/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

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We won't.

Vote: penguin

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Benmage - Like Darox in that he is usually scum when he appears slightly pro-town

Pretty sure you're just bad at reading benmage.

Random thought: Closed White Flag.
Non-random thought: this game is boring.

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They're normally somewhat meaner.

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Was that a good wagon by the bye, Tierce? I don't remember.

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No? That's more of a prerequisite.

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(I also do tend to remember who my scum buddies were in games, generally.)

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My smugness is tangential to the question. I don't really remember anything about the wagon beyond lazily bussing him and pushing him for claiming Neighbor at the end.

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Talk about inconsistent avatar quality.

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Not loving the white-knight reaction to Konowa from Llamarble. And then Llamarble is jumping around with reasons to vote for people that seem rather thin and refuses to elaborate when called on that, namely that someone beefs up their post with a superfluous link implicates them as scum. Reads as a self-conscious attempt to get wagons going that he's not interested in standing behind.

Talk about bussing.

Llamarble, why are you reacting wrongly to the wagon?

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DV's obviously made up excuse

This is not really a thing that happens, just fyi.

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You're not even going to try, then? Very boring.

Vote: Llamarble

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"strongly" would've made for a weird question.

Are you saying that being obvtown wasn't always helpful? Why were you logged on [godawfulname] anyway?

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When I looked back at my winning streak games I found that in a lot of my best performances I was obvtown with fewer, better posts.

I'd suspect it'd be simply an issue playing a good solid game when there's little expected of you. You either have to run away from having a reputation or learn to deal with it.

Unfortunately this game is hard enough to solve that I haven't gotten to go "stomp stomp stomp let's lynch thwomp."
But that time will come. Sooner if I am less interrupted by questions.

My soul is overflowing with bravado but this seems a bit much even for me. This is not a game you can just thwomp and relevant questions when at L-1 are not interruptions.

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We were stomp-thwomping the scummies winvitational until the tracker-innocent-of-sadness and the opting-out-of-unkillable-masonhood.
If that game can be stompthwomped any game can be stompthwomped.

That only took, what, 100 pages?

Unvote, vote: penguin

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*shrug*

There's something there.

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I supose it's because I'm not sure enough to engage INDIGNANT RAGE mode.

Uh, I think you may be putting too positive a spin on it.

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So, that and his feeling like I did on konowa's first post makes me feel town, but ces can read him right? Am I on crack?

Probably. His refusal to towninate does make things decidedly less straightforward.

Ces what's your read on crash text dummie?

Null. Dude's tricksy.

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Empire didn't post a wall on me and now I don't feel special. Procrastination says fuck it and find other lynchable reads. Guess I'll check out Johhog, DeasVail, Konowa for weak scum. And I GUESS the main wagon even though I don't feel interested in him which is usually my subconscious telling me to sleep through reading town lynches.

Just go for penguin?

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How anti-town is Vi as scum, Tierce?

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PEdit: I still have no frigging clue how to read Vi. Ask Empire.

Mind you, I'm not talking about the quirky "emulating Glrok" type of anti-town; I'm talking "let's just push this mislynch hard". Given your hydraing with Vi as scum (with the quickhammer and everything), you must have some idea of how much of the latter Vi's scumplay has.

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so I'm trying a new thing

Is the new thing "not scumhunting"?

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Vi, how anti-town is your scum play?

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Is this the "taking quotes out of context" part of your scum meta?

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Vi-penguin-N it is, then.

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Empire, can you do a cool little anti-Vi screed?

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Unvote, vote: Vi

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I'll admit, I'm struggling to develop many strong reads. And I dislike checking other games (for meta purposes) to develop/strengthen reads in this one, but I might have to do this soon anyway seeing as I'm only somewhat familiar with two or three players here. I'm kinda frustrated/stressed/tired right now so I plan to look a little deeper tomorrow. And I'm hoping to establish more stronger reads asap.

Ding Ding Ding, scum found.

How is that not a doubleplusplausible position for someone like wicked to find himself in?

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Most things are plausible. Reasonably few things are doubleplusplausible.

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I'll look at Vi's meta again later since I'm going out tonight. I remember you were in all the games I looked at though (Black Flag, Chrono Trigger Resurrection, Tierce's Micro, etc.) so you might want to take a look at those too.

Did you not get that I was asking you to write up a little something to impress the young'uns? I can't do that myself as I have morals.

