Open 459: There is a New Scum in Town. Game Over Town Wins!

[Lastsurvivor]

Hello everyone!

I will read up, but I'm going out soon so not sure if I'll get anything substantial to you all until later tonight.

[Lastsurvivor]

Nothing substantial, however some random questions to the lurkers (who you guys are totally letting off the hook, FYI).

I'm active lurking??..

Yes. Why do you think you're not?

Breakfast, explain the significance of your questions in #16 and #203.

Fe I have no question for but I just want to point out that out of all the lurkers he's the most likely to be scum.

Uct - The only reads of yours we know are Fizz scum and Aether town. Any other reads?

I'm reluctant to move my vote off Fizz when he still hasn't actually answered the question of whether he's scum. Although it seems more like he's ignoring the question altogether after giving an unsatisfactory response the first time. Scum afraid to draw attention back to it, or town uncertain about how to dig out?

This reads as "I don't have anywhere else to put my vote so I'm just going to justify my current vote even though I feel self conscious about it." You're keeping your vote because he hasn't answered a rhetorical question? The reaction he gave was good enough.

Just to repeat: You guys are letting 5/14 of the game hide in the shadows while you all bicker and dramallama at each other. Hopefully you guys get back on track now that Aether's gone, but the amount of lurkers in this game is too high.

Tomorrow afternoon you can expect a vote and a list from me hopefully.

[Lastsurvivor]

VOTE: Fizz

Best place for my vote now. Rationale is pretty much what other people have been saying. End of post #44 doesn't seem like it's been posted from a town perspective, and he really hasn't addressed that point.

Whats the rationale behind Kmd lynch?

Also I'm not giving out my precious list sorry.

QUESTIONS 4 PEOPLE

Bork - Why did you switch your vote from Kmd to Breakfast? Also, why did you go from defending fizz to saying that Fizz isn't a bad wagon?

NS - If you still think Fizz is scum, then why are you voting Kmd, who is one of the biggest Fizz scum supporters?

the director - Explain why everyone you think is scum is scum.

[Lastsurvivor]

Also, Lastsurvivor is a good lynch too.

Because I'm not voting your scumspect?

Oh I've missed playing with you maj.

[Lastsurvivor]

Why do you think it's a good thing to hold out your list of reads?

I don't have good enough reads on everyone to make it worth posting.

I don't see Fizz as scum by the way he's posted/acted in the second half of his ISO.

How so? In the second half of his ISO he bickers with Aether about how he wasn't OMGUSing.

#119 is not a defense of Fizz, it is an indictment of Kmd, who I think has gotten better since I made that post. Fizz hasn't done anything since except avoid the thread and the little bit of IIoA in #160.

Oh, I buy that #119 is an indictment of Kmd. I'm not sure I buy that it's not a defense of Fizz. Let's look at the post:

All this crap against Fizz is super unreliable for someone in their first game and Kmd is trying to gloss over that.

Looks like you're defending Fizzy based on the fact that he's a newbie. Am I wrong?

[Lastsurvivor]

@LS -- I was saying that there is a plausible (dare I say likely) explanation for Fizz's nervousness other than that he must be scum. That's not an endorsement of Fizztown, it's just something that Kmd jumped on way too quickly early game.

So you're not defending Fizz...you're just providing an alternative reason for his gameplay so that he's not scum?

OKAY.....

Uct I asked you a question can you answer it please thanks

the director I also asked you a question. I'm not sure if you've answered it or not. Also that point about Uct was a joke right?

[Lastsurvivor]

Dude this isn't terribly hard to understand. Being nervous is not a scumtell. End of point.

Sure but that's not really my point....
I guess my issue is -- what caused Fizzy to go from just being "nervous" to being an ok wagon in your opinion?

Lastsurvivor,

I see him as being "man everyone is mad at me, I'll just be quiet". Very newb town who isn't used to using ATE or any other kind of defense mechanism.

I haven't gotten that attitude from Fizzy at all. From him, he enjoys talking a lot, even when people are mad at him. People still thought he was scum when he had his fight with Aether, so I'm not buying the line of logic that he just can't handle the game.

[Lastsurvivor]

Alright fair enough.

My problem was that I thought your reason for the Fizz wagon was based on the nervousness you said was previously unreliable. I just noticed you already answered my question in #243 but oh well.

[Lastsurvivor]

You made a scum team list, of which you didn't explain why 2/3 of them were scum, which really was what I was curious about.

Also, your rationale for Breakfastscum at least makes sense, even if it's not really strong. Your point about uct is incomprehensible, and I think is just about a typo.

