/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Nacho

Nacho's

always

scum.

ugh you had to ruin such a perfect playerlist

Vote: Shadoweh

[Nachomamma8]

Whoa, hold on Tierce? You're buying that? Because that just made him go from meh to scum on my list.

then why are you voting penguin?

Empire is town...most likely. I'll be able to tell for sure after an effort post, but first thought is he would be too self-conscious to call himself obvtown, especially in a game with me and tierce and regfan waiting to replace in if necessary. And I doubt he'd bother to be posting in between classes as scum, he'd be far more likely to just put it off.

this is a little ridiculous
a little arrogant
a little town

Does Tammy normally overreact like this?

yup.

Johog, why are you singling out penguin_alien for lurking?

I'm not. But I'm voting him, and I don't want to see him escape by me unvoting him just because he's not showing up.

You don't want to see her escape by you unvoting her.
How is she escaping, exactly?

Unvote, Vote: Johhog

ben let's go here

[Nachomamma8]

(mostly tonal differences, I think he's a lot more detached and emotionless as scum).

Good catch. I've been working to fix this in my scum game lately, but that's the weakest part of it, I think.

So you can confidentally read nearly half the playerlist but you're swimming for reads?

This question is bad because he sort of explained this already.

You're both missing the point. I don't want lurking to be rewarding. I don't think you should be able to deflect suspicion simply by not answering. Now penguin_alien has posted, and as I have a stronger scum read I'm happy with changing my vote.

I saw the reasoning you gave. I don't buy it.

I guess I'll dig around for meta.

meta to see if tierce is a sucker for V/LA excuses...?
also what made DV's excuse so fake to you?

Nacho posts less as scum.

this isn't true anymore, llamarble
do you really think i have trouble posting shit after white flag?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, what do you think of Johhog's sudden unvote? It seems like he just wasn't paying attention, since I'm pretty sure I mentioned how I'd seen CTD massclaim before a couple of times, and I think he would maybe be more likely to pay attention as scum? Or at least put more effort into making sure what he was saying was backed up.

Not necessarily. I tend to think that mistakes are mistakes and not really indicative of alignment. I do think that him not reading your responses while he was voting penguin for lurking follows pretty nicely with my Johhog as scum train though.

maybe Penguin, but I don't think that's anything more than gut

I don't think penguin is scum, and I think her playstyle sets off gut like crazy. She doesn't post a whole lot, meaning that people who are paranoid about lurkers freak out, and she walls pretty hard, meaning people have a larger tendency to treat her essays and skim them, meaning that they are afraid they won't be able to read her. Criticizing you for not committing enough was a fine point; picking out CES for coasting was something I expected her to do but less likely to do as scum because of no one yelling at him for it, and the Llamarble vote is also for reasoning that I can see her picking up on. Her being "eh, don't really know what's going on" and not being at all concerned about the votes on her is A+ good and not what I expected if she was scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Huh?

bad excuses, not V/LA excuses.

[Nachomamma8]

You say you read ny160b (which some at the end of the game said was underpowered anyway) and still say nacho is always scum?

I mean that's fine for an rvs vote, but 10 pages in?

wait you actually believe him when he says things like this?

What would you expect if she was scum?

not a wagon hop, instead an attack on CES/N where it's nice and safe and she feels she can out-rhetoric the opposition.

[Nachomamma8]

because i hate australians.

[Nachomamma8]

because i hate australians.

</3

deasvail
you know i could never even pretend to hate you

Elaborate.

Well hi! That was a fast catch. In the last two games we've played together where you've been town, you've felt really dynamic. Here you feel like your watching the party more than enjoying it. I'm only on page 3...4...do you get better?

I'm aware of this. But think this one through. Does me playing differently necessarily mean that I'm scum?

not necessarily, no
but if you are town, you'd make this game a lot easier if you stopped watching and started playing

Lack of absolute contribution to the game. N-scum feels fairly detached from the game, while N-Town might be snarky, but is definitely willing to provide reads in a proactive manner and without going with the flow, which is what he's doing.

It's too early for you to be attacking N for playing to his troll scum meta. He does this as town as well; the difference is that he actually steps it the fuck up as town when he gets something he cares about. I seriously doubt that N is going to play in an invitational with a playerlist like this and expect to get away with doing nothing.

I've noticed in quite a few of my games I've alienated people and gotten myself mislynched, so I'm trying a new thing. I'm not sure what you're exactly expecting from me (have you gotten my meta mixed up with someone else's?), but I can go through the whole thread and make snarky comments if you'd like?

go through the entire thread and make snarky comments to everyone

Also, I get the feeling that if I were CES, I'd be townreading Llamarble right now. Meh.

?

[Nachomamma8]

He kinda is trying to get away with doing nothing so far though.

So far, sure. But a casual start is a casual start; it's not worth the wagon he currently has on him.

Opinion on CTD, lynch yes/no/maybe?

yes. but not now.

My impression of N is different? I remember in Black Flag he was outing reads and stuff but mostly just attacking easy targets, was rather lurkerish, and had a hard time dealing with the stronger players in the room (for example, he spent most of the game tunneling/getting into a huge fight with JesseSheffield) so I think it would make sense for Nscum to have a hard time producing content with this strong of a roster.

Exactly. How is that anything like the N we're seeing here? He's taunting Tierce, flagrantly dismissing major wagons, not tunneling at all.....

Team Mafia was such a perfect storm. I don't expect a game with that high a rhetoric:scumhunting ratio to come around for me for a while.

Benmage, the change that 'marble mentioned predates this game (see norlkaz) so it's not a tell.

Am I seeing things or is this what a CES towntell looks like?

Anyone?

(I want to be the first to claim this marvelous discovery if true.)

If you see something in here, I'll be impressed.

I vote Johhog and say it's partly because he feels different from when he was town.

He says there could be a reason for that.

Votes someone else for the same reason. >_>

COUGH COUGH COUCH COUGH

A developing wagon on him should be something to care about.

Not if it's founded on bullshit. No one cares about cases on bullshit because they don't feel like they've done anything wrong when they are lynched.

Your case against me is terrible and your quality of scumhunting/post count ratio is abysmal. Please let me know if you're planning on continuing to tunnel me so I can ignore you for the time being. Kthxbai.

Why do you think Shadoweh is town?

bm, ces, ctd, dv, nacho, pa, shadoweh, vi

explain johhog and llamarble townreads, please.

I MIGHT CHANGE MY MIND FOR A SONG THOUGH.

both wagons are on people I feel I can read decently, given time
can we start a counterwagon on CTD/johhog, please?

[Nachomamma8]

I said he wasn't today's lynch initially. I changed my mind throughout the course of that post.

Unvote, Vote: CTD

[Nachomamma8]

N has failed to contribute anything of worth to the proceedings for the majority of the day (up until his wagon started). He did voice weak support for the Llamarble wagon or a Johhog wagon, but he did not do so with his vote, electing instead to sit pretty on a useless Nachovote. He refused to take a stance on the penguin wagon.

Why does any of this make him scum?

There was actually a decided spike in activity from him ever since he has come under attack, he seemed to have cared quite a lot about this "bullshit case". His contributions continue to be shallow though. There is no evidence that his vote on me is anything but OMGUS, and the same goes for the rest of his suspicions (sans Nacho).

Of course there was a spike in activity from him when people started giving him more things to respond to; that doesn't mean he gives a shit about the wagon on him. There is no evidence that his vote on you is anything but OMGUS, but that doesn't matter as far as his alignment is concerned. Why do you think he sprung for you instead of the penguin wagon? Do you think he's afraid to bus?

He has refused to answer more than one direct request for reads he claims to have.

Why do this as scum?

You are clearly paying a lot of attention.

Why do you treat Shadoweh like she's misguided town in that quote? Why aren't you voting her?

[Nachomamma8]

a useless Nachovote

scumbuddies

help me bus my partner then

[Nachomamma8]

oh wait nevermind

[Nachomamma8]

thank god your username is N, huh?

[Nachomamma8]

I think Johhog is town because he doesn't seem to care about how he is perceived. The ignorance of valid questions is annoying but doesn't seem like a scumtell for him in this case- I think he would answer the questions as scum. I also think his response to Tierce when she unvoted DV looked genuine.

I have no idea how you see Johhog as "doesn't care how he's perceived". He seems to absolutely love that you called him town, though.