Also, I get the feeling that if I were CES, I'd be townreading Llamarble right now. Meh.

CES, thoughts on Konowa?

That's oddly (beautifully?) specific.

Konowa looks fine.

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DeasVail is totes Australian, Tierce.

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'Marble, with me!

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Yeah, 'cause that post didn't need editing.

Vote for Vi? I forget who you're voting for but I doubt it's a good one.

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Ah, I missed that vote switch. Not exactly displaying an empire state of mind here, still.

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Team Mafia was such a perfect storm. I don't expect a game with that high a rhetoric:scumhunting ratio to come around for me for a while.

Benmage, the change that 'marble mentioned predates this game (see norlkaz) so it's not a tell.

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Having said that, as far as Vi is concerned right now, I'd put her as leaning town for the way she's posting: not very defensive, willing to vote ahead of the trend WRT N.

I don't think admitting that Vi is bussing N is a very good strategy, penguin.

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Shadoweh, you should push one of {penguin_alien, Vi, N}.

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Benmage, no one else cares. You shouldn't, either.

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CES: Votewise CTD is as viable as Pengu right now.

That's not true and you're only saying "Votewise" because you know quite well that there is support for a penguinwagon.

People are just going to tune you out if you keep playing the same note.

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It's not that ugh a post given context.

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Tammy, you should vote Vi.

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can we start a counterwagon on CTD/johhog, please?

No.

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Why are all my potential allies inactive? It's mean.

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CES, you know that wagon ain't going nowhere. Stop being silly.

I think I prefer the descriptor "high concept".

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You're really going to pretend there are 4 scum, Vi?

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Why would he want to stay out of the limelight?

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Even Vi is staying off the CTDwagon; that's how anti-town it is.

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You're really going to pretend there are 4 scum, Vi?

...


Sure!

*gasp* Smiley tell! I must I appreciate this performance.

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Current best scumteam guess:
Penguin, CTD, Benmage, CES

You think benmage and I are pulling a White Flag?

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Okay, Vi. I really don't know what to think. Vi doesn't feel like town, but I have no clue how to read Vi at all. In Castle Zar, I read him as town partly because his thought on directing the vig was matching my own which was truthfully not alignment indicative but it gave me a gut good feeling about him. Here, I really don't have anything. I'd like to trust CES and his judgment, but I don't feel confident at all in my read on CES. I *think* he's town here, but he revoked my membership in the "I can read CES" club months ago, so I'm all hrm. Anyway reasoning for why Vi should be a wagon would be nice. I know CES can give reasons when he really wants to, and I'm not looking for a wall, but something besides I should sheep him would be nice.

See this bullshit push on 'marble (with an obvious motive for Viscum in this game), this nonsense (which matches her scum meta), her pretending that we have 4 scum (going with what's been said in-thread is the natural "safe" approach for scum). I called her out on all three and her only response has been avoidance (okay, granted, that's been her response to most things but it stills counts, dammit + smiley tell). + penguinblorgon basically admitted Vi was bussing N.

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I appear to be the only person who saw something in Llamarble giving a pass to one person and not another for the same reason. Whichever. See petsPick for a game where I had a similar amount of joy being in the same thread as Ll.

DV wasn't even being assertive and contentwise he had doubleplusreasons to lie. The only way to get a contradiction out of it is a focus on form and doing no digging.

I feel vaguely insulted by CES's description of my scum meta, and only vaguely so because it seems that a whole bunch of people think that I'm so incompetent as scum that I would poke
1) CES
2) who had no movement against him at all
3) with a terribly weak throw-away

1) and 2) don't seem very relevant if the purpose is simply to fake scumhunting. 3) is just you admitting that I'm right? People play scum badly all the time.

Did you not read the moderator blurbs when deciding what moderators to put on your lists? I don't see how you can claim that 4/16 is standard when I see two 15p games with 3-man scum teams in this forum alone. 4/16 is a high power game.

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@CES: What are your thoughts on Johhog? (Asking since you were in White Flag with him.)

Vote Vi and I'll tell you.

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What's the likelihood of Vi getting lynched today?

15±15% right now, I'd say.

Also Castle Zar (the 12:3 game I can think of offhand) was hardly an average-power game (2xVig and Gunsmith vs. Goons) so etc.

Yeah, I know, I helped design the set-up. It was a cool set-up with a slight mountainous feel. Is that not what you're expecting here?

