The Wire, Season 1 - Final Credits!

[ChannelDelibird]

Sup.

VOTE: The Mini-Librarian

[ChannelDelibird]

UNVOTE: The Mini-Librarian
VOTE: absta101[/unvote]

[ChannelDelibird]

Ugh. VOTE: absta101

It's been a while.

[ChannelDelibird]

Jason - serious vote on Arthur?

[ChannelDelibird]

Petapan's vote drew my attention to absta's #8, which is more likely to be a scum post than a detached vote for nobody in particular.

[ChannelDelibird]

Petapan's vote drew my attention to absta's #8, which is more likely to be a scum post than a detached vote for nobody in particular.

Really?

Course it is. It can feel braver as scum to make a confrontation (for want of an apt but less serious word) like that of a page-one statement. I certainly felt that way as scum once or twice; consciously or otherwise.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm not sure I follow... you think scum seek confrontation?

Not quite, as I tried and failed to express, and close. My experience is that sometimes scum can feel like they should engage actively with an early part of the conversation, be it escalating a random joke or, in this case, picking out a post and flipping it back at the poster as a jokey reason to vote them off the bat. It's certainly something that I've done as scum before, to varying degrees of being conscious about it.

To be honest, I'm not 100% convinced that I've accurately expressed in writing there what feels like a really simple notion in my head, so apologies if it's still unclear. It's just about a psychological compulsion, in the unpredictable early stages of the game, to "do something town", whatever that means for the player in question.

[ChannelDelibird]

@CBD I think I get what you're suggesting, or trying to explain...from my experience scum can tend to overthink how to "properly" interject themselves into a game. I often find over-the-top 'cutesy' attitudes to come from scum. Is this the case here.... I don't know.

Yeah, this is my point, and what I'm not saying is "this is proof that absta is scum". I'm saying "this reason why absta could be scum is a better reason to vote him than it is to leave a random vote on somebody else".

[ChannelDelibird]

Two objections:

1) Outguessing what roles are likely fakeclaims doesn't end well.

2) Mass name claim isn't fun.

[ChannelDelibird]

UNVOTE: Absta
VOTE: SafetyDance

Too safe.

[ChannelDelibird]

People stating opinions is a good thing. It ties them to those opinions for later.

[ChannelDelibird]

Nost struck me as pretty genuine in that exchange. Come vote SafetyDance instead, McStab.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, McStab's barking up the wrong tree with gusto but looks to be approaching it from a town mindset.

[ChannelDelibird]

McStab:

As I say, Nost struck me as genuinely having thought of something that he thought might help, then immediately (and repeatedly - look how he got ticked off when more than people kept objecting after he'd got the point) realising that he hadn't thought it through properly. I don't think the psychology looks faked there. You clearly do and, being sure about it, you're going all in, now you're finding his partners before you've seen his flip. It's perfectly fine for his top suspect to point out to him that his idea was bad and for him to accept it, while continue to suspect him for other reasons. But because you're convinced you've caught him on something else, you're interpreting it as scummy.

[ChannelDelibird]

Nost - it would be easier to read you if you posted your own responses outside of quote tags, so that we can be sure what's come from you and what's from the person you're quoting. I know, you're bolding, but it's not as clear.

[ChannelDelibird]

DV looks like scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

ChannelDeliBird

: can you expound on 166 please? What suggests McStab has "a town mindset"?

It looks to me like it's coming from a town mindset because I've done the same as town - you see something that you're convinced makes him scum and you start running with it, suddenly you see where his partners are etc. You can tell he's put some effort into checking Nostrodeus out because he specified circumstances for my lynch dependent on his flip. And he went in on it

hard

- "Nostrodeus is a rat, lynch him" pretty early on - which I think is further than scum faking his behaviour would go at that point. I don't see any difference there to the last time when I saw him as town.

[ChannelDelibird]

As far as my posting style goes, it's fair enough if you dislike it, but this how I'm going to play. Brevity is pro-town; Walls of text aren't fun so I try hard not to write them and I don't read them either.

I don't think my vote on SafetyDance for being too safe is hypocritical - him voting for Ser Arthur over the roleplaying thing is a really easy stance to take that requires no actual examination beyond the surface and would let him get lost in a crowd if the wagon built up. I like to think that I am showing some signs of examining beyond the surface and not necessarily following others.

[ChannelDelibird]

Game in which I played with McStabTown (also contains me as scum if you're interested)

[ChannelDelibird]

absta: Try harder, skip the walls, do better.

[ChannelDelibird]

Camn: Defensiveness is not a scumtell, denying things is not a scumtell. There's maybe something in Pless's combativeness but I read the response you mentioned from them and I don't see much there to be worried about.

------

Can't decide what I make of SafetyDance's rebuttal. I don't think it's any harder to read Ser Arthur because of the RP, although I am willing to accept that not everyone will feel this way. "Ser Arthur's RPing makes reading him harder and he should stop" is a fair assertion to make and I can see SafetyDance's strength of belief in this as genuine. The problem I have with his argument is this: Ser Arthur's RPing might -

might

- benefit the scum but, because it's just as likely to be decision based on fanboyish fun rather than strategy, that doesn't mean that him doing said RPing makes him more likely to be scum than town.

So when SafetyDance insists that it's OK for him to hang a completely null vote on Ser Arthur because "we are in the preliminaries of the day" - a time which, as far as I'm concerned, is just as useful if not more than any other for scumhunting - it's an argument that gives him license as scum to get away without saying anything more potentially damning.

------

Vote stands for now but I'm considering DeasVail and will check to see if there are other people who could better use my vote shortly. I'd be very strongly considering a vote on Jason but Sotty and Zach have never given me reason to doubt their reads on him.

[ChannelDelibird]

You not even votin' seriously yet!

Good point. Vote stands.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, in that page McStab pretty strongly deviated from what I would have expected based on our previous game. Still prefer the SAD wagon for now though.

(More when I'm not trying to play mafia on skype at the same time.)

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, in that page McStab pretty strongly deviated from what I would have expected based on our previous game. Still prefer the SAD wagon for now though.

SAD =/= SD. Unless you secretly have a scumread on me

My bad. Sorry bro. Stand easy.

Cerulean - despite being in a game in which he took a lot of heat, I never saw McStabTown take quite that same "I don't give a fuck, haters gonna hate" tone he did last page. Until now I thought he looked fairly consistent.

[ChannelDelibird]

Lynching your suspects' preferred target tells you nearly as much about them as it does the dead guy, Shadoweh, so not convinced by you dismissing it like that.

I think petapan's town.

More this afternoon, just checking in now.

[ChannelDelibird]

But if you

had

to pick one of them as scum, which would you pick?

This is such a weird question to ask. Why did you ask this, Pless?

TGAH's vote on Jason is pretty poor; to be honest I'm completely unconvinced as to why anyone would consider Jason a good vote today. Sotty and Zach have vouched for his towniness, which is NOT a reason to count him out completely but is a great reason to go after other people on Day 1. Indeed, in the situation TGAH seems to suspect, I'd want to vote Sottyrulez instead of Jason. Wouldn't their flip tell you more about a partnership between them than Jason's would?

The more I read Shadoweh's bit about not getting involved with the SD wagon because of the people on it, the less I like it.

DeasVail's 483 goes a way to making me feel better about him as town. The only thing I don't get, DV, is the inconsistency you're pointing out about SD in the two quotes you picked out. Could you explain that to me? Otherwise the arguments above make me pretty happy about where my vote is.

Depending on DeasVail's answer to the above, there's a good chance I'll move my vote to McStab.

[ChannelDelibird]

They definitely have done that, SAD. Reread the last couple of pages.

[ChannelDelibird]

I meant this:

Jason is still town. I have known the guy for 8 years just about, played mafia with him on and off the last three or four years? I forget. But Zach and myself are pretty great when it comes to reading the Jason slot and we both feel Jason Town right now. He does dumb things like tunnel on the wrong people (vifam) all the time as town. There are only two people I am happy in just straight up reading and that's Zach and Jason. So yeah, that's where I'm at with that. If any of you Jason voters want to show me something in his meta to provoe me wrong then go ahead. Right now I'm just not seeing it.

Him attacking "the wrong people" is not even remotely the issue we have with him. It's the fact that he's attacking Arthur and Vifam for their playstyles rather than anything alignment indicative and there's just an overall lack of substance coming from him (#122 still being the most egregious example). A lot of his posts read like they just exist to make him seem like he's contributing when he's really not. Also, just telling us to trust you isn't going to do much when you're not doing much to highlight the difference between his town play and his scum play. What's the difference between the two and how exactly is he playing like his town self? (For what it's worth, Tammy told me she feels like he's playing more like in TM 2012 Closed Normal where they were scum buddies than in Harry Potter. Tammy can probably elaborate on this better when she comes back, though.)

Yeah, your complaints about his play pretty much hit all the markers that indicate he's town. He's notoriously bad with reads and arguments as town. It's actually when he's scum that he will come across more level headed and seem to be making more reasonable arguments. It's precisely because when he's scum he's more interested in trying to fit in vs when he's town and actually interested in finding scum that he tries so hard that he tries to make square pegs fit into circular holes.

[ChannelDelibird]

V/LA until Sunday

- Will try to post once or twice between now and then but going to be a busy time (I'm moving).

[ChannelDelibird]

Reading over the stuff I missed.

