/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Llamarble]

Tierce is mafia.
VOTE: Tierce

[Llamarble]

I'm not. I also couldn't care less that you think that. Pretty confident in this read.

I generally approve of this sort of behavior, but for some reason this gave me a scumping.
The gratuitousness of the "I couldn't care less" bit probably has something to do with it.

VOTE: Konowa

[Llamarble]

Town:
Llamarble

Probably Town:
Johhog
Konowa
Nacho
Shadoweh

Meh:
N
Empire
Penguin
Tammy
Vi
DV - first post is scummy in the selfvoting way
WJ
CES

For lynching:
Benmage - Like Darox in that he is usually scum when he appears slightly pro-town
CTD - Putting a link into that short of a thought is scummy.

Tierce is weird. Probably town though.

VOTE: CTD

[Llamarble]

Johhog is comfortable / assertive.
"Whoa why did you get a different impression from mine" is town because town expect others to agree with them whereas mafia realize they have a different perspective.

Nacho is also comfortable and random antagonism isn't usually scumvtown.

I believe / find genuine Konowa's introspection in 47.

Shadoweh's "Then again I am a terrible judge of character" and "may not be good enough to do this" self deprecation posts sound town.
I'm never a fan of 'I am trying this once' or 'I wouldn't make this error as scum' though.

I don't have another example of finding a link scummy, but I think CTD wanted his post to be taken as immediate reactions to the thread while the link indicates more construction went into it.

Benmage is commenting on relevant things.

I've done ok at reading Benmage in the past, if I remember right.

[Llamarble]

VOTE: DeasVail

[Llamarble]

VOTE: DeasVail

[Llamarble]

Hey everyone I have reads on pg 4!!!!post 82 Look how town I AM!!!!!

Yes

CTD - Putting a link into that short of a thought is scummy.

Please provide evidence for this and/or where you've thought this before.

^this. I was gonna say wtf reasoning.... but I like this question more.

Why is it interesting whether I have followed a line of reasoning before?

Johhog is comfortable / assertive.
"Whoa why did you get a different impression from mine" is town because town expect others to agree with them whereas mafia realize they have a different perspective.

Or scum, don't want to be the only one pushing a foolish train.

I think this is an inferior explanation of Johhog's post.

Shadoweh's "Then again I am a terrible judge of character" and "may not be good enough to do this" self deprecation posts sound town.
I'm never a fan of 'I am trying this once' or 'I wouldn't make this error as scum' though.

Really the self deprecation, seems like an easy excuse to later say... BLJhsdjGHZJDGJZ i SUCK at reading people...

see how consistent I am?

Fair enough; this is not a ridiculous idea, but why would scum do that?

Unvote vote llamarble

Nope

@Llamarble--why did you completely drop your previous lines of reasoning to vote Deas without commenting on posts made by your "previous" scum suspects?

There is only so much time in a day.

Was that a good wagon by the bye, Tierce? I don't remember.

This is a bizarre question.

Unvote, vote: Llamarble

Nope

[Llamarble]

Oh And Llamarable what was this on again:?

Benmage is commenting on relevant things.

What?

Somebody had asked what pro-town behaviors in this game I was referring to when I recalled your usefulness being negatively correlated with your being town.

I already explained my CTD vote. He made what looked like a quick reaction post, but the way he used a link made it feel like he put more time into it.
"Posts that are constructed to make the poster look like they're in a different mindset than they actually are" is approximately equal to "posts by scum"

Why do you think [Llamarble]'s scum?

Benmage summed it up pretty succintly in #104 but to add onto that -- I really don't like his list of reads and the rationale behind them in #82 + #96. I think they're pretty shallow and he sometimes focuses on things that aren't alignment indicative at all. For example, Benmage "commenting on relevant things" doesn't seem like anything that would even remotely shed light on his alignment and the CTD scumread for the link within a "short thought" post gave me a wat reaction. It just reminds me of his early play in TM 2012 White Flag where he mostly just commented on meaningless things and his scumhunting came off as superficial.

I think I did a good job imitating my townplay at the beginning of TM12.
You can wat all you like, but I am smart and look at things others don't consider. Simple != unimportant.
You need to read more closely; the relevance of Benmage commenting on relevant things was already available in my posts.

Um ok, it didn't come across that way at all to me given what seemed to be a serious tone. What do you think of Konowa's and Llamarble's votes on you? Do you see them as being opportunistic as well or something else?

Konowa's leaning town so far. I think his vote for me was ok, but we'll see. Llamarble's vote I don't know what to think of, but I don't like how he hasn't done anything with it after your unvote.

Why should it matter to me whom others are voting for?
I am confident in my ability to prevent a lynch on a townread / cause one on a scumread when the time comes, and the time definitely has not come yet.

And for Johogs point. Your statement it being inferior, is simply subjective and doesn't make my point any less valid.

-The point with shadow... what's the logic behind it??? Setting the bar low.. you can't connect that dot on your own?

My interpretation of Johhog's point is grounded in first principles; I'm not sure yours is even logically viable.
If Johhog doesn't want to 'be the only one pushing a foolish train' then wouldn't that be the opposite of a reason for him to voice his stark disagreement?
I don't see why scum feel the need to set the bar low for themselves; I certainly don't suffer from this as scum.
I find it a towntell because in my experience scum tend to focus on their fake scumhunting / arguing and neglect secondary actions like introspection (of which self deprecation is a form).

[Llamarble]

Sorry, haven't had a decent block of time in the past 48 hours to get a grip on anything that's not really straightforward around here.

I feel like DeasVail's contradictory posts about CrashTextDummie's massclaim idea as a reaction test would have been more useful if he'd committed more, as doing such an abrupt 180 makes me wonder how much relevant information he mined from it. Compare to Konowa who got a bunch of people to jump on my wagon based on an RVS post. I'll still buy that DeasVail was reaction-fishing, so not currently a viable suspect to me.

Cogito Ergo Sum manages to hop on and coast for a while as far as I can tell, with his posts growing less and less related to the game at hand. Shows no interest in scum hunting beyond my wagon; why is that? I find Johhog's stance more pro-town, as it seems perfectly reasonable to want to see something change in the information you're getting from your lynch target before moving on.

Not loving the white-knight reaction to Konowa from Llamarble. And then Llamarble is jumping around with reasons to vote for people that seem rather thin and refuses to elaborate when called on that, namely that someone beefs up their post with a superfluous link implicates them as scum. Reads as a self-conscious attempt to get wagons going that he's not interested in standing behind.

UNVOTE: N
VOTE: Llamarble

This is probably a scumbag.
Also I have elaborated on my reasons for voting people rather more than is typical for me early on, including at least one explanation of exactly the question you asked.

Llamarble, why are you reacting wrongly to the wagon?

Votes annoy me. I play to solve the puzzle, and getting others to listen afterward is fun too, but dealing with silliness is a waste of time.

I think I did a good job imitating my townplay at the beginning of TM12.
You can wat all you like, but I am smart and look at things others don't consider. Simple != unimportant.
You need to read more closely; the relevance of Benmage commenting on relevant things was already available in my posts.

I did read your posts closely. If I'm understanding it right, you're saying that Benmage tends to play a more pro-town game as scum (which is actually not a bad summary of what I think re: his meta -- I remember reading somewhere that Benmage hates the lurking scum strategy so he's always intense and on top of the game when he's scum; conversely, the less aggressive/more laid back/lazier he appears to be, the more likely he is to be town). I guess I just want you to be more specific? How exactly is Benmage appearing more pro-town to you in a way that suggests he's scum? What "relevant things" is he commenting on? And what do you think about the substance of the back-and-forth CTD and I had?

You pretty much answered your own question. Benmage is doing scumhunty things / being useful.
This is by no means sufficient grounds to throw him off a cliff, but it makes me nervous about him.

[Llamarble]

I misread wrongly as strongly.
If you're asking why I'm not massposting / commanding people to GTFO, the answer is that I've been trying to make fewer, cleaner posts (see my 2 most recent games which I played as Norlkaz).
Massposting takes too much time, isn't always helpful, and it's up to everyone else to read me right so I'm just going to proceed with solving.

Penguin, did you realize I was Norlkaz (due to my mispost in this game) before you voted for me?

[Llamarble]

I was logged on Norlkaz looking at DeadQTs and stuff.

I was obvtown in nomination mafia with several hundred posts and had led both scumlynches but got mislynched anyway.
Bedtime stories I also got mislynched D3 despite having caused a scumlynch D2.
Revolution Mafia I didn't get mislynched, but things generally went badly.
When I looked back at my winning streak games I found that in a lot of my best performances I was obvtown with fewer, better posts.
In the just finished mini 1412 I led town to victory with only 61 posts.
Unfortunately this game is hard enough to solve that I haven't gotten to go "stomp stomp stomp let's lynch thwomp."
But that time will come. Sooner if I am less interrupted by questions.

[Llamarble]

Erm, I may have only led one of the Nomination mafia scumlynches and merely participated in the other.
I'm not going to go back and look.

[Llamarble]

I am doing my best. I am trying to improve as a player by making fewer, better posts.
I have spent a lot of the past couple hours on mafia and basically none of it on reading the game, so I do feel interrupted.

We were stomp-thwomping the scummies winvitational until the tracker-innocent-of-sadness and the opting-out-of-unkillable-masonhood.
If that game can be stompthwomped any game can be stompthwomped.

I have no problem with :relevant: questions but it does bug me when people repeatedly vote me for or ask me about things they could have figured out by reading my posts.
As for being at L-1, yes that annoys me. I would appreciate some time to complete my reading process, which as you very well know takes a while.

[Llamarble]

This will do for now; I've loaded the game into my mind and found a few scums.
I'll try to do another pass and pick up the last few I was too tired to read sometime soonish.
Empire, Deasvail, CrashTextDummie, Vi, penguin_alien is probably the lynchpool for today.
I'd be surprised by fewer than 2 scums in that list.

Town:
Llamarble

townish:
Benmage -
I wish Winvitational didn't get eaten because I wanted to compare that Benmage to this one. Whiteflag Benmage town isn't uberdifferent from Benmage here.
Benmage is trying to figure the game out (his questioning, his reevaluation, and his initiative as starter of my wagon point to this). He also pattern matches better as town than as scum.

CES -
He is mostly doing unobjectionable CESy things, and I understand his vote for me so he doesn't get the #scumzonmywagon label which I'm sure I shall be giving out soon.

Konowa -
He is generally decisive and game figureouty, though there isn't much material yet..
I still like 47.

Tierce -
L-1 unvote is always worth some respect, even if it came back.
Attitude question is solid too.

Verdict inconclusive:
Shadoweh / Tammy / Vi / Wjester -
Tabled because my mind doesn't feel clear.
Worth mentioning Wjester logged in while I was at L-1, I got an unvote, and Wjester didn't end up posting.

CTD -
Post 49 remains a scum pattern match for me; in addition to the link making it feel like a construction instead of a collection of thoughts, here's an attack on X but let's vote Y tends to gnaw at me.
"Because it's the most interesting thing going on" is not a scumpinging reason for joining my wagon though. My wagon IS the most interesting so far.
His most recent post is meh.

N -
Insufficient data, but he hasn't scummed things up yet.

Empire -
Fakeable posting (doesn't have to lie about the past and therefore talks about it a lot). Also #scumzonmywagon.
But it all could come from town too. Maybe.

Johhog -
He is probably not scum with DV on account of 73.
Reluctance to unvote Penguin might be a result of Penguin-scum; scum usually want to have a reason before moving off of a buddy.
And when he does unvote Penguin, Penguin has just made a very scummy post.
I can see a pretty clear town line of thought for Johhog for both his 'whoah' and his Penguin vote / unvote though, so he definitely doesn't get to be in the scum pile.

Scum:
Nacho -
Nacho posts less as scum. He has 2 posts. They're both fakeable.
I do think scum have less tendency to antagonize but scum-nacho-shoes feel pretty good when I put them on.

Penguin -
155 is very "I should have some thoughts; here be some thoughts."
Scum pattern match + #scumzonmywagon
@Penguin, did you notice that I was Norlkaz before voting for me?
VOTE: Penguin

DV -
Getting up to shenanigans to start the game is indeed his meta.
His scummeta is to be hesitatey / non-loose; he matches both those scumpatterns.
His vote for me is lukewarmsheepy -> #scumzonmywagon
He also has deployed the good ol' scumlogicks of I expect scum / town to behave like such and such in 89, to me in 130, and in 146 (which links him nicely to penguinscum).
Obviously town use this form of reasoning too, but I believe it's particularly common from scum and will give the first principles explanation if I have to.

