The Wire, Season 1 - Final Credits!

[Cerulean]

Vote: McStab

FYI: I normally don't sign my posts in hydras because I'm a lazy bastard but if enough people are bothered by it I'll do it (though honestly, we should be really easy to tell apart - I'm an emotionless drone and Tammy's the opposite).

[Cerulean]

Unvote, vote: Shadoweh

How to Win At Mafia, Empire-style:

1) Read Shadoweh's #79 and #86
2) Realize that they are both full of shallow, fake scumhunting complete with a shitty attack on Benmage and a question to Arthur that reads like she's more interested in swaying his vote than actually interested in his thoughts.
3) Vote Shadoweh for mafia 2013
4) Townread Empire (optional, but recommended)

[Cerulean]

It's shitty because, at the time you put down your vote, Benmage made two off-hand comments complaining about Arthur's RP'ing. Most of his ISO is devoted to questioning CDB about his absta vote and some miscellaneous setup stuff. Voting him because he's "pointlessly griping" is laughable and it just reads like you're taking the easiest shit to attack him on.

(P.S.: The other head thinks you're scummy, too.)

[Cerulean]

Only have time for a short, quick post at the moment since I have class all day today.

Yes because obviously Benmage is the easiest person to attack here, well known for getting frivolously quicklynched on the first day. His posts are throwaway comments on mod flavoring and rp complaining. If you were to actually read him you would realize he only has two questions, which he concludes with 'I don't know'. He's still on his McStab first bvote. I think it's really passive, especially for someone who I've always seen pride himself for throwing himself into the game, taking charge and outright having to tell people he wasn't going to be super active in a game.

Ok when you lay out all of those reasons, I can see where you're coming from on that vote. My issue now is this: why didn't you mention all of that when you put down the vote and just voted him on the RP complaining? The way it came across to me at the time was like you were cherry picking just one aspect of his play and attacking him on that. Also, my impression of Benmage's meta is very different but I'd rather talk about this later.

Thoughts on our vote?

It's a fine vote in the sense that it's understandable. Thing is, for us, Tammy and I just got out of a game with both heads of that hydra and, at least as far as I'm concerned, just recently starting to get a hang of their respective meta. Konowa (who has been making most of the posts in that hydra so far) has a tendency to be pretty passive and lurky as both alignments but the degree to which he engages in the game is different when he's town vs. when he's scum. I don't have much of a read on them right now but I feel like they'll become easier to read with time so ask me again in a few pages?

Tammy's been busy with work lately but she might be able to sneak in some posts while I'm gone so you'll hear from her soon.

[Cerulean]

Hi everyone!
I want to say up front- my work schedule is mad these days... but I will do my best to vote keep my activity level up. Mostly when I get home I just eat donuts and cry... but I can probably post every day, too.

Second- no reason voting sucks. FoS: EVERYONE ON THIS PAGE.
BUT... I cant vote for all of them...so

vote Shadoweh

why sign up with no flavor knowledge? I don't believe it.

Camn - Do you really suspect people who give no reasons for their votes on their first page or did you need to say something to sound busy. Because I know you see the value in voting with no reasons so what are you doing here?

I don't like black people, I'm requesting a white man role

^^^^

you must be a member of the cops then lol

Responds to Vifam's question and basically says if you're white you are a cop and therefore scum in this game.

Just out of interest does anyone have a white person PM? This is semi-important.

On second thought, decides to ask if anyone has a white person PM? Because gambits are so town! Poorly thought out.

Wait, all the bad guys in this show are BLACK?

What the hell

EXACTLY

Way to blow my gambit ffs.

Uh. You ruined your own "gambit". Felt fake anyway.

Yea but there is not one white person in the Barksdale crew from memory. So anyone claiming a white guy would be not town.

The lawyer who keeps our asses our of prison is white. Probs only one though.

[Cerulean]

Oh hey Arthur - Two things. Did you really pick the strung out drug addict for your avatar. Bubbles is cool and all, but man you couldn't pick someone really cool?

I aint the type of person to deny a man his fun, and you look like you be having fun and all, but if I don't see real content

product

delivered between your shitposting and rp, Imma pop a cap in your ass. You feel me?

[Cerulean]

Also, it's quite amusing to see someone attack me right on my first post, real Mr-Look-I'm-Town-Here, y'know?

How many times have I heard you say that all posts count towards someone being scummy...doesn't matter if it's the first or the last? Now why are you whining about someone attacking your first post?

Unvote, vote: Shadoweh

How to Win At Mafia, Empire-style:

1) Read Shadoweh's #79 and #86
2) Realize that they are both full of shallow, fake scumhunting complete with a shitty attack on Benmage and a question to Arthur that reads like she's more interested in swaying his vote than actually interested in his thoughts.
3) Vote Shadoweh for mafia 2013
4) Townread Empire (optional, but recommended)

Okay Mr. Robot.

Can you put the other one who can actually read me on the line

so I don't have to listen to the creepy teddy ruxpin doll spitting out recordings on reading me? Your analysis of my question to Arthur is correct, I want to sway people who seem to be looking at my suspect to actually look at the other things they've done and see if they think they're scummy or not. What a fucking crime. And if you think it's a shitty attack you can tell me why it's shitty instead of expecting the reader to fill in the blanks, because THAT'S what makes a case shitty. Like yours.

Unless of course you think the two idiot floaters are proof that you have someething going there.

Why do you always flirt with my other heads? As far as me being able to read you though, I've been pretty wrong before and read you as strong town when you were scum in ADwD. Other head thought your reads seemed shallow. I don't mind that kind of thing in first posts, especially considering that I'm a bit of a slow starter and have shallow early reads. I didn't see the point of the vote on Benmage as being a serious vote since it seemed mostly because you're annoyed that he's annoyed with rp. And the griping seemed a little over the top as I couldn't tell if you were actually annoyed or trying to fake town annoyance. The other thing that bothered me was the question posed to Arthur in Post 86 as it felt off. You've never really respected Arthur's opinion before and have expressed irritation with him, so appealing to him seemed fishy.

However, you telling empire to put me on the line because I know how to read you felt townish.

whilst scum will no doubt have been given fakeclaims it's almost a certainty that they'll be more minor characters (at least comparatively).

Er. Have you played in a Farday-modded Theme game before? Because this is almost certainly

not

true. Faraday likes to give the scum nice major-character fakeclaims.

(Psst. Tammy. We're not voting yet. Discuss.)

~ Pless

*Checks the date the game started, and how a good number of people haven't even checked in* *Shrug* But I think it's really cute that you want me to discuss your not voting and calling attention to it as if it means anything. If you'd like to discuss that, I'd be interested in hearing it.

What I'm more interested in is why on page 5, you've decided to comment on the lamest possible thing ever which has already been chimed in on.

No comments on anyone or anything in the game? That's what I'd like you to discuss.

Agrees with #99.

Thoughts on a Mass Name-Claim? Apart from being fun I actually think it has pro-town utility; there are certain town aligned characters that will be in the game, whilst scum will no doubt have been given fakeclaims it's almost a certainty that they'll be more minor characters (at least comparatively).

Just throwing it out there, also:

#77 / #78 are just wut? Frankly when people think a game is moving at a glacial pace the right post is one that generates chat, anything else rubs me the wrong way.


VOTE: Shadoweh

You deserve a roundhouse kick to the head for bringing up this stupid idea that had already been talked about as a stupid idea. I know you read the game because you comment on posts 77 and 78, so you saw it brought up, saw the answer, and thought you'd bring it up again.

[Cerulean]

Vote:Ser Arthur Dayne

I agree with Benmage. The RP is not helping and is annoying.

Bubbles is a scum CI anyway.

Are we voting off people we find annoying these days or scum?

dayne is town. his roleplay is the terrible-est, fakest reason to suspect someone ever. its not even hard to understand. its low hanging fruit for scum, something easy and mindless to attack. looking at you here, benmage and safety dance. jason is probably town though, and needs to get a better vote.

cerulean is town. empire has got to be the easiest person to townread on the site.

i support the shadoweh wagon, but i also support my other head's nost vote

And I thought I was the easy one. It's too soon to tell for arthur though, townreading him because he's rping is really naive. Although if Jason is scum, which both of our heads are leaning towards, dayne is most definitely town.

Oh hey Arthur - Two things. Did you really pick the strung out drug addict for your avatar. Bubbles is cool and all, but man you couldn't pick someone really cool?

No? He's prob the coolest character for me from s1 (the only season I've watched thus far) ._. I mean I get the Omar hype and stuff and still think he's awesome, but Bubbles' subplot is amazing. Wee bey is kinda cool also.

LOL! I almost told you you should have gotten an Omar or at least a Wee bey avatar if you wanted to be cool. (But, Bubbles subplot was pretty cool)

I aint the type of person to deny a man his fun, and you look like you be having fun and all, but if I don't see real content

product

delivered between your shitposting and rp, Imma pop a cap in your ass. You feel me?

Nah nah I feels you. And I do be deliverin' content, and have. Ain't no Miss Missy, but I'm trying over here, y'know?

*fist bump*

[Cerulean]

I think it's really cute that you want me to discuss your not voting and calling attention to it as if it means anything. If you'd like to discuss that, I'd be interested in hearing it.

I

am

cute. Thanks for noticing! But actually I was just being snide. I do that (I don't think it means anything, obviously. But you've said that you do, in the recent past.)

Well, I figured that and thought you should have some condescension in return.

And besides I already figured you were cute

I do look at that, when it hits me, but I think it works better at Westeros than here.

What I'm more interested in is why on page 5, you've decided to comment on the lamest possible thing ever which has already been chimed in on.

Okay, so 103 is "the lamest possible thing ever" to comment on. Got it.

You deserve a roundhouse kick to the head for bringing up this stupid idea that had already been talked about as a stupid idea. I know you read the game because you comment on posts 77 and 78, so you saw it brought up, saw the answer, and thought you'd bring it up again.

Heh. This

was

deliberate, right?

Heh. I like being hypocritical, but you have to admit my comment on it was way cooler.

(Zar says you're town though . Is that true?)

Didn't comment on anything else because I didn't think the first five page of the game were very interesting (Arthur's RP is irritating and he should stop it, but I doubt he will just because I say so and I don't think it's any sort of alignment-tell). Zar told me he didn't like Shadoweh's reaction to the wagon on her, but he didn't tell me why (he's apparently "busy" ) so you'll have to wait for him to expand on that.

~ Pless

I am always town, but I don't believe you! Zar either has finally learned how to read me or is just reading Empire. Admit it, you're the one townreading me aren't you?

I'll be interested in hearing his thoughts on Shadoweh.

[Cerulean]

Although Pless - Why haven't you asked any questions or poked at anything?

[Cerulean]

I am always town, but I don't believe you! Zar either has finally learned how to read me or is just reading Empire. Admit it, you're the one townreading me aren't you?

Well, Zar thinks he's town-reading both of you, but only because he thinks you posted 99. Which is wrong, right? But a town-read on Empire is a town-read on your slot, so.

~ Pless

I didn't make any posts yesterday. Empire and I talked about a couple things, Shadoweh being of them, briefly last night, but I was taking a break from mafia after the game in westeros this week burnt me out. My first post is Post 126

Yes, a town read on Empire is a town read on me. But an easy way to read Empire, a post like Post 94 never ever comes from empire!scum.

I'll respond to Shadoweh later, now *work*

[Cerulean]

I just got back and I'm exhausted so you're just getting another super drive-by post from me tonight.

The gist of what I said is still the same though. I said he was doing nothing but rp complaining. All I've done in that post is explained it better. I'd also rather talk about if you agree with those reasons then continue to talk about me, as subject which doesn't interest me.

Eh, I disagree, I think Benmage is townish, largely due to the meta reasons I alluded to earlier and I'll expand on that more when I'm not literally about to collapse on my keyboard.

Also, I've skimmed through some of your meta and I've learned things.

Unvote, vote: Jason

[Cerulean]

Cerulean- Encouraging us out of the RVS. Randomly naming names is the worst kind of first page. But- no longer relevant.
And- why not just post as the hydra? This talk about your internal discussion with the other head.... it confuses me.

So, I followed along on my phone earlier today at work, and was all ready to ask you about how you thought giving Shadoweh a toothless vote in Post 21 was in any way shape or form encouraging us out of rvs, and was going to vote you because I thought you were scum. BUT then you went and made Post 196 and voted Pless, which I think is a productive place for a vote right now. (Think Jason's a better place for a vote, but Pless is good too) and you just let the wind right out of my condescending sails. Hurm.

What do you mean by a hydra post? Do you mean like empire and I sit down and formulate posts together? That's not going to happen. We should be one of the least confusing hydras you could come in contact with short of people writing formulated posts. We're both super easy to read (apparently rofl gave the easy award to empire though), work well together and read people in a somewhat similar way

or empire smacks me around a little until i agree with him

. I'm not really following the confusion; we're going to reference each other but we shouldn't be hard to follow. (If you think we're confusing, you should have seen Dayne and me as a hydra)

I do like your vote on Pless though, but not necessarily for why you voted them. Majiffy and Thor were lynched for a similar thing in rarefaction and came back innocent. I also know that Zar is rather busy and was tied up modding a game at another site, and their discussion over whether or not I was town and what post Zar was townreading me on felt kinda real (not sure of this at all) but I do know that sometimes Pless is more active than Zar. What I do think is your major point is that Pless has pretty much no content whatsoever, and his statement that there wasn't anything interesting happening doesn't make any sense. His coming in and commenting on the massclaim was a throwaway, and I'm much more used to Pless getting involved even if nothing interesting is happening. He should be poking at people and at least asking some questions to make something interesting happen or to try to get reads on people. But he's not. I'm still reserving judgment on this though and think that once they actually start participating I'll be able to get a better read on them.

[Cerulean]

Quick pre-work post

Yes because obviously Benmage is the easiest person to attack here, well known for getting frivolously quicklynched on the first day. His posts are throwaway comments on mod flavoring and rp complaining. If you were to actually read him you would realize he only has two questions, which he concludes with 'I don't know'. He's still on his McStab first bvote. I think it's really passive, especially for someone who I've always seen pride himself for throwing himself into the game, taking charge and outright having to tell people he wasn't going to be super active in a game.

Ok when you lay out all of those reasons, I can see where you're coming from on that vote. My issue now is this: why didn't you mention all of that when you put down the vote and just voted him on the RP complaining? The way it came across to me at the time was like you were cherry picking just one aspect of his play and attacking him on that. Also, my impression of Benmage's meta is very different but I'd rather talk about this later.

The gist of what I said is still the same though. I said he was doing nothing but rp complaining. All I've done in that post is explained it better. I'd also rather talk about if you agree with those reasons then continue to talk about me, as subject which doesn't interest me.

I don't think the tells that you've referenced on benmage are all that meaningful. Benmage is empire's strongest townread at the moment, and I agree that he looks like town, but benmage himself has warned me about giving him a town read too early based on his belief that his scum game is flawless. So, I actually don't agree with your reasons because I think as scum he'd probably take a different route and he's actually behaving how I've seen him behave as town. (I've only seen him as scum once but he was dead before I replaced into the game so I don't count that for knowing his scum meta.)

You as a subject does/did interest me though because getting a handle on you would make my life easier.

Why do you always flirt with my other heads? As far as me being able to read you though, I've been pretty wrong before and read you as strong town when you were scum in ADwD. Other head thought your reads seemed shallow. I don't mind that kind of thing in first posts, especially considering that I'm a bit of a slow starter and have shallow early reads. I didn't see the point of the vote on Benmage as being a serious vote since it seemed mostly because you're annoyed that he's annoyed with rp. And the griping seemed a little over the top as I couldn't tell if you were actually annoyed or trying to fake town annoyance. The other thing that bothered me was the question posed to Arthur in Post 86 as it felt off. You've never really respected Arthur's opinion before and have expressed irritation with him, so appealing to him seemed fishy.

Because they are coming between us. I figure that having seen how I both flail as town and pretend to be really adorable as scum you would have to be able to see the difference by now. If I were just annoyed with annoyance I would have yelled at Benmage instead of voting him. As for Arthur, I appreciate people who get into character. Maybe I like him better as a crack addict. When it comes to canvassing for support I'm not picky as long as they vote for my scum.

<3 I do feel like I'm getting better at reading you, but there were those couple things that struck me as off. I've thought your comments and reactions read townie today and my meta king other head skimmed a couple of your games and has also come around to that. I feel like I read you pretty confidently as town in mafiastuck but you can't begrudge me being a bit extra careful after adwd. (Though I do feel like I especially can read you once the game has gone on a couple days though)

[Cerulean]

(If you think we're confusing, you should have seen Dayne and me as a hydra)

Thought you'd find that amusing.

Wow there are too many wall-y people on that list. All of ya should get together like once a week and summarize what you all said or something, cuz some of us here don't like too many words, ya feel me?

Yo.

[Cerulean]

Commenting that SAD and Cerulean are townie is a waste of time here, more talk about people that can actually be scum.

hang on, what? when is it ever a waste of time to comment on townreads?

Actually that read fairly townish from Shadow.... Cerul does ready pretty obvious town, and I wager my best town read thus far (although that's just from my shitty reading at work).