[Lastsurvivor]

Like omg you are totes right you totes aren't trying to cover up for the fact you are concerned that a townie is sniffing around a scumbuddy that otherwise has escaped suspicion. Totes bro, brofist. And its breakfastscum now? Lolz totes cool. U p cool bro.

Yeah I covered why my previous scum list doesn't apply anymore. Have fun pouring through my ISO figuring that one out.

Can you please play this game without acting like an obnoxious 14 year old? I'm getting sick and tired of your antagonistic attitude.

Also, no, I don't see why your previous list doesn't "apply" anymore. Why did the list apply at the time?

Maj you're pretty good at getting the lurkers to come out of the woodworks (not saying that in an insidious way).

NS can you answer Penguin's final question because I totally asked you that before and you didn't answer it but I forgot I asked you but now I remembered that I asked you so can you please answer her question thanks.

[Lastsurvivor]

Sorry Rach

---------

While Fe is pretty scummy, post #317 was not scummy at all. I don't understand the reactions to it. Uct, Fizz, The Director, please explain (also the chances of at least one of you being scum is quite high due to that chain of reactions, and I don't think it's uct).

[Lastsurvivor]

the director, you didn't answer my question.
Fizz when you get back can you not ignore me I demand attention thanks.
Fe uh...nice wall. Can you maybe do some synthesis and tell us some of your reads?

[Lastsurvivor]

I am still confused, yes.

You still haven't explained why post 317 is scummy. I understand why you think Fe is scum, so you don't have to explain again, but what about #317 made you call for others to "Lynch this"?

[Lastsurvivor]

I'll answer your question with a question. Why would someone looking for a replacement still be posting?

TY for indirectly answering my question.

But I have to disagree, because you're dutifully ignoring the qualifier "If I can't catch up" in Fe's 317. I.e., Fe said he'd replace out if he couldn't catch up, yet you and the rest of them took it as "Omg he's replacing out watta scum."

Mala: If you read through my ISO you can pretty much see the reads I feel strongly about. And it's not a lot, FWIW.

[Lastsurvivor]

Going to piggy back on Maj's #394. Fe, why did you give Number 6 "town points" if you didn't mean it?

Also, I find it suspicious that you had time to do a VC but not enough time to put forward any content.

[Lastsurvivor]

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Fe is just too scared to post and is trying to keep his head down long enough for Fizz or someone else to become the flavor of the moment.

I'm feeling the same way about Fizz really.

[Lastsurvivor]

I'm back sorry been a little busy over the past free days
firstly, Vote counts = easy and quick , analysis =hard and long.

Secondly those were my notes, why do I have to be serious. If it seems to not make sense then its probably not intentionally serious. e.g. why would being familiar with the songs of Seal be a town tell....

Not every post in the game is a novel. Analysis is not "hard and long." My next two statements are analysis. I do not believe your rationale for making that VC was that it was quicker than analysis. I think you did it because you wanted to look like you were contributing something.

See. It's not so hard, and took maybe twenty seconds.

Secondly, I agree with that it's quite strange that you called that a town tell. So why did you do it? Why didn't you say "Ohoho, u so funny/clever for decoding those lyrics #6"? Why did you give him town points?

Oh, and you've still ignored my request to synthesize and give some reads.

Considering switching my vote but I really don't wanna let Fizz off the hook. <_<

[Lastsurvivor]

Vote Fe and I'll look at Fizz tomorrow. We have scummier scum to lynch.

Huh. Alright.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fe

THIS IS L-1

------

Uct, by the logic of #437, when someone dies in a game, they can't link to it because they died before its completion?

[Lastsurvivor]

Pretty much agree with penguin. And his V/LA expired on Monday (technically Sunday since he said "a couple days" if you want to be particular about it). But he definitely saved his own ass with his disappearing act today. Hopefully it's a real one.

Meanwhile we twiddle our thumbs while Fe stalls I guess.

[Lastsurvivor]

Love it when a bunch of pages pop up while I'm gone.

Firstly what I was meaning is that when I make notes they are generally serious but occasionally they contain non serious points, I ashumed that tjhey would be obvious that they weren't serious and people would ignore them. However you seam to be making far big a deal out of it that it really should.

I just don't understand why you posted those notes without clarifying that they were just raw notes nor saying that certain parts weren't meant to be taken seriously. The second part is somewhat forgivable, but not the first part.

Not really getting Bork's suspicion of Nacho.

[Lastsurvivor]

director why is bork scum

[Lastsurvivor]

No seriously.

You've never expressed suspicion towards him.

Why is he suddenly scum?

