concerned about UT.

Unvote

;

vote: Toon Fighter

Having trouble with scumreads in this game, but I think Toon > NC > F-16 right now.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Empire says this also points to a RC + F-16 scum-team.

Also says that DC actually put legit reasoning for explaining his RC scum-read and it wasn't just paranoia in Post 271

Red Coyote entrance: his analysis didn't ping my scumdar.

(Sorry for the large amount of small posts, just posting as we're talking)

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Go fuck yourself 4nxiety, if Nost flips town like I think he will I'm done with this game, you'll have to hope that Empire is willing to play solo or that scum kill us.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

"Risk a no lynch"

There's four fucking days until deadline, no lynch isn't on the cards at all. Fucking joke of a game.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I clean my hands of this game. Pretty damn sure it's RC + F-16 and that there's little to no way we actually win.

Anyway I'm going to bed before I start spamming the thread with swear words.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

seriously fuck that noise reg, i wanted to hammer nost a week ago and waited paitently because you asked. i even took the time to write out a fucking wall because you asked. and now you tell me to fuck off and say you're not going to play because we might've lynched wrong...

No, the hammer was brain-dead retarded, I just quoted a bunch of his posts that were extremely genuine and his 'state intention to hammer because I want to post a wall of thoughts' meant that if you still hadn't read him as town by that post alone you should be waiting for his other post to read him based on that, but no you go ahead and hammer him. Not just that but we point out a fucklload of things that make sense from RC+F-16 and state that RC soft-claimed when it doesn't fit in the setup making him near confscum if we're right on that but again no, you hammer Nost. Call it a tantrum if you want but I legit am done playing with morons.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

RC and F-16 both just had to fucking sit back through this whole day and let you morons lynch Nost.

SERIOUSLY, read their play today, they're just coasting waiting for lylo. GOD. FUCK THIS GAME AND THIS SITE.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Yeah okay, I need to go and enjoy Christmas. Going to try and put this game out of my head forever.

ArcAngel, since you seem to be reading another thread or no thread at all if we die tomorrow you're voting RC and the day after you're voting F-16.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

F-16_Fighting_Falcon,

Mafia Encryptor

, has been killed Night 4.

HOLY SHIT YES I AM LITERALLY A FUCKING GOD AT THIS GAME

[Gentlemen Bastards]

N, no clue, I'll ask Regfan when he gets back on.

Going to do my due diligence and take a look at C+B's/F-16's interactions with other slots more closely before I put down a vote though I'm definitely thinking RC is the last scum here.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

FUCK YEAH. God that feels so good.

Anyway mass-claim asap.

Encrypter means that scum would have had day talk when f-16 was alive. I have a bunch more thoughts but I want mass-claim first.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Agreed on Empking -> RC -> Arc > N order.

We can go first or whenever others want in that order, just chime in.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

There's two types of weak doctor there can be, either hider (Which we're doubting at the moment) and the other meaning of it is that it protects only one of two kills. For instance of X and Y shot Z and the doctor saved Z, Z would still die. We think that scum shot us N2 and we was on us then.

But we really should shut up about this until empking and rc claim.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Prod dodge while we wait for people to check back in and agree on the massclaim order.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Ok, so I believe everyone has checked back in. If the massclaim order has been agreed upon, I'd like for Empking to start us off, then.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

There's two types of weak doctor there can be, either hider (Which we're doubting at the moment) and the other meaning of it is that it protects only one of two kills. For instance of X and Y shot Z and the doctor saved Z, Z would still die. We think that scum shot us N2 and we was on us then.

But we really should shut up about this until empking and rc claim.

This is...no. Are you saying that Reg said that?

Yeah, that was me (Reg) and no? Pretty sure I've seen weak doctor be both of those in past games.

Anyway lets get a move on with the mass-claim. Empkings first.

Also I want to make this ab-so-lutely clear. No one. Literally no one puts down a vote until mass-claim is finished.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Sure, if it'll speed this process up. We're a VT.

RC, claim.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hahahahahahahhahawhahwhahahahahahha.

