Newbie 1310: A WILD CHARIZARD APPEARED! - GAME OVER

[Nachomamma8]

I will be back later to yell at Smashbard for using RQS.
But for now, I plan on playing final fantasy.

[Nachomamma8]

CF YOU ACTUALLY DID REPLACE IN
IF YOU ARE TOWN WE ARE GOING TO WRECK THIS SHIT

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Nachomamma8, cause they are the only person I have played with before.

HI, NACHO!

Hello. Ready to lynch scum day one again? Good.

I will ask all of you a small series of questions to gauge where we are all coming from. There really isn't a wrong answer to any of these questions. This is just a way to break the ice.

Break the ice and... delay the actual game from beginning. Question 1 is nice for getting to know people, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of other threads on site if you want to meet people and find out why they play. Question 2 is... useless, obviously. 3 is also useless. Of course everyone trusts their own reads instead of their own unless someone else is convincing or not. None of these help with scumhunting, all of these add useless things to my thread. Please don't do random questions ever again pretty pretty please. These were less anti-town than they usually are, but that doesn't mean they are good

I'll say this now, i'm a vanilla town.
Whether i'm lying or not is up to you.
But if something doesn't add up, then SOMEONE did lie.

Mmmm... don't do this. If you are lying as town, then your PR claim won't be believed down the road, which is a very, very bad thing, since you would probably be forced to claim when a majority of the town finds you scummy anyways. If you are telling the truth as town, then you're basically saying "hey guys, I make a perfectly good mislynch! Don't kill me!" if they paranoid of you being a PR, they will rolecop you. They will not kill you. If you are mafia, this just brings the spotlight to you.

If i gain nothing, then it doesn't really matter whether i do it or not.
Whats to loose?

If you gain nothing, you probably don't want to do it. You can never really gauge consequences until they are hitting you in the face in most scenarios.

I understand how random questions can be a stupid thing and basically force people to post for the sake of posting. But is that really so bad early on in the game? (thats a serious question)

Yes it is. The opening of games is extremely important, and RQS makes them a lot more muddled, a lot less advantageous for town. If you get the game started early and you don't give scum time to get comfortable, then things get interesting. For example, I normally would call Doctor scum for avoiding things and posting crap (I still probably will), but for now, I don't really know whether he is newbie who doesn't know where to start and so goes with answering random questions, or whether he is scum coasting.

I really like em+d and Dyr for town.

And yeah, gonna vote Doc anyways.

Vote: TheDoctor

[Nachomamma8]

I see the vote for Doc cause he answered the random Q's and posting crap, but I'm wondering why. A lot of us answered those random q's (which I think is what you're referencing as posting crap), was there other crap he posted or something other than the answering of the random questions that makes him more scummy? Cause if it's just for answering those questions that could be a lot of people.

It wasn't the answering questions that set me off, it was more that he did absolutely nothing else with it. The fact that he didn't respond to the page one VT claim tells me that he hasn't read, but if he hasn't read, then how did he know to answer those RQS questions? More likely than not, he was looking for something to post, found the random questions, answered them, and stopped reading. That tells me he's just posting to get by, which makes him likelier scum than not.

If you lynch say on D1, you have a chance of getting scum, which is great but you also have a chance getting town. Now N1, a town will always be killed. So by lynching eveyday, you increase the chance of losing 2 town compared to only loosing 1.
Now i know that eliminating scum is how you win the game for town. But can't that be said as keeping as many townies alive?

If you lynch on Day 2, you have a chance of getting scum, which is great but you also have a chance of getting town. Now N2, a town will always be killed. So, by lynching everyday, you increase the chance of losing 2 town compared to only loosing 1. So, it's optimal never to lynch because then we never lose 2 town!
...but that's not how it works. We have three chances to hit scum before we lose. No lynching D1 basically says that fuck it, we're obviously going to win this game so we need a handicap, let's do this with only two chances to hit scum instead. In fact, everytime we no lynch when there are an odd number of players alive, we're essentially throwing away one of our chances for absolutely no reason. So yeah, we want to lynch pretty much every day. Exception would be if there are 6 players alive and 2 scum left OR 4 players alive and 1 scum left and there isn't a confirmed town around. Then you might want to no lynch so you would have the minimum amount of suspects, but only then.

So what you're saying that it's a bad move if i am town or scum. Hence just a bad move altogether?

Precisely.

Why?
Am i really to close to see exactly whats so town about them?

Dyr is being aggressive, targetting something that he regards to be scummy and locking on tight. While he does that, he's also looking around, criticizing people, searching for the other scum. I find that pretty town.
Em+p is more of a tonal read, but the conscious creating of bandwagons to get people closer to a lynch is pretty cool, pretty cool.

I would like elaboration as to why theres a wagon on the doctor and why empdear is town. I see dry and xegarus as town. Don't know about nacho. He wan this chummy in our last game. *Wasnt

Really? Pretty sure I buddied the hell out of camn last game until I thought she was scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I had read, and read the responses to his RC. He did something dumb, and he was getting grilled for it, but I did not see any reason to add to a lynch mob mentality. I was sitting out to see if I saw anything worth pointing out. I'm not a big fan of repeating things others have said, but I guess I will be forced to do so on this site.

Never asked you to repeat what others have said; I am asking you to take your own position on a situation. Do you think the claim was more likely to come from a scum viewpoint, or a town viewpoint? Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Could you possibly be a little more non committal, Doc? Thanks.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I had to commit to anything. Let me fix that. I don't have a fucking clue if he is town or not.

Could you attempt to read him?

Say if a scumcop chooses X as their role target. Would he be given his role and then still be allowed to kill him during the same night?
Or would he be given the information at a later time?

