Mini 1398 - Game Over!

[Mirhawk]

Vote: Shamrock

We'll never have a better opportunity.

[Mirhawk]

Unvote

Vote ICEninja

He seems to hold the opinion that every wagon in town is super awesome, but would still rather sit on his vote for iamausername because bacade thinks his post felt ungenuine.

[Mirhawk]

disturbed one is doing the same thing, and the way he has approached his pursuit of jmo reads nothing like a coherent town thought process to me. if he thinks that lying about omgussing makes jmo obvscum, why was he only voting him "for now", and why was he happy to switch over to iceninja when that wagon started looking more popular?

Yeah but at least he is voting on the wagons. ICE is trying to support both of them without getting on either one.

[Mirhawk]

It is when you claim you never read the post that you're lol-ing about.

[Mirhawk]

Ah nevermind, I misread. I thought you had said that you didn't know that someone was voting for you, instead of you didn't know who was voting for you. I might buy that as a possible reason to lol.

[Mirhawk]

I am slowly coming to the opinion that all the town players are away and the scum are arguing amongst themselves.

Disturbed why are you so sure that McStab has a reason for a vote?

ICE the point is that you were in tacit support of both of the viable town wagons. (no I don't considers iamausernames viable) But didn't move your vote off your rvs vote until asked about it.

JMO you and disturbed are arguing over nothing.

[Mirhawk]

^Don't forget Dunhamganger

Nacho and Shamrock were V/LA
Hopefully they'll post in the next day or so.

Abasta, are you egging Disturbed and Jmo on? Because it looks that way from over here.

[Mirhawk]

@Shamrock
It was more of an observation in question form.

This isn't what he wrote. Can't tell if you're trying to misrep or you made a mistake.

This triggered almost a entire page of disturbed and jmo arguing. His last post felt kinda like it had the same feel to it.
I guess what I'm wondering is if he has any actual investment in the argument, or if he's just tossing bones out there to watch how Disturbed and Jmo react.

[Mirhawk]

None of this sounds scummy. Why do need the answer to this?

Never said it was scummy, just wondering if it was intentional.


@Disturbed
You realize you're accusing Drenz of doing the same thing you defended McStab for doing right? That is to say, promising to post a case then not doing it.

[Mirhawk]

Wow what a gem of a scumpost.

And yet I don't retract it.

Do you have any opinions on the point of the game where I made it?

@shamrock
Curiosity mostly.

[Mirhawk]

The post of Mirhawk's that I quoted casts a wide net of suspicion without bringing up any specific points.

It also encourages the behavior of the lurking players and shucks off the responsibility of making them post content.

To be fair I was exaggerating somewhat. I was talking about the people who I mentioned later in that post. You know, the ones I brought up specific points on.

Also I would like a better explanation for what you're trying to say in that second part. Because it sounds like bullshit to me.

[Mirhawk]

I never claimed it was brilliant. Only that it was there.

I also like how you had time to stop by and be a smartass, but not to answer the question I asked.

[Mirhawk]

Unvote

Sorry about that ICE, I've just been using you as a parking lot. I haven't entertained any serious notions of you being scum since page five.

Nacho hasn't done anything anti-town. His initial case against bacde was well supported and I feel nothing he has said since then has in any way contradicted his earlier statements.

Bacde looks scummy as hell. The logic in his posts between 160 and 167 is quite bad. Accusing Nacho of an appeal to emotion in particular seems like a real stretch. Nacho was clearly mocking him. Also post 177 was garbage and unhelpful. His refusal to present a more focused case makes me think he doesn't have one. In the absence of a case he also appears to be asking people to prove Nacho's town rather then prove he's scum.

Vote: Bacde

I'm seeing Dire_Drenz as town. Scum would not have purposefully replaced out to get the town a better, more active player. Votes on him are wasted.

[Mirhawk]

I don't think the appeal to emotion in post 160 is valid. I already explained why.

In post 163 you implied that Nacho admitted to using abasta's case as his own, when he in fact had not.

In post 167 you again bring up that thing about abasta's case. The quote you have however can clearly be read that he is referring to your opinion at the beginning of the sentence, rather then his own view on abasta's case.

I must admit however, I am colored on this because as I read the exchange Nacho ripped everything you said apart. In my eyes this makes Nacho look better and you worse. This doesn't take into account the fact that Nacho might just be better at debate. Nothing Nacho has said make him look particularly like town or scum in my eyes.

[Mirhawk]

@Bacde
When I said Nacho was ripping your posts to shreds I meant his later ones, after you started arguing with him. Nacho's original case on you was quite bad, and in fact until you started responding to Nacho's claims I had a town read on you.

[Mirhawk]

Can you explain the change in how you thought about Nacho's initial Bacde case?

To be perfectly honest, I read it a second time. It seemed strong the first time I read it, but upon refection the particular points Nacho had seemed rather weak. I still think its non-contradictory, and an okay post in general, but his case isn't very compelling.

[Mirhawk]

The argument between jmo/dist was ongoing but neither side was gaining any momentum or votes or anything. What is scum-Mirhawk losing from spinning it into an attack on absta instead?

