Micro 134 (F11) (Game Over!)

[Dazed and Confused]

Vote: Sixty

So Tierce, on a scale from 1 to 10, how afraid are you of me right now?

(It's ok to be scared, you know.)

[Dazed and Confused]

Vote: Dazed and Confused

This vote doesn't move until Mina makes this slot obvtown.

Pfft, I'm already obvtown, son.

(P.S.: I'm easier to read than Mina.)

[Dazed and Confused]

Dear Empire, he of obvTown,
Why are you voting us?

Because I take sadistic pleasure in undermining your confidence when you're scum.

I always put my random vote on the player I think would be most likely to give an alignment indicative response when wagoned. Plus Mina's a troll and thought it'd be funny.

About how long did it take you to plan out your response to my vote? (You had to have known it was coming, no?)

[Dazed and Confused]

Is CES Town?

Erm, you know as well as I do that I can't read CES for shit. One of the first things I asked Mina during pre-game was whether she could read CES with any sort of confidence and she basically said "no" but there were some things to look out for. Given that she's hydra'd with the guy as town more than once and they've played a lot more together than we have, I'm pretty much deferring to her on CES.

Actually, let's give you something that you might have to brain about a bit more, Empire. Is Rach Town?

Overall, tonally she comes off a bit forced but I remember reading some of the games she was in and I think she's like that as both alignments. First impression of Rach's #12 was that it seemed like hollow posturing about something easy but #20 seems ok in that I don't think she would suddenly take the whole "sucking up to CES" angle as scum (she presumably knows CES is sharp as town too, no?). Ask me again in a few pages though because it's still page 1 and I don't have much confidence in anything right now.

Well, except one thing: would you believe me if I townread you after your second post?

Unvote, vote: Jason

[Dazed and Confused]

So I know he is a smart cookie as town, so therefore I will be examining him carefully because I am sure he is also very good at playing scum.

How does one lead to the other?

Not quite sure what you mean here. Are you saying you Townread me (hi! You really should!) and this is mostly a rhetorical throwaway comment, or are you

actually

asking if I should believe you Townread us at that point?

A bit of both, but primarily the latter.

P-edit: @Tierce: I...was literally just considering that possibility and I guess? But if scum have pre-game chat (and I think that's the case or at least it was during the two completed games I had as scum), wouldn't CES have the foresight to coach her against that kind of distancing given her attitude when signing up for the game?

I feel like I'm heading way too far into tinfoil theory and it's only fucking page 2.

[Dazed and Confused]

Rach, I'm the dude who wrote this and I've hydra'd with Tierce as town twice + she's one of the few people who've actually seen me as scum so we both know how to read each other fairly well. Most recent completed town game is here and I link both my completed scum games in this post.

[Dazed and Confused]

Rach, did you ever respond to my question in #32?

That would be a ballsy move for ScumJason, lets see what he comes back with. Right now, I'm not buying it.

My main concern is that that could be exactly what he's going for -- the L-1 vote and call for quickhammer in #23 feels a little too over-the-top and #36 is weird in that he doesn't outline whatever issue it is he wants us to "weigh in" on before he outs his reasons.

[Dazed and Confused]

The dazed and confused half of Dazed and Confused checking in, but I have to leave right now, anyway. I'm essentially just posting to say neither of us will be around much today and I'll have no access to a computer until this evening. (Also, my version of the Sixty vote was a lot cooler and less arrogant than Empire's was.)

Nacho, you're no fun. What's the point of hydraing with Empire if I have to be obvtown

myself

? Are you telling me I have to work,

too

? See for example, right now, I'm posting nothing but a useless post dodge and no relevant opinions other than a throwaway question in response to what looks like an unremarkable post. If I was hydraing with CES, we'd be the biggest wagon by the time I came home from work. But it doesn't matter, because thanks to the power of Empire, I'm untouchable! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! FREEDOM! *goes streaking through the thread*

I already feel out of the loop in this game.

Don't worry, Sotty, it's natural. There are only two scum PMs out there.

I know this sounds like a trivial, but can you explain how exactly do you feel out of the loop? Don't you know most of the people in this game?

Haven't communicated with Empire since this game started, but it's probably a bad sign that the players I thought were the only possible mislynches when the player are all suspects of mine to some degree.

[Dazed and Confused]

If I had to depend on Empire's towniness in order to get a read on this slot, then I'd actually have to read his walls.

Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum

My posts own, actually.

(P.S.: You feel vaguely like lurker-scum. Is this true?)

[Dazed and Confused]

I find it hilarious that I probably wouldn't be this confident in Sixty's alignment if you removed all posts or comments from Tierce bashing us over the head with "Omigod I'm town I'm town I'm TOWN and did I mention how happy I am that I got a town role PM as well as how obvious this fact will be to everyone within five minutes? " In theory, you'd think it's a bad idea to just take someone's word for it; in

practice

, on the other hand...

I won't do the whole "post a couple of wishy-washy sentences about every single living player in the game" thing, since my opinions are

probably all wrong

still in flux this early. Besides, I actually think it's antitown to show all your cards TOO early in the game. (However, a random fluffy aside: )

Instead, questions!

FourTrouble, what exactly is the scum motivation of
jasonT, has everyone

Nacho, you think I'm the readable one because...um...Empire writes too many walls for you to bother reading him? There's an obvious problem with that logic (Empire is never actually online when I am, so I can't ask him.) Um...FYI, our alternate name for this hydra was going to be "The Wall". And why did you first say? (Also, the post. Also, how different would your play be if you were town/scum here?

CES, how differently do you think Nacho would be playing if he was town? Also, how differently would

you

be playing if you were the opposite alignment to what you are now? Also also, do you suspect jason? (Also also also, sorry if that post read like I was blaming you for us getting wagoned in ADwD; it's more that when I hydra with someone who

isn't

very open or readable, the burden falls upon me to be the barometer of the slot's alignment, and so any slightly awkward or vaguely post I make or period of time where my other head picks up the slack is blown out of proportion.)

[Dazed and Confused]

Oh,

fuck

. Can everyone please ignore the above post?

It had been so long since that happened before, too.

Zach, can you delete our last post? I accidentally hit submit in the middle of writing it.

[Dazed and Confused]

Sorry for the delay; I kept getting interrupted in the middle of this. But now, my post as it was

intended

to be experienced.

I find it hilarious that I probably wouldn't be this confident in Sixty's alignment if you removed all posts or comments from Tierce bashing us over the head with "Omigod I'm town I'm town I'm TOWN and did I mention how happy I am that I got a town role PM as well as how obvious this fact will be to everyone within five minutes? " In theory, you'd think it's a bad idea to just take someone's word for it; in

practice

, on the other hand...

Anyway, I won't do the whole "post a couple of wishy-washy sentences about every single living player in the game" thing just yet. Instead, questions!

1)

FourTrouble

, I really don't understand your arguments at all in your exchange with RachMarie. What do you think is Rach's scum motivation for saying that you might do something careless

by accident

? You yourself said it was implying you were

town

as opposed to careless scum. And yet you attacked her for "undermining your credibility"? Also, why didn't you mention the stuff about her being opportunistic when you first voted her?

2)

Josh Lyman

, it was implied that you like to quickhammer people at L-1. Is this true?

3)

Nachomamma8

, you think I'm the readable one because...um...Empire writes too many walls for you to bother reading him? There's an obvious problem with that logic. (Hint: alternate possibilities for the name of this hydra were "The Wall" and "Ramble On".) What's weirder is that first you say you don't trust Empire because "he hides behind hydras" (huh?) but then use t? Can I have a serious, non-coy answer to where your meta stance came from? Also, although I don't fault the

idea

of "I'll vote this person I believe is easy to read until he/she is obvtown" in RVS, the post I made that changed your mind was literally, "Empire is obvtown, so I don't have to do anything."

I'd also like to know where your CES vote comes from. Lastly, would you have played this game any differently if you were the opposite alignment to what you are now?

4)

CES

, how differently do you think Nacho would be playing if he was town? Also also, do you suspect jason? Also also also, do you believe that Nacho/Josh are the scumteam because they look a smidgen scummier than your other suspects, or because you have no other scumreads? (Also also also also, sorry if that post read like I was blaming you for us getting wagoned in ADwD; it's more that when I hydra with someone who

isn't

very open or readable, the burden falls upon me to be the barometer of the slot's alignment, and so any slightly awkward or vaguely post I make or period of time where my other head picks up the slack is blown out of proportion.)

