Newbie 1310: A WILD CHARIZARD APPEARED! - GAME OVER

[kitiekatt]

Bah! I am cute and so excited to be here! Hi VOTE: em+p_dear because this name confuses me and I can't figure it out.

[kitiekatt]

1) What draws you to play the game of Mafia? What are some of your favorite things about the game?
I've maybe played once online....years and years ago...or maybe I read through games, I can't remember, but I'll say I love in-person mafia, I think it is so fun to try and read people, differently depending on whether you've played with them or know them really well or not. I enjoy talking things out and working in groups anyway, the group dynamic is fun for me. Online....I am excited to see how reading people/statements is different on here, and continue with the group dynamic.

2) Do you tend to take the game very seriously and become aggressive/defensive or do you take a light-hearted approach and just go with the flow?
Eh....usually I'm not too serious with it. It is a game after all. My competitive streak is there, but I'm going to be more open with my play and work with the people round me. So i would tend to say I'm more light-hearted. Don't quote me on that later though!

3) How much do you value your gut reads in comparison to another players reads? Do you tend to doubt yourself or tunnel your suspects?
This goes to the answers to all my other questions, I'm gonna of course have a gut read on people, but I myself enjoy weighing evidence and hearing other people's opinions. That being said, I don't know anyone else's position, so I've got to take that into mind when listening. My gut feeling (or educated read) is most valuable.

@Smashbard- Thanks for answering your own questions first! You sometimes don't see that. You mentioned you might get more aggressive in your reads.....does this correlate to the amount (or severity) of your gut feeling? Or would you say you're just generally more aggressive?

[kitiekatt]

@Dyrynify

Also, why would pointing to an earlier claim some how magically dispell any scum like behavior in the future?
How would it be a town tell?

Your whole accusation looks like it was made for the sake of being made. If anything thats the most scummy thing to have happend so far.

Sure i made a RC early but in no way is it a scum tell and it really doesnt stand up as a town tell.

Wut? Making a RC early is in a long way to a scum tell. And yes, it doesn't stand up as a town tell necessarily, which is why you shouldn't have done it. I think you're one of the few here that doesn't think this is kind of scummy (or at least a bad idea), and it is a very good reason for a vote for you.

In sum, almost never RC, and never claim law student, lol.

[kitiekatt]

Hi everyone.
@kittie- I'm looking forward to this myself. ^ ^
By the way em+p is just an abbreviated name for the character Emily Parsons I used during nanowrimo. I'm not quite sure what the "dear" is there for either...whenever I join a forum, I usually just choose the first thing that pops into my head with no real significance.

Thanks em+p_dear! Now I know where that came from Welcome!
UNVOTE: em+p_dear
I know it's not necessary but it helps me keep things straight with my own voting.

[kitiekatt]

@Xegar-

I think you make a good point that you RC'ing vanilla town right now if you're scum isn't going to do much for you in the future because I think a lot of players are not going to hold on to this RC through the end of the game and give you more town-deference because of it. To say, if you are scum, I don't think you'll be able to hide behind this RC for the whole game.

But I don't think Dyrynify's vote is something hasty. You making the RC was kinda shocking (And I'm still not sure why you did it at all) and looked really bad that you just busted out with it right away.

Em's vote seems to come because D's vote makes sense. We have time till the deadline and if she wants to put her vote somewhere for now, I don't think that's as concerning. I do think it kind of sounds bad the way she put it....but I'm sure she's not trying to say she isn't going to think for herself. I would hope.

[kitiekatt]

Hi Nacho-

I see the vote for Doc cause he answered the random Q's and posting crap, but I'm wondering why. A lot of us answered those random q's (which I think is what you're referencing as posting crap), was there other crap he posted or something other than the answering of the random questions that makes him more scummy? Cause if it's just for answering those questions that could be a lot of people.

[kitiekatt]

@ TraceyLyn11-

I'm also not voting.

~Whoops. Vote counts 1.2 and 1.3 have been fixed.

[kitiekatt]

Wow. Consider my jaw dropped. I'm sad I only have one vote. @Smash, I'm interested to see post 132 again when you get home from work, cause I think there's something there, I just can't see it.
@CF, the only reason I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here is cause you've played more than one game, so I know you're not completely oblivious, but that was crazy. Since when did band wagoning become the cool thing to do? @Xegar, if you're to be believed, you're not a power role, and you wouldn't have secret info yet from a night action, so you're mysterious "I'll tell you later" is just disconcerting.