[ChannelDelibird]

On the claims:

Zdenek's I don't see any particular reason to disbelieve in and of itself. It's confirmable so let him confirm it.
ActionDan's claim itself I don't have a problem with; what worried me a little was his apparent determination to use his claim to sink someone else's. Maybe it's because I'm coming to this a couple of days late and seeing it disconnected from the flow of emotions but the impression I got was more that he was looking for swift blood rather than considering it very carefully. It is worth giving him at least a night to see what happens with his power, though, and who becomes involved in it.

I don't think I'd vote for Jason today but I'm happy to move onto TGAH, as discussed before.

UNVOTE: SafetyDance
VOTE: TheGreatestAmericanHero

[ChannelDelibird]

On the claims:

Zdenek's I don't see any particular reason to disbelieve in and of itself. It's confirmable so let him confirm it.
ActionDan's claim itself I don't have a problem with; what worried me a little was his apparent determination to use his claim to sink someone else's. Maybe it's because I'm coming to this a couple of days late and seeing it disconnected from the flow of emotions but the impression I got was more that he was looking for swift blood rather than considering it very carefully. It is worth giving him at least a night to see what happens with his power, though, and who becomes involved in it.

If you had almost the same role as someone who claimed, wouldn't you be going for 'swift blood' instead of considering it carefully? That's a really bad reason to make him sound suspicious.

He didn't almost have the same role as someone who claimed, though. When I've been town and thought I might need to counterclaim someone, I've always wanted to be sure I'm not screwing my faction over by outing myself unnecessarily. Any double-checking or reading over at all would have made it clear that they weren't claiming the same role.

[ChannelDelibird]

Prod received - apologies, got distracted by skype mafia during my free time yesterday. I'm working this morning but will catch up afterwards.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm not done deciding where my vote is yet (will be doing so immediately after the posting of this post) but might as well react to the votes on me first.

As far as TGAH's behaviour towards me goes, obviously I'm ignoring that. I can't speak for TGAH or how deliberate it was that those connections you're seeing are. It doesn't make sense for me to respond.

Re: absta, I can understand where you're coming from. I think that if I were asking the question "is there a connection between CDB and absta?" and then looking at our two ISOs, I might come to the same conclusion. I recognise the thought patterns here and my feeling is that Pless is probably town because of that.

HOWEVER. Pointing to the fact that I never followed up on my early absta vote with more of a scumread doesn't make sense. In fact, I explicitly explained in a post that you quoted in your argument that it was NOT me saying "scum found", it was that it was a better reason to vote than randomness. Just because that reason existed does not mean that I was bound to see it through; I'm pretty happy with the votes I made yesterday instead of going after absta and it's unfair to say that I bailed on a scumread or anything like that. I never followed it up because other things happened that were more important than a reason which I was pretty clear was clutching at straws to be anything other than random.

On not voting Jason; well, sorry if you don't like it, but I've played games with Jason and Sotty before, I've seen Sotty read him like a book, it just didn't make a lick of sense to me to bother going after him on Day 1 of such a large game if she was vouching for him. We had other options, it was pointlessly contradictory to my previous experience.

Apparently I found DeasVail's 483 more compelling than you did. OK. That happens. Again, if that's your view, I can see why you'd decide it makes me scummy, I guess, but personally I don't see that there's anything more there than two differing reactions to DV's post.

Re: "as discussed before," yeah, I was covering my back a little. This is a large game, with too many walls. I figured it wouldn't hurt to point out that if people wanted to ask where my vote came from, they should iso me.

[ChannelDelibird]

The above is obviously in response to this.

[ChannelDelibird]

Needless to say, I'm now interested in a Jason vote again pending his reponse/Sottyrulez explaining what's changed.

[Might post as I go a bit, last one was way too wally for my liking]

[ChannelDelibird]

This from BT reads like something that I would have posted as scum in these circumstances.

[ChannelDelibird]

Actually before I start looking more deeply I'll explain where I'm currently standing. I don't have a lot of solid reads; deal with it.

Confident town reads

Pless
Deasvail

Happy to assume town for now

Benmage
Zdenek
The Mini-Librarian

Feeling town

SafetyDance
kuribo

Feeling scum

Jason

That obviously leaves me with six players who I don't have much of a read on. As I said last post, BT rung an uncomfortably familiar bell with his last post but the rest of his iso varies between walls and nothing of noteworthy scumminess. I'll probably read Nostredeus next while putting off SAD (too many frakking posts to iso) and camn (can't read her at all) for as long as possible.

VOTE: Jason for the time being, happy to see how this sottyrulez 180 plays out.

And sorry about the spam.

[ChannelDelibird]

Just writing up something longer but I've got to say: Why is it so hard to grasp that finding a reason to vote better than "totally random" in the early stages does not enter me into some kind of honour-bound guarantee to go after absta later?

[ChannelDelibird]

cdb - Why is DV one of your most confident town reads [

snip, rest of post addressed later -CDB

]?

See, here your just saying "too bad, we differ in views". Which if you are town, doesn't help anybody try to understand your mindset. You haven't discussed why you thought the post was compelling, you're just saying we see it differently from you and dismissing it.

Me saying "we differ in views on this post"

is

me helping you to understand my mindset. My mindset is that I don't think it helps the town to deeply analyse the DeasVail post in question because different people are going to agree and disagree with it without that split being based on alignment.

In 483, I agreed with DV on his explanation of why he felt McStab's posts did not comprise genuine scumhunting. I thought his approach to reading McStab (seeing the psychological pattern) was a town way of scumhunting, ironically the opposite of that of which he was accusing McStab. Not everyone will have seen it the same way but it struck a chord with me.

[ChannelDelibird]

Reading. In the meantime, CDB, what in my #1095 made you think scum?

I've made pretty much that exact post as scum more than once before. Coming back after a few pages to pick up on a single, more visible sentence, while promising a read and adding some specific names to investigate to make it look a bit more concentrated than a simple "I'm working on it".

[ChannelDelibird]

what feels town about Kuribo?

ActionDan's emotional outburst struck me as a town player losing it, a more extreme case of "getting offended because how could anyone keep doubting I'm town".

Also, why are you basically following Sotty's lead on Jason, yet don't have any read on Sotty?

I'm not really following Sotty's lead on Jason - my read on Jason has been consistent. But it was logical to look at other options on Day 1 when Sotty vouched for him, regardless of Sotty's alignment. Either way, both of them could wait, and letting Sotty have her way on Jason could potentially be the most interesting way to get a better read on her slot later.

[ChannelDelibird]

Here are my thoughts in regards to CDB's posts. From reading, there's an air of reservation in them that doesn't sit right with me.

A product of this being a large game with too many walls.

You voted TML in RVS, absta, SafetyDance, and finally TGAH, you dismissed the reasoning to vote absta as argumenting there were more interesing things going on; you had a vote on SafetyDance who you now have as leaning town. Your vote on TGAH comes at a point were the wagon is very much a given. As Cerulean points, you are now voting Jason out of a rekindlement with your D1 arguments only after a vote provided by a slot you don't have a read on. One of your most solid town reads is somebody you considered voting in #311 as an alternative to your SD vote, a wagon you preferred (#429) for even after you had stated thinking their push on Arthur seemed genuine in #311.

So, the question is: Why are you happy with your D1 votes again?

I'm happy with my Day 1 votes because they reflected how I felt at the time. The SafetyDance vote made sense at the time but the impression of him playing it too safe diminished as he got more into the game. You can make inferences about the timing of my TGAH vote if you like (it's not like I was posting and biding my time until the wagon looked inevitable, I simply wasn't there - and anyone will tell you that's not a tell either way for me) but I'm happy that I was on a scum lynch.

Re: DV, reads change. That's natural. There's a sliding scale of flexibility with one's opinions and it's scummy to be at either end, but it's not so strange that my view on DV might shift from considering a vote to having a solid town read on him.

[ChannelDelibird]

Will read over Jason's response to sotty a little later on today; sorry, because I know that being only in a defensive, responding-to-things-aimed-at-me-only mode is not actually all that protown, but I need a bit of a break.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB, do you think DV's Absta waffle is circumstantial then? That didn't look like a reply to my post but whatever.

Hmm, I must have missed that at the time. I'm not sure what to make of it - it seems like something that he would have known would tie him to absta if he flipped scum, so it doesn't strike me as especially beneficial to say it for DVscum, but it does make for slightly uncomfortable reading. I still wouldn't touch DV today.

[ChannelDelibird]

Sotty - Definitely the last Wire game (even though I knew Jason was scum because I was too, your connection was obvious) and possibly one more that I'm forgetting but also general word-of-mouth experience tells me your read is usually worth trusting.

SAD's passive aggression is annoying because it suits him fine either way - either I do eventually get on his wagon and he gets to say "I told you so, CDB's scum" or I don't (which, by the way, was fairly clearly looking the likelier of the two) and I gets to have a go at me for purposely avoiding his suspicion to try to make a much-needed friend or something. There was very little indication that I would be getting on your wagon, dude, so why be so snide about it?

Some of those saying "CDB feels off" - including but not limited to kuribo - are going to have to do better. Why? For most of the people here who I've played with before, it's been a fair while and my play has changed a bit (I hope others would agree it's improved slightly). If it's just that I'm still even posting, when in days gone by I would long since have flaked from a game this large and long, that's just a product of playing fewer games, trying harder not to let people down by flaking and refusing to read walls, but frankly I would expect more of a reason than that anyway.