[Dazed and Confused]

EBWOP: I fail at sentence completion even when I intentionally submit my posts.

What's weirder is that first you say you don't trust Empire because "he hides behind hydras" (huh?) but then use t

he excuse that he walls a lot more than me to explain where you read is coming from.

[Dazed and Confused]

EBWOAP: AAAAAH! "the excuse that he walls a lot more than me to explain why you're relying on me instead of Empire to gauge the slot's trustworthiness." My brain runs on autopilot sometimes.

[Dazed and Confused]

FT, what do you think of the other players? I mean, Rach is cool and all but I feel lonely and left out

[Dazed and Confused]

I literally just logged in to do that, shush <_<

Unvote, vote: Nacho

[Dazed and Confused]

No. Feel underneath my rough exterior and you can feel the real me.

Sorry, but I've been burned by too many of your type

I guess lurking is the wrong word to use here. (Maybe active lurking?) My main issue is that you seem distant/disengaged, you ask some questions but you don't appear like you care about the answers. For example, you seemed interested in the whole FT/Rach argument when you asked FT something in #47 but there's no sign that you've considered his response. Basically, the impression I'm getting is that you're trying to seem busy and contributory but you're not genuinely/actively scumhunting.

[Dazed and Confused]

Oh and Nacho, justifying the CES vote as a "feeling" ain't gonna fly, not when the vote came at a really suspicious time (e.g., when the pressure started to mount against you).

[Dazed and Confused]

Dazed and Confused, to answer your questions, I called Rach scum because she was making claims about my play that are not true and can be used to call my credibility into question. I actually saw another player do the same thing in a game I just played and, big surprise, he was scum. I didn't mention her "opportunistic" vote on Jason at first because I didn't read it as something scummy at first, looking at things in retrospect often helps solidify my reads. What do you think of Rach? Also, I don't understand some of your questions, like what are you trying to achieve by asking me for thoughts about "other" players? I mean maybe I have something to say maybe I don't, either way I don't see how the answer to that question tells you anything about my alignment. Is there any reason you asked me in specific?

I asked you for your opinions on other players because, though I'm leaning towards you being town, you seemed to have a really narrow focus (e.g., focusing on one player, Rach, when there was a lot more going on in the thread) and that was something bugging both me and my other head. I've seen you play as town in other games and I know you're capable of ~opinions~ on more than just one person so I wanted you to get a bit more involved in the game here.

As for Rach, I'm leaning towards her being town as well but I've been meaning to look into some of her meta before I go and solidify that read. I have class all day tomorrow so expect a more comprehensive post late tomorrow or early Friday after I talk some things through with the other head.

See the post above you for why I'm voting Nacho...though it sometimes is damn sexy to vote alongside CES.

[Dazed and Confused]

Sixty, are we reading the same 111? That post pretty much nullified my entire scumread (disclaimer: this was solely a Mina scumread) on FourTrouble.

This may be premature, but right now, I think both scum lie among {Nacho, Josh, Sotty, jason} and we're on the verge of an easy win.

(...and...now that I just posted that, I've jinxed it, and it'll turn out that the Mafia are CES and Sixty.)

[Dazed and Confused]

Sixty, the lack of concrete stances is a fair point (although not alignment-indicative for some players)--I didn't like that he asked us that question but never actually said if he had a read on us. But even though he doesn't mention stances on

every

single player (who doesn't?), the questions he's asking are all tied into the directions he seems to be heading in his scumhunting--he's clearly not just blindly poking at people. And call me a sucker for gut and tone, I guess. He says lots of stuff that looks like he's actually scumhunting and thinking about the game. For example, this is super town:

Dazed and Confused, to answer your questions, I called Rach scum because she was making claims about my play that are not true and can be used to call my credibility into question. I actually saw another player do the same thing in a game I just played and, big surprise, he was scum. I didn't mention her "opportunistic" vote on Jason at first because I didn't read it as something scummy at first, looking at things in retrospect often helps solidify my reads.

I also thought his paranoia of CES and his

wanting

him to be town felt organic.

Sotty, am I imagining that you downplayed CES's play in Sherlock Mafia?

[Dazed and Confused]

Yet another EBWOP (this head has posted more

corrections

to posts than first drafts of them):

he's clearly not just

blindly

mechanically poking at people arbitrarily.

[Dazed and Confused]

Care to make a good vote now, Staggered and Stunned?

If you suspect jason, then why is a vote on him a bad one? (And "not as good as a Nacho or Josh" vote doesn't count as a reason.)

[Dazed and Confused]

Thanks for the games Rach, will look through them tomorrow when I'm far less exhausted. Expect the big obnoxious wall then.

[Dazed and Confused]

Ok so the reads list is going to have to wait until tomorrow since I'm getting hauled off to a BBQ. I do want to say, Vi/Tierce, that I don't agree with your interpretation of FT's #111 at all and I think you guys are applying way too high of a standard, especially in the early game -- FT comes across in that post to me as more like a guy who is genuinely struggling to get concrete reads this game rather than opportunistic scum or scum who can't fabricate reads and his whole paranoia of CES + really wishing for him to be town because he knows he's laser accurate seems really genuine.

What do you guys think of Sotty and Jason? Preview of coming attractions: I have Jason as slightly leaning town and Sotty as null.

[Dazed and Confused]

I'm terrible and the ~content~ is going to have to wait another day since I'm going out tonight and Mina's busy and I want to go over some things with her.

Sixty, can you answer our question in #150 please? Also how did you guys get such a strong townread on our slot so early? I know I'm super easy to read but uhh yeah.

[Dazed and Confused]

Nacho's CES meta is accurate, if nothing else. Empire, thoughts?

How so?

And personally, I've given up on even trying to read CES so I'm just going to sheep Mina on him since she's more versed in CESology than I am/wait for him to get nightkilled if he's town.

[Dazed and Confused]

Gah, Empire and I are too similar, so we're kind of fractured and aimless right now. Also, since we've both been really busy this week, we're basically never online at the same time for long enough to come to an actual decision on our reads.

Have stuff I want to say about CES and Sotty that I'll save for another post to make this less of a wall, but scattered thoughts/questions:

-My head agrees with everything Tierce said in this post. My heart kind of likes the tone of Josh's 189 (well, I like him pointing out that Sotty's reaction to Sixty looks town, and Empire likes his being flippant about Nacho's meta). I acknowledge that this is a personal failure on my part and makes me a bad person.

But Josh, do you realize that in your vote on jason, you did almost the

exact same thing

you voted him for? Why did you unvote him after the wagon lost momentum?

-Nacho, what was the point of your massive analysis of CES's meta? You didn't actually connect any of that to anything he's done this game. You're just telling him what kinds of behaviour you'll read as town from him in advance. And that still doesn't explain why you don't like CES in the first place.

-RachMarie is a weak gut town read for how guileless/earnest she sounds, but she could be scum simply because I seem to think almost everyone else in the game is town. She does come across as forced sometimes, and the point about her meta fluff is fair, I guess. (This read is pending on my other head's meta research.)

-Sixty, I know you essentially said, "Read my posts!" when Sotty asked about your FT read. But why didn't you react to our defence of FT? You didn't even go, "Sorry, but I think you're wrong because X," just ignored them and continued attacking FourTrouble.

[Dazed and Confused]

Yet another EBWOP:

And that still doesn't explain why you

don't like

voted for CES in the first place.

=========================================

I might vote jason if I were alone right now (mostly from PoE), because although Nacho hasn't done anything to make me think he's town, I'm not sure he's done anything particularly

unlikely

to come from town. (Does that make any sense?) But Empire is more confident on Nacho.

Anyway, Sotty is a point of contention for this hydra, but this half thinks her reaction to Sixty looks townish. Her points make sense for someone unfamiliar with Tierce's meta, and she's attacking a hard target instead of just going with the flow. I didn't get an "undermining a trusted player" vibe from her attacks on Sixty, but a sense that she genuinely had an unpopular opinion and was restraining her paranoia because we were vouching for Sixty. (That said, I'd have oddly felt better about her if she hadn't backed away from her Sixty suspicions, or if she'd voted Sixty instead of posting a giant case on Rach, the easier lynch.)

And I think this, as well as all her frustration with Sixty's vote in general, is more likely to come from town!Sotty.

But some things bug me:

D+C is town because I like their pushes. CES can be town until I decide otherwise, he's hard to read and I explained my four vote.

1) Which "pushes" have we made that you like?

2) So, um...CES is not null, but your third strongest town read solely because...you can't read CES?