Llamarble looks like town because of his reads and justification for those reads. He pointed out things which I had also used to read some other players. I didn't necessarily agree with everything he's said, but I don't get the impression that he's 'faking' anything. E.g. his early scumread on CTD- the point regarding the link didn't make sense to me, but I have a hard time imagining him coming up with it as mafia.

Do you have any reasoning that isn't gut?

If all the people bolded could do something productive with their lives it would be most appreciated.

That's exactly what I'm doing, staying out of this thread.

Wickedestjr is sooo town it burns. I could get behind a CTD lynch though. I think he's pretty clearly trying to stay out of the limelight by asking pseudo-scumhunting questions, that hardly can be used to actually lure out the scum.

UNVOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum
VOTE: CrashTextDummie

this hop doesn't make my wagon feel as good as I want it to.
do you normally bus as scum, Johhog?

What do you make of the fact that he seemingly changed up his playstyle in this game for purely survivalistic reasons? He claims that his lack of actions are designed to keep him from getting lynched, which serves a scum-agenda a lot more than it does a town-agenda.

I think that it's an honest and townish way to frame the playstyle change. When Fate changed his playstyle for Team Mafia, he framed the change as something that was more like "I'm doing this because it will help people read me easier since this is a hard-mode game". N's change came about as more "I'm changing it up because people lynch me a lot and I don't want that to happen so easily here". Yeah, not getting lynched has more benefit to scum than town, but it still has a pretty good benefit to town as well.

Of course it matters as far as his alignment is concerned. He has zero legitimate suspects on page 22 of D1. Zero. He is not scumhunting. As for your questions, I'd be surprised at this point if penguin-alien flipped scum.

You seem like a pretty legitimate suspect for him. Who are Vi's legitimate suspects on Page 22 of D1?

[Nachomamma8]

Vi is not being fluffy enough. Benvolio is a terrible pick for Benmage. Plus, that means he survives, and

yuck

.

I was about to ask a cool question, then the votecount turned it into a boring question. So you get another boringish question as I ignore Messieurs Quote Stripes CrashTextMamma8. Tammy, the hot date with Big Blue should be over by now--thoughts on the wagons?

why do you ignore me?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm back! And after I make food, this game is my top priority. I'll have something nice before I go to sleep.

[Nachomamma8]

Vi is not being fluffy enough. Benvolio is a terrible pick for Benmage. Plus, that means he survives, and

yuck

.

I was about to ask a cool question, then the votecount turned it into a boring question. So you get another boringish question as I ignore Messieurs Quote Stripes CrashTextMamma8. Tammy, the hot date with Big Blue should be over by now--thoughts on the wagons?

why do you ignore me?

Because you're all NachoofIllusion and it's boring and I'm V/LA in Paris. Is there anything I should be looking at, abridged version? I thought you were pretty studiously ignoring my presence in the game and was having no trouble returning the favor, at least for Today.

I was hoping you'd glance at what I've said about N so far

Ok, I know this isn't addressed at me but stuff like this is making me twitch to the point where I have to respond here. There are two obvious problems with this: 1) N's apparent is intended to obfuscate not clarify, so the Fate analogy makes no sense here, and 2) it makes zero sense to take up a playstyle change that, for pretty much any roster, is more likely to get you lynched, not less -- so that playstyle shift does not seem genuine to me at all and likely borne out of scum finding it hard to bullshit reads

1) Fate shifted his style to wall of text shit, which he knew people probably wouldn't be able to read thanks to all of his meta being geared around the normal Fate meta, but covered it up by stating that "oh, I'm making myself easier to read!". N stated that he is shifting his style because he gets mislynched a lot and alienates himself early, wants to try something new out. He did not state motivation for why he chose this specific game, only that he wanted to switch up his playstyle. Saying that he is trying something new doesn't have any clear motivations for a town player, and N not bringing up fake town motivations to justify his specific switch tells me that he's not providing that information as an avenue for someone to townread him by (notice that his defense to Tierce's accusation is "you don't know my meta" as opposed to using the playstyle shift as a defense), but instead as a bit of a "my play probably won't fit into either meta later".

2) A playstyle change that makes you more likely to get lynched is a shitty playstyle change for town and scum, yeah. I think that it's within his ability as scum to fake

anything

, and what you're seeing here is not N-scum flailing in a desperate attempt to create something because he's that horrible as scum. In fact, I'm fairly confident that most players here, the very newest newbies included, can create something along the lines of actual reasoning, so "he can't think of anything to bring up, but he can think to pretend to be making a playstyle shift which can cover up for his inability to make up reasoning completely!" is a shit attack that you definitely shouldn't be making at this point.

Don't feel like going there, and part of this is because I have a working town read on CES and he's got opposition to the wagon.

What's the other reason you wouldn't feel like going here?

He also committed one of my favorite scum tells, in as much as I believe in scum tells, in Post 407. I did have this happen to me once.

>.>
It wasn't a wall of reads that N lost; it was a wall of snark, spurred by Shadoweh and me telling him to post one. There's a very big difference in between walls of reads and walls of snark.

My knee jerk reaction was to talk to you on aim about how ridiculous it was that he thinks you're scum. It just really speaks to the fact that I can't follow N's thought process at all. But, it's probably because it's just not a town thought process.

Or probably because you know Empire well enough to know how town he looks right now, while N really doesn't know him as well so the jump on his wagon without prior reasoning and pushing on it without the genuineness of Tierce instead looks like scum bulldogging?

The fact that CES is doing more than trolling per 583 comes as a legitimate surprise to me.

This post felt like the first non-fluff post of the game, and it's mostly defense, a little posturing for a CES attack. Why bother, given your current level of interest in the game?

...yeah, most of the stuff I already said.

"his reads and justification to those reads" - Which reads, what justification?
"Pointed out things which I used to read other players" - What does this have to do with anything?
"I don't get the impression he's 'faking' anything" - Why does something that doesn't make sense to you make it hard to fake?

Ok, I'm as updated as I can be with my reads and still support a Penguin lynch.

Could we get something more than this?

Oh and for my fellow tinfoil theorists out there, it's very likely that N and penguin are scum together (see: penguin's abrupt 180 stance on N, N's awkward reaction to her vote, and his seemingly willful refusal to give a read on her despite pointing out that her vote was bad).

Then you should have no problem reading penguin, correct?

...N explicitly says he's attempting to play differently than his past style, and your conclusion is that he's playing like he did in the past? And the "not saying why" is really shady.

Many people have said this before. How is someone calling him town the first time you pick up on this?

The best part is that he apparently wants to compare an Empire Town game to the current one when there are LOTS of finished Empire Town games, in hydras or alone (recent ones, too!), but no, this ongoing is too precious. And I'm shutting up at this point because modkills are bad things.

there is an obvious reason for this
a very obvious reason

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: penguin_alien

Once the remnants of the CTD wagon move over, things should be 8 and 8 with Benmage holding the hammer, and I'd be pretty happy with that.

Deas, what's been going on with you lately?

[Nachomamma8]

I want them! I'm working on getting mine into something solid right now, so you wouldn't be alone if you decided to post them early.

[Nachomamma8]

I thought I needed to flip the Looks Town switch.

I could gather this much, but why?

[Nachomamma8]

I thought I needed to flip the Looks Town switch.

I could gather this much, but why?

The point of :moveslikedutchie: is to be invisible; by that point I saw that I wasn't.

I also give up on things too easily, probably. :/

This makes sense.

[Nachomamma8]

First of all, some of the paranoid bits against Benmage being more "protown" as scum is stupid and bullshit, but I like his response. He played around a bit promoting paranoia of his amazing scum game, but took careful means to shut down that angle and pointed out that he could roll as town just like he could roll as scum. The response to Vi avoiding his reach-out in post in #186 is genuine as hell and pretty would be my response to something like that happening, so that's a strong point for Benmage being town. He's also gone hard after not-easy targets (Empire early, Vi, Tierce), which, considering the wagon setup right now, reassures me a bit although scumBenmage could probably get away with attacking those targets in a way that no one else could.

CES seems fine so far although the penguin-N-Vi scumteam doesn't really feel like something that's anywhere close to valid to me, but that's fine for now. The exchanges with Vi (with Vi's response being "oh, CES isn't trolling right now!") feel doubleplusgood to me, so he's a townread for me at the moment.