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Agreed. Penguinalien, N, and Vi are the only votes allowed.

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Oh geez. How can the N-wagon be larger than the CTD-wagon? CTD in this game is conformity personified. He's doing everything to avoid looking scummy. All his actions are designed to be uncontroversial enough to avoid scrutiny while original enough to not look like buddying.

That doesn't sound plausible.

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I don't think it's something he's doing.

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Vote: N

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wicked-empire-johhog is my favorite call, I think

This is a surrealist masterpiece.

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Ridiculous maybe, but how many scumbags do you know that forget to vote their own counterwagons when it means they'll probably be lynched?

Have you heard of "refuge in audacity"?

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I'm having second thoughts on my leaning town read on CES. His insistence on there being a three person scum team when Vi was saying four is rubbing me the wrong way. The thing is Faraday ran a game at Westeros that started the same day as this game and it was 16 person with a 4 person scum team that was limited in the amount of kills they could make the first four days, so a 3 person scum team with a traitor follows along with the type of balance he used in the game he created at the same time. Does this make sense?

That was pre-announced + this game should be more mountainous. I'm pretty sure the important point was that 4 was too much anyway.

CES - Why did it take you so long to start questioning Llamarble?

I was waiting for him to say he'd towninate.

I see Vi's suspicion of Johhog didn't actually extend to reading his posts.

Vote: Vi

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This sounds like the sort of incoherent mostly-snark thing I would say. I would just hate it if my brand of uncool rubbed off on you.

I think you'll find that it does, in fact, cohere.

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I may have conflated Tierce and you a bit in hindsight. My point was simply being suspicious of someone and not picking up on a fairly explicit softclaim is not all that likely to be the result of diligent scumhunting.

I don't see how anything you mentioned is supposed to be plausible anyway. Accountability, really?

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Or anyone else who takes the time to read Tammy's walls.

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Is it dwa? Because I never thought that was a particularly well thought-out theory.

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I had a dream last Night that Glrok and OGML were accusing me based on 5-year old meta. I think that's an accurate assessment of what I think of Vi's accusations.

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N gave explicit motivation for his change and you're in your own special category regardless. "Does me playing differently necessarily mean that I'm scum?" seems fairly explicit regardless.

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A ton of people suspected Johhog despite him making that post and despite Tammy pointing out the PR possibility in her wallpost (and even I was wavering on the Johhog townread at the end of the day). I don't really see why Vi is being singled out here, especially given that this roster is fairly competent and should have caught that/considered it more.

Apart from the Tierce-Vi thing, it felt like a very natural accompaniment to my vote.

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Vi, can you sum up your vote in a way that doesn't sound like Oh My God CES You Suck?

Well if you want to get down to brass tacks I wouldn't say CES sucks because that would imply that he's Town giving a good-faith effort. In the medium term what he's doing is working out well from a scum POV.

So you're just arguing mild suckitude, is what you're saying? Mafia is a long-term game

CES has spent the entire game thus far tunneling on four people, all of whom are actually pretty likely to be Town and all of whom just happen to have been the major wagons going on without his input. Three of them were targets of opportunity (Llamarble, N, penguin_alien) and I was just an easy pick along the way to lynching N and penguin_alien.

I think a lot of people are acting townish, so I'm not too surprised that my suspicions would align more with the general populace this game (+2 of the 4 are likely scum). Calling yourself a pre-existing major wagon is inaccurate and suspicious (also the only way of making what you said make a lick of sense). "Easy pick along the way to lynching N and penguin_alien", yeah, that's just the accountability garbage then. Have you even ever executed a convoluted plot like that?

Now consider that Johhog softclaiming his power role sounds a

whole lot

like why he was killed (feel free to come up with an alternative explanation; I'll wait). Now you get to choose whether you believe I'm spinning webs of elaborate fake confusion about why he was killed, or if I was actually left out of the loop entirely AKA not scum. I'm legitimately surprised that people who have read a whole lot more of this game than I have (well, the Townies, anyway) have not picked up on this yet.

Did I really need to spell out that faking ignorance is a perfectly legitimate play?

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Just help me lynch Vi, I'm totes bussing.

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And Tomorrow if there's no obvious safe push you just go with whoever winds up with the wagon. It's not that difficult when on a meta level there's no expectation for you to positively contribute.

