/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Empire]

Vote: Shadoweh

[Empire]

Hey, we're literally in a game called "Mafia in #YOLOville", I think I'm allowed to open with super trashy music.

(Also, don't you dare fuck with Cerulean's sig,

Tammy

I worked really hard on it.)

[Empire]

Boring, the lot of you.

I thought my posts were pretty entertaining, if I do say so myself.

Unvote, vote: DV

[Empire]

What is Shadoweh's alignment and why, Mr. State Building?

Don't know, but I think that will become clear over time since I'd like to say I have an ok grasp of her meta. I want to say I'm leaning town over the whole SUPER TOWN VOTING BLOC thing but I think that'd be naive of me so I'll probably end up sifting through her games again once she's posted more.

Though I was hoping she'd flail and flip out because I like watching people suffer.

But then DV had to go and post #24, which seemed like an easy, opportunistic vote especially given that I know CTD has suggested this before as town so I'm not really getting why he'd push that somewhat strongly.

[Empire]

Vote Empire

scum is scum.

Nah dude, pretty sure I'm obvtown already -- I posted a trashy music video link as my game opener. That's a pretty slam-dunk towntell.

Would also vote Konowa at this point. But first I need to figure out what is going on in his avatar.

Why Konowa?

[Empire]

Goddamn this thread blew up in between class.

I have more problems with Empire's DV vote though. It's craplogicy and hypocritical.

Erm, how is it bad logic or hypocritical? Voting someone for proposing an unorthodox strategy on page 1 is just about the laziest and lamest reason to vote someone. It doesn't require any real thought for scum to hang their vote on and it's especially jarring when you consider that you actually have proposed this as town before. I think the post was scummy and absolutely deserving of my vote.

Empire, is your vote on me serious?

Yes, my vote is serious: see above. Also, in response to your #63, how is anyone supposed to get the impression that your vote wasn't serious? From when I read it, it damn well looked like you thought CTD suggesting a massclaim seemed scummy and I thought that it was jarring as fuck that you were making what seemed to be a serious vote based on something that should be null at worst. I'm not going to sit and limply ask you why you posted something I'm already perceiving as scummy -- if I see something I think is scummy, I'm not going to waste my time and I'm just going to vote for it.

~~~

Obnoxious wallpost should be coming later tonight or tomorrow once everyone's gotten their chance to chime in more in the thread.

[Empire]

EBWOP: "something you know should be null at worst."

[Empire]

Llamarble, can you explain your townreads please? And how does Benmage come across as pro-town at this point for you?

[Empire]

The thought was that me saying it was scummy, specifically mentioning how CTD has played before, would reveal that I know CTD asks for a massclaim every game.

Um ok, it didn't come across that way at all to me given what seemed to be a serious tone. What do you think of Konowa's and Llamarble's votes on you? Do you see them as being opportunistic as well or something else?

Does Tammy normally overreact like this?

Yes. I thought you knew this from Castle Zar though?

It's not inherently scummy to be critical of a controversial strategy suggestion, I've been attacked over suggesting massclaim more often by town than by scum in the past. That he claimed meta reasons to suspect me

was

jarring, hence why I asked about their source. Besides, voting someone for lazy and lame reasons on page 1 is par for the course. So much for crap logic. As for hypocrisy, his vote was no more "opportunistic" than your vote on him.

My experience is different, I guess. That angle of attack is the perfect one for scum in my view because it doesn't take any real thought and it's really easy to look pro-town by looking all put off by someone suggesting something controversial, which was what I thought DV was doing. And obviously, I don't view my vote as opportunistic at all -- for example, I didn't vote DV because he's an "easy target" (and I'd argue that he isn't an easy target in this roster given that most everyone here knows him and how he plays).

~~~

@Tierce:

I thought about what DV was saying re: his CTD vote on the way back from class today and my mind went back to Sherlock Mafia. I read through his ISO there again where he entered the game in a much similar fashion -- do something to draw lots of attention to himself to see how people react and the way he responded to Magister Ludi in that game is very much the same as here (#40). I looked through the game you linked to compare and he seemed a lot more "by-the-book" and more concerned with appearing pro-town. Do you think he's playing differently from Sherlock and, if so, why? (Asking you since you were there with me.) Personally, I'm starting to lean town here but it's not a strong read.

~~~

Ok, so the long reads wallpost is going to have to wait a bit more. There are a lot of people who are still promising content (Tammy and Wickedestjr in particular) and I feel like I'm dogpaddling through the thread because most of the people here are hard for me to read but whatever bro #YOLO.

Unvote, vote: Llamarble

[Empire]

Why do you think [Llamarble]'s scum?

Benmage summed it up pretty succintly in #104 but to add onto that -- I really don't like his list of reads and the rationale behind them in #82 + #96. I think they're pretty shallow and he sometimes focuses on things that aren't alignment indicative at all. For example, Benmage "commenting on relevant things" doesn't seem like anything that would even remotely shed light on his alignment and the CTD scumread for the link within a "short thought" post gave me a wat reaction. It just reminds me of his early play in TM 2012 White Flag where he mostly just commented on meaningless things and his scumhunting came off as superficial.

[Empire]

I think I did a good job imitating my townplay at the beginning of TM12.
You can wat all you like, but I am smart and look at things others don't consider. Simple != unimportant.
You need to read more closely; the relevance of Benmage commenting on relevant things was already available in my posts.

I did read your posts closely. If I'm understanding it right, you're saying that Benmage tends to play a more pro-town game as scum (which is actually not a bad summary of what I think re: his meta -- I remember reading somewhere that Benmage hates the lurking scum strategy so he's always intense and on top of the game when he's scum; conversely, the less aggressive/more laid back/lazier he appears to be, the more likely he is to be town). I guess I just want you to be more specific? How exactly is Benmage appearing more pro-town to you in a way that suggests he's scum? What "relevant things" is he commenting on? And what do you think about the substance of the back-and-forth CTD and I had?

I am going to put forth the theory that Empire is scum and therefore can't join the Townie Voting block after all. I've been getting weird feelings from his posts, for a guy who is fairly confident in being able to read people it is downright weird to me to see him be so unsure of how to do that. Empire, what exactly about this game is making it hard to read people that you seem to have been able to read perfectly well in every other game I've seen you in?

Erm, the only people here I think I can read with any amount of confidence are Tierce and Tammy, and to a much lesser extent, DV, Vi, Benmage, and you. I think Tierce is town, Tammy hasn't posted enough for me to get a reliable read on her (though I'd wager she's town at the moment given her reaction to Konowa in #98). Benmage seems town primarily due to some meta I have on him as well (see above), Vi is basically being Vi and nothing he's posted here sways me one way or the other. I still don't know about you either, I don't think your entrance to the game in #26 is scummy like some people have said though. And I already mentioned why I'm leaning town on DV.

I can't read CES for shit and I struggle to read him whenever we play together + reading games he's in. N's fooled me once as scum in NY 160 and it took me 'til late game to read N correctly as scum in Black Flag Nightless (I initially read him as town here). Konowa's pretty tough for me to read too since he tends to be pretty lurky/low content in most games and I had to read him as town via interactions with flipped scum in Castle Zar. And even though I read Johhog pretty easily as town in that same game, it was pretty much primarily due to his own play there and I'm not really familiar with his meta. My sample size with Nacho is also pretty small and he's one of the guys I'm testing some meta out by following his games but I haven't come up with anything definitive there (mostly tonal differences, I think he's a lot more detached and emotionless as scum).

Then of course there's the people I haven't played with before (e.g., CTD, Llamarble, penguin_alien, Wickedestjr).

I lost a lot of my confidence after Castle Zar: even though I correctly nailed all three scum via a 5 person PoE list, I ended up lynching the two townies in that group which led me to second guess everything pretty hardcore. Ever since that game, it's basically been a project for me to rebuild that ability. The difficulty this game comes from the fact that, combined with what I just said re: me losing confidence, this is a pretty god tier roster, so there will always be a tinge of paranoia or worry that I'm misreading something.

What gave you the impression that I could confidently read people?

[Empire]

Have class all day today, so here's something quick.

So you can confidentally read nearly half the playerlist but you're swimming for reads? Where I got the 'impression' that in general you aren't a wishy washy guy is from reading this in particular: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=23930 though it's the impression I've gotten from watching you in general.

Yes. That's six people. Of those six, two of them (Tammy and you) haven't really posted enough for me to get a confident read and one of them is Vi. The other three are some form of townread. I don't know what else you're expecting from me on page 6? I'm not half the man I used to be.

Your Llamarble vote doesn't strike me as you analyzing him and finding him scum, it looked like throwing a rope at a log and hoping you can ride out the current on it. Even your questioning in the above post is weak and kind of like 'eh i just want you to talk more I guess'. It's not the voice of someone questioning their suspect.

The two are not mutually exclusive and going on fishing expeditions in the early game is perfectly fine, no? And how do you expect someone to address a suspect then? If you're talking about acting all indignant and shit, I don't really feel like acting this way.

Maybe it's because I don't have someone like Thor insulting me this game.

Also I am probably the wrong person to try and convince I'm scum, I remembered my glasses today and my pm clearly says townie obvtown.

Pretty sure I didn't try to convince you you're scum?

And yet you still won.

Yeah, but I don't think I really did anything other than look town by slowly losing my sanity over the course of the game.

[Empire]

Just got back from class and I'm exhausted. I want to look into Llamarble's and Benmage's meta a lot more closely before I churn out my big reads wall. Listing the games here for my own purposes, if anyone has any others, feel free to link them.

Llamarble:

TOWN: Revolution Mafia, Abarat, Mini 1412 (as Norlkaz)
SCUM: TM 2012 White Flag, Outwitted

Benmage:

TOWN: Happy Tree Friends, Mini 1394, A Dance With Dragons
SCUM: Scummies Winvitational, Heroes of Comedy

[Empire]

I know we haven't, that's why I thought it was weird that when Tierce asked, you scrambled to have some kind of read on me. Would it really have killed you to honestly say you don't know? Also, is Vi really that hard to read? (honest question because I don't think it is). Again though, you don't feel like someone who feels like he has 3-6 townie buddies to win the game with. Do you not value hard town reads?

Well, #32 was supposed to be me saying "I don't really know but if I had a gun to my head right now, I'd say she's probably town". And yes, my experience with Vi-town is that he tends to vary between obvtown (Micro 59) to largely unreadable (Castle Zar) so he can be pretty hard to read, though there are some meta markers I've been using (see below). And of course I value hard townreads, I'm like a (diet) version of Regfan where I feel like a better "townhunter" than scumhunter, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still early and I can't exactly make miracles happen. For me to act all confident right now would be completely disingenuous and dumb posturing (and this is coming from me of all people).