As far as CTD goes, I really don't like how his votes seem to be the last thing he focuses on. Given his concern for forming strong wagons, he should be willing to put himself behind the N wagon, but it feels more like a policy lynch than an actual "strong wagon". His attack on Johhog makes me a bit uneasy, considering it's a chainsaw of the CES, who is reading him as strong town. His positions also feel fairly safe (I want a strong D1 wagon, that's why I'm going after an easy target, you're tunneling too hard for me to deal with you anymore, so that's why I'm not going to respond to you anymore), but the way that he responds to me as if he can't believe that I'm finding N as town read genuine, although the AtE at the end of the post (if I get apathy lynched again, I'm going to freak!) is stupid and is something I do off-site to get the most mileage out of stupid mislynches as scum. His reads outside of this are not so bad so I would like to see how he plays when he's not pushing a utility lynch, but still leaning scum for now.

I like DV's play so far, although I expect I'll have a more solid read on him after he posts his reads. I like his N read although that's probably biased from us having the same thought process, and I like the paranoid response to Empire/Tierce attacking him for RVS. I don't like later jump off N, but it comes at a time that doesn't really serve a purpose as scum unless N is scum and he's trying to distance, which I seriously doubt since he's still putting penguin as scum higher than N and he's handing the cred for the change in his read to Empire pretty easily.

A lot of Empire's play is really fucking convenient for scum which means that I'm going to keep a close watch on him despite this being a far cry from what his scumgame looked like in the Masquerade game and Rarefaction, which I glanced through but didn't read intensively because it's late as fuck. There's also the strong townreads from Tierce & Tammy, who make him uncomfortable and can catch him when he is off his scumgame, but probably won't when he breaks through the wall. Currently, he's pushing on someone who fooled him before and also someone who Tierce is pushing mightily hard, scum flips give more cred and townflips won't really hurt him that badly. Tierce and Tammy are both blatantly strong townreads for him, and CES is in the unreadable slot, as per the usual. Don't really think that he's scum with Vi thanks to Vi subtly discrediting him with the "Activity Overview" comment.

Johhog voting penguin because he doesn't want "lurking to be rewarding" is bullshit at its best, and him missing DV stating that he played with CTD before is actually horrible in retrospect. Note that in post #59 he states that he could vote for DV and in post #60 DV says that he has played with CTD before pretty clearly. Johhog missing that pretty much immediately shows that he didn't bother reading the thread after the setup of DV as his next vote. Him also withholding his DV reasoning until AFTER penguin posted seemed off to me; he's claiming that lurking takes away all of the fun, but he uses a lurker's absence as an excuse to fluff and post shit for as long as possible. There's all of the crap reasoning of "you feel different, scum." and "you feel different, town.", not to mention the "N being town, could vote penguin" read to "oh, penguin is just a tiny bit scummier than N" after being questioned by CTD to make him a slam-dunk sort of scumread at this point. AND THE PROMISE TO META TIERCE THAT NEVER FELL THROUGH.

Konowa's interactions with Tierce are townish, particularly the whole "I know how I am perceived, and so I exploited that to strengthen a read on someone" bit which is just genuine, just creative enough for it to be a hard-to-fake reason. I also like how his effort-post responses only come after he finds the validity of something: see "oh, i see where you're finding a problem with that, Empire" (#487). He hasn't posted enough for me to get a good read on him, but he's not in the purge area right now.

I hate how much Llamarble "towninating" has become such a point of discussion in reading him. The pressure to "towninate" early is more pressure on someone that allows them to actually "towninate" and I feel play suffers when you're expected to do something amazing and fantastic right the fuck out of the gate. I understand his frustration based on this, I like the promise that he's "getting closer", and the quick bounce from penguin-CTD-penguin felt genuine. My problem is that the activate: towninate in #194 was pretty underwhelming and seemed like an attempt to towninate early that fell flat on its head, and I don't like his recent backtracking on N thanks to the status of the people pushing on him, but #524 doesn't seem like a scum post at all if Llama still rereads whenever he says he does. There's something about him posting the results of two rereads in one go "since he was prodded", and switching the read on CTD based on something that he came up a little while earlier and let sit for a little while. It's transparent to the point that it makes me think that he might be faking it in an overboard "look at my thought process it is so town" sort of way, but this doesn't necessarily make sense with him continually saying that he isn't towninating, since it makes people disregard his now posts a little and instead focus on things he's making later. So town.

I had an earlier townread on penguin_alien, but it's not really holding up now. I don't really like how she pushed a scumread on N for claiming to change up his style and not even noticing that no, he wasn't really succumbing to people's demand, and no, he wasn't even being a little bit reasonable. And if we want to talk about "having trouble faking reasons" meta, penguin's fitting pretty fucking cleanly into that sort of meta. She's usually very thorough as both alignments and ends up posting walls like candy and very rarely succumbs to non-walls, but her latest posting amounts to nothing more than "hi, let's lynch N!". It doesn't feel like she's adding anything new to the thread, and her tendency as scum to attack easy targets aligns with her not finding much to attack here. There's also the problem of her finding N's scum read on me serious, considering the reasoning he's given so far is "Nacho is

always

scum", which seems obviously incorrect to me and came before #504. So, she's actually a better lynch than I thought she was!

Shadoweh seems pretty fucking town so far to me. Her first couple of posts made me uncomfortable, but I found her push on Empire for being less-than-confident about reading people this game genuine, I dig the "everyone is ignoring me" vibe in #200, I like the way she treats the Vi/Tierce interaction, and the CTD attack was sexy and the way he handled her afterwards and her reaction look pretty good for her. She feels like she is trying to get a nice towncrew together and keeping people up on their shit without actually trying to squirm her way inside, which is pretty cool. There's also a small thing in her reference to ADWD that I liked (she gets lazy when the people she likes dies/when people stop watching her), which is a genuine thing to say as town, but one of those things that make people who have not played with her more paranoid of her when she survives past the people she buddies up to, and the people she is buddying up to become more paranoid even if they like her posting. Plus #431 is probably the best post of the game because it's hilarious.

I liked that Tammy defended herself against overreacting, although many players in the game consider that to be typical town tammy. I liked her double-downing extra sure to reassure me that her arrogance wasn't misplaced. The "what the fuck, I already towninated?" bit against Empire was genuine as hell and ballsy and unecessary as scum and works well with empire-scum possibility. The "I'm uncomfortable reading you, gonna read you anyways" is also shutting down an avenue she could've easily taken as scum for no reason, the YOU AIN'T GOT SHIT AGAINST ME is strong as fuck and a challenge to make as scum and suddenly makes it seem strange that Empire didn't pick that up later. The "I want to vote for her, but it feels unfair" is not something I think scum would use to distance from a scumbuddy or a town lynch. There's a lot of gut in here and not as much reasoning, but the fact that doing an ISO on her strengthened an Empire scumread and didn't really produce anything that stands out for her being scum makes her look pretty good.

Tierce looks town. The attack on Konowa mid-voting DV is the puzzle piece that the Johhog town puzzle was missing, the whole "I've seen scumDV fight against me lynching the fuck out of him before" was pretty good, and the constant, constant, constant aggression is something that I've often wanted to emulate as scum but never really managed to get the hang of before. The flagrant refusal to read Vi is also not something I think Tierce would want to flaunt about as scum since it's something that's going to draw her a lot of unnecessary attention, and the whole push of N is sticking her neck too far out for not a good enough lynch. I don't see why she would push a mislynch this hard, and I don't see why she would bus N this hard, considering it won't be enough in the way of cred for her to avoid all of the townies in this game that can read her. In short, I feel what Tierce said in #381 is fairly accurate and that her breakthrough game wouldn't be played like this.

Vi's play is interesting and I have called him a her for so long that I refuse to use the proper(?) pronoun ever, but I will say that she has recently thrown me for a bit of a loop. Play in regards to CES was making sense for a scumVi, with subtle discrediting here and there, small potshots that never really mattered, but her cryptic response to me is something that I didn't really expect and is something that I might be creating town motivation for, but also something that's going to get tabled for tomorrow because tomorrow will bring good things on that front based on who dies.

Wicked's play so far has been a big bag of "eh". There's a lot of promises, "sorry I'm not playing good enough", "I'm so busy" that I would expect from scum returning to a playerlist like this. I mean, every post he makes comes with the caveat of "I don't know enough people here, I'm behind" and it wears me down. Post #484 doesn't make sense for Wicked if he was lost, and letting a lot of those reads drop to the wayside doesn't make sense, and his reasoning for the townreads he has are shit. Not arguing with Vi-scum cases and instead pulling the whole "oh, what's the chance Vi gets lynched today?" card is bad, the "I'm unvoting but he's STILL MY TOP SUSPECT" is framed like a defense as opposed to "I'm unvoting because NO ONE WILL LYNCH HIM (shadoweh)", the "every vote is opportunistic" attack on penguin is stupid considering she's made 2 votes so far, and wanting his townread N to claim as opposed to the person he's trying to lynch penguin to claim is similarly bad. So there's a whole lot of and not a lot of .