[ChannelDelibird]

And yeah, yesterday didn't happen on Jason. Work happened instead. I'm sorry. Definitely happening today, though. Not working for a long time and woken up earlier than I expected. If I don't post a reaction to Jason's Day 2 posts today, then you have my permission to lynch me.

[ChannelDelibird]

Oh, sorry, just realised I misinterpreted SAD's post. Read "my wagon" rather than "the wagon". Sorry, as I said I woke up too early. Er, ignore that, SAD.

[ChannelDelibird]

But you do know I have kuribo as town, yeah? Why are you expecting me to get on his wagon?

[ChannelDelibird]

a) No, I'm just British.
b) Read any of my games and/or non-mafia commitments on this site. Procrastinating and having to work are not scumtells for me.
c) WTF, I was answering a direct question and the caveat had to be made because otherwise sotty would have brought it up herself. This is a pretty fucking dense thing to say, camn.

[ChannelDelibird]

On Jason's Day 2:

2 cops down, thats a great start.

This is frankly more of a worry than any of his responses to the sottyrulez vote - in that, at least, he took the sensible approach which I think is probably what he should and would have done as both town and scum. The happiness at the night deaths, particularly coming in late... seems forced. I've seen both alignments do it but scum more often, I think.

Jason has straight-batted pretty much everything today - I'll be interested to see what his thoughts on the 1v1 are once he's, as he says, had a better read, because that last remark "spoilt brats, ignore it, but hey I've hardly read so maybe not" seems to be the latest of a series of opinions carrying getout clauses - "ohhhh the kuribo thing hurts my head because he's my scumread but scum don't 1v1 so I guess he's scum but I dunno" also comes to mind here.

Certainly no unvote from me for the time being.

[ChannelDelibird]

Also, this post:

If you think we're scum with TGAH after the way day 1 played out, I really don't know what to tell you.

Um...Traitor? (jus sayin)

Go read his final post after being lynched. He went out of his way to mention us being a possible SK. That would just be an odd thing to say about someone you would theoretically know is on your scumteam.

(I think he posted that because he wanted the town to consider us a serial killer suspect to salvage any value in our lynchability, but of course I have the benefit of knowing my alignment.)

...makes me think sottyrulez is town. Says it the way I'd be thinking it as town.

[ChannelDelibird]

Which, I guess, makes Nostredeus my next to-read.

[ChannelDelibird]

Pless: your thoughts?

[ChannelDelibird]

Procrastinating and having to work are not scumtells for me.

Have you been skimming?
Its OK if you have.

Pretty much yes. As I said, I have a personal policy of not reading walls for fun reasons, so I've skimmed the occasional one of those that looks personally relevant to me.

If it's just that I'm still even posting, when in days gone by I would long since have flaked from a game this large and long, that's just a product of playing fewer games, trying harder not to let people down by flaking and refusing to read walls, but frankly I would expect more of a reason than that anyway.

My issue with you is your excessive buddying of sottyrulez.

He's back off of Jason...Yet you're still voting Jason. What's up? ***Also I asked for you in my spoiler to list your current reasoning for suspecting jason.

I have explained this more than once: My read on Jason was not DICTATED by sotty, just my decision not to pursue his lynch yesterday, because it seemed dumb to risk my read against sotty's experience of him when we had other options. Now, with two scum dead, we're in a good position, so I'm happy to go after him.

What got me yesterday on Jason was him going after Vifam, petapan etc purely on what looked like playstyle concerns. I felt certain that he should know them a bit better or at least recognise that he wasn't going to fundamentally change them, but instead it just looked like he was pushing to see if people were willing to give him lynch a spiky player. Today ... well, I've discussed today.

[ChannelDelibird]

But you do know I have kuribo as town, yeah? Why are you expecting me to get on his wagon?

Why do you have this read?

ActionDan's emotional outburst struck me as a town player losing it, a more extreme case of "getting offended because how could anyone keep doubting I'm town".

[ChannelDelibird]

what I really don't like is the multiple times CDB has said he'd be "reading Nost" (#1393/#1153 to name two) before moving swiftly on; I'm not sure what CDB is trying to do with that (I mean maybe CDB is trying to drum up some chat on me without doing it himself, I'm really not sure *shrugs*), but frankly if someone's going to say they're reading me I kinda want them to go ahead and read me, ya know?

Fair enough - what I'm actually trying to do is find the time to do everything in this game that I should, because I only have so much time in the day and so much willing to do so much typing in this game. First time that I mentioned reading you, I started to get pulled up in defending myself and then reading up on chief suspect Jason today (which, I hope you'll agree, was the right priority then). The second time ... actually, not a lot of time had passed between me saying I should read you this time and your post. I can understand why you saw the pattern, but now that I've checked up on Jason I'm freer to check up on others. I'll hopefully have time to do that today.

[ChannelDelibird]

Any response to the mountain of posts I've been making, TML? Or are you just tuning them out?

kuribo - as I've mentioned before, I'm light on scum suspects and need to do more to look for them. I doubt I'll get a chance to read Nostredeus tonight but I'll do it in the morning if not.

[ChannelDelibird]

I tell you what - I'm not particularly genuinely trying to find scum, right now, you're right. I'm genuinely trying to find time to hopefully find scum, but my attempts to defend myself are taking precedence because I've got an ego and I don't like letting people talk about/to me without responding as a priority, particularly given the votes on me. There's only so much time I can give to this game and most of it, at the moment, is taken up by talking about me, which I admit is a bad thing. Scumhunting has been priority number two, so I apologise.

[ChannelDelibird]

kuribo - I explained Jason very recently, hunt it out because I can't be arsed to go back a page and quote it.

I don't think it's dissonant to say "Those that say I just seem off are gonna have to do better". It's not like focusing on people talking just about me when in a big game is a new thing for me and it's certainly not as if I should have to explain what's off about me instead of them. It's their opinion, let them justify it if they want to vote me.

As for a three-shot dayvig ... Eh. I dunno. Jason, obviously. ZONEACE, because my experience in games with him has not previously been fun. Kise, dead weight since replacing in.

[ChannelDelibird]

I lied; I can be arsed, apparently. here you go

[ChannelDelibird]

I understand that I'm not actively scumhunting but the point I was making is that people need to at least prove that they show an understanding of my play in this game rather than just saying "sure, CDB wagon's fine, looks off" because that's how scum coast on a town lynch.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'll double-check who was guilty of the above just a little later on - I'm actually posting all this

during

reporting on a match for work so can't really take the time to check through the thread for stuff. Will answer that as soon as I can.

[ChannelDelibird]

No, you're right. I didn't get my reasons for suspecting Jason down in writing on Day 1. Frankly, I was as surprised to find that out as you were when I noticed.

I'll tell you who'll lose sleep if I hang today - me. That's why I'm working so much on defending myself and not spending enough time on scumhunting. As I say, reading up on people like Nostredeus is coming by tomorrow at the latest and an answer to kuribo's question will come when my current work assignment is done.

Seems to me there's a bit of a vicious circle going on here whereby I get suspected for one thing, spend all my time defending it, and then the suspicion becomes that I'm spending all my time defending and not contributing otherwise. I'm not disagreeing with the facts of that; I'm just saying, I think it's perfectly understandable for me to be in this situation and I think that, if you read me while accepting that I'm town, it's obvious.

[ChannelDelibird]

You know what, fuck it. I'm doing it all tonight. Analysing my wagon, reading Nostredeus properly and one more possible scum too is the target. I've got a column to write tonight but I'll leave it late and it'll be a bit shit but it's time I got on fucking top of this game. You fuckers are not lynching me today and that's final.

[ChannelDelibird]

The votes on me - guilty or not guilty of coasting on my wagon?

Pless

- I'm happy with this, as I've said before. I can see the town thinking behind it and it's been explained properly and at length. Not guilty.

Zdenek

- Literally the only thing Zdenek has said about me is "I don't have anything to add to what's been said." when he voted for me. I've posted a metric fuckton since then and he's added nothing. The claim is the only thing that is stopping me from calling scum on this one but I'm pretty pissed off about it anway. Sentencing delayed.

The Mini-Librarian

- Said literally nothing about me other than his initial vote and a general "I just want CDB to hang/this wagon's so great" until I explicitly called him on ignoring me. I had him down as assumed town but have forgotten why and his play suits someone looking to ride my wagon and offer the bare minimum to add to my desperate defence when questioned on it. Guilty.

kuribo

- Fits the criteria for guilty, though his questioning of me over this last page feels town. He's not just left me to roast, even though personally I find it unlikely that we played together enough (or sufficiently recently) for him to judge me on the basis that he seems to have done. Plus, y'know, ActionDan. Innocent.

camn

- Has mentioned me very little and the vote on me was pretty poor, as I said at the time. Guilty.

If there's scum on my wagon, TML and camn look the best bets. Now I'm going to look to see if there's anyone who's guilty of stoking/coasting with the wagon without currently being on it.

[ChannelDelibird]

Oh, Nostredeus is on my wagon too (was going off the last vote count). I've already responded to Nost recently though and that exchange in itself was understandable so I'm not worried about that particularly. Innocent on that front, but I'll read Nost properly next once I've done this sweep.