The point Shadow was making is we don't need everyone putting in the facade of 'reading' people by naming Cerulean town.

no, it sounds like he really doesn't want anyone to become a universal townread. you know who doesn't like a lot of universal townreads running around? scum. if everyone thinks cerulean is town then everyone should say they think cerulean is town.

This is a bit of a stretch. Scum don't need people to point out who the universal town reads are, they can tell quite readily from reading the thread even without the town map. And I really doubt shadoweh!scum would care that people were giving town reads for that purpose.

[Cerulean]

People stating opinions is a good thing. It ties them to those opinions for later.

qft

I'm not trying to stifle reads... And if you want to mention cerul as a town read go nuts... But time could be better spent analyzing the null reads. Thats my point at least.

Cerul has read town, like I said before. Does that mean ignore him, no.

Yes, please don't ignore us. I mean I don't mind, but empire has a fragile ego

[Cerulean]

Nostredeus is scum. Brings up a bad idea WITH an implicit suggestion, that scum would have minor roles. This reads to me like scum who has a fakeclaim that isn't minor, thereby trying to divert suspicion from himself. Then he gives up the idea at the slightest pressure.

Vote: Nost

Also those attacking Ser Arthur Dayne really ought to question themselves as to how after seven pages of content the main scumread they have is on someone for talking in character, who obviously loves The Wire (any true fan of the Wire frequently quotes it and would be excitable about it).

That being said, I don't get a scumvibe from Benmage. I DO get a scumvibe from SafetyDance; but Nost is scummier.

Also GreatAmericanHero got townier since last time I posted.

I'm of two minds with this post. On the one hand I think your push on nost is reaching because he reads fairly townish in his response, and really what would your opinion of him been if he had clung to the not wise thing of mass name claiming?

BUT I like that you find safetydance scummy because he's a scum read of ours too. Although that could be one of those things where you make sure to point out the scumminess of your partner, but not vote him, so you can be seen as suspecting him.

So, I'm spin cycling where you're concerned.

[Cerulean]

Good lynches:
Nost
Camm
Petapan

Okay, this goes

why
why
And bitch please, explain yourself

[Cerulean]

Easy enough. Our names are now in our sigs as empire and I will be referring to each other.

The disagreement thing is something, I'm not real sure why you find suspicious, but is going to happen. We're two people, but like I said earlier, we work well together and read people pretty similarly, and although we talk about the game and leave messages in our qt for when we can't, there's going to be differences, especially considering Im princess wafflesalot and he's much more decisive.

[Cerulean]

Hmm, I've got a fair few townreads, but still unsure as to scumreads. I don't really have much of an opinion on Shadoweh either way yet either.

Jason? MacStab maybe?

I'll think more on it a bit later.

Are Jason and mcstab your town reads or your scum reads? If scum, you should vote Jason.

[Cerulean]

Quick post before going to bed, will catch up tomorrow. But Vifam constant one liners and lack of real content really sit wrong with me. I have him marked as scum already but so far seems to be trying to coast through the game doing very little.

Vifam - How is DV fake no matter what? Can you go into a bit more detail please... making empty statements like that is not really good for you right now.

So, if I told you that scum wall posts like the one in Post 122 that don't really add any content to the game and are made to look like you're busy isn't good for you right now, do you think you'd step it up and start providing content?

[Cerulean]

Ok so I just woke up and I've found the time to read the thread a little more deeply. Apologize for the length of the wall.

~~

@Shadoweh:

Ok so I feel like you deserve a longer explanation regarding the whole Benmage meta thing. I'm well aware of Benmage's reputation but the fact of the matter is that I actually

have

seen him be nearly frivolously lynched D1 as town. For example, take a look at this recent game (which I followed while ongoing) where scum actually tried to push a last minute counterwagon on him to a lynch on one of their own. He spent a decent portion of that D1 lurking and got attacked for it by a decent amount of people. So despite his reputation in games, this one showed me that can be attacked as an easy target despite it. Your vote on him in the early part of the game for "pointlessly griping" reminded me of that especially when I took a look at his ISO up to that point and got a very different impression of his play (e.g, I felt like his play was more than the two comments).

About his meta more generally, Tammy and others have told me in the past that Benmage prides himself on having "the best scum game on the site," and as such, he's much more aggressive and engaged as scum. He also tends to look down on people who are lazy or don't try very hard when they're mafia. As town, he's pretty much the opposite, I feel like he's a bit more passive and he can get pretty lazy and lurky. Regfan wrote a very concise summary of it here in ADwD, a game I feel he's playing very similarly to. I also took a look at one of his somewhat recent scum games here and I think you can pretty clearly see the difference (take a look at his interactions with MoI especially). All in all, I feel pretty good about Benmage being town and he's probably my strongest townread here so far.

I also took a look at some of your games to get a sense of your meta. We played together in Mafiastuck (I was part of Epic along with petapan) but I townread your slot mainly because of some stuff Working Manju said. I think you're playing more like you're town self (Mini 1376/Weather Mafia II vs. Otherworld/GvE).

~~

@Pless:

I don't see how SafetyDance's vote on Arthur in #113 is overexplained at all, in fact my problem with it is the exact opposite - it feels extremely lazy and undercooked. What bothered me about it more than anything, though, was that he basically sidestepped all the major topics of discussion (e.g., the early setup spec, the Shadoweh wagon) just to park his vote on Arthur like that. It comes off to me as the epitome of scum laziness and opportunism. #117 is basically gratuitous filler to make it seem like he's being contributory and helpful. Also, Jason being vaguely genuine about Arthur's RP'ing seems like something easy to fake as scum and I have a lot of problems with his play (Tammy's mentioned some of them already but I think #122 has way too little actual content in proportion to the size of the post and the attacks on Arthur/Vifam are shallow).

Normally, I have a pretty easy time reading Arthur but I'm struggling this game I think largely due to his RP'ing. Tammy's told me his scum game has been improving, though, citing the recently finished Westeros game. Do you and Zar feel like he's playing similarly here or not (and why)?

Tammy found the intra-hydra back and forth regarding your townread on our slot to be genuine but I'm not so sure, I think something like that could be easily faked from you guys. I don't really trust myself to be able to read your slot given what I've heard about Zar's meta, though, so I'm pretty much delegating all of that to her.

~~

@Sotty:

Where is Zach and why hasn't he been posting that much?

(Yes, this deserved a giant bold header.)

~~

I have some weaker townreads I'm not ready to talk about yet because I get the impression that a lot of people are struggling getting reads this game and I don't want to ease people into the game. I think our scumreads at this point are pretty well stated and both of us agree on the Jason vote. SafetyDance is not a bad vote either though. I'm kind of eh on McStab, I think his attack on Nostredeus is pretty shitty and applies too high of a standard for him regarding his level of competence. Not sure if it's scum motivated, though, need to see more from him.

[Cerulean]

vifam delivering one liners isn't relevant to his alignment that's just how he posts also he's p clearly posting content so ur dum imho

What do you think of Vifam's alignment in this game based off the content he's been posting? Do you have reads on anyone yet, and if so, what are they?

[Cerulean]

@mod

deasvail is voting Jason per Post 251

~Fixed

[Cerulean]

TL;DR Vote Nost.

I don't feel like it.

(More votes for Jason.)

[Cerulean]

vifam delivering one liners isn't relevant to his alignment that's just how he posts also he's p clearly posting content so ur dum imho

Calling someone dumb only works if you can actually use correct grammar, punctuation and spelling and not with the result that you make yourself look dumb in the process.

This is a town reaction to an insult. Not that strong but it's good enough to make jason leaning town.
The insult wouldn't really apply to scum-Jason (assuming Vifam isn't scum) so he could've just ignored it. Plus, this looks quite genuine.
He's only slight town because faking the reaction as scum isn't hard, I've done it before.

So your alignment determines how offended you'll get to being called dumb? Good to know. I was thinking that was a personality thing.

[Cerulean]

Fuck that, there's too much.

@Shadow - What's wrong with my posts?
---

@Cerullen - Why is Safetydance scum to you?

Post 258

[Cerulean]

That was back when I gave a fuck and was on tryhard mode

Vifam is scum for using the word tryhard.

Have I played a game with you before? Your name sounds familiar.
---

Petapan is prob scum finding it hard to create reads.

DV is slight town due to meta (from memory).

Is this post a joke or are you being serious? Not being snarky, I really want to know if this is a joke post.

[Cerulean]

Fuck that, there's too much.

@Shadow - What's wrong with my posts?
---

@Cerullen - Why is Safetydance scum to you?

Post 258

[Cerulean]

@cerullen - If I called scum player a retard for having shit reads for example, it wouldn't really apply because their reads are made up. Town would get pissed off if they were insulted like that. Personality plays a part but Jasons response looked genuine.

Why is safetydance scum to you?

P-Edit: DV is a slight town read. Peta is prob scum.

He wasn't called a retard for having shit reads, he was calle dumb for claiming that a posting style was alignment indicative. He returned an insult. People get offended at getting called dumb, not certain alignments. And Jason's warning to vifam read really fake, but I really don't care about his reaction to being called dumb. What do you think of the actual content he's provided so far?

So, is it your experience that scum have a hard time giving scum reads. This game is a minefield of scummy behavior already, and any halfway competent scum would be able to pick something up and go with it. Getting actual reads is much harder than making up a read, especially if you're trying to discern the scum from the scummy posts. So, the scum read on peta for not being able to make up a scum read is really lame.

[Cerulean]

The disagreement thing is something, I'm not real sure why you find suspicious, but is going to happen.

Lets stop talking about you, and start talking about

Plessizarus

The whole idea that they are having an internal DEBATE is predicated on the assumption that they are town, which I can't do at this point in the game.
If they are scum, then certainly there is no

disagreement

about who is scum, right? But it is TOTALLY in their scum-interest to give us that impression. How? By telling us all about their disagreements! Im sure they would post a QT to 'prove' it, if that werent against the rules (and famously faked in the past)

It's like they are distancing with another player- which is obv scummy this early in the game- only the other player is THEMSELVES, so we cant even lynch them for faction association.

Which is why they get my vote.
Because in THIS case.. Plessizarus is stating that they are having a debate of sorts, in fact in 135 they refer to some opinion that one of the heads has that they miraculously have time to discuss in the QT- but not in-thread.

That, to me, is one of three things.
a) blatantly anti-town. We need to hear the discussion.. the reasoning.. the data. We need it.
OR
b) a lie. There is no internal discussion, because they KNOW everyones faction already... and they are just saying that to look town (as outlined above)
OR
c) misdirection. They are Power-Hunting or SK-hunting in the QT.. but they flip the script to look like they are SCUM-hunting.. for reasons just explained.

Savvy?

I'm not sure if I'm following some of this. I don't see where they had an internal debate or tried to pretend they did. Pless said that zar said he didn't like shadoweh's reaction to her wagon, but not why because he was busy. (this makes sense as its the type of notes I've left if I'm in a hurry and want to discuss later.).

And he said that zar was townreading me because of mistaken identity. They're not even disagreeing, and I'd wager that pless was half teasing me with part of that. We're all friends and play at another site. It would make sense for them to try to get a read on me first, so they could put me to the side and have someone to discuss things with If they wanted. Zar has a history of reading me as scum when I'm town (though after seeing me as scum recently a couple times I think he's picking up on how to read me as town) while pless reads me as town mostly. And " zar is reading you as town based on post 99 which I don't believe is you" seems a little pedestrian for them as scum. Now I could see him going look Tammy's already being bitchy and it's not even page 4 or something and that conversation being touched up for effect, but that also doesn't seem natural.

Leaving notes for your partner in the qt is really quick, especially when theyre half formed. empire and i have notes on players in our qt and aim log we really haven't mentioned yet in thread for a variety of reasons. And I didnt get the impression from that that they had a discussion, so much as zar left his thoughts in whatever they use, and pless had read them.

To address your:
A) I'm going to chuckle at this. Trust me you don't want to see this. There was a point in mafia stuck where dayne and I were posting at the same time, and instead of going to our qt, we just outright starting discussing and debating our reads in the thread. Most people didnt appreciate seeing the discussion and asked us to take it to the qt every time we did it, we weren't always cooperative, and other people went "look they're trying to fake hydra dissonance since everyone thinks that's town.". There's really no winning. Most of the time you can tell when it's real and when it's not as it's not really the easiest thing to fake.

The others I'm not going to address, they're valid points but I haven't seen even the slightest evidence of that happening yet, so I'm not going to worry about it.

[Cerulean]

Also, on my vote S.A.D which seems to be attracting attention.

Yes, I find his annoying. Yes, I will vote someone to pressure them to stop the annoying roleplay, especially when we are in the preliminaries of the day. It's not necessarily a scum read but its an unhelpful player being stupid (imo) and deliberately obfuscating. No one else is doing it, there's no rules saying we have to rp and if I check his post history will I find him acting like this in other games? I don't think so. I would not rather end up in D2, D3, lylo etc etc with this guy acting like he is, it's not going to help when things get serious. Better to comment on it now then spring it up as a "reason" on later days.

Now, I like The Wire too, I enjoy it and in fact am in the middle of re-watching the first season as well, I have all the discs. That doesn't mean I'm going to suddenly burst out into wannabe-terrace slang in a game devoted to trying to read people.

On the contrary to those thinking its scummy to point it out, I think it's incredibly scummy of those who are throwing weak scum reads for weak reason such as this. I think those that want a person being a fool to keep acting like it and are defending him, I find that scummy too.

Oh, and whoever it was that claimed its scummy because of jumping on someone who already had a vote? Damn, you're going to have you work cut out with all that scummy play every time someone gets more than two votes.

Safety Dance's 113 is either bad at mafia or scum. Not sure whichh yet.

How many 42-player vig free-for-alls have you won? Thought so. Bit early in the day to be criticising someone's play, especially when you're not really going off a large sample size to go off.

Just because I don't fit into whatever square-peg, modus operandi scumhunting you adhere to, doesn't mean I'm not doing any myself.

I value observing and reading as much as I do typing. In a large game, with a lot of unfamiliar names, with limited time at the moment, with egos walling each other, yeah I'm not going to bring up anything unless it really sticks out.

Yes, he rp's in games sometimes. No, he's not going to stop because you vote him. How about you start looking for scum instead of whining and fluffing. I want to see actual content. If you think sad is scum, why?

And, no offense, pretty sure your happy for winning the free for all, but you were declared the winner, and you were scum. How does that equate to you being good at mafia? (besides, I was locked and loaded and redy to take you out if the game would have played out. >_>)

[Cerulean]

Yes, he rp's in games sometimes. No, he's not going to stop because you vote him. How about you start looking for scum instead of whining and fluffing. I want to see actual content. If you think sad is scum, why?

And, no offense, pretty sure your happy for winning the free for all, but you were declared the winner, and you were scum. How does that equate to you being good at mafia? (besides, I was locked and loaded and redy to take you out if the game would have played out. >_>)

I survived it didn't I?

I never said I think SAD

is

scum. I made one post with the vote and asking for it to stop, when I was last in the game, I come back and make one post defending my position on it.

Question, why is it ok for Plez to find 100-odd general posts boring without much need to comment on but if I didn't feel the need (or have the time to extensively cover it) too, that makes me look scummy?

So, are you voting him out of policy then? Your vet was odd because you just agreed with benmage and then brought up the bubbles thing. Now, I can tell you that he did change his avatar sometime back, but I also would not put it past Arthur to put his avatar as bubbles even if he were scum and was bubbles. So, the avatar is a null thing anyway.

That coupled with you pointing out the player list and not really commenting on anything but trying to appear helpful read scummy.

Couple things regarding pless. Where do you see me saying its all right they didn't provide content. In fact i know that at least three of my posts have been on that very thing, in one I said pless was a productive vote because of it. So why are you deflecting onto someone about a subject that's already been covered?

[Cerulean]

Stop with the fucking wallposts please

That's about as unlikely to happen as it is for ou to stop posting bitching one liners that lack content

[Cerulean]

This head (Empire) has been busy the last couple of days but I'm free all of tomorrow so I'll have some more time to post then.

[Cerulean]

so vote safetydance, he's still voting SAD when SAD is clearly contributing and playing the game and isn't RPing as much, and is just trying to justify his crap vote instead of moving forward and saying anything meaningful

I don't know dude, I thought Safety's first two posts were really bad but I just read his recent posting and I'm getting the same vibes I got from Nostedeus - basically, that he's just incompetent and not really scummy. I don't think him trying to push a policy-type lynch on Arthur and justifying it is really that bad given his inexperience and how much negative attention he drew from it earlier. Plus, I thought the way he lashed out at TML in #304 with the whole "don't pigeonhole me" type stuff was pretty genuine and townish. I haven't talked to Tammy about him yet though (I think she might still be scumreading him?) and I do agree that he does need to involve himself a little more in scumhunting than self-defense at this stage.

P.S.: Answer this pls (though change the Vifam question to "Why do you think Vifam might be scum?")

[Cerulean]

please tell, what have you learnt from skimming my meta?

I didn't skim your meta, I skimmed Shadoweh's. I thought that post made that clear?

[Cerulean]

Why does anyone townread McStab again?

[Cerulean]

OK, in that page McStab pretty strongly deviated from what I would have expected based on our previous game.

How so?