3) Why didn't you mention Sixty's reaction to jason's L-1 vote at the time, if it was a major factor in your jason town read? How does that even make any sense? (jason is town because you don't like a post Sixty made after his vote?)

I'll save the CES post for later.

[Dazed and Confused]

I just reread the thread, because I thought that was

way

more important than talking about that CES loser. On second thought, Josh can still definitely be scum. Also, no longer as confident in FT being town, because his 111 isn't as genuine as I remembered (the comment about CES attacking lurkers sucked), he keeps insisting stuff he does isn't scummy

way

too much, and I don't like how much he discusses the kinds of things he normally finds scummy/how he usually behaves (scum do that a lot, because it's much easier to talk about true things than your fake reads.) And I'm a bit paranoid because RachMarie looks town in the same way scum!Phillammon (sp?) did in Ponybash Invitational.

So...back to suspecting all the people who'd be lynched regardless of their alignment in this player list?

Fluffy comments (which are also more important than CES):

I kinda wanted to put my vote on the Puppy but only held off because Empire seems to be saying the obnoxious town thing is a common town meta? I kinda hate that but will have to look because I'm finding it extremely fake and crappy.

I/Mina said that about Tierce repeatedly calling herself obvtown. But Empire is convinced that Sixty is town (and that "Keep posting like scum, it's fun to watch" would never, ever come from scum!Tierce), so you can take his word for it.

Hint: alternate possibilities for the name of this hydra were "The Wall" and "Ramble On".

Both of those are better names by the bye. I'd've gone for Death and Taxes myself.

Does knowing the reference change your mind?

Lastly (and more importantly than CES), I still can't make my sig show up despite changing the option to attach it. Let's see if this only works on future posts.

[Dazed and Confused]

God, I'm going through Rach's games and I'm frustrated.

Initial reading of Micro 110 and Open 472 is that she is extremely proactive in scumhunting, more vocal about her disagreements with others, and gives somewhat involved meta analysis. Contrast this Micro 28 where she just kinda nodded her head along with Nacho and sucked up to him immensely and was much lurkerish/less proactive which I thought matched her play here (see: sucking up to CES, not really being proactive here). But then there's Open 397 and aaaaaaaaaah.

I'll try and go through FT's meta too.

[Dazed and Confused]

Sotty, just read this (+ the fact that we've hydra'd together twice + she's one of the few that have seen that rare thing called Empire as scum.)

[Dazed and Confused]

Point taken.

Now that I've shown you mine, can you talk about Jason's meta for a bit? Why might he be scum here?

[Dazed and Confused]

That would be a ballsy move for ScumJason, lets see what he comes back with. Right now, I'm not buying it.

Wanted to ask because of the above. I remember he turbo bussed his partner(s) in TM 2012 so I don't get the impression that he's risk adverse as scum and I think his self meta is somewhat accurate.

[Dazed and Confused]

Are you going to tell me that you have a town read of his slot right now?

Nah, I had him as leaning town before based on some superficial nonsense my other head quickly told me was dumb and I agreed so he's back in null.

[Dazed and Confused]

Can we just cut though the crap and get your scum reads and reasons for why? That would be most excellent.

this, too much talk of past games and meta is really putting me off!

Really? Is this seriously all you have to say?

[Dazed and Confused]

Also, for the people who give a shit, FT only has one scum game on site which he flaked out of and barely posted, so there goes that whole avenue of discussion.

[Dazed and Confused]

Since we're Town and everything, would you like to work together on cutting this game apart?

Only if you vote Nacho or Jason, thanks in advance.

[Dazed and Confused]

But still a good sign.

Not exactly. He's flaked from a ton of games as town, too, so it's not really alignment indicative.

[Dazed and Confused]

Sixty, I'll cut you some slack for the Sotty vote (because Empire had the same "OMIGOD SO SCUM" reaction to her big catch-up post), but since you're town unless you've dramatically changed your scum play overnight, you have no excuse for posting this:

Your reads in particular amount to "Town: people I agree with; scum: people I don't understand/don't agree with". That's not scumhunting,

that's going where the flow leads you.

2) All reads on other players are based on whether he would think it himself (216). It's ineffective at best and lazy at worst.

That's...not at all "going where the flow leads you" or "lazy" (and "ineffective" isn't a scumtell). I'm not arguing with you about it being poor play (at least, if you accept the premise that FT is guilty of this), but I hate you going the extra step of suggesting bogus motivations for why that behaviour is scummy. If anything, thinking favourably of people who mirror your thought process is something town are MUCH more likely to do! Do you really think it's credible that FT went, "I'm lazy scum, so it's too much work to make up fake reasons to suspect people! I'll save time by...making up fake opinions, and then extrapolating my other fake reads based on how closely these players match my set of fake opinions"?

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but someone has to break the harsh truth to you: your case kind of sucks. FT is throwing out lots of newer player town tells (yeah, um, ignore what I said before; I'm back to thinking FT's obviously town again, because his more recent posts reinforce that impression). Most of your points against him really aren't alignment relevant. Why are you so stubborn about this read?

Bad dog! No walk for you today!

Update: our new suspect pool is {Nacho, Josh, jason, RachMarie}. (Like the old suspect pool, except minus Sotty and plus Rach.)

===============

What about my comment on CES suddenly doesn't seem genuine? And what do you mean you don't like that I insist the stuff I do isn't scummy? I haven't just gone around saying I'm not scummy just for the sake of saying it, it was directly in response to Sixty's attack.

I wasn't stating a scumread on you so much as waffling on a townread (I might have been jumping at shadows because of Sixty's case), and like I said above, I've since changed my mind. So these answers are kind of crappy, because I don't even agree with them anymore.

Anyway, I didn't change my mind on the "I really hope CES is town" part, but the "why is CES only attacking lurkers?" part (since I didn't think that was true--I missed that you'd explained the Nacho lurker thing). I also just got an oily/soft vibe on a reread of the second paragraph of this post--maybe it was all the question marks. Sorry I don't have anything better than "gut." My gut reads can be really fluid; sometimes jump back and forth on the same post depending on my mood.

I don't think anyone

except for Tierce

just randomly announces that they're not scummy at all when they're not under attack. But I find certain kinds of overdefensiveness suspicious, because scum tend to be more concerned with self-preservation. (Yes, I know this isn't always true, but that's a debate for MD, not here.)

[Dazed and Confused]

"These people are thinking like I would as Town, so yeah, let's call them Town."

That's a fairly common townie line of thought, no?

[Dazed and Confused]

Busy today. Content tomorrow.

[Dazed and Confused]

Whiskers, you can start by telling us if your scumbuddy is Nacho, or if it's someone boring like jason?

D&C - Are you sure Nacho is scum?

No. We think he has a reasonable chance of being scum. (Come on, this hydra is 50% Mina.)

jason, are you saying that Sotty is town because she suspects you based on an actual case instead of your lack of activity?

CES, what makes you think the scumteam isn't Jason/Josh? Also, thoughts on Rach? On Nacho's most recent post?

[Dazed and Confused]

(I was thinking of 262, but you can answer for 265, also. How do they affect your read on Nacho's alignment?)

[Dazed and Confused]

Let's try this again. <_<

Cause I have seen it happen.

Besides I was not saying you are scum. you seem awfully defensive. I still have yet to determine who is scum and who is not.

^this is bad, but it's also bad. This whole conversation, I mean. I side with FourTrouble on this one-- this was a huge discrediting move and you should feel bad, if you're town.

VOTE: Whiskers

[Dazed and Confused]

I especially like your case.

Me too.

[Dazed and Confused]

Whiskers, explain in your own words how RachMarie is discrediting FourTrouble in her opening posts. Because I find it very, very, VERY hard to believe that this opinion would come from anyone who isn't FourTrouble himself. Had you stuck to agreeing with Sotty on Rach lurking and fluff-posting, I'd have found it plausible, but you fucked up.

[Dazed and Confused]

Well, when you put it like that, Whiskers, I'd better vote Sixty instead!

VOTE: Si-

...wait, then I'd lose my spot on your wagon. I want to look better when you flip!

A less flippant response (I'm not

always

this obnoxious): read 283. The rest of your play as well as Josh's fits with what scum would do in your shoes (particularly if your partner was jason or Nacho), and the way you're reacting to this vote is scummy, too. But that quote in particular is what

sealed

this read.

[Dazed and Confused]

There's nothing to get but a joke, Whiskers.