I got BoPed in Revolution mafia because the town wouldn't let me bus Kanye and that was ages ago. This isn't even close to true.

You have lost all credibility by tacking "and suspicious" on. You wasted words on that feeble attempt to drive home your irrelevant point?

I'm not one to let a "overestimating one's own wagon" scum tell pass by unnoticed.

Given how much :effort: I've put into this game I think it's an unlikely one.

It doesn't take much :effort: to say you didn't know something. It's not a particularly intricate play.

I gots ta say, though, you're really stroking my ego about my scum game. It's a lot better than what I remember people (and Tammy) saying.

See, I was actually worried your scum play seemed unreasonably bad at first. Good to know.

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Am I hallucinating or did ces just respond to Vi a couple hours before he actually made that post? I think I need to go back to sleep.

I would've responded sooner but board didn't let me post for a few hours.

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Who is your current scumteam pick?
Vi, same thing to you.

Vi, OGML, you. If you weren't being literal with the scum team thing, you can replace yourself with Shadoweh.

Are you caught up, OGML?

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And how many people other than myself have you seen CES talk about to any significant degree today?

Your scumminess is very distracting, it's true.

Tammy, Konowa already beat it to me as the main thing is the slide off of CTD. CTD is certainly savvy enough to have dropped a subtle hint and Shadoweh catching it (or a team mate catching it + daytalk) would make her line of play feel very natural to me.

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Obviously I looked for one, 'marble. Not sure why you'd assume I hadn't.

Vi: In ADwD I thought my team's traitor was town right up to when he was lynched (and originally thought he flipped traitor for the other team). I guess I can't prove that I missed Johhog breadcrumbing a PR here, but my ability to read subtle hints is provably awful. Besides, if he did wouldn't you be able to find it too now?

1) Don't call me Vi.
2) I didn't want to be needlessly negative but daytalking scum buddy did seem more likely from the get-go.
3) As for me being able/unable to find it, scum being an informed minority seems relevant here. I know of traitors on westeros leaving clues simply by making a post that groups all the scum together semi-conspicuously.

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OGML, why did you think benmage is scum?

- On the one hand, CES trying to push a weird almost BoP-type argument against Vi today is kinda shitty considering the general suspicion Johhog drew despite both his and your posts. A ton of people suspected him regardless, and unless you think a ton of people were just posturing about it, I don't really think ignorance of Johhog's softclaim is any kind of scumtell. Also, I know Vi doesn't read large portions of the game D1 in detail (for example, I remember Vi telling me after Castle Zar that he didn't really read any of MoI's posts) so him missing something like that doesn't seem farfetched to me.

I didn't really "push" anything. It's a fairly minor scum tell and it seemed like a nice thing to have accompanying my vote. I didn't even care enough to check if my memory of events was correct.

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I didn't really "push" anything. It's a fairly minor scum tell and it seemed like a nice thing to have accompanying my vote. I didn't even care enough to check if my memory of events was correct.

"I push crappy arguments just in case it helps people vote Vi"

When you're actually pushing the "smiley tell" it might be time to wonder if you're digging your nails a little too deep into the bottom of the barrel while you scrape for things to pick out.

It's more "I will mention tells that are kind of neat but not all that strong in passing for rhetorical purposes." You're just making it sound bad by pretending I'm pushing them.

Can the competent people finally get round to looking at Vi? She's being pretty obvious.

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Well yeah, CTD was scum. If you actually believe the silly chainsaw defense accusation, then I must ask you why CTD would feel the need to defend from Johhog in any way.

and I dislike CES's push that the scum team was most likely three and that Vi was trying to sow confusion about the size of the scum team.

That's really not the accusation. I don't think Vi was trying to do anything anti-town, she just made the safe/standard play of going with what had already been said.

@Konowa, not sure why you're interested as your wording was simply ambiguous.

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Like, I want to type some snarky response here about disclaimers on every post, but I can't bring myself to do it because of how abjectly stupid this point is. I partly blame my mystification that people are actually assuming CES is arguing in good faith here.

You already admitted previously that you were basing it on what had been said in thread, so don't talk to me about disclaimers. Do you deny that you'd make that play as scum?

I also have no idea why CES thinks he is Vi, I'm pretty sure Vi pointed out some stuff that I was replying to? Insomnia makes me bad at reading (and I fell asleep twice while making this post) but yes. Actually now that I've had a chance to read over Wicked's reply he seems both a little sensical and in good humor. If I were to get involved in this 1 vs 1 that people seem happy to watch I'd be in favor of lynching Vi, but I really dislike how one-dimensional this is.