P-Edit: absta, that's naive.

[Cerulean]

see this is whatb I dont understand about my wagon, lots of Jason is scum... he is scum because of wall posts... but actually shit all explaining as to why I am scum.

Hmm...don't think anyone said hey Jason is scum for making wall posts. Your wall posts comment on really trivial things and lack real content, so it looks like you're trying to comment n a bunch of stuff to look busy and engaged.

[Cerulean]

for real though why are people ignoring safetydance

Why are you so focused on it? He is scummy but scum? Not so sure, why aren't ou trying to figure that out?

[Cerulean]

Really not appreciating Tammy wall quoting.

YEAH f**K tammy

Yeah! Boo Tammy she sucks!

But, baby, what are you referring to and does it say anything about my alignment?

[Cerulean]

so vote safetydance, he's still voting SAD when SAD is clearly contributing and playing the game and isn't RPing as much, and is just trying to justify his crap vote instead of moving forward and saying anything meaningful

I don't know dude, I thought Safety's first two posts were really bad but I just read his recent posting and I'm getting the same vibes I got from Nostedeus - basically, that he's just incompetent and not really scummy. I don't think him trying to push a policy-type lynch on Arthur and justifying it is really that bad given his inexperience and how much negative attention he drew from it earlier. Plus, I thought the way he lashed out at TML in #304 with the whole "don't pigeonhole me" type stuff was pretty genuine and townish. I haven't talked to Tammy about him yet though (I think she might still be scumreading him?) and I do agree that he does need to involve himself a little more in scumhunting than self-defense at this stage.

P.S.: Answer this pls (though change the Vifam question to "Why do you think Vifam might be scum?")

PETA. Answer the question.

[Cerulean]

i think it is a bad move given inexperience because that's what inexperience scum does - they whinge about people being

anti-town

and try to push based on that because they have difficulty calling people actually scummy

Eh, I'm not so sure that's exclusive to noob-scum though. Remember xtopherusD from Mafiastuck? I'm seeing a somewhat similar kind of player here - an inexperienced dude with rigid conceptions of pro-town behavior and playing accordingly.

Jason is still town. I have known the guy for 8 years just about, played mafia with him on and off the last three or four years? I forget. But Zach and myself are pretty great when it comes to reading the Jason slot and we both feel Jason Town right now. He does dumb things like tunnel on the wrong people (vifam) all the time as town. There are only two people I am happy in just straight up reading and that's Zach and Jason. So yeah, that's where I'm at with that. If any of you Jason voters want to show me something in his meta to provoe me wrong then go ahead. Right now I'm just not seeing it.

Him attacking "the wrong people" is not even remotely the issue we have with him. It's the fact that he's attacking Arthur and Vifam for their playstyles rather than anything alignment indicative and there's just an overall lack of substance coming from him (#122 still being the most egregious example). A lot of his posts read like they just exist to make him seem like he's contributing when he's really not. Also, just telling us to trust you isn't going to do much when you're not doing much to highlight the difference between his town play and his scum play. What's the difference between the two and how exactly is he playing like his town self? (For what it's worth, Tammy told me she feels like he's playing more like in TM 2012 Closed Normal where they were scum buddies than in Harry Potter. Tammy can probably elaborate on this better when she comes back, though.)

Shadoweh is still pretty bad. Cerulean, you said you found something about her meta, right?

Yeah. Looking over the games I linked here, I think she's a lot more abrasive as town in her reactions to pressure and her dealings with certain kinds of players (i.e., lurkers) whereas she tries to keep that to a minimum as scum and overall tries to be friendlier. I saw more of the former in her reaction to me earlier.

Since I know you and Shadoweh play off-site, what's your impression of her meta and what exactly do you feel is off about her here?

Shadoweh, similar question to you w.r.t. BT when you get back, please.

[Cerulean]

Hmmm, actually there's something interesting I just found out about SafetyDance I have to run by my other head first. Stay tuned.

[Cerulean]

FoS: McStab

[Cerulean]

Prod dodge for now, really sick at the moment. Camn, I'll respond later when I'm feeling better.

[Cerulean]

Sotty/zach - I don't have any good reason to think you guys are town, so the trust me Jason is town doesn't do anything for me at all. It also doesn't help that a good portion of your content is going to defend Jason, and not by anything other than "trust me". In light Of this I also find it somewhat ironic that you've pushed the "cerulean defending pless thing is irksome or awkward.". I would say its somewhat hypocritical, but it isn't exactly that...it more seems to me somewhat of a selective reading comprehension deficiency. In Post 532 you say that my "defense" of pless came out of left field, which reads odd to me considering that t was part of an ongoing conversation camn and I were having about pless and hydras. It should be clear I was trying to read not only camn but also pless, so I'm not following on the out of left field comment. I also don't understand why you, as part of a hydra who is self-referencing and experiencing "dissonance" wouldn't grasp me trying to make sense if their communication was real or fake. I'm not quite sure what to make of the semi backing off of it in Post 534 though.

I appreciated zach's description of Jason on Post 494 though some of it isn't my problem. I don't claim to be an expert in Jason's meta, I've only had direct experience with him in 2 games + 1 he was dead in before I replaced in. But, I read him pretty early and strongly as town in Harry potter...there were the mitigating factors of the not knowing the flavor dumb tell and one mafia member rvs voting him that helped, but still. He was a strong town read for me for other reasons too. His scum hunting read genuine as did his content. It's not here.

I know some people are town reading him for the gambit, but it reads fake to me.

Theres something else as well that doesn't make sense. In Post 452 you say that you've known Jason for about 8 years and have been playing mafia with him for 3 or 4 years. So what was the point of Post 23. Now from the original post from safety dance we can see that it wasn't listed as just Sotty. There were no names listed as your hydra per Post 117, so what was he trying to prove in that post? I've never played with you guys as a hydra and have limited experience with zach, and even I knew who the hydra was wihtout it explained. That to me looks like a fake dumb tell.

What is odd to me about his vifam thing, whom he's not tunneling on by the way so not sure where you're getting that is the manner in which he spoke to him. The "this isn't going to be good for you" reads off? He sounds fake and cocky in a similar way to how he sounded when we were scum together. He's also not really tunneling on vifam, he's mostly complaining about sad. (which by the way is the only tiny resemblance to what I've experienced with him as town. In hp he went after acosmist and thought he was scum mostly for his behavior)

What I also think is scummy is his complete sidestepping of the real issues people have voiced against him. He repeatedly keeps saying stuff about how we think he's scumm for wall posting, when the point has been brought up that it's that his wall posts contain very little content and appear to just be commenting on things to look busy but are trivial. Now if Jason were stupid, I'd probably ignore this, but I don't think Jason is stupid so this looks deliberate as a means of minimizing the legitimate concerns against him, which makes him look even scummier.

I feel like he's going "how can you think I'm scummy I haven't even done anything scummy yet.". Everything he's posted has just felt so orchestrated, and "trust me" isn't going to work, especially when I'm not town reading you guys.

I'm also not a fan of Post 521 it reads to me "see we can't be scum theyre not bussing!" I just got done playing a game zach replaced into as scum and he definitely didn't "bus like mad". We also hate his posturing around the safetydance wagon.

Ill post more tomorrow *sleep* now.

[Cerulean]

Nearly 100% McStab would flip town after reading him in ISO like I said in one of my recent posts. My vote may well go on Safety Dance as it stands.

More when I get back on.

Okay, why and why? On the off chance you happen to be town, how the hell is mcstab nearly 100% town, and why are you ready to jump on the easy wagon? Show me your thought process.

[Cerulean]

Unvote: Vote: TheGreatestAmericanHero

No way rolfcopter is the passive head in a hydra as town. I just did a search on him and he's also active in site. The alarm bells are ringing.

What do you think of Konowa's cotent irrespective of rofl's activity?

[Cerulean]

Arthur - What's your read on Pless/Zar?

[Cerulean]

Safety - when you come back around, mind giving your top two scum reads.

*was going to try to do more, but I'm in a bad mood, I'll deal with this tomorrow*

[Cerulean]

Arthur - What's your read on Pless/Zar?

Prob null leaning scum.

Have you been very accurate in reading them (either head) in the past? What is leaning you null/scum?

[Cerulean]

Arthur - What's your read on Pless/Zar?

Prob null leaning scum.

Have you been very accurate in reading them (either head) in the past? What is leaning you null/scum?

Not particularly? (I mean I don't remember the last time Zar played a westerosi game, and I don't remember ever seeing Pless as scum on westeros, so meh - I don't remember ever really getting a strong read on them in ADWD either).

And I find their lack of engagement/interaction and seemingly interest to be appalling. Both of them look like they're forcing themselves to post, esp from Zar who looks like he's being dragged to come and post. I actually find Pless' annoyance at Zar not really posting or conversing with him privately rather genuine - but I can very clearly see it as Pless being annoyed at Zar in a scum slot.

Er the last time zar played a westeros game was the marvel game (which incidentally pless rpd a good portion of the game >_>)

My problem with them is the lack of engagement, I said before that I thought that zar was less active due to his modding a game that was running before this game and passed him on that, but he's still not being active, and his new immediate pet project doesn't excuse him from being active here. The only only thing I have towards him being town, is that he hates being town and he hates being unrolled, so if he's decided to check out and leave his partner hanging he might be town.

And I might really believe that just pless isn't engaging in the game at the level I would expect innocent him to be, so it makes me paranoid on them both. None of this makes me think they're town, and them looking like they're forcing to post does ring off. I might expect that from zar, who probs has his own thing that's more interesting, but I wouldn't expect it from pless.

I was just really hoping you'd have some insight as the pless/zar read is something we've been having a hard time with.

[Cerulean]

Spoiler: Response to Sotty

I don't have any good reason to think you guys are town, so the trust me Jason is town doesn't do anything for me at all. It also doesn't help that a good portion of your content is going to defend Jason, and not by anything other than "trust me". In light Of this I also find it somewhat ironic that you've pushed the "cerulean defending pless thing is irksome or awkward.". I would say its somewhat hypocritical, but it isn't exactly that...it more seems to me somewhat of a selective reading comprehension deficiency.

If you can't see the difference of us defending a person we have know for years for what we see as a weak ass bandwagon on them compared to you defending a hydra you have known for months I don't know what to say to you.

Umm. Okay. We've known each other for over a year, but that's not my point. I don't have a good reason to think you guys are town, so the trust me line doesn't do anything for me. Most of your content has been devoted to defending Jason, and if you can't see the point I was making that my comments about pless were anything but coming out of left field as it was part of an ongoing discussion in which I was trying to read two people, I'm not sure what to say to that either.

appreciated zach's description of Jason on Post 494 though some of it isn't my problem. I don't claim to be an expert in Jason's meta, I've only had direct experience with him in 2 games + 1 he was dead in before I replaced in. But, I read him pretty early and strongly as town in Harry potter...there were the mitigating factors of the not knowing the flavor dumb tell and one mafia member rvs voting him that helped, but still. He was a strong town read for me for other reasons too. His scum hunting read genuine as did his content. It's not here.

It's not your problem? A player who knows some one really well steps out to call one of your scum reads town isn't your problem? Let me repeat again, there are only two players I would ever defend THIS HARD. That's Jason and Zach. If you want to dismiss our read that

is

your problem. Don't shift the responsibility to us. As for this being most of our content, well people keep asking us about it. What do you expect?

Where in a million years would you gt that's what I was trying to say? I mean I suppose where you could see that if I squint, but not if you're reading the whole post where I go on to discuss the problems I'm having with Jason, some of what had been discussed were not the problems I was having

with jason

heres something else as well that doesn't make sense. In Post 452 you say that you've known Jason for about 8 years and have been playing mafia with him for 3 or 4 years. So what was the point of Post 23. Now from the original post from safety dance we can see that it wasn't listed as just Sotty. There were no names listed as your hydra per Post 117, so what was he trying to prove in that post? I've never played with you guys as a hydra and have limited experience with zach, and even I knew who the hydra was wihtout it explained. That to me looks like a fake dumb tell.

Ummm? In the sign up it was listed as just me, Sotty. I asked Zach to hydra with me but we were still playing another game and he only wants to do one at at time. That game finished earlier than expected and the night Faraday was sending out the role pms I changed us to the hydra so Jason didn't know until the game started. We have been looking forward to playing together because it has been awhile since our last game hence the post. I mean, I don't get how that is a scum post at all, you are making mountains out of molehills. Jason

knows

the hydra, he has played with the hydra, but he didn't think he was going to play with the hydra in this game.

So a simple he was talking about the original sign up thread in the queue, which was never changed, would have been helpful.

A lot of this is just so much reaching. What it comes down to is that there are much better lynches today than Jason. We will not be voting Jason unless something changes. I don't know why you are trying to change our mind it won't happen. This is probably the last time I will address this to you because I feel like I am repeating myself over and over

You are responding so oddly. Why would you think I'm on a crusade to change your mind. I know when someone has a strong town read, nothing is going to change their mind. I'm just pretty baffled and don't know how to respond to this.

~Tags fixed as it was fucking up the page

[Cerulean]

Dammit. Can I just once to mess up the spoiler thing?

[Cerulean]

*not mess up. I clearly shouldn't be typing this morning.

[Cerulean]

Cerulean, let's try a different tact.

Assuming we're town, how likely do you think it is that we're wrong about Jason and that he's actually scum?

Assuming we're not town, how likely do you think it is that Jason is scum vs us going out of our way to white knight him?

Consider the answer to either scenario there while you're working out in your mind whether Jason is still worth pursuing at this point in the game.

How hard is it to see that I'm trying to read all of you?

I've gone through each of the scenarios you've proposed. I know Jason's not getting lynched today. He knows it, you know it, the entire town knows it. But, it happens to be important to me that I have my reads as right as I can get them, and if that means me going over what is bothering me I'm going to do it. I don't care if it seems like I'm reaching or if it's silly, you can point out to me why it is. I'm not interested in stubbornly holding onto a read that will end up being a detriment to town, I'm interested in having accurate scum reads.

[Cerulean]

My problem with them is the lack of engagement, I said before that I thought that zar was less active due to his modding a game that was running before this game and passed him on that, but he's still not being active, and his new immediate pet project doesn't excuse him from being active here. The only only thing I have towards him being town, is that he hates being town and he hates being unrolled, so if he's decided to check out and leave his partner hanging he might be town.

Cerulean, would you mind signing your posts just for these exchanges? Because if I'm talking to Tammy I'll feel silly for saying things she probably already knows, like "Zar decided it would be more fun to work on a uPick game at Westeros than play this game, and apparently it's going to start on Thursday". At the same time, it's pretty obviously relevant to his current lack of activity. I'm ... not sure why he agreed to hydra with me if he was going to be this busy? Meh. (I'm reviewing that game, too, and it's pretty much the only thing he talks about on IM recently .)

Yes, I am aware. My point about that is twofold though. I had said earlier that he was busy so it made sense that he wasn't too active as he was in the midst of modding a game when this game started. But, that he decided to rush to put together another game and ignore this one doesn't. However, his not doing anything with the game is probably a sign you guys are town as even if the game were uninteresting he'd probably make some time for it if scum since that is his preferred alignment.

And I might really believe that just pless isn't engaging in the game at the level I would expect innocent him to be, so it makes me paranoid on them both. None of this makes me think they're town, and them looking like they're forcing to post does ring off.

I might expect that from zar, who probs has his own thing that's more interesting, but I wouldn't expect it from pless

.

Ouch.

For the record, even I can find more interesting things in life than this game. However unlikely you might find that to be. This isn't even the most interesting game I'm in on this site.

dont lie...I know you have nothing better to do

My experience with you is to poke t things even when the game isn't all that interesting is all.

I was just really hoping you'd have some insight as the pless/zar read is something we've been having a hard time with.

Tammy (if this is Tammy?) -- wouldn't you think you were normally better at reading us than SAD is? (Admittedly, I've never been scum in a game you've played in either, but you at least seem to default to reading me as town while SAD defaults to reading me as scum )

Or does "we" mean your heads aren't in agreeement?

There are a few people I'm better at reading than Arthur. I don't remember him scum reading you, really the only wtf read I can think of is his tendency to scum read regfan.

We, as in empire and I, aren't disagreeing with each other where you guys are concerned. He accepts and agrees with the reasons you guys are probably town, for the most part, or he hasn't said he disagrees. We basically have you as weak town, but I don't feel really confident in that and I feel like I should be right now. I've never had a problem town reading you in the past, but I'm feeling unusually uncertain right now.

I also was trying to get a better grasp of my read on sad. His scum game has changed a bit, so some of my markers for town reading him aren't really valid anymore and I have to look for other things.

[Cerulean]

Tammy I think you broke the page for me.

Mission accomplished

[Cerulean]

Cerulean (Tammy/Empire hydra)
Benmage
camn
McStab
The Mini-Librarian

Vifam

BT
ChannelDelibird
Baby Spice

^ These people are town btw except maybe Baby Spice.

I know this is 10 pages ago, and mcstab has since replaced out, but why do you have a town read on him and Cdb if you still do?

[Cerulean]

OK.. I can see that.
I read that as Cerulean still carrying on a little bit about our ADMITTEDLY OFF TOPIC discussion of hydras.. But reading it now I can see what you are saying.