I'm pretty sure no one else (probably not even

FourTrouble

) read RachMarie's posts like that..nor would anyone who wasn't trying to justify his vote after the fact. And you still haven't shown us the scum motivation of Rach fictitiously calling FT a stupid cunt. Even FourTrouble was attacking Rach because he thought she was misrepresenting their prior history; you seem to have missed that while trying to justify how

scummy

it is to call someone scum in a vacuum.

But given that you didn't mention Sixty saying

literally the exact same thing about Josh Lyman

, when the only difference is that FT accused Rach of discrediting him and made you think it was safe to pad your case by parroting him...call me sceptical.

Vote remains. I doubt I'll move it this day phase, or that you'll last longer than that.

To answer your question, you'd have an added incentive to vote RachMarie and push a new mislynch option if your partner was one of the popular suspects (whereas otherwise, you might hop onto Nacho's or jason's wagons). It's not conclusive, since if you're partners with someone like Sotty, you have more leeway to vote creatively.

[Dazed and Confused]

EBWOP: Way to completely ruin the effect.

you seem to have missed that while trying to justify how scummy it is to

call someone scum

say someone is likely to accidentally hammer in a vacuum.

[Dazed and Confused]

This should count as a vote, you know. It's perfectly unambiguous.

Pfft, fine.

Unvote, vote: Whiskers

Still not so sure about Jason by the way.

[Dazed and Confused]

No need to be mean, Tierce.

I think my sadistic tendencies are rubbing off on her.

[Dazed and Confused]

Posting to say that I (Empire) won't be very active this weekend due to this fucking stupid application + work, and also, to say that Nacho should just bus Whiskers already so we can win the game, thanks in advance.

[Dazed and Confused]

Posting from my phone to mention that Nacho has basically stopped posting ever since we started piling on Whiskers.

[Dazed and Confused]

Just got back to a computer and I'm a little tipsy but I'll try my best to sound coherent here.

I'm gonna read the last couple of pages again and see if I get swayed by anything.

Ok so I feel like I owe you some sort of explanation as to why I'm super confident Whiskers is scum -- partly because I think you're town and your vote is important in getting my scumread lynched, partly because your post made me feel bad as it certainly wasn't my intention to shit on your thoughts re: this game.

My other head's already dug into the substance of his posts (I do want to emphasize that the posts really do come across like he doesn't give a fuck about Rach's motivations or genuinely scumhunting at all though), but I want to focus a bit more on their structure.

Pretentious Mafia Theory Disclaimer: I think focusing on the way posts are organized can be extremely important in forum mafia specifically. Given the immense amount of time people have to piece together their posts, they often pay far more attention to what they're saying than how they're saying it. While form should never take precedence over substance, I think you can figure out a lot about the poster's intentions based on the way they're organizing their thoughts. This is especially important when you consider the "stream of consciousness" style replace-in/catch-up style posts that people often like to write.

I put the phrase "stream of consciousness" in quotes because that's exactly what I think Whiskers' posts

aren't

. His replace-in posts are way too structured/organized + way too narrowly focused (e.g., almost exclusive attention to Rach) to be the product of a stream of consciousness, but at the same time, feel like they're trying really hard to come across that way. The random asides to other players in #275 feel wholly tangential, almost like he's trying to come off like he cares about other people's opinions or like he's not just having a one-track mind, a sentiment that is later betrayed by the later posts like #285. Basically, the whole thing feels really artificial and fake and scummy, not the product of a townie's natural borne thought processes.

I don't know if I sound like an idiot right now or if this is alcohol or if this makes sense to anyone but me, but yeah.

[Dazed and Confused]

I'll save the rest for either the graveyard or after the game, but for the record, although you say you didn't try to defend yourself from anything, the majority of what you've posted this game since people first started attacking you was self-defence, sarcastic comments, and "Why are you voting me when X is doing the same thing?" Rightly or wrongly, it did a lot to make us feel better about where our vote was sitting.

CES, as inevitable as this was looking, you could have shown us the courtesy of a warning before hammering.

Should I post my other thoughts before thread lock, y/n?

[Dazed and Confused]

Um, there was stuff I wanted to say about Nacho's catch-up post, but I have to go before the stores close. So just two quick points that were never answered:

Jason:

jason, are you saying that Sotty is town because she suspects you based on an actual case instead of your lack of activity?

You didn't respond to this, but I might as well come out with why this bugged the hell out of me: Sotty has been pretty much attacking you all game

solely

because you haven't been active. Didn't you just say that was her scum meta? Why are you suddenly clearing her for it?

Sotty:
Why did you feel the need to answer the above question before jason did? Also:

3) Why didn't you mention Sixty's reaction to jason's L-1 vote at the time, if it was a major factor in your jason town read? How does that even make any sense? (jason is town because you don't like a post Sixty made after his vote?)

You answered the first part (rushing to get this in before the lock, so not going to link it). But that still doesn't explain how Sixty's vote would remotely affect how you'd read jason.

I'm off, so if I die before I wake, good luck, town. And

please

don't be so overconfident that this game is as easy as you think it is. Nacho is suspicious for posting in every game except this one, and I don't have much confidence that Whiskers will flip scum right now, because he's reacting the way Thor did in ADwD, but I actually think CES's point in favour of a Josh/Nacho team is a point AGAINST them being partners (granted, calling Nacho and Sotty town isn't as strong a point ruling out Nacho as just calling Nacho town, but I still think weaker scum

hate

going on the record with a town read of a partner while doing nothing to actually

defend

him). Disclaimer: Empire (who is more articulate while drunk than I am sober) disagrees on this. Also, am I missing why Whiskers immediately answering for jason as his scumbuddy is a Nacho-buddy tell?)

Lastly, remind me to never, ever play another Mafia game again, at least until the

next

time I forget this promise and fuck up.

[Dazed and Confused]

VOTE: CES

We're policy-lynching you! Any objections to that?

[Dazed and Confused]

"Not ready to vote"?

Um...am I missing something?

[Dazed and Confused]

...you're not ready to vote?

But you're ready to vote Syryana?

Because...um....we can be scum?

[Dazed and Confused]

Are you saying that you'd be voting CES right now if it weren't for the fact that I just voted CES (as a "policy lynch") and Sixty died instead of Dazed and Confused last night? And you literally want to

lynch

our slot

solely

because of this fact? But you're voting Syryana instead?

I'd answer your meta question now, but I feel like I should confess that I'm not quite 100% sober right now, so I don't want to admit which head this is. ._____________.

[Dazed and Confused]

Maybe I should rephrase that.

Sotty, are you saying you'd be voting CES right now...if it weren't for the fact that Sixty died instead of us, and we're voting CES?

And you're saying you want to lynch us right now...even though...you're voting Syryana?

[Dazed and Confused]

Mind you, whoever is scum clearly thinks we're incompetent braindead morons for

not

having killed us last night even though we were more trusted than Sixty, so fuck you guys.

CES, admit it. That makes you scum, because you definitely don't think of me as a threat, right?

[Dazed and Confused]

I...didn't say I was drunk. I said I wasn't 100% sober. There's a

huge

difference. (Notice the lack of typos!) Personally, I think the Sixty kill was either role-hunting or the Mafia thinking we're incompetent and being assholes by killing the players they thought were more threatening, but anyway.

If I'm

Mina

, I'd say that I've never actually seen Empire play scum, but I know he's consistently told me how bad he is at it/how he completely loses motivation when he draws that role. If I'm

Empire

, I'd say that I'm terrible at scum...also, wow, I totally can't hold my liquor at all, and by the way, Mina is awesome and brilliant and totally better at this game than me.

But...I literally said the CES vote was a

policy lynch

. I don't get it. Why do you want to vote CES? Because we're voting him? In spite of the fact that we're voting him? I'm confused.

[Dazed and Confused]

You just literally said you wanted to lynch D&C. Pretty sure I'm not hallucinating that.

Why exactly has jason become town overnight?

[Dazed and Confused]

By the way, an answer to the posts we wrote before the threadlock would be nice.

[Dazed and Confused]

Sigh, Mina's been trolling.

Sotty, I hate being scum more than anyone else on this site (to give you some perspective, even more than Zach does) so I don't really do the whole "posting" thing when I'm mafia hence where the strong townreads from Sixty came from.

There are a number of theories I have right now as to why they did that I'm not really interested in sharing.

[Dazed and Confused]

Because Mina was pretending to be me while drunk

[Dazed and Confused]

I'M NOT DRUNK.

*cough*

[Dazed and Confused]

CES, assuming Whiskers had immediately gone, "I'm the cop," after FT's vote, you're saying you would have quickhammered him afterwards?