No, he gets the information the next morning.

It would seem, at a casual glance, that any supporting argument you are capable of providing is a boon to this task.

But occasionally you want to see people squirm a little bit before throwing out all of your cards on the table. Sometimes I like voting people without reasons to see how they react.

Only scum and power roles have excuses to keep secrets.

This is patently incorrect, as Riot has already stated. Is this your only reason for voting?

Actually, I have to agree with Bard. He placed the vote because he felt that Xeg was a danger to the town. Since then CF has seemed to defend Xeg quite a bit, and it looks to me like a badly performing scum team.

Why do they seem like a badly performing scumteam?

seems like a scum mentality. As town, I would have seen that as a yellow light/yield sign, to stop and think before placing more votes. Xegarus, you saw it as a green light for an easy lynch.

Why do you say he saw it as the green light for an easy lynch?

Where is our IC when you need one?

Any questions for me?

[Nachomamma8]

Double posting on purpose so this post is EXTRA short and people pay EXTRA attention to this.

Actually, I'm voting you because you would be less of a loss to the town if you turn out to be town.

This is bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit. Doctor is not taking a position on

anyone

, yet is happy to put someone at L-1 just because he thinks they will prove to be less of a loss to the town if they flip town? The point of this game is to lynch scum, and nothing in Doctor's ISO proves that he's even attempting this.

[Nachomamma8]

dyr, xeg, em+p, you, smash townreads
doctor scumread
preference of katiekatt over om

[Nachomamma8]

EBWOP:

dyr, xeg, em+p, you, smash townreads
doctor scumread
preference of katiekatt over om

for scum

[Nachomamma8]

CF, I think you might be reverting to wallposting riot again.

[Nachomamma8]

hey xegarus, what did you think of the person who put you at L-1?

@Nacho- Why do you have a preference for me as scum?

You haven't exactly done anything too townish quite yet. Most other people have.

[Nachomamma8]

Is he in your top 2 suspects?

[Nachomamma8]

I tried to look for your most recent scum & town flipped games but I got lost in your post clutter of current games and failed. Could you point me in the right direction?

Here is my most recent newbie game that hasn't made it to the wiki yet.
Here is my wiki, which will give you all of the recent games you will ever desire.
Also, clicking 'search by topic' is usually much more manageable in looking through posts.

Is he in your top 2 suspects?

Yeah, it's Xegar and then him (but Xegar is pretty scummy). I'm not seeing the scum in Smash.

What do you think of Xegar's outed reason?

[Nachomamma8]

Like I said before, I think you can put pressure on someone while still saying it, so I think it was another bad move of him to hush up and act all secretive about it. I think pressure while being stated can be much more effective, and unless there's role alliances I don't see how he expected to build up pressure besides his own vote (which didn't put Smash at L-1, so wasn't it's own pressure by itself) with such a wishy-washy answer when he was already looking scummy to so many people. It doesn't add up to me.

Being ineffective and making a scum-motivated vote are two very, very different things. Why do you think Xegar as scum refused to share his reasons for voting Smash when he was already in trouble for making the early role claim?

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA from now until the 26th

Christmas duties call. I hopefully will be around some, but I might not be, so declaring V/LA just in case.

~Noted.

[Nachomamma8]

Also, I said that I do not like RC'ing at any stage. It may be something that happens in every game on this site, if so, I probably won't play here very long. This game is not about role claiming, it's about figuring out who is town and who is not. We could all come in and RC on D1 if we wanted, and that would be very boring. I will never RC, at any time, in any game.

If we decided to massclaim on day 1, then all of the scum would claim VT and pick off the power roles like sitting ducks, hence why we do it sparingly. But when someone is about to be lynched, role claims make for a last resort type of thing that means we don't lynch power roles for no reason. There's no way we can break the game with claims (since anyone can claim whatever they want), so why not use all of the tools given to us?

[Nachomamma8]

don't ever change

[Nachomamma8]

Can you address other things as well?

[Nachomamma8]

What? That we disagree on role claiming? Sure, I disagree with you.

We disagree, but I've taken some steps to explain my position. Can you do that for yours?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: kitiekatt

em+p_dear is probably my second suspect from now. Will do some rereading later to see how I still feel about it.

[Nachomamma8]

Interesting. I think we have a Doc or Jailkeeper, unless the scum actually refused to kill.

Yes, there's either a doc, a jailkeeper, or the scum didn't kill.
That doesn't tell us much.

[Nachomamma8]

Now, I just want to know who it was, and who was protected. That would give us a leg up on the suspect.

and also would tell the scum who the protective role who just fucked up their kill was
so it's not exactly the best of ideas

[Nachomamma8]

The only reason I could imagine you would jump right out of the gate with wanting answers as to why we were lucky enough to not suffer a nightkill tells me you're frustrated scum. Which is shocking to me, because you were so pro-town yesterday. Maybe you jumping on Xegar & CF Riot was just grasping at straws after all?

What do you think of em+p doing the same? Her and dyr are scumbuddies, then?

@nacho-just curious, but why me?

Why wouldn't I suspect you today?

kitiekatt, who is your strongest scumread today?

[Nachomamma8]

I do have another question though for anyone who can answer it. I'm thinking specifically about Nacho and CF, but other SE's and IC's as well: I think in newbie games we're giving sort of a deference to them, assuming (rightfully I think) that they know how to play, looking to them for advice, generally valuing their reads, etc. BUT, if they are killed, and you can't talk after you're dead, aren't we losing valuable guidance? Would we then just save our questions for the end game? Dead people can talk in the endgame, right?