Cerulean- is that what that was? were you defending Plez against me?

I was discussing the hydra situation and attempting to get work out my read on both of you.

[Cerulean]

If Zar likes being scum though (and hasn't been scum/played in a while) wouldn't he be more eager about things?

My thoughts on Pless are pretty limited right now. It's basically that Pless is possibly trying too hard to be chatty. Sometimes his posts take on a kind of conversational(?) style that I think could be fake. Other than that... I nothing much either way, but I don't find them particularly scummy for now.

Yes, I would expect him to be more eager, which was part of my point. He has played recently on mafiascum though, it's just been a few months from our other site.

Pless is writing in his normal style though.

[Cerulean]

But, baby, what are you referring to and does it say anything about my alignment?

Alignment wise it's pretty much null tell. It's just annoying when people quote large chunks of text. Ok, they appear much bigger when reading on the phone. (I assume it was Tammy doing it by the way she described the difference between her and Empire's postings)

Yep, that was me. Sizing down the text you're quoting on an iPad can be a pain in the ass, and when I'm posting quickly while on a break or something, I don't bother with the sizing.

[Cerulean]

Unvote: Vote: TheGreatestAmericanHero

No way rolfcopter is the passive head in a hydra as town. I just did a search on him and he's also active in site. The alarm bells are ringing.

What do you think of Konowa's cotent irrespective of rofl's activity?

Scumolious. Check our ISO for details, then think about joining us here.

The only real issue I have with any of their posting is rofl's Post 153 and rofl's lack of activity. This activity level is pretty typical for what I experienced with konowa recently though. And as I've just played a game with konowa, I looked through his scum meta and when scum he tends to be really passive and not asking direct questions of people all that much. If I were just judging konowa, I'd think they were townish. But, I hate the post I just linked by rofl. Empire says it sounds like town rofl and thinks konowa sounds like town too, and roll does make these sorts of posts as town, but this sounds like trying to stretch something really far to make something sound like scum, which is what I remember rofl being like when we were scum together. I think empire thinks I'm just being paranoid or something because he changed the subject last time we talked.

I can link the scum games I looked through later if youre interested, but I'm heading out to work right now.

[Cerulean]

Note to self - iso nost.

[Cerulean]

The only real issue I have with any of their posting is rofl's Post 153

out of interest, what is your issue with it.

It sounds like stretching the meaning to make someone sound scummy. I can't understand where someone would reach that conclusion. To accuse her of trying to stifle universal town reads doesn't fit with anything that had been said by shadoweh, especially after the thought process had been explained by Ben.

[Cerulean]

he hates being unrolled

^What does this mean?

That was me mostly thinking out loud for what conditions I would expect zar to not be active, or really not communicate much with his other head. Being busy is one reason, but as he put together a game at another site to mod this week, I don't really count that. Zar doesn't especially like being town, unless a game has interesting mechanics. He also finds being vanilla town really dull. So, the fact that he left the game up to his other head means it's more likely that he's town. The unrolled part doesn't really mean much, as I know he let his other head take over a good portion of the game in buckshot mafia even though they were rolled.

[Cerulean]

Wait tammy fill me in on zar-meta in the marvel game (that's the one he played and I'm assuming he was town in?)

I was able to read him pretty easily as town. He was active but not overly so, made the correct push on scum early day one. Some had some bad scum reads on him towards end game. But, that's a bad game to ask me about. I replaced out early day one, and it was my birthday weekend, so I skimmed the game some mostly after the weekend was over.

He has a recent town and scum game here on mafiascum though that you can check out that would probably be more helpful.

[Cerulean]

I plan to re-read both TML and Cerulean (sp?) as pet first wagon theory makes me want to look at them closely.

We've never had a vote on us, much less a wagon. TML hasn't had much of a wagon either. If you mean you're looking closely at the people who were on the first wagon, which was mcstab, why aren't you looking "closely" at everyone? And since we started the wagon, and you have a pet theory, whatever that is, and you wanted to look closely at that wagon/random people on the wagon, wouldn't logic dictate that you ask why we started said wagon?

Or are you just throwing out a random theory and a need to iso random people so you look busy?

[Cerulean]

(was that one of the juicy drama games?).

[Cerulean]

I know Jason's not getting lynched today. He knows it, you know it, the entire town knows it.

Why are you still voting Jay?

I haven't had a chance to talk to Empire since Monday about the game at all, and we agreed that our votes would be hydra votes. I don't know if he wants to pursue Jason still; I doubt it I think he'll see Jason's not getting lynched today also. And I don't know where he's interested in moving it. I would have said McStab, but I don't know if he's still interested in that since the replacement.

[Cerulean]

oops, meant to click preview

@BT: Shadoweh's early play is town 100%. It amazes me there was a wagon on her that reached to 4-5 votes. I could quote specific posts but I don't feel like bothering with what should have been obvious.

@Jason: Well her wagon kinda sucked some ass so I'm not about to give any credit to her wagoners. In particular I found 153 scummy and GreatAmericanHero's overall tunnel on Shadoweh overblown.

I only used "had" because this is from memory since I stopped paying attention for a few days. I most likely will vote him after I fully catch up.

@trio of Benmage, Camn, and Mini-Lib: LOL. I have no shame. I had forgotten for about .5 secs that Townies this game are part of the barksdale assiociation, so the red scared me until I realized I was town.

@Benmage: I didn't want to be scum this game when I had 3 super town-reads. I'd have to fake not thinking that way

What a bit of scum posting.

"Oh Shadoweh is obvious town to me because I play with her at another site and am really adept at her meta so anyone who doesn't see she's obvious town whether or not they know her meta is sketch" is utter bullshit. You sound like you're going "Shadoweh, I'm coming to your rescue even though most everyone decided they were wrong anyway but you can read me too, do you see I'm defending you? Do you? Do you? Please call me town!"

Why in a million years would you have to fake having your town reads if you were scum? I've replaced into games as scum and followed along having my strong townreads and didn't have to change them. Scum have to have town reads too, so claiming you couldn't have them is what.

You just sound so fake.

[Cerulean]

You not even votin' seriously yet!

Good point. Vote stands.

@Ben - I think I'm on page 9 but I've been skimming the walls. I gave my read on jason because he's the leading waggon.
---

@Safety - You've seen that SaD isn't responding to your pressure and you've stated that he isn't exactly a scum read. Why are you still voting him?

On the contrary to those thinking its scummy to point it out, I think it's incredibly scummy of those who are throwing weak scum reads for weak reason such as this.

I don't understand this. Can you explain it please.
Also, town-you would be voting these increadibly scummy people or deffenders over SaD who isn't really your scum read.
VOTE: Safety
---

@peta - I wanted to catch up fully before I voted.

Stop fucking posting so much. I've been sitting here trying to post this fucking post. FUCK!

This made me feel twitchy when I saw it the first time, but reading through this morning it irked me again.

The first post here is at 5:05, and the second post is at 5:07, and you're flip out "fuck I want to post but can't because you're posting so much" post came at 5:09.

Can you explain where all those phantom posts that are keeping you from posting your ultra important post came from?

I'm not even sure why it's bugging me so much, maybe because it sounds fake, maybe because the majority of your posts sound off. Dunno.

[Cerulean]

It's precisely posts like these that made me feel the need to get out those reads. I'm assuming this is Tammy. You do not understand people, and least of all me. Just because the wagon is off of shadoweh now doesn't mean everyone else thinks she's solid town. maybe leaning town, but I don't remember anyone calling her firm town besides maybe benmage.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I think Shadoweh's tone has sounded like her usual town self, and that's meta, but I have her as town due to her play and her early reads, which is decidedly not meta. Her votes for Benmage earlier and her vote for TML were both coming from a town mindset. In particular, 210 when she *sees the light* and get's off of Benmage because she saw that he was reasoning like she was, and unto TML, was the move that solidified my town read of her.

Your failure to read her was a failure to read townie play.

As for my meta, as scum I do not like having to call people town. Because I have to stick with the reads once I do that and my voting options become constricted. It's an uncomfortable experience.

And this post is a pretty good indication of why I think your slot is scum. It's so stilted. You haven't felt the need to criticize my ability to understand/read people before so you feel the need to now? A good portion of my job is understanding people, so your "you don't understand people" shtick sounds like crap for undermining purposes.

It's precisely posts like what that made you rush to go benmage, shadoweh and bt are obvtown guys?

And so what if my failure to read her at first was a failure to read town play. You might have seen her vote on Ben as being town reasoning, we didn't.

You've only called three people town, btw. There are more town here than that, are you failing to be able to read town play?

And I find it interesting that the only people you have called town are benmage and two people you play with at another site. Those I wouldn't consider town reads you're paying for. For two people as town you would be expected to read as town would look extra suspicious to them if you didn't town read them, so your meta reasoning doesn't really hold up.

[Cerulean]

I don't know what to make of that. I can understand saying a game is pissing you off, and the first post was fine. The second infuriating post rang a bit odd, I know that konowa doesn't really post a whole lot in games from thurs. through tues. anyway, but for them both to be missing. Where is rofl and why can't he post?

[Cerulean]

Empire here, reporting back for duty. Had to deal with some serious IRL problems this past week. Will be catching up here now, if there's anything you want to point me to specifically let me know now.

[Cerulean]

#640 - I don't know if anyone's brought this up yet, but if you've been following this game up to page 20, why would you have freaked over seeing red in your role PM? A lot of the early game was discussing the flavor and some setup stuff, there's no way you could have missed that...hell, there's a sample role PM in the first page.

Did you read your slot before you replaced in?

[Cerulean]

Also, Zar, you look like you've done a lot of work backstage, but have been somewhat missing on thread, and not really interacting much. Is there a reason for that?

Based on what Tammy's told me about Zar's meta, wouldn't that actually be a towntell for him? I know Zar far prefers being scum and that he considers playing as town "a cesspool" so wouldn't him being somewhat distant here point more to him being town than scum?

[Cerulean]

Dan leans scum, yeah

Why? What's the difference between Dan-town and Dan-scum and how is he playing more towards the latter here? (Would help if you pointed me to some games on your other site since I don't think Dan has a completed scum game on MS.)

(Shadoweh, you can help here too.)

[Cerulean]

#688 is a really awful post. Most of it just regurgitating what other people have already said and the rest is just hedging nonsense.

[Cerulean]

What part is nonsense?

For example, the petapan/SafetyDance stuff. Nowhere in your ISO do you go into what your concerns with SD are, so that whole "petapan is scummy for [insert Benmage's reasons here] but so is SD for [undisclosed reasons]" just reads like you're using it as an excuse to push one wagon but shift to the other if the opportunity arises.

[Cerulean]

Bleh

UNVOTE:

We have four days to deadline.

People whose votes suck:

Absta

Camn's town. She's not getting lynched. Your points on her are weak and lame. Pick a new target. Who else is your scum read? Also, to answer your question in Post 725, that's called a finger of suspicion and was used to denote that McStab is our second strongest scum read.

BabySpice

Shadoweh's town. She's not getting lynched. Do something better with your vote. Who are your scum reads? What did you learn from your pet first wagon theory? Are you playing this game?


I *think* our vote will be going on Zdenek, but still haven't had too much time to talk to Empire. He said last night he didn't like Zdenek's contribution, but that was made clear today, and we had a scum read on McStab and Pless made a good case on him. He said that he'd be willing to vote Zdenek if not Jason, but didn't say he wanted to move. I figured he'd move the vote today when he posted if he wanted it moved, but he didn't so now I'm However, I think that Jason looked a bit more townish in the conversation with Zdenek, and it looked to me like Zdenek was kinda bullying Jason into not voting him. I left him a couple notes about this but he didn't respond so I don't know if he feels the same way.

Anyway I'm unvoting Jason because I don't feel comfortable with our vote there anymore. Hopefully I'll get to talk to Empire more soon and he can give me his updated thoughts on Jason. If I don't get a solid opinion or agreement from Empire soon, I'll just vote. Most likely on Zdenek unless someone makes a kick ass case against someone else or zdenek starts doing the town chacha.

[Cerulean]

Zdenek to answer your Post 767 I don't have a problem with Jason's reaction to you at all. Just because you've called someone town it doesn't mean that you can't question them when you see something that makes you wonder something. His response to yu was completely reasonable, and I'm still nursing my Jason scum read. I actually thought your reaction to him was worse than his to you.

Question about your role. Can you only confirm yourself once? Because Jason is right that you could easily have a scum buddy confirm you. You could also just as easily go damn I sent my confirmation to the guy who just died. I'd like some flavor please. I'm also a bit eh about how you claimed. In GvE when you were gaining votes, you didn't ask if people wanted you to claim, you rather spontaneously claimed. That natural reaction to seeing the wagon on you was one if the things that helped me realize I was wrong about you. I'm not feeling that natural reaction here.

But yeah flavor please.

Dan that goes for you too.

And as pless pointed out, neighborizer and friendly neighbor are two different roles. American revolution and leprechaun mafia used both roles in the same game. And while friendly neighbor is a town confirmable role, neighborizer is not and is just as easily a town role as a scum role.

Can you give more flavor z?

[Cerulean]

nvm. I had always thought it neighborized as well as confirming yourself as town

]

It does sometimes.

[Cerulean]

Okay, since z can target someone each night, what do you guys think of giving him like a list of three names to choose from to confirm himself to?

For instance if we just say, confirm to Ben, that will just give the killers added incentive to kill Ben, but if he has to choose from like three people then it will be a little more up in the air.

Thoughts?

[Cerulean]

Dan - what do you think of bt's gut scum read of you?

[Cerulean]

American revolution had a town masonizer and a town neighborizer one shot.

But leprechaun mafia had a friendly neighbor and a scum neighborizer one shot.

Both are likely here.

[Cerulean]

Two trackers, a beloved princess, and a 1 shot double doctor other than neighbors. Scum team had two goons, a tracker and a double voter.

I don't know how that stacks up, I'm not that great at balance.

[Cerulean]

Actually the way Dan claimed, thinking he was counterclaiming, seems more townish. And I believe the 3-shot neighborizer bit, just still holding onto some of my suspicions of the previous slot and his replacement in posts I guess.

Shadoweh - Since you're good at reading Dan, what do you think of how he handled the claim today?

[Cerulean]

As far as Z's claim, I think I've talked myself into just believing it. It seems a really unwise role to fake claim anyway because at most it will buy him a couple days. So, I'm not worrying about it right now; it will sort itself out in the coming days.

Still think that Dan's reaction read townish; I'll wait to see Shadoweh's take on it too.

I know that Empire's strongest scum read is on Jason, and he's going to look through some of his meta tomorrow. I did look through the Dresden game linked and his play is rather different from here. We both have a town read on Sottyrulez, Empire just thinks they're completely wrong about Jason. I'm not really sure what to think right now, but I just can't get to Jason!town. Yes, I know he's probably not an option today.

One thing we definitely don't like about TGAH is rofl's absence, but think that Konowa's posting has been all right and more like his town self. Empire has a stronger townish feel there than I do but I've mentioned that before. I'd really like to know why TGAH hasn't given a read on deasvail though. In the game we all just finished playing, rofl read dv correctly as scum really early and Konowa was the main reason why we lynched dv at the end. He also said that he felt like he had a grasp of dv's meta now. So why haven't they given a read on him here? If you have a good grasp of someone's meta, and you just correctly read them, isn't that the type of person you give a read for? And I've never known rofl not to be open about a scum or town read when he has them.

And on that note, we're somewhat concerned about dv, and he's someone we want to keep an eye on.

Also don't like Absta.

We need to figure out where to move our vote now that our second and third scum reads have claimed and aren't getting lynched.

[Cerulean]

Prod received. Tammy typically doesn't post late weekends and I've been dealing with a lot of serious IRL issues lately so I haven't had the chance to fully dig into the recent events. I remember thinking Zdenek's and Dan's claims were townish when I was trying to keep up here on my phone but will have to reread.

[Cerulean]

I'm getting ready for work but I'll check back in before deadline to hammer if necessary. Konowa said he would make a post, so I'll wait a little longer to see if that comes.

Pless - I think it's pretty easy to mix those two up. In leprechaun mafia, I went on this whole set up speculation about two neighborizers until it was pointed out to me the difference. Now I'm pretty much an idiot so messing up roles or misunderstanding the set up is par for the course, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as they're different clearly.

[Cerulean]

Okay, I'm an idiot, never mind. I thought today was the 6th. Going to work and not hammering.

[Cerulean]

Pless - I think it's pretty easy to mix those two up.

Definitely not saying people can't mix them up given only the names; as I said earlier, I suspect Dan might be town just because I think he did exactly that (and therefore decided he was really counter-claiming).

But it's pretty ridiculous that people are still mixing them up

now

, despite multiple people explaining the difference, posting links to the wiki and so on.

~ Pless

Oh I thought you were talking about Dan's initial reaction. Shutting up now.

[Cerulean]

Dont sweat absta.
He was rookie scum who got crushed by me and was frustrated by it.

and that's why they killed Shadoweh

*twitch twitch*

*twitch twitch twitch*

[Cerulean]

Empire and I agree that they probably didn't know who tgah was, and that he most likely knew who they were. We were trying to mke sense of the modified role cop and wonder if it's possible that they only knew the identity of a couple cops but not the others. Does this make sense?