Also, did it occur to you that

other

people might not want to lynch him depending on his claim?

Syryana, welcome to the game. If you were scum, would you have killed CES last night? What if your buddy had pointed out the reasons that made him a bad nightkill--who would your next choice have been? (Also, not to turn this into MD, but why does being hard to read make you

more

likely to be nightkilled?)

Nacho, what do you think of CES? What do you think we should do with CES? (

Please

don't respond to this post by putting him at L-1, by the way.)

[Dazed and Confused]

Also, did it occur to you that

other

people might not want to lynch him depending on his claim?

This is an actual serious question, not just rhetorical whining.

jason, your turn: what do you think of CES? (You

sort

of ninja'd me, but I'd like more of a concrete answer. Do you suspect CES, and

why

?) What do you think we should do with CES? Policy lynch him?

Also, I'll look for quotes when I have more time, but I'm pretty sure the first negative thing Sotty said about you was that you were lurking.

[Dazed and Confused]

Mind you, whoever is scum clearly thinks we're incompetent braindead morons for

not

having killed us last night even though we were more trusted than Sixty, so fuck you guys.

CES, admit it. That makes you scum, because you definitely don't think of me as a threat, right?

Um.

Are you confessing?

[Dazed and Confused]

No, I cut myself off before that happened.

I think whatever your original joke was supposed to be flew over my head.

[Dazed and Confused]

UNVOTE: CES

[Dazed and Confused]

I also am considering a push at fourtrouble for his L-1 vote.

Considering

one? What's stopping you?

(Also, "push" is an odd choice of words.)

I see no town reasoning in CES actions both yesterday leading up to the hammer

Ah, so it's not just the hammer? It's stuff CES has done before the hammer?

And Nacho, step it up. I know you're capable of being very readable (well, granted, I think I've suspected you in every game I've played with you) and protown when you give a shit. But right now, I'm second-guessing everyone alive. You've basically done nothing to actually make me think that you're town beyond a couple of surface reasonable comments. Why were you posting in virtually every game but this one while Whiskers was being wagoned?

[Dazed and Confused]

This head (Empire) will be V/LA until the weekend due to a really awful exam I have on Thursday.

Random note: Should probably look over FT again since I feel like I've been underestimating him + the Sixty kill makes sense coming from scum-him.

[Dazed and Confused]

Sotty, I'll talk more about CES in a bit, but what do you think of this post? How does it fit into your theory about CES's stance on you and jason?

Sotty's town read of Jason muddies the waters quite a bit w.r.t what the scum team is (Syryana's last post isn't bad either), but it only makes this vote easier:

Vote: Nacho

Also, you should remove your vote for now if you want jason to follow you. He can't cast the L-1 vote!

[Dazed and Confused]

I have to admit, I like FT's 420, and Nacho's points on jason are actually quite strong.

Sotty, quick questions for you:

-Exactly what did I say between that post and CES saying that Sotty-Josh made sense that would sway him? When did I

ever

call a link between you two unlikely?
-Who do you think CES's partner is if he's scum?
-Which points in particular of Syryana's post did you agree with? Everything he said about CES? Specifics?
-I'm...um...really missing how that was testing the waters. At all. The answer I was hoping to see if you're town is, "Boy, that actually looks pretty town, the way he's approaching the game and ruled everyone out as suspects." And virtually everything he's said about you has actually been trying to get you to say something that would

disprove

this theory.

I told you to unvote just because jason has claimed the sole reason he hasn't voted CES was because it would put him at L-1. I unvoted partly to see what he'd do (apparently, the answer is nothing) and partly because of ~REASONS~.

CES, if you're around, quick questions for you, too (and now I can actually make you answer them because you don't have the town cred to be flippant anymore! MWAHAHAHAHA!):

-Why don't you think Sotty-scum/jason-town is possible?
-On D1, you said Nacho was the common link between {Nacho, jason} and {Nacho, Josh}. I asked why it couldn't be jason-Josh, and you answered for why Nacho and Josh were partners. But you never explained both 1) why a Nacho/jason link was likely and 2) why a Josh/jason link was unlikely. Also, why was Josh/Sotty unlikely for "obvious reasons"?
-Please walk me through what your stance on jason was throughout Day 1. Because it seemed all over the place, and it was hard to tell when you were being flippant and when you were joking.
-Details on what you like about Syryana's post?

[Dazed and Confused]

*sigh*

EBWOP (this is a trend):

-Exactly what did I say between that post and CES saying that

Sotty-Josh

Sotty-jason made sense that would sway him? When did I ever call a link between you two

unlikely

?

-Please walk me through what your stance on jason was throughout Day 1. Because it seemed all over the place, and it was hard to tell

when you were being flippant and

when you were joking and when you were seriously suspecting him.

[Dazed and Confused]

What did you expect him to do, it's CES? REASONS just makes me shake my head. I feel like you are just asking a billion questions and not actually drawing any conculsions from it. I don't even know why I just answered because you STILL didn't answer my question of why you spent the first few posts of this day getting me NOT to vote CES when your vote was on him. I'd love your scum reads right now or any kind of actual stance.

I meant I wanted to see what

jason

would do. He said the only reason he wasn't voting CES was that it'd put him at L-1, so I took away his reason for withholding his vote.

I'm bombarding people with questions because every time I'm on the verge of coming to a conclusion, something else sends me spiraling into paranoia, and I need to tie up

another

loose end.

As for "REASONS", now's as good a time as any to come clean. Part of why I've been so evasive was that I felt as though people were circling the CES bandwagon ever since I made that "We're policy-lynching you, CES!" comment, as though they were testing the waters. So I thought it'd be most informative if I kept quiet on what I

actually

thought.

Here's my stance, which you probably didn't see coming. As sad as this is for us to admit, CES...might...actually be our strongest living town read right now. *sobs* (This is hard for me to write. Every time I work up the courage to type the words, "CES is town," it's like a shockwave of paranoia overcomes my body and I hear an evil cackle thousands of miles away.)

Empire and I both noticed Whiskers' vanilla claim on D1 (as well as Whiskers' post-hammer softclaim, but anyway). To be honest, we probably wouldn't have believed a cop claim from Whiskers barring a sudden flash of towniness, although the strategic move might have been to leave him alive one more day. This meant the worst of both worlds: the motivations behind CES's hammer were irritatingly null, even though it had a disastrous antitown effect.

We were paranoid as hell, particularly since neither of us trusts our ability to read him, and figured it couldn't hurt to start the day off by calling for CES's policy lynch to see the reactions (for example, if he mentioned the softclaim). And then I stuck to the vote even when we started thinking he was town again, for the reasons I mentioned above.

I should really be studying, and of course, just writing this post has made me

more

paranoid that I'm wrong, but I'll try to explain where this read came from. It's part just intuition based on what CES has been saying/how he's been voting. But twinges of paranoia aside, we've been fine with him for most of this game, because he usually points out the same stuff we're seeing and played D1 as though he was actually honing in on who he thought was scum and looking at the big picture. And I did think the post I quoted from him looked very town (and Empire agrees with this). He doesn't

have

to go the extra mile of giving your jason read weight, and his narrowing it down to Nacho seems natural. You can argue that he then said, "Well, maybe it's you/jason," but I really think his thought process looked very organic, and I never overtly suggested there was a link.

Add to that his only scum motivation for quickhammering someone he's sure will claim vanilla is to mimic what he'd actually do as town, or possibly prevent people from changing their minds on Whiskers (a good move if he thinks he can get away with it, but one that

really

wasn't necessary), and that his hammer made sense given how convinced he seemed that he'd wrapped up the game. (That doesn't change that it was stupid and needlessly flashy for the sake of it, of course.)

As for reads/stances...that's the tough part. I feel like we've gone from having very clear reads to very murky ones. Empire actually wants to lynch

you

, believe it or not, or possibly Nacho. I suspect pretty much everyone to some extent, but personally feel like jason is the "safest" option. I'm really on the fence on you, because some things you've said this game seem unlikely to be fake (for example, being so thrown off by the Sixty kill). But I wasn't fond of your stance on Whiskers, and your attack on CES...well, it's really, REALLY bad. Suspecting him is fine, but the reasons you're giving for suspecting him feel completely stretched. For example, although I can understand having a

town

read on Syryana based on that big post, agreeing with his

reasoniny

is weird. CES didn't contribute on D1? You had CES as a town read for his play on D1, for crying out loud! And that's not even getting into the NK WIFOM (which is a lot more plausible for an inexperienced player than an experienced one).