[Nachomamma8]

so...
wicked-empire-johhog is my favorite call, I think
with maybe scums in penguin, CTD, Vi

[Nachomamma8]

This is not me just going in :justice: mode about it, it's that his play fits much more scum being bitter at drawing scum with this playerlist

See, I don't really think that N would be bitter to draw scum at this playerlist; I think he would view it as a change to improve. Look at his commentary on Black Flag Nightless in his Wiki.

He's yet to answer any kind of questions regarding reasoning for his reads, and what he has on Empire is "he's just posting one-liners"

Last time I saw N making an inaccurate meta read, he was reading me as scum in a newbie game for posting too much, which was horribly, horribly wrong and easy to refute. I don't think N would push an inaccurate meta read as scum, but I do think N would push something like this as town.

I think your N townread is naive. I urge you to read NY 160 - Regfan and I misread N hard there because we applied way too low of a standard for him so a lot of the fake noob tells like him asking what an encryptor was and the bare minimum effort he gave seemed obvtown. He's doing a lot of the same shit here and he's being given way too much of a free pass for it. I've read games where he's town and he's frankly capable of far more proactive scumhunting than he has been in here and his scum games. The playstyle shift doesn't seem like a genuine excuse for me because, well, he's not really been doing a great job of it -- I mean, the guy literally refused to claim at L-1 simply to spite another player.

I've read that game and am looking at it again right now, but I see a distinct lack of opportunism and a willingness to attack strong players in this N that I don't see in the 160 N. The 160 N was definitely worried about how his posts were perceived (I just want to make it clear that was a prod dodge, that's why the post was short). I think the how many scum question was valid enough, and I don't think that N would do something so flagrantly anti-town as refuse to claim, especially on Day 1. If people were calling him town for being anti-town as fuck, then maybe, but when he's being singled out as scum for this type of behavior I feel like he would do something to counteract it.

Nacho, how familiar are you with Johhog's scum play?

Not familiar at all.

[Nachomamma8]

Penguin, you could do more to explain those Benmage, Empire, Tammy, Tierce, Vi townreads.

Cogito Ergo Sum--Not wild about him basing a lot of his reasoning off the idea that N, Vi, and I are a scum team, as I know that to be inaccurate. If he'd continued to push me, I'd find it more likely that he's a misguided townie; that he moved on to N and Vi and claims that I confirmed Vi was bussing N (really?) makes it feel like he has an excuse to push me and Vi if scumbuddy N gets run up. His avoiding what I consider to be a bad wagon with CrashTextDummie puts him slightly leaning town depending on how firmly he holds to his pet scum team theory.

Where are you getting the townread from?

DeasVail--Bugs me that he asked me about my reaction to his page one post, then said I'd thought about it too much. I still think that if he wanted it to be worth the confusion, he should have pursued it further, but then I don't have experience with making such moves myself, so it's more a point of interest by this time. Very slight townread, more for the first half of the day than the second.

Again, where does the townread come from?

[Nachomamma8]

also here, also having trouble finding johhog scum games

[Nachomamma8]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
He was a mime in Game of the Year.
This is a non-newbie Johhog scum game, and although he's partnered with someone else, he makes most of the posts.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Wickedjestet

!

and we're all in the mood for a melody
and you got us feeling alirght

[Nachomamma8]

Sob. I can't believe I stayed off the traitor because the Tracker's vote on them looked suspicious. Gonna do some ~*~rereading~*~ but first.
Saying that CTD doesn't feel like a vig shot is ignoring that he was very nearly the main wagon yesterday and there were many people with lingering suspicion on him. Also Traitors generally don't die when they are killed, so let's just go with Johhog murdered and CTD murdered for JUSTICE okay?

Let's stop talking about who shot who, okay?

Meanwhile, I need to do a little reanalyzing. I still am watching Empire, but I don't really think he's scum this game. Still feeling fine with a Wicked lynch, but I want to focus a lot more on CES-Vi today.

[Nachomamma8]

I may have conflated Tierce and you a bit in hindsight. My point was simply being suspicious of someone and not picking up on a fairly explicit softclaim is not all that likely to be the result of diligent scumhunting.

I don't see how anything you mentioned is supposed to be plausible anyway. Accountability, really?

Who is your current scumteam pick?
Vi, same thing to you.

Anyway, I'm not going to spend too much time on this today, so going over ISOs will need to wait

I do want your reads as soon as possible.

My point was simply being suspicious of someone and not picking up on a fairly explicit softclaim is not all that likely to be the result of diligent scumhunting.

A ton of people suspected Johhog despite him making that post and despite Tammy pointing out the PR possibility in her wallpost (and even I was wavering on the Johhog townread at the end of the day). I don't really see why Vi is being singled out here, especially given that this roster is fairly competent and should have caught that/considered it more.

I agree that one player getting singled out for something like that is stupid. Vi saying that he didn't notice it and trying to flip it around with "I think that implicates you more than it implicated me!" is a bit unexpected and I don't really like it.

[Nachomamma8]

Why should I be?

[Nachomamma8]

If you weren't being literal with the scum team thing, you can replace yourself with Shadoweh.

Why Shadoweh?

This question seems pointless

More pointless for you than CES, probably. But Shadoweh being the maybe maybe scumread for both of you is interesting.

If people can't recognize Town tells when they see them I don't see a problem with pointing them out.

When that towntell is based on NK analysis, I tend to cringe a little bit.

Man, this game feels dead. Where is Llamarble and why hasn't he been towninating recently?

game is dead, this isn't helping.

[Nachomamma8]

OGML what happened to benmage?

LA for about a week.

[Nachomamma8]

thank you guys for not posting a shit ton
<3

[Nachomamma8]

OGML what happened to benmage?

If you mean why did I take my vote off of Benmage, I think my post explained that pretty well. I'd still like to see him hang.

"everyone is whining at me"
shit you found in CTD's posts
I can't just get my blood pumping for those reasons, sorry.

I think it means Llamarble is more likely to be town. Is there something wrong with my logic here? How is this not relevant?

If you mean good cases and good observations, that's fine. If you mean something else which I feel like you do, then I have no idea what you mean.

And I haven't said anything along the lines of "I'm behind" in half of my posts. Nice misrep.

"I'm behind" or "I'm busy" seems to be an underlying theme in at least 8 posts.

This is a terrible terrible point. Are you serious here? Firstly, I NEVER said I was lost. I said I was struggling in post 254, yet still managed to take several stances. Secondly, the contradiction you imply here is absolute bs, considering post 484 came after twice as many posts as post 254. Struggling on page 11 means I should also be struggling on page 20? No way. Come on now.

You weren't lost, but after 484 you immediately dropped back into the lost persona; you brought up a lot of new suspects after 484, but didn't really follow up on any of them until the recent DeasVail vote, you just kept pushing the CTD-penguin/scum N-town mantra that we heard already.

Firstly, what Vi-scum case? Secondly, at the time I asked this question, unless there were PRs among PA/N/CTD, I very strongly believed a Vi lynch was not going to happen. There's nothing bad about that.

The Vi case was being anti-town and not normal town Vi. Meanwhile, two votes don't seem awfully hard to get, which would make the wagon as large as the N/CTD wagons. It's one thing to tell people to try harder, and another to imply they should just give up.

Sure, penguin had only made two votes, but some other players had made more. And IIRC, every player that had cast only one/two votes had at least cast one non-opportunistic vote. e.g. N.

I don't care to look back, and I doubt you do either. Attacking someone for two opportunistic votes is still weird.

Um... again, are you serious? Doesn't matter where I stand, especially in this situation ON DAY 1. If somebody's at L-2 and the time's almost up, then that somebody needs to claim. N could've been my strongest town read in my entire experience of playing mafia and I would've asked him to claim in that scenario. I could've even been in N's position and I would've claimed. It's the correct play. Worth noting that Llamarble did the exact same thing, and IIRC you completely ignored him.