I agree with the Cdb scum read and was talking with empire about that last night, he's also worried about deasvail. I need to look back at absta, but I agree with camn that the interaction with petapan looks bad. Other than thinking that the cc looked somewhat townish, both petas and action dans is pretty suspicious.

Tgah's push on Jason probably means he's town. Pless and camn both look townier after the absta flip, but I already had town reads on them anyway.

I'll look at other stuff later. This head is out of town visiting family for my sisters birthday so I'll be mostly v/la until Monday and will post when I have some time here and there.

[Cerulean]

Other head checking in, really stoked about the flips and I feel like we have a lot to work with to wrap this game up fast. Tammy's already mentioned some of what I was thinking so I'd like to just echo that and get down to business. I'm fully caught up with the thread now and I'm going to delve more into partnership interaction stuff in the coming days.

Something else that I think we really need to pay attention to: the Shadoweh N1 kill. I know a lot of people dismiss NK analysis as WIFOM but I think the scum NK trail is something that always needs to get looked at, especially when there's an unorthodox scum kill pick (which I believe is the case here - while I read Shadoweh as town, she wasn't universally considered as such and some people actually voiced suspicion of her even long after her initial wagon - also I expected either Benmage, our slot, or even Zdenek to be gone). I want to comb through her ISO as well to see who she suspected to gauge who might have considered her to be a threat or if there's anything telling there overall.

[Cerulean]

*gets nearly lynched one day*

*claims and manner of claim saves him from said lynch*

*doenst feel the Ned to actually prove role*

Here have a wagon!

VOTE: action dan

[Cerulean]

*doenst feel the Ned to actually prove role*

Unless you don't actually think he's a nighborizer, which would be a pretty stupid thing to claim if you weren't one, I don't see what this has to do with anything.

It doesn't matter, this is mafia and when someone is a top scum read of mine and basically is saved from a lynch by his claim, and it's provable to an extent, he's going to verify it the next day.

Lots of things are stupid to claim if you aren't one, it sure as hell doesn't stop people from claiming them.

[Cerulean]

Your role is useless to the town.
It is a smokscreen.

You are trying to use it to make you valuable, but it doesn't.
I don't even care who you meighborized... because it doesn't help us catch scum.

There are values to having neighborhoods and for it's members to be undisclosed.

I neighborized Deasveil as he can confirm.

Okay good, now why did you choose deasvail? You haven't given any reads except the town reads when you replaced in, and the tgah scum read. Who are your two top scum reads?

[Cerulean]

I want to throw up.

I just read through your iOS and I want to throw up too.

[Cerulean]

Dan, why did you neighborize DV? Seems weird given that you had/have no stance on him.

[Cerulean]

[redacted]
But.. tell me more, Dan. What other advantages may there be?
How will they 'scumhunt more effectively' in private?

there isn't much more than that.

I find myself scumhunting better in hydra's where I have somebody to bounce ideas off of.

If this was your natural inclination...to have someone to bounce ideas off of then wouldn't you neighborize someone you had a strong town read on and trusted? Say shadoweh? Bt? Benmage? Not someone you'd stated no read on and thought was forgettable and hoped would talk more.

[Cerulean]

I didn't go that way because I wanted to confirm my role and I didn't want to take the chance of somebody dying on me. If I had gone that way I'd have choosen Shadoweh since we talk on IRC all the time.

pedit: I wasn't focused on DV at time and didn't really think of anything to ask them.

If you wanted to confirm your role why did you start out the day saying you essentially weren't going to confirm your role.

Why would you think shadoweh might die? She was pretty much a non entity in this game so far and was one of the last people I expected to die. (well maybe not last but she was pretty far down the list)

[Cerulean]

I never said that I wasn't going to confirm it. I said I didn't feel the need to reveal who it was I neighborized. It was perferable to keep it disclosed unless people were twats about it (which is exactly what happened)

I was hoping you'd die frankly.

Because she was town? And had good votes and good posts. I wasn't going to take the risk.

Why were you hoping I would die?

[Cerulean]

I want to throw up.

I just read through your iOS and I want to throw up too.

why? like how can you even say something like that.

Part of it is returning that response in kind. And part of it is that your posts make me feel all twitchy. Let's take our first interaction for instance. I thought your first post was scummy and you replaced into a slot I was supicious of. I give an interpretation of your first post, and rather than just answer for yourself, you decide to try to discredit my ability to read people. The "you don't understand people" line might make sense if we had experienced conflicts in games but we haven't, and we just finished playing in a game together where my reads were pretty good on the whole, so it reads as a means of deflection and discrediting, which is scummy.

Likewise, your Post 703 in which you say that You're talking to me like this because I'm leaning town otherwise you'd be coming after me reads really weird.

I read through your Ido in the game we just played together (mafia stuck) and I had a strong town read on you immediately and I'm not getting any of that sense here.

Pedit: what the literal fuck? First of all when did I ever say I was better than shadoweh, saying she was a basic nonentity in the game is not an insult. She was barely posting.

And I thought I was prone to theatrics. Damns.

[Cerulean]

Erm

Just so you know you've been the one throwing insults and talking down to people since you came into this game. So, of anyone is an egoist here Dan, it's you.

I don't know what the personal thing is that you're referring to. If you're trying to white knight shadoweh from the grave you need to get over yourself. I really enjoy playing with shadoweh and didn't once insult her. If you want to fight for her honor or whatever you can stand on that battleground alone. She wasnt posting, therefore was basically a nonentity.

If its me personally you're talking about and had some issue playing in a game with me I will remind you that you replaced into this game with full knowledge that I was playing, so it was very easy for you to avoid paying in a game with me for whatever reason and because my reads are bad. Whatever though.

[Cerulean]

See this doesn't make any sense to me Dan. You were following along so you knew you were replacing into a slot that had some suspicion on it. You knew what to expect no matter your alignment. If you were town, you would know you'd have to deal with some crap but your towniness would become obvious through your effort. You chose to take the belittling tactic, which does not read town to me from you at all. But I don't even know why I'm still talking. You're being rather ridiculous, and though I've really enjoyed playing with you in the past, so long as you're going to have this shitty attitude I say good riddance.

[Cerulean]

Vote: Jason

...you know what I'm going to say, right?

[Cerulean]

What are you going to say?

Well, you spent the entire D1 adamantly defending Jason as town so uhh what the fuck

[Cerulean]

I'm so confused right now. Just when I come around tao being wrong on Jason, the person who most tried to convince me I was wrong is like nope never mind.

I feel like its a joke. Is it a joke?

There

[Cerulean]

Stupid phone post I don't. Know-how that submitted

[Cerulean]

There are only a couple ways I could see tgah going after their master that hard: if they didn't know the identity of all the police or if they were actually trying to draw the nightkill because they were recruitable. Iirc in academy the traitor was recruitable. There is the wifom thing I guess.

Pless I wouldn't even call that an argument and this replace out is even stupider than the ny160 one.

[Cerulean]

*in adwd. The traitor was recruitable. Autocorrect

[Cerulean]

Pless/Zar, I'm pretty much 100% with you guys re: CDB. Tammy and I talked about CDB last night and we both feel pretty strongly that he's a good shot at hitting an absta partner. Aside from everything you guys pointed out, I'd like to emphasize that I found it really weird that absta never responds to CDB's early vote and that CDB never followed up on that in any significant way - it came across as early game distancing to me.

I looked over DV again because I got bad vibes from him last night but there are a couple of things that seem to point against him being partnered up with absta. For example, I think DV would have taken a more firm stance on absta in #706 if they were on a team given his approach in Zar's game and (I believe) La La Land. Also, the appeal to absta in #912 seems weird if directed at a partner, right?

I also don't think absta was bussing SafetyDance in the first half of the day. From what I've seen in his other scum games, he usually tosses some suspicion on his partners but never commits a vote to them or pushes them in any meaningful way.

Also, if TGAH did indeed know who all of their partners were, I'd say Jason and Nostredeus should be exempted from the lynch, too. Roflcopter doesn't bus from memory and I don't think Konowa does either.

Aside from these, I'm still reading Benmage and Librarian as town via their own play.

Dudes I DO NOT want to lynch:

Camn, Plessiezarus, Jason, Nostredeus, SafetyDance, Benmage, Librarian, Zdenek, DV (uneasy about this one though)

[Cerulean]

Also this is a proven incorrect statement about replacing out, and I find it hard to believe zdenek actually thinks this.

He's also confirmed town unless he's scum with Benmage.

P-Edit: ninja'd by Librarian >_>

[Cerulean]

This list matches up fairly well with our current town-reads (not in this order, obviously, but then this list isn't meant to be ordered, right?).

We'd add you and sottyrulez as town-reads (despite sotty's odd reversal re:Jason today), and wouldn't have TML (who's definitely still null for us) or DV (who

was

null, but has dropped down to weak-scum recently), but otherwise that's it. Can you explain what we're missing in TML's play?

No, it's not meant to be ordered. I'd like to see some more from Zach, especially regarding Jason. And I'm not at all confident in DV.

My townread on Librarian is largely meta based. Compare his town play here and here with his scum play here and I think the difference is pretty big. He's a lot more aggressive, cocky, and tunnely as scum and I'm not seeing that here at all.

[Cerulean]

Prod dodge, posting later.

[Cerulean]

cdb - Why is DV one of your most confident town reads and what feels town about Kuribo?

Also, why are you basically following Sotty's lead on Jason, yet don't have any read on Sotty?

[Cerulean]

Kuribo - what's your read on Cdb?

Kise - same question.

Not a fan at all of nostredeus' vote on Sotty. Didn't like kuribo's vote on Sotty either but he removed it so that's all good, but nostredeus' vote was awful on all kinds of levels. Nost. I'd like you to explain what you think Sotty!scum has to gain by spending day one hard defending Jason only to turn around and push him today. How was their interaction forced?

I'll make a real post tomorrow or Wednesday as will other head but now *sleep*

[Cerulean]

Pless - the read on sad will probably come tomorrow or Thursday. I had him leaning town for a few minor things; he's at least not screaming scum at me the way he was in the game we recently finished. Empire wants me to read through the scum game he posted and go over my thought with him. We both have really busy Tuesday's so that probably won't happen until tomorrow.

I'll respond to other things in a bit.

[Cerulean]

@Sotty I don't feel like searching the thread for other people's reasons right now seeing as I have like 15 pages to read without it but I think my own town read started at this post. IIRC there was a wagon on him and his response to it was reasonable+.

Yes, and in mafia stuck sanjay's reasonable response to his wagon was a town tell too, right?

[Cerulean]

Isn't invoking someone else's meta as an argument ridiculous? It'd be kinda like saying "kuribo claimed bulletproof in Catch-22 Mafia, therefore all bulletproof are scum"

There's an inherent difference between a role claim and a "rational" response to a wagon. Sounding vaguely reasonable is something really easy for competent scum to fake whereas your BP scenario seems more like a one-off.

About Nostredeus, I thought he was initially BS'ing a reason to hop on the Sotty wagon when in really he was just sheeping you in an opportunistic fashion but his later posts seem far more detailed than I would expect from a player with his experience level. I'd link the posts here but phone posting sucks.

Pless, the SAD read will have to come later after Tammy and I look through his recent scum game. First impression after skimming it and the Westeros game is that his scum game has improved pretty dramatically.

[Cerulean]

Isn't invoking someone else's meta as an argument ridiculous? It'd be kinda like saying "kuribo claimed bulletproof in Catch-22 Mafia, therefore all bulletproof are scum"

Nope! I'm pointing to a specific instance in a game we both were in when scum acted reasonable about their wagon and some of the town thought he had to be town because of it.

I'm not even invoking meta, I'm invoking the "claiming someone is town because they were reasonable when a few votes were on them is silly" argument.

Seeing as how bt was in that game, I was surprised to see him using that argument without any thought for the fact that some people do act reasonable as scum with a wagon.

I'm not even claiming nost is scum here, just that that reasoning for a town read is lame. I haven't really decided what I think of nost right now.

I'll answer your other question in a bit.

[Cerulean]

Nostredeus reminds me of brizingre1. I've been trying to figure out who he sounded like.

[Cerulean]

Oh and other head answered the nostr. Question that kuribo asked.

[Cerulean]

I'm really not seeing how ActionDan wanting to keep the neighbour secret is scummy; he knew full well we could force him to tell us who was in the neighbourhood to verify his claim at any point. I'll happily wait to see what the replacement/you guys has/have to say but frankly I'm seeing AD as town here. Interested in Camn's case (associative tell with absta) but again I'll see what the replacement has to say about it.

It was scummy because he claimed under suspicion and there were some people who were doubting that both roles would be in this game, and that both roles would be town. He knew that he would have to claim as evidenced by his statement in [post=1068][/quote] therefore his "I don't feel the need to claim" was needless posturing. This is not dans first game, he knew we would ask, and since there is no guarantee that a neighbor is town, who he chose to neighborize and why is good information that can help in determining his alignment. He knows this, so his entire attitude makes no sense at all.

[Cerulean]

finding petapan scummy is like shooting fish in a barrel and you should be ashamed of yourself for clinging to that

As someone who has played with petapan for something like two years now, you could not be farther from the truth about him.

[Cerulean]

Zdenek, barring

Jason

Benmage as scum is 100% mod confirmed town

FTFY

Tammy and I are still talking about things re: kuribo and his predecessors, the main thing that makes me think he might be town is the nature of Dan's claim (e.g., the way he came out thinking he was cc'ing Zdenek which seemed pretty genuine and unlikely to come from scum). I want to try reading kuribo's meta and that MS scum game Dan alluded to.

@Benmage:

I included SafetyDance in my earlier list because I recall absta-scum not being a big busser...I remember that he tended to just throw minor suspicion on his buddies but never voting them or following up on them in any significant fashion.

[Cerulean]

Tammy and I are still talking about things re: kuribo and his predecessors, the main thing that makes me think he might be town is the nature of Dan's claim (e.g., the way he came out thinking he was cc'ing Zdenek which seemed pretty genuine and unlikely to come from scum).

I'm not seeing it. It's genuine but it could come from both town and scum so I don't see what's pointing you to the latter.

General question: I see a good chunk of people townreading Sottyhydra. Why?

You say it's genuine, so you believe he was genuinely thinking he was counter claiming zdenek? Why would Dan!scum genuinely think he was counter claiming someone he knew to be town?

Empire can tell you more about the town read of the hydra overall as he recently played with them in Sherlock mafia, but we both are town reading zach especially. We both just finished playing a game with zach!scum and he was pretty lurky and not very engaged in the game. His play is quite different here, and unless Jason and them are scum together, which I don't believe, their play surrounding Jason makes no sense at all. Jason would have been a really easy lynch to go along with yesterday and would have been preferable considering they know each other well. There push and disappointment in Jason today when thinking they might be wrong reads genuine, and it's not something I see coming from scum, especially considering most people took tgah's push on Jason to mean he was town and it garnered them some negative attention. It demonstrates a level of caring about the game that suggests town.

[Cerulean]

Hey kise - have you gotten past post 22 in your read through yet?

[Cerulean]

Thanks for the links, kuribo. I should have enough time to go through them all this week.

General question: I see a good chunk of people townreading Sottyhydra. Why?

Following up on what my other head said, Zach is one of the players that suffers from Regfan-syndrome (like me and Tammy, too, really) in that he far prefers being town and hates being scum. The easiest way to read him, therefore, is to see how active and engaged he is in the game. In Sherlock Mafia, he did the overwhelming majority of the posting and just generally seemed like he gave a shit about the game. Compare that with his scum game in Castle Zar where he was really lurky and his reads were generally very lazy and came off as super disinterested. I think his play in this game is a lot more like his town game, especially looking at his back and forth with Jason - I'm in agreement with my other head that voting Jason today after previously defending him hard as a huge meta townread is something that would draw him a lot of unwanted attention as scum and the entire exchange with Jason reads like he's genuinely faltering in his read and is trying to see what's up.

[Cerulean]

BT's 1350

Um, with Kuribo being an actual wagon and all, I don't know how much of it is based on ActionDan neighbourizing me (if any at all), but one of the reasons he gave in the QT when I asked him the same question (before you guys did) was that he thought I was a PR because he felt like I was hanging back. I also think the way he said that he thought I was town in the QT after he decided to replace out is something that scum probably wouldn't think to do. Like, how does it benefit them. Kuribo maybe seems kind of town from his posts, but I'm not so sure on that one.

Reads will be properly updated this weekend, but at the moment:

Kuribo- Weak town. Some of his play I think could come from scum (I don't like him thinking that Pless's post gives information on the scumteam), but I have reasons to think the slot is town.

See this doesn't make sense, then again not a whole lot of dans behavior made sense. You say he said he neighborized you because he thought you were a pr, which would imply he already had a town read on you but in Post 1122 you say he said he had come to have a town read on you based on things said in the neighborhood. Now unfortunately Dan decided to engage in needless posturing and then act like mr mcsissypants when it garnered him a negative reaction that he knew beforehand it would get him, so those of us who were trying to get a better read on the slot are left confused overall for why he chose to neighborize you.