RC knew his only chance today was pushing against us and a fuckload of what he just said is literally blatant bullshit. In the middle of a family gathering though so I'll elaborate on it all in a little bit, probably an hour or two.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also fuck holding cards close to our chest, we're pretty sure Empking is a SK, we thought he was a vig, or odd night vig earlier which is why we thought he was town but the flip of 4nxiety and his claim means that it's very very very likely he's a SK. Again more detail later and we think RC is scum, poe alongside with his interactions with all flipped scum and his flip of his read on us now as a pre-emptive defence which is the exact same fucking thing that F-16 did against us really solidifies that.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also reading either us or F-16 or literally anything that's happened in this game should make it abundantly obvious that we're town.

There's about 10 things at the very minimum that point heavily heavily heavily against the possibility of N-scum and about as many pointing against Arc-scum so as long as there's no fuck ups this game (Which Empire thinks Arc might do sadly) this should be a win.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Oh and just a heads up, Empire already knows but we didn't think it'd matter since I thought we'd get nked a while ago but I'm going on a cruise in about three days from now that'll last just above two weeks so I won't have any internet activity at all.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Based on final counts alone, I think Empking and GB clearly look to be the worst of the group. They both stick out like a sore thumb on the D1 lynch. Both are riding Toon on D2. And while Emp was a part of the Nost lynch, GB was a part of that weird, last minute push to get him lynched on D3. I think, personally,

that GB looks worse here. Mainly because that D3 was scramble was orchestrated in large part by F-16, GB's nemesis, and GB had been consistently a supporter of Nost even before D4. He did suspect him somewhat earlier in the game, but on D3 he had pretty much been in his camp.

Why he took such a supportive stand for him on D4 and not on D3 is strange, even taking into context the last minute push on D3.

Further, Nost

was

a townie, meaning the nonchalance of those of us on D3 to lynch him, advertent or not, was actually a town tell. Scum would've been more eager for a Nost lynch on D3. There was no reason for either me or Emp to not jump on that lynch. I can't speak for Emp, but had I been scum, I would've assuredly been here to make sure a lynch went through... because had that lynch gone through, along with another town lynch yesterday, the game would be over.

As I made it clear before, I have to be wrong on one of my town reads between GB, Emp, and ArcAngel. I do not see enough evidence that would persuade me to vote ArcAngel today. VCA goes a long way in helping me eliminate N as our best shot at hitting scum... I think the choice today needs to be between Emp and GB, and I think that choice is GB.

We didn't want Nost lynched in the slightest, we, I especially (Will admit that Empire wasn't 100% convinced as much as I was) was pretty damn sure that he was town and that a lot of his play was incredibly genuine. The legit only reason we voted him on D3 was a last minute compromise with the deadline, something that you said that 'anybody not on is likely scum' which makes your change of stance of 'anybody of is likely town' completely illogical because then you'd essentially be saying that an action that X townie did in occurrence A can be a scum-tell while being a town-tell, ie. your entire line of logic there makes no sense whatsoever, it's just you scrambling trying to frantically throw shit at us. The underlined makes no sense whatsoever; with the D3 scenario it was either lynch no one or lynch someone that while I thought was town we weren't sold on at the time and had a chance to flip scum and on the D4 scenario there was no time issue it was as simple as lynch someone I thought was scum or someone I thought was town which is an easy decision. Not to mention that our change of read on you had nothing to do with you not voting for Nost on D3, absolutely nothing to do with it, in fact we explained why we thought you were scum in massive amounts of detail so there's no way that you'd 'mistake' our reasoning, you're just attempting to manipulate and decredit us, something again that F-16 did too.

Not to mention that while VCA is useless (Though I know that some people believe otherwise) RC is also of the thought process in other games that VCA is more useful as a WHOLE ie. where peoples votes where all game, especially regarding flipped scum and not just of the lynches VCs, him just focusing on that again is an attempt to manipulate information to try and throw shit because he knows otherwise he has nothing to make up about us.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Anyway, will be going into everything else in more detail later. Only just got a minute of from the family over.

We still do need to finish the mass-claim thought; N and Arc, get in here and claim, order doesn't matter as much now.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Alright, Empire here, posting a summary of why RC's interactions with C+B/F-16 pretty much make him obvious scum (not including DY here since they didn't interact much at all). Regfan can feel free to add more to this when he comes back.