I was tossing this around in my head last night. If an IC or SE gets killed (whether or not it's a scum or town kill), we lose that experience. Can someone who has been in a game with SE's or IC's before help me out? How did you handle this? Are there ways to provide info/guidance in game without them? Or does it all have to happen after end game if they get killed?

So, the most important thing that an IC/SE does for the game is get it started. Oftentimes, people don't really know how to transition from no information to actually finding scum, so the only actual job that an IC/SE has is getting things started and making sure that everyone pretty much knows what they're doing. The rest of the advice we provide is just icing on the cake; none of what we do is actuallyneeded. I'll also be around after the end of the game to give some feedback on everyone's play during the game (unless I forget, but just PM me or something and I'll return), so my death only means that any information that you would've had during the day will come a little later than you thought it would. I can also give more specific advice when the game is over and everyone is flipped.

My vote is on Nacho because in his #62 post he called Em+d town. But she is his 2nd best scum read on D2.
I'm really curious about what exactly changed since all Em+d has posted after that is #126 #216 and #236, which by no means looks scum motivated to me.
Being unless=/=scumtell.

Em+p seemed townish as far as early game reads go, but then after the game went on and I was able to flip one of my suspects and read other players better, the town read erroded plenty. You can't really dismiss people in this game after you get a townread on them, or else it only takes strong early play and the town is fucked.

Not to mention both Nacho and Em+d were null read for me when we started D2, which makes it even more suspicious when one of your null reads call other likely scum in very first post of the day.

What do you mean?

Like it or not, we will be screwed if this is true as he is our IC and to hard to read as player for most of us, I just wanted to get more clarity on where his motive stands before it's too late for it by putting vote on him. But looking at how he completely ignored it I'm now even more confused

Then ask me my motive instead of just putting a vote on me. I usually ignore votes without much substance behind them unless I'm feeling a hell of a lot more pressure; putting you into the awkward position of having to deal with me blowing you off gives me a stronger read on you than playing along would.

What has changed in the fact that you thought Empdear was one of your top town reads to make him a possible scum suspect? Was his alignment riding on Doctors flip in some way to you?

It was an early read that didn't really have anything strengthening it afterwards. His alignment was riding on Doc's flip in the sense that Doc can no longer be factored into any of my scumteam choices, but not in any way other than that.

[Nachomamma8]

My biggest problem with kitiekatt is her passive nature. That in and of itself isn't exactly scummy, but the fact that she doesn't make any significant pushes and the fact that she doesn't actually seem to be searching for scum makes it suspicious. Her only significant suspect for all of D1 was Xegar, but reading her ISO without context doesn't really show her pushing it any after her vote. Her original vote on him was because of him witholding his reasons for voting (she also states it was because of the roleclaim, but considering she didn't put the vote on him when he initially did it, I'm assuming that the witholding of the reasons was a stronger point for her), but when Xegar explained his reasons, she didn't explain why she still had her vote on him until I asked her about it, and the explanation that she gave me sounded more like she was justifying why her vote was still on Xegar and not trying to explain why she still found him scum even though her initial reasons became invalid. There's also her suspicion of CF, which has earned a lot of lip service from her but no actual votes or significant pushes. She's asked him a lot of questions and called him her second strongest scumreads yesterday, but no mention of him when I asked for her scumreads today. So right now, it seems like she's afraid to make a push on CF because he's an experienced player, but doesn't really know what else to attack, which leaves her in this awkward position as scum.

Em+p_dear read town to me initially for the transparent thought process in #55. I liked the paranoia over a nightkill, which scum usually don't think to fake early. Lately, I haven't liked her lack of strong reads. Generally, when people take a long time to form a read, it means that they are just a cautious player. But when they form a read, they usually don't budge on those reads for a really long time. However, that's not what we saw with the Dyr read. He was her only "100% town read" of the game, which was also the only read she's made with any strength. Today, he's become her strongest scum read, and while it isn't exactly a strong scum read, it's the a pretty big change from strongest town to strongest scum, and it doesn't exactly have a whole lot of explanation behind it. It also has the problem of giving em+p a lot of leniency in deciding who she wants to wagon while scum, which is something town rarely worry about but scum often do.

[Nachomamma8]

WHAT DO YOU THINK I WAS JUST DOING

[Nachomamma8]

My biggest problem with kitiekatt is her passive nature. That in and of itself isn't exactly scummy, but the fact that she doesn't make any significant pushes and the fact that she doesn't actually seem to be searching for scum makes it suspicious. Her only significant suspect for all of D1 was Xegar, but reading her ISO without context doesn't really show her pushing it any after her vote. Her original vote on him was because of him witholding his reasons for voting (she also states it was because of the roleclaim, but considering she didn't put the vote on him when he initially did it, I'm assuming that the witholding of the reasons was a stronger point for her), but when Xegar explained his reasons, she didn't explain why she still had her vote on him until I asked her about it, and the explanation that she gave me sounded more like she was justifying why her vote was still on Xegar and not trying to explain why she still found him scum even though her initial reasons became invalid. There's also her suspicion of CF, which has earned a lot of lip service from her but no actual votes or significant pushes. She's asked him a lot of questions and called him her second strongest scumreads yesterday, but no mention of him when I asked for her scumreads today. So right now, it seems like she's afraid to make a push on CF because he's an experienced player, but doesn't really know what else to attack, which leaves her in this awkward position as scum.

Em+p_dear read town to me initially for the transparent thought process in #55. I liked the paranoia over a nightkill, which scum usually don't think to fake early. Lately, I haven't liked her lack of strong reads. Generally, when people take a long time to form a read, it means that they are just a cautious player. But when they form a read, they usually don't budge on those reads for a really long time. However, that's not what we saw with the Dyr read. He was her only "100% town read" of the game, which was also the only read she's made with any strength. Today, he's become her strongest scum read, and while it isn't exactly a strong scum read, it's the a pretty big change from strongest town to strongest scum, and it doesn't exactly have a whole lot of explanation behind it. It also has the problem of giving em+p a lot of leniency in deciding who she wants to wagon while scum, which is something town rarely worry about but scum often do.