VOTE: Xegar

I'll be waiting for that reason.

[kitiekatt]

@ Xegar- I didn't vote you just cause of you withholding your reason for voting Smash. It was also the RC. Those are the two big reasons. The RC alone wasn't enough to do it but the reason withholding did it for me. I agree with what others are saying that the pressure can work even if it is known to be pressure. Did you feel Smash was scummy before CF said anything? Why did you so readily run with what CF was asking you to do at the time?

@CF Bandwagoning scum is good if it actually gets scum lynched. But if we don't know who is scum and don't have any night information yet, then bandwagoning with no reason gives us less info to work off of. If we talk it out, we can still see who jumps on a vote (just like we would in a bandwagon), but we also have their reasoning behind it.

@Nacho- Why do you have a preference for me as scum?

@Nacho, Not anymore.

Om, What does this post mean? I'm not getting it in the context of Nacho's post before it.

PS- Sorry I can't quote everyone else that I spoke to in this post, I don't know how to quote multiple posts yet when I post.

[kitiekatt]

Thanks CF!

What's your take on TheDoctor wagon?

I seriously had no idea why it was going on until Nacho I think it was clarified that it was because, from what I gathered, he was talking less about game stuff and had just answered the random q's. It struck me as odd for CF to jump on right away, but he had his reasons, and then when Nacho came on I just assumed Brad (haha, loving it!) felt more comfortable coming in after an IC weighed in on it. I still don't really get a scum read off of Doc, I did an unvote (albeit not in the same post) and was worried myself about annoying the mod....I also initially had some real misgivings with posting things just for the sake of sharing my opinion, and didn't post as much as I would have liked in the first few pages cause I didn't have this fantastic original thought or question. So I guess it seems less scummy to me. I'm not ruling him out I just didn't jump on the wagon.

[kitiekatt]

Is he in your top 2 suspects?

Yeah, it's Xegar and then him (but Xegar is pretty scummy). I'm not seeing the scum in Smash.

[kitiekatt]

Is he in your top 2 suspects?

Yeah, it's Xegar and then him (but Xegar is pretty scummy). I'm not seeing the scum in Smash.

What do you think of Xegar's outed reason?

Like I said before, I think you can put pressure on someone while still saying it, so I think it was another bad move of him to hush up and act all secretive about it. I think pressure while being stated can be much more effective, and unless there's role alliances I don't see how he expected to build up pressure besides his own vote (which didn't put Smash at L-1, so wasn't it's own pressure by itself) with such a wishy-washy answer when he was already looking scummy to so many people. It doesn't add up to me.

Could you try to re-evaluate both Doc and Xeg by going trough their ISO and tell me what you think again, if possible?

Are you looking for me to say something specific here Om, or are you just not satisfied with my take? Request kind of sounds like a teacher whose student got the answer wrong, but you don't wanna say they're wrong, so I'm wondering if that's how you meant it or not?

[kitiekatt]

ok. I've got a brief due in 3 days, so I'll try and do the ISOs either tomorrow night, or Sunday night. Complete with fancy multiple quotes now that I know how to do it. That should also answer your questions/concerns too Nacho.
@Om, Is Xegar your top town read for good reasons or for no good reason? That part in the parentheses confused me.

[kitiekatt]

@ Dyrynify: Yeah, that is what I was wondering too. Is there any good reason scum would refuse to kill? If a jailkeeper or doc wasn't present/didn't save or examine the right person, is there any good reason for scum not to kill? Genuinely curious cause it seems like a newbie move to not kill someone if you're scum- or someone was not watching their inbox.

And Nacho, I know you've had suspicions against me most if not all of the time, I just wanna get it out there that if it's because I didn't do an iso, it's because I cannot stand doing them. It's just homework. We can all read. That is why I couldn't bring myself to do one on both the Doc and Xegar like Om asked....it was overwhelming me, and then the hammer happened.

[kitiekatt]

Hey Om, my reads from day 1 are not the same as they are now. I was thinking Xegar/Doc as top two scum, but I'll tell you, if I sounded wishy-washy day 1 it's cause I didn't have a strong scum read on either of them (and obviously my scum-dar needs to be recalibrated since Doc wasn't a good read). Your (Om) post #200:

His RC (which is not pro-town but not a scum motivated either, hence a bad reason) and his overall reaction filled with semi admittance of genuine mistake and semi defensive arguments when pointed out why RC is a bad idea is a good town tell for me.
Plus;
He immediately called out our IC, usually scum's are very happy to have laid back IC when they commit mistakes, specially considering the situation he was in and his apparent inexperience, that's town+ tell for me.
34
This one was good.