All Vi has said recently is describing you in terms of food. It was definitely a response to me.

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It certainly seems like a push considering it's been the focal point of the Day's conversation. Re: the underlined, how much of a damn would you have given about it as scum?

Check my posts following me making that point - one fluffy cohere/coherent post and I point out it was based on a misreading the very next post. I think I would've cared at least a little bit about not looking hypocritical as scum.

Also, I tried looking through CTD's ISO and literally could not figure out what could possibly have been a crumb (and evidently, you couldn't either) so assuming he signaled Shadoweh in some way seems weird to me (Q: are scum typically told whether a traitor exists or no?). I don't know what good traitor play is on this site, but it seems equally plausible that CTD just tried to cut himself off from any ties to the mafia since traitor seems like the most expendable member of the team.

I agree it doesn't sound too plausible but neither does Shadoweh's version of events, so I see no reason to discount it. (A: no.)

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The obvious solution is to lynch Vi. We get a scum flip to make up for you feeling you like a slack-jawed yokel and I'm sure the next Day won't be as one-dimensional.

Vi's only accusation of note is still that she's being so obvious that it has lead to me being focused on her.

P.S. the scum in that quote is you, Vi. That was a pretty substanceless wagon analysis. Do you even believe in wagon analysis as a general principle?

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Um, yes? I've definitely tried to replicate the Scumputer in my own notes on a few occasions (albeit without success). I'm not really sure where to go with substanceless since you drew your own conclusion from it, snide or otherwise.

I was just pointing out that even if wagon analysis was meaningful, your argument would still be superboring because it assumes a counterfactual.

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If you want to talk about tunneling, Vi, have you seen OGML's posts Today?

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OGML was not the one tunneling in that sentence.

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I don't know why you're assuming he hatequit or why you're even connecting the anti-Tierce nonsense to the replacement. You should be able to see the problem with OGML's posting regardless.

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Let's see.

Genuine but obviously independent of alignment.
Genuine but mostly independent of alignment.
Vaguely townish but not that spectacular.
Although I agree with the general principle of strong players not faking town tells, there's not really a question whether she would fake something regarding Johhog - it seems obviously necessary; maybe if no one was paying attention to her.
I don't see why you quoted that last post.

The first two points especially suggest to me that you have no clue of how to read someone like Vi. I don't doubt that Vi can fake her town tone. Just look at her points against me. There's not a hint of analysis to be found in them; it's closer to a rejection of thought. The only times she's managed a point that seemed credible is when she's distorted the truth. Hint: see what's missing from Vi's last few posts.

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Having found you scummy and then having trouble coming up with specific points myself earlier D2, I am not so bothered by Vi not having much beyond 'it makes the votes / game make sense.'

That's what not what Vi's saying though. She's absolutely pretending to have things. Do you have some kind of Revolution mafia related trauma where you can't side with me?

I'm ready to choose a side on the matter now and if I'm wrong then fine CES, maybe I don't know how to read someone like Vi. Who is like Vi but not Vi?

In this sense (experienced but merely a semi-competent scum game), I'd say you and Nacho'd be reasonable analogues in this game. Shadoweh too, maybe.

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But ces did you admit in Post 777 that vi hadn't read johhogs posts and therefore didn't know he'd crumbed a power role? Because if you do believe that then wouldn't you have to believe he wasn't part of the scum team that most likely killed him? And since you called Nachomama's scum list a surrealistic masterpiece in Post 736 which also had johhog as scum, why aren't you calling him out as not reading posts while scumhunting. What's your current read on nacho mama?

Technically, there's an implicit "(or Vi's faking ignorance)" in that post but regardless I think Johhog's thing was obvious enough that I would expect a 3-man scum team to pick up on it. I can't say I looked into who suspected Johhog after his death. It's not really a game changer, that tell. Nacho's in my "scummy by dint of PoE" tier.

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Why don't you respond to my #921, Vi?

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So your role is a slightly stronger (but 2-shot) version of the one in Zach's game, Vi? How much, if any, reading did you do overnight?

CES - What's the last scum game you played? Not as a hydra or a replacement. I can't find one and am tired of looking.