MY BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH KITIEKATT IS HER PASSIVE NATURE. THAT IN AND OF ITSELF ISN'T EXACTLY SCUMMY, BUT THE FACT THAT SHE DOESN'T MAKE ANY SIGNIFICANT PUSHES AND THE FACT THAT SHE DOESN'T ACTUALLY SEEM TO BE SEARCHING FOR SCUM MAKES IT SUSPICIOUS. HER ONLYSIGNIFICANT SUSPECT FOR ALL OF D1 WAS XEGAR, BUT READING HER ISO WITHOUT CONTEXT DOESN'T REALLY SHOW HER PUSHING IT ANY AFTER HER VOTE. HER ORIGINAL VOTE ON HIM WAS BECAUSE OF HIM WITHOLDING HIS REASONS FOR VOTING (SHE ALSO STATES IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE ROLECLAIM, BUT CONSIDERING SHE DIDN'T PUT THE VOTE ON HIM WHEN HE INITIALLY DID IT, I'M ASSUMING THAT THE WITHOLDING OF THE REASONS WAS A STRONGER POINT FOR HER), BUT WHEN XEGAR EXPLAINED HIS REASONS, SHE DIDN'T EXPLAIN WHY SHE HAD HER VOTE ON HIM UNTIL I ASKED HER ABOUT IT, AND THE EXPLANATION THAT SHE GAVE ME SOUNDED MORE LIKE SHE WAS JUSTIFYING WHY HER VOTE WAS STILL ON XEGAR AND NOT TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY SHE STILL FOUND HIM SCUM EVEN THOUGH HER INITIAL REASONS BECAME INVALID. THERE'S ALSO HER SUSPICION OF CF, WHICH HAS EARNED A LOT OF LIP SERVICE FROM HER BUT NO ACTUAL VOTES OR SIGNIFICANT PUSHES. SHE'S ASKED HIM A LOT OF QUESTIONS AND CALLED HIM HER SECOND STRONGEST SCUMREAD YESTERDAY, BUT NO MENTION WHEN I ASKED FOR HER SCUMREADS TODAY. SO RIGHT NOW, IT SEEMS LIKE SHE'S AFRAID TO MAKE A PUSH ON CF BECAUSE HE'S AN EXPERIENCED PLAYR, BUT DOESN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT ELSE TO ATTACK, WHICH LEAVES HER IN THIS AWKWARD POSITION AS SCUM.

[Nachomamma8]

If I do happen to withhold my reason for a vote and then the scum target asks me about it, I feel no obligation to explain it to them because I don't need to convince scum they're scummy. They'll never vote themselves. However if another player asks and I feel they're town, then depending on the circumstances I'll explain my read to that person to try and gain their support on the wagon.

i posted an all caps case just for you and you are ignoring it
stop ignoring it

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma8: Don't ask me, that guy's harder to read then Natsume Soseki.

You don't even have anything to say about me pushing you as my second suspect?

What does it mean to say you flipped one of your suspects? I understand the word 'flip' when we learn for sure that someone was town (like Doc), but what does it mean when you or someone flips? Is that just saying someone is giving more of a town vibe now than a scum vibe or vice-versa? Or is it involving some sort of concrete information?

It means that I now know the alignment of someone who was previously a suspect (doc), which forces me to reanalyze former reads.

So here's my deal. To me, I think a vote is a big deal. It makes me seem passive because I'm not gonna vote like a crazy person all over the place. I'm skeptical and it does take me a hell of a long time to make a decision. This is in all of life as well as in this forum. I'm gonna weigh everything and try to figure things out. Plus, we've seen, it takes me a bit longer to digest everything. I'll do reads for D2 to be more aggressive about it, but some of them are just gut reads.

Okay. So why have you chosen this moment to vote him?

True, but my worry was more towards ''why'' Em+p jumped forward for you more then others due to Doc's flip. She wasn't on either wagon, probably didn't even read the thread on D1 considering the difference in magnitude of substance in her posts on D2(today, which is still less and wishy-washy) compared to D1.

It's the nothing that brings em+p forward to me. It's occasionally a natural scum response to look at the town yelling at each other and not really want to get involved; to let them eat themselves alive, essentially. I doubt that em+p completely avoided reading yesterday, but she didn't really have any big pushes yesterday, so she's a big suspect of mine.

Hence, you looked like scum who was going for easy lynch options from start of the day.

Sometimes I like putting out suspects on the first post of the day because I like to establish where I stand. I'm an aggressive player, and coming right out at the start of the day while singling out two specific players as targets tell the townie they have to step it up, and it intimidates the scum because they know that I will attack them today, and they will be forced to defend themselves. For what it's worth, though, I don't really view kitiekatt and em+p as a valid scumteam choice; I'd rather wait until revealing thoughts until a later date because kitiekatt's next post will matter a lot as far as who I attack next, and I don't want to reveal my cards to early and tell her who she should be distancing from/forging connections with.

[Nachomamma8]

I did ask that first in my post #247, I only voted when you didn't reply to it.

I find it too convenient that both the scums in this game are in the form of Kittie and Em according to your first post of the day. One of them, maybe, but I really don't see Kittie+Em team functioning. Also, it might not be odd to have D1 mislynch wagon without scum on it, but really, what are the chances of it happening in this game?