[Lastsurvivor]

Here is what I think happened. Fe knew he was going down so Fe tried to help out his scum buddy Majiffy by calling him town leader. When pirate called him out on that, Fe quickly scrambled and plummeted Majiffy to scum with very weak reasoning ... something along the lines of "I read the game again and decided Majiffy is scum". Majiffy then responded by saying Fe claimed scum in an obvious distancing and hard bus.

Excellent point on Maj.

VOTE: Majiffy

Although Mollie's inclusion in the narrative isn't alignment indicative.

Director seems town now that he's not antagonizing people. NS I don't see the case on, for reasons I'll keep to myself until he responds I guess.

[Lastsurvivor]

What are those posts supposed to prove?

Oh, and can you point out which post it was that caused Fe to flop? I'll quote all the posts you made in between when he called you a town leader and when he called you scum.

assuming he does

You know what they say about assuming...

You know what they say about loose asses...

Twiddle twiddle.

None of those posts look like they'd encourage Fe to flop his read on you.

[Lastsurvivor]

I'd sooner vote KMD than Majiffy right now. I also don't understand what Majiffy did that could be considered "full bus mode" that would cause Fe to have dropped Majiffy from town to scum since if he were bussing, he'd have been doing so since #363 and that was well before Fe called him town leader in #456.

You're missing the point.

> Fe lists Maj in town slot, says he's "town leader"
> Mollie says that it'd be funny if Fe listed his partners as town
> Fe suddenly lists Maj as scum

Maj's bussing isn't a cause for the switch. Mollie's comment is. What motivation would Fe have to suddenly switch his read on Maj if Maj is town?

[Lastsurvivor]

he pushed fizz for the longest fucking time and then majiffy tells him to put Fe at L-1 and he'll look at Fizz tomorrow, and he's like "ok that sounds like a perfectly reasonable plan" and now he's sheeping votes onto majiffy. it's stupid and scummy and scum.

I'm not sure what part of this summary of my play is supposed to be "stupid and scummy and scum."

Fizz has been replaced by buldermar, who's content so far is fine.

Am I supposed to think that Maj is town because I agreed with his plan? There's nothing alignment indicative about him telling me to move my vote. I agreed because the chances of Fizz coming back were slim, and even if he came back he would just stall, intentionally or not.

i don't think Fe would realize "hi, I'm going down, better try distancing my scumpartners while going down!"
i think Fe probably put majiffy in the wrong place, got called out on it, and instead of admitting a mistake, defended with bullshit
that seems more like scum fe to me

I'm not buying that Fe misplaced someone he called a town leader, especially since the rest of Fe's final read list was consistent with his first one.

[Lastsurvivor]

Maenara's most recent posts are giving me the heebie jeebies. The arguments she's making look fake...mostly because she's twisting kmd's words and her reasoning doesn't make sense.

Maenara who else is scum besides kmd?

[Lastsurvivor]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Maenara

Get that vote somewhere bloody useful or try actually saying something. I'm a wee bit tired of whole kind of mess. Player X looks at my posts, finds something he or she wouldn't do while town, or at least wouldn't think of themselves as doing, and assumes that this is also the case for me. They vote for me. I get two choices - Defend myself or leave it be. If I do the latter, scum gets an easy mislynch and I no longer have a game to be in. If I do the former, well, I'll be damned if people don't accuse me of being scummy for defending my bleeding self.

I'm glad you're actually addressing the points people have brought up against you instead of going off on a tangent.

O w8.

[Lastsurvivor]

Look at the bloody post I was responding to.

How the hell am I supposed to address "Aaaaaaaah"?

Fair, but I wasn't just referring to Nacho's points.

[Lastsurvivor]

Then quote the relevant post where I don't address said points, while speaking to someone who has actually presented them.

Not really sure what you want me to do past the "I don't address said points," part

but

You didn't address all of Maj's case (specifically the posts he linked to)
And I though there was more but there really isn't. My bad etc.

Uct's reaction to Kmd's vote is lame and scummy.

[Lastsurvivor]

Re KMD's case:

Why is scumhunting people that were on the wagon I was on scummy? And where do you get the idea that I wasn't convinced Fizz was scum?

I mention Fe being scum in my first real post.

Re the L-1 vote: Fe was my #2 suspect all day. If you read the posts in which I question and otherwise express suspicion of Fe (as well as look at my first post linked above), you would see that.

[Lastsurvivor]

First question answers the second.

Not really. When I see something that doesn't make sense, I probe. Should I not have done that because we were voting the same person? It's foolish to assume that everyone on the same wagon as you is town.

The point on Fe is you avoided voting him until he was going down anyway.