I still don't like how he followed CF to jump on Bard, but it's not scum motivated either, no reason for scum to stick their already troubled neck out in the open. To my surprise; it seems to have worked though.
That only further solidifies him as my top town read.

Do you still find him scummy? Yes, why?

helped me realize that I was giving Doc a lot of excuses for the scum things he was doing as newbie moves. But Xeg's moves all looked like newbie moves too, so why wasn't I giving him the same excuses? After reading that post I went MIA and was going to come in and unvote then the hammer happened and it became moot. Giving Xeg the same benefit of the doubt for similar newbie moves makes even more sense to me now that we know Doc was town. So in short, I'm not getting a scum read on Xegar anymore, and of course not Doc.

However, there are a few things that are disconcerting to me about other people.

CF: I don't know if it's just the playstyle that gets me or what.

Nah.

You can explain why you think I'm town though.

This post really gets to me. Flat out refusing to even try to explain a vote after being asked directly. I'm not the best communicator here apparently but at least I'm trying to explain my reads.

@CF, what was the reasoning for just not explaining yourself? Was this a quiet pressure thing like what Xegar was trying to do?

Also, Em hasn't said a lot at all, which concerns me. I was more concerned after she said she came back and made an "I'm back" post, but then didn't say anything else, but we know she was on the forum cause she jumped right in when twilight happened. I see the substance post just made, which makes me feel a little better.

@Em, when you say "mutual disinterest" about the Doc and I, do you mean that you were thinking we were disinterested in each other? Or do you mean you thought we were paired up? Also, can you bring it together for me, is Dyr suspicious to you now? Or are you just listing things he did? Also, are you saying Xeg may have a grudge against Dyr or the other way around or both towards each other?

[kitiekatt]

@CF, what was the reasoning for just not explaining yourself? Was this a quiet pressure thing like what Xegar was trying to do?

I figured Doc was scum and I don't feel the need to explain myself to scum.

@CF: Under this logic, you would never ever explain your vote, assuming you're voting for people you think are scum (which you would be). Is this really what you are saying?

@Nacho, no strong enough scum reads as of yet, just suspicions which I stated. I can say I don't think Dyr is scum, for reasons stated, I think even a newbie scum would know to just back off and let Bard hammer, no reason to think he wouldn't have followed through.

I do have another question though for anyone who can answer it. I'm thinking specifically about Nacho and CF, but other SE's and IC's as well: I think in newbie games we're giving sort of a deference to them, assuming (rightfully I think) that they know how to play, looking to them for advice, generally valuing their reads, etc. BUT, if they are killed, and you can't talk after you're dead, aren't we losing valuable guidance? Would we then just save our questions for the end game? Dead people can talk in the endgame, right?

I was tossing this around in my head last night. If an IC or SE gets killed (whether or not it's a scum or town kill), we lose that experience. Can someone who has been in a game with SE's or IC's before help me out? How did you handle this? Are there ways to provide info/guidance in game without them? Or does it all have to happen after end game if they get killed?

[kitiekatt]

So, the most important thing that an IC/SE does for the game is get it started. Oftentimes, people don't really know how to transition from no information to actually finding scum, so the only actual job that an IC/SE has is getting things started and making sure that everyone pretty much knows what they're doing. The rest of the advice we provide is just icing on the cake; none of what we do is actuallyneeded. I'll also be around after the end of the game to give some feedback on everyone's play during the game (unless I forget, but just PM me or something and I'll return), so my death only means that any information that you would've had during the day will come a little later than you thought it would. I can also give more specific advice when the game is over and everyone is flipped.

Em+p seemed townish as far as early game reads go, but then after the game went on and I was able to flip one of my suspects and read other players better, the town read erroded plenty. You can't really dismiss people in this game after you get a townread on them, or else it only takes strong early play and the town is fucked.

What does it mean to say you flipped one of your suspects? I understand the word 'flip' when we learn for sure that someone was town (like Doc), but what does it mean when you or someone flips? Is that just saying someone is giving more of a town vibe now than a scum vibe or vice-versa? Or is it involving some sort of concrete information?