Mmm, I forgot about that. I was going to do reading later, so a significant question such as that was going to be answered whenever I got around to it. And yes, I agree with your assertion. I didn't say that I thought kittie+Em was the scumteam, though.

[Nachomamma8]

I just replaced in, but I'm not sure if Tracey has already realized.

Nacho was wrong about my slot.

Uhm, I think I'll wait for Tracey to see this and send me that pm. Could take a while... she's busy with other stuff

your slot was scum...?

[Nachomamma8]

HEY MYKONIAN ARE YOU TOWN OR SCUM
AND WHY THE HELL DID YOU STALK ME HERE

[Nachomamma8]

Other then that, the post below (and I don't even know what he talks about, haven't read anything beyond this page) fucking sucks. Anyone who needs 300 words after the sentence "My biggest problem with kitiekatt is her passive nature" is a scumbag no matter how you consider it.

glad to see you're back
i sort of explained that after the first bit

[Nachomamma8]

Yes. Which is why you are scum? I'm pretty sure that I'm saying if you need a wall like that to explain that sentence you are complete full of gummibears. Because that's a gummibear post if I ever saw one.

A wall because it's not specifically the passive nature and actually other things as well >.>

Doctor Who was right. Can't lie with one word. You need a lot.

Town.

[Nachomamma8]

Xegarus has requested a replacement. Seaching...

Yup, I'm talking to someone not in the game anymore.

Brilliant, just insulted a person who can't answer. Not worth the effort.

who is also the guy who you just replaced >.>
noob

page 6: report. CF obvtown.

page 6: report. CF obvtown.

town i could see
probably not obviously so

[Nachomamma8]

And I think you refer to my post towards nacho. Nacho has had a couple of games in a row now where he's been rather vocally wrong about me.

I read you wrong twice, that dark time in my life is over.
find anything interesting in your reread yet?

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: em+p_dear

I don't mind dyr votes.

[Nachomamma8]

lol, "noob game".

cf why aren't you voting?

hey myko i'm reading you as town and i'm probably not wrong

[Nachomamma8]

because you forgot how to vote and you're embarrassed to ask me even though it's my job.
it's ok. just copy and paste this and magical things will happen

Code: Select all

[b]Vote: em+p_dear[/b]

[Nachomamma8]

interesting. why is that?

[Nachomamma8]

is there anything else you can use to call emp town?
or is your nose the only thing?

[Nachomamma8]

your trust in me should be irrelevant

[Nachomamma8]

but it isn't

If someone thinks that I'm scum, they should vote me. If they don't trust me but don't particularly think that I am scum, then they shouldn't disregard my case because they don't trust me.

What more is there to say? You suspect me. I don't see that as a town tell or a scum tell. You could be scum voting me, you could be town voting me. I don't yet have a guess as to which. Besides it seems like a lot of others see me as a suspect as well so I'm not all that surprised.

Are my reasons strong? Are my reasons weak? Why did your read change on Majiffy? What do you think of Dyr's townread on me?

My nose is the best thing. Is that not enough? I didn't know Emp was that strong of a read for you.

She is that strong of a read.

Here, are you saying that you don't mind lynching Dry if KK/Em_d doesn't go well? Or am I missing something?

I said that I don't mind Dyr votes.

Also, In one of your games I noticed that you kept your vote on till replacement player for that slot got word in on it, so why did you unvoted here before SK got word in your vote? You did say that next post from KK/SK slot was going to be important in your post #291, we didn't have that yet, so what changed for you?

I'm switching gears because I have a leaning townread on SK, and now would rather push on emp and get a wagon going instead of playing a game for a little while. SleepyKrew is replacing in and I'll get a much better read on him if I force him to give an opinion of my suspicion rather than gauging his response to my pressure. I specifically wanted to see kitiekatt's next post to see how she would post if she knew I was just about done suspecting her.

[Nachomamma8]

What did you think about my kitiekatt case, then?

[Nachomamma8]

(you can also use the quote button on the top right corner of each post. highlighting a specific part of the text and pressing that button will do the coding for you; if you click it without hightlighting, it will quote the whole post)

[Nachomamma8]

oh holy shit
dyrynify, not majiffy
emp, when did your read on drynify change?

[Nachomamma8]

In the meantime, Nacho, who's scum?

Current thoughts are em+p and dyrnify, but they don't work as a team. Myko, Om, and CF are all pretty strong townreads.

If you're so convinced that I've been scum since Post #1 RQS, why isn't your vote on me? For someone so convinced you sure are struggling to find the gumption to vote me. Are you waiting to hear support from the other players first before you try and proceed with a lynch? Seems like you're not willing to take the leap on my wagon if it's not already backed by popular opinion first. You wouldn't need that if you weren't worried about drawing suspicion to yourself.

Soo any suspicions on anyone but me? Or is this a classic case of tunneling 101?

Ping.
Myko has been talking about different suspects, has been voting different suspects. Him not having the balls to vote you is an odd point, and it seems like you're trying to play a "vote me, I dare you" game which isn't a game townies play.

You were so sure that kittie was scum and made a good case against her and then all of the sudden, she's not so suspicious anymore.

Mostly due to her leaving post. I got her to take a position, got her to give reads, and she ended up going after a target that really wasn't that popular at all, which was not a reaction i expected if she felt pressured at all. i wanted to see an additional post to see how she would handle cf's treatment of her vote, but no luck there.

Is this just because of the data the wagon gives or is there another reason?

I've been a bit aggressive with your wagons because I won't be able to read you worth shit if you don't do something, and getting that wagon on you is the quickest way to get there.