So I'm scum because I POSSIBLY could have bussed Fe? That's a bullshit tell.

I switched my vote because I realized Fizz coming back was unlikely. I don't vote replacements based on their original slot owners, so it would have been useless to vote his replacee.

And I won't be clicking links because that's obnoxious to do on my phone.

Here are the relevant quotes from the links I posted in order.

My first post in the game:

Fe I have no question for but I just want to point out that out of all the lurkers he's the most likely to be scum.

Question Fe/bring up suspicions of Fe:

Going to piggy back on Maj's #394. Fe, why did you give Number 6 "town points" if you didn't mean it?

Not every post in the game is a novel. Analysis is not "hard and long." My next two statements are analysis. I do not believe your rationale for making that VC was that it was quicker than analysis. I think you did it because you wanted to look like you were contributing something.

See. It's not so hard, and took maybe twenty seconds.

Secondly, I agree with that it's quite strange that you called that a town tell. So why did you do it? Why didn't you say "Ohoho, u so funny/clever for decoding those lyrics #6"? Why did you give him town points?

Oh, and you've still ignored my request to synthesize and give some reads.

Considering switching my vote but I really don't wanna let Fizz off the hook. <_<

-----

Maenara's Pirate Mollie vote is bad.

[Lastsurvivor]

Thanks for reminding me how scummy you are, LS. Those posts are gold mines of bussing.

So I'm scum because I POSSIBLY could have bussed Fe? That's a bullshit tell.

I stand by that statement unless anyone wants to explain how pushing for someone's lynch based solely off of an accusation of bussing is valid.

[Lastsurvivor]

UNVOTE:

Need to reread this game. Hopefully will do that soon.

[Lastsurvivor]

You do realize that the Fe strategy of "attempting to post but not really post but posting because I'm here" has a bad track record, right?

Ok.

PEDIT: What are you talking about? What the hell does "because KMD wagon lol amirite" mean? I'm not voting KMD. I need to reread because atm I have zero confident scum reads.

Just keep on spewing out shit to plaster on to your weak ass case on me (you actually don't even have a case but whatever. Actually you're sheeping on my wagon even though you've been complaining about how other people are sheeping).

[Lastsurvivor]

PEDIT: *I wasn't voting KMD.
Tenses suck.

[Lastsurvivor]

Coincidence that I just happened to look at thread when you were doing some mental gymnastics to say why I'm scum like...hey...you just did in your last post.

I like to compile reads once I've read everyone, but I can tell you that Bork is town.

Buldermar's KMD vote looks suspicious since he never mentioned KMD at all before that vote and he doesn't provide any reasoning for it. He said he's happy with his vote but still doesn't say why. I'll have to read everyone else before I decide if he's scum or not.

[Lastsurvivor]

I'm doing ISOs and going alphabetically. I read Bork's then Buldermar's.

[Lastsurvivor]

Will respond to Kmd's stuff later but first...

----

In general, I'm pretty sure that Bork, Director, Kmd, Peng, Mollie, Maj are town. They are in order of decreasing towniness.

NS, Uct, Buldermar, and Nacho I could see being scum. Increasing order of scumminess.

NS is generally null but I don't understand his vote hop, as others have said. He goes from saying the Fe lynch is crazy -> voting Fe -> saying he likes his vote where it is -> voting Nacho -> voting Fe again. I don't understand why his Fe vote switched in the first place, because he justified his vote before switching to Nacho.

KMD has basically covered all my gripes with Uct. I don't understand why he defended Fizz after voting him nor his denial of Kmd being an information lynch despite him previously saying so. However, I don't think Scum-Uct would vote Fe so early. I don't see the motivation there.

Buldermar I believe I've already explained. He's nevermentioned Kmd before and yet he's voting him.

-------

Nacho's flip flop on Fe is scummy.

Fe is town, don't lynch him, the lynch is terrible.
Majiffy is probably town, Fizz is a ? but I will vote him to save Fe

Fourth post in the game...note the assertive defense of Fe. If Nacho were town, I would believe that he's read Fe's ISO and the points on him to be able to decide that the lynch was terrible.

#492, #494 are defenses of Fe. #492 is interesting because, although he defends Fe, he also probes at something he said. Normally I would believe that that means Nacho was beginning to doubt Fe.

But no, #496 he uses meta to defend Fe. #504, 506, and #514 he does the same thing. I reference these posts to reiterate my point: Nacho seemed confident in his defense of Fe.

Then, uh...

Thanks 'jiffy. You have my hammer as soon as my replacement catches up. But if anyone hammers before then I will be pretty sad and angry and vengeful.