Okay, fair enough on the "that's how you handle that situation". Llama's thought process was easier to follow for me. There was a "I think N is town because the style thing is generally town, but there are a lot of town people on his wagon and he's been playing like shit, so no tears from me when he dies."

Which doesn't really make sense to me at all as I think a scum team would be more likely to argue the scum team was smaller than it actually is not larger; I don't even know if I'm making sense about that right now.

Larger team makes people look for more suspects, more paranoia abounds. I was expecting a three man scumteam as well, so it doesn't seem like a strange observation to me. But I am more likely to agree with Vi that this point is stupid and people shouldn't talk about it much.

but that's mostly based on his self meta about his scum competency (particularly in #873) which adds a bit more dimension to his earlier attitude that he was struggling with the game.

I don't get a Benmage feel from him so I don't really agree that this is town.

Nacho's interactions with me and CES+Vi (in particular 841) look uniformly bad and leave me somewhat confused as to what to think here.

I have no idea how to handle either of you, although you seem more approachable recently. How do you think I should approach you two?

I don't doubt that Vi can fake her town tone. Just look at her points against me. There's not a hint of analysis to be found in them; it's closer to a rejection of thought.

I would imagine that it would be easier for Vi to fake her tone as opposed to fake analysis.

Tammy, I am going to look over your Vi walls tomorrow or later than tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

This is bullshit.

Double ISO yourself and CES, control+F "Shadoweh", and call it bullshit again. You both interact with Shadoweh a little and attack her early game, then go into ignoring her for a little while, then she ends up being "D1 leftovers" for both of you. It's interesting, yeah.

This is denying the obvious under a buzzword.

...no. Calling yourself town for Johhog the PR dying is stupid.

This not only doesn't relate to the quote that it's under, but a scumteam pick is ludicrous, especially if you're going to follow up with "but how can they be on a team?".

CES works in teams, you had been flitting from place to place recently and I wanted to see where your scumreads were. I don't understand the rest of this at all.

And this is you positioning yourself to be on your wagon. I'm tempted to tell you to vote me and get it over with since that's clearly where you're going with this.

It surprises me that you say this because I have been waffling hard as shit recently.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Llamarble

I'm going to revisit his Day 1 wagon, but his play today makes me want to play around with this for a little while.

[Nachomamma8]

Wicked, CES, Konowa, DV are Ps of I.
Vi, Empire, Tierce, OGML if he towns, and Nacho I feel good about.
Shadoweh and Tammy probably go in the townpile and Benmage probably is in the dubious pile, but I haven't read those recently.
And I make 13, so yeah this is probably now a 3:10 mini normal.

I think this could've provoked the scumkill.
Johhog also accused Empire of playing differently, so maybe Empire's an effortscum, which would also probably fit with a Konowascum. Guess I need to reread him.
I hope Shadoweh is town. Fortunately I don't see anything to push me off that opinion.
Benmage is meh. He could be town, though his contribution did die down some after the early flurry.
So I think we ought to choose from CES Wicked & Konowa today.

I could have guessed what declarations he would've made in reference to the people he reread before he even started rereading. Bringing up "oh, yeah, this is probably why scum shot Johhog" is strange to me as well. At first I thought bringing up immediately meant he was probably town, but there's the fact that he sets it up with the previous post that ruins it for me. Calling Benmage town for early game contribution is weird, don't really like it.

It's hard to casemake about CES.
I want to say how he treated me this game is funny, but it's different from the Revolution mafia buddying because he voted me for a non-bad reason first.
PoE is part of my vote. And CES' voting does work from scum.
I've disengaged for long enough that I will probably mindchange considerably when I reread tomorrow, but we'll see.

Using PoE to vote someone who can read you is a bit strange, but I don't really know how Llamarble deals with CES as scum. The "oh yeah mind will probably change tomorrow" is a very Llamarble-esque thing to say, but zero rereading in his next posts to the hop off Konowa to "yeah I'm not touching Vi/CES right now" when the wagon is going nicely doesn't feel right to me, and the jump back onto CES's wagon when Vi started making the bigger posts felt like Llama being reassured that the wagon was actually going through.

And let's not forget this:

Honestly the thing that worries me most about this is the insistence that there must be one scum between me and CES. Regardless of how I feel about the Dutchie, being forced into a situation where it's possible that both of us are Town and the lynch is just kind of ~decided~ to be between one of us for vague reasons ("well they're the ones arguing, and it's taken up the whole day [because literally half the game isn't posting], and when two people go after each other all the time like this is must be TownVscum") is setting off giant red fireworks.

I suppose with 4 days left the most productive thing to do with today is attack the main issue of discussion.
I'm ready to choose a side on the matter now and if I'm wrong then fine CES, maybe I don't know how to read someone like Vi. Who is like Vi but not Vi?

P. Edit: hahaha good luck with that Nacho.

Thanks!

[Nachomamma8]

In what way were my reread results predictable and why is that a bad thing?

No one's attacking Tammy, Tammy goes in town pile.
Some people are attacking Shadoweh, Shadoweh goes in the "convince me" pile.
Benmage is Benmage, so "meh" pile.
Predictable usually isn't good. You should make interesting observations, pick up on new things.

people who might have had other motives to kill Johhog (Johhog calling Empire scum)

yes because Empire is worried about Johhog calling him scum

I don't even see how my previous post set up reading Johhog, so ???.

actually might've gotten something interesting
who did you read to make post #763 and in what order?

Also I didn't call Benmage town for contributing early; I explicitly found that cause for suspicion, so ???.

You found it suspicious that Benmage's contribution petered off, correct? You did not state you found his early contributions suspicious.

Why would whether he can read me be relevant? Why is my noting my use of PoE relevant? You were my scumbuddy in a game where CES torched us, so I don't see how it's possible for you to have no notion of how I have dealt with him as scum. Why is it that mescum would jump off a wagon that was "going nicely" and then later rejoin because it seemed to be... going nicely???

I don't remember how we dealt with him in White Flag, and I don't really have time to go back and check. I'm pretty sure we hoped a few town would just fuck up and push through the completely wrong lynches, didn't bother with CES. I don't like that you went after CES for PoE because you respect him as a player a lot, I'm sure, and the whole "oh yeah let's go after him for PoE" seemed off. Why choose him first? Youscum jumps off a wagon that's starting to get going but seems like it's going to be a while before anything happens with it, jump it back on when the primary wagon pusher steps it up and you know you can get some momentum going. Why would you leave Konowa as either alignment unless you sensed that change?

Which is relevant / bad because ???

Because in the post I quoted you made a push to draw more attention to CES/Vi even though you could have pushed Konowa harder.
Also when the hell did you "settle" CES/Vi?

How so?

It's interesting because you both treated her the exact same way and I didn't expect that.

Also, nacho's slight defending of shadoweh here and there could be something.

She's a good townread of mine from yesterday. I would rather not lynch her.
I would rather lynch a little Llamarble, a little Benmage, a little CES.

[Nachomamma8]

who here knows your scumgame?

[Nachomamma8]

I seriously doubt the odds of you correctly guessing which of my piles Benmage and Shadoweh ended up in beforehand out of town/maybe/scum would have been all that much better than random

Safe reads aren't really hard to predict, Llamarble.

not because the fact that Johhog called Empire scum was a glorious revelation

It wasn't. After you pick up on the breadcrumb, logical conclusion is "oh, someone picked up on that". Then you don't look for who might have picked up on that; instead, you look for who Johhog called scum.

I read most of the people I mentioned in 763, maybe a couple others, in an order I am not going to attempt to reconstruct.

you don't keep notes?

I did not like the manner in which it petered off. I DID state that I found his contributing early suspicious:

If you subscribe to the "Benmage scum usually looks at least a little pro-town when scum" bit, then why did you care about his contribution petering off? Shouldn't that reassure you a little bit?

and the whole Vi-CES spat started after your initial PoE vote on CES.
why did you originally try to figure out CES first when he's a hard to read player? Did you think engaging him would help improve your read?

and yeah, I'll look WF over again later because I sort of blocked that out of my memory.

[Nachomamma8]

If you subscribe to the "Benmage scum usually looks at least a little pro-town when scum" bit, then why did you care about his contribution petering off? Shouldn't that reassure you a little bit?

Did you really just post this?

One day left to deadline; nothing to be gained from a No Lynch, pick a wagon and move it move it.