As for Majiffy (that's Xeg's replacement, right?) I began to see him as innocent when other people began accusing me of scum. As smash pointed out, I was passive about it and instead of flat out asking people why they suspected me, I went back and reread my old posts and saw a lot of the same things Xeg wrote in his posts. I said some things that were stupid/suspicious, and from an objective point of view, I seemed wishy-washy and easily persuaded/discouraged by others. Initially, these were the very reasons I suspected Xeg, but in comparison, I found that I did them all as well. The more people suspected me, the more I reread my posts and the less scum/more clueless noob I began to see in him.

I like this reasoning a lot.

Could someone play middle man for me since Mykonian is going to do the whole "I'm not talking to you! *plugs ears*" strategy. All I need is for someone not named Smashbard to ask the exact same questions I am asking, since so long as he feels I'm scum he's going to refuse to answer any of them.

mykonian is a more thoughtful player than you think he is

Unvote. Vote: Nacho.

We're not getting anywhere having everyone split within three wagons. Obviously my reasons for suspecting Emp Dear are not convincing enough to everyone else, so yes, I'm compromising with two of my town reads rather than the Dyrnify Wagon because nobody can give me a straight answer as to why Dyrnify would hammer as scum on Day 1.

because he didn't see your intent to hammer
because there weren't any scum on the wagon and he was getting antsy
because he suspected doctor of being a power role and didn't want to give him time to actually claim

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Dyrnify

I thought emp handled my pressure really well. Interestingly enough, the Xegar read that I didn't even mean to ask for in the first place is what's giving me the strongest townread on the slot; it makes a lot of sense that emp would find him town after she was called out for doing certain things and saw Xegar doing those same things. Dyr, on the other hand, has really fallen off since Day 1, which I find pretty fucking suspicious. I thought that if he was scum, he had a pretty good day 1, but today he's not really pushing anyone and only voting emp when it's based on his survival. Also found smash's vote on me pretty interesting and would like for him to confirm that he is voting me using Om's and CF's logic.

[Nachomamma8]

you had one vote, but more people were talking about you as scum
why do you suspect emp? what did you think of her latest posts?
what do you think of smash?

[Nachomamma8]

Dyr, why were you so sure about emp?

[Nachomamma8]

I am looking. Why aren't you voting Nacho with the obvtown wagon of me and Om, instead of the empty wagon on possibly bad-town Brad?

Am I still your scum partner choice if Dyr flips scum?

[Nachomamma8]

sorry for ditching you tracey

[Nachomamma8]

In my first newbie game (I was scum at the time), Nacho was a lot more aggressive in his reads and pushing of lynches, while at the same time questioning almost every player. He only posted once every three days, which apparently was a meta thing. But when he did post he would always question even the guys he thought were solid town reads, like Camn.

You didn't think my push on the doctor was aggressive? You didn't think my push on kitiekatt was aggressive? You didn't think my push on Emp was aggressive? You'll also notice that no, I didn't focus on every player early game. I focused predominately on my scumreads early game, and focused on more players when we approached MyLo. I didn't really question camn until glass flipped town, or chrimmy jailed her and nothing went through, or some shit like that.

His entire day 2 focus has been on Emp Dear until just recently.

Except for that kitiekatt push, which actually took up more time than the emp push.

I think he was starting to realize that his playing it safe by picking on the newbie all day was gaining a crap ton of suspicion from everyone, and as soon as his wagon got more than just you and Om voting for him he started shaping up his play and actually answering questions.

Why would you call emp town?

I'm not considering Skrew as scum just yet because he hasn't posted anything that would lead me to believe he is scummy. He hasn't posted much at all. So he's pretty much the definition of a null read, so in order to suspect him as scum I would only be doing so for policy reasons. I try to avoid that because I've had too many bad experiences of policy lynching newbies and flipping wrong on them.

So it's more like you're policy ignoring him and not factoring him into any of your possibilities for scumteams at all? Still doesn't exactly make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

"this game"
if i'm understanding you properly, the answer should be a lil' obvious. otherwise, clarify.

[Nachomamma8]

I still think Nacho is scum though.

CF why do you think I am scum?

ok up to speed.

VOTE: nacho

this needs to be lynched

trollie
tell me why

oh, nacho. I asked you if you talked about the game. You evaded that question. Kindly don't do it this time.

can't answer your question if I have no idea what you are talking about
clarify.

Smash completely ignored your post #423
You don't have anything to add on that?
Something isn't going according to plan, is it?

I have been a non-presence this game since the 7th of January.
No I wasn't going to pick up on Smash ignoring my post if I haven't been around.

[Nachomamma8]

Trollie's entering posts have also sort of shot my leaning townread of the slot. I want to see him back up his posts with some actual reasoning because Trollie usually ignores me in all of the games we've played together, so it's strange he's coming together with such a strong townread now.

Nacho is scum because his suspects are easy lynches, he's not pushing them nearly hard enough to be town-Nacho, and he's keeping scummy company on wagons and it's not bothering him at all.

cough. cough. cough.
town-Nacho doesn't always go balls-out with his suspicions. town-Nacho doesn't give a shit about the company on his wagon because people on his wagon being his company also helps him get better reads on them.

also trollie
who is your second scumread, if I might ask?

[Nachomamma8]

you can't just point to a post and call it bullshit
pony up and give me a reason why I am scum

[Nachomamma8]

i have to get into the shower, but mostly because your posts are so vapid and useless and all i see in almost every post of yours are feigned a attempts at scumhunting.

my posts are so vapid and useless
and "feigned attempts at scumhunting"
this is the laziest bullshit reasoning I've heard in a while
this is why I am your strongest scumread? and smash is "probably scum" but can wait until tomorrow?
what happens if I flip town, trollie? are you gonna jump on smash with the reasoning that "oh, I guess he really isn't newb town?"