Oh, now Nacho wants to lynch Fe. All it took was Majiffy quoting things from his ISO.

I don't buy it. Even if you didn't click the links because you're on your phone, just look at the first post I quoted and the last one. In #483, Nacho says the Fe lynch is terrible, which implies that he read the reasons for the lynch and disagrees with them. But in #518, all Nacho needed was a reiteration of those reasons in order to do a complete 180 in his Fe read. I just can't see that course of actions from a town perspective.

For the icing on the cake, #541. Note that this is after Nacho declared his intent to hammer Fe.

Today also isn't about Fe versus Fizz anymore, so it'd be nice if people went back to voting who they thought was scum and not their scumpick out of Fe/Fizz.

Why would he say this if he's already said he's going to vote Fe? Because he wants to take a last ditch effort to call off the wagon on his buddy.

VOTE: Nacho

[Lastsurvivor]

Sorry for long post. TL;DR: Nacho is scum because he flip flopped on his Fe read.

@Kmd:

Last, the fact that you were scumhunting by looking at the wagon you were on makes it look like you didn't believe in your vote. If I see people pile on a wagon that I'm in support of, I'll take note if something stands out, but unless it's scummier than the reason I'm voting where I am, I'll let it slide until the person I'm voting looks town or the other person voting them looks scummier than the person I'm voting. It's possible that it's just a playstyle difference, but it's hard to see you voting someone you think is scum, then questioning someone for voting the same person without a thought of "are they bussing or am I voting town?".

It's a playstyle difference. Plain and simple. On D1 I never think of teams. Also, yes, ISO Fe. It's pretty silly to look for interaction from only one side (i.e., looking at it from players -> Fe instead of Fe -> players).

Uhhhhh. You DO realize that the guy that replaced Fizz got the same Role PM as Fizz, right? 0_o

On your quotes at Fe, the first two look like throwaway comments just to say you called him scum when he flips, which you are doing now. The third mostly looks fake, but I'll give you that the "maybe twenty second" thing looks a bit less like scum on scum.

Yup, but I'm not going to vote someone based on their replacee's actions. They can't defend what their previous slot owner did.

Also, fine re: what you think of my posts. Just know that they were all genuine. I can't really provide anything more to convince you otherwise.

And if anyone's going to shout "LS, your voting Nacho based on his interactions with Fe. Why is it fair for him but not for you?" please read my next statement. What I did makes sense from a town perspective: My Fe read never wavered.

Nacho's read on Fe didn't waver -- it went from being solid town to solid scum.

[Lastsurvivor]

Maj/mollie

What do you think of my Nacho case?

[Lastsurvivor]

Unless bus now means town voting scum, nope.

[Lastsurvivor]

Maj I like how you're making statements like:

Just want to know if I should go for Nacho after LS flips scum.

While you're still voting Maenara.

Also by "I like" I mean that you could definitely be scum.

mollie/director what do you think of my nacho case

[Lastsurvivor]

Ah, the classic "Someone-just-pointed-out-something-scummy-I-did-so-I'm-just-going-to-make-a-clever-remark-in-hopes-that-the-problem-will-just-go-away."

Or, the SJPOSSIDSIJGTMACRIHTTPWJGA scum tell.

So you think Maenara is more likely to be scum then I am?

Even though you accused me of bussing Nacho?

Cool.

[Lastsurvivor]

I agree.

But you haven't mentioned Maenara since I "reminded" you how scummy I was.

Instead you've tried to justify your weak ass case on me and also smeared in some justification for a director lynch while voting neither of us.

It'd be excusable if Maenara hadn't made any posts since the post I linked above but she has. And you haven't commented on them.

So IS Maenara still your highest scum read? Or are you keeping your vote on her because you don't know where else to put it?

PEDIT: Can't we lynch Nacho first, director?

[Lastsurvivor]

Actually I'm fine with a maj lynch.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Majiffy

[Lastsurvivor]

> They're not related. I just chose that point because you mentioned Maenara in the post before that one. What made you think I thought they were related?
> You see, I could buy Maenara still being your highest scum read. But the quote I posted above in which you pushed for my lynch as if you really were voting me means I can't buy it.
> Did I ask you to comment on every single post by every single player? Did I? I think not. However, I would expect you to comment on the posts of your top scum read. And the fact that you still haven't is scummy.
> Well, I mean, you haven't moved your vote.

[Lastsurvivor]

2) Pushed for your lynch? When did I do that? I don't recall saying "guys lets lynch LastSurvivor now!"