[Llamarble]

4 scum

Thanks; I don't think I deleted your PM but I didn't think to look for it.

It seems, Benmage, that we disagree on some things. That is ok.
Why is setting the bar low something scum would do more than town?
I get what you are accusing Johhog of now; I think the term 'testing the waters' describes it a little better and that is something scum seem to do.
What I was interested in was the fact that Johhog was :surprised: by disagreement with his idea.

As for your relevant comments, any post where you called somebody scum, gave a reason for somebody being scum or asked a question aimed at getting alignment information counts.
I'd be quoting the majority of your ISO . Keep up the good work.

[Llamarble]

Well Penguin remembering 1412 that way explains their non-reluctance to lynch me.
I absolutely don't claim sole credit for 1412, as many people had good reads, but I definitely occupied the 'town leader' role and did a good job choosing lynches on scum & making them happen.
Personally I have always felt reluctant to lynch somebody who has led a town I was in to a win.
Penguin may be scum anyway though; she still pattern-matches as dicey.

Why does your proposed lynchpool not match up with your suspect list?

I believe my wagon was large enough and scummy enough in character that it's a solid way to make the problem smaller.
Empire's off the list at this point.

I do intend to towninate, just not in my accustomed post 150 times D1 fashion.

Vi, I don't see how 'giving johhog a pass' relates to voting DV; I certainly wasn't voting DV because he called CTD scum for massclaiming.
I don't see a 'DV surprised at being disagreed with' immediate reaction type post either, so yeah, not sure what you're getting at.

[Llamarble]

The manner in which you went about voting me doesn't bother me, yes, but that doesn't make you town on its own.

[Llamarble]

Llamarble:

Post 49 remains a scum pattern match for me; in addition to the link making it feel like a construction instead of a collection of thoughts, here's an attack on X but let's vote Y tends to gnaw at me.

This feels like you're inventing reasons to justify a bad vote after the fact. It's not a good reason either as I was not attacking one person while voting another, but rather attacking two persons and voting one of them. I can hardly vote for two people at once.

How does one justify a vote without talking about the thought process that led to it?
I'm pretty clearly (IMO) talking about how things looked to me after some re-reading, not about why I voted CTD.
It was indeed the attacking two persons and voting one of them (chained together in this particular manner) that bugged me, not a 'voting someone other than the person they are attacking' scenario. I'll admit I could be clearer on that.

[Llamarble]

As other folks town it up, I feel increasingly good about lynching Penguin.

I thought you stating that we should lynch CTD as more emphatic than just voting him seemed like an extreme reaction. It felt fake, but I wasn't sure where you were going with it. Basically, saying we should lynch someone, saying that they're acting scummy, and voting them is just overkill as a reaction early on. It makes a lot more sense that you were using it more as a reaction test than a sentiment you were committed to.

Scum are taken aback by somebody they know is town faking stuff and immediately wonder what the idea is.
'Where is this player going with this' is therefore a very common scum reaction to weird town play.
It's less common from town, who aren't particularly worried about where that player is going with their action; they just want to find out if the player is scum or not.
So maybe DV's reaction test silliness helped catch us a scumbag after all

N does not seem like a terrible lynch either.

[Llamarble]

The anyway can be replaced by 'despite her vote being consistent with her pre-game interaction with me.'
When I say 'pattern-match' I mean that as I read through her sentences I hear to myself 'works as scum, works as scum, works as scum, does this work as scum? yep' and so on.
Basically her posts match 'this is a scum ISO' patterns I have built up through experience.
It's often extremely difficult to describe how a neural network (such as the brain) reaches the conclusion it reaches, so most call it gut; I tried to be slightly more descriptive but I guess I just confused you.

[Llamarble]

Unfortunately I have been a bit busy to wind up properly, but I'll do my best to make sure scum gets lynched todayTHESHRIMPFUCKSTHECABBAGE.
N is too potentially town to be a good lynch today.
He's reacting to his wagon by scumhunting (well a little anyway), which is always an excellent sign and his vote is fairly independent rather than sitting on the most obvious alternative to himself (Penguin).
At this point he pattern matches as town for me too, likely due to loose / assertive play.

I don't see CTD as a bad player to be voting for.
Johhog doesn't seem as likely to flip scum.
I don't burn for Penguin's blood quite as much as I did earlier. Maybe I was wrong. Definitely maybe wrong not definitely wrong, but yeah.

Jester accusing CTD of bussing felt kinda like Jester bussing CTD.

I feel pretty sharp right now, so I am probably right about stuff. Except my reads are inconclusive so there's not much to be right about.
Actually this went from an everybody seems scum session to an everybody seems town session.
I should be able to get one more round of analysis in before the big push to make sure we lynch something that makes sense.
I would probably have deleted this post if I hadn't been prodded today.

OK I will go through again...
Benmage - meh. Not a strong townread anymore due to his manner of tapering off and the fact that his posts do have the fakeable characteristic.
CES is also dubious but definitely could be town.
CTD actually doesn't look like that good of a lynch. I still think "llamarble wagon is interesting" is a town line of thought. I prefer my lynches to be on people who :WILL: flip scum when its at all possible
DV - town?
Empire - could be scum but probably isn't

All I want is ONE positive

Konowa can work as scum if I can force myself to get over 47, which I might be able to

Yeah, I got nothing.
Today won't be a marble chooses a lynch and makes it happen day unless my next round goes really well.

I think I prefer CTD over Penguin or N at the moment.
VOTE: CTD

[Llamarble]

Johhog is playing a solid game if he's scum.
73 would be a good fake job, and his vote generally does things that make townsense to me.

I still don't think an N lynch is a good idea.
243, 429, 272 "trying a new style" (not to be confused with trying a new game-opener) is often town, etc.

CTD is still a decent lynch option and I will not complain if we lynch him and accept some blame if he turns out town.
That might be the best we can do with no LET'S KILL ITs and only a couple days remaining.

Benmage, CES, and Vi are all maybescums. Certainly there is at least some nastiness in the tricky-to-reads due to the lack of obvscums.

And Penguin seems to have gone away while pressure is reducing, which is always sketchy, and she has certainly voted like a scumbag.
Yeah, I forget entirely why I stopped wanting to lynch Penguin; she is definitely a strong option for today and maybe better than CTD.
She and CTD should be the lynch options for today.
546 actually means there's a reasonably good chance both are scum.

Yeah, I think I might start yelling at people if we don't lynch CTD or Penguin.
VOTE: Penguin

Current best scumteam guess:
Penguin, CTD, Benmage, CES

Even if I'm still wrong about stuff, I think I'm getting close to grasping the thread of the game / finding its pulse / metaphor.

[Llamarble]

I appear to be the only person who saw something in Llamarble giving a pass to one person and not another for the same reason. Whichever. See petsPick for a game where I had a similar amount of joy being in the same thread as Ll.

I was voted for a reason like that in Authors mafia and was actually scum, which was annoying because yes, similar actions can read differently to me depending on context. I'm still not even sure what DV did that was supposed to be like Johhog's post though. Do you not like playing with me? I thought I played OK in Animal Rescue, or at least my reads list wasn't bad. I guess I did get run up D1 or D2 for getting off to a slow start or something.

[Llamarble]

Ok Vi, I finally get what you were talking about.
The DV post you quoted is a disagreement with an opinion on himself. Specifically he is defending the idea that his opener was anti-town.
And "what do you mean by this thing that seems like an accusation directed at me" is different from "whoah that is different from my conclusion about somebody else's alignment."
So those two situations aren't even very similar, at least in how I read them.

[Llamarble]

I don't have an answer for you CTD beyond people posted stuff and I reread. For a sciency person I rely on holistic reads a sizeable amount of the time.
Honestly, rereading N again I'm not going to be yelling in his defense.
I really don't feel I have this figured out yet and the people leading the N wagon have pedigree / pro-town-ness.

[Llamarble]

N should claim.

[Llamarble]

Yeah, I think I might start yelling at people if we don't lynch CTD or Penguin.

I only half suck!

Now I know I'm trying to cut back on my bitterness output in this game, but where were the last two pages three days ago?

I feel like I should do something, but I don't know what and won't get more time for another few hours.

I Agree! I don't want to lynch Vi today.

I was thinking CTDscum explained Johhogdead but CTD flipped traitor.

VOTE: CES

[Llamarble]

Wicked, CES, Konowa, DV are Ps of I.
Vi, Empire, Tierce, OGML if he towns, and Nacho I feel good about.
Shadoweh and Tammy probably go in the townpile and Benmage probably is in the dubious pile, but I haven't read those recently.
And I make 13, so yeah this is probably now a 3:10 mini normal.

[Llamarble]

DV doesn't really live in the lynch it pile.
Tammy looks town.

Elaborate.

Well hi! That was a fast catch. In the last two games we've played together where you've been town, you've felt really dynamic. Here you feel like your watching the party more than enjoying it. I'm only on page 3...4...do you get better?

I'm aware of this. But think this one through. Does me playing differently necessarily mean that I'm scum?

I think this could've provoked the scumkill.
Johhog also accused Empire of playing differently, so maybe Empire's an effortscum, which would also probably fit with a Konowascum. Guess I need to reread him.
I hope Shadoweh is town. Fortunately I don't see anything to push me off that opinion.
Benmage is meh. He could be town, though his contribution did die down some after the early flurry.
So I think we ought to choose from CES Wicked & Konowa today.

[Llamarble]

It's hard to casemake about CES.
I want to say how he treated me this game is funny, but it's different from the Revolution mafia buddying because he voted me for a non-bad reason first.
PoE is part of my vote. And CES' voting does work from scum.
I've disengaged for long enough that I will probably mindchange considerably when I reread tomorrow, but we'll see.

[Llamarble]

Konowa CES Benmage lynches interest me.
Vi & Nacho I should reread but I think I got town last time.
Tierce / Empire I wrote off as town a while back; they will get revisited eventually.
OGML Wjr Shadoweh Tammy DV do not particularly excite bloodlust.
And I'm town.

[Llamarble]

^ is a weird post.
I don't see how you believe this is plausible without searching for evidence of a hint.
I had a brief spike of Shadoweh bloodlust but it faded.

[Llamarble]

I had a brief spike of Shadoweh bloodlust but it faded.

What gave you the bloodlust spike and why did it fade?

Various things and various things. One totally useless one is that I thought she said something CTD said that sounded scummy, then realized it was quote fail.

[Llamarble]

Can the competent people finally get round to looking at Vi? She's being pretty obvious.

I just did, and I'm having trouble seeing it. Do you think Vi faked the 4 scum thing and the scum-probably-didn't-kill-johhog thing?
I guess it is kinda hard to believe a smart townie assuming the traitor kill came from the scumteam given that it just doesn't normally work that way and CTD would be at least as weird a scumkill as johhog.
So OK, there is that. I did think late D1 was an important time though with Penguin finally towning, and the reaction to that seemed rightish to me.

If you think a traitor-crumb might take the form of outing the entire scumteam, wouldn't that be reason enough to take a little time and go look for it?
I didn't find anything when I did.

VOTE: Konowa
Tammy also looks like scum as of the latest pass.

[Llamarble]

Arrgh! My post was eaten. I will properly rewrite it because I am trying to regain my perfectionism.

UNVOTE: Llamarble

Do go on.

Get back on.

'Marble, with me!

Empire, vote vi.

These posts all bugged me because I didn't feel the attitudes / pushes behind them matched up with the forcefulness of language.

Why we should be lynching Konowa today

Konowa is not incisive this game. Compared to mini 1410, he is finding things to say instead of digging for scum.

Usually X: "Y is obvtown" -> Y: "That doesn't make sense" means X is scum.
Konowa, were you thinking of 1410 when you said you felt you were reading better early lately?
I still believe "I think I'm getting better at early reads" is a legit immediate followup thought, but I can make it fit in my mind with Konowascum now.
It is an excuse for a questionable-looking action, and if a scum is going to have a thought -> followup thought pair the followup idea being an excuse makes sense.
Konowa's later further elaboration is dicey too.

Got the job!

Anyways, short post short since I still have to work tonight. Empire asked awhile ago for reasoning (these will be short, so bite me).

penguin - Dissonance between 291 and 447. The whole "champion" bit at the end of 447 also comes across as BoP (I know not the -right- term, but close enough to what I mean).
Johhog - His play has been allkillernofiller. Nothing is coming across as someone trying to find alignment, moreso questions seem to be leading "Why are you [Empire] playing different", for example.
Wicked - Initially, I said if penguin then Wicked (I still think this read 480) , and later revised to he can go regardless. 484 made me throw up in mouth a little. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but listing right people and saying scum is in there? Saying that CES is in that group but that he always finds him Mafia so he's untouchable, I don't understand the need as Town today that. Then the softball request for views on DV and Nacho with lack of follow through. Seems like a complete swing and a miss of a post.