[Nachomamma8]

actually would like myko and cf to get their votes off smash now
if you're gonna pretend the case is stronger on me then it is because of your paranoia, then vote me now
watch dyr not push the emp wagon at all and get stuck into making another scumfuck hammer
watch trollie not explain his vote on me at all
not even a little bit
then let them die

[Nachomamma8]

I heard you talking about the game the night before I asked you. Or at least I think it was you.

Was it?

I posted in thread on January 07th. I didn't say anything to anyone else about the game in any other forum or discussion site.

[Nachomamma8]

not a chance nacho.

why not?
if I'm town, then obviously you guys are fucking something up and I'm pretty sure watching dyr and trollie while you lynch me would help things along because you wouldn't want to be the person that's been obviously, painfully wrong

actually would like myko and cf to get their votes off smash now
if you're gonna pretend the case is stronger on me then it is because of your paranoia, then vote me now
watch dyr not push the emp wagon at all and get stuck into making another scumfuck hammer
watch trollie not explain his vote on me at all
not even a little bit
then let them die

dyr is obvtown

do you disagree with what I'm asking myko and cf to do?
why is dyr obvtown?

[Nachomamma8]

no, not on aim

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand your problem with Brad votes, and this is the first time I've seen you mention Dyr's hammer being scummy.

I believe Brad is town. If he is lynched first, it's likely that you and Om's paranoia will fuck up LyLo. If I am lynched first, I'm pretty sure my gigantic frowning ghost hanging over your heads will be enough for Brad to survive in LyLo. So, I would prefer that if you're going to play the tunnel game, you deal with me first. This is the first time I brought up Dyr's hammer being scummy, yes. I still feel that him falling off today and the only significant thing he's done is to lazily white knight me is the stronger indicator of him being scum, but someone brought up his hammer and I recently reviewed it and I'm agreeing that it looks scummy.

This is where you vote Dyr, the main reason being he's fallen off since D1. You're now saying you've sort of "fallen off" today too. I don't see any mention of the hammer, rather you say his D1 was pretty good.

My lurking has nothing to do with my alignment. His lurking seems like it has more to do with his alignment. When I'm talking about Dyr falling off, it's not necessarily that he's lower activity, but when he does post... he doesn't post anything particularly interesting.

My current follow-up on my suspicion of Dyr is my recent "let's see people all pile on me and watch scumfuck Dyr be forced to hammer". I'm calling him scum more definitively than I was before, and a step up of suspicion is as good a follow up as "oh you didn't answer my questions because you are obviously being a lurkfuck and not paying attention to the game".

[Nachomamma8]

Brad is town for #450. The "I'm going to form my own reads and step this shit up" seemed more like an appeal to himself than to everyone else, and the fact that he was like "yeah, I have a gut read on Nacho being town" and reaffirming the Dyr read would just make the myko/CF/etc. group more paranoid and thus more likely to lynch one of us (which isn't optimal for scumBrad at all), but as town, it makes perfect sense. Some of his conflict with myko seems like he has a few problems with tactics he's using in game and that's feeding into his paranoia, but as scum I feel it would be more likely that he would just ride along on that suspicion to have something genuine to push.

[Nachomamma8]

You sure?

Yeah, I'm sure. There was an appeal to emotion in there, but scum and town do AtE plenty and I didn't see Smash do anything of that sort last time I played with him.

I'm pretty sure he thought Dry wagon was 'genuine' if I go by his own words; ''following experience players'' and now he can't get off of it since he doesn't really have anything 'genuine' to be on other wagon or you two are scum buddies.

If Dyr is scum with Brad, Brad wouldn't follow so quickly after I dropped my reasoning. The 'genuine' push that I'm referring to is the push on myko, which I figured he'd just go for if he was scum.

How did that turn into ''my gut read says nacho is town'' in 2 pages? Looks like case of bad guts if not the bad scum

if you felt you were getting pushed for shitty reasons and you saw the other person getting pushed for shitty reasons too, then you'd probably get a town gutread too

I read word 'paranoia' one too many times in this post, attempt to misrep wagon against you?

it's a paranoia wagon
"pushing easy targets" is not really a good argument

[Nachomamma8]

Links?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22799

He would if you two are scum buddies, any opportunity to shift vote from you to dry would've done him good.

Unless the point was to distance; following your scumbuddies reasoning onto a lynch isn't always the best idea if you want to separate yourself from them.

Wait. What myko push? Explain pleas, I seems to have missed something.

I'm talking about the minor arguments myko and Smash have gotten into over non game-relevant things.

If he thought you were getting pushed for shity reasons he wont vote for you in the first place. But he did, he got gut read from 2 pages you haven't posted at all or no one gave any so called new 'shity' reasons he already didn't knew of.

I'm guessing he did a little rereading as opposed to what was originally a sheep. But I see your point.

It is, for one; town push for lynch of the scummy people and scum push for weak/easy ones.

Sometimes the easy lynches are the right ones.

I believe Brad is town. If he is lynched first, it's likely that you and Om's paranoia will fuck up LyLo. If I am lynched first, I'm pretty sure my gigantic frowning ghost hanging over your heads will be enough for Brad to survive in LyLo.

I'd probably still want to lynch Brad if you flipped town. That said, if both of you are town then yeah, we might be screwed cause I'm so ready for you both to swing and your appeal to fear doesn't sway me in the slightest.

It's more of an appeal to pride, but I don't actually expect it to do anything until I actually flip.

[Nachomamma8]

TROLLIE
WHY IS DYR OBVTOWN
WHY AM I SCUM
TWO QUESTIONS

[Nachomamma8]

okay we're getting somewhere
why am I scum?