Oh sorry you didn't say that. Gosh, I must have been all wrong about you.
Just kidding!

But I will repeat myself just because I like the sound of my own voice.

Just want to know if I should go for Nacho after LS flips scum.

You acted like my flip was going to happen. And you didn't say it, but you certainly implied that it was going to happen soon. Like today.
You can argue that that doesn't mean I'm your highest scum read. But why would you act like a secondary scum read's flip was going to happen sometime soon? And why would you be considering connectional tells (i.e., Nacho is scum if LS is scum) if I was only a secondary scum read?
-----
Nacho, I'm only responding to things that haven't been discussed to death.

WAIT WAIT
WHERE DID THE FE SCUMREAD GO
it disappeared like magic!

As your scum buddy Maj says....I have multiple scum reads but am limited by one vote. I'm pretty sure I've explained before that I found Fizz scummier than Fe, but if I haven't I just said it.

Wow, LS is pretty good at following up on people when he asks them questions.
Unless it's Fe, of course.

LS never asked Fe a question at that point. And when he did ask Fe a question he followed up on it. So this accusation makes no sense.

----

Nacho how do you feel about your flip flop on Fe that I discussed in my case that you eloquently ignored?

[Lastsurvivor]

I'm glad that you're only responding to the things that you feel that you can respond to and not the main idea.

[Lastsurvivor]

Not really. You're pushing two contradictory ideas here.

1) Maenara is your highest scum read. This, obviously, means you think Maenara is a part of the scum team. Since you said I will flip scum, that must mean I'm your second highest scum read, and therefore part of the scum team. Which means that, in your mind, the scum team is Maenara/LS.
2) You considered that I was bussing Nacho. Which means that you think Nacho could be part of the scum team. Which means that you were considering a Nacho/LS scum team.

To reiterate: I have no idea why you would consider an LS/Nacho scum team if Maenara is your highest scum read.

[Lastsurvivor]

just because one is stronger than the other doesn't mean the other one
DISAPPEARS

It didn't disappear though....
The post you point to in which it apparently disappears (this one 4 reference) is one where I just vote Fizz. Where in there do I indicate or imply that my Fe read is gone? In that post I don't suddenly come up with three scum reads that don't include Fe...

?
why would you ask me for my opinion on something that I DID?

Sorry that was just a snarky way of me pointing out that you ignored my case.
Nacho why did you go from defending Fe like your life depended on it to being ok with his lynch?

Not really. You're pushing two contradictory ideas here.

1) Maenara is your highest scum read. This, obviously, means you think Maenara is a part of the scum team. Since you said I will flip scum, that must mean I'm your second highest scum read, and therefore part of the scum team. Which means that, in your mind, the scum team is Maenara/LS.
2) You considered that I was bussing Nacho. Which means that you think Nacho could be part of the scum team. Which means that you were considering a Nacho/LS scum team.

To reiterate: I have no idea why you would consider an LS/Nacho scum team if Maenara is your highest scum read.

could you point out why you thought that Fe was scum with Fizz?
and then explain one more time why you stopped pushing fizz today?

None of that has anything to do with post 891. But anyway.
I think I've explained before that I don't look for teams on D1 but if I haven't I just did. But if you want a post to say that, here's a good one. Fizz said that Fe was suspicious for a post by Fe that wasn't particularly scummy...and not voting him. Could be distancing.

And I've answered that second question like twice, but Buldermar's (Fizz's replacement) content was fine. At least I thought it was. After reading his ISO I said here that his posts were scummy.

[Lastsurvivor]

WRT Lastsurvivor, it seems awfully easy for him to claim now that it was only in his postings that he made stronger arguments against Fe, but in his mind Fizz was a better lynch? And even his arguments for having a town read on Fe were really weak, as with saying that Fe supposedly considering replacing out was a strong town tell? That's what I'm getting out of his Day One thought train.

Whaaaaa
Where did I say I had a town read on Fe. I didn't. I never said Fe considering replacing out was a strong town tell. O.o

Bolded: Not how it works. You are a scum read, Maenara is a scum read. I'll accept that my reads may not be accurate. So my having scum reads on both of you does not solidify that you must be the scum team together.

No, that's bullshit. You've repeatedly asserted that you think I will flip scum. But you've also asserted that Maenara is your highest scum read. How can you think both of these things and not think that we're the scum team together? That's a huge disconnect. It doesn't make sense for you to be searching for connectional tells from me when I'm not your highest scum read either.

Bork, you realize that Nacho's case on me is just repeating what Kmd and Majiffy have said, right? He's just sheeping while trying to act like he's not by compiling a lot of quotes from my ISO together and typing expletives in all caps.