My westerosi scum games are actually 2 of my last 3 scum games to satisfy the criterion. I played another offsite game around the time I played 88 but I assume that doesn't help.

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NY 146.

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I need to think and I'm busy.

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The thing about Vi's claim is although I can imagine her remembering that role from NY146, I doubt that she'd also remember Faraday's involvement as a reviewer. (Also, she's not getting lynched and stuff.)

Empire, if I had given an early opinion on the 'marblewagon, it would've been to reject it based on readability shenanigans. So the comparison to Abarat and White Flag makes little sense.

Vote: Shadoweh

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Why do you think benmage is scum, OGML?

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CES, why did you say the CTD wagon was anti-town last Day?

It reminded me of the Team Mafia mislynch - just people inexplicably hating on CTD. They don't appreciate his Swissness.

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but seriously, self-meta revolts me, so I'll let one of these other fine upstanding sheeple let you know what my scum game looks like

Bad? That's really all I remember.

Deadline's tomorrow, people. Let's get some votes on Shadoweh.

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Bleh. 24 hours extra just draws things out without giving us extra options. I wanted a flip.

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I'm sure I'd respond to you if you had something to say, UT.

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I would think it was pretty clear that I count you and Tammy as townreads because I'm like, actually trying to get you to go along with me on stuff. I don't negotiate with scum.

Weren't you just complaining about false dichotomies?

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Not having an opinion either way?

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Who did Zach replace again? Right Wjr. Oh he's confirmed vanilla. Still seems scummy though.

The specifics of the result also confirm him as town.

Vote: OGML

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That does seem like an accurate assessment.

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I missed it too at first but there is a line in the middle bit of the post on me (#859) that does at least say something.

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Honestly, the main reasons I lean CES are BoP, PoE, and lack of town-ness.
I expect way more of him to an 'I doubt he would be this weak as town' point and most of the rest of the crew I have reservations about lynching.

You realize that the last time you applied a BoP argument to me I was trying to bus my scum buddy for pretty much the whole game, right?

OGML's one post of anything is the definition of keyword-based scumhunting. N's posts are littered with signs he can't produce and is trying to deny it (see the final "oh, I'd been waiting for this ongoing game end to make the most inane push on Empire imaginable" post for the clearest example). That slot has only done scummy things; that there is not more on them is purely a function of their play.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That's actually pretty much exactly what BoP is. I also don't really see how you can go for that type of argument in the same game that you're voting me on PoE grounds on D3 (especially if N/benmage turn out to be scum).

As for the OGML / N slot, their scumhunting has been weak and they have been annoying, but N's manner of getting mad and the looseness of style they both had make me think they won't flip scum.
Pretty similar to Benmage's laziness, really.

That just seems like lazy pattern matching. N's anger was wholly misplaced and N is, fundamentally, not a bad scum player - think of it as a competent scum response to lack of content. Benmage's town tell is another man's scum tell so I'm not really sure why you would mention him.

Seems like Nacho would need to be scum if N is, given D1. Which was also when N was absent from the Penguin wagon.

Why?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well when I say BoP, I am more talking of usefulness below expectations.

Personally, I consider that to be Vi's fault.

If N does turn out to be scum, then the late day one situation was scumlynch about to beat townlynch and I find it hard to believe a scum wouldn't have helped tip the balance the other way; Nacho is best fit for that scum.
Obviously rereads will happen with new info etc, but for 'does N make sense on a team' purposes Nacho being a scum possibility makes N a more viable scum possibility.

Nacho the turbobusser?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Just turbobusser in general, 'marble. I don't think Nacho spending effort to save his buddy N makes notably more sense than more straightforward conclusions (i.e. if a bunch of townies showed up to swing the wagon to p_a late, then maybe that swing was driven by townies).

What is it that scum like to do? Oh right, pretend their partners don't exist while they go about their evil little plots to get some townies lynched.

What kind of circumstances is it then, you think, that motivates scum to defend their partners?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Just turbobusser in general, 'marble. I don't think Nacho spending effort to save his buddy N makes notably more sense than more straightforward conclusions (i.e. if a bunch of townies showed up to swing the wagon to p_a late, then maybe that swing was driven by townies).

I believe that if N / OGML is scum then it is less likely the swing was driven by townies.
Even if Nacho is a turbobusser, it's hard to turn down an opportunity to turn a correct lynch into a mislynch, particularly since it fits with things Nacho said that day.