You say you have reasons to think he's town, well if you actually do it would be nice for you to share them. Empire and I have spent far too much of the limited time we have to play discussing that slot as a whole. And kuribo's focus on his 1v1and set up spec instead of actually scumhunting isn't helping clear up that slot.

[Cerulean]

And kuribo's focus on his 1v1

and set up spec

instead of actually scumhunting isn't helping clear up that slot.

hi, try reading the last 5 pages or so instead of pushing the 1v1 thing


thanks in advance

[Cerulean]

Oh and pless - later tonight when I get home I'll talk about Arthur. Empires pretty much deferring to me on the Arthur read. But I don't agree with kuribo at all on his reasoning for giving him such a strong town read. Arthur contemplates the setup of games before they even start, and I definitely wouldn't put it past him to say what he said regarding the setup whether or not it was accurate even as scum. (I do find it a little amusing that with all his bluster on the people better have a damn good reason to find me town, he's not batting an eye at kuribo's town read >_>)

[Cerulean]

the "set up spec" is part of the scumhunting, captain literacy

Sorry wrong captain. I'm captain Leela:





Your setup spec just like your 1v1 read as a distraction, and I don't think either are very productive nor do they help me with my read on your slot.

[Cerulean]

I miss petapan

[Cerulean]

don't think petas all that easy to lynch in the first place. No matter how hard peta is to read, he'd at least be producing content and bring productive regardless of his alignment instead of reveling in distractions.

Like this one. You antagonizing me isn't helping my read on you, and how I deal with insults from an Internet stranger can't be helping your read on me.

If you do happen to be town and are trying to get a read on me, ask me something productive because this is a waste of time. Also, my mommy just told me I'm good enough to read dr Seuss now so I'm gonna go practice reading so I can become literate.

[Cerulean]

deas....you're weirding me out.

sorry

[Cerulean]

Oh and pless - later tonight when I get home I'll talk about Arthur.

Still waiting . Less wasting time arguing with kuribo, please, and more time doing this

Sorry. I decided it would be more fun to go out drinking last night

and continue drinking when I got home

Will do this after I get some work done and this truck stops using my head for a parking space.

[Cerulean]

Okay so I'm thought dumping. My apologies for the size of what's to come, but this is an amalgamation of the conversations empire and I have had over the past week concerning the slots we're most conflicted/concerned about. So this will basically be a proper hydra post, I guess. Actually, I'm going to break it up, so sorry for the long-winded spam actually. Pless - I will get to arthur tonight promise, but I'm going to talk about him last. Partly because I'm just putting it off, and partly because there are a couple things I want to think about and look at some more.

baby spice/kise

. Baby spice pretty much did nothing this game. Both of us just finished a game with baby spice!scum and while she feels a little different here I don't know if it's a change of circumstances. In castle zar she basically just white knighted town day one then took up the suspicion of the lynched town to run with the next day. But she seemed like she tried a little harder there? But she does tings that don't really make sense. So in Post 96 she declares that she thinks vifam is scum but leaves her rvs vote on Jason. None of her contribution was great, and much of it seems to be commenting on things just to comment. Then she had the weird first wagon pet theory thin ghat she never follows up on or explains. I remember when she was scum wanting to examine the first wagon as a pet theory thing too, but never followed up on it. This is probably something she does though regardless of alignment though so meh. One thing I don't have a problem with is the vifam meta thing. She actually does explain that she mixed up his town v scum meta. Which is easy enough to derp about.

But then enters kise. Kise just really hasn't done much. I had to go back and check out the recent Harry potter game because I remembered him as being more engaged in the game even though he wasn't real high activity. Like he was very thoughtful in his analysis, even though I think I thought he was scum a couple times there. His early posts are *okay* but there's too much sideline commenting and not much engagement. And too much promising content and not much delivery.

Empires ready to move our vote here to help out with a kise lynch, and I'm not going to do anything to stop a kise lynch at the moment. The only thing that is keeping me from moving it right now is a few tiny glimmers of genuineness in a couple of baby's and kises posts. (genuine isn't exactly the right word, but I see sparks of things that don't feel fake.). However, my reservation on this is that since there was a traitor, it's quite possible the scum team, thinking they were somewhat underpowered might have been honestly scum hunting, especially if they thought there was an SK out there.

And fwiw - I agree with whoever said its probably 4 + traitor. Balance isn't my strong suit, but in zach's ny146, there were 18 people to start, a 4 person scum team plus an sk. So this seems on par with that.

[Cerulean]

Oh and we both like cdb's contribution yesterday/today and don't feel as comfortable with that lynch as we did at the days start. And we both thought that Cdb/absta's interaction seems partnerish too. We don't like that he basically had to be prodded into delivering content, but I have seen this happen to town before that basically is coasting/is disengaged but gets whipped into action when it looks like they're about to be lynched for it. Okay scum can do this too, but I like his recent contribution. And his I'm not nervous, I'm just British in Post 1388 made me laugh. Probably one of my biggest mafia weaknesses is that if you make me laugh I'm predisposed to think you're town. Yes, I'm serious.

[Cerulean]

petapan/actiondan/kuribo

this slot has probably caused us the most trouble all game. We were conflicted/suspicious of petapan while he was here, and contrary to kuribo's claim, and while he might have a trollish type playstyle peta is a fine player who always plays to win. He's pretty difficult to read though, and one in particular that struck us rather suspiciously was that peta seemed to care a little too much how he was coming across in his interaction with benmage when benmage thought he was scum. The other stuff that was brought up was pretty much oar for the course with peta. As pless said when linking to abarat, peta is often a bit lost on day one. If I remember correctly, regfan said in that game that he tends to feel a bit lost in larges on day one, so that fit with what I know and have experienced with peta. It did strike me as odd that he didn't have a read of our slot though. As empire said before, they've played together for a couple of years and they've hydrad together, and while I wouldn't expect peta to feel comfortable reading me accurately on day one, I did think he'd be able to read empire. Empires easier to read than I am, and I'm fairly readable. I don't think that empire thought much of this because I've brought it up a couple of times and I don't remember him agreeing, so maybe I'm just Bleh. Anyway, I wonder if interactions like Post 297 and Post 298 are likely partner interactions. But empire thinks that Post 451 is quite unlikely to come from PETA talking to a partner.

Enter Dan - as pretty much everyone and their brother has commented on his replace in post was pretty bad. His oh gosh red gave me a heart attack read pretty fake

even though I had the same reaction and complained to faraday about it before realizing I was an idiot

. Anyway, beyond that which could have very easily been an attempt at a fake town tell, the reads were off as was his resulting interaction. My meta king other head had me read micro 31 because it had town bt, shadoweh, and Dan together. And the fact that that game has town Dan suspecting town shadoweh for a good portion of the game makes his superiority complex of how dare you read shadoweh wrong at the very start of the game really disingenuous. His whole demeanor was just really off. Im not an expert in dans meta, but I was able to read him really easily as town in the last game we played in, and even when my scum partner fake day poisoned him when he was a cop in heterosexual revolution he remained more composed than how he played here. (I am worried that I'm a little biased here though because his interaction with me made no sense and I feel like its coloring my view)

I still can't make a whole lot of sense of his neighborizing choice or for the way he needlessly postured around claiming when he knew the town wasn't going to stand for him keeping it a secret. He knows that who he chooses to neighborize and why is a way for town to get a better read on him so for him to act the way he did makes no sense. But honestly it makes no sense from either alignment.

Now I did take his counter claiming zdenek as a sort of town tell. Now the thought is that as scum, he would know zdenek was town, so why would he think he would be counter claiming town? (part of this falls apart for two reasons though. One is that if they were underpowered and they thought there was an sk, he might have thought he'd caught the sk in a lie. Two is that bt is right that his first "claim" came in Post 830 in which he claims He's a type of neighborizer. This is actually important. Him claiming he's *a type* of neighborizer indicates that he knows there are different kinds. So 8 minutes later, he *counterclaims* zdenek in Post 835. I took the counterclaim as genuine because why would you think that? But iirc Ben was arguing that it seemed forced and now that I look back and see that it wasn't him counter claiming right away, which would indicate town, but him posting once about a type and then counter claiming, it doesn't read as real as it did at first.

Here's part of my problem though. He neighborized deasvail, which wasn't one of the three on his list he offered to zdenek in Post 866. He didn't say he was trying to use the neighborhood for scumhunting purposes but talked about how he liked hydras but he neighborized deas vail be ause he thought he might be a hiding pr. Like this isn't a town reason for me and Dan replacing out in a snit fit doesn't help. I could just as easily see a scum neighborizer neighboring someone they thought was a or to both out that and deas vail I think would be a good choice to neighborize as scum for manipulation purposes. But I'm never going to get actual answers for this so Bleh.

As far as kuribo goes, I'm not that impressed. He's certainly posted a lot, but it's a bunch of meh. As said before his reasoning for strong town reading Arthur is meh. He gave a town read on benmage then challenged him to a 1v1 which was stupid before letting it go. Then there was a bunch of setup spec. I don't care if he thought that was part of his scum hunting he didn't do anything with it but speculate about the setup. Some of his later stuff has been somewhat all right, but it's by far the least bit of the contribution, and I also feel like he's been changing his play tactics to see what will work. Also I tend to find his playstyle type somewhat scummy. He seems like the type that just throws out shit to see what will stick, and while I can see that early day one to get the game moving once the game is moving it feels really disingenuous to me. So his constant, you thought PETA was scummy cause he's easy to lynch mantra thing is not only lame but it's something I can't see that he actually believes if he's played with PETA. And if I can't believe that you believe what you're saying, I have a hard time town reading you.

Anyway, there are some townie type moments in his later iso. When he stopped trying to bait me yesterday and he started actually commenting on the game and the players, I thought he might be town. But unfortunately the majority of his game is bluster and that doesn't help me with the read on the slot.

though any time someone is being more theatric/difficult than me it makes me happy in a weird sort of way

Overall, empire thinks that kuribo is a suboptimal lynch. I kinda agree. BUT as it stands right now, I almost just want this slot lynched and gone so I can stop agonizing over it. I'm almost of the mind that I don't care if it's a mislynch because I'm tired of worrying about it and because we have a little cushion. BUT the part of me that is still bitter over losing a town sweep in happy tree friends and thinks me is possible here is hesitant. Empire said he's basically Sheeping my thoughts right now, so I guess that means I get to keep my vote where I want it, and I don't feel comfortable moving it just yet. Maybe maybe if kuribo is town he will start behaving in ways that makes me give up my reservations on the slot but for now our vote stays here.

[Cerulean]

Oh wow I'm only half done...imagine if I'd made that one wall

[Cerulean]

Fuck mcstab Post 531 I know absta's meta pretty well and this is town absta....

Zdenek I'm having a paranoia attack please to be confirming yourself to another strong town read tonight. Thank you.

[Cerulean]

vifam/bt

this is actually where I'm probably ready to stick my vote if it's not on kuribo or kise. It's actually probably where it should be right now, but I'm it done with kuribo and I still have some hope for kise.

Vifam didn't do much at all. And it is true that he posts in one liners and spams games as his playstyle, and empire showed me a quote where he basically said that he just likes to fuck around in games and occasionally lynch mafia, so it's kind of hard to get a grasp on him. I thought he was scum for the first two days in mafia stuck, but he was town. However, in between his random spam he was actually contributing to the game. Here not so much. Most of the stuff he talked about was rather off topic/flavor for the game. His actual content was minimal and he kind of felt like he was straining to do what he did.

As far bt meh. I realize Dan gave him obv-town points to him but eh. Here's my major problem with bt and it's kind of silly, but I feel like I have to wipe an inch of oil off my computer screen after every single one of his posts. I've gone back and read through mafia stuck that we finished playing together not too long ago, and I didn't get that feel from him at all. He seemed real in a way he doesn't feel here.

Also, ome of empire and my first thought was that the shadoweh kill made sense for a bt/absta team (also for Cdb but I've addressedhim).

His replace in post *seems* fine but some of it looks like an attempt to get that stream of conscious town style, like it's a self conscious attempt to show an evolution of reads. So heres my big thing. There too much this says this...that says that. For instance Post 556 which you knew what does look incriminating, but it's the type of post town makes all the time without thinking. Scum often try to be a bit more careful than being obviously contradictory in one post. It's kind of like his Post 485 where he's pointing out that camn is voting with pless while at the same time thinking pless might be scum. Scum LOVE using this tell when in reality it means absolutley nothing but it looks good, right? Town don't pay great attention all the time to who is voting whom and will vote sometimes without regard to who else is voting their scum read. Never mind the fact that scum bus sometimes or a myriad of other things cause the votes, so to use this is lame, but looks good because people buy into it and it doesn't cost you anything because you can point to thread evidence for whatever. But in reality it's shallow and bs.

Oh on Post 1195 concerning "ye" old scum read. Did you know that it's not really ye? The "y" actually transaliterates to "th"? So it's really just the olde scum read? Um okay this means nothing to the game I'm just a loser?

But really you never explain why you have a scum read on Dan? Your insistence on my answering the Dan question is weirding me out a little. Like you seem to convinced it was fake, which makes me wonder if you guys are partners. Because how else are you convinced it's a fake or at least trying to prove it was?

Also, really think he shadoweh death points to you. I can't make at reasonable sense for why she might have died otherwise. She was a nonentity and there were others who suspected absta, but she explicitly suggested suspicion in you as well. I also wonder if Dan had a hand in her death because wy the hell would he expect for her to die night one? But meh.

Also, what is bothering me is the way you're trying to discredit your attackers today. Like your defenses don't sound to me like an innocent. Like take Cdb for instance, he's been defending himself a lot, but he keeps talking about his own actions and explaining himself. But you seem o be throwing suspicion on your questioners and that makes me uneasy. Maybe part of this is that sottyrulez is one of our strongest town reads and your reactions to them look so bad that I can't really see it coming from an innocent.

All in all, part of me really wants to vote bt right now but I'm still stuck agonizing over the damn kuribo slot.

[Cerulean]

Oh I forgot to mention in regards to Dan telling me that my reads were bad. I'm Of two minds with this. He might have thought that I guess, but he's not been that rude to me in the games we've played together before, but my problem is that anyone who's played with me knows that I have a tendency to doubt myself and so there has been scum from time to time that has tried to make me doubt myself even more than I normally do. It's a good tactic I suppose.

[Cerulean]

Not a fan at all of nostredeus' vote on Sotty. Didn't like kuribo's vote on Sotty either but he removed it so that's all good, but nostredeus' vote was awful on all kinds of levels. Nost. I'd like you to explain what you think Sotty!scum has to gain by spending day one hard defending Jason only to turn around and push him today. How was their interaction forced?

I dunno what to tell you here but frankly scotty comes in with

"Vote jason"

and demands a response to that vote, jason responds with

"Not too sure what to make of Sottys vote TBH it is kinda weird they want me to respond to their vote before explaining it. "

to which scotty responds with

"You're not at all interested in what changed our opinion of you?"

then pushes hard with

"Please don't make me wait an entire weekend worth of time for a response this time."

as if Jason hadn't clearly pointed out he'd be V/LA over the weekend in question. Jason responds with

"I replied... I'm not wasting time by chasing after you asking why oh why did you change your mind... if you have a solid reason, you would have posted it by now."

which given that scotty hadn't posted a reason seems reasonable to me, scotty then does two weird things:

1) "So basically you care as much about what changed our position on you as you seemingly have about the game since about the halfway point of day 1?"

Which is clearly not what Jason is saying, maybe we're all speaking different languages but it looks to me like Jason is asking multiple times for the reasoning behind the vote.

2) "See, your early play hit what we know of your town meta to a T, but your play since has basically been coasting, and you've actually spent a large part of the game completely disinterested in our reads, which is another trait that is unlike town Jason and more like scum Jason."

Which strikes me as backwards; Scotty voted BEFORE Jason "seemed"(I'm using quotes given 1) disinterested in scotty's read, this can't be a reason for the vote and if it is it should at least be presented with an example from before the vote.


If Scotty didn't just force that then I honestly don't know what your definition of forced is but for me that's a pretty damn good example of it. I'm happy to say I think at least one of them are scum, I've already given reasons why I don't think it's Jason and now I've given reasons why I think it's scotty; my vote stands.

Like, I'm really not sure why you gave a rendition of the Sotty v Jason story or the way you told it. I really really want to Think you're town but you make it hard sometimes. Sotty has pretty much debunked a lot of your nonsense, but there's a few things that I think bear mention...

I told you your vote was awful for a reason, and that reason is you're voting one of my stronger town reads. I can pretty much guarantee you that nothing you will say will shake my read of them, but my comment and hope to get something from you helps with my read of you, and right now my thought is "dear gods, don't let him near lylo".

I don't see how Sotty did anything weird. Jason declares v/la every weekend, but is actually around far more than his posts let on that he is. I know this, and I don't even pretend to know Jason as well as Sotty has explicitly mentioned in thread that they do. So your how dare you criticize him for not responding in a timely manner when he's claimed v/la reads as a weird white knighting/just not paying attention to the thread in general.

My first thought to "maybe we're all speaking different languages" was yes, we're speaking english and I don't know what you're speaking. It was abundantly clear that Sotty was commenting on Jason's level of caring about the game. As they said later, Jason's coasting and seemingly to caring that they changed their position on him. This makes perfect sense to me. As an analogy, it's been mentioned that the pless hydra and I are friends. If they were to suddenly 180 their read on me and I didn't react at all, they would probably have a big problem with that. As they would have certain expectations for how town me would react, to that sort of thing.