[Lastsurvivor]

Let's say I believe trucks are the ideal vehicle. And let's say I believe Toyota makes the best vehicles. Do I believe Toyota trucks are the penultimate automatic locomotive tool? No, it does not follow. There is no disconnect in having two independent scum reads and not associating them together; they are both considered scum reads on separate qualia, and in fact a flip on one may negate the scum read on another through associative tells.

Normally at this point I would say this is a difference in playstyles but I really don't think so.

I'll just use myself as an example.

I think you and Nacho are scum. While I acknowledge the fact that I could be wrong about one or both of you, I'm not going to make the assertion that "If Majiffy flips scum then <player that's not Nacho> is scum based on <associative tell>." Why? Because there's much more evidence for Nacho being scum than any player that's flimsily connected to you based on some association tell.

That's why I don't understand how you were considering voting Nacho after my flip even though you already had a scum read on Maenara. You didn't think Nacho was scum before hand. So why did the possibility jump into your mind?

[Lastsurvivor]

Associative tells CAN be very much not flimsy. Just like every other tell.

E.g., when you have someone who replaces in and defends a player but then does a complete 180 of their read on them with little to no rationale provided.

^ This is about Nacho if that wasn't clear.

However, the associative tell that "LS made a case on Nacho and could possibly be bussing him" is flimsy because it all boils down to WIFOM. Could LS be bussing? Could LS just be pushing a lynch on a townie? Could LS actually be town and actually scum hunting?

Well, I mean, that last thought hasn't crossed your mind despite it's plausibility and overall correctness.

That tell is flimsy because there's no indication that the "bussing" scenario is more likely than any of the other scenarios I mentioned.

[Lastsurvivor]

Funny, I thought you were talking about yourself in regards to flip-flopping on a town read on me.

You were my weakest town read. Don't flatter yourself.

Your third question shows ignorance of the basic tenet of associative tells; you need a scum flip first. You don't see me voting Nacho and saying "LOL HE'S SCUM CUZ LS IS BUSSING HIM". That would be idiocy. I am voting my scum read first and foremost. If that scum read flips scum, and has associative tells, I will pursue them.

Oh, I know that you're not voting Nacho and you can't push associative tells without a scum flip.
I mentioned the last question because you were the one who brought up an associative tell without a scum flip. So I'm not sure you should be the one calling me ignorant. <_<

Only because you look at it without the light of confirmed flips.

You're the one who brought up the association without a flip...

Anyway, let's assume that I flip scum (which I won't but that point will meet deaf ears). There are still two possible scenarios for my interaction with Nacho:

1) I am pushing a ML on Nacho.
2) I am bussing Nacho.

And there's no way to tell from my post which one is which. So you're point is still flimsy and I still have no idea why you brought up an associative tell when

1) You're insisting that associative tells are useless without a flip
2) It was a very weak tell on a secondary scum read.

--------------------

Peng, his rationale for me being scum is associative tells which are just as weak as the one he tried to push on Nacho. He called the posts about Fe I refered to here "gold mines of bussing." While the posts there could be bussing, that's only true because they are interactions with a player who is scum. There's nothing there that says "Oh, LS is definitely bussing and not a townie interacting with a scum player." Maj has not explained why I'm definitely bussing other than saying "Dude associative tells are totally legit scum hunting 101 dude."

Basically, I think a case shouldn't be based entirely on associative tells unless there's a definite disconnect in the person who's allegedly bussing's thought process. Weak associative tells like that should only be supplements, not the main point.

[Lastsurvivor]

Still, you took a town read and bypassed four scum reads to vote me. Four. With what to support it? Nothing.

We'll see what the town thinks about that tomorrow.
Hopefully they look at the fact that you're pushing me based on no original reasoning of your own and acting like these weak as fuck associative tells are totally legit.
OR they could just lynch you today. Or lynch Nacho today. But I'm slowly losing faith that that will happen. So instead I'm just going to constantly repeat that you and Nacho are scum so that when I flip town they remember who I thought was scum.

Funny, you've had those a lot. And people have pointed them out.

Uh, could you point out where?

So when ya gonna self-vote?

I'm not. I'd hate to ruin the wagon analysis.

Plus, the more you act like I'm obv scum when you have no good reasons whatsoever will just solidify your scuminess tomorrow when I flip town.

[Lastsurvivor]

Maj, please spare me the BS that you're only voting me because I'm attacking you. That doesn't even make sense. I never told you to vote me.