Speaking of which, I'll give Syryana a more in-depth answer to his question later.

[Dazed and Confused]

Just got done with the exam, will catch up tomorrow.

[Dazed and Confused]

Sorry to be lame, but this is a rushed placeholder post as I run to work. I know there are a million things I need to respond to.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

It was honestly a coin toss between him and jason. More later.

(FWIW, since you brought it up, Sotty, I feel the same way about this statement:

Well, you do have that sort of self-satisfied, arrogant air of "I'm gonna win this for all of us" about you. Easy to get a false scumread from that, or at least pick the scum end of the WIFOM you give everyone to work with :p

[Dazed and Confused]

Going to a basketball game today, will post my thoughts tomorrow.

[Dazed and Confused]

HIBERNATION COMPLETE

ALL SYSTEMS CHARGED

SPAM MODE INITIATED

I may be regretting this hydra name. But I mean...considering we're already called

Dazed and Confused

, aren't we really already mocking ourselves? Why do the work of coming up with parody names that are more flattering than our actual ones?

[Dazed and Confused]

(preview edit: the references flew miles over my head)

Hydra dissonance alert: I voted Nacho mainly because Empire was leaning that way, and I don't trust my reads this game anymore. (There, now you can all keep making smug disparaging remarks about my play. I'd almost ruined it through my hard decisive stance-taking in the form of a vote on someone you totally never would have realized was on our suspect list otherwise!) Nacho/jason is...plausible if Rach was telling the truth about Nacho loving to bus, I guess, and it explains why Nacho seems so convinced that jason

deserves

to be lynched. But meh.

CES, talk to me about Nacho. Can you sell me on this lynch, or alternately, just explain what you see there? I'm looking for an epiphany on him. Your vote was on him since really early in the game, when virtually everything he'd posted was null, IMO. I'm rereading, and I kind of feel like the whole case on Nacho is just PoE and burden of proficiency/him not looking town

enough

. Empire thinks he's being lazy and not giving a shit, but I'm not sure I see anything I can confidently call scummy.

FT, I've got a really random question. What do you know about Josh's meta?

- I never explained those things because those weren't things I believed? Josh, Jason and Nacho all seemed suspicious to me but Josh's suspicion came for a not insignificant part from that "Nacho and Sotty are town but I can't point to any posts apparently that suggested the read" so {Nacho, jason} and {Nacho, josh} were the teams that felt right to me. Josh/Sotty was unlikely because 1) Sotty seemed town (*-*) and 2) he also did mention new stuff about Sotty when pressed; that didn't look like a partner interaction at all.\

Um, from page 2...

I may just be nitpicking over stupid stuff right now, but I'm missing something. You thought Josh was significantly less likely to be scum if Nacho wasn't scum? I'm not sure I see why, considering you suspected him before he did something that you thought was a Nacho buddy tell. And where does jason fit into this?

[Dazed and Confused]

Syryana, what made you go for jason in particular? He was ranked a lot lower than some other people on your suspect list. (And yes, I still need to answer your question, particularly since I've been pretty vague about you so far, but I'm lazy and easy posts come first.)

[Dazed and Confused]

Sotty confuses me, particularly since I townhunt more than scumhunt. She has some reactions that feel

really

town, but then her stances often strike me as off or bad. My impression was that her scumbag strength lay in sounding reasonable and pushing cases, not emoting and hitting the right notes. I don't know if you're

that

damn good.

Quote strip wall wheeeeeeeeeee!

You had CES as a town read for his play on D1, for crying out loud!

You might want to check this fact. I had CES as my weakest town read simply because he is CES. You even questioned me on this. This is like the second time in recent memory you have misrepp'ed me like this. The first was you saying I was suspicious of Jason all day one, when I actually called him town at first before slowly changing my mind and then again 180'ing today.

"Misrepp'd." That's a loaded term. Please don't beat around the bush. Do you suspect us, yes or no (or qualified maybe)?

I did remember, but it wasn't relevant to my point. What you're telling me is that he acted like

typical

CES (so nothing out of the ordinary at all) but you also agree with Syr's assessment of his play as fluffy non-contribution?

Also saying it's okay to have a town read on Syryana after his big post but then saying me agreeing with what he posting is scummy, in what backwards world does that make any sense? Either I liked the post and agreed with some points, or the points were bad and fluffy and my vote sticks?

Disagree completely. How else do you read players like Furcolow? Townies passionately argue illogical or absurd points all the time. This is what bugged me about Whiskers--I could buy FourTrouble being somewhat self-centered and accusing Rach of persecuting him, but not an impartial observer. Likewise, I can buy a newbie or someone from a site with a different meta honestly believing that CES's survival means he's scum. I wouldn't buy it from you.

You need to stop waffling and get your vote down, this time on an actual scum suspect. This voting CES to test the waters is really kinda shitty in such a small game like this. We don't have time for fancy plays like this and it was why I was so lost on why you didn't actually want me to vote CES with you. Maybe I ruined this "gambit" without realizing, but what were you hoping to get from it?

It's not like we went, "CES is town, but let's vote him for TEH RXS!" The policy-lynch suggestion was whimsical and fueled by paranoia, but would have been semi-serious if he'd

not

mentioned the VT claim. But I didn't actually have a stronger case than "He's CES and quickhammered the cop, so fuck it, let's just lynch the bastard!" Ever vote someone you're not convinced is scum just to feel him out?

When we changed our minds, I figured announcing it would be antitown. Part of it was wanting CES to feel like he was still under pressure

(it's not like he'd answer my questions otherwise)

, but I also thought the scum would swing for a CES mislynch with my and possibly Syr's votes assured. And people often take cues on what the "correct" position is from whatever's voiced most often in the thread, so I didn't want to bias their reactions. Total transparency is overrated. As for what I hoped to get out of it? Well, reactions like jason's...or, um, yours.

What about my Whiskers stance didn't you like? It was you who was trying to convince me to vote him yesterday because you thought I was town and the "wagon needed my support for a lynch" or something like that. Would you feel better if I started talking about how town I am in this game (which I am) and then just sheeped you without stopping to question anything?

That was Empire, but anyway. My problem is that you were very passive during his lynch, and didn't fight for one side or the other. Feels like how scum would play it, I guess. Also didn't like the wavering between "boy, this case is confusing and going waaay over my head"/"you're my soul mate, Whiskey-poo <3"/"sure, he's an okay lynch."

And that last line (along with the first paragraph of your post) is what I mean about reactions that seduce my inner

goddess*

townhunter. If it makes you feel better, I read your ISO in Shadow Hunters and whimpered. Tierce gets away with that because she's easier to read than you are, and she exacerbates this tenfold by having no confidence whatsoever in her scum game.

*I hope no one in the game gets this.

[Dazed and Confused]

Admit it, CES. You're only readable this game to lull me into a false sense of security the next time I play with you, right?

[Dazed and Confused]

Hey, Nacho:

I shall try... I am failing in all my games right now. :/ all my fuckin' pre-ins came up at once lately. I try catching up in one, I fall behind in another. URGH

it feels like my hands are tied with regards to you right now and I hate it.

Explain this.

I especially like your case.

Are you done catching up for today?

No, I just finished Page 8.

Why do you ask?

Doesn't matter for now.

And this.

[Dazed and Confused]

Sotty, I think continuing this won't be productive, but it seems like something keeps getting lost in the translation here.

I thought I'd already explained it, but yes, we literally

did

change our mind afterwards, although it was more because of our intuition/his behaviour than anything he said in his defence. (Call me gullible after the game if it turns out I'm wrong.) Here's another way of putting it:



Not perfectly to scale. Just imagine there's an actual label for when the vote happened, but it's buried underneath the scribbles of insanity. Kind of like my actual CES vote!

[Dazed and Confused]

Ok, so I've read through what I've missed and here's my thoughts on stuff (it probably comes across as disheveled, as you can see we're really living up to our name):

- The BoP attack on CES is really fucking dumb. The guy was far from a strong universal townread D1 and had just quickhammered someone who ended up being alive, of course he's going to live through the night. I'm not exactly great at reading him but a lot of his play here reminds me of stuff like Sherlock where he was just very (uncharacteristically) upfront with his thought process and I don't see him trying the whole vote Nacho + push the possibility of a Jason/Sotty team when it gets brought up. I think he'd take a much more conservative approach as scum that doesn't involve doing something he knows would draw a lot of negative attention to himself.