[ChannelDelibird]

Non-current votes with relationships to my wagon

Cerulean

- Has not mentioned me often and was a bit general in the "oh, I agree with the CDB wagon" early on Day 2. Has questioned me on other things, though, rather than just letting it ride. The lack of a vote on me is suitable to the amount of discussion they've had about me. Innocent.

BT

- specified an intent to read me, then later said "I'm in pretty solid agreement with the CDB suspicion but I want peta/dan/kuribo or sotty lynched more." Convenient position re: my wagon while staying pretty quiet overall - and honestly I thought our little talk before went pretty well, but apparently not - plus my earlier feeling that one of his posts was something I'd have written as scum, I could see BT as scum quite easily. Guilty.

Sottyrulez

- "The CDB hate is somewhat tasty" is all they've said about my wagon and that was a while ago. I want more than that, sotty, if you're going to go anywhere near my wagon any time soon. Guilty.

[ChannelDelibird]

IN SUMMARY

Of those on or expressing an interest in my wagon, the most likely scum at the moment is in the group {The Mini-Librarian, camn, BT, sottyrulez}. Colour me interested in any of those if anyone else wants to get on them.

[ChannelDelibird]

NOSTREDEUS

Proposes a mass name-claim early on and gets shot down quickly. Reaction to it struck as town.

Shadoweh unvote in 461 potentially worrying as it left the wagon kinda while leaving the door open should we have fallen back into a deadline lynch or something. Would I have picked it out as scummy if I hadn't been reading Nost specifically in iso to judge him one way or another, though? I'm not sure; most likely not, I guess.

Slight backdown in position on TML between 582 and 693, I felt. It's subtle but it definitely feels like, when questioned, Nost just pulls back into something more acceptable. Again, though, I'm worried if I'm just seeing this because I'm isoing.

Absta's 725 mentions Nost for pretty much the first time and it's in a kinda coachy manner, explaining what's already there to Nost rather than being an inquisitive post. Maybe a slight hint at partners; they certainly don't interact much overall.

Nost's 1250 on the sotty-Jason D2 interaction is good, though, and feels like an honest "WTF?" town reaction to the business. He interprets it as sottyscum but at this point I'm more considering whether sotty and Jason might both be scum. The post does seem town, though.

Then going to read sotty's resulting vote on Nost, I don't much like it. It strikes me as scum seizing on just-too-convenient an excuse to move away from the Jason vote, their argument sufficiently played out for the cameras, and bringing up the TML thing from what is now actually quite a while ago.

Summary

Overall, reading through Nost was a little bit up and down but, allowing for the confirmation bias-y-ness of isoing someone specifically I think it comes out fairly town overall. Particularly the recent interaction with sotty, which I think certainly makes sotty come out looking worse and me strongly considering that sotty and Jason could be partners going too hard on the metadrama.

My apologies for the wall.

[ChannelDelibird]

So I now have a scum suspect pool of: Jason, sottyrulez, BT, camn, The Mini-Librarian.

I'm interested in Jason/sotty as a general theory so I'll leave them out of this for time's sake but I'll now look at the latter three in iso with absta. I'll start with BT.

Absta and BT's interaction is, I think, very interesting. This is from BT's first post after replacing in:

Someone who knows Absta should give me their opinion on #134. It's either scum being stupid nitpicky or town being stupid nitpicky and it sounds like an easy-to-read post with meta. (the bubbles comment seemed non-serious , hence nitpicky conspiracy theoreist mode)

It looks like he has an opinion on absta but he's actually leaving his options completely open - if what he half-points-out is accepted by other players and they run with it, he'll follow and take the credit, but if they don't, he can just ignore it, which he does indeed do.

absta never acknowledges this part of BT's post.

After this, both BT and absta go after camn, the latter more explosively but both express strong scum suspicion.

BT has not mentioned anything about camn since absta died.

UNVOTE: Jason, VOTE: BT

[ChannelDelibird]

Also I think you need to read our side of the nost exchange. (Your including it in an iso post indicates you've only read his side of that.)

I did read your part of it too. I wouldn't have felt comfortable making the judgement that I did without doing so.

[ChannelDelibird]

I should add that absta and BT ganging up on camn as they did makes me happy to discount camn from my scumpool for now.

Right now I think my best bet is BT, though I'm happy to return to the Jason vote if needs be, and either TML or sotty.

[ChannelDelibird]

It's certainly an influence. I'm pretty damn sure I'm not as obvscum as those advocating my lynch seem to want people to think so the throwaway nature of the comment is suspicious. I think your interaction with Nost is scummy independently of that comment but each makes me more confident about being on the right track with the other.

[ChannelDelibird]

Well, I hope it's become understood thanks to my various different wordings that my Jason vote was not dependent on your position on him.

I wouldn't be comfortable saying either the comment on me or the Nost interaction is more influential in my suspicion of you, really. Both felt like part of the same dash just now so it's hard to separate. Call it about even.

[ChannelDelibird]

Here's how I see it: The people who have been most vocal and verbose about my wagon feel more town. They've explained their thinking more, taken the initiative on it, and seem town to me despite being wrong.

People like you, BT, et cetera have said little and less but stoked the fire of a wagon that was first running quickly up and now is in a position where it looks like it's dragging towards a "yeah, sure, that'll do" lynch. The scum motivation is to let that happen without having to justify it too much at the time because they know it's going to flip town.

[ChannelDelibird]

Sure. Why should your position on the wagon change my suspicion of you, as you imply? And no, I'm not saying simply talking more = town, I'm saying those people talked more and I liked what they said.

As I said, I looked at camn's interactions with both absta and BT, which has formed a big part of my new vote. I haven't made comparisons with TGAH yet because the nature of the traitor role is unknown - did the scum know who he was? Did he even know (likely, but let's not rule anything out)?

I haven't compared you and absta yet. BT was more pressing. I really do have work to do now but it will be my next order of business tomorrow. For the rest of tonight I'll be around to respond to anything immediate while I procrastinate.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK. Just one last question for now. I may have missed it, but why was BT more pressing than the others?

When I started reading him in iso with absta, I was expecting to get maybe vague hints about possible connections and then have to do the same with others and compare. But, having already had more than one occasion where I'd noted something about him looking scummy, to then see that iso and the massive connection to absta on the camn vote, which he's since ditched altogether, it looked pretty clear that this was a proper case I had on my hands and one worth pressing ahead with immediately. I feel good about this. Three strikes on the scumdar - BT is out.

[ChannelDelibird]

Would like to see some of the people noting better townreads on me/unvoting to consider following me to BT or at least comment on my vote. I feel it's a real go-er.

Lots of work today but I should have time later tonight to look at absta's relationship with TML if that will make the latter feel better. After that, though, I'm looking forward to deeper comment from him on my recent posts and vote.

[ChannelDelibird]

Apologies, I pretty much ignored this today in favour of a shiny new game that just started. I've skimmed the last couple of pages to keep up but I owe BT's rebuttals a more thorough read, plus that absta+TML iso I promised TML. Lots of time tomorrow so it's all good.

[ChannelDelibird]

Ah, fuck, I completely wasted my day off. Major apologies. I'm busy today but if my shift is quiet I'll try to get something up this morning.

[ChannelDelibird]

Finally I have time! Reading everything in the next couple of hours. Your patience is appreciated.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm a few pages into my catch-up and I will keep going but I want to move my vote now as time is of the essence. I will swap back if needs be by the end of the read.

UNVOTE: BT
VOTE: Ser Arthur Dayne

The key posts are:

BT's 1566 which is actually kinda town, consisting of a lot of defending the actions I found scummy in a kind of "because I did" way, as if there couldn't be a "why", it just obviously *is*. Just because he's offered an explanation for things doesn't mean I believed it but he just assumes that it was accepted because it feels obvious to him.

BT wanted me to address 1665 when I caught up. I don't actually have a very good answer for it; only that I must have missed it buried in a wall. I can't come up with a reason behind the quote which makes more sense for scum than town.

There's also Pless's 1603 which gives the first brief explanation of the SAD case that I've at least found at the right time to read, and it makes me want to vote SAD more. I'll double-check his absta/TGAH interactions when I'm finished reading but I've seen enough to move across the wagons at this point.

[ChannelDelibird]

And yeah, fuck 2079.

[ChannelDelibird]

SAD's 1871 leaves him open on several slots (me, Jason, kuribo) in particular without really committing either way but paving the way for a vote on all of them. That's the position I'd like to be in as scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

To those understandably worrying why I disappeared again after everyone got off my back: Having expended quite a lot of effort into fighting my wagon and apparently won, I was slow to get back into it. Doing that much work for a game is quite enjoyable in the end because of the payoff but it always feels like it's going to be a chore

before

I do it. As I said, there was also a new game that started which stole some of my attention, plus various IRL distractions & work. Dropping off and having to catch up in bursts just isn't a tell either way for me.

[ChannelDelibird]

BT's activity and clarity of thought over the last couple of pages feel town too. I'm confident now that I've made the right choice between these two.

[ChannelDelibird]

How do you feel about camn then? She's been softclaiming vig pretty hard.

[ChannelDelibird]

So.. my townie brethren.. take a gander at those quotes and decide for yourself. Town? Scum? Worth keeping alive? VigBait?

That said, I happen to be town this game, and I am in love with our unknown vigilante for believing in me

I think it is reasonable to think that since the scum actually thought they could mislynch me yesterday, before Absta got ruthlessly vigged, they were a bit out of sorts today, and scattered in re: their strategy to deal with me.