And your second point is wtf as well. Sotty says that Jason's not interested in their reads period. So, again well take the pless hydra for reference. Do you see them asking for my read on arhtur? When people know each other well and are friends they often bounce ideas off each other in the thread. Now pless might be hoping to get a better read on me through my read on arhtur, or he could be hoping to get a better read on Arthur from my input. Regardless, bouncing ideas off people you play with and know is common and when it seems like that person isn't interested in that it can read as strange.

So it wasn't backwards as you say. Sotty didn't vote Jason for being disinterested in their vote on Jason, but on their reads in general.

Like I kinda think you're town due to tgah's push on you and because of some of your earlier stuff, also I think bt is white knighting you in a weird sort of way, but I need you to start thinking more clearly.

[Cerulean]

And now for what I've been putting off...Arthur.

I'm going to be up front...this is going to be the most waffly of anything anyone has ever seen from me. Like, it's going to be bad. Sorry. I just don't feel confident at all.

Okay heres the basics. He would 100% rp the way he did at the beginning of the game as either alignment. Complete null tell. He would give his idea of the scum team whether or not it was accurate. Comets null tell. As I said before, Arthur contemplate the setup. Hed have most likely done that before the game even started, so wether or not he was scumand it confirmed what he though, he'd still say it. I also would not in a million years put it past him actually giving the true makeup of the scum team out early on. To think he wouldn't do this and that he's not scum because of it is exceedingly silly and I'm actually disappointed in kuribo for claiming he couldn't be scum otherwise after he admitted to playing with Arthur before.

Here's my problem, I feel pretty adept at reading Arthur. There probably hasn't been a month that has gone by in the past year that arhtur and I have not played together in some fashion. We've hydrad together, we've been scum partners, and modded each other. And in nearly every other game, I have given detailed reasons why he's town when a good number of people has thought he was scum. Hell in mafia stuck, several people thought that I was doing damage control when I finally started paying attention to the game and started posting.

So, pless is arhtur screaming scum at me? No. In the last game in westeros, I realized he was scum pretty quickly, and that was basically due to his trolling nature and little game content. This is really similar to the open lottery game that he posted. Deas vail wondered if arhtur was a try hard scum, and quite frankly it weirded me out a little when arhtur made those effort walls because it reminded me of his sudden content after I threw my mini tantrum at him in the westeros game for not doing anything other than shitposting.

If he was just shitposting it would probably be easier to read him, but I doubt even as scum he'd do that in a game with us after being called out for it correctly not too long ago.

Empire says that he's deferring to me for Arthur but that he thinks that everything arhtur has done so far could be easily faked. And I agree mostly.

I ont know what I think about the fact that he stopped his rp. I'm ambivalent.

His attitude sucks. I don't know if his ego is bolstered by his winning a recent scum game, nearly winning the game in westeros, or general maturing n the game. But the nature of his comments dont read town to me. For instance the "whoever is town reading me had better have a good reason" don't read town to me at all. Is weird posturing for Arthur.

His tone seems off? Does that make sense? He's blustering in a weird way and he never follows up. The most he says is that shadoweh should know better, but from memory shadoweh has only seen him as scum in heterosexual revolution so I'm not sure why she should know what he's capable of.

I would kind of feel so much better if Jason were scum here, because I could feel better about Arthur. However, they did go after each other in a weird way. Arthur started after him for going after him in his first rvs post, which makes no sense to me. Arhtur has always said that rvs posts count just like everything else, so for him to cry foul for Jason thinking his rvs posts suck makes no sense (now I know Jason is not averse to double bussing for tactical purposes, but I'm not Getting that feel here? Also, pless is right, he's not going after his targets as strongly as he usually does. When he was scum recently he didn't push his "suspects" all that much and he was quite self conscious in how others perceived his view on those suspects. When he's town he doesn't give a fick...he'll in mafia stuck he kept pushing vifam as if he were confirmed evil long after most people, including me had argued that he was most likely innocent.

Like, I'd probably feel better about him if he was in a single minded pursuit against Jason no matter the circumstantial evidence, you know? In fact, his "hold up Jason might be scum post" made me think he might be town. And he was right in the game he ousted, lottery addicts, he tends to AtE like hell as scum and really doesn't as town as much.

There are a couple things that make me think he's town though...the town read he gave to babyspice (unless she's scum), The day one push against Jason, The general lack of shitposting, His doling out town reads like he does in Post 397, I also kinda think one of us would be dead if Arthur was scum and had a say in who was killed.

(I don't know how he didn't have a scum read on absta though per Post 479 I thought he was legitimately scummy, but sometimes people are just wrong?)

Although if bt is scum as I think, there are some possible examples of arhtur chain swing. Actually it's weird that they don't give real reads on each other. I don't remember what arhtur thought of bt in mafia stuck but I remember that bt did not trust us much and Arthur is acting quite a bit different here than he was in that game...it seems odd to me that bt really hasn't mentioned him.

Oh wait Arthur does sayye thinks Dan is scum...don't know if he keeps it up though.

Here's the thing. I have the slightest of slight town reads on arhtur that I don't feel confident in at all. His light tunneling of Jason is townish, but he *feels* wrong.

Idk...I don't want him near lylo at all though.

Idk even more this game is crushing me. My scum reads keep making me think they're town and I'm just gonna go play some video games for distraction because tying to read Arthur right now is driving me insane.

[Cerulean]

Bleh, I don't see the slip. There's not just one way to interpret tht first statement. You can have more scum reads than what the remaining scum you think you have left.

I also don't know why one would argue that they old be trying to make us think there's less than there are to mark us think there's an sk when they've been adamant about there not being an sk, but a vig.

This is just a quick post to say not to expect much from this head this week. I have a few things on top of work going on and an interview to prepare for. I'll be able to keep up with the game, just not all that well, probably. Empire said he'll be posting today so I expect he'll add any thing I might have missed and follow up on my posts from Friday.

[Cerulean]

Sure bt. Also, I don't mean to be a pain, but can you direct me to what posts you want repsonses for? I'm running out the door and I typically don't do anything with mafia on Sundays but I'll try to when I get back tonight, and it would be easier if i know what im looking for. Empire knows my thought on everything to so he might be able to answer your questions as well.

[Cerulean]

(Also, can you quote some specific examples of BT being "oily"? I don't really know what you mean by that.)

Tammy could probably point to specific examples here for what she means by "oily", there are a couple of things that struck me as off about that slot. First off, the slot's interactions with absta feel weird - absta suspects Vifam in #288 for a completely throwaway reason but never follows up on...whatever that is at all. #604 also only seems to exist as a way for him to make superficial conversation with BT. What bugs me more than anything looking over his ISO again is #1350 - here, he comes in from a long absence in the thread to zero in on kuribo (who was being wagoned at the time) and the selection of quotes with analysis attached feels like he's trying to justify his bandwagon vote so it doesn't come off as opportunistic. There are some other things I don't like either, namely, his initial catchups are structured in such a way that seem like he's commenting on stuff in order to make certain people look as bad as possible - but then again, I know other people who do that same sort of thing (off the top of my head, BBmolla did this in Sherlock) so meh. That said, I haven't really delved into his meta as much as I would have liked (he doesn't have a completed scum game here + I can't access shrinemaiden's games for some weird reason).

[Cerulean]

Well, it's this, but I'm not even sure what I want from you now, seeing as it was an awkward sort of post. I guess I want to reason with a townread that guts me as scum? I think more words on my part will do better than this, but considering comparisons to mafiastuck at all, do you still think I'm that different and do you think the difference makes me scum?

I'll just divide up the response into numbers, Tammy can feel free to add to this if she wants:

1) Saying Shadoweh was killed for "being right" doesn't make much sense to me...I know she's a very competent player, but at the same time, I looked over her ISO again and it seems like she suspected a lot of people (or at least impliedly so looking at the way she directed certain things at certain people), so what specifically was she right about? The reason I think the kill points to you specifically is because of your ties to her from offsite (even though she says she can't read you) and the fact that she did seem to suspect you here.

2) Dan's claim seemed townish to me because I don't really see the scum motivation in purporting to "counterclaim" someone on D1 of a large game, even with the slight delay. I think that mentality's far more likely to come from town thinking he's caught scum via his claim, especially if you think the scum team is undermanned since they're going to be thinking about the long game so sticking himself out there as a counterclaim doesn't make sense from a scum PoV that has longevity as a priority.

3) See my post before re: your meta.

[Cerulean]

I forgot to do this earlier <_<

Unvote, vote: Kise

Got the green light from the other head for this.

[Cerulean]

Deadline's approaching, time to start compromising onto Kise, people.

[Cerulean]

Hey kuribo, can I interest you in a Kise lynch? BT posturing around it by saying "well, I guess I could lynch him but I'm super fkin interested in an information lynch on D2 of a 70 page large theme with two scum flips" suggests they might be partners!

[Cerulean]

Deadline's approaching, time to start compromising onto Kise, people.

I'm assuming that you guys can prob point me to a wall explaining in detail your thoughts, but as a quick note, would you be willing to compromise on kuribo?

Considering we moved off of kuribo after thinking it was a suboptimal lynch, doubt it. We would, however, compromise onto bt but kise is more likely to happen today.

Read our walls.

*sigh*

[Cerulean]

Hey Arthur! Why are you really only addressing Jason's scum read on you when he isn't even voting you and not addressing pless or dv's suspicion of you hen they are actually calling or your lynch?

[Cerulean]

True? But it's not like I had ~*~a scumread~*~ on kise, it was only a minor gut feeling, so I don't think it's unreasonable that it didn't seem to phase me that much.

And I noticed the "lynch me" post. I think those sort of posts are null (though very anti-town) (i'm treating this kise lynch mostly as lynching the anti-town dude as things stand)

PEdit: It's because it was a minor feeling (again) that far from strong enough for me to say "yeah, there's a decent chance this is gonna flip scum". I'm against it because it isn't a good lynch.

Our vote on Kise is far from being because we thinks he's the anti-town dude. There are several people I could stick my vote on if I wanted to go for that. Take a look at this: This is Kise as town in a game we recently played together. Notice the difference? And I'm not even the biggest meta person out there, but when someone has played in a game with me and they've demonstrated an ability to be very thoughtful about people's alignments and replaces into another game and basically gives shoddy fluff, there's a problem. And it doesn't have anything to do with anti-town, it's that he hasn't provided a reason to think he's town and I know he can. He's lurking here and not providing content at all, therefore there's a really good chance he's scum.

As far as your "no information" bs...that's exactly what it is. I get irked when I hear people use that argument past day one. I can see where day one you might not want to lynch someone who hasn't provided content, but day 2 when we have 70 pages of information and two scum flips? Hell no. I'm going to lynch who I think has a good chance of being scum.

[Cerulean]

Eh, yeah, pretty sure you could name "that white guy" I was the only one to mention.


*sigh*

~Duplicate post by Tammy account deleted and quote tags removed

[Cerulean]

Running out the door, but noticed kise is at l-1, so not interested in a hammer right this minute.

UNVOTE:

I'll be back in a bit to actually read some things, but I have a couple thoughts and don't want the day ending yet.

[Cerulean]

VOTE: Kise

I do want to read some stuff today. This is vote #7.

What happened to really needing an information lynch today?

[Cerulean]

There is the possibility that there is no town aligned doctor. That's probably worth mentioning.

Empire and I were talking about this last night. Flavor-wise levy makes sense for being a doc. And I can't think of a role that flavor-wise makes sense for a scum doc, which since there's a vig or possible 3rd party, wouldnt be unexpected. It could also be a safe claim, and his lack of actually giving any content is still worrying.

[Cerulean]

Why would jason be 3rd party?

I'm thinking half of my reads from d1 were off. Shadoweh kill almost spites me. Gut says something is up with Cerulean but they're playing so good.

So, I'm still suspicious of kise, considering his lack of actual content, but once he claimed doc I remembered this post and it strikes me as somewhat genuine. As far as I can remember every single time I've been healed and haven't been the target of a night kill, the doc who protected me has suspected me or got paranoid of me the next day. I'm not real sure what to make of this.

[Cerulean]

There is the possibility that there is no town aligned doctor. That's probably worth mentioning.

Empire and I were talking about this last night. Flavor-wise levy makes sense for being a doc. And I can't think of a role that flavor-wise makes sense for a scum doc, which since there's a vig or possible 3rd party, wouldnt be unexpected. It could also be a safe claim, and his lack of actually giving any content is still worrying.

Out guessing the mod.... Yes scum doc with scumsafeclaim for plausible real doc.. or real doc... How many times do we want to go over it?

Kuribo if you have the support. Otherwise I'm not moving. Claims don't equate to saving someone. Especially a claim that can't really be proven. Cerulean was a standard doc choice... something I'd expect a doc to do, but easily something I'd expect a scum doc to claim. So zzzzz.

My pause on his claim isn't that he claimed doc and said he protected us. We were a good doc choice, and still are, but he started suspecting us today. And that is consistent with every time I've been doc protected and not targeted.

[Cerulean]

Oh I just remembered I hated nost's last post in which he said all his scum reads were on the kise wagon. Empire and I commented on the wagon last night to each other that the wagon actually consisted of our town reads. I realize not everyone has the same reads on mafia but to be so disparate makes me feel twitchy.

[Cerulean]

Kuribo's last will and testament is the best post I've seen in the history of mafia...just saying.

Kise - We've talked about you and not to you, why aren't you daring us to confront you?

[Cerulean]

empire says:

Town - [kuribo] - [kise] - Arthur - BT - Scum.

Give me a few and i'll put my thoughts together, but they're not far off. I know we both think BT is scum. I think Arthur is townier than Empire does. And I'm feeling mindfucked on kuribo and kise.

[Cerulean]

Arthur, what is the town motivation for being all indignant that a player playing poorly as scum led to his death?

(Empire here catching up, this thread blew up yesterday and I'm still trudging through all the pages.)

[Cerulean]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p4735537]
But Cerulean -- you sort of have to vote soon? I get that you guys are conflicted, and that you don't agree on how scummy SAD is

and that it's fun to equivocate since you can then claim to be right no matter what happens

, but there's this thing called a deadline we have to work with (or a 'deadlien', if you go by the mod's preferred spelling ).

~ Pless

This is my fault, I fell asleep in the middle of an aim discussion about where we were going to put our vote last night.

Anyway, we'll hammer sad soon since he's at l-1, but I want to catch up with what I've briefly skimmed since Tuesday and give any updated thoughts if I have them. I have a couple things to do before that though.

[Cerulean]

Actually that point about Cdb looking like he was coaching absta probably means they aren't partnered. I'm quite certain scum have daytalk, so that coaching would have been done in the qt most likely. Not in the thread where it could be used against the other if one flips.

[Cerulean]

Bt is looking townier lately, but after he kept talking about how suspicious Sotty was, I'm a bit surprised he didn't mention it at all.

I think all the people I spent so much time reading through are probably town: bt, kuribo, and Cdb and of course sad. I'm still wary of kise, so well see, but I still do think there's something to him suspecting us after saying he protected us.

I need to reread through some things, but that won't happen for a couple days. Empire said he would take a closer look at tml after the two cases came out against him and read through his meta again today, I'm leaving that read up to him.

[Cerulean]

Going to check into this tomorrow, have a somewhat busy day today.

Waiting on you, Nostredeus.

[Cerulean]

Okay, with that I believe kise's claim even more now.

IT'S OKAY KISE.

And yes that does look like a crumb on baby spices part. Gods replacements mess with my head. When z posted that I was trying to figure how legally obliged was a crumb for Ronnie mo, it took empire spelling it out for me to finally click. I'm not dumb I swear I just haven't really slept in over a week.

Anyway empire and I had a Poe discussion last night and our final list is quite similar to pless's with the addition of a couple names we have some paranoia about, and minus ourselves because we'll we don't suspect ourselves :p.

Empire is going to take another look through tml's meta and work on that and we'll be hashing out the rest of our list this week. We both have a busy schedule so it probably won't be until the end of the week or so before that's completely done.

[Cerulean]

Submitting bar exam conversion applications this week so you'll be hearing even less from me unfortunately.

Tammy and I have been talking and we've narrowed it down to {Benmage, Jason, Librarian, BT, Nostredeus}.

I went over Benmage's ISO and meta again, he still seems really town despite our paranoia so I don't really want to lynch him.

Plessiezarus' #2188 is a really convincing case -- Tammy and I went over TML's meta again and she thinks it doesn't tell her anything one way or the other (P.S.: You guys really need to consider Jason as well, especially given the sottyrulez kill).

[Cerulean]

Still think Kuribo is scum... would anyone be willing to go for Kuribo lynch?

No.

[Cerulean]

Can't say I've always loved Cerulean enough to care about that. Tammy's not putting out.

Sh...you're not supposed to out that I'm a tease!

------------

I really don't know what to think of tml. I thought the absta push but not really doing anything about it as the day went on was suspicious, but was going to argue that his PETA case looked pretty townish, then read pless's case again and it up against backing off once kuribo replaced in does look suspicious. Meh, he's the day's lynch. I'm not putting him at l-1 now though.