~~~

Alright, so while writing this, I realized this thing was going to be way too long so I decided to break it up into two posts -- first one here will contain my (unfortunately few) townreads and the next one will contain some unfinished thoughts on some of the players that have posted thus far. If you guys need clarification or elaboration on anything, let me know.

TOWN (Strongest to Weakest):

Tierce:

I’ll just skip the part where I say that I’m pretty confident in my ability to read Tierce and say that she’s hitting a lot of the markers that I know of her town play (e.g., her activity level, the way she's been thinking about her reads, and her general attitude). Her early attack on Konowa in #40 for meta related reasons is something I buy from her completely and matches how I know she thinks of reads as town -- I also think Tierce-scum would have coasted on that read rather than attack for it since she has a very low opinion of her scum play and would take all the townreads on her she could get. Her sarcastic response to Benmage in #44 and her snarky responses in her back-and-forth with CES starting with #119 matches her town attitude to a T, Tierce-scum doesn’t have the self-confidence to reply to both players that way and would likely have been much more toned down. The questioning/conversation DV starting at #58 comes off as her genuinely trying to read him, no BS mafia theory or jumping to conclusions about his alignment as is the staple of Tierce-scum cases. All in all, fairly confident she's town here. For more Tierceology, read this post.

Benmage:

Expanding on what I brought up in #156 -- reading through his town games reinforces for me the idea that the less intense Benmage appears to be, the more likely he is to be town (Mini 1394 and #190 there being a particularly good example of town Benmage putting off reading/getting too involved in the thread for a while even after coming back from being busy) and that's the impression that I get throughout a lot of his early play. In contrast, reading through his play in Heroes of Comedy, he's a lot more aggressive (like, A LOT more, the difference is really significant), and he seemed to spend most of the time he was alive deliberately antagonizing MoI and not really giving a shit about his motivations but trying to discredit him as much as possible. I'm not getting the feeling he's doing that at all with Llamarble in this game, his questioning seems a lot more geared at trying to gauge his alignment and tonally doesn't come across as super aggressive as it did in his scum game, especially given his frustration in #194 with Llamarble not being upfront with his reasoning -- haven't read through Winvitational yet since I'm about to be hauled off to a friend's BBQ, but I'm strongly leaning town here based off what I'm seeing.

DV:

Already mentioned this before, but my experience with DV is that he tends to be a lot more image conscious as scum and a lot more concerned with "proper" town play, as town he has no qualms about throwing himself into the limelight to get reactions from people -- in light of that, his explanation for voting CTD in the early game in #63 + #64 and I think scum-DV would probably have entered the game by doing something more "typical" (for lack of a better word). Tonally, DV as town is a lot more self deprecating and very wishy washy since he seems to tend to get caught up in the many ways to interpret something and the kind of second guessing he does on Johhog and Llamarble in #161 + #204 matches that aspect of his town play to a T. Also, I generally get the sense that he's genuinely finding it hard to get reads this game (#205) but I guess I could be biased here?

[gap]

Vi:

I've been taking largely a wait-and-see approach with Vi this game given that it seems far more like trolly, unreadable Vi from Castle Zar rather than obvtown Vi from Tierce's Micro. That said, I think the small summary Tierce provided in #196 is pretty accurate, but to add onto that -- scum-Vi appears to have a different mentality, is more interested in discrediting people and making them look bad (largely by taking quotes out of context -- see: Black Flag Nightless for a decent example of what I mean) and I don't get that impression this game. Weak read, though.

Tammy:

Another very very weak read, mostly based off her reaction to Konowa in #98 -- that kind of snarky, passive-aggressive reaction is far more likely to come from Tammy as town. Still waiting for her to come back with some :content: and :effort: so I can be more comfortable with this read but that's where I'm at right now.

[Empire]

These are probably the closest I've come to scumreads though these are really unfinished sketches still, so expect to see a larger concentration of waffliness here.

MISC. THOUGHTS:

Llamarble:

I looked through some of his town games and the way he's been reacting to the wagon here seems pretty similar to the way he reacted in Revolution Mafia with the whole "stop interrupting me, let me do my thing, I can't solve the game this fast" attitude. I tried comparing it to his reaction to getting wagoned as scum in TM 2012 White Flag but the circumstances were too different for me to make a call (e.g., he got lynched rather late in the game so his line of defense was too different). When I looked at his recent town game as Norlkaz, there was an almost manic attention to detail and I'm not seeing that this game at all -- his reads very much feel lazy to me. However, this could very well be a product of the fact that he replaced in rather late into the game as opposed to the early game nature of the stuff he's posted here. But then again, even in his early play in Abarat, there was still somewhat that same attention to detail (see: #58 directed at Shinori) and I think that's sorely lacking here. Looking at his play in Outwitted, he seems to toss reads from nowhere and they also come off as lazy -- this is the same impression I'm getting this game overall.

Konowa:

I looked through the games Tierce referenced in #40 and I think her take on them is pretty much on the money, so I don't really get how Konowa came to the conclusion that Tierce is town so easily in #28 and I'm not really sure I buy what he says in #46 + #47 -- the last game they played together was Mafia Rarefaction Segunda where he misread her when she was town and that partly led to her lynch so I would expect to see at least some sort of trepidation this game. In that context, the overconfidence of that read. The rest of his play in particular feels like disengaged sniping (ex: #65) and him impliedly being put off by Tammy's reaction in #99 is also really weird considering we all just got out of a game together (Castle Zar) where Tammy ended up flipping out at NS when he suspected her so he should know about the way Tammy-town reacts to negative attention.

CTD:

I initially liked the way he came across in his early posts w.r.t. his vote on me but I'm not a fan of #189 at all, it feels like he's trying to fan the flames of the argument Shadoweh and I have been having while at the same time expressing his support for a Llamarble wagon.

N:

My initial impression was that N wouldn't do the whole low content trolling thing as scum in this game, but #197 is weak, comes out of nowhere, and doesn't comment on any of the other major wagons that have happened this game. Him asking how many people are on the scumteam here also gives me bad vibes, considering he asked a similar type of question in NY 160 as scum, so it almost feels like he's trying to feign ignorance.

~~~

Would wager there's probably scum up there.

[Empire]

EBWOP:

In that context, the overconfidence of that read

doesn't sit well with me at all

.

God, I am the worst editor.

[Empire]

My only problem with Empire is that our reads are mostly matching where they

should

be, and that makes me somewhayt paranoid because I have revealed those reads already. (Which is part of the reason I've just been sniping reads instead of explaining them--I've seen Empire-scum sheeping me and trying to ride his buddy's lynch.) But dayum, that's content, keep it coming.

(Pretty sure I beat you to the punch on a lot of them, chew on that fucker.)

<_<
>_>

[Empire]

Read through Benmage's play in invitational, it's a little different from Heroes of Comedy in that he generally comes off a lot more friendly and amicable, I'd argue overly so, which I feel is different from his play here.

OK, BBQ time.

[Empire]

It's the N and Konowa reads I'm worried about. Your Townreads are lovely and keep 'em coming. I'll be chilling in Paris (literally, the city is COLD in February wtf give me my Mediterranean weather) while you have to churn out content, so etc. (>")>

Well, I think us coming to the same conclusion isn't a big deal generally? We did agree on pretty much everything in Alduskkel's Mini Normal after all. And I think we're reaching the same conclusions in slightly different ways here anyway.

Empire your stil voting llamarble? Why not johhog?

Johhog's still null to me whereas I feel like Llamarble leans scum. I had the same impression re: Llamarble's p. 1 vote on Konowa but his later content has been lacking.

@Empire- you said that you found DeasVail's vote for CTD to be suspicious because it seemed lazy and opportunistic. If DeasVail was scum trying to be lazy and opportunistic, then why did you think he would vote for CTD rather than penguin? I'm especially curious considering penguin had received several votes and none of the votes for penguin in RVS were justified.

Largely meta-based: like I said earlier, my impression of DV-scum is that he's a lot more image conscious and tries to go for more blatant grabs at towncred by playing in a textbook way, so I think he'd be more likely to put down a serious vote on CTD as scum than on penguin because there's an element of pro-town posturing in balking at someone suggesting something unconventional so early (which is where the opportunism element comes in). The penguin wagon at the time was the kind of arbitrary RVS wagon that happens all the time in games so I didn't really think anything of it.

I've noticed in quite a few of my games I've alienated people and gotten myself mislynched, so I'm trying a new thing. I'm not sure what you're exactly expecting from me (have you gotten my meta mixed up with someone else's?), but I can go through the whole thread and make snarky comments if you'd like?

What the fuck? How does this make any sense? "I've been getting mislynched a lot by alienating people, so I'm going to try something different and alienate people even more by not posting content."

I just did.
I'll freely admit that he's very much like Sherlock in what I hear in the subtext of what he posts, but that contradiction is dubious.

I'm not seeing the contradiction at all...

Mind you, I'm not talking about the quirky "emulating Glrok" type of anti-town; I'm talking "let's just push

this mislynch

hard".

Do you have something to tell the class, CES?

...really, Vi? You're better than this.

Empire, can you do a cool little anti-Vi screed?

I'll look at Vi's meta again later since I'm going out tonight. I remember you were in all the games I looked at though (Black Flag, Chrono Trigger Resurrection, Tierce's Micro, etc.) so you might want to take a look at those too.

[Empire]

God, I feel like fucking MoI with all the quote stripping, I need to stop doing that.

Also, I get the feeling that if I were CES, I'd be townreading Llamarble right now. Meh.

CES, thoughts on Konowa?

[Empire]

Caught up, not going to bother with quote strips here

since I want to stop feeling like MoI

.

~~~

@CTD

(#311): Erm, it wasn't supposed to be a suggestion, I made it pretty explicit that I thought that post was scummy. You're basically expressing suspicion on the two of us while keeping your vote on Llamarble and commenting on us both without taking a more clear stance on which of us you think comes off worse in it just makes it seem like you're trying to encourage the argument rather than trying to glean meaningful information from it. And I don't see a BoP aspect to Shadoweh's argument which is why I haven't responded to it + I've already suggested I'm somewhat leaning town on her though it's been reinforced by her recent posting.

~~~

@Konowa

: I'm not sure I'm following? You say that you outed that pg. 2 townread on Tierce for reactions (#312), that your read was a gutread (#319), and that your read was based off an early game tell (#47)? Seems inconsistent. Which of the three is it? What reaction were you hoping to get out of Tierce/what early game tell did you pick up?