REDCOYOTE & C+B/F-16 - A SCUM LOVE STORY:

For readability's sake, I won't include block quotes in this and instead just link to the relevant posts here below.

#255 - C+B's only mention of RC during the time he was here and it's pretty much classic Scum Distancing 101. It's the kind of middle of the road stance (that's not really a stance) scum often end up taking on their partners. The way it's written necessarily suggests he has no actual read on RC and has him as solidly null.

#479 - More lame middle of the road stance-taking, this time from F-16 ("Long quote-stripe walls from RedCoyote - hate reading such posts while catching up. But let's see: Lot of agreement betwen PlanB and RedC though nothing suspicious. RedC is still null, plan B is still town."). Overall, despite having RC as null, F-16 pretty much keeps him in his blind spot. There's no attempt by F-16 to pressure RC in any significant form to gauge his alignment and he provides extremely little in the way of analysis on RC.

#477/#483 - I know Regfan already mentioned this before but it bears repeating - the vote shifts in both of those posts are seriously awkward and jarring. The former switch onto F-16 comes literally out of nowhere, is backed by no reasoning whatsoever, and makes no sense given that he had never previously expressed suspicion on his slot. The unvote and switch onto Toon comes only 12 hours later and backed by reasoning that has zero basis in the events of the game ("GB, what do y'all say to the fact that DY was pushing C+B suspicions pretty hard throughout the day? You don't think it was too hard?"). DY spent most of D1 pushing the Jacob and Piggy wagons; he never voted C+B or pressured them in any meaningful way so there is no reason for him to say that DY pushed C+B "pretty hard". He places F-16 at the end of his preferences ("Having trouble with scumreads in this game, but I think Toon > NC > F-16 right now.") despite the fact that nothing in F-16's posts would make him switch from voting him to keeping him at the end. Overall, the vote comes off as his attempt to distance himself from F-16 and then reach for reasons to switch away onto another wagon.

#611 - One of the few times F-16 directly addresses RC and it's completely banal. Given that scum have daytalk via the Encryptor, it seems likely that RC's comment quoted here and F-16's response was meant solely to set up the latter's cop fakeclaim in thread.

#645 - Again, this is the conclusion of one of the few times F-16 directly addresses RC, this time re: RC town meta. F-16 puts it on his "to do" list but there's no evidence he ever actually considers RC's meta or follows up on the point in any manner.

#794 - RC labels F-16 "yesterday's news," which again is unsupported by the actual events of the game. F-16 was in no danger of being lynched the previous day (Nostre was the leading wagon) and there's no showing that RC seriously considers our case on F-16 - if he thought it was a "strong, steady case" why didn't he just sheep it? Furthermore, as Regfan pointed out, the assertion that the scum team "obviously had a hand in sparing [Nostre's] life" makes no sense. In #694, RC claims to have townreads on 4nx and Empking, both of whom were voting away from the Nostre wagon on the NL day. The fact that he makes the statement in #794 without actually either reconsidering his townreads or reconsidering the statement itself makes no sense from a town perspective. By this point, it should be pretty clear that he's deliberately misrepresenting the events of the game to either push MLs or protect his partner.

#809 - A somewhat reluctant shift onto asking F-16 to claim - it's very likely they had already planned out F-16's cop fakeclaim by this point so this post basically exists to facilitate the claim and drive the lynch away.

Next post devoted to responding to RC's #934.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Alright. Debating whether or not I should claim my actual role, but I figure it may buy me a little more creditability. Further, since we're in a mass claim situation, my earlier (quite possibly too obvious) attempt at attracting a night kill did not work, and I don't think I will get shot should we go to another night phase, I will claim

Bulletproof

.

Disingenuous bullshit claim. #717 happened as you were being run up for a lynch - there was pretty obviously no intention of "drawing a night kill" but rather an attempt to save your own ass from a lynch by softing a PR.

First of, N is not on point to call 4nx's protection obvious. 4nx is on record calling GB, N, and Emp all town. I just went through his ISO, so I know this for a fact. Additionally, although he never really came out and literally said he saw plan B as town, he defended him consistently throughout the game. So, really, we don't learn much from 4nx, unfortunately. To be sure, I'm actually a little frustrated that 4nx wasn't more loose with the information he had. I mean, we can assume that he didn't have enough to finish the game, but it may have made today a hell of a lot easier had he told us whom he DID successfully visit.