[Nachomamma8]

okay.
now why am I scum?

[Nachomamma8]

jesus fucking christ trollie that was like pulling teeth out of a goddamn walrus
so i am happy with you being town again

[Nachomamma8]

so thank you

[Nachomamma8]

I thought my posting has been pretty fucking awesome. I've been all over the place, but that's fine. You and myko call me out for gummybear posting, but I'm just a big gummybear I guess. I've attacked easy lynches, sure, but players are easier to read when they are under pressure, and I couldn't read them while they were bein' lurkfucks.

[Nachomamma8]

WHAT ABOUT YOUR TOTAL 180 ON EMP BETWEEN THE BEGINNING OF #399 AND THE END OF #399

THAT WASN'T A 180 TROLLIE
THAT WAS ME SAYING THAT EMP AND DYR WERE MY SCUMPICKS
AND THEN I SAW EMP MADE A GOOD POST
SO I WAS LIKE
WELL
I LIKE THE REASONING
LET ME CHECK MYSELF

[Nachomamma8]

now i feel alive
i specifically want dyr to hammer since you guys already have brad in your sights

[Nachomamma8]

YES

[Nachomamma8]

SCUMFUCK TOOK THE SCUMFUCK BAIT
HE DIES TOMORROW
NO QUESTIONS

[Nachomamma8]

god he even spelled my name extra right so his vote was double sure his quicklynch vote would count
motherfucking murder him

[Nachomamma8]

then you can get brad
the townread on him was so i could call trollie scum and make him step it the fuck up
he did. he's town.

[Nachomamma8]

no need to apologize, om
i haven't been lynched like this in a while
i feel so

alive

[Nachomamma8]

Anyways, less skitzo posting and more dead man analysis.

As far as the newbies go, Om and emp are town. Om is town as fuck for pointing this shit out, for pushing my wagon, and never budging. He never resorted to getting me lynched with paranoia as other newbies have talked about doing sometimes (hence why I was bringing that up in the first place, to see how he reacted to it). Emp is town as shit for how she reacted to pressure. I thought she handled it fucking excellently, and her not really seeing the things that make her town and questioning them and attacking me for calling her town was like, damn that's town as shit. Dyr isn't a newbie but he's still scum as fuck, obv. I figured he was avoiding this game for a reason and would take the easy bait for the quickhammer; also figured that people were stuck enough on tunneling me that scum would try to distance from each other while white knighting me, and so getting Dyr lynched this way means that Brad won't get any towncred from that lynch if he's scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Harder reads that I'm still as sure of. CF is probably 99% town even though he could snow me. His early play was giving me some super strong town vibes, and his later play hammer that shit into the ground. The push on me was pretty genuine, with him laughing at my appeal to fear while pushing Om to post more because cares about someone pushing a hard read with him. Also going after me was a bit of an iffy move for him as scum. While there were all newbies, he was essentially taking his influence out of the lynch, which is what allowed me to play around with the kitiekatt/emp reads a bit. And where there were veterans, he was okay with switching his vote back and forth even though he would pretty much have to leave me alive in LyLo and it'd be a hell of a lot harder to get me lynched there as opposed to here.

[Nachomamma8]

Trollie is also town. I have to admit my scumdar went crazy at the beginning of the day when he was doing his nacho is scum, dyr is obvtown shit because dyr was a pretty strong scumread then, but his case on me with subsequent followup was pretty much strong as fuck town trollie. He does have a tendency to avoid me in games, but he occasionally gets strong reads that he invests his soul into and the read on me was like that, hence that immediate back-off. In Always On, we were both scum (he didn't know i was his partner, I didn't know I was his) and everytime I tried to confront him, he flailed a bit and escaped away. In a marathon I observed that I can't really be arsed to find, he had a similar skirmish with a similar player, but instead of backing down, avoided giving reasons before BOOM. case. 99% sure he is town too!

[Nachomamma8]

myko is a scarier read for me to make, but I sort of think that I can read him now. His predecessor's early VT claim with the whole "oh wait nobody will know if I'm telling the truth or not" was town as fuck. Coming to another site's meta and pulling a move like that as scum is a fuck no. Xegar voting and Dyr prematurely hammering is also a move that isn't likely to come from scumbuddies, so interactions are good. And I like that myko gave real people wheels to my wagon with the whole "he's gummybear posting" which is the same thought Trollie had which shows me that they have similar thought processes. Him also getting distracted and pushing the smash lynch instead of my lynch is typical town myko, and there's not really any reason he would do it as scum. So he's pretty solidly town as well.

[Nachomamma8]

Smash is scum, thanks to PoE and some sexy, sexy icing. The fighting with Xegarus is useless and posturing for a push to mislynch later, which happens later in the day and really sucks. His townread on Dyr was founded terribly, and the later attack on him for asking a protective role to claim was a scumbuddy being waaay too jumpy. The "because I KNOW Dyr is scum" is also some obv obv bussing, especially since he hasn't taken any steps to explain that shit. The "oh and I have a gut townread on nacho" is pretty much exactly what Dyr did; they didn't actually look at my play, they just white knighted because there was a decent chance I was getting lynched anyways. Emp, Nacho, Dyr scumreads were literally who everyone else suspected and was RIDICULOUS sheeping, his #450 didn't help that at all. It's a huge ball of AtE and man that shit sucks.

[Nachomamma8]

so yeah
lynch the fuck out of dyr's scum ass
laugh at brad in lylo
and then lynch the fuck out of him too
gl

[Nachomamma8]

OH
and since i can't get forced replaced anyways
i think that myko thinking that i was talking to tracey about the game is a pretty town move. he wasn't trying to get me modkilled; he was trying to read me.