These little bites of reasoning all are things scum notice and use. And jamming scumreads / reasons together closely (think CTD) suggests the reads do not differ in importance to him, which is more often true for scum.

Konowa's scumreads have also been of the easy / popular / flipping town type.

I can't figure out CES / Vi / Benmage yet and I don't think anyone else has claimed to for strong enough reasons / with sufficient conviction to sway me.
Neither CES nor Vi are pushing on the other with forcefulness / casemaking enough to make me feel they really believe in lynching the other.
I guess that can mean bussing, but both are still playing good games if scum IMO. I imagine a scum lives in CES / Vi / Benmage but I'm still not ready to lynch there.
Let's lynch Konowa.

[Llamarble]

I went to ISO myself and decide whether I was pleased with my posting quality, and I came across this which is worth mentioning as part of my Konowa case.

I'm not. I also couldn't care less that you think that. Pretty confident in this read.

I generally approve of this sort of behavior, but for some reason this gave me a scumping.
The gratuitousness of the "I couldn't care less" bit probably has something to do with it.

VOTE: Konowa

Konowa's "I couldn't care less" line feels like an attempt to jam a towntell in rather than something worth saying.

[Llamarble]

I am pretty firmly in camp Vi-is-town at this point due to the recent flurry of good posts and all of the following earlier tough to fake stuff.
I'll reread CES and maybe some others later having made the Vi-is-town decision.

Gah. I need an hydra buddy or something. I feel like so much of this game is going WOOOOOSH over my head and that I don't know how to play alone anymore. I want to gripe about situations and get someone who reads the parts I skim and the possibility of bouncing ideas back and forth and I just

can't

.

I'm too scatterbrained for this right now, but eventually I'll probably appropriate the thread to act out a decent hydra discussion with Empire and/or Vi. It feels really damned awkward not being able to talk with either of them about the game as it is ongoing and I keep looking at AIM and pining for brainstorms we cannot have. Even when I currently have no idea what I

would

discuss, I feel like I need it.

Firebird feels very lonely and needs someone to hold her hand/wing/talon/whatever.

/)
(caveat the first: totes done this as scum before, with VP Baltar as victim)
(caveat the second: you've read more of the game for comprehension than I have)

Now I know I'm trying to cut back on my bitterness output in this game, but where were the last two pages three days ago?

I feel like I should do something, but I don't know what and won't get more time for another few hours.

Penguin-alien's analysis post, while not as awesome-town as Nacho's, was at least 10 times more pro-town than anything N has done over the entire day combined. I see his entire conduct over the last couple of pages, including his refusal to claim, as entirely bereft of any pro town motivation or thinking. He's riding the "too scummy to be scum" angle to the finish line and for some incomprehensible reason, enough people are buying it that penguin-alien looks like today's lynch. Feh.

After having some time to think it over... yes. I was wondering if unvoting and hoping for No Lynch at deadline was a good idea, but if we had to lynch someone, it wouldn't be p_a just for the sake of best-worst-case-scenario. I was probably going to feel like I made the wrong move no matter what, but I think I actually did.

#BUKKIT

VOTE: OhGodMyLife

No. The correct move is--

Johhog -

Town Tracker

was killed Night 1.

...um... hold a moment.

While I think about what just happened, how is N's replacement not Very Town?

CTD as Mafia Traitor means almost definitely four scum.
I'm really not thinking there's an SK and a Traitor in an invitational game, so I want to say Johhog was vigged and CTD was NKd... although that goes into whether Traitors can be recruited and etc.; more importantly I'm just not seeing scum kill Johhog. Which means that CTD looked Town somehow? and more importantly, our Town mascots Tierce and Empire are most likely completely off the mark.

Why is Konowa Town again?

You'd think strong players would fake this stuff more often, but I think it's actually the reverse since strong players don't want to make a move that can bite them and are confident they will do well without stuff like this.
Also it just isn't that common for scum to try and townslip like this.
(I'm assuming scum shot Johhog here, but I think that's a lot more likely than the alternative)

Vi, Tammy, T/S

You've seen a lot more Tammy-scum than I have, and from what I've heard I'm not going to be good at reading her.

With that said, T.

But why though? At this point even empire, who should be good at reading me, didn't feel really comfortable calling me town. Why did you, even with the caveat?

Because I had no reason not to except what I said.

So you're just arguing mild suckitude, is what you're saying? Mafia is a long-term game

And Tomorrow if there's no obvious safe push you just go with whoever winds up with the wagon. It's not that difficult when on a meta level there's no expectation for you to positively contribute.

Calling yourself a pre-existing major wagon is inaccurate and suspicious (also the only way of making what you said make a lick of sense).

News flash: Sometimes I don't make sense and sometimes that's actually not intentional.

You have lost all credibility by tacking "and suspicious" on. You wasted words on

that

feeble attempt to drive home your irrelevant point?

Did I really need to spell out that faking ignorance is a perfectly legitimate play?

Given how much :effort: I've put into this game I think it's an unlikely one.

I gots ta say, though, you're really stroking my ego about my scum game. It's a lot better than what I remember people (and Tammy) saying.

[Llamarble]

Vi can you tell me what your supertowntell was?

Let's see.

Genuine but obviously independent of alignment.
Genuine but mostly independent of alignment.
Vaguely townish but not that spectacular.
Although I agree with the general principle of strong players not faking town tells, there's not really a question whether she would fake something regarding Johhog - it seems obviously necessary; maybe if no one was paying attention to her.
I don't see why you quoted that last post.

The first two points especially suggest to me that you have no clue of how to read someone like Vi. I don't doubt that Vi can fake her town tone. Just look at her points against me. There's not a hint of analysis to be found in them; it's closer to a rejection of thought. The only times she's managed a point that seemed credible is when she's distorted the truth. Hint: see what's missing from Vi's last few posts.

I quoted that last post because of the 'I wish my scumgame were this good' towntell.
I will admit that there isn't a great reason owning up to a derp sounds townish to me.
Having found you scummy and then having trouble coming up with specific points myself earlier D2, I am not so bothered by Vi not having much beyond 'it makes the votes / game make sense.'

[Llamarble]

The "can the competent people please read Vi" appeal sounded town to me, but otherwise CES works decently well as scum.
I suppose with 4 days left the most productive thing to do with today is attack the main issue of discussion.
I'm ready to choose a side on the matter now and if I'm wrong then fine CES, maybe I don't know how to read someone like Vi. Who is like Vi but not Vi?
VOTE: CES

[Llamarble]

Tammy, I don't think looking at wagons in a difficult game is unreasonable town behavior at all.
And my wagon was probably the most useful D1 wagon unless the N slot turns out to actually have been scum.
"Oh so you killed johhog" isn't an outrageous reaction.
CES' you should've read Johhog more closely point is eh; not sure missing things is very alignment telling.

CES, I reread Vi a bunch of times today; I'd have no objection to agreeing with you if I could get to the same place.
I just don't see Viscum at the moment whereas I can see youscum, though I'll admit it's not overwhelming.
I also don't see N, which is unfortunate because I'm sure if yesterday was wagon vs CW lots of stuff would fall out of that. Nacho and Shadoweh are maybes.

Maybe CES and Vi should just both claim to give the rest of us more data.
Bedtime.

[Llamarble]

Tammy, I don't think looking at wagons in a difficult game is unreasonable town behavior at all.
And my wagon was probably the most useful D1 wagon unless the N slot turns out to actually have been scum.
"Oh so you killed johhog" isn't an outrageous reaction.
CES' you should've read Johhog more closely point is eh; not sure missing things is very alignment telling.

CES, I reread Vi a bunch of times today; I'd have no objection to agreeing with you if I could get to the same place.
I just don't see Viscum at the moment whereas I can see youscum, though I'll admit it's not overwhelming.
I also don't see N, which is unfortunate because I'm sure if yesterday was wagon vs CW lots of stuff would fall out of that. Nacho and Shadoweh are maybes.

Maybe CES and Vi should just both claim to give the rest of us more data.
Bedtime.

[Llamarble]

And you know what? On one hand this honestly came across as mildly offensive the first time I read it; on the other hand I think the chance of me making it to tomorrow unscathed is very low and after those last two posts I kind of want to screw over as many wrong and scummy people as I can.

I didn't mean to be offensive
Anyway, I approve your list.
Also, this claim is believable / very well done if scum. Why are you still voting Vi CES?

P. Edit: hahaha good luck with that Nacho.

[Llamarble]

You're silly Nacho; please try to make sense.

Wicked, CES, Konowa, DV are Ps of I.
Vi, Empire, Tierce, OGML if he towns, and Nacho I feel good about.
Shadoweh and Tammy probably go in the townpile and Benmage probably is in the dubious pile, but I haven't read those recently.
And I make 13, so yeah this is probably now a 3:10 mini normal.

I think this could've provoked the scumkill.
Johhog also accused Empire of playing differently, so maybe Empire's an effortscum, which would also probably fit with a Konowascum. Guess I need to reread him.
I hope Shadoweh is town. Fortunately I don't see anything to push me off that opinion.
Benmage is meh. He could be town, though his contribution did die down some after the early flurry.
So I think we ought to choose from CES Wicked & Konowa today.

I could have guessed what declarations he would've made in reference to the people he reread before he even started rereading. Bringing up "oh, yeah, this is probably why scum shot Johhog" is strange to me as well. At first I thought bringing up immediately meant he was probably town, but there's the fact that he sets it up with the previous post that ruins it for me. Calling Benmage town for early game contribution is weird, don't really like it.

In what way were my reread results predictable and why is that a bad thing? Why is it even slightly strange that me finding Johhog's pseudosoftclaim happens alongside me looking at people who might have had other motives to kill Johhog (Johhog calling Empire scum). I don't even see how my previous post set up reading Johhog, so ???. Also I didn't call Benmage town for contributing early; I explicitly found that cause for suspicion, so ???.

It's hard to casemake about CES.
I want to say how he treated me this game is funny, but it's different from the Revolution mafia buddying because he voted me for a non-bad reason first.
PoE is part of my vote. And CES' voting does work from scum.
I've disengaged for long enough that I will probably mindchange considerably when I reread tomorrow, but we'll see.

Using PoE to vote someone who can read you is a bit strange, but I don't really know how Llamarble deals with CES as scum. The "oh yeah mind will probably change tomorrow" is a very Llamarble-esque thing to say, but zero rereading in his next posts to the hop off Konowa to "yeah I'm not touching Vi/CES right now" when the wagon is going nicely doesn't feel right to me, and the jump back onto CES's wagon when Vi started making the bigger posts felt like Llama being reassured that the wagon was actually going through.

Why would whether he can read me be relevant? Why is my noting my use of PoE relevant? You were my scumbuddy in a game where CES torched us, so I don't see how it's possible for you to have no notion of how I have dealt with him as scum. Why is it that mescum would jump off a wagon that was "going nicely" and then later rejoin because it seemed to be... going nicely???

And let's not forget this:

Honestly the thing that worries me most about this is the insistence that there must be one scum between me and CES. Regardless of how I feel about the Dutchie, being forced into a situation where it's possible that both of us are Town and the lynch is just kind of ~decided~ to be between one of us for vague reasons ("well they're the ones arguing, and it's taken up the whole day [because literally half the game isn't posting], and when two people go after each other all the time like this is must be TownVscum") is setting off giant red fireworks.

I suppose with 4 days left the most productive thing to do with today is attack the main issue of discussion.
I'm ready to choose a side on the matter now and if I'm wrong then fine CES, maybe I don't know how to read someone like Vi. Who is like Vi but not Vi?

Which is relevant / bad because ???
Also I went so far as to attempt to drive things in another direction after having difficulty resolving CES/Vi, so you get more ????s.
After I got no traction / interest from others, I took another stab at figuring out CES / Vi, decided Vi was town until further notice and CES had a solid chance of being scum. Sounds to me like I was town doing townie things. I certainly don't 'insist one of CES or Vi must be scum' so yeah, this line is both not a scumtell and totally wrong in multiple ways.

Empire, CES has seen me explode on people who I think have seen enough to get me right but persist in attempting to lynch me. And he certainly knows the odds of getting me mislynched are extremely low, barring silliness. I don't think based on previous experience with me town that he scum would believe continuing to try to lynch me was a good idea.

As for Konowa, he makes a lot of stabs at justifying himself instead of just saying "I approved your DV vote," and I didn't particularly like the pieces in the end. Not to mention he actually claimed scum with the statement "Her DV vote is what I would have done as town" .