Actually, if you had bothered to read 4nx's ISO, he addresses us/talks to us as if he

knows

we're town throughout the entire game (see also: the over the top nature of his townread/defense on our slot in #823 which points to this). His reaction at the end of the last day phase also seems to come from the perspective of someone who knows our alignment. Also, from my understanding (Regfan can elaborate on this a bit more, since I'm still new to understanding how certain roles work), your post makes no sense even if you're trying to argue that weak doctor (as hider) dies if the person they target gets shot (for 4nx to have visited us and have died that way, we would both have to be dead).

Regfan already responded to the VCA, but I want to add one more thing: here's a fairly recent instance of RC manipulating VCA to push for a mislynch in lylo.

I went through the players that these two replaced, Senjai and theamateur, and I found little to hang your hat on. Senjai does do that thing where he throws a little suspicion at C+B (F-16) early on that always rubs me the wrong way, but it's nothing serious in the greater context of his activity, I think.

More disingenuous bullshit that fails to take into account any of our slot's interactions with F-16. We, especially me, spent most of this game tunneling F-16's slot and I even went so far as to create a monster, meta-driven case to push for his lynch. I think at this point it's patently obvious that you're deliberately misrepresenting the events of the game. Bonus: here is DY trying to discredit our analysis, particularly the meta-driven nature of it.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Am here, what do you want to know?

We're massclaiming. Please claim your role in your next post.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Will get to responding to Post 950 from RC in two to three hours as well as leave you with whatever thoughts I have as it'll be my last post before leaving / having internet connection unavailable for my trip. If anyone has anything they want me specifically to answer you'll need to ask before then.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Alright, I hate doing wall-quotes and find that nearly no one reads them when I do so I'll try and keep this short re; Post 950 1) It's impossible for 4nxiety to have visited anyone that's alive and had them been shot as they'd also be dead so the only two ways he'd have died would have been A) Hiding behind someone that was mafia or SK(?) or B) Not hiding at all and just being plain shot. Leaning towards B) being the case because I don't think he'd have taken an unnecessary risk after being pretty much the sole reason we lynched Nost yesterday. 2) You're not wrong that I'm being more emotional in this game than I am in most of my games, I try and hold it back a lot because I find that people listen and respect me more when I calm myself down and try and talk through things clearly but this game has been incredibly-fucking-annoying to put it blunt and given that it's my last game in a while I've decided that I don't particularly care if they think I'm an asshole, that said I have had some emotional games in the past (Flame Warriors especially where I told Amrun that she is a piece of shit and that she ruins games ect. ect.) and it comes out in me a here and there as town, as scum I'm very uh 'unconnected' or 'unattached' to the game I suppose is the word that I'm looking for.

3) You're tip-toeing around calling us mafia or SK - if you were town I'm pretty sure you'd actually be hunting

deeper

into everything and not just saying 'Well VCA has these people in bad positions, lets lynch both of them' but there's no deeper effort from you, instead you're just trying to slip by saying that us thinking ToonFighter and Piggy were mafia is a scum-tell which is something you were also doing; if you were town you'd realize that means that it'd be possible for town to suspect both of them therefore negating the effectiveness or usefulness of VCA but you're not, you're manipulating it to your agenda; see what Empire said about you doing it in his previous game where you were scum too. 4) His 'frustration' with us was because we told him he was a fucking moron essentially, and him responding to that and not 'keeping his tongue in his chin' just means he couldn't step back and realize how fucking dumb hammering Nost was there and instead retaliated.

And wow, that was much longer than I wanted it to be. Anyway while I'm pretty sure it's RC-Scum and Empking-SK and that the game will probably come down to if ArcAngel actually reads the thread or not I'll go over everything one more time, mostly because this'll be my last game for a long time and don't want to lose based on not looking bad and missing something. So I'll get through these one at a time. Then I'll probably take a deeper look at 4nxiety for solid breadcrumbs.