I'm not the first to mention it.

[ChannelDelibird]

Time to do that TML-absta read to which I never got around yesterday:

@Absta: why no vote for Safety Dance in 134

Could conceivably be the sort of obvious, surface question that scum would ask a buddy. Next post involves justifying that question under scrutiny from Shadoweh and playing it straight.

Then absta comes back, basically says "fuck it" and ignores most things, including TML.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: absta

Seriously don't like any of his posts.

Scum Reads:
Absta (doesn't seem to be interested in finding scum. useless questions)

Again; could conceivably be scum seeing that this is all they're getting out of absta and going for the bus, or just a town reaction to lazy play. It doesn't swing either way.

Then TML just switches his vote to peta and doesn't really mention his absta suspicion again. The two have a brief interaction about whether TML has meta'd peta and it's brief, civil and unremarkable. That is the last time either mentions the other, and it's a little strange. TML's absta suspicion is just ignored for the rest of the day, even though there are a few hops across wagons in search of a deadline lynch. I'd kind of expect town to whinge a bit here, like "I wish we could get an absta wagon going" or something, because there's been no visible indication that TML's suspicion (which was a blanket "all of his posts are bad") had waned. That sits worse with me than the actual interactions that he does have with absta and his reasons for suspecting him.

VOTE: The Mini-Librarian for now.

I'm going to read some other people too, including Jason. I have a feeling I'm going to agonise over the meaning of Sotty's death for a long time.

[ChannelDelibird]

ChannelDeliBird

SCUM

. Im actuly proposing RVS BUSSING and COACHINGas real tells here. I know there MIGHT be daytalk, but not for sure right?

I actually agree that scum are more likely to vote for one of their buddies randomly at game start BUT if you were looking for that tell from me, you would have to be looking at this post rather than this. As a personal rule, nothing past my first vote (if even that) is random so the circumstances of your tell do not apply to my absta vote. And yes, I know I'm saying that if TML, for whom I am voting, flips scum, then you would be able to look at me with that tell. But, of course, just because scum random-voting one of their buddies is a psychological possibility, that doesn't mean that only scum do it.

As for coaching, I haven't really ever noticed scum doing it more than town. Absta's post frustrated me, I told him how to fix it. I would gain from him heeding it as scum, sure, but town-me also gains from absta reading more by opening up more discussion.

[ChannelDelibird]

At the start of today, I'm happy enough with my townreads on Cerulean, kuribo, Pless and BT not to go there right now, plus of course Zdenek. I'm going to have another look at Kise, camn, DeasVail, Nostredeus, Benmage and Jason just to refresh my reads at the very least.

[ChannelDelibird]

If Ben wants me to respond to it, he'll have to say something about it. I've already rebutted actual things that people have said about me. As I said, I intend to reread him, so how that vote affects his alignment will wait until then. I pretty much completely ignored him yesterday because I was prepared to assume that he and Zdenek were town for the time being.

[ChannelDelibird]

Her!?

Anyway, 2091. I understand the skepticism but I don't think anyone who knows me at all would be particularly surprised by my activity patterns.

[ChannelDelibird]

Meh. Fair enough. I don't really give a shit whether camn is a vig or not right now.

[ChannelDelibird]

Liking Pless's analysis a lot; good to see my read on TML lining up with it. Would like to see some more momentum in TML's direction; for some reason we seem to have slowed down today. I'll be doing some more reading tonight but I'm pretty happy that we're on the right track for the time being.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK. Kise is town.

[ChannelDelibird]

Everyone's in favour. TML's basically consented. Frankly just feel like we should do this already.

[ChannelDelibird]

Of course he didn't explicitly consent but he basically just said "yeah, you're pretty much right" to the various cases put against him and has shown zero urgency to turn around the tide of opinion. I've been there as scum before and done exactly the same thing. If I were town in his position, I'd be freaking out.

[ChannelDelibird]

Jason: Kise replaced with his own alt, which is fucking bizarre and pointless but not, I think, applicable as an argument against him. And no, we're not lynching kuribo. Get on the TML train sharpish.

[ChannelDelibird]

Plus TML is overdue a post and I'm curious what he says.

That's as much the point as anything he's actually said.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hooray for vote count analysis, where the analyser admits that the results are unclear and the votes are examined out of psychological context! Yippee!

I've rebutted your previous "rookie tells". You've come to a conclusion from your VCA because you feel like the work you put into it warranted a conclusion, not because there is one.

[ChannelDelibird]

And what is it that you like so much about TML's Day 2 play anyway?

[ChannelDelibird]

For goodness' sake. Lynchlynchlynch

[ChannelDelibird]

I mean, literally, we caught him and then he stopped posting. We have all seen this before. Stringing this out for eight days longer with a replacement coming in and reading 90 pages only to be lynched anyway and people talking themselves into stupid shit in the interim because that's what happens when you spend too much time on something IS A BAD, UNFUN IDEA.

[ChannelDelibird]

Heh. Combination of it being 2am over here and camn's ridiculous overconfidence in voting me having me annoyed. Aaaaaand relax.

[ChannelDelibird]

I mean, literally, we caught him and then he stopped posting.

Meh. You think he site-flaked (he's in at least two games as a player and modding one game as well) just because he'd started to get a few votes at the start of the day? Really?

(And while obviously I think he's the best bet for remaining Police right now, "caught" seems something of an overstatement. He's hardly more "caught" than you were at the start of day 2 .)

I wasn't aware that TML was flaking sitewide, although I have definitely found myself falling behind on multiple games before as a result of putting off contribution to one game before. The act of the shamed siteflake is in itself null; it could be motivated by feeling like caught scum here but it could be due to another game or just offsite stuff so I'll leave it.

Eh, caught's an overstatement maybe, though I'm definitely more confident than you are at this point. I also think there's a greater strength of opinion here than there was on me yesterday. We've got a solid majority agreeing in so many words that everything points to TML as scum; we never had such a majority on me. The pledged scumreads on TML outnumber the required lynching number.

Personally, I feel like this day is moving painfully slowly. It's clear that enough people think TML is scum and there's really not an awful lot going on other than people going "er, yeah, I'll reread some stuff later". I've seen towns talk themselves out of scumlynches before because they felt obliged to spend several remaining days of deadline for the sake of it. I don't want that to happen here.

[ChannelDelibird]

The pledged scumreads on TML outnumber the required lynching number.

Disclaimer: I haven't double-checked this. But I'm pretty sure.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, whatever. In that case I've already countered your "rookie tells". I simply don't understand why you're so confident in them.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'd be eagerly looking forward to seeing my eventual flip causing you to re-evaluate some things that you clearly believe to be immutable scumtells, except I am struck by the distinct impression that you will not do so despite being proved wrong. As it is, I can pretty much only shake my head at you now.

Call me back when we're ready to finally lynch TML.

[ChannelDelibird]

Equinox: I am thirsty for your blood. I feel diverting from your lynch would be a bad idea at this point. Sorry. Also, hi.

[ChannelDelibird]

Ben thinks the fact that I fell behind for a couple of days after doing a lot of work to (successfully) convince most of the game that I'm town is suspicious, which is understandable but I have previously argued against.

camn thinks she can catch me with buzzwords despite having her attempts to do so be rebutted rationally.

[ChannelDelibird]

kuribo, how does your uneasiness about BT's activity contrast (or otherwise) with your opinion on Benmage's vote on me?

[ChannelDelibird]

I mean, I don't know why I'm asking you, you're town. But I feel like I can't let that lie.

[ChannelDelibird]

I guess I'm going to have to read BT

again

but I'm pretty sure that Equinox is the better vote. I'm confident in my own case and the way that nearly everyone else seens to have narrowed their reads down to a position where he more or less has to be scum ... it feels right.

[ChannelDelibird]

kuribo, how does your uneasiness about BT's activity contrast (or otherwise) with your opinion on Benmage's vote on me?

because Benmage is being a complete idiot in this game for some reason and I've completely dismissed the idea of him doing anything rational for the duration

Well, OK, the word 'Benmage' is the least relevant part of the quote. What I'm asking is; people have made the argument you're making on BT about me. Do you think I'm suspicious?

Why am I even asking this?

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB:

Jason votes SAD for overcompensating, CDB asks him if his vote is serious, CDB later explains that his vote on Absta was serious because he saw Absta's petapan vote as possibly scum motivated.

This interaction makes me a bit worried about CDB, he asks Jason if his vote is serious, Jason's post makes it clear that his vote has reasons behind it, so the only obvious motivation for CDB to ask if the vote is serious, is if he's questioning if that is possible so early in the game, but that doesn't make any sense since his vote on Absta was apparently serious.

I haven't played with SAD before and I didn't know if Jason had either. SAD's roleplaying was IMO null, especially when we didn't know if he'd be carrying it on past the first page, so I wasn't sure whether Jason was joking, like "awww, you're overcompensating, you're such a scamp", or if he genuinely found it scummy. Their interactions were new to me and the point didn't chime with my gut reaction so I thought I should check. I certainly wasn't assuming that serious votes weren't possible at that stage.

After DV voted for McStab, CDB said that DV looks like scum, which is something that I don't understand.

DV is one of a few players I need to reread (which will probably happen tomorrow). I'll try to address this then.