Vi being a reviewer of 146 is interesting.

[Llamarble]

It got me thinking that if you were going to fakeclaim a role 2 shot vanilla cop doesn't sound unreasonable.
Meh, you're still town.

[Llamarble]

#stillnotcontent: Vi, your rainbow pattern is broken. Though I do appreciate the red pick.

Vi and CES should both vote Shadoweh.

Can you explain Shadowehscum please?
I was kind of figuring she'd die soon if town, what with the "if I were a vig I would shoot CTD without a claim" business.

Who wants to just lynch Benmage?

[Llamarble]

Yay, the way feels clear!
VOTE: Shadoweh
I feel much better about this vote than most others today, except maybe my pre-replace Konowa vote.
At this point I want to say the buddies are Benmage and UT with Nacho as a backup.
Shadoweh, I am amused that you find me insane

I have lost interest in CESscum as a possibility for the time being.
He never really felt like an excellent scum-for-sure lynch and I was sheeping Vi a little.

[Llamarble]

CES is the backup-backup. He does make the wagons work nicely, and his pushes / insights (or lack of really good ones) have been a little weird, but if he is scum he has handled several situations well.
Not that I would expect him to not play well, but Shadoweh is much more solid scumnium.

[Llamarble]

Nacho stop being dumb.
I seriously doubt the odds of you correctly guessing which of my piles Benmage and Shadoweh ended up in beforehand out of town/maybe/scum would have been all that much better than random.
Tammy, perhaps, but only because when a lot of people have come to the same conclusion, the odds of somebody else doing the same are elevated because maybe the reasons are good or at least clear etc.
I also seriously doubt there are any players in this game for which you can't go back and say 'this read and this read were predictable' for plausible sounding reasons.
If you seriously went through my ISO and found low levels of 'picking up on new things,' you need to get some rest or something.

people who might have had other motives to kill Johhog (Johhog calling Empire scum)

yes because Empire is worried about Johhog calling him scum

I mentioned this because it demonstrated what I was looking into, not because the fact that Johhog called Empire scum was a glorious revelation that determined all of my reads forever. Your comment is irrelevant. I don't like irrelevant comments that pretend to be replies.
I read most of the people I mentioned in 763, maybe a couple others, in an order I am not going to attempt to reconstruct.

Also I didn't call Benmage town for contributing early; I explicitly found that cause for suspicion, so ???.

You found it suspicious that Benmage's contribution petered off, correct? You did not state you found his early contributions suspicious.

I did not like the manner in which it petered off. I DID state that I found his contributing early suspicious:

For lynching:
Benmage - Like Darox in that he is usually scum when he appears slightly pro-town

I respect both Vi and CES. These two players insist the other is scum but neither makes a case I really follow.
Therefore I OBVIOUSLY spend a lot of time trying to figure out what is going on there. And PoE is ALWAYS important to reading hard-to-read players. I am having trouble getting strong positive scumreads -> people I would have difficulty catching as scum are more likely to be scum, so in a game where I haven't gotten into slam-dunk-mode yet a tough read from the not-townish category is a good place to look at, especially when good players want them dead.
I was unsuccessful in convincing myself fully of CESscum, so I decided to try and find clearer scum elsewhere, and Konowa was the best one.
Then Vi made some longer (good) posts so I tried again to read CES/Vi and got a sufficiently strong townread on Vi to work off of.
Your interpretation of my removing my vote from CES and putting it back is silly; why is "starting to look like something will happen but it may take a while" a state of affairs I would GAF about as scum? Whereas one day after I made my Konowa case when a vote has been REMOVED from CES, the blood is clearly in the water so I come back?

As for how we handled CES in WF, I spent a lot of time trying to lynch him. I had to work very hard to find enough votes to put together a mislynch wagon D1, then did the same thing D2 but Zachrulez defected on his Benmage vote and that was the vote I had needed to mislynch Benmage D2. I was hoping D3 the large number of scum remaining and the best / loudest townies being dead would let me / Sociopath shout down everyone who was left / hopefully you could salvage the credibility of your slot which I had spent a ton of time protecting; we would have a big lead and only need a couple townies to be wrong at that point. CES was basically town leader / our primary adversary that game, so yeah, plenty of 'dealing with CES' occurred.

[Llamarble]

As long as we lynch from the Benmage UT Shadoweh CES Nacho pool I won't be too sad, but Shadoweh looks like the way to go.
The company on the wagon is excellent and Shadoweh voting CES at this point does bode well for her flipping scum.

[Llamarble]

Benmage and Shadoweh would be 'safe' reads no matter what pile they were put in.
After I find a reasonable explanation for something, I should stop looking for other possibilities or information to be gained? Yeah that sounds like a good idea. Besides, how often do you stop in mid-reading-process even when it is arguably the right move?
Posting a lot is usually the closest I come to keeping notes. I could probably reconstruct what I was thinking while writing 763, but I don't see why that is worth the time.
Benmage is sketchy because the initial contribution -> peter out pattern is always scummy. He was also sketchy early on because being useful wasn't something I associated with his town game. Maybe that does him a disservice, but that's the impression of him I had. His play in this game does remind me of his town-play in whiteflag, but it's not like the reasons he was almost mislynched there were particularly bad.
I believe I can read hard to read players, it just takes more work. I do not generally vote people in order to get them to produce material; I vote my best scumread and material comes of its own accord.
I suspected CES D1 so my vote on him D2 after the 2 scumreads I suggested lynching d1 died is probably one of my less from-the-blue actions this game.

You should probably try to lynch Benmage or CES if you don't want to lynch Shadoweh; you're unlikely to get anywhere voting me.

[Llamarble]

nacho, get on the CES wagon and we can get a real dueling wagons thing going here. you're the key, don't let me down man

That would make
CES + Vi + Tierce + Me
vs
UT + Nacho + Shadoweh + OGML wagon.
Good luck.

[Llamarble]

hehehe
I don't mean to be pretentious Shadoweh, though I certainly admit I think highly of myself.
Your reaction to your wagon isn't actually awful, though in your position if I didn't want a CES lynch I would make another one happen.

Benmage sure is the guy everybody wants to lynch but nobody is voting.

[Llamarble]

There isn't even a contradiction there Nacho.
I found Benmage suspicious / worthy of investigation early for his manner of useful-seeming participation, not that that was a particularly amazing tell for which I lynched him; in fact he seemed town much of D1.
Then his contribution tapered off, which I find scummy.

[Llamarble]

I am going to do one more readpass right now before I do even though I was planning to do some work, but yeah, probably.

[Llamarble]

To be fair Tierce does seem pretty obvtown now. Then again I am a terrible judge of character.

What ganja you smokin?

Meh, I still don't have any positives strong enough that I feel I should be the one to choose the lynch beyond making sure it isn't bad.
Benmage's play here is meh but it doesn't guarantee he'll flip scum. P.Edit: I just looked at your whiteflag play and yeah there are similarities; the 'maybe he is scum trying to emulate townplay from an earlier game' notion even popped into my head.
CES is still not a bad lynch.
I will probably follow the Tierce / Vi crew since I largely agree with them.

I'm especially having difficulty in this game with figuring out what the scumteam as a whole is doing. It's probably something like a lurker, a strong player, and one of the DV/Shadoweh types.
CES' wagon is funky enough right now that I wouldn't be surprised if it contained one of his scumbuddies. UT + CES would make sense to me.
I would love to see a few guesses at buddy-pairings.

[Llamarble]

Sorry; I will make my towniness worthy of relying on.
That being said you basically just said what I just said, but if you don't want to pick I will do it.
Most of the non-gray people are voting CES, which is more or less what I was getting at.

Argh, I just can't spend any more time trying to figure this out right now.
But I did.
The Konowa / UT slot is the only slot I don't get mind-contortions of doubt about lynching.
Actually no, Shadoweh (got to her after UT but had thought I remembered having some doubts) is pretty OK too. And they do work together, well.
I don't know whether doubts receding is just entirely random workings of my brain or I've actually gotten onto the proper track, but this is the second time I've read Shadoweh and thought 'this is a person we should really be lynching.'

Shadoweh + UT are scum and I am confident enough to proceed.
VOTE: Shadoweh if I wasn't already.
I am completely willing to switch to Konowa as I do have positives on both of them now, but this is good.

[Llamarble]

Blerm, neither of them were on my wagon.
Meh, CES / Benmage / DV can spit up #3 later.

[Llamarble]

(He still hasn't explained why he wants to wagon Benmage so badly despite being asked by multiple people to do so.)

So?

[Llamarble]

It's not because of the Konowa connection, nor can I give you specific these are the things that make you scum. Several of the posts that stuck out to me were:

To be fair Tierce does seem pretty obvtown now.

I may have mentioned it already, but this reminded me of me-scum in whiteflag sticking up for DGB's overearly townread on Equinox.

This is going to be one of those games where I get ignored until people want to lynch me again isn't it. >_> I supose it's because I'm not sure enough to engage INDIGNANT RAGE mode. I assure you I mean every moment seriously though.

This felt fake

CTD: Your scum list is like a Katamari Damacy game. Empire. Empire + Shadoweh. Empire + Shadoweh + Llamarble. Empire + Shadoweh + N + Llamarble BANZAI! You keep collecting suspects without doubting that maybe you were wrong about one on the way. That's the lack of change that I'm referring to that is completely accurate.
"Here are two ways to counteract a wagon. You didn't o the first one THEREFORE YOU ARE BAD" ignoring that my argument was that I was doing the second thing. GJ.

Unlike Nacho, I found this a scumfakeable line of reasoning. That may have been silly of me though; I see most 'the votes / suspicions went like this' lines as fakeable because that's the kind of thing I like to use as scum. In fact, I think I used this exact katamari line of thought as scum against CEStown as scum in WF, but that was ages ago.
I have to admit you do seem legit excited to lynch Benmage instead of CES.
I would LOVE to lynch Benmage and see him flip scum, but I haven't been able to fully convince myself that's what will happen when he dies.

[Llamarble]

Turns out what I accused CES of was totally static reads rather than Katamari reads, which aren't precisely the same thing but are based on the same idea.

[Llamarble]

A lot of us are around; I suspect we can lynch whomever we want before deadline, especially since there's an extra day now.
VOTE: Benmage
Shadoweh did a pretty good job on defense if she's scum.
I don't think any of the lynch options for today (CES Benmage Shadoweh UT) are terrible ideas though.

[Llamarble]

UT and Benmage are both good.
Shadoweh you got excited about lynching Benmage. That was well done if you're scum. As was your claim.
Empire do you actually think I'm scum? I hope you have more inspiring reasons than Nacho did.

[Llamarble]

VOTE: Untrod Tripod
Claim!

[Llamarble]

Who did Zach replace again? Right Wjr. Oh he's confirmed vanilla. Still seems scummy though.
We are pretty far behind in terms of living power, but we're basically 3:10 -> d1 mislynch in terms of deaths, so we can definitely recover and are probably a little ahead overall if we lynch scum today.
The living:
me
Trio of presumed (if one is scum I will blame the others) town:
Tierce / Empire / Tammy
The vanilla claims:
Zach, Shadoweh
Shadoweh is still playing a good game if scum. Zach I could go either way on but his vanillaness helps him.
Folk of the Fringe:
OGML, DV
OGML slot I don't have big issues with; N did a solid though annoying job if scum and OGML would be pretty cheeky too.
DV may have to go through the airlock sometime though.
There must be some scum here:
CES, Benmage, Nacho

[Llamarble]

Answer it again? I posted his entire iso as far as Benmage mentions go. He never answers why he thinks Benmage is scum ever.

I get why this behavior is annoying, but I don't get what it has to do with his alignment.
I will probably end up in favor of a CES lynch, but yesterday's scramble still needs to be reread.
Honestly, the main reasons I lean CES are BoP, PoE, and lack of town-ness.
I expect way more of him to an 'I doubt he would be this weak as town' point and most of the rest of the crew I have reservations about lynching.
He also makes the wagons make lots of sense as of my last checking.
VOTE: CES

[Llamarble]

Honestly, the main reasons I lean CES are BoP, PoE, and lack of town-ness.
I expect way more of him to an 'I doubt he would be this weak as town' point and most of the rest of the crew I have reservations about lynching.

You realize that the last time you applied a BoP argument to me I was

trying to bus my scum buddy for pretty much the whole game, right?

scum.

BoP is about more than voting the bad peoples.

As for the OGML / N slot, their scumhunting has been weak and they have been annoying, but N's manner of getting mad and the looseness of style they both had make me think they won't flip scum.
Pretty similar to Benmage's laziness, really.
Seems like Nacho would need to be scum if N is, given D1. Which was also when N was absent from the Penguin wagon.