[Lastsurvivor]

That was your #236 (ISO #2). The next time you bring up Fe, it's in #349 (ISO #10), and the post is "While Fe is pretty scummy, post #317 was not scummy at all." You called him the scummiest lurker, and then he completely disappears from your followup and you start ignoring him until people start giving him shit, and your first response is TO DEFEND HIM. How is that an occurrence of a scumread disappearing?

Look at Fe's ISO. He makes no real posts in between #236 and #317. Fe didn't post...therefore I had nothing to comment on. The read didn't disappear.

And I've already gone over this with Kmd...if I see something scummy I'm going to comment on it even if it means questioning the people that are on the same wagon as me. Take it or leave it.

I thought Majiffy was pushing an idiotic mislynch like he always does, argued with him, kept looking him over, changed my mind.

I have a very hard time buying that Majiffy convinced you to "change your mind" by just reiterating things that he already said. If you thought Maj was pushing an idiotic mislynch, wouldn't you have already read those points? If you thought Fe was town, like you repeatedly asserted, wouldn't you have read Fe's posts that Maj quoted? What caused you to think differently about them?

okay why did you stop pushing his lynch today?
you weren't like "vote: Fizz, oh nevermind buldermar's doing fine"
you came in, voted majiffy, voted maenara
no buldermar/fizz mentions

Keep in mind that when I voted Majiffy, Buldermar hadn't made his first post yet. And I wasn't going to vote Buldermar without him making a post.

But, sure, you are correct that I never mentioned that my buldermar read had changed until KMD brought it up.

[Lastsurvivor]

Actually LS, what was lame and scummy about being on KMD?

Mm, no, I was talking about your reaction to his vote.

What is this random vote on me for

I don't like how you felt the need to make a snarky remark about the vote, but didn't actually ask him why he was voting you or say anything useful overall.

[Lastsurvivor]

LS is making up accusations all over the place in order to distract people from the wagon on him. In other news, bears are catholic, water defecates in the woods and the pope is wet.

Uct asked me a question. I answered. Try harder.

By my count I'm at L-3.

[Lastsurvivor]

He didn't make any "real posts" for the majority of the game. But when he showed up again, it was just more of the same crap. I'd expect that to reinforce your scumread or affect it in some way, but again, you ignored it until other people called it scummy.

Him prod-dodging was a null tell. He could have really been busy for all I knew...I'm not going to say "Omg I doubt you're too busy to post Fe," because there's no way I could have known.

Majiffy never specifically changed my mind, but he encouraged me to keep looking over Fe's posts. Originally I had him read as the type of player who would probably be too nervous to pull something like #361 as scum and it seemed like a pretty honest effort, but then I looked over 1298 and I saw how completely different his play was there, and I was pretty okay with hammering.

If you say so. Why didn't you bring any of that stuff about looking over his other games before?

You weren't even going to mention buldermar without him making a post? And then we he did and you found it townish (why did you find it townish?), you weren't going to bring him up then either?

Re the first question: Yes. I don't see how that's scummy or bad or even worth note.
Re second: Hist post #666 struck me as someone actually listening to reasons for/against a lynch.
Re third: Me not mentioning him was mostly just because I was too focused on Maj and in general I felt out of touch with this game. Hence why I didn't really comment when he did that bad KMD vote.

[Lastsurvivor]

Peng, I don't like how Majiffy was referring to my flip even though he was voting Maenara at the time. Maj insists that he still wanted Maenara lynched, but he didn't really mention her for awhile even though she was still making posts. Maj said those posts were unnoteworthy, which I find hard to believe since she changed her votes a few times and made actual noteworthy posts (like the "Wall of crud").

My theory is that Maj thought he was voting me when he made that statement and when I called him out on it he just decided to argue that he still wanted Maenara lynched even though lots of evidence points to the contrary. But that doesn't have to be true for Maj to be scum.

Kmd,

I don't have fancy statistics or anything to prove this, but I feel like I've seen more scum keep their buddies as scum reads without voting them until they are going to be lynched anyway than I've seen them completely change a read like that. And I feel like I've seen more town go from a town read on scum to a scum read as cases are presented. Scum like to keep their reads consistent because it looks town for whatever reason. A good townie will change their reads quite a bit as more information becomes available.

My problem with Nacho is that there was no new information to encourage a town -> scum flip. Just a rearrangement of the information already given.

PEDIT: @Nacho: No, I mean why didn't you mention that in your last few posts where you've been explaining why you switched your Fe read? Saying that your read was influenced by Fe's meta seems like an important thing to bring up before now.

[Lastsurvivor]

WOOHOOOOO TOWN WIN
No thanks to me ofc
Buldermar you're still a winner in my heart