I can't accept this reasoning unless you can explain why town-Mirhawk

wouldn't

make this comment.

[Mirhawk]

Unvote

I don't think bacde is lying about his claim. As far as fakeclaims go this would be a fairly shitty one as it could be potentially CC'ed be either another bodyguard or a Doctor, and Doctors are fairly common.

Vote: Shamrock

He's on the site every day. That's pretty bad.

@iam
Why would I not go back and look at that post again in those two hours. I obviously had enough time to do so judging from the time stamps. Additionally I was arguing with bacde about his and Nacho's interactions during the time in question, Nacho's case is a part of that. I reread that stretch of posts a more than once during that period.

Are you accusing me of accidentally buddying up to ICE? Because I don't think buddying is a scumtell unless it's on purpose.

As for that last bit, I think it's obvious that you can't make an argument for why something is scummy unless there is a reason that town wouldn't do it.

[Mirhawk]

it's not a reason for thinking you're scum. it's just not a good reason for thinking you're town.

So you're saying that this isn't a scumtell or a towntell?

Why did you bring it up then?

[Mirhawk]

Scumreads?

Sham obviously. This is based almost entirely off his active lurking.

Gets a little muddy after that though.
Next would be disturbed. He seems almost a little too earnest sometimes, he flip flops his opinion a lot too. He also switches between reasoning things out in a fairly well thought out manner, and being a super-noob who apologizes for his logic and feigns inexperience fairly regularly. It feels off to me.

Cheery also sets of warning bells. He read ten pages of the thread and zero opinions from it, surely something should have stood out. This also conveniently gives him the opportunity to not vote sham.

@Disturbed
It's a bad claim because of how it interacts with doctors. A Doctor and bodyguard protecting each other can be unkillable. Doc's are common, so there was a pretty good chance that one is in the game.

[Mirhawk]

I don't know, I can't really defend my opinion on this. It just feels somewhat artificial to me. I'm having difficulty in telling why I feel that way though.

[Mirhawk]

There's nothing hypothetical about what I said. I claimed that I reread it, then pointed out that I had ample time to do so. Those are facts.

Not sure when I changed my mind, after bacde's post 187 I think, since bacde references Nacho's original case in it. Would have been my second or third time reading it I would guess.

also this response feels like 'caught me for the wrong reasons' AGAIN.

If you feel I was buddying ICE that's your prerogative I guess. I would like to ask for clarification as to what you meant the first time you brought this argument up though.

[Mirhawk]

iam you realize you have the am/pm timestamps on two of my posts mixed up right? My post 189 was about twelve hours after 185, not 14 minutes.

[Mirhawk]

Also, iam is probably town.

[Mirhawk]

Because?

[Mirhawk]

so i guess you are absolutely sure that you changed your mind after you made post 185 then, huh?

Reasonably sure. It`s not like I write down what time I think things at. But that sounds about right.

You obviously think you`re on to something so how about you get to the point.

[Mirhawk]

I frankly don't see how I lied at any point in that line of reasoning. Nor does me saying I changed my mind after 185 change anything. If you bothered reading what I'm actually saying in 189 you would realize that post 185 has nothing to do with Nacho's original case at all. Rather it was talking about the conversation between Nacho and bacde after Nacho's original post.

How about instead of vaguely implying that I might have lied about something at some point in that exchange you point out exactly what it is that I lied about.

[Mirhawk]

Anyways I still want to know where I lied iam.

Also, Sham was so scummy there is practically no chance there were no scum bussing him. Probably not bacde or Jabs tho.

ebwop @rob
FUUUUUUCCKKK that's a ton of bullshit to read.

Only thing I really take from this is that I would like you to outline your case on bacde. Most of the points you bring up with regards to bacde are simply stating he is scum but not why.

[Mirhawk]

So instead you just give us the vote with no reasoning whatsoever. Gee how useful.

[Mirhawk]

Yeah you're right, because implying you have something to say about bacde then not supplying it with you vote is the height of scumhunting.

[Mirhawk]

Bodyguard is a terrible claim.

If at any point a claimed PR dies and he doesn't he gets lynched.
If he survives until later in the game he'll probably get lynched.
He's claiming a role that has double the chance to die at night as any other player. Just being alive makes him suspicious.
If a doctor ever claims or flips he'll be lynched.

If the extent of your personal beliefs on bacde stem from this why have you never replied to the multiple times when people expressed this opinion?
Other opinions on bacde are mostly irrelevant. In the end it boils down to is he, or is he not a bodyguard. Because if he isn't he's scum, and if he is he's town.

[Mirhawk]

Also, there's no merit in lynching someone who's very survival (or lack thereof) could prove their alignment in the later days. Lynching him before day three at the very least is stupid.

[Mirhawk]

Several of those points are garbage, they all assume from the get go that he

is

scum. The arguments I laid out are all from the perspective of not knowing if he's scum or not. Of course he wont die at night if he's scum.

My point is thus, if a PR becomes reveled in the next day or two it would be nice to have an additional layer of protection between them and death. Strategically speaking it's better to not lynch him right off the bat.