[Llamarble]

That's actually pretty much exactly what BoP is. I also don't really see how you can go for that type of argument in the same game that you're voting me on PoE grounds on D3 (especially if N/benmage turn out to be scum).

Seems like Nacho would need to be scum if N is, given D1. Which was also when N was absent from the Penguin wagon.

Why?

Well when I say BoP, I am more talking of usefulness below expectations.
If N does turn out to be scum, then the late day one situation was scumlynch about to beat townlynch and I find it hard to believe a scum wouldn't have helped tip the balance the other way; Nacho is best fit for that scum.
Obviously rereads will happen with new info etc, but for 'does N make sense on a team' purposes Nacho being a scum possibility makes N a more viable scum possibility.

Who do you think the scumteam are?

[Llamarble]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p4815952]
Nacho the turbobusser?

Turbobusser of whom?

[Llamarble]

I'm going to look at it being present in his town games. But I definitely don't think this is his typical scum game we're seeing at the moment.

This is a true statement (and the main reason he isn't already dead), but if he had RL interference like he said he did and found that caused him to look town a la many lazy town games, I can see him running with it.

[Llamarble]

Day 1, Votecount 26

penguin_alien (4) - Deasvail, Konowa, Shadoweh, Llamarble

N (6) - Tierce, CrashTextDummie, Empire, penguin_alien, Tammy, Vi

Vi (2) - Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum
CrashTextDummie (4) - WickedestJr, N, Nachomamma8, Johhog

Not voting (0) :

NO ONE

If CTD did not know who his buddies were, the N wagon was very town or the Empire/Tierce/Tammy is bad.

Day 1, Votecount 31 aka End of Day Votecount

penguin_alien (9) - Deasvail, Konowa, Shadoweh, Llamarble, Wickedestjr, Nachomamma8, Vi, Benmage, Johhog

N (6) - Tierce, CrashTextDummie, Empire, penguin_alien, Tammy, Cogito Ergo Sum
CrashTextDummie (1) - N

Not voting (0) :

NO ONE

Nacho, Wjr, Benmage help PA wagon surpass N wagon.

Day 2, Votecount 15

Vi (1) - Tammy
Untrod Tripod (1) - Deasvail

Shadoweh (6) - Tierce, Cogito Ergo Sum, Vi, Llamarble, Untrod Tripod, Empire

Benmage (3) - Nachomamma8, OhGodMyLife, Shadoweh
OhGodMyLife (1) - Benmage

Not voting (1) :

Zachrulez

Shadoweh, CES, or both are scum unless TETbad or scum are furiously avoiding causing anything to happen.

Day 2, Votecount 16

Untrod Tripod (4) - Deasvail, Tammy, Zachrulez, Tierce

Shadoweh (2) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Vi

Benmage (4) - Nachomamma8, OhGodMyLife, Shadoweh, Llamarble

OhGodMyLife (1) - Benmage
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Untrod Tripod

Not voting (1) :

Empire

Day 2, Votecount 18

Untrod Tripod (7) - Deasvail, Tammy, Zachrulez, Tierce, Vi, Llamarble, Benmage

Shadoweh (1) - Cogito Ergo Sum
Benmage (3) - Nachomamma8, OhGodMyLife, Shadoweh
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Untrod Tripod

Not voting (1) :

Empire

DV, Zach, or Benmage.

The TET assumption is pretty helpful, so you TET folks had better be pretty confident about each other. I personally don't see much wrong with y'all.
So this narrows things down to... People not me or TET assuming me and TET town. How wonderful.
I don't really believe in Shadoweh scum though, so voting CES still seems about right.

[Llamarble]

Just turbobusser in general, 'marble. I don't think Nacho spending effort to save his buddy N makes notably more sense than more straightforward conclusions (i.e. if a bunch of townies showed up to swing the wagon to p_a late, then maybe that swing was driven by townies).

I believe that if N / OGML is scum then it is less likely the swing was driven by townies.
Even if Nacho is a turbobusser, it's hard to turn down an opportunity to turn a correct lynch into a mislynch, particularly since it fits with things Nacho said that day.

[Llamarble]

VOTE: Nacho

Nacho's

always

scum.

ugh you had to ruin such a perfect playerlist

Lack of absolute contribution to the game. N-scum feels fairly detached from the game, while N-Town might be snarky, but is definitely willing to provide reads in a proactive manner and without going with the flow, which is what he's doing.

It's too early for you to be attacking N for playing to his troll scum meta. He does this as town as well; the difference is that he actually steps it the fuck up as town when he gets something he cares about. I seriously doubt that N is going to play in an invitational with a playerlist like this and expect to get away with doing nothing.

I've noticed in quite a few of my games I've alienated people and gotten myself mislynched, so I'm trying a new thing. I'm not sure what you're exactly expecting from me (have you gotten my meta mixed up with someone else's?), but I can go through the whole thread and make snarky comments if you'd like?

go through the entire thread and make snarky comments to everyone

Also, I get the feeling that if I were CES, I'd be townreading Llamarble right now. Meh.

?

He kinda is trying to get away with doing nothing so far though.

So far, sure. But a casual start is a casual start; it's not worth the wagon he currently has on him.

My impression of N is different? I remember in Black Flag he was outing reads and stuff but mostly just attacking easy targets, was rather lurkerish, and had a hard time dealing with the stronger players in the room (for example, he spent most of the game tunneling/getting into a huge fight with JesseSheffield) so I think it would make sense for Nscum to have a hard time producing content with this strong of a roster.

Exactly. How is that anything like the N we're seeing here? He's taunting Tierce, flagrantly dismissing major wagons, not tunneling at all.....

a useless Nachovote

scumbuddies

help me bus my partner then

oh wait nevermind

Vi is not being fluffy enough. Benvolio is a terrible pick for Benmage. Plus, that means he survives, and

yuck

.

I was about to ask a cool question, then the votecount turned it into a boring question. So you get another boringish question as I ignore Messieurs Quote Stripes CrashTextMamma8. Tammy, the hot date with Big Blue should be over by now--thoughts on the wagons?

why do you ignore me?

Because you're all NachoofIllusion and it's boring and I'm V/LA in Paris. Is there anything I should be looking at, abridged version? I thought you were pretty studiously ignoring my presence in the game and was having no trouble returning the favor, at least for Today.

I was hoping you'd glance at what I've said about N so far

Ok, I know this isn't addressed at me but stuff like this is making me twitch to the point where I have to respond here. There are two obvious problems with this: 1) N's apparent is intended to obfuscate not clarify, so the Fate analogy makes no sense here, and 2) it makes zero sense to take up a playstyle change that, for pretty much any roster, is more likely to get you lynched, not less -- so that playstyle shift does not seem genuine to me at all and likely borne out of scum finding it hard to bullshit reads

1) Fate shifted his style to wall of text shit, which he knew people probably wouldn't be able to read thanks to all of his meta being geared around the normal Fate meta, but covered it up by stating that "oh, I'm making myself easier to read!". N stated that he is shifting his style because he gets mislynched a lot and alienates himself early, wants to try something new out. He did not state motivation for why he chose this specific game, only that he wanted to switch up his playstyle. Saying that he is trying something new doesn't have any clear motivations for a town player, and N not bringing up fake town motivations to justify his specific switch tells me that he's not providing that information as an avenue for someone to townread him by (notice that his defense to Tierce's accusation is "you don't know my meta" as opposed to using the playstyle shift as a defense), but instead as a bit of a "my play probably won't fit into either meta later".

2) A playstyle change that makes you more likely to get lynched is a shitty playstyle change for town and scum, yeah. I think that it's within his ability as scum to fake

anything

, and what you're seeing here is not N-scum flailing in a desperate attempt to create something because he's that horrible as scum. In fact, I'm fairly confident that most players here, the very newest newbies included, can create something along the lines of actual reasoning, so "he can't think of anything to bring up, but he can think to pretend to be making a playstyle shift which can cover up for his inability to make up reasoning completely!" is a shit attack that you definitely shouldn't be making at this point.

He also committed one of my favorite scum tells, in as much as I believe in scum tells, in Post 407. I did have this happen to me once.

>.>
It wasn't a wall of reads that N lost; it was a wall of snark, spurred by Shadoweh and me telling him to post one. There's a very big difference in between walls of reads and walls of snark.

My knee jerk reaction was to talk to you on aim about how ridiculous it was that he thinks you're scum. It just really speaks to the fact that I can't follow N's thought process at all. But, it's probably because it's just not a town thought process.

Or probably because you know Empire well enough to know how town he looks right now, while N really doesn't know him as well so the jump on his wagon without prior reasoning and pushing on it without the genuineness of Tierce instead looks like scum bulldogging?

Ok, I'm as updated as I can be with my reads and still support a Penguin lynch.

Could we get something more than this?

Oh and for my fellow tinfoil theorists out there, it's very likely that N and penguin are scum together (see: penguin's abrupt 180 stance on N, N's awkward reaction to her vote, and his seemingly willful refusal to give a read on her despite pointing out that her vote was bad).

Then you should have no problem reading penguin, correct?

...N explicitly says he's attempting to play differently than his past style, and your conclusion is that he's playing like he did in the past? And the "not saying why" is really shady.

Many people have said this before. How is someone calling him town the first time you pick up on this?

The best part is that he apparently wants to compare an Empire Town game to the current one when there are LOTS of finished Empire Town games, in hydras or alone (recent ones, too!), but no, this ongoing is too precious. And I'm shutting up at this point because modkills are bad things.

there is an obvious reason for this
a very obvious reason

Vote: penguin_alien

Once the remnants of the CTD wagon move over, things should be 8 and 8 with Benmage holding the hammer, and I'd be pretty happy with that.

Deas, what's been going on with you lately?

First of all, some of the paranoid bits against Benmage being more "protown" as scum is stupid and bullshit, but I like his response. He played around a bit promoting paranoia of his amazing scum game, but took careful means to shut down that angle and pointed out that he could roll as town just like he could roll as scum. The response to Vi avoiding his reach-out in post in #186 is genuine as hell and pretty would be my response to something like that happening, so that's a strong point for Benmage being town. He's also gone hard after not-easy targets (Empire early, Vi, Tierce), which, considering the wagon setup right now, reassures me a bit although scumBenmage could probably get away with attacking those targets in a way that no one else could.

CES seems fine so far although the penguin-N-Vi scumteam doesn't really feel like something that's anywhere close to valid to me, but that's fine for now. The exchanges with Vi (with Vi's response being "oh, CES isn't trolling right now!") feel doubleplusgood to me, so he's a townread for me at the moment.

I had an earlier townread on penguin_alien, but it's not really holding up now. I don't really like how she pushed a scumread on N for claiming to change up his style and not even noticing that no, he wasn't really succumbing to people's demand, and no, he wasn't even being a little bit reasonable. And if we want to talk about "having trouble faking reasons" meta, penguin's fitting pretty fucking cleanly into that sort of meta. She's usually very thorough as both alignments and ends up posting walls like candy and very rarely succumbs to non-walls, but her latest posting amounts to nothing more than "hi, let's lynch N!". It doesn't feel like she's adding anything new to the thread, and her tendency as scum to attack easy targets aligns with her not finding much to attack here. There's also the problem of her finding N's scum read on me serious, considering the reasoning he's given so far is "Nacho is

always

scum", which seems obviously incorrect to me and came before #504. So, she's actually a better lynch than I thought she was!

This is not me just going in :justice: mode about it, it's that his play fits much more scum being bitter at drawing scum with this playerlist

See, I don't really think that N would be bitter to draw scum at this playerlist; I think he would view it as a change to improve. Look at his commentary on Black Flag Nightless in his Wiki.

He's yet to answer any kind of questions regarding reasoning for his reads, and what he has on Empire is "he's just posting one-liners"

Last time I saw N making an inaccurate meta read, he was reading me as scum in a newbie game for posting too much, which was horribly, horribly wrong and easy to refute. I don't think N would push an inaccurate meta read as scum, but I do think N would push something like this as town.

I think your N townread is naive. I urge you to read NY 160 - Regfan and I misread N hard there because we applied way too low of a standard for him so a lot of the fake noob tells like him asking what an encryptor was and the bare minimum effort he gave seemed obvtown. He's doing a lot of the same shit here and he's being given way too much of a free pass for it. I've read games where he's town and he's frankly capable of far more proactive scumhunting than he has been in here and his scum games. The playstyle shift doesn't seem like a genuine excuse for me because, well, he's not really been doing a great job of it -- I mean, the guy literally refused to claim at L-1 simply to spite another player.