Empire and I want to finish reading through the rest of our suspect list and discussing it, so I'd like to not lynch before we get a chance to do that.

[Cerulean]

I mean, literally, we caught him and then he stopped posting. We have all seen this before. Stringing this out for eight days longer with a replacement coming in and reading 90 pages only to be lynched anyway and people talking themselves into stupid shit in the interim because that's what happens when you spend too much time on something IS A BAD, UNFUN IDEA.

You seem tense. Would you like a massage?

[Cerulean]

Prod dodging for now, exhausted and kind of tipsy. Pless, to give a really simplified answer to your question, two things: 1) we both looked at the meta again, my conclusion re: TML's meta is largely the same though the interactions-based case is making me really waffly, and 2) Tammy has a much better grasp of this game than I do as my reads have been kind of shitty and nearly everyone looks like town in some form or another so I don't have a clue anymore (I'm learning that I generally lose my focus in very large games).

(Equinox, if it makes you feel better, I don't really thirst for your blood!)

[Cerulean]

Just a quick post. I think I have something to respond to, but I'll get to that later. I feel like crap and my eyes are burning too much to really read anything right now.

Equinox - Paranoia aside pless is a strong town read. Your slot has been a strong town read of ours as well, but pless made a decent case that negates some of what I thought was town. Unfortunately he site flaked before addressing the points on him.

Okay nap time. Get to this later.

[Cerulean]

BT's 559 - I'm not sure that scum-BT calls a vote on a buddy wasted. He'd be more likely to think that the vote was legit.

Don't see this as any kind of town tell. Why wouldn't scum-BT want to discredit votes on his partners wagon? Especially a tracker?

Finally, there's Cerulean. Their behavior at the start of Day 2 bothers me. At the end of Day 1, they said that they found Action Dan townie for how he claimed. At the start of Day 2, they were calling Action Dan one of their top suspects. They were also arguing that Action Dan should have been open about who he neihborized because he was saved from a lynch by his claim. Now, Action Dan was under some pressure at the time, but he wasn't at L-1 when he claimed, and it was far from clear that he would have been run up to claim otherwise because there were a lot of people who were suspicious of TGAH. So this line of questioning of Action Dan by Cerulean reads as disingenuous.

I did think that ActionDan's manner of claiming seemed townish. But that doesn't completely erase all of my suspicion of that slot. And I also said that a scum neighborizer was entirely possible in this situation. Dan and everyone knows that who a neighborizer chooses and why can help with furthering a read on someone. And, as far as I'm concerned he was saved by his claim/manner of claiming. The momentum was there to swing against Dan, and it was stopped by the way he went about things, so for him to posture about not claiming who he neighborized made no sense to me and made it seem like he had something to hide. But I wrote a long wall about my thoughts on that slot and I'm not going to repeat myself.

.S.: You guys really need to consider Jason as well, especially given the sottyrulez kill).

Why do you think this?

Jason was a strong scum read for us day one, and he really hasn't done anything to read as town. The only thing that clears him is his gambit and the push that TGAH gave to him. But we're a bit concerned that TGAH was trying to get recruited. And Empire thinks that he would be more likely to kill sotty since they were starting to get concerned about him.

Can you also explain your scum read on Nost, and why you had Benmage on the list of people you've narrowed it down to when he's been a town read of yours all game?

The Nost thing is something we're mulling over. I can't follow his thought process or where he gets his ideas from at all, which is always a concern for me. The push on Sotty was ridiculous as well. Our one drawback is we're not sure if he would kill his biggest suspect. They weren't going to get lynched, but meh. Just don't have any positive feelings from him overall.

Are you really asking why we're reassessing our reads? We looked at everyone again at the start of day and only pulled out people who we felt we could clear based on role claims, reaction to claims, interactions with absta, and neighborhood interactions. Benmage doesn't fit any of those. But empire said in Post 2205 that we went over his iso and meta again and we've discussed it and still have a strong town read there.

[Cerulean]

Are you really asking why we're reassessing our reads?

Not why, but how.

I don't think I understand the question if you're still asking how as I think I answered the how in my last post.

[Cerulean]

Don't see this as any kind of town tell. Why wouldn't scum-BT want to discredit votes on his partners wagon? Especially a tracker?

It seems like a high risk, low reward move for scum at that moment. TML wasn't voting for absta then, and wasn't being pushed.

What do you think of Benmage's unwillingness to vote for Absta?

Eh that remark seems rather minor. Can't get to townreading him based on that.

I wasn't incredulous; the question just surprised me is all.

I don't really think much of it, but I just looked and can't find where he was unwilling to vote Absta. I'm pretty sick and drugged up right now though so I could have easily missed it; if you point me to where you're talking about I'll look at it tomorrow. His statement that he has a hard time reading inexperience is consistent with what I know of him though.

[Cerulean]

Quick post before I head to class.

Difficult to see Jason as Police though, given TGAH's big push on him. (That's assuming that TGAH knew who the Police were but that none of the Police knew that TGAH was a Traitor until he flipped.)

Starting to think this might be too big of an assumption. It's entirely possible that TGAH knew some of their partners but not others and I think I remember Tammy telling me there was a flavor justification for this (e.g., Bubbles apparently only works closely with a couple of Police). For another example, consider that Gay Mafia II had a recruitable traitor role that only knew one of the other four mafia. We don't know what the "modified rolecop" portion of their role means either.

[Cerulean]

I didn't think about an eavesdropped neighborhood. There should be some interesting things to look at in the coming days if that's the case.

Oh also since its being thought up now as a serious possibility; ie traitors only knowing some of the police. If shardeen is in fact a traitor in this game, it might be interesting to look back at who dismissed absta suspicions as he flipped Lester freehman and he was the one who helped her so she could spy on Orlando's and they end up dating. (but then people flip traitor here, so it might not be as obvious.)

Camn - to answer your question: Nostredeus without a doubt, closely followed by Jason.

Z-I haven't forgotten I said I'd look back and answer your benmage question. I will do that today.

[Cerulean]

Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop.

You two are officially in time out and can not look at or speak to each other for one hour.

[Cerulean]

Vote: BT

[Cerulean]

It would really own if people would nut up and vote BT (which is, coincidentally, the name of a strip club right across the street from my school, I think this is a sign???).

This head (Empire) will be V/LA until the weekend due to a really awful exam I have on Thursday.

[Cerulean]

P.S.: The scum team is probably in {BT, Jason, Nostredeus, Benmage}

I honestly don't think Equinox is scum based off now likely ancient meta but I'll go over those when I'm done with this exam.

[Cerulean]

Actually, tempted to take Benmage out of that lynch pool since he looks really town and I've had a strong townread on him all game based off his own individual play but I'm a paranoid baby and some of his interactions with absta were kinda bad from memory.

I should probably reread that too now that I think about it.

[Cerulean]

And I refuse to assume BT is town

You refuse to read my posts, too.

What gives you the impression he's refusing to read your posts? This looks like you trying to discredit someone who has a scum read on you, which has been a favored tactic of yours and which is actually strengthening my scum read on you.

Don't see this as any kind of town tell. Why wouldn't scum-BT want to discredit votes on his partners wagon? Especially a tracker?

Why

would

the scumteam want to discredit votes on an even-night tracker, especially considering it was Death Fodder absta? Your logic works backwards here.

Exhibit A. No one knew that absta was death fodder, until he actually was death fodder. If it is possible that the scum team is small, then early bussing is unlikely. And your interactions in relation to absta look scummy as hell. For instance, you've made this case against TML (and for the record your case came after CDB's so you didn't get the wagon going as you later claim). What I find interesting is that you subtly throw suspicion on Absta but you don't do anything about it at all. In fact, you attack TML for daring to vote absta. Why was a vote on scum!absta a wasted vote?

My logic works fine, scum defend their buddies all the time especially if one's a pr. Your attempt to discredit my thoughts on that is scummy.

Jason was a strong scum read for us day one, and he really hasn't done anything to read as town. The only thing that clears him is his gambit and the push that TGAH gave to him.

Hi there, I happen to be one of those people that made clear that there are absta-Jason connections that clear Jason, multiple times. I know you're being lazy with your scumread on me but this is ridiculous.

So? Do you want a cookie? Just because YOU think the absta quote clears Jason doesn't mean it actually does. Jason isn't behaving like town, has been coasting and continuing his mantra of lynch kuribo, which incidentally I find it really interesting that you attacked DV for going after his scum read SAD yesterday and still having you as a scum read because he was wrong yesterday in Post 2478 (which by the way has to be the oiliest post in the whole thread so congrats on that!) BUT you haven't said one thing about the fact that Jason pushed for SAD yesterday too, was wrong, and is not reassessing today. But, I guess it's more important to just discredit your attackers than it is to actually apply a similar expectation of reassessing reads to everyone especially when you're not the one in danger.

Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop stop.

You two are officially in time out and can not look at or speak to each other for one hour.

Note that I do think you're town -- the above is yet another quote to add to the collection, but I do think you're taking up kuribo's method of not paying attention to scumreads.

Uh-oh...are you telling me your town read of us is in danger too like you did DV? I might cry. (Empire already is, but we can keep that between us)

What was your purpose in even commenting on this? It looks like a throwaway comment to try to discredit an attacker some more and is especially so since it comes after we voted for you. That quote had not nyet nothing to do with me paying attention to a scum read. Quite the contrary, I wanted two of my townreads to stop bickering, because I think they're town and extended bickering gives scum a place to hide.

Camn - to answer your question: Nostredeus without a doubt, closely followed by Jason.

Why not DV here? Not that the other two aren't useless, but what's the thought process here?

I've made it clear that I can't follow Nostredeus' thought process, and if he's town I don't want him anywhere near LyLo. Quite frankly I can't tell if he's scum or really bad town and will lose no tears if he goes. Jason is someone I think is scummy, and don't want anywhere near LyLo either if he's town. I don't trust Jason to actually catch up on this thread nor do I trust him to get past his annoyance with a player to judge who scum really is; he's coasting and hasn't demonstrated an interest in actually contributing to this game. I mean all we have to do is see that the most he's done today is suggest a Kuribo lynch again.

Why not DV? Why DV is the better question. And you know you were full of bs in your response to Kuribo in Post 2439. You have stated a leaning town read on DV in the very post kuribo was responding too . And just so you know DV is not useless. He might waffle a bit and be unsure of his reads (but so am I a lot) but he's not useless. I've seen games where he has called most of the scum team day one, he just lacks the certainty to usually push it through. You trying to discredit him is really scummy. Besides, we're reading him as town. I think he's town and Empire's pretty decent at reading him and says he's town too, so that's a no go on DV.

Another question for DV when / if he replies to them:

This is scummy. This is trying to make it look like DV isn't answering questions that have been asked of him. I don't remember this happening, so it looks like mudslinging.

Other than the fact TGAH attacked Nost (which I'd been assuming meant Nost was probably not Police), I think Nost looks pretty awful.

Could you elaborate on this? CDB's "I don't see anything fake" is exactly the stance I took regarding Nost on D2 and it hasn't changed.

Interesting that now your position is wavering on Nost, but that's the subject of another post.

[Cerulean]

And what do you, Cerulean and DV have in common? A QT, but besides that, none of you give me the impression that the current lynch possibility dangling above my slot is justified. During D2, I fully accepted the fact that I played sub-optimally and I compensated in every way I could, including volunteering to be lynched just so people like you would move on. Yet right now I'm still struggling to figure out what's making me a possible fallback option over others (

hello

DV,

Nost)

besides magical rainbow orgasms in that QT.

Could you be any more scummy?

You said it yourself -- my play had a part in making you doubt your read. Obviously this is referring to my end-of-D2 play which plenty of people thought was town. Why? Because people are telling under pressure. It's why you want to pressure people in the first place. You got to witness one of the most pathetic sagas in my mafia career, because I decided to literally scramble and make the most out of my slot before I was done for. What more do you need?

Oh yep you can. Everyone thought I was town when I acted like town when I was about to get lynched! How can you not see I was so town? Anyone halfway competent at this game knows how to "act like town" when about to be lynched, and acting as if that could not have come from scum doing what he had to do is *headdesk* worthy. The very fact that you can describe why people wavered on you at the end of yesterday demonstrates that you understand very well what to do to get people not to vote you and make them think you're town.

In other news, Plessiez's #2443 is excellent. Deadline isn't far away and I'm gonna be busy for the next few days but I do want to reanalyze Nost and compare with TML/Equinox now. They're probably not scum together, at any rate.

And you can be even scummier. I get reassessing reads. But let's look at how many times you defend Nost. In fact, yesterday, you basically were calling Sotty scum for their push on Nost. And now, now, that you see the equinox wagon falling apart and your wagon rising again, suddenly it's time to re-read Nost because you haven't really read him . Hmm... you admitted to Zdenek that you don't really pay attention to your buddies posts would you say you're treating Nost like a buddy? You've either been white-knighting him in a really weird way or protecting your partner, and your shift to now needing to read him because Pless made an excellent case looks scummy and opportunistic as fuck. Pless isn't as easy to attack as Sotty, huh?

[Cerulean]

I'm really sorry I haven't posted guys, I'm writing the final section of my dissertation and it's being a little shit.

Sympathy for Nostredeus.

I'M ALSO WRITING THE FINAL SECTION OF MY DISSERTATION AND IT'S DRIVING ME INSANE.

Yes, that deserved all caps.

[Cerulean]

I honestly don't think Equinox is scum based off now likely ancient meta but I'll go over those when I'm done with this exam.

Hmm. Zar's looked at some Equinox meta and thinks it supports that slot being scum . So we'd be interested to see this. (Preferably before the day ends, if you're going to be back from V/LA by then?)
s

I spent this morning looking through tml's meta again, and again don't think I could learn anything. Empires right as scum he does tend to be aggressive in an angryish way, but he does also bus early and his last posts in this thread are pretty bad. I looked through equinoxes too. I know that empire did some meta research on her when they played in micro 53(?), so I read through that and through the scum games she linked there. She just looks rather similar as both alignments to me. I left him a message asking him to let me know what about her meta seemed more town. I do know told me he was reading her as really town though. Hopefully he'll be able to fill me in on that quickly. He's way better at assessing meta then I am when it's not direct experience and I've only briefly played with equinox and tml.

What about her play seems to fit her scum meta more?

I did bring up to empire her jumping on bt last night after saying she thought he seemed town when she replaced in. I thought that was suspicious. It empire thought was more evidence that she was town.

[Cerulean]

It's Wednesday, isn't it?

jasonT1981, pick a wagon and sit on it. kuribo is not scum, and kuribo is not getting lynched. Be lazy if you want, but you know more about the game state than I do and yet you're managing to do less.

Argh, this is tough my vote on Kuribo would be wasted. Right now, as it stands Mini Lib was higher on the scum scale than BT was (I had BT town) I still feel a bit towards BT-Town

Nost wagon, I don't see going anywhere.

vote: Equenox

So you're paying attention to the game enough to catch when someone addresses you and this is the paltry shit you offer?

[Cerulean]

I mean no offense, but from what I remember of your reads over the course of the game, the accuracy of your scumhunting in this game isn't stellar, the both of you. Explain to me why you both read DV as town.

I'm in the middle of something, so can just respond real quick but,

No you might not mean to offend, but you do mean to discredit. And this is where I can't break away from a scum read on you, and if you are on the off chance town, you should stop doing things like this because you've been doing this all game. You've set out to discredit and undermine anyone who has suspected you and that's scummy. You've done it to me, kuribo, dv, Sotty yesterday...and your statement that you were paranoid of Sotty yesterday reads pretty much bs today especially since you say you haven't reread Nostredeus. If you hadn't properly read him then why were you attacking Sotty for attacking nost yesterday?

It's almost like you read my response about Dan saying that to me and me thinking it's a good tactic to use against me because I have a tendency to doubt myself and my reads and figured you'd use it against me as well. But, looking back at the people who've flipped so far and my reads on them, I feel pretty good about my reads so far.

[Cerulean]

By the way, lynch priority is Equinox > DV > Nostredeus > {CDB, Kise} > {camn, Jason} > Benmage > {Cerulean, Plessiezarus, kuribo} > Zdenek.

Why do you have Jason listed before benmage or us if you think that absta interaction clears Jason?

[Cerulean]

Quick question to anybody in the neighbourhood

:

are you a cult? if so, please pretend you're not and recruit me soon

why exactly is BT a better lynch than TML/Equinox today? If you think my case on TML is wrong or lacking somewhere, then

why

? (If you think there are good answers to this hidden in one of your back and forth walls with BT, then "pretend" I only skimmed those and summarise them for me again, please.)

I wish we were a cult!

Meh he's not a better lynch probably. The last message empire left was that he wouldn't lose any tears over an equinox lynch. But, he did tell me he'd let me know what he thought about her meta fitting town more than scum when he got back from his exam, but I'm guessing he doesn't feel really confident in that. And part of that is probably there are only so many people we think are in the scum pool unless we're off on a town read somewhere.

Anyway we're fine with an equinox lynch I guess, and I'll hammer sometime soon if people are ready to end the day, but I'd like to wait for equinox to do what she said she wanted to do this afternoon and empire to come back and give the okay for a vote move.