CDB says that McStab has deviated from what he expected. He doesn't make an accusation at this point, but he's adding heat to the wagon. There's also no comparison with McStab's play as scum or with another town game, so have a hard time seeing CDB as actually thinking that this point was legit.

I might try to find some examples from other games (even though I pretty much can't be arsed) of me doing this before, saying "X feels different to before", because I do. I had, in fact, already given a link to my comparison point for McStab in this post because I previously had a townread on him based on my experiences from that game. (I'll repost that game link: this). The fact that I had previously had town vibes off him because of previous experience is why I didn't go all out in voting him at that stage.

[ChannelDelibird]

I've been skimming today with the intent of doing more tomorrow, as I mentioned this morning, but I wanted to pick up on this quickly:

the desire to lynch Absta

I've discussed how the desire to lynch Absta disappears completely after a certain point. I'd like for you to look back at their interactions more closely if you wouldn't mind.

[ChannelDelibird]

Cracking theory, Pless.

Camn, you do realise that TML and Equinox are one and the same? And I don't quite understand what you're getting at with the imagine-they're-town thing either...

[ChannelDelibird]

If this theory is true, by the way, then surely the post highlighted by pless makes TML/Equinox priority number one to die.

[ChannelDelibird]

Have reread Nostredeus and DeasVail. It has strengthened my townreads on Nost and seriously weakened my one on DV. Also feeling better about BTown.

Camn and Benmage are next on the list. I'll see if I can summon the willpower to do that now.

I'm increasingly not OK with BT as a fallback today. I think it's pretty important that the Equinox lynch goes through.

[ChannelDelibird]

Mid-Camn/Ben reread, but couldn't help pointing this out early:

UNVOTE.
VOTE : Plessiezarus

Plessiezarus is scum who is hiding in drivel.
No vote. No real commentary. No real discussion... BUT they find time for hydra self-reference, which is my new scumtell.

Holy shit Pless is conf town.

Good to see camn's super-awesome behavioural scumtells have never let her down before.

Disclaimer: I'm pretty sure there's going to be some confirmation bias involved in my read on camn at the end of this, but I will try as best I can to be objective.

[ChannelDelibird]

Have reread Nostredeus and DeasVail. It has strengthened my townreads on Nost and seriously weakened my one on DV. Also feeling better about BTown.

Could you expand on your Nostredeus-town read, please?

As I discussed at the time, his reaction to McStab's early pursuit of him was town, as well as his interaction with Sotty on Day 2. His brushes with TML don't strike me as scum butting heads for show. There's really nothing at all that suggests to me that Nostredeus is being false.

[ChannelDelibird]

camn's catalogue of super-reliable behavioural scumtells on parade, part two

b- real life excuses. The McStab/Zdenek is scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

ca "coaching is scummy" mn

@absta- I really feel like addressing your 'points' would be arguing with scum. And by that, I use the Spyrex definition.
Tighten up your questions, and I will consider them.

[ChannelDelibird]

camn, scumhunter extraordinaire

VOTE: CHANNELDELIBIRD

a) he seems nervous.
b) RL excuses
c) He mentioned he was scum last game... which is him trying to use the biggest cognitive fallacy in all of statistics against us. Subtle, but not too subtle for me to notice.

Point C in particular remains the stupidest fucking thing that's been said in this entire thread.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm currently reading camn and you in iso, just as I finished on Nost and DeasVail a little while ago. This is because you are the four players who I either had the least strong reads on or hadn't reevaluated for a while.

The reason I'm posting so many examples of camn's super scumtells being bullshit is because she's still pushing me as scum despite me repeatedly rebutting them for the crap they are. She's been pushing shit cases on me and others all game and using her ego as her shield. She's been practically begging us to play WIFOM over her attack on absta. I've had it up to here.

[ChannelDelibird]

camn, the thinker of our times

First of, Vifam.
Read his ISO, and you will see the most scummy, worthless run of posts ever created.
He pretty much complains of how slow the game is (while posting no content), and then complains about 'too much text', which to me means its too FAST, no? While providing no content. There is nothing there. He is terrible. I would lynch him on this alone.
Notably, he does put petapan on a scumlist, and he does completely ignore absta calling him (vifam) scum... but meh.

Ths is obviously bullshit based on player preference/style and not alignment. It's clear as day that Vifam simply wasn't having any fun in this group of players and replaced out. The last line is the only admissible piece of evidence but the confidence on the null stuff beforehand is just absurd.

[ChannelDelibird]

[ChannelDelibird]

Can't really be arsed to finish my iso but basically, Benmage is a reasonably solid townread, particularly if camn is scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

You're embarrassing yourself. I've just been explaining that I was rereading Benmage, on whom to my knowledge I've pretty much never previously given a read. Don't pretend like saying how I now see him was unnecessary.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hey, you know what happens when CDBscum gets caught? Do I get nervous and attack my accusers in a kamikaze blaze of glory?

No. I lurk.

Evidence:
CDBscum active-lurks his way to scum doom as the cause gets progressively more lost
The last The Wire-themed game, starring (gasp) CAMN! Convenient of her to forget about this
CDBscum replaces in and lurks like crazy until he wins
CDBscum is overwhelmed and lurks as long as he can before being euthanised

[ChannelDelibird]

The crucial part you're missing is when I came back and jumped down camn's throat. Being busy now and then isn't lurking. Letting being busy be an excuse for posting at a minimum is lurking.

[ChannelDelibird]

THis really isn't CDBs forum scum play. He has one of the most divergent meta differences.

[ChannelDelibird]

The last The Wire-themed game, starring (gasp) CAMN! Convenient of her to forget about this

cannot emphasise enough

[ChannelDelibird]

The reason I'm posting so many examples of camn's super scumtells being bullshit is because she's still pushing me as scum despite me repeatedly rebutting them for the crap they are.

I can understand being annoyed at being suspected for what seem like silly reasons, but ... you knew your repeated goading of camn was going to provoke exactly this response, right?

I didn't post them for her benefit.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm usually happy to try to divine the purposes of nightkills but I can only imagine that I'd tie my head in WIFOMy notes over the sotty kill. I think it's one for when we have some more flips.

[ChannelDelibird]

Camn, I'm trying to be polite about this because my intention is absolutely never to offend fellow players, but I'm sure you know that being "full of shit", as variously described by me and Zdenek, is being discussed as being a scum tactic, rather than a personal insult. You're experienced enough to know the difference - and from what I can tell of your tone you're acting unimpressed rather than hurt - so I don't really appreciate being snidely mentioned as if I am trying to offend you personally. I'm angry because I think you're targeting me as scum; I'd just like you to acknowledge the difference because otherwise I'm going to get Britishly uncomfortable.

I probably thought too long about this post and may have got tangled over my words, but hopefully the point comes across.

[ChannelDelibird]

Better put: I think there's a difference between what we're doing and what you're implying that we're doing, I think you know as much and are being disingenuous about it, and I think that is as much of an issue for your "character" than anything that we've said. I'd like us to do this just slightly more honourably.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, glad to hear no lines have been crossed. I think it's pretty obvious from the fact that I've made actual arguments against you rather than just "THE BAD WOMAN IS MAKING ME CRY" that I can't be described as targeting your character directly, but then again I suppose you can't say anything else because I'm right and you're not allowed to admit it.

tl;dr, lynch Equinox and then follow up on camn tomorrow for sweet justice.

[ChannelDelibird]

Obviously not. Whose benefit did you post them for? Do you think it helps the town to have you and camn sniping at each other like this?

I posted them because I find camn's pushes on me for bullshit buzzword tells to be scummy as well as plain wrong, so I wanted people to be as aware of that as possible - Benmage, for instance, who is also voting for me, plus anyone who might be thinking about listening to camnscum in some way. My original intention was to pack them all in one post and make the point in a slightly less yelly way, but the way in which camn has gone about attacking me have really rubbed me up the wrong way so I got too keen to point them out as soon as I found them (it's a hard thing to stop once you've posted the first one).

I agree that our sniping match was excessive but I do think it had benefits; we've seen that camn will refuse to properly engage with criticisms of her vote and it led me to bring out some of my meta, which includes a direct example of camn legitimately catching CDBscum, who played completely differently to this.

[ChannelDelibird]

I agreed with what Cerulean said, btw, that was why I stopped posting for an hour.

[ChannelDelibird]

I caught CDB?
I should probably go read that then....if I am of the opinion that no one learns from their mistakes and changes their play.

Seven years of the same shitty scumplay begs to differ, though I am happy to accept that my continuing to argue this point past giving you all the meta links you need is an entirely pointless exercise.

[ChannelDelibird]

But you know who is starting to annoy?
THESE GUYS-->

Not voting (5) :

Cerulean

, JasonT1981, Zdenek, Equinox, Shaft

With this, at least, I agree.

[ChannelDelibird]

Ugh. I really don't want to reread Nost and BT again because every pore of my scumhunting body is screaming that the Equinox wagon falling apart is a BAD THING and that I should trust my instinct. I have a day off tomorrow, though, so I will give the cases a once-over just to be a good townie about it.

[ChannelDelibird]

Just FYI: I got almost no sleep last night and am now apocalyptically tired. I might read the BT & Nost stuff today if I get less cranky but it's entirely plausible that I'm just gonna fuck it off and play videogames until I fall into a coma.

[ChannelDelibird]

Looks like I'm playing some mafia today after all...