Cut: *snerk*

are you kidding me

[Nachomamma8]

nacho, get on the CES wagon and we can get a real dueling wagons thing going here. you're the key, don't let me down man

That would make
CES + Vi + Tierce + Me
vs
UT + Nacho + Shadoweh + OGML wagon.
Good luck.

you better kill me tonight

Vote: CES

[Nachomamma8]

Please justify this logic. Please. I don't have popcorn but I have hot chocolate and that's close enough to party food for me.

Benmage is sketchy because the initial contribution -> peter out pattern is always scummy. He was also sketchy early on because being useful wasn't something I associated with his town game. Maybe that does him a disservice, but that's the impression of him I had. His play in this game does remind me of his town-play in whiteflag, but it's not like the reasons he was almost mislynched there were particularly bad.

benmage is scummy for contributing! benmage town isn't useful, are you kidding me?
and now he's scummy for not continuing to be useful because contributing then not contributing is scummy!

[Nachomamma8]

There isn't even a contradiction there Nacho.
I found Benmage suspicious / worthy of investigation early for his manner of useful-seeming participation, not that that was a particularly amazing tell for which I lynched him; in fact he seemed town much of D1.
Then his contribution tapered off, which I find scummy.

You said that Benmage is generally useless as town. Then when he's actually starting to be useless, you continue to call him scum.

Vote: Benmage

[Nachomamma8]

I know Llamarble does.

[Nachomamma8]

It took her until less than 72 hours till end of D2 to start producing any semblance of content, and frankly I only think she's doing it because I'm voting her.

Day 2 was a boring day until recently.

[Nachomamma8]

Still not really a fan of any of these three wagons.

then join Benmage on OGML or choose your favorite

[Nachomamma8]

yeah....

unvote, vote Shadoweh

no time for counterwagons. this flip will tell us volumes about a few vocal players

No time?
Your vote is the difference between Shadoweh in first and the wagons tying...

[Nachomamma8]

nacho, get on the CES wagon and we can get a real dueling wagons thing going here. you're the key, don't let me down man

That would make
CES + Vi + Tierce + Me
vs
UT + Nacho + Shadoweh + OGML wagon.
Good luck.

you better kill me tonight

Vote: CES

...!
I didn't last long, but you don't need to last long either

[Nachomamma8]

you keep using this word...evidence....

you literally can't have evidence unless you have a mod-confirmed investigative result, and even then...

I have reads, I think benmage is town and I read that wagon as a rusewagon on town to distract us from the SCUMifom.

get more reads

[Nachomamma8]

i count one townread, 3/4 scumreads
it would help you be clearer, for one

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Benmage

hey benmage
welcome to critical mass

[Nachomamma8]

I'm really interested to see any reasons why Benmage is scum. I'm not inclined to suspect him for the hammer (If you put a wagon at lynch -1 you can pretty much count on him hammering it.) and I wasn't hugely inclined to suspect him even before that. If there's a real reason to suspect him, I'm missing it.

Its funny, less I do the townier I appear. I'm going to have to screw you all one day.

That day is not today.

I can't help but think that Benmage is a capable enough scum player to go "okay, if I lurk like hell, I won't get suspected".
He also feels a little less aggressive than usual. Generally when Benmage is suspected when he's lurking like hell as town he would have popped in a couple of times with "MY SCUMGAME IS FLAWLESS", but nothing of the sort so far.

BoP is about more than voting the bad peoples.

Then keep going.

[Nachomamma8]

Llamarble get to keep their spots in the town pile!

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

I do remember fighting with Benmage in white flag over my incorrect meta read of him there and if I'm remembering correctly he stated pretty strongly that he hated lurking as scum.

On the other hand, I do remember him bigging up his scum game in white flag, but the important part here is if that trait is absent in his scum games and present in his town ones. (In general I mean.)

I'm going to look at it being present in his town games. But I definitely don't think this is his typical scum game we're seeing at the moment.

[Nachomamma8]

This looks pretty scumbuddies to me.
In fact, I should probably just be voting Nacho.

I feel good about my ability to read N, and he was probably one of the weakest players on the playerlist Day 1. Of course I'm going to defend the shit out of him.

But, why wouldn't he as scum pop in to say that either? It's expected of him, it's easy enough to say, why not say it? What about it is distinguishing him as scum?

He's used to lurking and being called town, especially with this playerlist. Why would he know anything about a meta (as in, his lurking town meta) that he doesn't give a shit about?

[Nachomamma8]

Id lynch inte, only if it came to me or him.

I really think he's town otherwise his style of gameplay is insulting to the integrity of the game. I.e. whimsical noncontribution.

So anyways,

vote absta101

found this during my lurking benmage meta romp
my view is not quite intact.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho strangely is echoing points he tried to make on you as scum in white flag. I'm pretty convinced that I don't really have a perfect grip on your meta, but one of things I do recall being prominent as a meta point is that you hate lurking as scum.

white flag I had some "Benmage wouldn't lurk as scum in Team Mafia for Moral Reasons!" argument, actually.

The issue is not whether he's capable of lurking as scum (I think we can all agree that he is capable of it) but whether he'd actually go and contemplate that kind of strategy. It definitely seems like a point of pride for him (see: #192) and he's already mounted the kind of defense you're referring to (putting aside his most recent posts and #192, see #1075) so I don't really get where your accusation is coming from.

White Flag:

Spoiler: I AM SO TOWN

(imo, I just haven't awaken the dragon yet)

Zero incentive. Stated pressure votes = zero pressure.

FAIL.

It's not a pressure vote, it's a "I want you dead until you explain why you were gone for half of Day 1 if the reasons so suit my unvote" vote. Your uninvolvement was scummy.

So you'll sit uselessly voting me. Because 1 vote is zero inspiration.

And if others do vote me for the same premise.. All I do is commit X, and bam..votes go away.

*Yawn* I'm good for now.

Don't act so confused. Benmage ain't doing shit, and that's not the Benmage I know.

Are there any examples of ScumBenmage acting like that? (Hint: the answer is no)

Any examples of TownBenmage acting lackadaisical? (Hint: Yep)

P.S. the notion that MoS being on benmage's team is somehow incongruous with him being useless is nonsensical. And the person I'd most expect to care would be benmage if he were scum.

Thank you. Anyone worth 2 cents should have written me down as conftown long ago.

That said, quite comical I get some votes after promising to get my act together this weekend.

YEAH. I'm awesome in those town games.

And 100X more awesome in those scum games. WTF. Those scum games. Confmetown.

Your meta is actually kind of backwards to what I tend to expect from players, but is staggeringly easy to distinguish once you know what you're looking for.

Awesome scum games?
Dick town games?

g2g lil bros graduation, gosh zach get it together.

Spoiler: for those who think I'm still scum

Here’s a quick excerpt from in the court of gods. Its DTM, but most people will echo this:

You know what this is getting out of hand. I'd rather sink my gambit then spiral this out of contol.

I am a Town Hider

What I did was tell LLD that I will be targetting Benmage tonight and the game we did together (expressed by LLD) is Disgaea 2 Mafia. Benmage was a major leader in that game, and used RBT his mason vig buddy to shoot scumz and scummy players. He lead the town to almost victory before dying.

Benmage hasn't shown any of his leadership in this game so I had him under suspect.

The same type of play style (not caring, no cases, etc) applies to Benmage.

@Benmage
Don't you have insights of your own to put forward? Everything so far has been extremely reactionary. (There's no actions/scumhunting/etc put forward from you via cases at all).

6. Jack. Um... the Benmage thing did happen. I remember going oh lol wait I'm wrong,

but the laziness still is a valid point to attack

. And you attacked with me. I'll need to iso the rest to confirm Equinox's points now.

5. I also hate the implied notion that things can't continue until a flip/claim occurs. The stall comes from people not doing crap. Like Nopoint or

Benmage

. Farside, Equinox, and DGB/Andruis are examples of attacks elsewhere (While DGB is being lolz about it).

11. If Benmage continues to self meta I want game references plz and thanks.

(I just love selfmeta)

Here we have mini 1168 the links below show a lack of activity/prod doging from May18 to June 1.:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3060880
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3067726
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p3078466
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3087630

Lets look at LLD in AGM’s CYS:

@Mod: Can I get a mass prod? If not, can I get a prod on CSL, Katsuki, Ani, Maemuki, MOI and Benmage?

(Like I said in the VC - it's a weekend, but I'll be sending out a giant prod wave tomorrow. --AGM)

Also, Benmage is looking pretty bad. He's usually got more to say than this.