[Mirhawk]

That's stupid logic, there are power roles in the game. Obviously they would claim their actual roles.

How about this, if he was scum why wouldn't he claim cop or a more common PR. At best he doesn't get CC'ed, at worst he draws out a PR when they CC him.

ebwop
@Rob
I don't see it that way. Scum don't know who is or isn't a PR at this point, why worry about accidentally killing the only known PR. I doubt this was the reason they targeted Disturbed.

[Mirhawk]

Doctors and bodyguards may be able to be in the same game. It depends on whether the mod came up with a way for their roles to function in case they cross protect each other. My information on this is completely from the wiki article on bodyguards.

So maybe, but alduskkal would have had to sort out some way for the roles to work together first.

[Mirhawk]

I agree with this. As long as bacde is not alive in lylo we're fine. If there's a doc I don't want them coming out now.

[Mirhawk]

@iam
Well you're completely wrong for the record but if you don't want to discuss it anymore that's fine.

Also Robs "catch" on Jmo is terrible. Any town player who acts scummy and gets lynched is regarded as a bad player, but somehow mentioning that you're trying to avid this is a scumtell.

[Mirhawk]

You're not necessary to kill if we can confirm you in some other way. However, even doing that is low priority. Why waste a cop investigation on someone whose role is to die.
You have to die before lylo that's all. A vig should only NK you if we're about to enter lylo and you're still alive, otherwise we might still be able to benefit from your protection.
The problem with you in lylo is that if you're still alive it opens that whole can of worms about why your still alive or why scum didn't kill a PR. If you're town that would be a liability we could do without.

The softbuddying thing on jmo and bacade is strange but unprovable at the moment. It also appears to be mostly from bacde's side. Total lack of scumhunting iam mentioned is pretty apparent in iso. Only scumhunting I noticed was a small ammount directed at bacde.

@Jmo
Who are your current scumreads? I see no mention anywhere of a single person you suspect other then disturbed.

@Rob
When you wrote your thread synopsis did you read the thread and then write it, or did you write it as you read the thread?

[Mirhawk]

Personally I don't much like Rob's case. I get the feeling that he was looking at jmo's posts with the belief in mind that anything he said was scummy. It's not that hard to make a big wall of "scummy" interactions from any player if you look close enough.

This is why I don't like his opening summery of the game. It has that same vibe with regards to bacde and jmo.

[Mirhawk]

Vote: ICEninja

You know I can only read so many really terrible posts from one person before I start wondering if they're full of it. Why on earth would you start advocating Vig kills on bacde if it's already clear he won't make it to the endgame and we might be able to benefit from his power in the meantime?

He's also justifying his votes on melmond with unprovable hypothetical theory's. Oh, and there's that thing with unvoting cheery because bacde asked him why he's voting the same person as him.

Not sure why he keeps getting labeled as town.

[Mirhawk]

@abasta
How can you actually have no scum reads. I have so many I can't pick between them.

[Mirhawk]

Goddamnit

Why the fuck did you claim when it has been made expressly clear that bacde isn't going to live to the endgame! What possible purpose does that achieve?

Unvote

[Mirhawk]

Well it doesn't look quite as bad now that I read the rest of your post, but I still don't think you should have claimed.

[Mirhawk]

My scumreads are:
-Iceninja (probably going to drop this one now)
-Rob
-Abasta
-Cheery
-Jmo

They're more or less listed in order of strength. As you can see there's loads of them. I've got no idea how abasta could possibly have none.

[Mirhawk]

@Jmo
The reason I find abasta kind of scummy has more to do with how he has acted today compared to yesterday. My question, although related wasn't directly why he's on my scum list.
Yesterday he was all business, scumhunting like a champ. He asked lots of questions and made remarks on lots of player interactions. Today he's pretty much fence sitting and waiting for Nacho.
Oh and that thing between him and Shamrock struck me as extremely fake from Shamrocks side.

[Mirhawk]

If we have a Vig they should shoot bacde tomorrow night, not tonight. On the off chance that he isn't lying and Ald did make a way for docs and bodyguards to work together this gives you the longest lifespan.

[Mirhawk]

Well that turned out pretty good. Afraid I didn't contribute too much but that turned out to unimportant in the long run. I've never seen a innocent child in a game before so I wasn't really sure what to do with it. I figured Just to keep it under wraps for as long as possible and use it to provide a confirmed townie in the endgame.

I wasn't very surprised by bacde's flip. Though I have to say I was taken off guard by how quickly his wagon piled up. Pretty much three hours first vote to last vote.

I really didn't think iamausername was scum though. I initially thought his points were kinda strange, but then someone said that was normal for him and I'm afraid I accepted that at face value.

Props to Jabberwock, that was well played. ICE and abasta did nicely with their PR's as well.

[Mirhawk]

As a side note I don't think that the bodyguard claim was a very good one to make. It was unconventional and by virtue of that alone was able to survive one further day. But it also pretty much comes with a built in deadline for your death. I think it would have been a better claim for say the enabler. That way you still get to take down a PR with you when you are eventually lynched.