Spoiler: Possibilties

1. N is mafia
2. Arc is mafia
3. Empking is mafia
4. RC is mafia

5. N is SK
6. Arc is SK
7. Empking is SK
8. RC is SK

N's interactions with DoomYoshi in Post 85 and Post 87 is a point against him being mafia, though seem to remember Empire thinking this was a lot of a stronger point than I did. Don't think his interaction with C+B is likely to come from partners either in Post 156, Post 161, Post 162 and Post 195, in fact that entire interaction is super super super super unlikely to come from partners and just from that alone I'm happy enough to rule him out as mafia completely not to mention that his 'What's an encrypter' comes across as very very very genuine in Post 906 combined with the fact that his play here isn't reminiscent of his scum play

at all

means very very very happy to say that 1 is not the case.

Spoiler: Updated Possibilties

1. N is mafia

2. Arc is mafia
3. Empking is mafia
4. RC is mafia

5. N is SK
6. Arc is SK
7. Empking is SK
8. RC is SK

[Gentlemen Bastards]

God I tried skipping ahead and hunting for his crumbs in more detail first and jesus fucking christ he didn't make them clear or easy at all, or not anywhere near as well as he should have unless I'm blind. His comment D1 points towards him hiding behind DY which makes no sense given that he didn't die that night, only thing we've figured is that NC blocked him which doesn't match NC's scum-reads list either but wouldn't put it past him to essentially randomly roleblock and thus means that 4nxietys push on NC or suspicion towards him despite town-reading him late D1 is slightly understandable. As for later crumbs the only thing I can find from him is on Plan B, N and us and even those aren't as solid as they should be. We're thinking that if he did hide last night he agreed with us that RC-F-16 was the scum-team and decided that meant hiding elsewhere is safe and hide behind someone less likely to die ie. Empking explaining his death but really isn't anywhere near concrete.

It's nearing 4am though, so going to hit the hay and finish the rest of the possibilities tomorrow before I lose internet so it'll have to be fairly early on.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm drunk as a skunk (that's the saying right????) been stuck at a 22nd celebration of mine all day forced to drink. Going to see if I can get through another one or two people before morning (Found a way to steal neighbors internet) but might fall asleep during in which case will post whatever is left tomorrow when I wake up.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Spoiler: Updated Possibilties

1. N is mafia

2. Arc is mafia
3. Empking is mafia - Possible.
4. RC is mafia

5. N is SK
6. Arc is SK
7. Empking is SK - Possible.
8. RC is SK

Looking at Empking, he never really mentions F-16, he sticks him in his initial reads list under town with a whole lot of other people but never really comments on anything that he or his predecessor did. F-16s Post 479 has a very fence-sitty read on Empking, the "No idea why Empking has JacobSavage as very town. I still doubt Emp-scum would so blatantly buddy his buddy - but then again, that may be what he wants us to think. And he votes obvtown Senjai - yeah, I am not liking Empking. Could be a chainsaw defense." but doesn't stick him in his scum-reads pile at the end of the post. Empkings reaction to our cases saying that he thinks it's just bad play rather than scummy play in Post 767 and then ignoring us stating that F-16 isn't an incompetent player looks really bad, he kind of tries to avoid the situation as much as possible. Empkings pushing of the Nost lynch at a time when F-16 was in danger also comes across as really bad. His spiel of lynching Nost will clear F-16 and using that as an excuse not to do more really doesn't make all that much sense nor is the lack of reaction to Nost flipping town and F-16 flipping scum. Really interaction wise don't see anything that points against him being mafia at all. Only issues I'm having is that I still find his 'really thea?' comment to be a town-tell but the fact that he's not a vig like we've been thinking he was all game really kills a lot of the town-read we had on him. Killing two birds in one stone; We can see him as SK shooting DY after Piggy flipped town given his initial reads list and we can see him shooting UT (We're fairly sure that scum shot Jacob there) given that he was suspecting him all game and pushing on him, not so sure about the F-16 shot, only thing we can think of is that he felt that he HAD to hit scum and was secretly harbouring a scum-read on him but pushing a mslynch, gets a bit foggy there but overall think he fits as both scum and SK so both 3 and 7 work.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Spoiler: Updated Possibilties