~~~

@Nacho:

My impression of N is different? I remember in Black Flag he was outing reads and stuff but mostly just attacking easy targets, was rather lurkerish, and had a hard time dealing with the stronger players in the room (for example, he spent most of the game tunneling/getting into a huge fight with JesseSheffield) so I think it would make sense for Nscum to have a hard time producing content with this strong of a roster.

~~~

@Tammy:

Echoing Shadoweh's sentinments, I'm not getting the super warm and fuzzy townie vibes from your posts but I know you've said you sometimes struggle on D1. Please towninate, too.

Unvote, vote: N

(Tierce, if you say I'm sheeping you here I'm going to be frustrated as fuck.)

[Empire]

Oh, I'm going to go over Shadoweh's meta too since I remember she's a lot more snarky/abrasive as town.

And Vi's too since CES basically asked.

[Empire]

EBWOP:

Oh, I'm going to go over Shadoweh's meta too since I remember she's a lot more snarky/abrasive as town

than as scum

.

Sigh, I'm really bad at editing my posts this game.

[Empire]

Vote for Vi? I forget who you're voting for but I doubt it's a good one.

(I'm voting for N, which seems pretty neat to me.)

[Empire]

Team Mafia was such a perfect storm. I don't expect a game with that high a rhetoric:scumhunting ratio to come around for me for a while.

Benmage, the change that 'marble mentioned predates this game (see norlkaz) so it's not a tell.

Am I seeing things or is this what a CES towntell looks like?

Anyone?

(I want to be the first to claim this marvelous discovery if true.)

[Empire]

Actually, I just thought of something.

@penguin:

In #155, you pointed out how you didn't like CES's "coasting/non-game related posts" -- what do you think of Vi? If town, can you make any meaningful distinction between Vi's play and CES's play that would justify the different treatment?

[Empire]

Tammy, why are you such a NEGATIVE NANCY?

[Empire]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Well part of that is me trolling but the other part of that is that you seem to be in a pretty shitty mood this game and I have no idea why.

[Empire]

Gah. I need an hydra buddy or something. I feel like so much of this game is going WOOOOOSH over my head and that I don't know how to play alone anymore. I want to gripe about situations and get someone who reads the parts I skim and the possibility of bouncing ideas back and forth and I just

can't

.

I'm too scatterbrained for this right now, but eventually I'll probably appropriate the thread to act out a decent hydra discussion with Empire and/or Vi. It feels really damned awkward not being able to talk with either of them about the game as it is ongoing and I keep looking at AIM and pining for brainstorms we cannot have. Even when I currently have no idea what I

would

discuss, I feel like I need it.

Firebird feels very lonely and needs someone to hold her hand/wing/talon/whatever.

Quoting this for anyone who has any doubts about Tierce being town (looking at you, Benmage).

[Empire]

I'm not. I feel in a pretty good mood, just rather frazzled because I have several things going on and not a whole lot of time.

Are you trying to annoy me to see what reaction I will give, because that's what this feels like.

No, I don't do any of this soft-trolling shit. You know I'd be coming at you harder than that if I was trying to frustrate you into towntelling (and believe me, I have more than enough ammo to do so).

What's your read on CES and am I right about #382?

[Empire]

Out of those on my wagon, I think CTD's jump on was the worst, followed by Empire's. I don't know whether I just don't understand how my own meta is seen or whether Teirce and Empire are cherry-picking parts of it that suit their case.

How do you perceive your meta then?

(Yes, I'm asking you to self-meta.)

[Empire]

Like I said earlier, that I'm way too aggressive and alienate people so they want to lynch me to shut me up. Also I can't explain my reads very well ever.

I got that, but how does that stack up against your scum game?

I'm going to end up meta-gaming everyone in this roster, I can already tell.

[Empire]

Also, N, how do you feel about Vi's vote on you? You mentioned CTD/Tierce/myself, but didn't mention his vote at all.

[Empire]

By the way, Empire, I don't want to spoil anything you might want from others, but I look at 382 and have no idea what you're on about with that tell.

Nevermind, I think I misinterpreted the post as CES being self-deprecating about his playstyle which I thought was more likely to come from him as town.

Llamarble, whenever you get a chance, can you talk about which players have towned it up since your posts before today and why?

[Empire]

Going over Shadoweh's meta because it's nearly 5 AM and I'm really bored. A Dance With Dragons throws in a bit of a wrench in the pattern I'm seeing in her scum games. Contrast with GvE where she just blatantly didn't give a shit about the game, was far less snarky/abrasive (there are points where she actually tries to appear all cutesy and amicable -- #1643 + #1704), was far less adamant about pushing her preferred lynches, and basically folded to pressure). Both games were multiball so that can't be what accounts for the difference. She feels totally different in Weather Mafia II and Mini 1376 and I think the level of snark/abrasiveness here fits her townplay. Definitely leaning town here, but paranoid because lolADWD.

[Empire]

Oh, is that it? He's sheeping Teirce. Huh, no wonder I missed it.

This isn't a stance on Vi.

[Empire]

Tierce is town and this is non-negotiable.

More N votes.

[Empire]

Glowing optimism sets in after the realization that CES may actually be right about the scumteam (#447).

[Empire]

I know that and I never said it was. You asked me how I felt about Vi's vote, and I feel that it is sheeping.

Yeah, ok.

More votes on this guy, please and thanks.

[Empire]

How about you actually answer the question I asked you about your thoughts on Vi? Saying "I feel he's sheeping" is not even remotely what I asked for.

[Empire]

Okay. I guess I can see where you find it inconsistent, Empire.

Tierce's vote on DV was Town (we've seen her jump on awkward early stances like that before as Town). So yes, it was a gut read on what I think to be a Town tell for Tierce. I know she's hyper sensitive of her own meta and with this list if notTown then would try hard as possible to mimic her Town play. So to try and help further that read I decided to out my read to see how she would respond (again, since I know she thinks I'm paranoid of her). I think if Scum, Tierce wouldn't have been as vocal about it and moreso just cast some shady eyes at me.

Ok, now why did you find Tammy's reaction to you in the early game strange given that you've seen her react similarly (I'd argue even more strongly) in Castle Zar as town?

Also, can you elaborate some more on your penguin, Johhog, and Wickedestjr (want to see the logic for scumreading him independently of penguin) scumreads please?

[Empire]

Konowa's justification for his read on me still sucks.

I actually thought that was a rather townish post from Konowa. Think of it like this: Konowa obviously knows at least that aspect of his meta (w.r.t. the way he interacts with you in games) so a hypothetical Konowa-scum who knows your alignment wouldn't want to throw himself into the limelight like that and draw that negative attention from you. In that context, I think he'd just avoid you altogether or try to play up the paranoia angle to try and conform to his town meta. So therefore, I think him saying he was trying to further a gut-townread on you is genuine.

The Tammy stuff is still weird, though.

[Empire]

VOTE: CTD

Benmage and Wicked are probably town. Tierce is driving me crazy, but that's okay. I'd rather lynch Empire at this stage, but I know that's not going to happen.

And Nacho is still actually scum.

(You should self-vote. Alternatively, commit to the bus on penguin.)

[Empire]

Konowa, I still think you should answer the question directed at me, though.

[Empire]

You're acting very differently from that town game we played together too. Why?

Already went over this here.

~~~

Tammy, thoughts on Johhog's play in TM 2012 White Flag? Wish I had a scum game to compare it to but the only ones I found were all newbie games.

[Empire]

Busy today. Content tomorrow.

[Empire]

Won't be able to post until tomorrow night, most likely. In the meantime, here's what I'm at with my reads. Remind me of this post later so I can go into my reasoning.

TOWN (S->W):

Tierce, Benmage, DV, Tammy, [gap], Shadoweh, Konowa, Llamarble, [gap], Johhog, CES

Scum in {CTD, N, Nacho, penguin, Vi, Wickedestjr}

[Empire]

Effort wall is going to have to wait 'til tomorrow morning. In the meantime:

Actually I'm amused by how well the Scum According To Empire corresponds to the activity overview. N might actually be Town, and then we'd be left with the four top lurkers as the four scum.

...it would be funny, anyway. (>")>

Yeah, that's why there's still a little bit of paranoia left, but I'm slowly gaining a bit of confidence here so it's all good.

I think that it's an honest and townish way to frame the playstyle change. When Fate changed his playstyle for Team Mafia, he framed the change as something that was more like "I'm doing this because it will help people read me easier since this is a hard-mode game". N's change came about as more "I'm changing it up because people lynch me a lot and I don't want that to happen so easily here". Yeah, not getting lynched has more benefit to scum than town, but it still has a pretty good benefit to town as well.

Ok, I know this isn't addressed at me but stuff like this is making me twitch to the point where I have to respond here. There are two obvious problems with this: 1) N's apparent is intended to obfuscate not clarify, so the Fate analogy makes no sense here, and 2) it makes zero sense to take up a playstyle change that, for pretty much any roster, is

more

likely to get you lynched, not less -- so that playstyle shift does not seem genuine to me at all and likely borne out of scum finding it hard to bullshit reads (seriously, just read posts like #531).

[Empire]

EBWOP (UGH):

1) N's apparent

playstyle shift

is intended to obfuscate not clarify, so the Fate analogy makes no sense here

[Empire]

Ok so I managed to get some time in between preparing this stupid application/work to toss together this post. After today, you're going to hear a bit less from me until the weekend's over. I'm growing more and more confident that N + penguin are the best chances to hit scum and I'd support either wagon, though my preference is for N.

~~~

@Tammy:

The impression that I got from Johhog's play in White Flag was that he was just as passive there as he is here, and while some of the things he's done (particularly #549's throwaway reason for hopping onto the CTD wagon) make me twitch, I don't really get the impression he's scum here. I remember looking through some of his scum games and, surprisingly, he's pretty active and engaged -- main difference is that he's a bit more jittery/image conscious and more willing to conform with others' opinions. As far as CES goes, I'm leaning town on him, too, but that's mostly due to his back-and-forth with Llamarble and his comment in #259 about him which all reads like he's genuinely trying to get a read on him. It's really weak and I'd take it with a huge grain of salt since I really can't read CES for shit, but that's what I'm going with for now. With Wicked, I need to see more from him to actually form an opinion, what he's come up with is ok I guess but to a certain extent he's still promising more content so I'm waiting to see what he's going to come up with.

~~~

@CES:

What are your thoughts on Johhog? (Asking since you were in White Flag with him.)

[Empire]

Literally posting from my phone to ask: why in the ever living fuck does anyone read N as town?

[Empire]

Daily phone post reminder that N is still mafia and people are townreading him for silly and really bad reasons.