- I absolutely hate Jason's play this game. The dude's just generally been coasting and when he comes in to post, it's just lame posturing about CES's quickhammer. The line of posts starting with #403 where he just assumes scum motivation behind CES's quickhammer and then progression into questioning him about it in a very leading way in #406 really sucks too. That said, I could easily see him being town here given what little I know about his meta (will have to go through this again when I get some more time).

- I think FT and Syryana are both being severely underestimated. There are little things here and there that make me think they're a lot more competent than your average newbie (specifically, the level of detail involved in Syr's CES/FT case) and so I get the impression that I've been giving them too much of a free pass.

- I took a look at the Shadow Hunters II Micro a while back and Sotty seemed a lot more disinterested and "stuck on her scumreads" (to use her phrase) and I think it stands quite a bit in contrast with her play here where she's a lot more emotionally invested and more willing to step back and reconsider things. I'll check out some of her other games to be sure, though. I do want her to elaborate a bit more on the Jason read though (ongoing is not going to cut it here). I'm punting on her being town at the moment.

- I reread Nacho's ISO and it's still UGH...I think what differentiates him from Jason in my mind this game is that I have higher expectations for him and he's been completely lazy/disengaged here, there's none of the fire I've seen from him in any of the town games we've played together and I get the impression that his push on Jason is just him going after low hanging fruit. So yeah, vote sticks until I figure stuff out.

[Dazed and Confused]

Nacho, do you still think it's a Sotty-jason scumteam?

If you want me to be more interesting, then entertain me, give me a reason to be engaged. Otherwise I'm just dragging my feet until you guys make a strong push somewhere or suddenly realize "dismissing jason because it's jason is not good reasoning and hey he's actually scummy".

I don't want this to sound harsh, because I like you and respect you as a Mafia player, but we're here to find scum, not to keep you entertained. There's plenty of stuff to engage with if you try. (Alternately, don't sign up for additional games in the first place if you're in so many that you can't pretend to care about all of them). Did you read our posts before the last one? You'd see that you are actually our number one

barrier

to voting jason right now. If you got sucked into a black hole and removed from the game, or if you were mod-confirmed as town, our vote would be on jason. But you're here. So our vote is on you instead. How does that make you feel?

[Dazed and Confused]

What is FourTrouble to you, chopped liver?

Speaking of which, I'd also like an answer to this:

Jason, I thought 145 referred to a different game?

[Dazed and Confused]

Yea, it did, sorry.. still getting games mixed up (im in 2 with him) but still very unsettled by his L-1 vote.

Why are you unsettled by his vote? It seems like you haven't given any deeper analysis than "he cast the L-1 vote on a mislynch"! (That's not exactly a rare occurrence in Mafia.) What exactly is scummy about his vote in particular? Was Whiskers a bad target?

I was going to write off the game thing as an honest mistake, but the more I think about it, the more this is really something that shouldn't come from town (although after the Whiskers fiasco, I'm not ready to put

anything

past town). You just gave a made-up reason for why you suspect FT. If you're town, you shouldn't be going, "Look at this thing I said about FT early on D1! This proves that my stance on him is consistent." You should actually know in your head

what

behaviour of FT's is scummy.

Have you basically just admitted that your actual reasons for suspecting FT are fake?

Also, I'm confused by why you felt the need to announce that you'd be willing to "push" on FT, but then you decided to tell us that you were choosing CES over

Nacho

. Why was this a decision between CES and Nacho for you?

[Dazed and Confused]

FT, I've got a really random question. What do you know about Josh's meta?

A lot of lurking + him getting replaced out often.

Next question: how do you know this about his meta?

FT, what did/do you think of my hammer?

It didn't come as any surprise. I probably would have done the same if you had voted for Whiskers before me. Why did you say Syryana's 383 wasn't bad?

You'd have hammered Syryana immediately after if CES had cast an L-1 vote?

[Dazed and Confused]

jason, you still haven't explained why you used a post that wasn't even referring to this game as a reason for suspecting FT.

I don't want this to sound harsh, because I like you and respect you as a Mafia player, but we're here to find scum, not to keep you entertained. There's plenty of stuff to engage with if you try. (Alternately, don't sign up for additional games in the first place if you're in so many that you can't pretend to care about all of them). Did you read our posts before the last one? You'd see that you are actually our number one barrier to voting jason right now. If you got sucked into a black hole and removed from the game, or if you were mod-confirmed as town, our vote would be on jason. But you're here. So our vote is on you instead. How does that make you feel?

I didn't mean for it to come across that way. I do care about the game at the moment, but it's not important for me to engage CRISIS MODE right now, if that makes sense. I do plan on engaging Sotty after she follows up on her #476, but until then I have everything I need.

You're about to get lynched. How is that not crisis mode?

CES, thoughts on a Sotty-jason scumteam now?

*Mod Note: Quote Tag Fixed

[Dazed and Confused]

Hi, don't mind me. It's "bombard CES with paranoid questions" day again. I know this is irritating, but I'm pretty sure the game is won by process of elimination, and I'd really rather tie up all the loose ends:

1) What made you change your mind on Sotty?
2) So...way back on page 2 when you voted Nacho, what exactly made him suspicious?
3) ...why are you actually answering my questions this game?

[Dazed and Confused]

(fuck, you're not online anymore. I wanted to hear your answers before posting something.)

[Dazed and Confused]

FourTrouble, are you around? Thoughts on Syryana's explanation for his jason vote--does that make you more or less certain of your read? Anything else you're thinking about recent developments?

[Dazed and Confused]

Sorry, just got back from a trip. Won't be able to post until tomorrow (I haven't even read anything yet). Would've announced it but the thread opened while I was away.

CES, I just saw that this game just finished. It's FT's only completed scum game on the site and I suggest you take a look at it (haven't read it myself yet).

[Dazed and Confused]

Just a heads up, Mina's pretty busy this week so you'll be seeing less of her and more of me (yeah yeah I know it sucks to have to put up with me).

I read through the surprisingly little I've missed and all I got from it is that Syryana is really really weird (I don't know if scummy yet, Mina thinks his story's been changing a little too much to the point of making her uncomfortable). I need to plow through that FT scum game that just finished but that's going to have to wait 'til Wednesday most likely since I have class all day tomorrow.

Can someone run by me why Nacho wasn't bussing Jason? There are a few indicators in Nacho's ISO that still make me lean that way.

[Dazed and Confused]

The paranoia in me had Nacho trying to flip JasonScum so that he could lynch me the next day. But it's a small voice in the back of my head. I still very much think the choice is between Four and Syryana.

The problem is that Nacho's Jason vote came at a pretty suspicious time (e.g., when all eyes were on him) and there's a bunch of little posturing lines like this that make me think it comes from someone who knows Jason is scum.

[Dazed and Confused]

@Dazed, am I understanding your concern correctly? You're worried that Jason is scum because of Nacho bussing him for two days and the informed posts?

Yes. It's not like Nacho pushed really hard for a Jason lynch either.

Jason, you ever play with CES before?

[Dazed and Confused]

I would love for D+C to dump some knowledge in the game so we can move forward. Currently leaning Syryana.

Not much for me to say. I still think it's Jason. I didn't get a chance to speak with Mina about her Syryana suspicions before she had to go off and be busy but she's leaning that way too. FT is weird, I read through that scum game and he spent most of it tunneling Monkeyman and I could definitely see him doing something similar here with another weak scummy looking player in Rach but there are a few things that give me pause (like that self meta bit about bussing Nacho, which I kinda believe).

[Dazed and Confused]

And am I correct in understanding that if you had to pick a vote right now, you'd pick Jason?

Yes. (At least this head, anyway.)

If I'm remembering it right, my other head thought your hammer was weird and scummy, particularly because you spent a lot of that Day pushing a case on CES that relied in part on his quickhammer. My own worry about it is that the hammer was basically done as an appeal to FT, the guy you're now voting.

[Dazed and Confused]

Oh and Jason, if you've played with CES before then why exactly are you finding it scummy that he's dropping reasonless votes?

[Dazed and Confused]

What do you mean, an appeal to FT? Like, I hammered my partner to get FT to back off?

Well, it's more like, I don't really see why you had to go on and say direct "Let me dispel that notion" at him.

[Dazed and Confused]

I don't and I have not changed my mind. but since my other read is FT... well, you do the math.

My vote would be wasted on CES, since it does not seem a viable wagon today. So switching to my other scum read is what I shall do.

...uhh, Sotty/CES, are you really sure this dude is town?