1. N is mafia

2. Arc is mafia
3. Empking is mafia - Possible.
4. RC is mafia

5. N is SK

6. Arc is SK
7. Empking is SK - Possible.
8. RC is SK

This'll be short because we're fairly sure it's not the case but N as SK barely works. We don't see anything in DYs ISO that points towards him being a threat towards N nor is there any hint of suspicion towards DY from N so him shooting DY N1 over pretty much the whole room doesn't make much sense. I think the N1 shot was the SK attempting to set up a vig claim, one they realized they couldn't maintain at this point which requires them to show suspicion towards the player they shot. Also don't see him shooting UT and keeping us alive this long given that we're probably both decently good at reading him so really happy to rule this one out.

Going to take a break and then look at Arc.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Spoiler: Updated Possibilties

1. N is mafia

2. Arc is mafia

3. Empking is mafia - Possible.
4. RC is mafia

5. N is SK

6. Arc is SK - Possible.
7. Empking is SK - Possible.
8. RC is SK

Truthfully Plan Bs interactions with F+16 are really bad - specifically the lack of commenting on C+B and the reasoning behind his town-read on F+16 being "He has different reads and opinions than others and that's a town-tell" in Post 501 when 1) Stating different opinions isn't a logical town-tell at all and 2) He wasn't stating different opinions, a lot of people stating a FoS on Jacob at the time, he was just pushing a mslynch and given that Plan B read Jacob as town F-16s push on him being a town-tell is nonsensical. His "F-16s hammer on Toon was a town move" in Post 570 is something else that I don't understand at all. That said Empire pretty much told me I'm an idiot for even considering that we have the read wrong here (In much nicer words) and says that Post 315, Post 316 and Post 317 never come from partners in a million years and I agree with him so while Plan Bs interaction with F-16 is incredibly bad his interaction with DY rules him out of being mafia.

Moving onto the other front I can see Post 416 being him setting up a vig claim shot on shooting DY so that works. Given his read on UT I can also very very very much see him shooting him and I can see Arc random shooting honestly so F-16 dying there from her is plausible. I also think that Plan Bs SK hunting early game in Post 459 was weird and can see him doing that sort of reasoning for a FoS as a SK and explains Arcs lurking too.

Will get to RC in an hour.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Well given that there's no vig claim and we've gone through everyone I'd say there has to be a SK.

And yeah, not sure why we ruled out Arc as a SK today or never really considered it until now, tried messaging Empire asking him if I'm missing or forgetting something but haven't got a response from him, he's probably asleep. That said I can see Empking SK too.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Spoiler: Updated Possibilties

1. N is mafia

2. Arc is mafia

3. Empking is mafia - Possible.
4. RC is mafia - Possible.

5. N is SK

6. Arc is SK - Possible.
7. Empking is SK - Possible.

8. RC is SK

We've already gone into RC-Mafia and think it's quite likely so won't waste time going over that again but will rather focus on whether RC-SK is possible. From what we know of him (Which is actually quite a lot) he likes removing threats to him or to the game ie. Shooting stronger players or players that suspect him and don't see [DY/UT] matching that at all. Also don't see anything of this that looks like an attempt at vig crumbing to explain a SK nk of DY make sense coming from him.

So end of the day only people I can see being scum are Empking and RC and think RC is much more likely than Empking and the only people I can see being SK is ArcAngel and Empking and which one is more likely I'd have said Empking before but reading back through Plan B I'm honestly not sure and if forced to make a decision right now I'd probably say that Arc is slightly more likely but really really want to talk to Empire before I leave in like 8 hours, actually less.

But summarizing I'd say from most likely to least likely:

RC-Scum, Arc-SK
RC-Scum, Empking-SK
Empking-Scum, Arc-SK

[Gentlemen Bastards]

But serious last time that if you have anything you want me to look into or any questions for me it needs to be ASAP.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also we can very very very very much see Nero having RBed Plan B N2 which explains the lack of second kill there so yeah, Arc-SK is looking likely.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Vote: PLANB

No town SK hunts like he’s doing.

This is NC's last vote and one of his last posts on D2, on N2 there's only one death. It's very very very likely that he Rb'ed Plan B with him being SK thus 1 death.