You could also see it as an opportunity to bus despite obvious options being available. That's why it's called turbobussing. As for the first thing, sure, that's true in isolation but that shouldn't mean ignoring evidence that that is at least mostly what happened.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

This question is fluffy garbage designed to take the focus away from anything of actual importance, and its really hilarious that after repeatedly asking for a case on ben this is all you want to respond to out of it.

Your post consists of 1 minor point that's valid but not that interesting, random defense of yourself out of nowhere, ben being ben, accusations of people defending people. None of those posts you quoted make a lick of sense as a buddy defending a buddy - zero incentive. So yeah, I'm going to focus on the bit that's alignment-relevant.

How can you dismiss my point as "fluffy garbage" when these defense accusations make up most of your original content?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

N hasn't played in any mafia games since replacing out. The timing of it (during the Night) also suggests that that is not what happened.

There is definitely some stuff in OGML's last few posts that's genuine but nothing that really relates to his alignment.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Town mislynching doesn't really take much + you're implicitly just arguing that Vi and me can't have an argument while both town which is silly.

(Really, if you ever feel the need to phrase your argument in generalities such as those, it's probably a bad argument. Good arguments survive contact with the thread.)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Yeah, those posts are basically pointless (except #737). If I have a dream that's relevant to a mafia game, it seems remiss not to mention it, really. You misunderstood #835; I was just giving both my Top 3 and my pick for scum team.

I think that if the scumteam does not contain CES, and we're not wrong about TET, any scumteam composed of the remaining options should be in tatters by now.
CES is good at town, and so are lots of others. We haven't lived up to our expected collective proficiency, which I find much more likely if one of our highest-potential-usefulness players is scum.

Again, generalities. I've definitely played worse than this regardless (ADwD being the obvious example.)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Contemplating generalities is a decent starting point but you have to connect it to the thread at some point. If you look at the mislynches, penguin_alien getting lynched over N certainly wasn't my doing and I wasn't here for the UTmislynch (that example might be a little unfair since Konowa softclaimed to me but eh); looks to me like we definitely could've lynched scum at either deadline and I had nothing to do with it not happening on either Day.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

V/LA for the weekend.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We've had 2 Days worth of stuff to analyze. There's plenty of stuff that concretely went wrong so look at that if you want to look for a cause, 'marble. Hint: not me.

Last night when I was reading over the game, the sense that I got of ces today is that he's mostly arguing about argument types, and talking about how scum buddies interact and less about actual scum. CES - who do you think ogml's partners are?

I can't help it if 'marble won't listen to me and keeps pushing my lynch on erroneous grounds. I'm not sure who OGML's partners are. There are three people that definitely don't look town - Shadoweh, benmage and Nacho but they only look mildly townie on a closer look. Benmage would fit as a partner given OGML's genuine disgust.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES trying to tie me to benmage is a hilariously transparent about-face. Declaring intent to hammer.

Do you disagree with my reasoning that your attack on benmage makes more sense as scum-on-scum than as scum-on-town? Because if so, what is your issue here? Am I not to supposed to answer questions and share my thoughts?

I'm annoyingly busy. I should have time tomorrow.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Or we could lynch OG "barely even pretending to scumhunt" ML? That one has the advantage of definitely getting you a scum flip.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Benmage would fit as a partner given OGML's genuine disgust.

Explain this?

benmage is a great scum player and instead of doing anything, is lurking the days away
OGML is frustrated as a result

That sounds more complicated than is likely here; I'd go with the more straightforward option that OGML thinks partnerbenmage is playing poorly and being obvious (although there could be an element of benmage being more active in the QT to it). Disgust was maybe a bad choice of word because that specifically makes more sense with OGML attacking benmagetown; really the focus of that sentence was "genuine".

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Or we could actually scumhunt and lynch OGML?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I responded to the relevant bit (i.e. that genuineness simplifies interpretation but is not a town tell in isolation)? I know enough of OGML's meta to know he's not this bad as town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Obviously I disagree. Now you're asking questions for the sake of making noise. Even if I humor you long enough to think that you reallllly think I'm scum, thinking that I'm scum with ben is just so ass backwards it hurts. You're saying that I came into this game, looked at the state of things and decided now was the perfect time to start bussing a partner that 90% of the town wants to give a FREE FUCKING PASS instead of doing nothing about ben and letting him keep his FREE FUCKING PASS.