@actiondan: Do you know the name of your qt? (Essentially do you know if your qt name is Orlando's or not?)

Still think, in light of Pless's theory, this needs to be considered more strongly as a reason to lynch Equinox.

[ChannelDelibird]

Rereading today at the moment for BT/Nost stuff. In the meantime:

JASON!

Yes, you. Please put some effort into this game. Thanks.

[ChannelDelibird]

The above makes me suspicious of heavily stable wagons with members who don't make an effort to consider other cases and also compromise voters, SAD's wagon has both.

Pretend I'm town for a moment. Do you think there's a difference between what happened with the Ser Arthur Dayne wagon and what's happening with the Equinox wagon?

Could be confirmation bias but I don't see why Equinox has to add the caveat of "pretend I'm town" here. If he believes in the point and is appealing to Nost as a townie (which he appears to be doing, given that he's addressing Nost directly rather than pointing out his flaws in reasoning to the town as a whole), then the point should stand up by itself without needing to subtly emphasise the idea that Equinox is town.

[ChannelDelibird]

Rereading Day 3 makes me still more comfortable with my Nost townread; Equinox reads like scum who reckons he can take down one last mislynch before the inevitable occurs. Totally 100% not interested in a Nost lynch today.

BT I could see as more likely but I also don't think there's any chance that I'd want to move away from Equinox in order to vote him today.

[ChannelDelibird]

One last thing I spotted while reading,

FAO Zdenek

:

Camn and Jason are unlikely to be scum because of Absta interactions.

And all this chatter about me- I would ignore it. There is no amount of bussing that I would be unwilling to do, as scum, and thus it is all WIFOM.

she's either SK or town, her interaction with absta would require incredibly ballsy bussing

I thought I mentioned it- there is no limit to my ability to buss.

[ChannelDelibird]

It's more about whether Absta was bussing than whether she was bussing.

OK, I can understand this; it doesn't fit with a part of Pless's meta analysis. Personally, I feel camn's scumminess and the fact that she's practically begging us to WIFOM her absta interactions (which benefits her not a jot as town, by the way, as opposed to the headfuckery that suits camnscum) are enough to override that particular concern, but this is of course a discussion for a future day. Just wanted camn's WIFOM made loud and clear in case I die more than anything else.

[ChannelDelibird]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, ENOUGH WITH THE MATHS

more later

[ChannelDelibird]

I have a sense that more people than just camn are giving Equinox a pass because she's a replacement and because her posts make her seem calmer and more rational than BT or Nost (even if only camn says as much).

DING DING DING

(And there's also the fact TML asked ActionDan for the name of his QT, if we think that theory has any merit).

Still important.

He was attacked by TGAH, so we'd have to assume TGAH didn't know all the Police, and I'm slightly worried that Nost's wagon analysis is just like his maths -- that is, it's obviously wrong, but also something Nost actually believes in.

:goodposting:

At this point there really isn't much I'm likely to want to add before deadline. Nost is a bad lynch; BT is nowhere near as good a lynch as Equinox.

[ChannelDelibird]

Why the mysterious warning about letting you have the hammer rather than just going ahead and vote BT? That whole post smells of hinting bullshit.

[ChannelDelibird]

Either you are hinting that BT should not be lynched today, in which case you will have to self-hammer or leaving Nostredeus be was pointless, or that's not what you're hinting in which case there is literally no reason for you not to vote BT at this point.

[ChannelDelibird]

I have seen 'main' characters as safe claims before. As we've speculated already, entirely plausible that there is a bulletproof scum role, given that there are two kills going around. Entirely plausible that Avon Barksdale is a safe claim for exactly that bulletproof scum role.

Equinox should be lynched.

[ChannelDelibird]

And still no vote from Equinox. You can't say "Nostredeus must be investigated only when I flip" while ruling out self-hammering to ensure that we get a flip. Why are you not voting for BT so that we get a different flip? And do you actually have any scumreads at all?

[ChannelDelibird]

This is me explicitly not moving to BT unless things remain this way with five minutes until deadline.

[ChannelDelibird]

What do you think we're doing if not holding for you?

[ChannelDelibird]

Definitely want massclaim to happen today.

[ChannelDelibird]

And I want camn to go first, too.

[ChannelDelibird]

Jason's more likely to be town than you. Claim.

[ChannelDelibird]

Sorry, should have added: Role first, targets later is fine by me.

[ChannelDelibird]

I am, appropriately, Bird. VT.

Now Jason (cue three-day wait).

[ChannelDelibird]

Excellent, more certain than ever of Cerulean's towniness. I have to think about DV a little bit in light of the claim but I don't think it'll change anything - I'm reasonably happy that we're in a good position to blaze through this with PoE; having reread some overnight, I'm very confident that the remaining scum are camn and Benmage.

I have no doubts at all about Cerulean, kuribo and shaft. I have only the paranoia that comes with seven consecutive dead town against Pless but I'm not listening to it; it's just a natural response. They're not cleared but this is not the sort of townread that you second-guess for no reason.

I'm happy-ish with Jason as town but might reread there just to be sure.

The main focus of my overnight read was Day 1 and I feel there's plenty of reasons to look at camn and Benmage.

camn

camn's 147 is a bit pointless and cherry-picking. 60 posts have come since her last offering and it's composed only of non-alignment-related hydrastyle and a line of questioning to SAD that I simply don't believe she believes in. camn really pushes the post restriction thing past the point of sensibility. I mean, really? Who fakes a generic "street talk" post restriction in a Wire themed game where nobody else is doing the same? Why does camn make this almost the only thing she talks about for several key early pages? She has more sense than that.

Zdenek's 623 & 624 are delicious anti-camn moments, with 670 hammering it home.

With camn's multiple WIFOMy insistences of "oh I'll bus anyone however hard" I have no trouble buying that she saw weakness in her buddy absta and decided to crush him like a bug.

Oh, and you know who makes a great point about camn? absta in 725. and camn just tells him to "tighten up his questions" to discredit his line of attack, confident that she'll soon force his flip and therefore make it harder for town to later push the same valid point.

Then there's all the succession of bullshit she throws at people all game, as discussed at length yesterday.

Benmage

TheGreatestAmericanHero votes Benmage in his first post - if the traitor knew the whole scumteam, this makes me want to vote Benmage. Scum are psychologically more likely to "randomly" vote a buddy because from their POV it becomes a direct choice between voting a buddy and not voting a buddy, a 50-50 rather than just going after whoever like town. It's a point against Benmage.

Benmage's 39: "Yes we are against the cops." - see I'm pretty sure that the natural response here is to say "yes, the cops are the scum" or "Barksdale is town, police is scum". He goes out of his way to say "we". I think you have to do that deliberately.

I could definitely see his 138 as a buddy interaction.

Benmage picks absta up on functional issues like where he is in his catchup and addressing his jason townread as too subjective - feels kinda like a safe interaction.

absta's 900 is begging for the "one-in-three" treatment. Out of Ben, DV and Cerulean I think Ben is clearly the likelier pick (for being at the top of the list as well as scumminess).

-------------------

VOTE: camn

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, you've convinced me on DV's claim. I would be prepared to lynch him today.

I still think camn is unlikely to be partnered to absta though -- she would bus him, maybe, but I don't think he'd bus her ).

If scum do have daytalk, I daresay camn encouraged it.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm against compromising to a Jason lynch because I'm pretty sure he's town, plus my two top scumreads want it to happen. I would switch my vote to Benmage or DeasVail if necessary, nobody else.

[ChannelDelibird]

Distinction makes sense although I'm happy to admit that I have not been entertaining the possibility of further non-town factions after Nostredeus's flip and Cerulean's claim. I don't see any reason to doubt the Jason-is-not-Police read and I don't see any reason to disagree with Sottyrulez's townread on him. Thus, not lynching him.

[ChannelDelibird]

Just waiting on the signal to switch to DV or Benmage if needs be. Apologies if there's not a lot in between; I'm pretty set at this stage. I increasingly believe that apathetically slipping into a Jason lynch is exactly what the scum want.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm pretty sure someone has mentioned it before,

Nope.

but how he went about suspecting me after my claim, and then continuing to do so after my explanation was weird.

How? What?

[ChannelDelibird]

Meh. I didn't consider all the implications (probably because I was just waiting to post my overnight analysis which had been put off by massclaim), Pless did, put it across well, made sense, I agreed. Makes sense to me.

[ChannelDelibird]

This is a very good question (I'm pretty sure you said the case on CDB looked "reasonable" on day 2 though ). I'm definitely struggling to remember why I was persuaded CDB looked town. On a reread, he looks pretty bad. He got talkative when it looked like he was going to be the lynch, and people seemed to get cold feet, but the day 2 case on him still makes sense to me. And since then he's done nothing that makes me read him as town. His current attitude really feels off, too.

Yes, I got particularly talkative when I was trying to stop myself being lynched. This should not be a surprise. I've said what I needed to since to make my cases and explain my point of view. What haven't I been saying since then that I should? I've made clear how I feel and done the work to justify it.

I don't think that my attitude is that weird - yes, we've lynched a bunch of town players but I'm not going to have a crisis of confidence about it. I'm happy with my townreads and, frankly, I don't see why you should have a problem with that given that you have pretty much exactly the same set of townreads. That's why I'm working on PoE and I went back overnight to make sure I was on the right track. I think, given the evidence, that I am.