And talking with Empire at the moment he's agreeing so it's RC-scum and Arc-sk more than likely, happy with either lynch.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Users browsing this forum: ArcAngel9

CLAIM. NOW.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

If you were having a busy week and were unable to keep up with games you wouldn't have signed up for two separate games three days ago.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

And with that I'm off and won't be back until the 21st.

Good luck guys, Empire has all my thoughts but most of them have been posted in here anyway. Do me proud.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Because it's mass-claim time and

everyone

else already has, we've been waiting on you doing so for a long time now.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

How do you know that anyone who claim their role is being geniune?

...that's precisely the point. We're trying to narrow it down any which way we can.

Here are the role claims:

Gentlemen Bastards (VT)
Empking (VT)
RedCoyote (Bulletproof)
N (VT)

All we are missing is yours. For the love of god, please claim your role.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Would prefer RC lynch today but uhh I guess he's being replaced (what the fuck) so we'll see what the replacement has to say.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Why do you think RC is the scum? do you have any strong reasons?

Seriously? I already posted a huge wall about why RC is scum a few pages back here. Please read it carefully.

Also, we are 100% not lynching N. He's town (this is why you should read the game). Please remove your vote.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

^Can we please lynch that guy? I'm not going shed a fountain of tears over AA9 getting lynched since I think she's likely the SK but I'm more confident in RC being scum.

N and Empking, any chance you guys will vote RC? I won't be around until late tonight but I will definitely be around at deadline.

---

Finally, I feel the need to respond to this regardless of AA9's alignment because holy shit:

I wasn't refusing to read the thread, i was seeking help from the town to make the right decision
and whats your reason for suspecting me? oh wait..voting me..?
Isn't the Plan B read as townie.... the change was only on the person not the character.

so this you sudden suspect makes me wonder if you're trying to frame me.

This is why you need to read the thread. Everyone here once was sure that your slot was town via Plan B. Now some stuff has been brought up that makes it very possible (frankly, likely) that you are the SK. The change was not something that just came out of nowhere. You currently have two votes on you. Empking and our slot both also suspect your slot. We literally cannot all be scum despite the change in our opinions otherwise the game would be over. Not everyone who suspects you is scum.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Unless you think he's not actually bulletproof, in which case why would he bring attention to himself by claimin that?

Because he doesn't have much of a choice. He can't claim VT because he softed a PR as he was getting run up. He can't claim watcher, tracker, doctor or roleblocker because they all have flipped. He can't claim cop either due to F-16's fakeclaim. That limits his options drastically in a normal to the point where bulletproof is the most plausible fakeclaim (note, by the way, that he did not even claim X-shot).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Oh and I would also like to point out that this dude fakeclaimed miller as scum in my last game with him (Micro 34) and won so he's perfectly capable of taking the "unconventional, attention drawing" route.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

He hasn't even bothered to respond to the substance of my arguments even though I gave him plenty to work with (e.g., the "yesterday's news" stuff, his consistent misrepresentation of the game state to protect his partners/push MLs, etc.) and just dismissed it with hollow platitudes by calling it a "conspiracy theory" and tried to push a skewed VCA case on our slot in a game where we have had 0 scum lynches. He didn't even bother to respond to Regfan's reply to the VCA either. Is this honestly town behavior dude? Read through my case again - there's a clear difference between not giving a shit and misconstruing the events of the game.

One thing I learned after that game is that RC is more than capable of imitating the same style as both alignments, something he blatantly admitted to in this game (see #694).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

The point that I'm trying to make is that he's certainly aware of his meta and tries to play as close to it as possible, especially given that he's in a roster with both myself and Regfan, both of whom have had experience with him.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Erm, N are you even here right now?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Unfuckingbelievable.

Vote: RC

Keeping this up for now. It's 5 AM and I'm done waiting for N. I'm going to bed and setting my alarm clock for a couple of hours before deadline. If N or AA9 have not hammered RC by that time, then I'll switch over to AA9. Empking, if you want to hammer AA9 due to deadline constraints, then it's fine since I think she's the SK anyway but you guys better fucking lynch RC-scum in 3 way.

In case this slot dies tonight and in case this day's been hammered before I wake up, Regfan and I have posted everything you guys need so you know where we stand. Good luck.