I've read that game and am looking at it again right now, but I see a distinct lack of opportunism and a willingness to attack strong players in this N that I don't see in the 160 N. The 160 N was definitely worried about how his posts were perceived (I just want to make it clear that was a prod dodge, that's why the post was short). I think the how many scum question was valid enough, and I don't think that N would do something so flagrantly anti-town as refuse to claim, especially on Day 1. If people were calling him town for being anti-town as fuck, then maybe, but when he's being singled out as scum for this type of behavior I feel like he would do something to counteract it.

This looks pretty scumbuddies to me.
In fact, I should probably just be voting Nacho.

[Llamarble]

So Nacho / CES / maybeN until further notice.

[Llamarble]

Yeah.
Remove Me
Remove TET
Remove Zach because roleinfo
Remove Shadoweh because I'll be impressed if she's scum
Remove Benmage because annoying and bad as his play is I don't see it being scum.
DV is possible and I should recheck.
And we have Nacho / CES / N-OGML

[Llamarble]

The fact that someone likes to bus doesn't mean they aren't a candidate for the scum pushing the wagon onto town instead of their buddy.
In that situation, if N was scum, usually a partner tries to push the wagon onto the other guy, and Nacho looks like the best candidate for that role given the towniness of the other options

[Llamarble]

The scumteam is pretty effed, really.
We have 5 lynches and 6 lynch candidates. If you count me then 7, but I don't lose duels as town when anyone sensible is alive so really 6.
If scumteam thinks they can lynch me I shall laugh as they suffer and die in impotence.
I don't think there are enough mislynches for scum to have a path to victory.
OGML, if Benmage is scum and you aren't, we have lynches enough to account for that, and even some time to rethink / get it right before then.
Note my voting CES right now as opposed to you.
Unless we lose faith in TET or we got an unlucky role result on Zach or Shadoweh is simply playing well and we fail to figure this out for the whole game, we're pretty much good to go.

OGML, we don't know whether CTD was aware of who his buddies were. I didn't see any rules about that in normals when I wikied.
I don't think very much is magical about my scumteam; everybody else is probably town and the scumteam works as scum.
Benmage or DV could steal your spot, but that's why I'm voting CES. His spot is pretty safe.
And since you agree with that one you may as well help me get it done.

DV is pretty funny; he thinks everybody looks town except Nacho on whom he has mentioned no read.

[Llamarble]

I know you need me to be mislynched to have any chance at all of winning and so forth, but it just isn't going to happen

Lynch CES, lynch nacho, reread, probably lynch OGML though DV also looks promising.
We haven't done awesomely on lynches so far but the rest of the way looks pretty easy.

[Llamarble]

How much more refuge in audacity does Benmage have to take before people get their heads out of their asses?

Tunnel blinds.. pretend for one second you aren't as bad as you appear to be.

News flash, if I don't flip scum, then what??!? BAM mindfucked dumbasss scub. (Remind me in the next invitational to take OGML off... fucking scrubs in this game, disgusting..) Go fluff another 50+ pages with less than 20 posts, you are USELESSSSSS

Your play is pretty feeble too Benmage.
We'll get to which of you two dies later.
You can help it be not yourself by voting CES.

[Llamarble]

Also for all the town-assuming we're doing for Tammy/Empire/Tierce, I would like to see a lot more out of them.
Empire's effort level is decidedly medium and contains a lot of 'look at me reading all this meta about people' and basically zero "I have found a convincing scumbag guys let's lynch them for the following decent reasons."
Tierce
Benmage
DV
Tammy
Nacho
3 of the 5 people on Empire's NEVER LYNCH EVER list have solid chances of being scum. Good Jorb.
And come on. What is 990.
I'll take Tierce and Tammy and deadVi's word for it, but yeah.

Anyway, I grow bored lets lynch CES.
CES is scum because he can't not be, which is less fun than catching someone's specific scumplays or scum attitude but will still result in town winning.

[Llamarble]

You're a funny one to say that. Pose to me how we get to our current situation without CES being scum.
You mean to tell me a town containing Vi, CES, Tierce, me, and various other good players mislynched twice against a scumteam of Benmage, OGML, and DV? I don't think so.

Given that you are voting me, and that your IQ is over 40, you pretty much have to be scum too at this point.
Can you seriously read over all my play from D1, all my play from D2, and all my play from D3 and not hear the voices say TOWN TOWN TOWN?
CES isn't pretending I'm scum; he's aware he has a much better chance of surviving by trying to get me to lynch somebody else than trying to lynch me.
You should learn from the wisdom of your scum-brother.

[Llamarble]

Town mislynching doesn't really take much + you're implicitly just arguing that Vi and me can't have an argument while both town which is silly.

(Really, if you ever feel the need to phrase your argument in generalities such as those, it's probably a bad argument. Good arguments survive contact with the thread.)

I think that if the scumteam does not contain CES, and we're not wrong about TET, any scumteam composed of the remaining options should be in tatters by now.
CES is good at town, and so are lots of others. We haven't lived up to our expected collective proficiency, which I find much more likely if one of our highest-potential-usefulness players is scum.
Yesterday's shadoweh wagon was all town unless CES is scum or TET has scum. I find CES scum easiest to believe given Shadoweh's play yesterday.
We also had a 4 person CES wagon containing presumed towns and OGML. This sounds pretty good to me; I'm starting to lean away from OGML scum anyway.
I don't see the CES driving townie vigor I've seen in the past.
And where don't you agree with my PoE process?
Not me, not TET, not Zach
Probably not Shadoweh
Maybe Benmage / DV / OGML
Probably Nacho
You

That's not exactly a large pool to deal with, and you've been guardian of the CTD / voter of people who have flipped town, Shadoweh, and OGML.

How do you feel about Nacho? I think he's the most likely non-you lynch today.

Do you agree that we probably win if we lynch everyone but me / TET / Zach / Shadoweh?

[Llamarble]

Nacho, late D2 basically everyone was around and we were able to move the wagon around a few times.
I'll grant that Benmage is sublucid and maybe even scum, but I still don't believe in the notion that we collectively have spent almost all our time driving wagons on different towns with an army of strong town players all with town role PMs.

Funny you, because if you're not scum there's even less room for CES to not be scum.

[Llamarble]

I kind of agree

maybe a bit '-ish'. some kind of.

I still think (I think) I think is townish.

I thought it's a bit silly It seems more likely

I think pretty town can be, but I'm not too sure.
seems like an attempt to look town maybe?

He seems a little probably less.

I'll probably (mainly just want to still looks), I think I still haven't decided (hopefully I won't need to?).

Lawl.

[Llamarble]

This game needs more TET and less me talking to the various scum candidates.
Everyone is assuming you guys are town. So Drive!

[Llamarble]

Sometimes people need to be chided / annoyed.

[Llamarble]

My post was entirely reasonable. Everyone posted in the last couple days of D2; there were votes enough to move where we wanted (and we did move a lot).
The primary sources of total nonsense in this game have been you and Benmage.

CES:
Generalities are like, how humans process the world or something. If you want to fight a general argument, specify why it doesn't apply here.
You not being a force for town increases the odds you are scum. Town collectively not having success yet increases the odds that not all of our best players are town.

Limited access this weekend.

[Llamarble]

When I say total nonsense I mean statements of "A implies not A" quality-level.

[Llamarble]

How is it nobody's fault? Causelessness is rare.
If the best players in a game are all town, there should be enough scumbags in the not-incredibly-hard-to-read pile that the army of beastly town-players ought to be able to reach some reads with some confidence.
Instead the scum are good enough / the town is ungood enough that most of the towniest players have struggled getting reads, leading to deadline wagons.
I see CES being scum as the best explanation of this situation, and he also works by process of elimination and the fact that I simply can see his posts coming from scum.

[Llamarble]

Took a look at Tierce and while she could conceivably be scum and hasn't been an uberfountain of scumhunting insights this game (who has?) she'd be playing pretty well if evil.

Shadoweh did kinda disengage after I started calling her town.
CES, if you're not scum I think Shadoweh is (on wagons both you being the only scum option for hers and her being the only scum option for yours today).
I should probably reread Shadoweh.

How about TET folks offer an opinion on
1. It is very likely that at least one of CES / Shadoweh is scum.
2. Which one they think is more likely.

Having just reread Shadoweh, I still feel pretty good about her.
And if she's town, the world is just Way simpler and makes more sense if CES is scum.
Shadoweh (6) - Tierce, Cogito Ergo Sum, Vi, Llamarble, Untrod Tripod, Empire
And now
CES - Tammy, llama, Shadoweh, Zach

[Llamarble]

How is it nobody's fault? Causelessness is rare.

Yes, but the problem is not specific scum players being too good at all.

If the best players in a game are all town, there should be enough scumbags in the not-incredibly-hard-to-read pile that the army of beastly town-players ought to be able to reach some reads with some confidence.

Like who?

Instead the scum are good enough / the town is ungood enough that most of the towniest players have struggled getting reads, leading to deadline wagons.
I see CES being scum as the best explanation of this situation, and he also works by process of elimination and the fact that I simply can see his posts coming from scum.

But why is CES the best explanation of the situation? Him being scum doesn't mean that his partners are impossible to catch.

For something like the fifth time:
There are plenty of players who aren't that difficult to read correctly.
Empire, Tierce, Nacho and myself all have reputations for strong town games and weaker scum games.
I don't think DV / Shadoweh / Benmage / various others have what it takes to fool me and Vi and CES and TET and so on.
If you remove CES from the awesome townies pile and add him to the hard-to-find scum pile with the bonus that because of how good he is he can influence the lynch away from buddies, the odds of us mislynching twice increase a lot. Since P(mislynching twice with CES scum) is substantially greater than P(mislynching twice with CES town), CES is more likely to be scum by Bayes rule. In addition, process of elimination has narrowed the pool to him and a few others. And his own posting simply works from scum. And the game's events (ESPECIALLY the wagon compositions), when read assuming CES is scum, make a lot more sense than they do with him as town (though substituting Shadowehscum for him would account for some of this).
This is sufficient for me to lynch CES today. If he flips town I will be very disappointed.
Shadoweh being scum is the best alternative to CES being scum, but I don't think Shadoweh is scum.
Nacho is the only lynch other than CES I would be really tempted by for today.
I let OMGUS keep me from lynching CESscum in Revolution mafia though, and I am not interested in repeating that, so Nacho goes second.

I don't see how you're viewing it that way. Day one had a significant early wagon on llamarble and a decent wagon on ctd. The main competing wagons then formed on n and pa with the ultimate choice being between them. In fact those two wagons competed for almost three days before the lynch was finalized hours before deadline. You got what you wanted that day as you fought to keep n alive instead of pa; the majority of your day one play was defense of n. There was no deadline panic to that lynch at all, and I'm surprised you're now characterizing it that way.

N was a very strong townread, yes. PA was a lesser townread. You're right in that deadline panic isn't the best way to describe Day 1, but the deadline played a significant part in the lynch. I don't know if you noticed or not, but penguin got lynched only after the entirety of the ctd wagon came over. A few people from that wagon (Johhog, myself, Benmage) came over to the penguin wagon because our respective lynches weren't going through. So it's not a surprise that the day ended in a mislynch and I don't see why CES had any part in that happening.

Normal things like people debating and compromising before the deadline happened. Therefore it isn't any surprise that the day ended in a mislynch.
Wat. As has been your usual this game the premise does not imply the conclusion.

Day two was hardly a deadline panic either. If there was a deadline panic, we would have lynched shadoweh who was at l-1 at deadline and had claimed vanilla. She should have been the lynch yesterday. That lynch was a comedy of errors beginning when ut went weeeeee let's see if we can do something else in 24 hours for whimsy and ended in the clusterfuck that ended with his lynch. There was no deadline panic there either. Okay bn could have held off on the hammer, but ut also obviously wasn't actually interested in discussion or he would have, you know, just answered some of the questions I had earlier.

If there wasn't a deadline, that lynch wouldn't have escalated as quickly as it did at all.

We seriously considered at least 4 lynches late d2 and put enough votes on them to make them serious possibilities, and earlier D2 there was a Vi wagon.
Calling late D2 a comedy of errors is simply inaccurate; a lot of the scumhunting in this game happened during that time.
We got it wrong, but chalking that up to the fact that a lot occurred in a short time is unsound.

Is this why you're voting llamarble? Because he's trying to find a reason for why we've mislynched instead of oversimplifying it as deadline panic? There are clear reasons the wagons hve shifted so far.

I'm voting Llamarble because there's a clear reason why we're mislynching and it sure as hell isn't CES.
Do you believe otherwise?

Yes

I put votes on CES, Shadoweh, UT, and Benmage yesterday all with expectation of lynch.
I helped lynch PA instead of N D1, but so did you, and I was also part of the CTD wagon.