[Empire]

I can't link the relevant posts right now but I urge you to go through his ISO again. It's largely contentless, he's been generally evasive when asked easy questions (e.g., check his response to my asking what he thinks about Vi's vote on him), the few reads he has given are patent bullshit (e.g., the penguin/Konowa read, which is not only transparently BS, but didn't answer the question asked about his view on penguin's alignment) and he's now spent the last few days sniping at easy shit in lieu of actually scumhunting which fits his scum meta (see: Black Flag).

[Empire]

Oh and for my fellow tinfoil theorists out there, it's very likely that N and penguin are scum together (see: penguin's abrupt 180 stance on N, N's awkward reaction to her vote, and his seemingly willful refusal to give a read on her despite pointing out that her vote was bad).

[Empire]

Might not have time to post again before deadline. Both wagons rule so I'm fine with either of them going today (P.S.: lynch N). As far as my reads go, remember my list, though my Johhog and CES townreads are really really weak and should probably be re-examined at some point depending on the flips.

[Empire]

Ok so I managed to get some time in between classes to draft this up. I'm in a bit of a hurry so sorry if this comes out frazzled.

~~~

@N:

That has to be the most ridiculous assessment of my meta I have ever seen. You know damn well I'm capable of posting multiple one-liners as town (see: Black Flag - all the posts by me are signed so you can't miss them; or Mafiastuck - all my posts are the ones that have proper grammar/punctuation) and I love cheerleading wagons on scumreads I'm confident about.

~~~

@Nacho:

I get where you're coming from on me because I haven't really given much in the way of concrete stances this game (which is why I agreed with Johhog that I was playing somewhat differently from Castle Zar) -- it's no secret at this point that the game is really really fucking hard. But my confidence has been growing since I've been slowly developing a list of strong townreads. I didn't address or pursue the Tammy thing further because her response to me was town as fuck (see her placement in my second reads list) and I didn't really feel like talking about it much + I was more interested in bouncing ideas off of her.

And just to get this out there now about my meta since it's a topic that's come up with some frequency -- it's not a secret that I hate playing scum and that drawing scum in a mafia game is one of the most demoralizing things for me. The only enjoyment I get from this game is from the sheer happiness I get from solving the game and getting it right. I don't give anywhere near of a shit about the game when I'm scum which is why Tierce et. al. have such strong townreads on me. And as pathetic as this is going to sound (and no I don't give a shit if any of you think this sounds fake, fuck off), I literally think about this game in particular all the time. I literally cannot go through a moment of the day alone where this game does not creep into my thoughts somehow. And it's precisely because this game is so hard that I'm so constantly drawn to it -- I

want

to figure it out so badly. The reason I'm latching on to the N/penguin scumreads is because those are the only two I actually feel confident about and I think that duo works interaction-wise. So yeah, I'm town because I'm a loser and I care way too fucking much about this game to be scum.

I think your N townread is naive. I urge you to read NY 160 - Regfan and I misread N hard there because we applied way too low of a standard for him so a lot of the fake noob tells like him asking what an encryptor was and the bare minimum effort he gave seemed obvtown. He's doing a lot of the same shit here and he's being given way too much of a free pass for it. I've read games where he's town and he's frankly capable of far more proactive scumhunting than he has been in here and his scum games. The playstyle shift doesn't seem like a genuine excuse for me because, well, he's not really been doing a great job of it -- I mean, the guy literally refused to claim at L-1 simply to spite another player.

~~~

Anyway I absolutely need to get this off my chest before the thread closes. I don't know if I'm going to survive the night here despite the high quality roster so I absolutely need to make sure this gets said.

Please please please for the love of god, do not lynch the following people. Do not even so much as vote them:

Tierce
Benmage
DV
Tammy
Nacho

These five names are my strongest townreads and should not be up for lynching ever. As arrogant as this will sound, I think I know Tierce and Tammy better than literally anyone else on the site and I'm very confident both are town here. I used to be awful at reading DV but the meta I've got on him has been proving reliable -- I read him as town correctly in Mafiastuck/Sherlock and as scum in Castle Zar. I've read games Benmage has been in and I think there's a very significant difference in his town/scum playstyles and he's very much playing to his town meta here. Nacho's big reads wall is extremely town, I wasn't sure on him before because he seemed to just ask a lot of questions and I wasn't sure where he was going with it all but his conclusions and the way he expresses them in #705 is super genuine.

I won't be around most likely to switch to penguin if needed but consider this post an official endorsement of the wagon. Good luck.

[Empire]

Nacho, how familiar are you with Johhog's scum play?

[Empire]

Nacho, can you do me a huge solid and check out Johhog's scum games please? I think your points against him make a lot of sense which is why he's been at the bottom of my townreads totem pole but his scum games make me think he'd be more willing to cooperate than he has here. I'd link them but I'm on my phone at the moment.

Tierce, you too. I want to get as much as I can out before the day ends.

[Empire]

IIRC, he was factional scum in mykonian's Game of the Year.

The ones I found were all old newbies.

[Empire]

Won't have time to go through that game right now since I'm now on my way to a bullshit graduation assembly + a two hour seminar after but thanks for the link Nacho.

Benmage, penguin already claimed VT.

[Empire]

About to walk into an exam so quick phone post: Tierce, as much as it hurts to admit, that might be a bad vote (see: interactions with CTD + replace-out).

P-Edit: Pretty sure I had CTD in my PoE pool.

[Empire]

Before I go ahead and re-read stuff, just wanted to say one thing: Please stop talking about the night kills for obvious reasons, thanks in advance.

Tierce, take a look at CTD's ISO starting at #522 -- first impression is that it's not bussing, especially given that he was a traitor, but I'm not great at reading bussing + CTD was known for making that wacky fakeclaim as scum so I wouldn't put it past him to do some high risk move like that.

Vote: CES

[Empire]

Won't have internet for the rest of the day so more posting tomorrow.

Vi, CES, T/S

[Empire]

My point was simply being suspicious of someone and not picking up on a fairly explicit softclaim is not all that likely to be the result of diligent scumhunting.

A ton of people suspected Johhog despite him making that post and despite Tammy pointing out the PR possibility in her wallpost (and even I was wavering on the Johhog townread at the end of the day). I don't really see why Vi is being singled out here, especially given that this roster is fairly competent and should have caught that/considered it more.

[Empire]

Okay re-made it through the first 10 pages and think that ces/wicked are good votes. If either is scum, the other works...

How so? And what happened to your Wicked townread from D1?

[Empire]

I was more curious to see why CES/Wicked can work as a team, given that post you made.

[Empire]

Going to a basketball game today, post tomorrow.

[Empire]

Mostly an antiprod.

Why is no one else interested in a Benmage wagon?

Is this really all you're going to do?

Man, this game feels dead. Where is Llamarble and why hasn't he been towninating recently?

[Empire]

Came down with a cold but managed to muster enough energy to respond to stuff, sorry if it's a bit incoherent.

Empire - I know you're voting CES, but why are you scum reading him? Also, what's your read on Vi?

The CES vote is largely PoE. As far as their argument is concerned, honestly, I think both of them come off pretty badly:

- On the one hand, CES trying to push a weird almost BoP-type argument against Vi today is kinda shitty considering the general suspicion Johhog drew despite both his and your posts. A ton of people suspected him regardless, and unless you think a ton of people were just posturing about it, I don't really think ignorance of Johhog's softclaim is any kind of scumtell. Also, I know Vi doesn't read large portions of the game D1 in detail (for example, I remember Vi telling me after Castle Zar that he didn't really read any of MoI's posts) so him missing something like that doesn't seem farfetched to me.

- On the other hand, Vi pushing the whole "he hasn't really looked at anyone else angle" in #847 is pretty awful if you know anything about the way CES plays. Dude's pretty much one of the tunnel-iest people I've played with so him focusing almost exclusively on Vi is really CES just being CES, nothing alignment indicative -- Vi's played with him even more than I have so I just find that argument really weak. I don't know much about CES's scum meta (every time I've tried to metagame him it just ends horribly) but the idea that CES was trying to absolve himself of responsibility seems kind of ridiculous. CES can get away with a lot of things regardless of his alignment so I don't think he'd try a cop out kind of play like that as scum. My read on Vi is still very much TBD and I want to go through his meta one more time when I'm feeling better.

I actually have to go back and see what alignment Empire is calling you to see if I can just plod along and ignore you some more, but #YOLO #LAYOVER #SCREAMINGINFANTS, so please entertain me with explanations.

I have him as a pretty strong townread. Granted, I'm not exactly a DV-expert (and I don't know why people are treating me as such) but his early play re: his CTD vote and his later justification that it was some sort of reaction test reminds me of his early play in Sherlock where he jumps into the fray by doing something that draws him lots of attention and is not really something I can see him doing as scum, he'd be more likely to take some sort of textbook approach to the game (and a quick look at Mafia with the Kitties confirms this). There are some moments where DV comes off like he's genuinely struggling with the game (#204/#205) -- he's more than capable of bullshitting reasoning as scum and I'm pretty sure those two posts came at a moment before people generally started struggling getting reads here (or at least saying so) so this stuff doesn't come across as posturing to me (agree/disagree?). There's also a bunch of tonal markers I have for DV that he's hitting (extreme self deprecation, undermining his own cases, etc.).

I had a brief spike of Shadoweh bloodlust but it faded.

What gave you the bloodlust spike and why did it fade?

Not much, I know, but enough for me to get off the sidelines, since people would rather whine at me than actually look at Benmage.

Erm, no one is actually whining. You came into the thread parking your vote on Benmage and never really gave any reasons behind your push while lamenting that no one is going after him so I don't really get what exactly it is that we're supposed to be looking at. Especially considering a decent portion of the roster (hi) has Benmage as town.

[Empire]

@mod--Going to be V/LA until Monday, the 18th because I'm going to be out of town (to Orlando) for the weekend. I should be able to get some phone posts in but no guarantees. Sorry for the inconvenience.

There's a lot of stuff I want to respond to before I go, though, so I'll write it up some time today.

[Empire]

Ok so I can't sleep and I'm way too addicted to this stupid game so you're getting the post way earlier than expected.

I didn't really "push" anything. It's a fairly minor scum tell and it seemed like a nice thing to have accompanying my vote.

I didn't even care enough to check if my memory of events was correct.

It certainly seems like a push considering it's been the focal point of the Day's conversation. Re: the underlined, how much of a damn would you have given about it as scum? Also, I tried looking through CTD's ISO and literally could not figure out what could possibly have been a crumb (and evidently, you couldn't either) so assuming he signaled Shadoweh in some way seems weird to me (Q: are scum typically told whether a traitor exists or no?). I don't know what good traitor play is on this site, but it seems equally plausible that CTD just tried to cut himself off from any ties to the mafia since traitor seems like the most expendable member of the team.

Like, CES is obnoxious and tunnels as Town, but

not to this extent

. You played in Tierce's game too, etc.

Uhh, doesn't this prove my point? He spent pretty much all of that game tunneling me to the complete exclusion of anyone else until I was forced to claim. His vote being the "least meaningful" is basically the same argument as the accountability stuff since the only scum motivation I can see for putting a meaningless vote down is to avoid accountability and I don't think CES really gives a shit about that stuff regardless of alignment. In Revolution Mafia, he basically spent most of his early game tunneling Fate (a player who isn't exactly easy to mislynch), leading the charge on that wagon.

Empire - what are your current reads on Shadoweh/Nacho?

If I had to guess on Shadoweh, I'd say I'm leaning town on her though I'm still largely taking the same "wait-and-see" approach as before. I think Nacho's town, I'll go into this read in more detail when I get back, but basically I think he gives way too much of a shit about the game and he seems more involved than in his emotionless, detached scum games (the hardcore defense of N in particular read as genuine on a reread + the wallpost, though looking at Always On, he's capable of :effort: as scum -- need to break down that post in more detail later). Bonus: I reread Wicked and I think I agree that he's town, but that's mostly based on his self meta about his scum competency (particularly in #873) which adds a bit more dimension to his earlier attitude that he was struggling with the game. A quick look at this game does suggest that he is pretty capable of scum so I don't think he's faking the whole struggling bit.

[Empire]

522 and 551, the "you are clearly paying alot of attention" shtick.

Eh, rereading those posts in context, I don't think those were signals, more likely rhetoric employed solely to discredit Nacho. Only thing that is kind of weird is the mention of Nacho in #738, which seems a bit gratuitous.

[Empire]

Unvote

Man, fuck this. I'll reread this again when I come back and hopefully find a vote I can feel some confidence in.

[Empire]

Just got back, haven't read anything yet so catch-up post tomorrow.

[Empire]

Ok, I'm back and I've read through the stuff I've missed. Some of this will probably be scattered since I'm exhausted, but whatever YOLO.

I had a lot of stuff to say about Vi that's basically been voided by his claim (which I think is real). Tammy, or anyone else, if you're really curious about my thoughts on Vi pre-claim, go ahead and ask but I'd rather not waste page space. Vi, re: #904 and Benmage, I just looked over his play in Heroes of Comedy there and I think there's a pretty huge difference between his push on MoI that game and his push on you here. He was a lot more intense and involved with his MoI-tunnel in that game as opposed to here which makes me think he'd come at you much harder if he were scum in this game. And I don't think his accusation in #595 was "extra ridiculous", the discrediting point made a lot of sense to me at the time especially considering you really did the same thing to me in Black Flag as I was getting my mega-case ready.