(Actually,

CDB

- looking at your iso, your suspicions of Benmage today kind of come out of nowhere. You've repeatedly town-read Benmage up until today. On day 2 you were "happy to assume he was town". On day 3 you claimed to reread him and decided he was a "reasonably solid town read". But then suddenly on day 4 you're "very confident" Benmage is scum and urge us to "blaze through this with PoE"? I just don't see where that came from -- you'd already read Benmage multiple times, apparently, and this time you decided you were "very confident" your previous reads had been completely wrong? Please explain more about why you reread day 1 and what exactly you were looking for when you did so.)

IIRC, I was "happy to assume Benmage is town" because he was the first person Zdenek targeted - there wasn't really much happening around Benmage at the time so I pretty much filed the two of them away together under "deal with this later". It probably should have been more of a "happy to not even consider for lynching atm" than "assume is town" but didn't really matter at the time.

You'll notice that I have been periodically rereading certain people to "refresh" my read on them because I'd forgotten why I had them down in my notes as whatever read. Benmage was pretty much one of those - last night it became clear that he was one of those I'd have to take a closer look at given my stronger townreads and the fact that he wasn't just there to corroborate Zdenek any more.

I'm pretty sure I hadn't read Benmage very often compared to others - I'd be interested to see where you got this idea from. I've always been clear about who my next rereads are intended to be and when exactly I've got round to carrying out those reads. Benmage definitely hadn't had much attention from me before last night.

As for specifically why "the main focus of my read was Day 1", my intention was to reread the whole game but I got stuck at the end of Night 1 because of time/getting distracted etc. Plus at that point I had plenty of evidence that made sense with my current read of the game - i.e. camn and Benmage as scum.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hang on, just checked my own iso and found out why you thought I'd reread Benmage more frequently.

Can't really be arsed to finish my iso but basically, Benmage is a reasonably solid townread, particularly if camn is scum.

I haven't kept the notes I made from this read, annoyingly, and I'm not sure why I came to this conclusion at the time. I wish I had a better answer for you than that.

[ChannelDelibird]

But let me be clear about this: I am absolutely not going to let you people lynch me in this game. I have done too much work and put too much into it. Camn, who could apparently "obviously get behind" my lynch despite admitting things like "has been playing better" today and "CDB has persuaded me he might be town" yesterday, knows I've put the effort in and is having to fake a scumread while putting in the requisite respect for my effort so that she can apologise about it when I flip. I don't know why I read Benmage as town before but I sure as hell know why I read him as town now. Pless, for someone who's just read me over and gone "I don't know why I thought this was town before", you have to understand that that happens.

[ChannelDelibird]

EBWOP:" sure as hell know why I read him as SCUM now."

[ChannelDelibird]

Pless, when the Equinox and Nost flips happened at the end of yesterday, I looked at my list of remaining reads and figured something was wrong. Benmage, being someone I couldn't really remember why I had a townread on, was someone I realised I had to reread. Hence the Day 1 reread and when I began to seriously suspect him.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm pretty sure I hadn't read Benmage very often compared to others - I'd be interested to see where you got this idea from.

Um. I got it from your day 3 posts? The ones I linked to, even.

Yep, sorry, skimmed your post a bit in the haste to respond to the first sentence.

[ChannelDelibird]

But let me be clear about this: I am absolutely not going to let you people lynch me in this game. I have done too much work and put too much into it.

Is that meant to be a town-tell? Or are you seriously saying "you can't lynch me because I'm trying s

o hard

"?

~ Pless

To be honest, it is supposed to be some kind of deliberate town-tell. It's how I feel, and it's something I was thinking about saying last time my wagon happened, but it is a bit forced. Obviously if you want to lynch me, I can't stop you, but I've rarely been this invested in a game as this and I intend to fight as hard as I can to stop me from being mislynched. It's probably something I should have kept in my own head, I guess, because it [actually stopping this sentence right here because WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM it's not healthy]

[ChannelDelibird]

But (according to the day 3 posts of yours I quoted last page), you'd only just reread him a week or so before these flips .

And the fact that I couldn't remember even at that point why I had a townread on him probably says something for how town he is, I guess. I'm really sorry but I can't offer you any answer that will realistically make this make sense to you; I don't remember doing that Day 3 reread of Benmage or why I came to the conclusions that I drew from it.

Especially since you say you didn't even reread beyond the first half of the game this time.

Solid townreads elsewhere + Day 1 strongly indicates that my PoE scumreads are correct = Less motivation to reread rest of game.

[ChannelDelibird]

Why are you implying that my "easy attack" on you is about activity?

[ChannelDelibird]

No. I'm not explaining to you why you're scum. I've already explained my suspicions to everyone else and you're welcome to read up on them if you like.

[ChannelDelibird]

UNVOTE: camn, VOTE: Benmage

[ChannelDelibird]

I didn't link to the post in question because a) as I said, I think it benefits nobody for me to argue about why I think Benmage is scum to Benmage (what am I supposed to do, convince him?) and b) I was about to leave the house to catch a train. I'd estimate the weighting of importance of these two things to be about 70-30 in favour of a).

I have absolutely no idea what to make of Benmage's self-vote post. I've never seen anything like it before. It seems like a gigantic, GIGANTIC overreaction. I just don't understand how it would get that explosive, that quickly.

More in a moment.

[ChannelDelibird]

Much like your (apparently deliberate) needling of camn on day 3, I really don't understand the need for this confrontational tone. And I don't understand why you're so reluctant to explain your cases more than once, or to bother rereading the whole game, yet at the same time insist you've invested loads in the game and consequently will "refuse" to be lynched. This is not a pro-town attitude.

This Benmage thing and camn are different. In camn's case, it was pretty much 50-50 between telling camn to shut the fuck up with her bullshit tells and showing everyone else what a terrible thing her suspicion of me was based on. I was pissed off then. This time, as I said just above, I just don't think there's any benefit to trying to convince my scumread that he's scum.

If Benmage wants to read what I think of him, it's not far back in my iso and is clearly labelled with the word

Benmage

in bold. My case isn't addressing him, it's addressing everyone else because they're the people who need to be convinced. If someone other than my scumread wants me to explain my case again or re-word it for clarity or something like that, that's fine, I'll do it. My scumread asking me for something like that makes me think they're looking for an opportunity to weasel out of it if I use different wording to try to make the point.

Is there something more to your case on Benmage than the above and "PoE"?

Not really, otherwise I'd've posted it. I'd still rather lynch camn first, frankly. Again, I don't know why this should be a surprise. Our townreads match almost exactly; other than general "we lynched badly" paranoia what I'm saying should be making sense to you.

Exactly how much is sotty's read on Jason influencing your current Jason read?

It's more of a confirmation to me that the townread gained from the absta interaction is right.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB, you can't very well invoke your effort put in when your best effort comes while being run up the flagpole. I mean at least Jason doesn't give a damn even when he's being voted.

I wouldn't normally reread anything overnight and would have made my excuses to do it at the start of today, wasting a couple of days reluctantly going over things then if this were most other games. I wouldn't have gone back through camn's iso to pull up every fucking reason why she's been so terrible when I did in most other games, I just would have lurked even more because it was annoying me. Yes, my being run up kickstarted me into action but the sustained level of input afterward is significantly more than I usually give. Maybe you have to play with me a lot to understand this; I appreciate that this point continues to delve into me asking you to trust me on my own meta, so I'll try not to push it any further than this. But, y'know,

fucking trust me on it

.

[ChannelDelibird]

hmm.
Interesting turn of events.

NO counterwagon? I cant tell if that bothers me or reassures me.

tum-te-tum-tum, skating on by

[ChannelDelibird]

<snipping stuff to which I've basically already responded - CDB>

At the same time, the day 1 links with absta and TGAH haven't gone away.

This remains my response.

And I'm not happy with the fact he keeps going back to sotty as a reason to town-read Jason (since sotty gave up that town-read on day 2, which is something CDB definitely knew about and yet now ignores entirely).

This is me acknowledging this point and, like my magical disappearing Benmage reread, not having a good answer for it short of "I'd really forgotten that that had happened". Still think Jason's a bad lynch today based on absta interaction, though.

[ChannelDelibird]

Might have got the two confused.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm here and have been reading - I'm just pretty cards-on-table at the moment. You know where I stand; I haven't had anything to add to it. Didn't realise I was getting to be in prod territory. Just reading the newer posts...

[ChannelDelibird]

Cerulean - the main issue I'd like to take with your big post there is the same issue that I've been taking all game with people discussing my early-game Jason read. My scumread on him did

not

suddenly appear on Day 2 - it was already something that I was nursing...

I'd be very strongly considering a vote on Jason but Sotty and Zach have never given me reason to doubt their reads on him.

But the fact that it was Day 1 and Sottyrulez had a declared townread made pursuing that particular ping of the scumdar at that time look like a less wise idea.

[ChannelDelibird]

So, to be absolutely clear: I will vote for either Benmage, camn, or DeasVail today (with a preference to the first two). DV seems to be floundering under Pless's interrogation; I agree that his stated mindset looks incongruous with his actions.

[ChannelDelibird]

Sorry for getting my read on you so wrong, camn, but yeah ... scumtells.

Thanks Faraday - I enjoyed playing in this game very much.

[ChannelDelibird]

Though I will say, the Traitor faked hydra dissonance, and both
Jason and Ben used RL excuses!

So did town players, which was the point all along...