So Nacho unless you think CES Shadoweh and Benmage are all town, which if you buy into TET + Zach leaves you with a me / OGML / DV scumteam, I tried to lynch scum at least once late D2.

I have also been one of the more energetic drivers of things-happening in this game, and if you seriously can look at my posting and not see somebody trying to figure out the game / make town win, there is something wrong with you. My play surrounding my wagon D1 was also pretty darn town. And if anybody were to actually want to lynch me I can go back and point out a number of things I've said that would require my scumplay here to be :awesome:. It's okay though; you aren't dumb, you're scum and going to die tomorrow after CES.

[Llamarble]

How about TET folks offer an opinion on
1. It is very likely that at least one of CES / Shadoweh is scum.
2. Which one they think is more likely.

If only by PoE, sure -- aside from that, I'm not sure that conditional is meaningful?

There are several wagons that are all-town on a townie if both of them are town, under our assumptions:
penguin_alien (5) - Konowa, Wickedestjr, Cogito Ergo Sum, Johhog, Shadoweh
Shadoweh (5) - Tierce, Cogito Ergo Sum, Vi, Llamarble, Untrod Tripod
The current CES wagon of me Tierce Tammy Shadoweh Zach

I currently believe CES Nacho DV is the scumteam.

[Llamarble]

*cue Benmage trollhammer*

[Llamarble]

That's just as much me praising others as praising myself, but I understand how it could be annoying.

[Llamarble]

Well I was hoping to see a scumflip, but I will wait more I guess.
I would accept Nacho as an alternate wagon on scum or Shadoweh as a wagon on probable town that at least makes sense if you think she's scummier than CES.

[Llamarble]

Obviously one or more assumptions I have been proceeding under could be wrong.
Sometimes you lose.
Shall we proceed?

[Llamarble]

I welcome (and have asked for) discussion of the assumptions I've been working from btw.

[Llamarble]

If CES flips town, we'll see who gets killed, then lynch scum tomorrow.
It seems pretty hard for Shadoweh to be town if CES is, so that will certainly be the starting point.

[Llamarble]

You know, OGML does kind of look like an obvious scumbag. In my current sleep deprived frame of mind anyway.
It looks like he is doing this being an obvious scumbag while on team CES-Nacho though. See N's Nachovote and OGML's CES is Benmage's buddy stuff.

I forgot to mention that if CES flips town I will listen to things he said and stuff.
CES, what is your opinion on the you-shadoweh dichotomy?

[Llamarble]

Benmage would fit as a partner given OGML's genuine disgust.

Explain this?

benmage is a great scum player and instead of doing anything, is lurking the days away
OGML is frustrated as a result

I lurked end of D1/and All of D2. I'm in the process of turning that around.

This is a prod-response-don't-replace-me post?? Really?
Wow.

[Llamarble]

Actually, to those on the CES wagon, why him over Nacho?

If we lynch Nacho instead of CES, that is probably still a good move and I won't complain.
I feel good about lynching CES though.

It's true that Shadoweh's 1454 was not so good.

I agree with Zach 1485. But generally when I reread Empire or Tierce I find some reasons they are playing very well if scum.
Also 'well it did' is usually the right response.

[Llamarble]

I've read the OGML slot and I don't see it. I will try much harder to if you flip town, but I am not able to at the moment.
It's not like I'm voting you over him just because of glimpses from orbit (though I would like more others to think bigger picture); I actually am doing a lot of reading.
Maybe a little less post-by-post casemaking than I could, but eh.

Do you think Tierce and Empire are scum?
Do you think Shadoweh is scum? (if you think both of you are town, this leaves us with several awkward looking wagons)
Tammy? I think Tammy is pretty darn town.
I know you don't think Zach is scum, and it doesn't look like you think I am scum.
That leaves you Nacho OGML Benmage DV; would you say you currently believe in Shadoweh / OGML / (One of Benmage Nacho DV) or somesuch?

[Llamarble]

"The thing that's wrong with the pool and with some of the PoE in general is that there doesn't have to be a scum on every wagon."

I don't dispute that all-town wagons are possible, but that's not an issue with the pool since the pool comes from behavior & all the usual prior to wagon analysis.
Given the pool, it's easier to explain a wagon being all-town by it being on scum, and a wagon of 5 people on town will most often contain a scum.
I believe this is true with higher odds than randoming the alignments of all involved because scums see large wagons on town as opportunities to create a mislynch and add their votes.
Yes, having a lot of townie people on a wagon increases the odds that the wagon is all-town (the low probability of randoming an all town wagon ceases to be a factor), but the several wagons that become all-town on town if CES and Shadoweh are both town makes one of them being scum a simpler explanation of events than the alternative.

I am okay with Nacho votes.

[Llamarble]

Well, as prior as I can make it anyway given that any ideas I have feed into my reads etc.

[Llamarble]

I made Benmage the leading wagon with 1 day left until deadline; what more 'attempting to lynch scum' do you want?

I don't remember why Benmage over Konowa at that time, though I did like Shadoweh getting excited about lynching Benmage and the notion of Benmage as the "everyone agrees he's bad but he isn't being lynched" guy was encouraging too.

Why wouldn't I mention the reason Zach isn't in the scum pool when enumerating the scum pool (which I have done several times because as long as people agree with that and it's right we're pretty much going to win)?

That was not the main thrust of my arguments. It was the point that ended up being discussed a lot because people disagreed, but the PoE list is more important and based on regular old reads.

Nacho your DV case isn't bad. DV is in the pool of elimination.

[Llamarble]

With 1 1/2 days till deadline, and noone voting DV... could you be more useless?

Don't be dumb. It's easy to get 6 votes together in 24 hours if you get traction. Nacho is way more 'useful' than you even if he's scum.

I'm not especially disinclined to lynch Nacho at this point though, since he's a strong enough player to know that the way you survive getting lynched is original scumhunting / pushing a new direction in the face of lynch-danger, and I can see his posting as scum doing that.

[Llamarble]

This is fine. I'm around and can vote Nacho if needed to make a lynch.

[Llamarble]

There isn't a ton of room for remaining roles

[Llamarble]

I was thinking CES town would've been hammered at some point, but the events around there actually do work with combos in the Nacho Shadoweh OGML DV area.

If you want to see CES run up as scum, check out Revolution Mafia.

[Llamarble]

Excellent.
VOTE: CES
If I'm right about CES too then I don't have to feel bad about not being on the Nacho wagon yesterday
I'll do the thing where I properly figure out who Nacho's buddies are later.

[Llamarble]

Well, Nacho mostly works well with the people from the PoE pool.
I have a hard time seeing him not voting CES, if CES is town, late yesterday.
He also very rarely mentions or talks to CES, in general.
A lot of his discussion with DV sounded almost coachy, and wheeling on him late for things he could have mentioned earlier certainly could be a buddy-vote.
And while this isn't Nacho-end, DV did offer to hammer CES when his preferred Nacho wagon was the main alternative.
He pretty much defended N throughout (see my earlier post quoting lots of Nacho posts of this type, though in the end I more got 'Nacho = Scum' and 'Nacho + N' became secondary).
I shall have to reread late D2 to examine those Benmage / CES votes in context.

[Llamarble]

Also works fine with Shadoweh.
Yeah, I shall have to read the other ends later.

[Llamarble]

Eh Benmage, there are decent odds you'll still get lynched this game. Very high odds if you're scum.
TET / me are the only ones I can pretty much guarantee won't.

[Llamarble]

@Llamarable what gives you the idea your safe from being lynched?

It just isn't going to happen. There's no outright threat or even thread-volatility, I have enormous amounts of towniness-ammo, I always win duels, etc etc.
I've more or less chalked this one up as a win with some work left to do since my "scum are pretty effed" post.
UT & Vi flips + a sprinkling of obvtowns / Zachconf left us a 'find one townie in this pool and victory is guaranteed' situation, and it doesn't even seem that hard to pick the scums out of that pool.

[Llamarble]

Yeah, Nacho lynch was by no means out of nowhere.
I didn't even end up voting him but it would have surprised no one if I had or if CES had for survival, so it had at least 2 more potential votes than it got.

Day 1, Votecount 26

penguin_alien (4) - Deasvail, Konowa, Shadoweh, Llamarble

N (6) - Tierce, CrashTextDummie, Empire, penguin_alien, Tammy, Vi

Vi (2) - Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum
CrashTextDummie (4) - WickedestJr, N, Nachomamma8, Johhog

Not voting (0) :

NO ONE

If CTD did not know who his buddies were, the N wagon was very town or the Empire/Tierce/Tammy is bad.

Day 1, Votecount 31 aka End of Day Votecount

penguin_alien (9) - Deasvail, Konowa, Shadoweh, Llamarble, Wickedestjr, Nachomamma8, Vi, Benmage, Johhog

N (6) - Tierce, CrashTextDummie, Empire, penguin_alien, Tammy, Cogito Ergo Sum
CrashTextDummie (1) - N

Not voting (0) :

NO ONE

Nacho, Wjr, Benmage help PA wagon surpass N wagon.

Day 2, Votecount 15

Vi (1) - Tammy
Untrod Tripod (1) - Deasvail

Shadoweh (6) - Tierce, Cogito Ergo Sum, Vi, Llamarble, Untrod Tripod, Empire

Benmage (3) - Nachomamma8, OhGodMyLife, Shadoweh
OhGodMyLife (1) - Benmage

Not voting (1) :

Zachrulez

Shadoweh, CES, or both are scum unless TETbad or scum are furiously avoiding causing anything to happen.

Day 2, Votecount 16

Untrod Tripod (4) - Deasvail, Tammy, Zachrulez, Tierce

Shadoweh (2) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Vi

Benmage (4) - Nachomamma8, OhGodMyLife, Shadoweh, Llamarble

OhGodMyLife (1) - Benmage
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Untrod Tripod

Not voting (1) :

Empire

Day 2, Votecount 18

Untrod Tripod (7) - Deasvail, Tammy, Zachrulez, Tierce, Vi, Llamarble, Benmage

Shadoweh (1) - Cogito Ergo Sum
Benmage (3) - Nachomamma8, OhGodMyLife, Shadoweh
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Untrod Tripod

Not voting (1) :

Empire

DV, Zach, or Benmage.

The TET assumption is pretty helpful, so you TET folks had better be pretty confident about each other. I personally don't see much wrong with y'all.
So this narrows things down to... People not me or TET assuming me and TET town. How wonderful.
I don't really believe in Shadoweh scum though, so voting CES still seems about right.

The Shadoweh / OGML / Nacho team does look pretty good. I could explain UT via scum vote-stacking earlier to CW for shadoweh and then not bothering to move when the situation became UT vs Benmage.

But then there is this:
Llamarble (8) - Benmage, Empire, Deasvail, CrashTextDummie, Vi, penguin_alien, Tierce, Cogito Ergo Sum

You're not even going to try, then? Very boring.

Vote: Llamarble

Was vote L-1. But:

Empire, if I had given an early opinion on the 'marblewagon, it would've been to reject it based on readability shenanigans.

So CES is of the "marble will eventually be super-readable" persuasion but stuck me at L-1 mid D1.
I mean Benmage's derpvote was already on me at the time, but that still created substantial opportunity for a wasted lynch.
Shadoweh/OGML/Nacho would imply two very large wagons on town with zero scums on them. That just doesn't happen often.

Actually, we are obligated by our current assumptions to accept a large scum-free on town at this point.
N (6) - Tierce, CrashTextDummie, Empire, penguin_alien, Tammy, Vi
N would have to be scum to prevent this one.
Shadoweh (6) - Tierce, Cogito Ergo Sum, Vi, Llamarble, Untrod Tripod, Empire
CES or Shadoweh has to be scum to prevent this one.
Untrod Tripod (7) - Deasvail, Tammy, Zachrulez, Tierce, Vi, Llamarble, Benmage
Neither of those two groups were on this one.

[Llamarble]

DV's posting is as limp as the fur on his avatar, but I don't think he's scum.

[Llamarble]

N/OGML slot works pretty much fine as scum.

[Llamarble]

Benmage works ok.
CES works well.
Shadoweh works alright.

On the next pass I shall revisit the important events of the times and maybe even start using Science.

[Llamarble]

You work pretty well together too.

[Llamarble]

I'll go into more detail when I'm ready. Ther'e's not much use in explaining why 4 different people could be scum at this point when they're 80% of the pool anyway.

[Llamarble]

Empire, it is very unlikely that both the traitor knew who the scum are and the scum knew who the traitor was. That would not really be much different from having an additional scumteam member. Usually only one (if any) is aware of the other I think.