@Benmage: Who is scum?

Benmage, you're useless.

Me falling behind:
March 29

This wasn't suppose to be a spam game...I'll try and read tomorrow..

April 1.

Apologies, I'll see what I can do later tonight.

Me trying to catchup and getting angry:

Because this was so difficult for you...How far behind in this game am I?? Oh yeah... BUT WOES ME FOR ASKING TO MAKE MY LIFE A LITTLE EASIER...how fucking anti-town can you be. And you have the audacity to try and make me look back with your shitty belittling link comment....fucking uncalled for and disgusting. Go fuck yourself.

Next time you skim read...wait to see if someone else answered the request, save us from calling the whambulance.

OO this is good:

Myb for mia again....ill get back in here soon.

Dinner with the fam...then hopefully some freetime for mafia.

*insert peter griffin awkward laugh* 5 more pgs down putting me onto top of 11 ... I forgot too much from what I skimmed since where I left off..so hopefully from here I'll stay concurrent while catching up.

^^^Click that link. Thats me saying I just read 5 pages bringing me to pg 11... when the games on pg 32. LOL. This was a really shitty townbenmagegame.

So are we convinced Shitgames = Benmagetown yet?

How about that dragon reference from ACoK:

I've seen Benmage play town, in WoT Mafia and another game (I think one of the Freaktowns). There, he was super-aggressive, abrasive, controversial, made a lot of crappy arguments and weak attacks on obvtown, and was a major lynch target. But he was totally unconcerned with what other people though of him. I see a difference here. He keeps

stalling for time

, ingratiating himself to people who aren't I doubt it, playing nice and going with the flow, blatantly bandwagoning, etc. He never even reacted emotionally to my attack on him on Day One. I think that if he were town, he'd get a lot more heated in response. Dude, I called him a PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE BULLY.

Can you please stop it?

Lol! Stop being me. I get complained about not being me. You awake the dragon and complain. Listen if you're gonna play with fire, you're gonna get burned.

OHHHH YEAH.

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/8cdYSMuhiZJG

Mafia invictus scum qt. Post 128 DGB tells us to strategically lurk. Post 130 I say lurking as scum is lameeee.

I've always found lurking as scum horrrible.

But I just showed several examples of me dropping the ball as town, and zero examples of me dropping the ball as scum.

Sure this could be some predesigned meta excuse... or it could just be history repeating itself.

This is the difference that made me nervous. The latest post is old Benmage, but he was still pretty intense in self-meta'ing during WF.

[Nachomamma8]

my reads have gone to shit

Vote: Llamarble

[Nachomamma8]

CES is scum because he can't not be, which is less fun than catching someone's specific scumplays or scum attitude but will still result in town winning.

Why can't CES be town?

[Nachomamma8]

You're a funny one to say that. Pose to me how we get to our current situation without CES being scum.
You mean to tell me a town containing Vi, CES, Tierce, me, and various other good players mislynched twice against a scumteam of Benmage, OGML, and DV? I don't think so.

hold on. let me paint you a picture:

Oh hey

less than a day left

and rapidly approaching a point where claims are too little too late.

Well we need a lynch.

And plus we can use this mislynch against Vi.

Day 2, Votecount 15

Vi (1) - Tammy
Untrod Tripod (1) - Deasvail

Shadoweh (6) - Tierce, Cogito Ergo Sum, Vi, Llamarble, Untrod Tripod, Empire

Benmage (3) - Nachomamma8, OhGodMyLife, Shadoweh
OhGodMyLife (1) - Benmage

Not voting (1) :

Zachrulez

• With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 22nd of March at 11:59pm GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-22 19:59:59)
  
• No One V/la

I added an extra 24+change hours to the deadline.

VOTE: Untrod Tripod
Claim!

VOTE: Untrod Tripod
Claim!

town roleblocker!

^fuck that
HRMMM
-------------------[]

unvote vote Untold Tripod

boom goes the dynamite.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, late D2 basically everyone was around and we were able to move the wagon around a few times.
I'll grant that Benmage is sublucid and maybe even scum, but I still don't believe in the notion that we collectively have spent almost all our time driving wagons on different towns with an army of strong town players all with town role PMs.

Funny you, because if you're not scum there's even less room for CES to not be scum.

this is stupid.

Also you dont seem to mention that it was what?? 12 hours to a deadline if I recall... we were gonna change wagons???? ZZZZ

that's the point.

V/LA for a couple of days.

[Nachomamma8]

My post was entirely reasonable. Everyone posted in the last couple days of D2; there were votes enough to move where we wanted (and we did move a lot).

Everyone posted in the last couple days of D2, but it would have been better if everyone posted before D2 and got a lynch done before D2. You're ignoring the fact that there's been a lot of wheels turning without really making any new ground. Doesn't matter how many times we can move the wagon if we have no idea where we want to go.

The primary sources of total nonsense in this game have been you and Benmage.

And this is just patently false. You're pretending like somehow Benmage and I have tossed up smokescreens that prevented scumlynches, and that's yet another bit of bullshit.

He left several colors at home in his attempt to paint a picture that lead to benmage scum because of the hammer.

The point is that there was a shit ton of things that came into the equation of us mislynching twice. Llamarble is arguing that the playerlist being good somehow means that now it's time to say "okay, CES can't be town too", and that's not quite right.

[Nachomamma8]

He left several colors at home in his attempt to paint a picture that lead to benmage scum because of the hammer.

The point is that there was a shit ton of things that came into the equation of us mislynching twice. Llamarble is arguing that the playerlist being good somehow means that now it's time to say "okay, CES can't be town too", and that's not quite right.

I guess I still don't get the point of the ones you chose to include or what point that makes. The posts you included show vi telling us we don't have a lot of time, shadoweh at l-1, it claiming and Ben hammering. Are you making a statement about the shadoweh wagon falling apart or Ben hammering ut after he claimed?

The point is that we've had two days where deadline panic played a significant part in the lynch. Both days in a row, there's been a point of lag, deadline clamor, mislynch. The second day we even got a deadline extension, but we really didn't do anything with it, instead ended up driving a claim then hammering without any discussion. Obviously shitty play, obviously can't really be anyone's fault even though Llamarble is acting like something else happened entirely.

[Nachomamma8]

How is it nobody's fault? Causelessness is rare.

Yes, but the problem is not specific scum players being too good at all.

If the best players in a game are all town, there should be enough scumbags in the not-incredibly-hard-to-read pile that the army of beastly town-players ought to be able to reach some reads with some confidence.

Like who?

Instead the scum are good enough / the town is ungood enough that most of the towniest players have struggled getting reads, leading to deadline wagons.
I see CES being scum as the best explanation of this situation, and he also works by process of elimination and the fact that I simply can see his posts coming from scum.

But why is CES the best explanation of the situation? Him being scum doesn't mean that his partners are impossible to catch.

I don't see how you're viewing it that way. Day one had a significant early wagon on llamarble and a decent wagon on ctd. The main competing wagons then formed on n and pa with the ultimate choice being between them. In fact those two wagons competed for almost three days before the lynch was finalized hours before deadline. You got what you wanted that day as you fought to keep n alive instead of pa; the majority of your day one play was defense of n. There was no deadline panic to that lynch at all, and I'm surprised you're now characterizing it that way.

N was a very strong townread, yes. PA was a lesser townread. You're right in that deadline panic isn't the best way to describe Day 1, but the deadline played a significant part in the lynch. I don't know if you noticed or not, but penguin got lynched only after the entirety of the ctd wagon came over. A few people from that wagon (Johhog, myself, Benmage) came over to the penguin wagon because our respective lynches weren't going through. So it's not a surprise that the day ended in a mislynch and I don't see why CES had any part in that happening.

Day two was hardly a deadline panic either. If there was a deadline panic, we would have lynched shadoweh who was at l-1 at deadline and had claimed vanilla. She should have been the lynch yesterday. That lynch was a comedy of errors beginning when ut went weeeeee let's see if we can do something else in 24 hours for whimsy and ended in the clusterfuck that ended with his lynch. There was no deadline panic there either. Okay bn could have held off on the hammer, but ut also obviously wasn't actually interested in discussion or he would have, you know, just answered some of the questions I had earlier.

If there wasn't a deadline, that lynch wouldn't have escalated as quickly as it did at all.

Is this why you're voting llamarble? Because he's trying to find a reason for why we've mislynched instead of oversimplifying it as deadline panic? There are clear reasons the wagons hve shifted so far.