~~~

Tammy, I think I have a lot more reservations about CES's play than you do. You do make a good point about CES sliding off the Llamarble wagon as I think he'd definitely use Llamarble's claimed playstyle shift as ammo as scum and would have kept pushing for that lynch. Aside from the other stuff I don't like about his Vi-push, what bugs me is that he wasn't really at the forefront of the initial Llamarble push. In Abarat and White Flag, he pushed Llamarble pretty early and hard and I'd go so far as to say he led those wagons. Here, he doesn't really do anything with Llamarble until suspicion mounts against him. And I don't get where you're coming from when you say he hasn't been manipulative because stuff like #933's "Do you have some kind of Revolution mafia related trauma where you can't side with me?" seems pretty damn manipulative to me.

On the other hand, there's some stuff that feels pretty townish from CES -- particularly #896 (which was the reason I unvoted before I left). I know CES plays a really stiff/tight scum game so I believe him when he says he would have taken some care to make sure he didn't come off badly when presenting arguments. Him coming off to a false start at the beginning of today (his admission that his posts to start the day off were based on a misreading) doesn't seem like something he'd do as scum. And then there's posts like #539 and his frustration with Llamarble "not towninating" in #259 that read genuine -- actually, aside from the late start, his entire interaction with Llamarble seemed townish. I do want to know, though, why he thought the CTD wagon was anti-town.

So basically, the long and short of this is that I have no clue on CES and I wish he were as easy to read as Regfan.

~~~

DV, why did you post #936?

Nacho's #957 -- I wasn't trying to make that point at all or compare Wicked to Benmage whatsoever. My point was that Wicked seems competent as scum, hasn't played in a while, and hasn't played with the overwhelming majority of the roster. So him saying he was struggling early in the game seems genuine to me and not exactly the kind of angle I see him faking this game as scum. Take a look at the Micro I referenced. He had no problems taking hard stances and generally being very on top of his game there so I don't really see the scum motivation for him in particular to admit to struggling early on.

~~~

I'm going to think things over for a bit because I don't think Vi is scum and I'm really wishy-washy on CES and nearly everyone else looks town in some form of another so I'm going to reread or something. If I were forced to vote someone right now, it'd probably be OGML because the way he just kind quit pushing the Benmage vote seems really off from what I remember of his play in Micro 53. There, he basically tunneled Equinox really hard and actively campaigned for the vote, even when nearly the entire roster was townreading her...he only relented and compromised when deadline was nearing. Here, he just kinda limply placed his vote on Benmage calling it "a layup" but he never provided any reasoning for it and fell off the vote easily. But then there's the whole N replace-out situation + that slot's interactions with CTD and then I realize I hate this game.

Did I say fuck this game yet?

[Empire]

Oh forgot something.

Llamarble, what exactly seemed dicey about Konowa's further elaboration on what he was doing with his Tierce townread? I thought that whole explanation was pretty town assuming that Konowa had prior knowledge of how Tierce perceives him as I don't think he'd do something he knows would just draw him a lot of negative attention as scum.

[Empire]

Sorry for the triple post but I just checked out NY 146 to get the full details on the Vanilla Cop role and Vi, you reviewed this game.

[Empire]

...holy shit, can someone who knows what they're doing tell me if Konowa perspective slipped in #312?

Empire, CES has seen me explode on people who I think have seen enough to get me right but persist in attempting to lynch me. And he certainly knows the odds of getting me mislynched are extremely low, barring silliness. I don't think based on previous experience with me town that he scum would believe continuing to try to lynch me was a good idea.

My point is that he could have used the playstyle shift against you if he were scum as an argument to get you lynched.

[Empire]

Quick phone post since I'm in class all day, more when I get home.

CES, why did you say the CTD wagon was anti-town last Day?

[Empire]

Still happy with my CES vote. Lets all sheep UT.

Man, this guy's a scumbag, isn't he?

Tammy, pretty sure UT fucks around like that regardless of alignment at least from what I remember of his meta so it's not a tell. I'm not sure about Shadoweh either because I do also have a soft spot for players who prefer town pointing out their own town tells and stuff but the Benmage vote feels off considering she had never really mentioned him at any point before that and her reaction to this wagon is weird -- I remember her being very explosive while getting run up as town in her other games so her being okay with getting lynched is pretty unsettling.

I thought I had a lot more to talk about but I guess not.

[Empire]

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

The wagon I always wanted and it's finally here! Oh happy day.

Goes back to playing Pathfinder...

Just caught up and, can we just wagon this guy instead? Pleeeeeeease. I'm not really a fan of any of the other major wagons.

[Empire]

(He still hasn't explained why he wants to wagon Benmage so badly despite being asked by multiple people to do so.)

[Empire]

He did say why he wanted to lynch him? It's not like he has alot of posts to look though.

Oh, bleh, forgot that since CES had been asking him a few times to explain that read with no response.

Still not really a fan of any of these three wagons.

[Empire]

Absolutely hate this but I'm heading to class and I don't know if I'm going to have time to vote before deadline. Prefer this over a Benmage lynch and definitely over no lynch.

Vote: Shadoweh

(L-1)

[Empire]

Sneaking this post on my phone during class...

@mod--Would it be possible to get a short deadline extension due to the replacement? Just saw Zach replaced in and I don't think 9 hours is enough time.

[Empire]

Thank god.

UNVOTE

I'll be around later tonight to talk things over more. Hopefully Zach should have some good stuff.

[Empire]

Zach, thoughts on Llamarble?

[Empire]

Empire do you actually think I'm scum? I hope you have more inspiring reasons than Nacho did.

No, I just wanted Zach's thoughts on you since he was in (both?) TM White Flag.

I just got back and I'll brain about this game after I sleep a bit since I don't have confidence in any of the potential lynch candidates coming back scum.

[Empire]

Empire: The potential lynch candidates being me, CES, UT and Benmage now, who DO you have confidence in coming back as scum?

No one, if I did, I'd be voting them and campaigning for their lynch.

If I had a gun to my head and were forced to pick right now, it'd probably be something like UT > CES > you > Benmage from best lynch to worst.

[Empire]

Or you're saying you have no scum reads at all?

This. I thought this was pretty clear from my posts.

Honestly, Benmage is the lynch I definitely don't want of those four. I already explained why a while back but the tl;dr is that I think he's too lazy to be scum here.

[Empire]

ok so I just gopt bacjk from a party and I'm really FUCKIn drunk right now sio this will come out sounding like shit but whatever (fuck tequila)

Tammy, the activity based paranoia is ridiculous, it's fuckign great and fantastic and lovely that you've managed to find the time to post more than i do but i can't keep up the activity that I used to and the fact that i still manage to make time for this game by posting during fucking class. and to be honest, i feel like this has been my single most obvtown game in mafia unless yopu suddenly think i became god tier at scum so the paranoia makes no sense from someone who should be able to read me. and despite being sduper busy i'm still among the most prolific posters in the thread. so fuck that noise. (also i'm posting while drunk, i think this should p much make me IC-tier town).

tierce, i'll try to make as much time as i can I'm one of the editors of my law review and my underlings are turning something in tomorrow which i have to turn over by april 5th.

zach being confirmed town fuckin owns and we should all just form a town bloc that includes myself, tierce, and tammy as well. dv could be like that dude in 90s sitcoms whos like the featured ghuest and shit since i think he's town but im getting a bit paranoid

passing out now, peace

[Empire]

Oh I gforgot to vote

just imagine i'm voting CES I guess

[Empire]

Ok, remind me to never post again while drunk, those were really bad posts.

Shadoweh, I answered your question already at the end of the last Day. Bottom line is that I don't have any confident scumreads. The only read I have that is even close to a scumread right now is the N/OGML slot and even then I've been waffling on it due to the slot's interactions with CTD and N's replace out. I've made this pretty damn clear to anyone who actually bothers to read my posts.