[Llamarble]

I have some reading to do, but we just need to find a confident townread and it won't be CES

[Llamarble]

As long as TET + DV are town, we're good.
And having just read DV and I approve that message.

CES, do you agree with TET + DV town too?
I could be open to lynching Benmage / Shadoweh before you / OGML. I think those are the rest of the lynches in some order or another; I don't really see it going another way.
And even if Benmage is town it would be fun to mislynch him.

[Llamarble]

VOTE: Benmage
wheeee

[Llamarble]

Naw, I just dgaf regarding order among CES Benmage you OGML and thought it would be fun to vote Benmage.
Tempted to just hammer CES now to move things along.

[Llamarble]

VOTE: CES
Hopefully I'm not laughing my way all the way to the loss (this happened once face-to-face when an OBVSCUM was town).
But yeah, I don't see us winning against a TETscum and DV looks pretty solid too.

[Llamarble]

I was expecting some kind of reaction post from you, Shadoweh

[Llamarble]

If I'm scum, then I BUSSED EVERYTHING. (note: that is the opposite of how I play scum)
And my buddies each tried to lynch me too.
Also I would hope my behavior looks town, but eh.

I have no idea who I want to lynch out of Benmage/Shadoweh/CTD at the moment; I think CES scum warrants a re-read.

[Llamarble]

Yeah by CTD I meant OGML.
Anyway, we have 3 lynches which I think it likely we shall use on you Benmage and OGML.
I shall do due diligence on the rest.

[Llamarble]

I always thought Llamarable an above average scumhunter... this game is down right poor.

You do realize I wanted to lynch CTD for significant portions of D1 then voted CES most of the rest of the game while telegraphing Nacho as the guy to lynch after CES, right?
And at the points where I didn't have things figured out, I generally said "I don't have this figured out."

I know you need me to be mislynched to have any chance at all of winning and so forth, but it just isn't going to happen

Lynch CES, lynch nacho, reread, probably lynch OGML though DV also looks promising.
We haven't done awesomely on lynches so far but the rest of the way looks pretty easy.

VOTE: OGML

[Llamarble]

I felt okay-with-losing-if-wrong confident in Tammy-town last time I checked.
Empire / Tierce were totally confident in both her and DV, who I didn't feel as sure about due to the disgusting slimy limpness.
I do think the last two lynches are Shadoweh/Benmage though.
Benmage has pretty much obligated us to lynch him due to his 'I will vote for town in lylo' guarantee.

Since I am convinced Tammy is town, I'm claiming the CTD vigshot now. Aw Yeah.
She gets to be the decider tomorrow, assuming there is one and I get shot tonight.
All we need is one confident townread, which Empire/Tierce said was DV and I didn't find that disagreeable (this is why I've been perfectly happy to lynch fast).

[Llamarble]

Alright, here we go.

[Llamarble]

Tammy gets to win if she is scum. Whoever else is alive tomorrow votes each other and she decides.
This is both my opinion and the strong opinion of basically all the dead townies.

[Llamarble]

Benmage is not clearly scum. He's played a solid game (well, in terms of looking town anyway; definitely not in terms of expressing coherent ideas) if scum.
I suspect it'll turn out to be one of the other two at this point.

Time to read the being of supreme disgusting slimy limpness.

[Llamarble]

DV you are a spineless goop-bubble. You may have been wrong in 935 but it was still a good post and you should try to make more posts like that.
Post confidently about the things you feel confident of and admit indecision about things you don't feel confident about.
Anyway, I did not pull any major scumpings off DV's ISO or his mentions by CES/Nacho.

For each of DV/Shadow/Benmage, if there are any especially strong reasons we should see you as town that we might have missed it would be good to collect them at this point.

[Llamarble]

Ok, Shadoweh could be scum but has done a few things right.
So I'll proceed with round 2, most likely tomorrow, wherein I examine important events.
Also I'll do CTD->each.
And meta. Meta will be important to understanding the undercooked egg and the birdie; birdie works pretty well if she is good scum in general, which I could buy.

[Llamarble]

I would, but I've got uni work to do tonight (which I really should have done before now)

I'll see if I can squeeze in some time, but I'm not sure.

If you already feel ok about your reads, why does it take a while to just post them?

Overall I didn't have much issue with DV D1. If things continue like this I'm going to want to lynch Benmage & Shadoweh and let DV live, particularly considering Tierce/Empire wanted DV off limits.

[Llamarble]

CTD kinda works with everyone. Pokes at Shadoweh a lot without a vote, tells 'benmage & CES' to use their votes better, and questions slightly / defends DV in response to DV's opener.
So yeah, didn't get much out of that other than slight worries about lynching Shadoweh, but I have slight worries about all 3 already.

[Llamarble]

Vote: Nachomamma8

Llamarble you tool if I didn't answer when you said you were going to hammer did you think maybe I wasn't here? Incidentally I was reading the Dangan Ronpa 2 update and I regret nothing because it was AWESOME yeeees.

##Vote: OhGodMyLife

<-- We all know how this day is going already. I look forward to hearing why I'm scum from people I would have killed a thousand times over by now as scum.

Llamarble does think there's a good chance it's you.
I respect you enough not to assume you're town for failure to exhibit some traits of your play in another scumgame.
I haven't ruled out any of DV/Benmage/Shadoweh as either the scumbag or the one who gets to live.
I think the deadQT will lynch us postgame if we lose by lynching DV (Tierce, Empire, OGML all wanted Benmage/Shadoweh lynched or found DV town) though.

I'll do final rereads tomorrow, but I think I am headed for DV = town -> lynch Ben/Shadoweh.

[Llamarble]

Oh right I quoted those AGES before writing the rest of that text heh.
Deas why was that vote naked? I find scum like naked buddy-votes.
Shadoweh why was the foremost thing in your mind at the start of d5 following a scumflip to call me a tool?
Also, not quoted: Benmage outright called OGML town something like the day before voting him.
Also the "I'd have already killed so and so" from Shadoweh is a bit fudged since there aren't really any ambiguous / weird kills.
And Shadoweh quoted the wagon on me immediately before CES jumped on, making it look more incriminating for the other two.

[Llamarble]

He did flip scum though; I'd expect :some: relief that the wagon you were pushing instead of Nacho's turned out to be equally good.

All 3 still work as scum.
Benmage clicked nicely, but then so did DV.
I'm not especially comfortable leaving any of the three alive.
Ah well; our odds are 2/3. I'd assumed one of the pool would've towned proper by now, but it hasn't happened.

[Llamarble]

DV is certainly the most textbook-scumbag.
He pretty much has sat on the sidelines playing around with his scumlist and trying to look town.
Benmage is the most blatantly anti-town.
Voting OGML and voting UT were pretty transparently scum motivated moves.
And Shadoweh is the choice of townies past (for not especially bad reasons).

None of them have particularly townish interactions with dead scums. Each put some votes on one scum or another.
Each works more or less fine behaviorally, much as Benmage would like to pretend otherwise.
I'd say Shadoweh deserves the scumwin most; she's played well if scum.

[Llamarble]

openyoureyes...

You're arguing that I scum, opted to stall the CES wagon for a day, to bus my buddy Nacho out of nowhere...Like wow, you're logic is comically bad.

Seriously... in WF you were scum, so that meta is null.. and I don't remember our last town game because I don't recall you being this terrible at reading the obvious.

Why is this supposed to be even slightly hard to believe?


Clicked nicely as in worked nicely as scum.

[Llamarble]

Benmage is the most blatantly anti-town.
Voting OGML and voting UT were pretty transparently scum motivated moves.

Please explain the scum motive.

"This guy's PR claim could potentially get me lynched instead of him if people think about it too long"
"I need to mislynch people and town seems willing to mislynch OGML; let's do that. I need more boldness points anyway"

[Llamarble]

^Quotefail:

Clicked nicely as in worked nicely as scum.

What researching were you examining that "clicked"... or is this all just gas?

Your ISO works when read as a scum ISO.

[Llamarble]

WHy is it hard to believe??

Because it makes zero logical sense to do as scum.

I say, CES can be lynched tomorrow... Let's lynch obvscum Nacho, because the CES support is very strong, whereas Nacho we ought to strike now.

Where is the Scum motive in literally lining up back to back scum lynches like that?

Well first off, that isn't what you actually did:

CES is so town, he wouldn't have been all useless with me as long as he was as scum.

Unvote vote Nacho

Then the following day you voted CES, then voted me, then revoted CES when it was obvious he was going to die.

[Llamarble]

I also don't particularly care about your "I wouldn't have lurked as scum" when you attributed your lack of participation to RL causes.

[Llamarble]

Alright, I think it's DV.

[Llamarble]

The NKs aren't terribly relevant; either a PR or an obvtown has died every night.
Tammy is not for lynching.

VOTE: Deasvail
I could be wrong, and if I am then hopefully Tammy gets it right tomorrow. (getting it right tomorrow probably involves lynching Shadoweh)

[Llamarble]

I think that case was largely intended for posterity; Nacho was trying to get us to have one opinion or the other on Deas after his death (in addition to doing the thing where you scumhunt while being run up). Given what nacho was probably trying to accomplish, I wouldn't trust his case as a towntell.

[Llamarble]

Eh, I think CES / Nacho would be choosing the kills given reputations and so on.
And I think Johhog was a let's eliminate PRs kill since various high priority targets like Tierce were still around.

DV, why apologize to Empire?

A sit in the corner and push some reads around approach isn't unlikely from a scum in a game where his buddies / the town are very high level.

[Llamarble]

Eh, I think CES / Nacho would be choosing the kills given reputations and so on.
And I think Johhog was a let's eliminate PRs kill since various high priority targets like Tierce were still around.

Possibly, but him pressuring 2/3, possibly all three of the scum team members, and the traitor, can't have hurt. It's not like they were 100% sure he was a PR. I didn't say DV would be choosing the kills regardless. It would depend on what those two thought was more important.

That's fine, but I don't think the difference in kill probability is great depending on who of the remaining possibilities is scum. (CES is scum regardless, etc)
And the traitor probably has no role in kill selection...

[Llamarble]

It really sounds like you're apologizing to him for talking so much about how wrong he was...

[Llamarble]

I feel like something is really wrong.

Clearly Benmage and I are actually scumteam B and we only used our kill N1.

[Llamarble]

I bought a bike today!
This is also a prod dodge.
I'll probably do another reading pass, but the ball is kinda in Tammy's court.

[Llamarble]

Why did you back off from me today?

Your wahmbulance sounded genuine enough, thats the beauty of getting into a "shouting" match.. see if you take the blinders off you can read alignment (Its hard/ I'm good, as for taking credit sue me for not thinking everything should be a tie these days

*looking at you STILL Faraday*

... fucking Peyton manning wins a game with less than 15 minutes of offense. Instead of going "Ya well I'm the effing man"... its all the team was good the blocking the catching the yada yada team team coaching team....That is the modern mentality. All children tie. Then we grow up and wonder why we don't have a job and the economy sucks and everyone should be equal and everything should be free and a tie... because as kids we never appreciated competition/working hard to achieve things! (winning) Consider me an ancient fucking Greek. The Greeks turned everything into a competition. Killing the most people in battle/ Getting to the enemy lines first, dodging more enemy missiles... they didn't go it was the team derpherpderp. No they said FUCK did you see me I killed 30!! That guy over there only killed 29 see how awesome I am. The point is... It is okay to take credit for being good at things)

The point isn't that being proud of oneself when appropriate is bad.
You spent half of today insulting me when I've clearly done more to make town win this game than you have. That's just irritating.

[Llamarble]

Yeah, I did belittle a bit. That is a fair statement.
I never thought of myself as a similar player to you before this game, but we do seem to have a lot of behaviors in common.
We're both kinda callous, we both don't always bother to explain our thoughts clearly, and we both have good results because we don't get lynched or NKed often and have solid reads.
Also inflated egos.

I'll reread this evening and we'll see where I get to.

[Llamarble]

I haven't totally ruled you out, mostly for lack of a strong enough positive on Shadoweh or DV.
A Shadoweh vote from me isn't all that unlikely. It could definitely be her.

[Llamarble]

My logic on the OGML vote was that literally everyone wanted him to be that day's lynch, and I saw no possibility of him being left alive in lylo.
Also Benmage was annoying me and it was morning-ish after insufficient sleep and I was hoping to win outright. And antsiness.
I forget why I thought he was scum, but retrospect leaves alive the lines of thought that were right etc.
Ah well.

Obligatory:

I currently believe CES Nacho DV is the scumteam.

I'm glad we were at least spared a Dogberry-Verges comparison.

[Llamarble]

Also Yay!