I'm voting Llamarble because there's a clear reason why we're mislynching and it sure as hell isn't CES.
Do you believe otherwise?

[Nachomamma8]

Benmage would fit as a partner given OGML's genuine disgust.

Explain this?

benmage is a great scum player and instead of doing anything, is lurking the days away
OGML is frustrated as a result

[Nachomamma8]

I welcome (and have asked for) discussion of the assumptions I've been working from btw.

what happens if CES flips town?

[Nachomamma8]

Benmage would fit as a partner given OGML's genuine disgust.

Explain this?

benmage is a great scum player and instead of doing anything, is lurking the days away
OGML is frustrated as a result

I wasn't asking you.

CES?

I'm prodding your chat along because I got bored of mine and have no idea where you're going with this.

[Nachomamma8]

nacho answering questions for CES is so incredibly scummy it should be taken out back and shot.

When questions are pretty much useless, then I don't see the need to let them float on by.

So, if he thinks that ces is town and Llamarble is scum, why is he limping about not actually trying to get his scum read lynched?

Do you really think I've been "limping about trying to get my scumread lynched"? Because if so, there's a problem.

Actually, to those on the CES wagon, why him over Nacho?

Why me in the first place?

And I was waiting to hear what Nacho had to say before interjecting.

What sort of intent do you think I had as scum in answering a question directed at CES?

(BBmolla did something like this in Sherlock as town, from memory)

That's part of BBMolla's meta.

Yeah, I would.

UNVOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum
VOTE: Nachomamma8

Now here's something interesting!

[Nachomamma8]

I can't show you how you're being silly if your case on me is "you're not acting town".

[Nachomamma8]

So what should I think then?

Something with an actual thought process?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: DeasVail

I was hoping he would respond one more time before I put my vote here, but this feels like a better vote for today.

[Nachomamma8]

I could be you.

[Nachomamma8]

A lot of us are around; I suspect we can lynch whomever we want before deadline, especially since there's an extra day now.
VOTE: Benmage
Shadoweh did a pretty good job on defense if she's scum.
I don't think any of the lynch options for today (CES Benmage Shadoweh UT) are terrible ideas though.

This is a pretty poor attempt to lynch scum if Benmage was your buddy.

A lot of us are around; I suspect we can lynch whomever we want before deadline, especially since there's an extra day now.
VOTE: Benmage
Shadoweh did a pretty good job on defense if she's scum.
I don't think any of the lynch options for today (CES Benmage Shadoweh UT) are terrible ideas though.

Also, why did you choose Benmage over the Konowa replacement here?

Vote: Benmage

No question this is today's lynch.

Why did you decide to come off him recently?

we got an unlucky role result on Zach

Why did you keep bringing this up?

We haven't lived up to our expected collective proficiency, which I find much more likely if one of our highest-potential-usefulness players is scum.

This was the main thrust of Llamarble's earlier arguments, and here lies his fuckup. Towns have worse games that they should have. Saying "oh, it's because our best town player is scum" is a shitty declaration, and is going down the worst possible path if town is fucking up despite good players and scum is just doing better than they should be.

I'm not sure the game is this easy though.

This easy? It seems like you have been having a lot of trouble with the game recently; this easy isn't really something I wanted to hear from you.

@Zach CES vote fine... Nacho or Llamarble, hellz , OGML has 0.0% chance of making it to endgame... lets grow some cojones here.

Why do you choose me over Llamarble?

I'll get back into this tomorrow (7:30 PM class got cancelled woooo). I've been thinking of stuff to post but I really don't have anything to say right now for some reason.

Anyone have things to ask me?

Weren't you going to meta me?

Would anyone have a problem with me hammering?

I mean, I really want us to be town together and not lynch each other and stuff, but I kind of think you're scum here. If I'm wrong, can you please show me that I'm just being silly somehow?

I didn't really like this at all because it seemed like Deas is voting me because I'm not really doing anything townish, which is hypocritical as all hell. The offer to hammer CES is also strange considering with the fixation on me; the timing itself was just weird.

[Nachomamma8]

Basically, I'd expect confusion from my post and a desire for clarification rather than "DV is scum!", which I think would be more likely from scum.

I don't really like this. DV's opening was easily explainable and this practically sets up people to townread him.

My other scumread is probably Johhog for saying that I'm basically concocting new reasoning for my first post (which means I'm scum or just really strange town and although I'm a little strange, I don't think I'm that much!), which I think is kind of bad, but

And of course his two main scumreads are a wagon that Empire sold him on, and someone who called him scum because of his gambit.

OGML- I think 832 is scummy though.

This is strange and the only townread he decides to attack while calling him town.

but I'm kind of resorting to what I'd do as scum with them and trying to actively look for anything I can attack, and I can't think of anything then either.

What can you find to attack in my ISO now, DV?

Llamarble: I remember liking something about his reaction to the wagon and the stuff about trying to play in a new way felt genuine to me. Other than that, his most recent posts seem a lot more like him trying to work out the game than trying to look town. I don't know if I can explain it properly, but it does feel like more than gut to me.

CES: I think the way he attacks Vi is really town. Not much apart from that, but just generally feels town I guess? I think he may be less involved as scum too actually (from what I remember of Mafia and the Kitties anyway).

OGML- Mainly N's play not matching what I'd expect, and I thought his attack on Empire was very town-like.

Shadoweh- Not much apart from her just saying stuff that I think she'd say as town (I mean just general entertaining Shadoweh-type things). I've never played with her as scum though, so I'm not really sure if I'm able to distinguish that well.

Benmage- I'm worried this may be naive, but I actually think his recent lack of involvement could indicate not-scum. I guess I'm kind of sheeping on him mainly though, as I've heard he has a good scum game. He's another 'generally feels town' person as well.

I know DV can do better than "feels town, feels town, feels town".

And yeah, I probably won't vote for CES.

What happened to the earlier CES read?

Overall though, I still think N's play is not how he'd approach the game as scum (I think there would be more effort put into looking town) and his attack on Empire is another thing that I think is townish.

rereads N, doesn't change reasoning even a little bit

Actually, to those on the CES wagon, why him over Nacho?

No responses...

Would anyone have a problem with me hammering?

Doesn't matter, goes for the hammering anyways. It's almost like he was looking for someone to give him an excuse to hammer, but decided to go through with it anyways.

[Nachomamma8]

Ok everyone, I think it's time for a...

S

C

U

M

R

E

A

D

C

O

N

T

E

S

T

!!!!!

Here's how it will work:

You each get a... certain period of time to convince DeasVail that you have the best scumread! The winner gets the fabulous prize of...

DeasVail's absolutely amazing persuasive skills, as well as his vote, on their side!

Your time starts...

NOW!



Note: This IS a legitimately fun contest, despite what any of you may think.

(Deas loves having people give him excuses to jump on wagons as scum.)

[Nachomamma8]

I made Benmage the leading wagon with 1 day left until deadline; what more 'attempting to lynch scum' do you want?

Benmage was already the counterwagon; if momentum was going there, your vote wouldn't mean much anyways. It was less that you attempted to lynch him and more that you didn't stand in the way of lynching him.

Why wouldn't I mention the reason Zach isn't in the scum pool when enumerating the scum pool (which I have done several times because as long as people agree with that and it's right we're pretty much going to win)?

No, it's bad because Zach is pretty much confirmed town. "Mafia Vanilla"

could

be possible, but it seems stupid to give the scumteam immunity to a two-shot role that doesn't real guilties.

That was not the main thrust of my arguments. It was the point that ended up being discussed a lot because people disagreed, but the PoE list is more important and based on regular old reads.

But it was the reason of CES over the rest of the PoE pool, correct?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not especially disinclined to lynch Nacho at this point though, since he's a strong enough player to know that the way you survive getting lynched is original scumhunting / pushing a new direction in the face of lynch-danger, and I can see his posting as scum doing that.

It's also the only thing I can do as town if I want to be happy with the end of day lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

was really, really disappointed to roll scum in this game. Scumteam was amazing and I loved it, but I definitely, definitely didn't want to play scum in this game. The fact that I rolled scum here and in Zachrulez's F11 was even worse because I had to worry about people comparing meta and it was just nasty.

That being said, this game actually turned out being fun as shit. I love being scumpartners with DeasVail, it was fairly entertaining seeing people trying to figure out CES, and I definitely enjoyed my little spat with Llamarble.