As for activity being a scum tell for me, guess what? I've posted 92 times this game despite this game having only just started Day 3 with two week deadlines, which is over 3 times as much as my posting rate in Triplicate (29 times) and Masquerade Ball (33 times). The bottom line is that I'm actually genuinely busy, I'm only about a month away from graduating law school and there's a lot of shit that needs to be done in order for that to happen. And despite all this, I

still

manage to make time to think about this game and post in it. So don't give me this complete bullshit about how I haven't been efforting or not thinking about the game.

Like Zach said, we're only two lynches into this game with a scum down. I'm not "blissfully marching through this game" as anyone who's actually taken the time to, you know, read my posts would be able to decipher. I'm not going to all of a sudden second guess my strong townreads on two of the players I feel the most capable of reading probably far better than anyone on the site just because we got it wrong. That'd be fucking stupid of me to do so.

~~~

Tierce, wanna talk about Benmage? Where is your suspicion of him coming from and have you ever played with scum-Benmage before?

[Empire]

EBWOP: "As for

in

activity being a scum tell for me"

[Empire]

Prod dodge right now. Tierce, I'll get to the OGML stuff tomorrow night or Wednesday but my underlings in the law review just turned in their assignment so this week is going to be busier than normal for me. But yeah, I know he's a very tunnely player regardless of alignment from my experience with him a long time ago so I didn't really think he had some result or whatever.

[Empire]

The interactions with CTD were the only thing that kept me from voting the slot during the last dayphase if I'm remembering correctly. Now that I think about it, that's probably not a good enough reason. The replace out was a big fat null for me.

Well, I don't really know what good traitor play is here (I come from a site where traitors don't know their partners and vice versa + they cannot be recruited, so the role is seldomly used) but my assumption is that traitors are typically reluctant to hardcore bus because they know they're the most expendable member of the team. Now, CES said that CTD is "tricksy" (and I have no reason to believe CES is lying about this, especially considering what CTD got his banner for) which means he may be capable of pulling that kind of strategy but I do lean on the side of unlikely. As for the replace-out, I've seen scum replace out under pressure like that before (see: Paschendale in Mafiastuck) but this seemed more motivated by his frustration with Tierce/me rather than his inability to produce content as scum (I don't know if I'm making sense here but this is what I'm thinking).

I can't help but think that Benmage is a capable enough scum player to go "okay, if I lurk like hell, I won't get suspected".
He also feels a little less aggressive than usual. Generally when Benmage is suspected when he's lurking like hell as town he would have popped in a couple of times with "MY SCUMGAME IS FLAWLESS", but nothing of the sort so far.

The issue is not whether he's

capable

of lurking as scum (I think we can all agree that he is capable of it) but whether he'd actually go and contemplate that kind of strategy. It definitely seems like a point of pride for him (see: #192) and he's already mounted the kind of defense you're referring to (putting aside his most recent posts and #192, see #1075) so I don't really get where your accusation is coming from.

Tierce, Tammy, LLamarable, Empire can't all be town.

Well, I've got news for you...

~~~

Tierce, I'm going to grab some food and deal with the OGML meta stuff when I come back. I went through some of the games (P.S.: your Open 411 link is busted) while bored in class and my inclination is that he's town here as much (as it hurts to admit) as his reaction to being suspected I think more resembles him-town and I think he's pushing the Ben/CES case with the kind of genuine conviction that I saw in Micro 53. Can you look into CES/Benmage in the mean time and give me your thoughts on them? I plan on tackling at least one of them if not both today.

(Tammy, would really appreciate your help with all this too.)

[Empire]

N hasn't played in any mafia games since replacing out. The timing of it (during the Night) also suggests that that is not what happened.

I don't think this is accurate. This is probably really nitpicky but the replace-out message came literally with the lynch scene and he hadn't posted since #704 so I think it's more plausible that N sent the message some time during the Day after #725 (the last VC before the penguin lynch) but before the Day's end -- so basically somewhere in that 8 hour time phase, i.e., not during the Night.

[Empire]

Tierce, I went through all the games. There are some markers I've developed here for OGML-town based on what's been given but I want to see how his play develops over the course of the day so I'd rather not talk about them right now.

CES/Ben tomorrow after my classes.

[Empire]

Also for all the town-assuming we're doing for Tammy/Empire/Tierce, I would like to see a lot more out of them.
Empire's effort level is decidedly medium and contains a lot of 'look at me reading all this meta about people' and basically zero "I have found a convincing scumbag guys let's lynch them for the following decent reasons."
Tierce
Benmage
DV
Tammy
Nacho
3 of the 5 people on Empire's NEVER LYNCH EVER list have solid chances of being scum. Good Jorb.
And come on. What is 990.
I'll take Tierce and Tammy and deadVi's word for it, but yeah.

Oh my god, I swear it's like people aren't actually reading my posts. I've explained over and over and over again that I've been incredibly busy the past couple of weeks and that my posting rate won't be as high as it's been in other games (despite this, I'm

still

among the most prolific posters in the thread). And I think it's fucking great and fantastic that you're so confident and you think you've got this game solved but guess what? Not all of us actually feel this way. I've explained a million times that I have no convincing scumreads to push and if you've bothered to look at any of my past games, I put a lot of weight into meta and that it's a large part of how I read people.

And thanks for chiding for something I posted many, many pages ago. If you've actually, you know, read anything I've posted since then, you'd have learned that my reads on DV and Benmage have both wavered (though I do still think they're town). I've rejected the Nacho read because it was based on that big wallpost which I didn't think would come from him as scum -- DV referenced Always On, where he did something very similar as scum so that made me scrap the read. My only two non-negotiables right now are Tierce and Tammy. Fucking tired of having to read posts like this.

Anyway, CES stuff coming up right now after I go over his ISO.

[Empire]

Ok so I got distracted but I did manage to comb over and think about CES's posts and I'm still pretty conflicted (shocker) but he does seem like a possible PoE-scum candidate. Trying to look for affirmatively scummy stuff from him though seems pretty impossible and that just reminds me of what past-Llamarble was saying about it being really hard to "case-make" about CES.

Going over his ISO, there are some posts that do come across as nothing but empty posturing -- I don't really see the point to stuff like #275, #548, #736-#737, #794 and overall it just gives the impression that he hasn't been genuinely scumhunting but just pushing a set of three mislynches the entire game. His reasoning for FoSing Nacho in #835 is ridiculous given that I really don't see any reason for being wrong about the scumteam being any sort of scumtell. Then there's the whole argument against Vi and I'm increasingly getting to the point where I'm not sure I buy him trying to lead off with the arguments he had for rhetorical effect (#870) being genuine.

At the same time, though, there are some things I still like. The putting Llamarble at L-1 and the line of questioning that accompanies it does seem like he's genuinely trying to get a read on him especially given #259. And there's the bit in #896 about not wanting to look hypocritical as scum that does ring true given that I think he does put a bit more image-conscious care into his posts as scum.

Meh, I'm going out but I'll be back tonight to look over this stuff again and also get to Benmage's ISO. I might also look into CES's meta but every time I've done this I never get anything out of it so bleh.

[Empire]

Now that I think about it...

Town: Zach (confirmed town via role result), Tierce, Tammy, [gap], DV, Benmage, Llamarble, OGML (maybe)

That leaves {CES, Nacho, Shadoweh}

I'm not sure the game is this easy though.

[Empire]

Well, at least the other game is over now. Empire, any new thoughts on CES from it?

Aside from the fact that I think CES can be obvtown when he wants to be, not really anything I can articulate. I had him as a weak townread even before the cop quickhammer thing (the read basically exponentially increased after that). I do feel like he played way differently in that game but it's more of a general vibe/gut feeling type thing looking at the way he approached the game and I hate that kind of thing so whatever -- I think maybe because he was just generally a lot more forthcoming with his reasoning and his back-and-forths with people came off as if he was genuinely scumhunting (think Sherlock).

[Empire]

No Shadoweh. You're supposed to townread me when no one else can!

To be fair I think Empire should explain where he got his new scumread on me from besides from his ass and I don't hate you, it's just a very who is left game. (If I don't give Empire a town read everyone will start yelling at me again so shhh)

It's not a scumread, it's pure PoE (you should actually try reading my posts, for real this time).

[Empire]

And Nacho had a really lovely tidy-up work on D1 that makes a lot more sense from Town than from scum.

I was agreeing with this until DV pointed out this post from Always On. Thoughts on this?

Also, have you ever played with scum-Benmage? What's your current read on Shadoweh?

[Empire]

Sorry but you seem like you take deductions too seriously to declare anyone scum without thinking they're scum.

I "townhunt" better than I scumhunt (see: Castle Zar as an example -- I don't think I called a single player scum that entire game). If you're just dying to see a scumread from me, especially in a game like this, well you're just going to have to deal with it?

[Empire]

SIGH. The meta cases have only happened twice...ever. And they only happen when I already have a strong conviction that someone is scum. Thanks for pointing out exceptions to the norm.

[Empire]

Goddammit, it's Always On, which means we don't have all the data anyway. ._. But still, can you check if there is a natural progression in his writing, Empire?

I just finished reading his ISO there and it's difficult to say conclusively since a lot of the interactions that game apparently occurred off-thread but I do think there's some development that leads to the post. My main issue with the post in that game is that his townreads do feel half-assed (in contrast, there's a lot more attention to detail in his scumreads). The townreads in this game do feel a bit more meaty but I do think he might be capable of giving that much thought and effort as scum. He was a traitor in that game though and this post suggests he had no idea who his buddies were but I haven't slept or looked at the setup yet to know for sure -- if so, it suggests the post was the product of genuine scumhunting. I also want to compare his play in our Micro too since I read him as scum rather easily there (but then waffled a lot after the D1 cop lynch :/).

[Empire]

<_< That wasn't the impression I got but that's probably because reading one of your cases was my first impression of you. I do think it's pretty funny that you're mad at me for expecting you to make a case on me instead of saying Everyone else is Town that's a wrap. I'm not going to stop hassling you because I know you're either wrong or scum and I really want to prove to people that you haven't got anything.

I've been pretty straight up with the fact that I don't have anything other than "everyone else looks townier than CES, Nacho, and you".

(P.S.: You probably think I'm way better than I actually am if your first impression of me was reading those cases.)

[Empire]

Holiday stuff, will get back into this game tomorrow.

[Empire]

How about TET folks offer an opinion on
1. It is very likely that at least one of CES / Shadoweh is scum.
2. Which one they think is more likely.

If only by PoE, sure -- aside from that, I'm not sure that conditional is meaningful? I'd vote CES over her though because I do kinda believe her when she says she's not very good at scum (I think I remember that being the case but then there's ADwD) and I do get the feeling I'm wrong about something else but I don't know what. Honestly, pretty much everyone looks like town at this point.