I find this to be a fairly useful answer, so I'm going to have to disagree on the noise front (noise: would you really expect even mildly competent scum to go for that?). But, yeah, that seemed like a fairly plausible series of events until you gave this answe; I've seen multiple people do that, I'd definitely do it without any hesitation. Attacking a scum partner now when you expect the partner to draw suspicion later is not at all a bad approach.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

P-edit: Actually now that you've brought it up, OGML hit a couple of those in #1469 so the townread has gotten a bit stronger. And I was waiting to hear what Nacho had to say before interjecting.

That post didn't look connected to the thread at all. Anger is a perfectly understandable reaction in many cases but there was nothing here that that post works as a reaction to. Recognize the shortcut you're making.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

'Marble, get on the side of scumhunting, please.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You saw it yesterday. Trust your past self (or just see it again? It's not that hard - N is clearly dancing around his failure to contribute and none of OGML's content survives contact with thinking).

If you're not voting me based on glimpses from orbit, then I don't know why you're voting me at all. I wouldn't encourage people to look at the bigger picture as that's generally just bad play.

I would go with Shadoweh, Nacho and OGML as my scum team right now. Not because of wagon analysis, mind you, as that is an abomination (make an a priori assessment of what's likely, look at what happened, pretend your initial assessment still has merit because of, I don't know, magic, draw a faulty conclusion).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The interventions are as boring to me as the recurring attacks on TET. I don't think it'd be productive here at any rate since Tammy's position in her last post seems perfectly reasonable (yes, that post was scummy and pointing that out is fine).

I'm confused as to what benefit I'm supposed to be deriving from this. I need people to get stuck in and see OGMLscum.

P-edit: yes.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

So, uh, I guess I should've asked someone to check if I got lynched.

I'll post something when I'm not dead tired and have a clue as to what's going on, I guess?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I still feel very lost and don't have nearly enough time to get as stuck in as I should.

Shadoweh-benmage seems most plausible to me at this point *-*. Shadoweh's defense of benmage seems as out of place as benmage giving himself a pat on the back for his scumhunting while doing almost zilch to get 'marble lynched.

Assorted:
'marble, Nacho also didn't vote me after I quickhammered a cop in the Zachmicro. I don't think it's a bad strategy for scum to just let the town mislynch me based on paranoia when possible; the Greater Idea mislynches on me definitely tended to be town-driven. Also, I put you at L-1 after you rejected readability shenanigans (possibly implicitly); you're not a straightforward read this game at all.
I did actually think Petyr was scum for a good part of that D1, Tammy.
Empire is completely right about #1529.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Your thinking has been very shallow this game.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Your thinking has been very shallow this game.

Nice abstract dig....

Seems fairly concrete to me, with the context of #1705.

Why aren't you voting, CES?

Doesn't feel very relevant to me right now.

CES - You said it's shadoweh and benmage at this point, but what happened to your OGML suspicion?

It was brought down by the moose of having no partners.

I have some reading to do, but we just need to find a confident townread and it won't be CES

"actually obviously town" is a thing someone's said to describe my play in a game in the last month, just fyi. I'm not magic, just competent.

Can we talk about Zach's death for a moment? Yes, he was absolutely clear once Nacho flipped Goon, but... why Zach? Simply a random choice among obvTown? Are the last scum more afraid of him than of Empire, Tammy or I? What happened there? This game seems to have more obvTown than the scum know what to do with, but they jumped from PR hunting to eliminating someone who was a guaranteed vanilla and who generally opposed the Nacho lynch until the hammer. Why Zach and not one of the three of us?

Tammy and Empire read Town, but... I don't really understand this kill. The reasoning I can see is superficial, and I don't like that. Ideas?

I doubt scum are putting that much thought into it at a moment like this; it could just be a matter of Zach's conftown status making him stand out just that bit more.

benmage giving himself a pat on the back for his scumhunting while doing almost zilch to get 'marble lynched.

How is that reflective of his alignment rather than Ben just being Ben? He seems like he has a large enough ego to do this as either alignment.

The scummy thing is the second part (the first part just serves to rule out some explanations) - from my point of view benmage is looking like the crucial lynch we need to secure a win and that should only be more for benmage and 'marble.

Most of the people alive didn't pick up on it and there's something that really makes me think Nacho didn't.

Which was?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Yarr.

Vote: benmage