My biggest problem with kitiekatt is her passive nature. That in and of itself isn't exactly scummy, but the fact that she doesn't make any significant pushes and the fact that she doesn't actually seem to be searching for scum makes it suspicious. Her only significant suspect for all of D1 was Xegar, but reading her ISO without context doesn't really show her pushing it any after her vote. Her original vote on him was because of him witholding his reasons for voting (she also states it was because of the roleclaim, but considering she didn't put the vote on him when he initially did it, I'm assuming that the witholding of the reasons was a stronger point for her), but when Xegar explained his reasons, she didn't explain why she still had her vote on him until I asked her about it, and the explanation that she gave me sounded more like she was justifying why her vote was still on Xegar and not trying to explain why she still found him scum even though her initial reasons became invalid. There's also her suspicion of CF, which has earned a lot of lip service from her but no actual votes or significant pushes. She's asked him a lot of questions and called him her second strongest scumreads yesterday, but no mention of him when I asked for her scumreads today. So right now, it seems like she's afraid to make a push on CF because he's an experienced player, but doesn't really know what else to attack, which leaves her in this awkward position as scum.

So here's my deal. To me, I think a vote is a big deal. It makes me seem passive because I'm not gonna vote like a crazy person all over the place. I'm skeptical and it does take me a hell of a long time to make a decision. This is in all of life as well as in this forum. I'm gonna weigh everything and try to figure things out. Plus, we've seen, it takes me a bit longer to digest everything. I'll do reads for D2 to be more aggressive about it, but some of them are just gut reads.

Also, I didn't call CF my second strongest scum read on day one, that was Doc, which I was completely wrong about. I didn't have any scum read on CF until today. And I mentioned CF today, he came up in my statements of suspicious behavior. Here's the convo from D1:

Thanks CF!

What's your take on TheDoctor wagon?

I seriously had no idea why it was going on until Nacho I think it was clarified that it was because, from what I gathered, he was talking less about game stuff and had just answered the random q's. It struck me as odd for CF to jump on right away, but he had his reasons, and then when Nacho came on I just assumed Brad (haha, loving it!) felt more comfortable coming in after an IC weighed in on it. I still don't really get a scum read off of Doc, I did an unvote (albeit not in the same post) and was worried myself about annoying the mod....I also initially had some real misgivings with posting things just for the sake of sharing my opinion, and didn't post as much as I would have liked in the first few pages cause I didn't have this fantastic original thought or question. So I guess it seems less scummy to me. I'm not ruling him out I just didn't jump on the wagon.

Is he in your top 2 suspects?

Is he in your top 2 suspects?

Yeah, it's Xegar and then him (but Xegar is pretty scummy). I'm not seeing the scum in Smash.

I was talking about the Doc wagon when you asked me if "he" was in my top 2 suspects so I thought you were talking about Doc. Doc was my second suspect in D1, which I mentioned how that didn't go so well at the beginning of today. I briefly mentioned CF but wasn't scum reading him, just pointing out it was odd.

Reads:

Smash: Town. Good questions. I may be giving deference cause I see him as an experienced player.
Om: Town, did well to persuade me against Xegar, working hard to hunt, asking q's.
Xegar: Town, but I would like to hear from him today. Is he off V/LA?
Nacho: Town, asking lots of probing questions, while I am under his radar I feel like he's doing a good job working on clarification, not just baseless accusations.
Dyr: Town. I don't think he was really asking for a role claim after Night 1, just positing on the existence of a jail keeper or doc.
Em: Kinda scum. I can't blame her much for not posting at the beginning, but still some major lurking at the end of day one/twilight and beginning of Day 2. Less scum now that she's answering questions.
CF: Scum. At this point he hasn't even answered my questions, but still posts to be witty.

And I'll go for it if that will make him say something other than sitting back and waiting to be convinced. VOTE: CF Riot

[kitiekatt]

Oh man, this was a good game. I've been following it when I can even though I had to replace out. Sorry I couldn't have stayed from the beginning. Gonna try again when the newbie queue gets around and I have a little more free time now. I now know I need to learn how to hold up under pressure. The whole first day I just wanted to scream: "I promise I'm town! I just suck at what I say!"

The whole time you all would look at Trollie it was like I would tense up. It was so hard to get reads for me, even just reading through the game. Good play Smash. I had you confirmed town all the time. Om, at first I was town read on you, but end of day 2 and day 3 you just sort of stopped saying anything for a while, which looked really scummy, but then Dry did it more, so I was with all of you on the Dry read.

Good game you guys!