[Empire]

I'll get back into this tomorrow (7:30 PM class got cancelled woooo). I've been thinking of stuff to post but I really don't have anything to say right now for some reason.

Anyone have things to ask me?

[Empire]

This is quite possibly the worst post in this game and one i don't think I have ever seen come from town.

Well, deal with it, it just did.

[Empire]

Start scumhunting.

Pretty sure I've made my thoughts known? They haven't really changed. I thought CES calling Benmage OGML's scum partner was pretty weird but it seems like he retracted it in #1471. Aside from that, nothing really interesting has happened and I'm not going to force myself to say something when I don't have anything to say (P.S.: that post was mostly a prod dodge but I was trying to at least make it somewhat useful).

P-edit: Actually now that you've brought it up, OGML hit a couple of those in #1469 so the townread has gotten a bit stronger. And I was waiting to hear what Nacho had to say before interjecting.

[Empire]

It wasn't the I don't have anything to say by itself. I've made that post a dozen times. It was that coupled with the "anyone have things to ask me" that struck a nerve.

Besides, you know who you want lynched and have made that clear. But when your last post before this is that everyone looks town, it's especially odd. (not the everyone looks town, I've been there, but the passive posting)

This is ridiculous and the fact that it's coming after I've posted an ISO that you of all people know damn well never ever comes from me as scum in million years is even more baffling. Asking to be engaged in the game is not even remotely as scumtell (BBmolla did something like this in Sherlock as town, from memory) so I have no idea where you're getting this from. And I don't see how my thinking lots of people look town is even relevant here considering how I play and considering how clear I've made those opinions over the course of the game.

In case you haven't realized, I've been posting passively lately out of a combination of being super busy, having nothing to say, and just generally being demoralized because of how shitty I've been playing overall lately. I hate the fact that I feel disengaged from this game but at the same time I don't really have anything to say.

[Empire]

Like, are you trolling me into being more proactive or because you're entertaining a wonky paranoid theory about me or what? Because this is what this feels like.

[Empire]

My phone is about to run out of batteries, just posting from here to say that I won't have access until later tonight and I'll catch up then.

[Empire]

Hey, I just got back and I'm still pretty drunk, gonna start catching up now? Will this be as bad as last time, lets find out

[Empire]

That post didn't look connected to the thread at all. Anger is a perfectly understandable reaction in many cases but there was nothing here that that post works as a reaction to. Recognize the shortcut you're making.

That's not what I was getting at, i meant his Llamarble suspicion in that post adn the bit of stuff leading up to it. I thought the Nacho suspicion was townish initially but looking back the reasioning for it seems kind of weak given the seeming strength of the read but yeah overall I thought that was town. From what I remember in that one scum game Tierce linked, he just basically tunneled on one player for weak reasons and didn't really seem all that interested in other players.

Also, I don't get why you're being so dismissive of his reactions generally. I think typically players who perceive themselves as stronger town/really weak scum (which OGML seems to) normally don't give a shit when they're being wagoned as scum or when they're not being listened to (at least that's the case with me and I'm pretty sure that's the case with anyone else I know like that) which seems pretty much unlike his reactions here.

[Empire]

By the way, Empire, Tammy: stop it, you two, this is probably one of the Towniest games I've seen from both of you and you have both been ridiculously busy; lower activity and participation is understandable. Yeah, you want each other to participate more, but just SAY SO instead of going on walls about it. You're either Town or GODMODE SCUM, and I don't think you're in any RL state to become GODMODE SCUM at this point. So give this game what time you

do

have and stop bickering.

Ok FINE but she said really mean and hurtful things to me

I do want to say a couple of things though @ Tammy

1) I thought it was pretty obvious that i was trolling you into towninating during our whole back and forth on D1 despite me saying I wasn't <_< I admit, I was a bit paranoid, sure, but I was never like actually suspicious of you or anything.
2) I brought up the BBmolla thing as a counterexample, though i did misremember the game, i thought he talked more generally than just Tierce. Regardless, I still maintain that it's not even remotely a scummy post and I HAVE seen town do it all the time.
3) The main reason that I'm overreacting frankly the last thing I want to deal with this game is paranoid bullshit coming from you about me when it should be pretty fucking evident that I'm town to anyone who knows an iota about my meta. You even said it yourself that I've dropped at least five of my towntells this game so unless you think that my scum game has magically and vastly improved from Rarefaction I (a game that has happened something like half a year ago now or something) you shouldn't even have doubt.

[Empire]

What sort of intent do you think I had as scum in answering a question directed at CES?
...
That's part of BBMolla's meta.

Seriously, dude? Of all the stuff Tammy and I had just said towards each other, you only pick those two things to talk about?

To answer your question, I think that's bad play and not alignment indicative (I mean, I can obviously see the scum motivation for it but it't something that's done a lot as town too -- I do it sometimes when i'm overeager and not really thinking.

[Empire]

Ok, I'm gonna start combining quotes now since I hate spam posting as much as most people and I don't want to clutter the thread. Also, the Nacho quote tags are a huge pain in the ass.

Okay, mad you aren't more in the game (ditto) don't know what to say...

How about a vote dude????!1??Mrtownread... Preferably on Nacho.

Yeah, I know, I'll vote tomorrow morning when I'm more soberish, I'm fine with the two main wagons on CES/Nacho though

This easy? It seems like you have been having a lot of trouble with the game recently; this easy isn't really something I wanted to hear from you.
...
Weren't you going to meta me?

You should try reading that post in context and check the actual implication of what I was saying. And I'm fairly fucking sure I did meta you on the wallpost issue a while back when Tierce asked me to.

Also, I don';t know if it's because I'm having sobriety issues right now but I have no clue where in the world you're getting your DV meta from and I'm having major issues with the rest of the case. If you've read any of DV's scum games (castle zar, la la land, whatever that weird pokemon upick was called), you'd know that DV has no trouble faking bullshit concrete reasoning as scum and I think him being upfront with the fact that he has little more than gut feeling/minimal reasoning is a pretty significant towntell for him, especially gicven that I think DV is far more image conscious as scum than to do that.

There's a few other things I have problems with in that case but the big one that bothers me is the early game posts you quoted. I need to check again but I'm pretty sure you had a townread on him relatively far into the day despite him making those posts and I'm pretty sure you didn't mention them at all, so why bring them up as scummy now? Also, if you have meta knowledge that DV loves to be persuaded to join wagons as scum (quoting one post in one game to support that proposition is weaksauce btw), why didn't you bring those early game posts up as scummy back then? Idk if I'm making any sense right now but yeah.

[Empire]

Um... Nacho you never scumread me...

So if you don't think I'm doing anything townish (which doesn't make much sense considering your earlier townread on me), am I not allowed to find someone else not-townish? I don't get that at all.

Regarding CES, because he's mostly just a 'feels town' read (and I'm sorry, but that's all I had at that time), he's now in the not-very-town category.

Most of your points just don't seem good at all to me though, and I'm not going to be really annoying and keep insisting that people answer a question if everybody ignores it. Maybe I should be, I don't know, but I just can't really do that.

This has just come out of nowhere and it really feels like he's just gone 'Hmmm, I think I'll attack DV. He always has juicy reactions' and then looked through my ISO and just come up with whatever. He's also really misrepresenting my meta, since that post is obviously more of a 'I'm so town. Look at me!" post than anything else and I think he knows that.

Llamarble, I don't really understand what you find to be good about the case? I'm trying to be objective about it, and I just see it as bad-sounding stuff that isn't actually scummy at all.

Ok yeah, can we not lynch this guy? That would rule.

Tammy, I hope the abiove two posts answers your questions but if you want me to clarify stuff let me know ASAP so i can do it when I wake up.

Tierce your thoughts on DV's reaction?

[Empire]

Taaaaammmmy. Empire was drunk and he hasn't been having a good time IRL. Yeah, you thought it was a scummy post, you've talked about it at length, at this point it's just you two ranting at each other. Save it for Cerulean games?

Yeah can you remind me to never ever post again while drunk? Those were pretty bad posts (I'm also hungover )

Empire: before you consider anything else with CES, think back to Sherlock and how he behaved with his wagon + claim. He's Town, he wouldn't have an issue claiming

anything

as scum, but as Town he knows that a claim is unlikely to get him out of a noose so he's not bothering. Vote Nacho.

Uhh are you sure this is true? I kinda feel like CES would rely more on his rhetoric than a claim to save himself from a lynch regardless of his alignment really (it kind of sucks that I don't think I've ever seen CES wagoned like this when he was scum so I can't say for sure -- the most I have is that Westeros game Tammy is referring to with the tracker guilty).

Just an FYI, I won't be here at all during deadline most likely, so whatever vote I put down will be final (thanks for putting the pressure on me, Tammy <_< ).

[Empire]

Ok so I read through Revolution Mafia again and he had the same reaction re: his claim but that game seemed to be an all-vanilla game from my understanding? (I don't have time to go through all the details of how that game worked, CES seemed to be a vanilla/goon-type role with some sort of power that he either had or was given to him?).

One thing that really bothered me was the way he dismissed Llamarble's arguments as generalities that had no basis in the thread (which is what he's doing here) but I kinda expect CES to make this argument as town, too.

Tierce, if you're here, could REALLY use some clarification on the whole CES-claim thing.

[Empire]

I just gave CTD's ISO another look and if CTD dropped hints to either/both of CES/Nacho then he disguised them really fucking well because I can't find them (or maybe I'm just bad, whatever).

I'm kind of annoyed both CES and Nacho aren't even here, especially Nacho since I wanted to see him respond to what people have been recently saying re: his DV case.

[Empire]

I think they both have a decent chance of flipping scum.

I agree but I'm a waffly baby and I actually really want to get this right. I hope this turns out like the time we deadline lynched Zach in Castle Zar and he came back scum.

[Empire]

What's frustrating is that both of them left their vote on someone who isn't getting lynched. And I have a sneaking feeling they're both laughing at us trying to figure out which one we should lynch when they would both flip scum.

This really bugs the shit out of me too, both of those votes are awful. Nacho's because the DV vote seemingly came from nowhere + his case sucks, CES's because reading over his play it feels like the N/OGML scumread is always going to be there no matter what which is weird for a guy who considers consistency a scumtell (his reads have been pretty static this whole game too).

[Empire]

I'm fairly sure he relies on rhetoric as either alignment, but the most he has done here is dodge the claim necessity (which he did Yesterday) and blatantly not claim when DV threatened to hammer and he was online Today. Not much pragmatism for scum CES in that line of thought, is there?