[Dazed and Confused]

Going to grab some food and then type up a post that summarizes my thoughts on everyone alive.

[Dazed and Confused]

Just got back, here's where I stand on things right now. I'm not going to waste time talking about Sotty and CES since it should be relatively uncontroversial that they're town (silly people like Jason notwithstanding) so I'd like to spend most of this post talking about the others. This will probably sound scattered and stuff but *points to username*

Jason:

Ok so I really want to just trust Sotty here, I really do, but every time I read his ISO I throw up a little in my mouth and his interactions with Nacho suck. Nacho's initial vote for Jason comes in #154 at a time where he's drawn quite a bit of attention and the reasoning he attaches for the vote is kind of shitty. He doesn't actively pursue this vote at all during Day 1, just kind of apathetically parks it here while doing his whole disinterested active-lurking thing, directing a bunch of surface-probing stuff at other players for the rest of the Day but never returning to his Jason suspicions. Nacho's a

little

more involved in pushing Jason during Day 2, but it's still a pretty apathetic push and there's a bunch of little things that make me think he was bussing -- little posturing comments like #419 do seem to come from the perspective of someone who knows what Jason will flip. Strategically, it would also make sense to bus given the game state on Day 2 -- the cop had just been lynched, so he doesn't have to worry about being checked and having Jason come back scum would certainly give him enough towncred to survive over Syryana/FT/CES. And I still maintain the timing of his D1 vote was suspicious -- this is probably pretentious theory, but I think scum usually try to distance like that when there's a lot of heat put on them. There's really nothing to lose and a lot to gain -- get their partner lynched for towncred but also to position their partner for a solo victory if they ever get lynched themselves. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone but me, but yeah.

------> As far as Jason's own play goes, there's really a lot to dislike. He spent pretty much all of D1 coasting after his initial gambit and voting Josh. D2 followed much the same pattern except his return included lots of posturing about CES's quickhammer and a line of inquiry that doesn't feel at all like he's trying to figure out CES's alignment but is instead attacking him for something easy and mindless to get him strung up. He doesn't really seem to care much about Nacho's suspicions either, only really responds to him in #483 but the whole thing just feels fake. His whole argument against CES Today is patently ridiculous (the argument that an initial silent vote is somehow CES encouraging a quick lynch being the most laughable) especially given that he's played with CES a few times before so the unexplained votes shouldn't be any form of a scumtell. I know this guy usually looks scummy in just about every town game but I have such a hard time seeing him as town here. Can someone please tell me what I'm missing here?

FourTrouble:

Rereading him again, I can see the argument for him being scum. He's spent most of the game with an almost singular focus on the Rach/Syryana slot and there are some moments where it does feel like he's distancing Nacho (see: posts like #313). Something I noticed while reading that one scum game of his is that he does tend to be a lot tunnel-ier and uses a lot more hyperbolic language when pushing on people. His recent 180 shift from Syryana to Jason also does feel artificial and it comes out of nowhere and doesn't really seem supported by much of anything (by the way, Sotty, I completely disagree with you about that Syryana post being a bad one given that the question Syr asks is very much valid in my opinion). At the same time, though, there are some things that ring genuine to me -- particularly the bit in #111 about really wanting CES to be town because of his accuracy. The self meta bit about just straight up bussing Nacho for the towncred if he were scum also does feel somewhat townish given that strategically he does seem to play in that rather canned manner. Interaction-wise, Nacho doesn't really do a whole lot with this slot.

RachMarie/Syrana:

First, get the elephant in the room out of the way -- his whole "game plan" and explanation behind quick hammering Nacho on D2 is so ridiculous and farfetched that I'm actually having a hard time believing this is something semi-competent scum concocted. Now to talk about Rach -- she's one of those players who tends to look scummy usually but there are frankly a lot of things she's done that feels town. Her explanation for choosing Josh over Nacho is something that I agree with CES feels genuine (#80) and the kind of overeager meta speculation in #224 also feels townish. And unlike FT's switch, I do think his paranoia re: Jason is a bit more genuine. Need to talk to Mina about this though, since she did suspect him at the start of the Day but we've both been really busy and haven't gotten the chance to communicate. Interaction-wise, I don't really know if Nacho would go for the partner hard-defense here as I haven't fully explored his meta in that much detail (e.g., checking to see how he interacts with his partners) but my initial instinct tells me no.

So basically, right now I'm between Jason and FT with Jason currently in the lead for my vote.

[Dazed and Confused]

Anything to say in your defence, FourTrouble?

Sotty, basically, you don't think jason is town, just that he looks scummy regardless of his alignment?

[Dazed and Confused]

Sorry for not mentioning any of this two weeks ago, but I was busy and then found it hard to reengage again. jason, I still want a response to this.

Yea, it did, sorry.. still getting games mixed up (im in 2 with him) but still very unsettled by his L-1 vote.

Why are you unsettled by his vote? It seems like you haven't given any deeper analysis than "he cast the L-1 vote on a mislynch"! (That's not exactly a rare occurrence in Mafia.) What exactly is scummy about his vote in particular? Was Whiskers a bad target?

I was going to write off the game thing as an honest mistake, but the more I think about it, the more this is really something that shouldn't come from town (although after the Whiskers fiasco, I'm not ready to put

anything

past town). You just gave a made-up reason for why you suspect FT. If you're town, you shouldn't be going, "Look at this thing I said about FT early on D1! This proves that my stance on him is consistent." You should actually know in your head

what

behaviour of FT's is scummy.

Have you basically just admitted that your actual reasons for suspecting FT are fake?

Sotty, do you see anything town in his play this game? Any actual towntells other than be lazy in all his games? "Sometimes he looks really scummy as town" isn't enough.

Stuff on Syryana coming up, too.

[Dazed and Confused]

I don't relish Sixty's reaction to a FT scumflip, particularly after I was so

patronizing

about the read on D1. *wince*

FT, I take it you never did the meta research you said you'd do on Josh (or whoever it was) on D1?

Syryana, what I mainly have to say is that you confuse the hell out of me. I'd love to write you off as town (and I've been increasingly warming up to you today), because there are posts and reactions that sound really genuine, and you come across as though you're thinking a lot about things...but a couple of your stated motivations don't make sense and contradict each other.

Empire and I didn't talk that much earlier on, so I don't think I communicated my issues with Syryana well. Basically, it's that before the hammer on D2, our suspect pool was {Nacho, jason, FT}. Part of why I finally settled on you being town was because I'm a sucker and thought your whole explanation about reaction-testing jason looked unlikely to be fake.

Then you announced that that was actually a lie, and gave an explanation that actually sounded more implausible than the original.

I'm not sure what the scum motivation is for consistently changing your story (

maybe

setting up a Nacho hammer for towncred), but if you faked something like that, it makes me feel like you're being dishonest (and good at it), so I shouldn't trust the things you say.

This in particular bugs me:

After reading Jason's latest posts, I found little in them that made me want to change my vote: his analysis was poorly thought out and/or nonexistent, his reasoning behind why Sotty's change of heart about him is vague and unjustified, his responses to Nacho parroted me in places and were again vague. Jason has time and again evaded answering the most important question in this game: "Why?". I don't give a fat damn what Jason (or anyone else for that matter) thinks, I want to know why they think it. And Jason, moreso than anyone else in this game, has avoided answering that question.

Why did you mention Nacho then when you decided to vote for me?

Because he's wildly inconsistent and can't keep his scumlogic straight?

These do not sound like the posts of a townie who is absolutely convinced that jason is town for meta reasons, even one using reverse psychology to get Nacho lynched instead. Never mind that if your job was to scare people onto Nacho, why did you give a cover story of testing jason for reactions? You could have accomplished that better just by faking a scum read on him.

Also, exactly when did you read jason's meta? Can you give concrete examples of what in his scumplay made you so confident he's town? Why have you changed your mind since then?

Also also:

D+C - My towniest townread. They've been pretty obvtown the whole game, they've followed good lines of reasoning all game (well, minus a policy lynch on CES, that kinda backfired), and out of all their 100 posts I can't point to anything that would make me think they're scum.

This kind of raises my hackles, particularly since you actually HAVE pointed out something in this game that made you think we could be scum. It's too over-the-top.

(Lastly, I kind of agree with Sotty that the Amished tell post sounded forced.)

[Dazed and Confused]

I'm going to hammer this guy today unless someone disagrees. "why I think I'm town" indeed.

I don't know if Mina has anything else to say, but yeah sure go nuts. I'll be around later tonight to hammer if no one else has yet.