Ugh, yeah you're right in a sense but there's a lot of benefit to not claiming as scum generally (town are naturally going to be afraid of possibly lynching a PR + remember how people reacted to N's refusal to claim?). I think it's something he knows he can get away with too if he's scum.

[Empire]

I'll be around for a little bit longer because I'm already late to what I was supposed to go to tonight, but it's a party so I don't think anyone will care. I'll vote within the next 30 minutes.

Do you really think CES-scum would push on as lousy a target as OGML?

Yes. He did that in that Westeros game Tammy referenced from memory (Tammy can correct me if I'm wrong here).

[Empire]

I also think he generally pushed weak/easy targets in NY 155 too.

[Empire]

Feh, ok, I've decided.

Vote: Nacho

I don't have time to go into detail for why I'm picking this vote over CES since I really have to go but I think him and CES are both good shots at hitting scum, if you guys want to rush lynch CES without me I won't really care.

Zach is basically confirmed town via Vi's result (though I also agree with Tierce that this is Zach playing to his town-meta). Tammy and Tierce are town. These are all non-negotiable.

I have weaker townreads on DV, Llamarble, and Benmage, but DV is slowly inching towards the non-negotiable pile and I think Llamarble is heading there too last time I reread him. OGML might be town too but I really just wish he'd post more for me to get a better handle on him.

That leaves CES, Nacho, and Shadoweh, which takes me back to where I was a while ago. I don't know what to think of Shadoweh. Yeah I know she isn't bad as scum but there's a bit of stuff in her ISO that reads really genuine to me which makes me think I'm wrong about someone else. I've been trying to figure out who I could be wrong about but it hasn't led me anywhere, since there's just a lot that looks town here.

I know the chances of me dying tonight are pretty much 0 but I wanted to lay this out since this is going to be my last post.

I fucking hope to the god I don't believe in that this is a scum flip. Otherwise, I'm going to bawl.

[Empire]

I WAS SERIOUS

OK LATER

[Empire]

YOU ARE THE MEANEST PERSON

OK LEAVING NOW FOR REAL, BYE

[Empire]

THANK FUCKING GOD

Vote: CES

[Empire]

Also, heads up, I have a lot of shit due this week (including a motion that is worth a ridiculous portion of my grade in one of my classes) so I won't be able to post all that much but I should be able to squeeze in some time to do interaction type stuff.

[Empire]

Also also, pet theory: Nacho was more motivated this game than in Zach's F11 Micro (where he basically seemed demoralized that he had drawn scum) because he had competent scum partners on his team.

[Empire]

Seems more like someone was badgering him to produce content, which provoked that mighty D1 reads post. Still, that does point toward at least one competent partner that was pushing him toward being more active and participatory. Admittedly, that's pretty much everyone alive as scum except OGML, you, me (and DeasVail to some extent because I don't think it'd be Deas's type to push a partner so, but I might be wrong), so :hitoshrug:.

I think the motivation came from within because he made that kind of post in Always On as a traitor (e.g., with no prompting from his scum buddies despite his somewhat low activity that game prior to that post). Could easily see that happening if he has someone who plays a strong scum game on his team.

[Empire]

A lot of his discussion with DV sounded almost coachy, and wheeling on him late for things he could have mentioned earlier certainly could be a buddy-vote.
And while this isn't Nacho-end, DV did offer to hammer CES when his preferred Nacho wagon was the main alternative.

I can see your point re: the timing of Nacho's case but I disagree with the coachy stuff. It makes sense only if you consider DV an inexperienced/incompetent scum player but I think DV does just fine as scum that Nacho wouldn't feel the need to interact with him in that way if they were partners. I suggest you take a look at Mafia in La La Land where they were scum partners (I'm going to do it myself when I have time.)

That's a good point. (And Nacho is competent enough himself and willing enough to play scum that he

needs

no prodding like that.) Might not be so much a competent scumbuddy(ies) but the fact that he has a hell of a playerlist to beat? I mean, yes, there were several very good players in Zachyard as well, and he was saddled with a less-than-optimal scumbuddy, but this game seems to take more work for scum than an F11 setup.

It's possible I guess but the town roster was very stacked in F11 to the extent that it visibly took a toll on his morale (check the scum QT -- especially that comment where he says he'll hate Zach if CES is the doctor) which is so different from his approach here that I think my theory is more likely. The setup taking more effort for scum might not be such a big deal for two reasons: 1) We don't know that's the case because we don't know what kind of power scum have to offset what we have (contrast this with Nacho feeling constrained by the setup almost right off the bat in F11), and 2) Even if we assume the setup is townsided, it might not be that big of a deal standing alone if he has someone like, say, the dude I'm voting on his team. I don't know if I'm making sense here, but yeah.

@OGML:

What made you feel uncomfortable about Llamarble last Day phase and what is your current opinion of him?

[Empire]

Dodging the prod right now, have a massive assignment due tomorrow. Want to get through DV's and Benmage's interactions with Nacho after I turn it in.

[Empire]

Recently got back from a party, surprisingly not drunk but exhausted, I've gone over DV and Benmage and have taken notes so I'll write up a synopsis of their play and their interactions with Nacho when I wake up.

Empire, what do you think of the argument Nacho and CTD were having over whether to lynch N or not? I would dearly like to believe that OGML's phoning it in is coming from a limping scum.

I honestly thought about that at some point during the last Night phase and the only thing I could come up with is that traitors don't make sense (on my other site, traitors work very differently mechanically and are very rarely used). Reading over them again, the CTD/Nacho interaction is kind of weird for scum/scum even without the N stuff but it seems even weirder for posts like CTD's #522 to come across like him trying to persuade Nacho to bus -- I don't really have anything to substantiate this though. Basically, at this point, I'm ready to ditch everything CTD said as WIFOM-laced red herring type nonsense and just pursue other leads especially given that we have another scum flip to mine through for interactions.

EMPIRE

why are you voting CES?

PoE, like I said before. Thinking over the number of townreads I have, especially the strong ones, I have a really hard imagining a scum team without CES in it so I think he's the best shot at hitting scum today.

[Empire]

DEASVAIL

--> Very little interaction between him and Nacho on D1, only beginning to speak to each other in #204 + #207 which I'd think works as both scum/town and scum/scum. Then there's the coachy-type stuff I think Llamarble was referring to earlier that starts at #693 where Nacho prods DV and asks him to organize his reads. Oddly enough my initial impression was that this actually points

against

them being partners because I didn't think Nacho would feel the need to coach/prod DV (who plays a competent scum game on his own) if they were partners, but I checked out the way they interacted with each other in Mafia in La La Land and there were some spots where Nacho did do that so I'm left with a big "?" there.

--> I think #848 is a pretty big point against them being a team, don't really see the incentive for DV-scum to start undermining the townreads on Nacho he was getting off his huge end-of-D1 wallpost by referencing Always On and even implying that it might be a scumtell that post (+ the way DV says he really wants Nacho to be town reads really genuine to me).

--> Ok, so there's the elephant in the room which is Nacho's DV case at the end of the last Day. Context-wise, I'm not really sure Nacho perceived that the lynch was 100% between himself/CES, especially given that all of our lynches up to that point had been deadline flash wagons. This is probably super pretentious conjecture, but at the time, a lot of people expressed either null or scumreads on DV so I think he was going for a deadline compromise mislynch there. I also don't think Nacho generally makes full-fledged cases on his buddies as in #1519 generally and I think DV's back-and-forth/reaction to the case in general (ex: #1505 + #1529) feel really natural and town (think DV would come across a lot more awkward if he were scum).

--> I've already mentioned all the stuff off DV's individual play that really make me think he's town here, if anyone wants me to repeat it or update it let me know, but I think I've made thoughts there well known.

CONCLUSION: Looking over DV again and his interaction with Nacho-scum makes me feel really good about him being town here so I think at this point he can join the non-negotiable pile with Tierce and Tammy.

I'm being dragged off to a convention again (sigh) so I'll put up the Benmage stuff tonight or at some point tomorrow and hopefully get through the first of CES/Llamarble/Shadoweh on the next pass.

[Empire]

Quick post before bed time.

benmage giving himself a pat on the back for his scumhunting while doing almost zilch to get 'marble lynched.

How is that reflective of his alignment rather than Ben just being Ben? He seems like he has a large enough ego to do this as either alignment.

Can we talk about Zach's death for a moment? Yes, he was absolutely clear once Nacho flipped Goon, but... why Zach? Simply a random choice among obvTown? Are the last scum more afraid of him than of Empire, Tammy or I? What happened there? This game seems to have more obvTown than the scum know what to do with, but they jumped from PR hunting to eliminating someone who was a guaranteed vanilla and who generally opposed the Nacho lynch until the hammer. Why Zach and not one of the three of us?

Am I weird then in thinking the only weird kill so far is the Johhog one (who, by the way, at least one member of the scum team had to have picked up on his crumb and I don't think Nacho did)? If Vi had been killed that night without having claimed, then sure that would be strange, but it's not like they were hunting for PRs at that point.

I was going to say something else but it would spark a line of inquiry I really really don't want to go down right now.

[Empire]

Empire, I'm a bit confused. No, they were not hunting for PRs with Vi, but we know that the scumteam knew Vi was essentially an innocent-cop, because Vi's role clears VTs, and probably didn't want another clear in their hands. That said, the Vi + Zach kills together make sense, because it's reducing an ever-increasing pile of obv/confTown. Johhog's death is not that unexpected if they were the ones shooting him--there was a softclaimed PR, and if they picked up on it, etc.

I'm exhausted so I think my post didn't come out as I expected it to. Basically what I'm saying is the Vi + Zach kills both seem really conservative to me (I agree with Tammy that Zach was the obvious kill choice -- he was both clear and a competent player and I would have been weirded out by any other kill choice) and any scum team configuration would have done it. The Johhog kill is a lot more particular; it stands out for me because he drew a lot of suspicion and was being pushed by a lot of people despite his softclaim (and it's really the only kill that qualifies as PR hunting). Most of the people alive didn't pick up on it and there's something that really makes me think Nacho didn't.

If I still don't make sense, let me know so I can go force myself to bed like I should right now.

[Empire]

Posting from phone since I just got our of my exam.

Never have I been more happy to have been ignored.

I'm pissed that I died when I did because I was going to argue that Benmage was obvtown via meta but never got the chance to do it. I would have really hated myself if he came back scum.

I skimmed the scum QT and I don't know what game you guys were reading but I was like the furthest from scary.

More later when I get back home.

[Empire]

I thought I had a lot more to say but I guess not <_<

Anyway, thanks for modding the game Faraday (the flavor especially owned).

I thought both sides played very well. Really hope to see you guys in future games, especially the people I've not played with before.